7: Your Pleasure, Your Power! ft. Ericka Hart

Summary

Unruly with Shelah Marie: Episode 7 - "Your Pleasure, Your Power!" Featuring Erica Hart

Release Date: November 19, 2024

In Episode 7 of Unruly with Shelah Marie, host Shelah Marie engages in a profound and candid conversation with Erica Hart, a black queer femme activist, sexuality educator, and breast cancer survivor. This episode delves deep into the intersections of sexual wellness, social justice, and personal healing, offering listeners insightful perspectives and practical tools to reclaim their pleasure and intimacy.

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Introduction: Setting the Stage for Sexual Wellness

00:01 - 01:24

Shelah Marie opens the episode by introducing Erica Hart, highlighting her multifaceted identity as a kinky poly cancer warrior and an educator committed to helping individuals reclaim their bodies and pleasure. She passionately emphasizes the importance of discussing sexual wellness, a topic she believes is often overlooked.

Shelah Marie (00:01): "Today we're diving into a topic that, in my opinion, doesn't nearly get enough attention, and that is sexual wellness."

Icebreaker: Dream Dinner Party

01:24 - 04:11

To warm up the conversation, Shelah poses a playful icebreaker to Erica. She asks who Erica would invite to a dream dinner party focused on sexual health and social justice. Erica’s choices reveal her deep connections to influential figures:

Erica Hart (02:17): "First and foremost, Whitney Houston, always. I don't even know if it makes any sense... Dr. Ruth just passed, and I want to have some conversations with her."

Shelah continues with a second icebreaker about designing a "Sex Ed for Grownups" curriculum. Erica responds by stressing the foundational importance of teaching consent beyond just sexual contexts, linking it to broader issues of bodily autonomy and systemic oppression.

Erica Hart (04:16): "The first mandatory lesson... would be a consent lesson... Consent isn't everything, it's about bodily autonomy in all aspects."

Exploring Intimacy: Innate vs. Learned Practice

07:22 - 09:49

Shelah transitions the discussion to intimacy, questioning whether it is an innate ability or something that needs to be learned. Erica argues convincingly that intimacy is indeed taught, using the example of her one-and-a-half-year-old child learning to express affection.

Erica Hart (07:29): "Intimacy, sharing, being vulnerable with people is something that really is taught."

Erica highlights societal tendencies to shy away from vulnerability and emphasizes the need to reconnect with others authentically.

Ericka’s Personal Journey: Topless Activism and Body Reclamation

09:49 - 18:10

Shelah references Erica's impactful article in Paper Magazine, which chronicles her decision to appear topless at Afropunk 2016 as a black woman with a double mastectomy. Erica shares the emotional and societal challenges that led to this powerful act of visibility and reclaiming her body.

Erica Hart (13:43): "This is why I'm topless... We are still sexual beings. We still desire pleasure and want to be desired."

She discusses the difficulties in finding representation of black breast cancer survivors and the hypersexualization of black bodies, which often leads to exclusion from narratives of vulnerability and healing.

Radical Sex Positivity: A Broader Perspective

19:06 - 32:48

Shelah asks Erica to elaborate on radical sex positivity, a concept Erica passionately defines as an intentional examination of how systemic oppressions like white supremacy, capitalism, and various forms of phobia hinder access to pleasure.

Erica Hart (19:21): "Radical sex positivity is not just being excited about everything under the pleasurable sun... it's about examining how systems of oppression prevent us from experiencing pleasure."

Shelah connects this to personal experiences of guilt associated with pleasure, notably among women, and Erica emphasizes the importance of autonomy and intentional pleasure as acts of self-love and resistance.

Kink, Polyamory, and Wellness

24:46 - 32:48

The conversation shifts to Erica's involvement with kink and polyamory, exploring how these practices have influenced her wellness journey. Erica describes participating in play parties as a means of reclaiming control and experiencing consensual pain, which contrasts her involuntary pain from medical treatments.

Erica Hart (26:15): "Participating in impact play post-diagnosis was like reclaiming the pain I had gone through. It was affirming to relinquish control in a consensual setting."

They discuss the significance of safe spaces for exploring sexual identity and the importance of consent within these communities.

Challenging Structural Oppressions Affecting Black Bodies and Intimacy

28:24 - 34:40

Shelah references Melissa V. Harris-Perry's "Sister Citizen Shame" and discusses how Erica's insights align with challenging overarching societal structures that impede black bodies' ability to experience intimacy and pleasure. Erica attributes white supremacy as the most significant barrier, linking it to environmental injustices like Flint’s water crisis and systemic issues in the prison-industrial complex.

Erica Hart (28:24): "White supremacy insists that white people are supreme and deserving, while black people are forced to fight for basic needs. This undermines our sense of worth and autonomy."

The Role of Pleasure in Black Wellness

34:40 - 37:10

Erica highlights the revolutionary nature of pleasure for black individuals, countering the societal narrative that black people must continuously work without respite. She frames pleasure as an essential aspect of health and resistance against dehumanizing systems.

Erica Hart (35:14): "Pleasure is such an assault to white supremacy as a black person, that is revolutionary."

Healing from Birth Trauma and Reconnecting with the Body

37:10 - 43:28

In a heartfelt exchange, Shelah and Erica discuss personal experiences with birth trauma and miscarriage. Erica shares her story of an emergency C-section, emphasizing the importance of self-compassion and listening to one’s body.

Erica Hart (43:28): "Having that experience post-breast cancer, I was in survival mode... It took me a long time to realize there was no one to blame. My body did not fail me."

They underscore the necessity of therapy and community support in healing from bodily trauma and reclaiming a positive relationship with one's body.

Debunking Myths: The Illusion of Virginity

45:16 - 46:19

Erica challenges the concept of virginity, explaining that it is a myth rooted in cisgender heterosexual patriarchy. She deconstructs the various misconceptions surrounding virginity and emphasizes bodily autonomy beyond traditional definitions.

Erica Hart (45:16): "Virginity is not real. It’s a myth rooted in cis patriarchy."

Encouraging Playfulness in Sexual Relationships

46:19 - 49:32

Shelah and Erica discuss the importance of incorporating play into sexual relationships as a path to healing and deeper connection. Erica introduces the idea of play parties, explaining their structure and the safe exploration they provide for couples and individuals.

Erica Hart (47:14): "Play party is key. There are different sections like spanking, wrestling, needle play... you can participate or just watch."

Shelah expresses her admiration and curiosity about these spaces, acknowledging the liberating potential of playful intimacy.

Toolkit for Unruliness: Practical Tools for Listeners

49:32 - 51:38

As the episode nears its end, Erica shares practical tools for listeners to incorporate into their personal journeys toward sexual liberation and wellness:

1. Undoing Internalized Oppressions: Actively work to dismantle personal biases such as anti-blackness, fatphobia, transphobia, and homophobia.
2. Sexual Self-Care: Encourage listeners to purchase lubricants and sex toys, advocating for self-pleasure as a form of empowerment.

Erica Hart (49:32): "Buy some lube and perhaps a magic wand and get to work... there are sex toys for just about everything."

Shelah expresses gratitude for Erica’s openness and the invaluable insights she provided, highlighting the episode's transformative potential for listeners.

Community Call-In Highlight: Aftercare and Emotional Safety

52:00 - End

In the community call-in segment, Shelah addresses a listener's question about providing aftercare during emotional releases and sharing sessions. She shares her "5-4-3-2-1" grounding technique to help regulate nervous systems and emphasizes the importance of accessible mental health support.

Shelah Marie (52:20): "5-4-3-2-1 involves engaging all five senses to bring oneself back to the present moment."

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Conclusion

Episode 7 of Unruly with Shelah Marie offers a rich tapestry of discussions surrounding sexual wellness, intimacy, and the broader societal structures that influence personal healing and pleasure. Through her conversation with Erica Hart, Shelah Marie provides listeners with both deep insights and actionable tools to embrace their unruliness, fostering a community grounded in self-love, acceptance, and holistic wellness.

Where to Follow Erica Hart:

• Instagram: @iheartericricka
• TikTok: @iheartericricka
• Website: ihearica.com
• Podcast: Hood Rat to Head Rap (Hosted with her partner)

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For more transformative conversations and practical wellness tools, subscribe to Unruly with Shelah Marie on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Sheila Marie]

Welcome to Unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for black women, and the founder of the curvy curly conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who are all navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Unruly, where we have raw, real conversations about self love, wellness and growth. But make it fun. Today we're diving into a topic that, in my opinion, doesn't nearly get enough attention, and that is sexual wellness. I am so excited to have the incredible Erica Hart with us today. And if you don't know Erica, they are a black queer femme activist, a sexuality educator, and a breast cancer survivor who's passionate about helping people reclaim their bodies and their pleasure. A kinky poly cancer warrior, an educator like me, Erica believes in the power of vulnerability and reclaiming space for ourselves. We are going to talk about rediscovering pleasure, intimacy, and everything in between. Okay, I'm ready to get into it because I'm excited. I got questions I feel like just for me. Okay. Welcome to the stage, Erica Hart.

[Erica Hart]

I'm so excited to be here.

[Sheila Marie]

I'm so excited. Oh, thank you for agreeing. I was so happy when you agreed. I was like, oh, my God.

[Erica Hart]

Were texting, and I was like, yes. The answer is 100% yes. Congratulations on your podcast.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, thank you. There's enough people with microphones now that I'm like, we need to. I just wanted to have some different conversations. I see a lot of conversations, and I just want to have different ones. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. I need to remind myself of this often. I want to start on a little bit of a fun note, so I want to do, like, okay, breaker. So I feel like in many ways, you're at the intersection of sexual health and social justice. So if you could have a dream dinner party with any historical figures there, dead or alive, who would be at this dinner party and, oh, my goodness. Talking sexual health and social.

[Erica Hart]

Oh, my goodness. First and foremost, Whitney Houston, always. I don't even know if it makes any sense. I just want to go to dinner with Whitney Houston. Dr. Ruth just passed, and I want to have some conversations with her. Who else?

[Sheila Marie]

I mean, you're on a good start already. Whitney Houston and Dr. Ruth. That's a good start.

[Erica Hart]

Dr. Ruth and Whitney Houston. I feel like. I feel like those are the only people I really want to talk to. To kind of figure out, is Whitney.

[Sheila Marie]

Just talking or is Whitney, like, also singing?

[Erica Hart]

I mean, if Whitney would sing at the dinner, that would be great, But I feel like.

[Sheila Marie]

But I wouldn't want to talk to.

[Erica Hart]

Me because, you know, Whitney was, to some of our understanding was closeted. So I would love to talk to you. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

[Sheila Marie]

Hold on. Wait one second. This is my first time.

[Erica Hart]

Robin wrote. Mm. Mm.

[Sheila Marie]

I have never heard that. So what was she. What were they saying was going on? Wake it up. Wake it up. Wake that up.

[Erica Hart]

We don't know from Whitney's mouth. So that's what I would sit and talk to Whitney about and just be like, it's okay, you know? And then Dr. Ruth. Dr. Ruth was problematic. It was, like, a bit of a hot mess. But still, we have to give her her credit when credit is due. Like, as somebody who was, like, huge in the sex ed world, just to sit and talk to her about just a bit about her background. Yeah. I think that's where I feel like the dinner party with those two would be enough.

[Sheila Marie]

It would be very entertaining, for sure. Okay, one more icebreaker question. So if you could design a curriculum that every adult would have to take, and it's called Sex Ed for Grownups.

[Erica Hart]

Ooh.

[Sheila Marie]

What is one lesson that would have to be mandatory in that curriculum?

[Erica Hart]

Oh, one mandatory lesson. The first thing that came to mind was a consent lesson. And I think with consent, you can really touch on a lot of different things. But I think people think about consent only when we think about sexual instances. But consent is actually in everything. So really, having adults understand bodily autonomy for themselves especially, but how that relates to. To race and gender, sexuality, religion, even. So many of us have been taught that our body belongs to other people, that it doesn't belong to ourselves, and that is a bodily autonomy conversation. Right. Like, people want to bring up bodily autonomy when they talk about abortion, but we're not necessarily talking about bodily autonomy. When we're talking about conflicts like Palestinian, Israeli conflict, we're not talking about the lack of bodily autonomy that Palestinians are given. So the consent conversation could go lots of different directions. And I think it misses the mark just focusing on sex, because consent isn't everything.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, that made me that I never really thought about consent in that way. Thank you. It made me think about how when they. There's this talk of the loneliness epidemic with men, I feel like what is implied is that they're owed women's bodies and they're not getting it. So, like, poor them.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

And it's like, no, sir. Like, this is. This is our bodies. We can choose to opt out. We can choose however we want to engage. So, absolutely.

[Erica Hart]

That's so fun. I know nothing about that conversation. And I'm like, okay, I need to go read. Like, what? You're lonely?

[Sheila Marie]

You might be better off not knowing anything about that conversation. Yes. Conversation is like, I have even shied away. Like, I admire you so much for being able to talk through really difficult, complex topics on Instagram, because I feel like Instagram is not a place for discussion. Or I, like, to this point, there are some things I just simply will not talk about outside of my story because I just don't feel like engaging with the vitriol. And it's like, who am I talking to here? I'm just screaming into a void of.

[Erica Hart]

You know, yeah, the critical thinking is gone. And that's the scary part. It's like, that's the thing. You don't know who you're talking to. So sometimes people are like, well, these are your followers. It's like, it doesn't matter. My page is public. So literally anybody can come and engage in this conversation.

[Sheila Marie]

So I don't. And the way the algorithms work now is you're pushed to more people that are not out, you know, are outside of your. So I'm like, it's a lot.

[Erica Hart]

It's a lot.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, it is.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, so back to our podcast episode. So we're talking about. I'm trying to make a segue here. We're talk. You know, the podcast episode is rediscovering intimacy, not discovering intimacy. And I want to know from your perspective, do you think intimacy is something that we innately all know how to practice or engage in, or is this something that needs to be learned and taught?

[Erica Hart]

I think, you know, I have a one and a half year old essentially, and watching.

[Sheila Marie]

Thank you.

[Erica Hart]

Thank you. Watching him, I would say that intimacy is absolutely taught. Like, if a friend of his comes over, I will say, hey, you can hug your friend, you know, to say hi or give them a high five or whatever, or give them a kiss. So I think without that, I don't know that my kid would innately go and do that. Right. I think we hug them and we show them affection, but they literally are lizard brain. Like, they don't know anything but food. Change my diaper and even change my diaper is. Is arguable if they even want that. Right? Like, give me food, give me attention, play with me. But I Feel like intimacy, sharing, being vulnerable with people is something that really is taught and I think you model it for your kids, like to be. To talk to kids about sharing your emotions. Right. Especially little boys. Right. So many little boys are taught to be strong and to provide, but never taught to be vulnerable, never taught to express their feelings. So then we have a whole, I don't know, articles about men being lonely, right? And it does. Does men being lonely, is it correlate to them not being expressive in their emotions and people are not interested in being with them? I don't know. But I do think that we are as a society shying away from vulnerability and connection and community as a way to, like, armor ourselves. Like, there's a lot going on in the world and I think social media does not help in keeping us away from each other. So, yeah, I think it is 100% taught. And I think it has to be a rediscovery of intimacies as well. Of like, how do I connect with the people in my life? How do I connect with the people in my neighborhood or just people walking down the street, right? How do I have those connections? And also that they're consensual, right? Like, that they're not just, I'm doing this so I make the connection, right. If somebody else is not interested in that, then. Then that's not what we're going to do. We're not going to force vulnerability and.

[Sheila Marie]

We'Re going to bulldoze our way. Right? This is true. I read an article you did in Paper magazine and I want to read like, one of the quotes that was like, in the very beginning of the article, the author said, In 2014, the Queer Sex educator and writer was diagnosed with bilateral breast cancer at 28 years old, which led to her double mastectomy and a pair of inevitable scars. She kept them hidden even in locker rooms before mustering the confidence to attend AFROPUNK 2016 completely topless. A brave move that empowered her to make black femme cancer survivors more visible and valued in culture today. Can you talk to us a little bit about the steps that led you to that decision at Afropunk?

[Erica Hart]

Yeah. I was noticing my mom died from breast cancer when I was 13. And I thought, you know, I mean, I'm devastated. But then as I got older, the advocacy that I would see around breast cancer was always white, middle aged, maybe middle class, has three kids, a minivan and lives in the suburbs. Type of always a woman, right? With breast cancer. And when I was diagnosed, it was the same. I Mean, I was diagnosed some, you know, 20 years later, but it's the same, same sort of advocacy. So I started talking like, I want to see more black people and black survivors in the media, right? Like, forward facing. Not just one, but a bunch. And when I even searched for pictures for my double mastectomy because I wanted to see what scars would look like on me, on somebody that looked like me, skin, complexion, like me. My plastic surgeon searched for like two weeks and she can only find one image. And then when I search Google, I got Angelina Jolie, who is not black, who also has never had breast cancer. She had a preventative double mastectomy, which is fine, but it's just not the same. And there just weren't many pictures. Like, most of them were 3D sketches of a double mastectomy, but it wasn't like, here's a double mastectomy on black skin. So I was like, you know, at people at music festivals, they're pretty naked and sometimes they go topless. I loved Afropunk. At a point in my life, I would go every single year. I even went one year when I.

[Sheila Marie]

Was on Love of Afro Punk.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah. When I was on chemotherapy, I went and I was like, really? I'm going to return the next year. And I think I might go topless, like, when I'm here. So that year comes around and it's like the day of Afropunk. And my friend was like, are you gonna go topless? And I was like, nah, I'm probably not gonna do it. But I wore like a headscarf around my, like, chest. And we biked over to Afropunk. And she was like, are you gonna do it? I was like, nah, it's cool. It was just like. I was like, it's fine. It was just a thought. I don't think I'm gonna do it. And then a presumable black cis man, black cisgender man walked by me and he was topless. And I was like, oh, I have to do it now. So I just took my scarf off and I just stood there and we just started walking around. And people were like, what happened to you? You know, like, what happened to your scarf? Or what happened to your chest? Which was so. Was so heartbreaking, honestly, that people didn't know what this looked like. And then there were some people who thanked me who thought that I was brave. But I would say the resounding message was that people didn't know what it looked like. And I thought, well, this is the reason why I'm Topless. Right. And then it's.

[Sheila Marie]

You are the first black woman I've ever seen.

[Erica Hart]

I'm sorry.

[Sheila Marie]

So. No, I'm saying you're the first black woman I've ever seen with a mastectomy.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And because it's just people are not talking about this. They're not showing. There's somebody on. There's probably many people on Tick Tock, but there's a few people on TikTok that are topless and they're also white. And they have thousands and thousands of views. And whenever I post my pictures, they immediately get taken down. So it's again, that hyper sexualization of black bodies relating to us. Like, our bodies need to be put away. So it started to morph into more than just advocacy and being seen, but it was also like, I don't want you just to see me as inspiration. I also want you to desire me. You know, I've never seen a person with a double mastectomy in a sex scene. Right. These are things that I want. I want to see in the world. Right. We are still sexual beings. We still desire of pleasure, want to be desired. And people just relating to us as inspiration is. Can be dehumanizing, honestly. Right. Like, I want you to. To. Can I curse on here?

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah.

[Erica Hart]

I want to fuck. Like, I don't necessarily just want to be like, oh, my God, you're an inspiration. Like, nah, I want you to be like, you're hot.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes. Desire is so real. When you. So when you were diagnosed with breast cancer and, like, throughout your treatment, did that, like, challenge your relationship to your own body?

[Erica Hart]

Yes and no. I think more so. I was just in survival mode. Like, I kind of just shut down and just was focused on how do I get through this chemo session? How do I not throw up? What am I going to be able to eat? Because I couldn't eat anything. All I could stomach really was, like, white rice. And I would drink, like, a gallon of water after chemotherapy to, like, flush it out. But I also was rushing to work. I was trying to stay awake at my desk. I was working full time, so there's no time to think, like, what's my relationship to my body? Like, literally, I just was like, what's. How do I get through the next day? Like, I wasn't thinking about my body in an aesthetic way at all. It was more. So what is my relationship to my body that I feel like I have to. That I have to work myself into the ground in order to survive. Right. What is the impact that that is going to have on my body just not. You know what I mean? Like, kind of like a bit of a deeper conversation came of that much later than I rarely thought about the aesthetic. Like, I remember my. My plastic surgeon was asking me if I wanted nipples. And I just played with all the, like, silicone nipples every time that I went. Like, I didn't care. I just, like, I want to survive. How am I going to pay for this? And what am I going to eat? Like, basic needs.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. And so did you. Is this. So what you did at Afropunk? Would that be defined as topless activism?

[Erica Hart]

That's what I call it.

[Sheila Marie]

Because that's what you call. Okay. All right. I just wanted to make sure.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

And now. And now it makes sense.

[Erica Hart]

Perfect.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah. So, like, I feel like you must have a whole new perspective about your body post recovery and everything. Yeah. And do I. And I know from. I know from what you share that you're very mindful and active about being connected to your body. So, like, what forms of self expression when it comes to your body, like, help you feel rooted and reconnected? Like maybe a movement or a style of dance. But what, like, reminds you to be connected to your actual physical body?

[Erica Hart]

Honestly, I feel like masturbation is a big place for me to be connected to my body. You know what I mean?

[Sheila Marie]

Like, love it.

[Erica Hart]

Sure, going out to dance is great, like, but I feel like getting naked and pleasuring yourself in a way that feels good for you and no one else is paying attention, or maybe somebody is watching. But either way, I think it's best when nobody is around. Has been some of the, like, most profoundly intimate moments with myself and was for me, a way for me to connect to myself better or in a new way. Because when you're on chemo, what they don't talk about or what's rarely talked about is how your libido will drop mostly from fatigue, but also from the trauma of being diagnosed. Also, there's vaginal dryness because of chemotherapy. Chemotherapy rips all of the good cells out of your body and in addition to the bad cells. So your body is in literally panic mode. So there isn't any. Any other good stuff happening. So to return to my body in that way intentionally, to be able to extend experience, pleasure on my terms, was profoundly necessary to my healing in every way.

[Sheila Marie]

Wow. My mind is just like. I feel like the neurons are going off everywhere. You speak a lot about radical sex positivity. Can you break that down for listeners who Might not know what that is. Like, what does that mean to you, and why is it important?

[Erica Hart]

Sure. For me, radical sex positivity is not just being excited about everything under the pleasurable sun or everything under. Being excited about everything anybody is doing in regards to sex, but it is an intentional place to really look inward at where you may have some undoing to do in terms of systems of oppression that keep all of us from experiencing pleasure. So how is white supremacy showing up in your life, right? Whether it be capitalism, anti blackness, fatphobia, homophobia, transphobia, you know, et cetera, at all, right? How does that show up for you? And how does that impact your access to pleasure? Right now we are witnessing so many atrocities across the planet. One in particular in Appalachia because of Hurricane Helena, right? Like all of that devastation, those folks are fighting for their basic needs. And there's also a pleasure conversation in that of, like, how do you have access to pleasure when everything that you're familiar with has been ruined? Right? Well, I think sometimes people, when I say radical sex positivity, I'm not just talking about, like, the act of sex. I'm talking about pleasure in everything. Like when you're thirsty and you have a glass of water that is incredibly pleasurable, right? If it's cold or if it has a little bit of ice in it, or maybe it's room temperature, right? But if you're not able to have water when you need it, what then does that do to your body? What conversations do you begin to have? I'm not worthy of having what I need. My body is not worthy. I have to fight for what I need. What is the impact of systems of oppression on our bodies is essentially where I come from in terms of radical sex positivity.

[Sheila Marie]

I feel like this is connected to the masturbation answer in a certain way for women. Like, with purity culture and so many women. I mean, I work with so many women, and a lot of times we've taught masturbation and manifestation and masturbation as a. A tool for your own personal liberation. And so many women will be like, oh, no, I don't do that. I don't do that. I don't do that. And like framing pleasure and orgasm as something that is only in the hands of a man to give to you as opposed to something that you can conjure up for yourself. And I find, like, for my own personal d. Like unlearning, that's been. I love masturbation, too, as just a personal sight for me to know that I can make myself good. I can. If I'm stressed, I can calm myself down, whatever it may be. But getting that power back and switching gears a little bit, I actually want to touch back on consent that you mentioned at the beginning. And I've always thought about consent in terms of boundaries, but I've never thought about consent as a pathway to deeper pleasure. Can you talk a little bit? I'm asking for myself. I'm not asking for a friend.

[Erica Hart]

I'm asking for me. I mean, to know that your body belongs to you and that your no matters is so incredibly powerful in a world where, especially as black femmes, we have been conditioned to believe that we are just supposed to say yes to everything. We're supposed to say yes to people touching our hair. We're supposed to say yes to people commenting on our body. We're supposed to smile and agree at people thinking that we're attractive. Whatever it might be. Being able to have the autonomy to say no is so revolutionary for a black femme who we're always regarded as angry. The moment that we step into a room, we can be smiling. It doesn't matter. And we are angry. But if we start to say no to things absolutely, like, are we even going to get opportunities? Are we going to be invited back into the space? So knowing that you have the power to say no and you have the power to honor your body in whatever way feels good to you, not to the person that is perhaps your partner or the person you're on a date with, but that you get to choose what feels good and what you need on your terms makes any sort of pleasurable experience even more intentional and desirable. 100%.

[Sheila Marie]

That's funny, because now that. Now that you described it like that, I'm thinking about the no that we can learn from children because they say.

[Erica Hart]

No all the time.

[Sheila Marie]

All the time. No, no, no. They very much can speak that no. And I feel like, especially for women, are socialized to say no less as we get older. Like, that's not nice. Be a good girl. And so that's. Again, my neurons are firing and wiring together. I want to ask a little bit about kink and polyamory. How does your work with kink and polyamory influence your broader perspective of wellness?

[Erica Hart]

Well, I would say another act that really got me back into my body was kink. I've always been someone that liked spanking and impact play. So any sort of hitting, whether it be with a hand or with a.

[Sheila Marie]

See, I'd be on the fence about that. I like feeling Some type of way. When I see the. Like, when I see people with whips, I be feeling some type of way. Like, I just.

[Erica Hart]

Have you seen a black person with a whip, though?

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, actually. Yes, I have. It was very sexy.

[Erica Hart]

See? See, I feel like that's the thing. I don't get wife with white people ever. That's my rule. Like, I'm like, no, I'm not doing any. Nothing. No. But seeing black people with a whip, I'm like, oh, my God. Okay, let me get in front of your wig. You're right.

[Sheila Marie]

I love it. Every time I see a clip of somebody, like, I guess, like, conference. I don't know what it's called, but I see them all the time. I'm like, oh, my gosh, that looks amazing.

[Erica Hart]

Yes.

[Sheila Marie]

Where do I sign up? But I'm also too shy to be in front of people. Yeah. Like, I got invited a few times, and I was like, oh, I don't know. Yeah, I'm like, I'm scared, sure. But it seems so freeing. So wait, do you draw the line at race play?

[Erica Hart]

Oh, 100%. I will never do race.

[Sheila Marie]

I, like, don't want to kink shame, but every time that comes up, I'm like, no.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah. And I don't want to kink shame either, but no, no, I'm not doing race. Okay.

[Sheila Marie]

All right.

[Erica Hart]

I know people that have and they feel affirmed in that, but I. That's not for me.

[Sheila Marie]

I don't know why. Yes. No. Well, I'm glad we agree on that. Yes.

[Erica Hart]

But it's so. But it was so freeing to participate in impact play post diagnosis, post surgeries, post chemotherapy, because I was able to have intentional pain, like, pain on my terms, like the doctors, and consensual pain. Yes, I consented. I signed on the dotted line to have surgery, to have chemo, all that stuff. But it's like, it's not really my consent because I don't really feel like.

[Sheila Marie]

Because what's your other choice?

[Erica Hart]

Right. But, like, I want you to hit me. So it felt like. It felt like an act of, like, reclaiming the pain that I have gone through. And it was so, so, so, so, so affirming to also have somebody else in the sub, which is the person that is receiving the pain. It felt good to kind of relinquish control because so much of that experience was, okay, let me call insurance. Let me get to work. Let me handle this. Let me pay this medical bill. So to just be held and taken care of in that way. Like, I'm Gonna spank you until you. You're ready to tell me no. I'm like, okay, great.

[Sheila Marie]

Yes, please. I love it. Sounds like a good time. One thing I really love about you is how much you're able to, like, comment on larger structures that affect our individual experiences. And I really relate to that because, like, in my book, I reference Melissa V. Harris Perry. She has a book called Sister Citizen Shame Stereotypes of black Woman. And she lays out that crooked room metaphor, like, alluding to black woman being born into this crooked room in a crooked world and always fighting to stand upright. And, like, the crookedness are all these outside structures that affect our ability or inability to self actualize. And I'm in the self development space, and I hear a lot of talk about individual healing, individual accountability, but not so much about the larger structures. So what, like, overarching messages do you think that are most harmful when it comes to black bodies and intimacy?

[Erica Hart]

Oh, my gosh. All of them.

[Sheila Marie]

I know.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah, all of them. All of them. Every single one. Absolutely, positively all of them. But I think white supremacy is our biggest, you know, impact to our bodies because white supremacy insist that white people are supreme, that they're all knowing that they are the only people who are deserving of having their basic needs met. And that everybody else is supposed to just fight to have that. Everybody else is supposed to sort of come up in competition with white people. And white people can ordain or not if black people are worthy of having water. Right. I mean, we see in Flint, Michigan, like, there's still not clean water. Right. And it's no coincidence that that is a predominantly black area. So again, if you're unable to get something as basic as water, Right. What does that do to your body and to how you relate to yourself? If everybody around you, including yourself, is black, what then are the conversations that you start to have about your blackness? Is it that you don't, as a black person, you don't deserve, but the white people who are, I don't know, 2, 4, 20 miles away from Flint are deserving. Are they better? Are they smarter? What are the things we start to make up? And that's the evil of white supremacy, that it would have us convinced that there's something wrong with us and not something wrong with the fact. Not something wrong with the system that created this mess and continues to.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, so if you had a magic wand and you could give sexual liberation to all black bodies. Done. Done. What would that look like?

[Erica Hart]

Oh, it would look like.

[Sheila Marie]

Or what does a sexually liberated black body look like.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah, it would look like the end of prisons. Prison abolition, 100%. Just the state. The fact that we are in a police state and so many black people are locked up on just the silliest of charges. Right. And locked away forever. That is such an anti black white supremacist space that just needs to go away. The continuation of slavery. So magic wand, boom. Like, talk about lack of consent within prison. Boom. No more prisons. It would be. We would be more in community. There would be accountability. People would be honest about the things, the harms that they caused. People would say sorry. Right. And not just like in intimate, like, romantic relationships, but like parent to child apologies. So much, you know, pain to be held and healed. And just hearing sorry from someone that has harmed you, there's so much pleasure in that. More folks experiencing kink. More folks experiencing pleasure on their terms. Masturbating, not waiting for somebody to come and give them pleasure, but having it on their terms. Honoring sex workers. I mean, the list goes on. I have, like, if the magic wand would be like, okay, here we go.

[Sheila Marie]

Right. I want to live there for those who are listening. And. And most people are listening. Yeah. We only. Everybody's listening. I feel like my head is gonna roll off my shoulders because I'm just nodding so much in agreement. And my. It's like my brain is trying to make this connection, but it's not all the way complete. But what I love that you're doing is every time I ask a specific question about sex and pleasure, you widen it out. And I just love you because it's almost like every time you offer me a reframe. Well, it's not just about this small area of intimacy with sex. It's about actually these larger ideas of framework or something. My brain hasn't completed the thought, but I am loving this.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah. I think we just think that systems of oppression operate separately from our sex life, and they don't. Right. Like, they are playing a role on how we relate to our bodies, how we show up in a bedroom, period. Right. Like I mentioned prisons because we live in a place, one of the largest countries in the world, that has one of the largest police systems in the world. Right. That is a direct impact on consent. Right. The fact that there are so many people locked away for just literally for nothing, simply because they're black. Right. What then does that do to a conversation of consent? The fact that so much sexual violence happens in prisons. Right. That we relate to people who are incarcerated as not having any rights at all or not Even being human, what does that do in a conversation around consent? When we talk about consent, are we even considering people who are incarcerated? So who is deserving of bodily autonomy and who is not? That is a conversation that we are in in this country all the time. So I think we have to really be honest about that. There's a reason why there are so many trans, black, trans women who are murdered across this country in large, massive numbers. And it's rarely, if ever, talked about because some people are deserving of bodily autonomy and some people are not. Right? So, again, we have to make these. In my humble opinion, we have to make these conversations bigger because there's so many people who are impacted. And I think if we think about the folks who are the most marginalized, everybody else gets taken care of.

[Sheila Marie]

Mm. Oh, wow. Erica, you. You're. You. You speak in such a dense way. I love it. Like, you don't. You're very economical. You don't waste words. Like, you put it all in there. Pack it together. It's like, wow. I feel like I'm just sitting here getting a lesson. I want to know, what do you think about pleasure? Like, what role does pleasure play in wellness in a larger way for black folks? Why is pleasure important? I mean, and you've touched on this a little bit, but I just wanted to give it a moment.

[Erica Hart]

For so long, black people have. We have related to ourselves as like, mules, almost like folks that just have to work and work and work in order to be seen as valuable, in order to be seen as honorable, worthy of life. And pleasure is. There's rest embedded in pleasure. There's joy embedded in pleasure. And so much of the world says that we are undeserving of anything like that we are just supposed to work and work and work and work and then die, right? And then sometimes we work and work and work and die, not even on our own terms. So pleasure is such an assault to white supremacy as a black person, that is revolutionary. When we sit still, when we daydream, when we masturbate, when we consensually enjoy each other, when we engage in kink and play parties. Pleasure is so important to a black person, and it must be. And I think we need the reminder that it is important to us, because I think a lot of times we feel guilty. And when I say, I think I know as a black person, I feel guilty for laying on the couch and watching True Crime, right? I feel guilty for even sitting still and not working, right? It is so challenging for me not to Work. And I have to, I have to divorce myself from that because at the end of the day, we are going to die. So it's. I have to take in the moment that's here and what is most pleasurable to me in this moment. Is it tending to my plants or is it writing this email, probably doing my plans. Right. And then what is it going to require for me to get up and be with my plants rather than feel the guilt of not getting to that email right away?

[Sheila Marie]

Wow, that's so funny because that's something I would actually do. Like, I'm just overwhelmed with this. I'm just going to go repot a plant or something.

[Erica Hart]

Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

And I, I think even I do still. Even though I've done this work on deconstructing myself, I live in the world and I still find it hard to relax. Relax. Or I still have to undo this link between pleasure and like earning it, you know?

[Erica Hart]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sheila Marie]

Do something hard and then you get something good.

[Erica Hart]

If I send these five emails, then I can go repot a plan.

[Sheila Marie]

Exactly. Exactly. I am on my. First of all, I love you. Watching you with your baby.

[Erica Hart]

Oh, thank you. Your family with your babies. They're so cute. You're.

[Sheila Marie]

I love it.

[Erica Hart]

You're such a good stepparent. Like, I love them.

[Sheila Marie]

You're so. They give me life.

[Erica Hart]

I think a lot of people have step parent traumas, so seeing you, like, wonderful, like, is really, really healing, honestly.

[Sheila Marie]

Thank you. Thank you for acknowledging that. I honestly, I don't know what it is. I don't know, but I just, I love, like, my bonus daughter lives with me now. With us. With us. And I love, I love having her here. I look forward to when she comes home. And it's funny because I'm even starting to research how to have conversations about consent and stuff like that with her because she's a teenager now. And I tried to do the YouTube video about the consent and teach. Yeah. So I started there because I don't want to overstep her parents, but I just, you know, I know she's, she's curious, you know, So I. It's just such a beautiful healing moment for me because I feel like in a certain way it's reparenting myself as well.

[Erica Hart]

That's amazing.

[Sheila Marie]

But speaking of, of kids, I'm actually on my own fertility journey as well. And. Thank you. Thank you. So I. I've had a series of miscarriages. Okay. And I'm sorry. Which is fine. It's okay. Thank you. And after. I don't know about you. So this. This is a question for survivors of trauma. But after, man, I felt so out of tune with my body. Like, I was like, girl, I can't even trust you. Like, you don't do what I want no more. Like, what's good. I thought we were friends. I thought I was taking good care of you. I'm supposed to be. I'm the spiritual one. I do my meditations. I drink my green juice. It's like, not me, right? So I felt, like, almost mad at my body for a long time. And it really took me work and intentionality to get back in a good relationship with my own body. So I was wondering, what would your advice be for someone who's experienced trauma, whatever that may be with their body, and they're trying to rediscover their desires and intimacy and what feels good to them, where would they start?

[Erica Hart]

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I also have birth trauma. I have. My kid was in the NICU for 31 days. I had. Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry.

[Sheila Marie]

Did you have to do an emergency?

[Erica Hart]

I had an emergency. I had an emergency C section. My best friend said, I know I have preeclampsia. So I went to the doctor. I same with my best friend from upstate New York. I was in labor driving, and I just was like, I'm fine, but my hands and my feet and my face was all swollen. But I was like, this is normal pregnancy stuff. And my partner was like, are you first of all sure that you want to drive? And second of all, are you sure you're okay? I'm like, I'm fine. And I literally went to the doctor the next day, and it was my breast cancer, my oncologist. And she was like, everything looks good, but your blood pressure does not. My blood pressure was 171 over 90 or something like that, or over 100. And I was like, but I feel fine. And she was like, you have to go to the emergency room right now. And literally, that oncologist saved my life. Because if I never went to that appointment, if I skipped it, I don't know that I would be here today or east my kid. So having that experience post breast cancer, I was in so many conversations of my body has failed me again. Right. Like, before I was diagnosed, I was going to yoga. I was biking from Queens all the way to the Upper east side. I was drinking green juice. I was drinking. I was eating salads. Like, I was doing. I don't do drugs really, like, ever I don't really drink either. Like, I just was like, I don't understand how this is happening to me. The thing that has healed me the most is, is there's no one to blame. There's literally no one to blame. You did not do anything wrong. Your body is doing what it's doing, and it's kept you here for the time that it's kept you here. And it's important to honor the work that it has done and the signals that you have gotten to take care of it differently. Right. I didn't know that my blood pressure was high. And I also was working constantly through my pregnancy, right?

[Sheila Marie]

Trying.

[Erica Hart]

I'm a freelancer, trying to prepare for this kid to be here. How is he gonna eat? Da, da, da. All these things. But it's like my body was telling me, lay down, rest, rest. So another lesson is, am I listening to my body, right? Or am I ignoring it to be a part of this capitalistic machine? Right. But at the end of the day, whether I'm a part of the capitalistic machine or if I'm resting, my body is not to blame. It did not fail me. And I feel like I needed my therapist to tell me that 1 million times. And still to this day, I'll be like, wait, was it because I had popcorn? Was it because I had Coca Cola? Was it because all of these. It's like, no. Like, east was ready to come out. Your body was done being pregnant, and that's the end of it. All the other stories I can make up about it is not helping me. Right? It's not helping anything. Right? East is here. You're healthy. He's healthy. We live. Right? But it took me a long, long time to get there. And God bless therapy. Seriously.

[Sheila Marie]

Hello.

[Erica Hart]

If it wasn't for my therapist, I don't know what. I don't know if I would be telling you this today.

[Sheila Marie]

Yeah, it's. Yes, it's so important. I love what you said about that. It's. There's no like. This makes me think of. There's a content creator. I think it's Donnell Wright. And he did this really beautiful post where he broke down. He was breaking down how? Like Christianity, the link of black Christianity and suffering. And sometimes he's like, sometimes suffering just happens. There doesn't need to be a reason for it. Like, you don't. It's not a noble thing. You don't get a prize at the end of the day for suffering. And I love that you said that because I think my brain was Looking for a reason. And I. And the reason was always blaming myself. Like, it would come back, well, if you did this better. Well, if you did this. Well, if you did this. And even though conceiving a child takes two people, I noticed my husband never did that to himself. It was just me, like, what did I do wrong? If I did this? If I did this. And it's like, now I'm at a place where the more I talk to so many women now who have stories, like, for example, my best friend went through literally the same story as you. She was pregnant, and I think she was like 30 something weeks. And she was in a movie and she was like, I don't know, I feel fine. But her friend was like, your feet are swollen. You need to go to the hospital. Rush to the hospital. And she would have died. They were like, you would have died. Emergency cesarean. And now, thankfully, her and the baby are thriving and fine. But this stuff happens. And the more we talk about it, the trauma happens to women. The more we can talk about it, the less we feel like it's some individual thing that just happened to me, like, and find a reason. I feel like the self blame doesn't really help. Doesn't really help you to get through it. All right, so if you could debunk one myth about sexual pleasure and intimacy, what would you love to debunk once and for all? Done.

[Erica Hart]

So many. But one that comes to mind is that virginity is a myth.

[Sheila Marie]

Oh, tell us more.

[Erica Hart]

Oh, wake it up. Virginity.

[Sheila Marie]

Hold on now.

[Erica Hart]

Virginity is not real. You're hymen can break that little thin layer in the front of your vaginal canal. It can break at any moment. It could break with you walking, putting on a pair of jeans. It could break. They always use the example of horseback riding. But how many of us are horseback riding? Horseback riding. Shout out to the horseback riders. Gymnastics, right? Like, it can break in so many different ways. And also that the notion of virginity is rooted in CIS patriarchy. So cisgender heterosexual patriarchy, where the only way that you can now relate to yourself as someone who has had sex is if you've been penetrated by a penis. Right. But there are people who have no interest in being with a penis. Right. Does that mean that they're forever virgins? No. Virginity is a myth.

[Sheila Marie]

Ooh, mic drop. Okay, I want to end on a little playful note, is when it comes to being like playful in sex, I'm a big advocate of play. I've tried. I feel like it's hard. I feel like A lot of my community isn't so receptive to play because we're so conditioned to work that playing feels like I don't have time to play. I have things to do. But I think there's so much healing that comes from play when we just have fun, feel good, do things that we like. But what's your favorite way to encourage couples or individuals to break out of their routine when it comes to sex and invite more play? I'm also asking for my. For my sex.

[Erica Hart]

I feel like one would definitely be to go to a play party together.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, wait, what's a play? What's a play party?

[Erica Hart]

Play party is king. So every.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay, what happens? Break it down.

[Erica Hart]

What happens is that there'll be different like sections where someone will be with a flogger. So like the whip, if you will, someone will be flogging people, someone will be spanking. There'll be a section where you can wrestle. There'll be a section where there's needle play if you're into that. Whoa. Yeah. But it's all sectioned off where you can walk around just as a spectator. Right? Just as a voyeur and watch those things. You don't have to participate. And I think that that's cool for couples who are like, okay, let's go experience something that maybe we've never experienced before and expand our horizons. And then you get all of these different ideas. Or there's a conversation that could be had from the experience. But you go into these spaces obviously not laughing at people, not pointing like, you just watch and you're respectful when you join in if you want to. But there's usually like a dom who is leading that particular section and you would be a part of that person, their play if you want it to be.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. One follow up question. How do. How would someone find one? Like how someone's like, I guess there's.

[Erica Hart]

A bunch of different sites. FetLife is. Okay. Like it's. That's pretty much the oldest site where you can find play parties. I think Field is a dating site that would also sometimes has play parties on it. But FetLife is usually like the most. But I feel like with Instagram there's likely like groups and things that you can search. But if you start to talk to people, some of the most people that you assume are vanilla are going to play parties.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay.

[Erica Hart]

So just ask your friends, ask around, ask their friends and somebody will know when the next one is.

[Sheila Marie]

Perfect. Okay.

[Erica Hart]

Woo.

[Sheila Marie]

We did a lot today. G. Okay, now for the toolkit okay. Because the best way to be unruly is to practice it. Faith without works is dead. So we like to walk away with a little tool that they can take with them and put in their unruly toolkit that relates to what we're talking about today. So could you share anything for our listeners, Erica?

[Erica Hart]

Sure. A tool, a tool, a tool, a tool. One tool we've already talked about, which is undoing your own anti blackness, your own fat phobia, transphobia, homophobia. That'd be one tool. And another tool is to buy some lube and perhaps a magic wand and get to work or whatever toy feels good for you. A lot of people have resistance to sex toys, and I just do not think that you should. There's sex toys for just about everything. Butt play, kink, playing with your clit, like whatever it might be. Go get yourself a new toy. And lube counts as a sex toy. So go, go get it. Add it to your toolbox.

[Sheila Marie]

Go, go, go, go. You gotta get to work. I got homework, y'all. I gotta go. But thank you, Erica. This is amazing. I just thank you for just sharing, being so open, being so vulnerable, bringing your wealth of knowledge. I admire you. Thank you personally, professionally, and beyond. It's just inspiring to hear how you've used your own life lessons and you try to share them for the general good too, because it's hard to share on Instagram sometimes, like especially with very niche topics. So I really admire you.

[Erica Hart]

Thank you.

[Sheila Marie]

And Erica, where can people find.

[Erica Hart]

Oh, thank you so much, so much. And honor.

[Sheila Marie]

Where can people find you? What are you up to? What? What? Leave us with a little where people can follow us. Yeah.

[Erica Hart]

So I'm currently writing a book about everything that we talked about and it'll be out next year, so that's exciting. I was actually editing all before this interview. And then I also have a podcast, hood Rat to head rap with my partner. We talk about everything under the sun is called a decolonized podcast. And you can find me on Instagram at I heart Erica. I H A R T E R I C K A tick tock. But I'm. Don't I really be just fooling around on there.

[Sheila Marie]

Me too.

[Erica Hart]

Same name on there. And then my website is the same. Ihearica.com awesome.

[Sheila Marie]

Okay. Thank you so much, Erica, for joining us. All right. That was such a powerful conversation, wasn't it? I know. So let's dive into one of my favorite parts of the show. This is the unruly community call in section. And I Love this part because I love hearing from you. So let's dive right into today's question.

[Erica Hart]

When you are curating these spaces and encouraging any of these emotional releases and the sharing, how do you provide aftercare to ensure that people have a safe space to come down and possibly talk about the things they've learned about themselves?

[Sheila Marie]

I think this is such a great question because aftercare is so important. Here's what I do on my end. As a facilitator, I'm interested in regulating their nervous systems to bring them back to some type of homeostasis. And this little activity can soothe your alarmed limbic system and reconnect you to the present moment if any triggers have arrived. And I also think this is a great toolkit tool that you can take with you and use however you like. So we call it 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And I just hold out my hand like I'm making a five or a high five. And I start with the five. What is something I can smell? Okay, that's my sense of smell. Okay. I can smell incense in the room. Next. 4. What is something that I can see? Okay. I can see walls. I can see lighting fixtures. All right. 3. What is something I can taste? I can taste. I had gum in my mouth. I can still taste the flavor of the gum. Okay. Two, what is something that I can hear? If I'm quiet, I can hear my AC running in the background. And one, what is something I can touch? Well, I can touch. I can feel my dress on my body, on my skin. So you just go through the five senses and it brings you back to the present moment pretty quickly. Another thing that I do that is not facilitated by me is I always have a mental health professional available either virtually or in person to care for any woman in a clinical way that I'm not able to facilitate. To in. To care for any women in a clinical way in some way that I'm not able to facilitate. Thank you so much for sending that in. And to the rest of the unruly community, if you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, just send in a voice [e-mail] unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never, ever, ever, ever miss an episode of unruly.