← UNRULY WITH SHELAH MARIE
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- [00:00]
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- [01:41]
Sheila Marie
Welcome to Unruly. I'm your host, Sheila Marie. I'm an author, a fierce advocate for Black women, and the founder of the curvy Curly conscious movement. In this space, I'm sharing what I've learned on my own journey while sitting down with some amazing women who are all navigating their own paths to healing. Because there's no better time than now to get a little unruly. Hi, welcome back. It's Sheila Marie here with another episode of Unruly where we dive into the messiness of self love transformation and just all the wellness things. Today is more about. Well, it's about food, but a little bit more than food. Okay. It's about being intentional with what we eat, how we prepare it, and even how we think about it. We're joined by an incredible guest, Menle Gokai Agri. Did I get it correct?
- [02:32]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yes, you did. Thank you for asking.
- [02:33]
Sheila Marie
Okay, thank you. I practiced. She's a true pioneer in the cannabis and food industries who has spent over 16 years. Yes, 16. Advocating for sustainability, social equity and mindful consumption. Menle is also the author of the Art of Weed Butter, a book that not only offers delicious cannabis infused recipes, but also encourages us to think about our food on a deeper level. Menle, welcome to Unruly.
- [03:04]
Menle Gokai Agri
Oh, my goodness. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
- [03:08]
Sheila Marie
Me too. I am so, so. I cannot wait to get into your work because I feel like this is, you know, usually I feel like I have guests that I have like a little bit of a grasp on what they do, and I know this. I'm like, wow, I'm a newborn. I'm a baby. So I'm going to be asking you all the questions. I first want to start off with a little icebreaker. Little fun. Little fun questions, if that's okay.
- [03:30]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yeah.
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Sheila Marie
All right, so if you could recreate any childhood dish from your childhood and make it cannabis infused, which dish would you make and why?
- [03:41]
Menle Gokai Agri
Okay, this is a good one. This is hard. You know, I think this speaks to a lot and the reason why I'm choosing it speaks to a lot. But back in the day, my mom used to make rice and what was it like, Spam on those?
- [04:01]
Sheila Marie
Really? So good.
- [04:02]
Menle Gokai Agri
On those, like, quick days where you're a single mom, you're trying to put something on table, like everybody wants a snack. I don't know where they came from. They smell like outside. And there's something about having that with. Yeah, with. With herb, maybe infused, like with the rice, some sort of like coconut oil. And then you can kind of fry the Spam. I haven't eaten spam in maybe 20 years, but for some reason when you asked me that, it just, it came to mind.
- [04:30]
Sheila Marie
Like, I feel that now my outlook on Spam is different because I'm older and I'm like, oh, is it healthy? Is it not? But baby, you can't tell me nothing about Spam. Like, I had Spam fried rice. It was so good. It's a saltiness, you know, and, yeah, I think that's a comfort food. Mine, if I would create one, would be like, did you ever eat those kid cuisine meals?
- [04:50]
Nunu
Yes.
- [04:51]
Menle Gokai Agri
Not that often. Right.
- [04:52]
Sheila Marie
But at other people's houses, they were terrible. But as a kid, they were so good. Like, if I could recreate a cannabis infused kid cuisine. But that's actually good, like a really good One just because it has like all these little elements. You get the little brownie, you know, or whatever thing. Girl, we don't know what that was. That was like the type of food they give astronauts. When I think about it now, like, what was that? But it was so good to me and. Okay, one more. One more icebreaker.
- [05:19]
Menle Gokai Agri
Okay.
- [05:19]
Sheila Marie
If you could travel to any food moment in history, whether if it's like a specific meal or event, where would you go and what would you eat?
- [05:29]
Menle Gokai Agri
Wow, these are good a food. I love that. I would say something that took place maybe during the Harlem Renaissance, maybe like an after party pre party where there's food and like a big decadent spread. You know, there's jazz in the background, there's lots of cute dresses, there's silk presses. It's like, there's all the vibes. I just imagine that being so good and so thoughtfully crafted and, you know, presented. I can just imagine that being a very, very delicious gathering. Yeah.
- [06:09]
Sheila Marie
And just full of all the best vibes.
- [06:12]
Menle Gokai Agri
Right.
- [06:12]
Sheila Marie
I think. I don't even know why I would have never isolated that time period. But there's just something about the world being extremely oppressive and then oppressed peoples finding their own freedom, their own outlets of joy, like, and just in this underground. And like you said, the dresses, the fashions, honey, we. You know, the three pieces, I don't even know how many pieces, but the suits were there and everybody was looking gorgeous. So. Yes. Okay, let's talk about cannabis, because that's pretty much your specialty, right? And you've had such a long career in cannabis and food. And I want to know what was like, your. The initial spark that led you to this line of work.
- [06:54]
Menle Gokai Agri
I think it comes into sort of various different spaces, but the spark came from this really deep curiosity about how food and I think herb intersect with culture and wellness. Growing up, I was really fascinated in the sort of, like, wellness environmental practices. My mom still makes fun of me for being a hotep hippie from back in the day.
- [07:22]
Sheila Marie
I was about to ask you if you got it from her, you know.
- [07:25]
Menle Gokai Agri
No, not at all. There were definitely moments, I think. And as I reflect in hindsight as an adult, her being first gen. Well, no, her being an immigrant from West Africa and having these sort of indigenous ancestral practices that she didn't, you know, she wasn't trying to flex and say she was being an environmentalist or like, I am from indigenous culture. I think she just embodied that. And maybe in a lot of ways, I did pick up from it. But when I was more self righteous in my like hippie hotep era, you know, 18, 19.
- [08:01]
Sheila Marie
I think we've been there. We've all been there.
- [08:03]
Menle Gokai Agri
Right?
- [08:03]
Sheila Marie
We've all been there.
- [08:04]
Menle Gokai Agri
Okay, good.
- [08:05]
Sheila Marie
I went through it too. Yep.
- [08:07]
Menle Gokai Agri
I think it's a beautiful thing and it helps us sort of. It's a part of a journey, I think, that brings you to who you are. Right. Whatever that looks like. But specifically, I think when it comes to herb, it was, I think, where again, those intersections helped me want to explore more about my own culture and more about, I think, the sort of larger African diaspora when it comes to weed, when it comes to wellness, when it comes to food ways. And that just felt necessary and it felt like a calling. It's rare that I say that, but I think that was that spark that sort of brought all those things together.
- [08:54]
Sheila Marie
Wow. You know, the cannabis industry is interesting. When I think about the cannabis industry, that's why I'm so. I love when I hear black and brown people in the industry, especially black women, because when I think of the cannabis industry, I think about all the black and brown bodies that were given like decades long prison sentences for growing, having, distributing cannabis. And then I especially think of them now when I see non black people like Seth Rogen or others that that could come in the industry now that it's legalized in certain areas and immediately capitalize off of the same industry that jailed so many black and brown people. And so I think you can't talk about the cannabis industry as a black woman without talking about social equity, unfortunately. So what's one thing about the cannabis industry that most people just don't realize when it comes to social equity?
- [09:50]
Menle Gokai Agri
There's a lot. But I think one of the sort of misconceptions is that if somebody's even mentioning it, that it's already gone through the legal components and processes to actually take place for that said black or brown person on the other side. Especially when I think about California, one of the first states, maybe the third, I think Massachusetts and then obviously Colorado. But they really unfortunately miss a lot of opportunities. I think when it does come to social equity and when it does come to capital, you know, for black and brown people who have been previously incarcerated, for those who just don't have the capital, you see that a lot in I think a lot of the ways. There's some reports that came out a couple of years ago where the LAPD ended up receiving a lot of the tax funds from cannabis legalization.
- [10:52]
Sheila Marie
Whoa.
- [10:53]
Menle Gokai Agri
Right. That going into, you know, what a Lot of people were trying to sort of deconstruct and dismantle in terms of their power financially within the system. But what I will say is something that might be unknown and maybe a more positive outlook is that New York and a lot of the lawmakers there, a lot of the advocates, policymakers, really made sure that equity was in place and made sense and was actually walking the walk, so to speak. Right. Everything was written in law before they started opening up dispensaries, before they started sort of allocating all of the different economical like aspects when it comes to taxes and when it comes to, you know, who gets what in the cannabis space. And I really do applaud what New York has done specifically when it comes to that. So. So that is two parallel things. I think that maybe some people just don't know or there's a misconception surrounding that equity sort of play.
- [12:01]
Sheila Marie
Yeah. Yes. I think. I'm glad to hear you mention that strides are being made because I'm not in the industry, but I just think it's an extension of all other industries in the United States. I'm happy to hear that. Speaking of representation, I can only imagine that representation is extremely important in this space where I feel like, am I right in saying that black women are very much a minority in the cannabis space?
- [12:28]
Menle Gokai Agri
Absolutely, you're right. You're spot on. I think last time there was any sort of statistical gathering of information, it's about 0.5% black women. I think anywhere from one to two black folks in general, men, women, non binary people. It's low, it's small, it's minute. And yet maybe that goes along with what your question was before. I think there's this misconception that there's just like, oh, there's so many of us and we're kumaya ing together and you know, we're all connected on social media. But I think that's because there's such a small group of us that it feels more impactful and larger when we kind of do come together and do the work. It's small.
- [13:15]
Sheila Marie
It's, yeah, how can we better support black women that are in the cannabis industry?
- [13:21]
Menle Gokai Agri
I think there's the obvious. Buying black, buying black femme. There are so many. There's one thing, maybe there's more that came from 2020. But I say this in a sort of jaded way because I think a lot of us have felt this like backlash from all of the listening and learning that people outside of black culture did to, to sort of support black People. But I will say that there are so many different lists and articles and sort of like, gatherings where you can easily be able to look up, you know, black farmers, black femme farmers who are, you know, growing herbs from seed to plant. People who are in the skin care sort of like wellness space when it comes to that. Also, I think on the other end, again, when it comes to advocacy, when it comes to lawmakers, policymakers, just supporting, you know, obviously not all skin folk are kin folk, but I think there is, you know, and it's not to cause further divide, because I think that's also an issue. But it's just.
- [14:28]
Sheila Marie
But we're calling the thing a thing. Beloved.
- [14:29]
Menle Gokai Agri
Thank you.
- [14:30]
Sheila Marie
Because in the words of Ayana, it's true.
- [14:35]
Menle Gokai Agri
But, you know, if you do want to support, you know, that black woman, that body, that entity. Yes. Searching specifically for that, I think has become a lot easier. And again, it's just way more impactful to do.
- [14:50]
Sheila Marie
Okay, I want to ask a question about cooking for a second. I want to get into your bag, because I know your bag is your chef bag. Let's start from the top. What is a common misconception about cooking with cannabis that you just wish more people understood?
- [15:06]
Menle Gokai Agri
Oh, this is such a. Such an important question. This is so good. I think the common misconception and the common reality for a lot of people who first eat an edible is that it's too strong. They get up. Oh, can I say, okay, girl?
- [15:22]
Sheila Marie
Yeah.
- [15:22]
Menle Gokai Agri
They get tore up. They. They black out. You know, they feel uncomfortable in their bodies. And I think for a lot of people, it's made them adverse to wanting to eat anything that's infused with cannabis. But that had a lot to do with the people who were cooking with it. A lot of times they just didn't have proper ways to measure. They didn't really care. They just wanted to put, you know, as much in it as possible. And I think less is so much more when it comes to cooking with. With food. Cooking with food. When it comes to infusing cannabis into cuisine, I'm a huge advocate for very small, low doses, because if you're there to eat, you want to eat, right? Like, you want to be able to enjoy the food and still feel that, you know, fun, sort of loose, you know, I don't know, wavy vibe, but still be in control of your body, still have agency over your thoughts, the conversation, you know, your night. And so I think a lot of people do have that misconception of it always being really strong, you know, hella just Strong in terms of the dosage, but that's not always the case. And I think once you start to experiment with what works for your body, you can kind of call out, okay, what's that? Milligram. I can only do 2 milligrams. Or I could do 10, you know, from going to bed. And it's, you know, it's that knowledge that sort of listening to your body and knowing what works.
- [16:53]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, I. You're speaking directly to the choir.
- [16:56]
Menle Gokai Agri
Okay, good.
- [16:57]
Sheila Marie
Wait, is that the right phrase? Yes. Yeah. I went to one of my friends, like, hired a chef to do like a cannabis infused dinner for us, and I just literally went to sleep. I don't even think I finished my food. Like, I was just like. And I was like, what fun is that? I'm like, I don't like this. This is just like, I'm just so tired I can't do anything. I'm like, guys, I'll see you later. So I think I see what you're saying. Like, maybe we didn't approach it in the most mindful way. It was more like we were just trying to catch a vibe. Which leads me. Go ahead.
- [17:28]
Menle Gokai Agri
There's nothing wrong with that. I do think that there is a time and place to eat something, to pass out or to like, consume herb, to go to bed, but I hear you. There is. When I have a dinner party or when I invite people to consume anything I've sort of infused, I want them to be able to even smoke a joint. I want people to dance, I want people to listen to music and like, you know, have deep conversations with the people that are across from you rather than sort of just zoning out. And so there's a time and place for everything. But, yeah.
- [17:59]
Sheila Marie
Yes, I. So I mean, I agree with you. And I think the difference was I was just engaging in a recreational sense. It wasn't necessarily a mindful approach. But I'm curious because I would want to learn more about this. How do you think cannabis consumption changes when people approach it in a mindful way versus a recreational way? And we're also. Guys, if you're listening. This is no judgment. I'm not saying either way is better or worse. I just wanted to get her expert opinion on what changes with each approach.
- [18:31]
Menle Gokai Agri
I come from the place of always being a lightweight with everything, when it comes to alcohol, when it comes to herbs, mushrooms, you name it. People, I don't know, I just, I take it slowly. And so that's always kind of been, maybe even my, like, embedded philosophy of how I consume anything. But what I will say after the past, like, four or five years of being a little bit more engaged with meditation, it being a very big practice in my life, I have recognized that that has spilled into my mindfulness when it comes to consumption. And I say that because it just gives me pause whenever I feel something, I am feeling an effect. It kind of helps me to slow time and think about it in a way where I can kind of engage with it differently the next time. What I mean by that is, for example, if I've made an edible or if I've made some sort of treat for myself, and let's say it's 5 milligrams. And two weeks ago, 5 milligrams was fine for me, but the body I brought to the table this time, it just was too much. And I felt that because maybe I felt dizzy or I got, like, a little paranoid or I started, you know, spiraling about something, or I couldn't, you know, edit something in a way that felt like I needed to. I would take note of that and maybe even write it down somewhere and kind of be able to go back and say, okay, you know, no shade or judgment on myself or anybody else. But this is something that next time I want to do less of, or next time, maybe I'll just wait for, you know, the evening when I feel like I can be able to really absorb all of the, like, the waviness next time. I think it also helps me recognize when I turn to herb as a distraction, when I turn to it as a way to sort of deflect from something that I really want to think about in a. In a clearer head, in a clearer space. Like you said, there's no. I don't think there's any judgment. And I kind of have a hard time even believing that recreational and medicinal are separate at times, I think.
- [20:59]
Sheila Marie
Interesting, right?
- [21:01]
Menle Gokai Agri
I think sometimes.
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Sheila Marie
Right. Because couldn't the recreational be medicinal?
- [21:05]
Menle Gokai Agri
Exactly. And I think we have such a deep knowledge in our own bodies that tell us what we need and what we want. Deciphering that is different. Right. Because I think that's where the mindfulness comes in. It's like, okay, am I doing this because I just want to distract myself or something? Or am I doing this because I've had a really hard day, and I've had a hard time thinking deeply about a situation, a person, a relationship or whatever, and I want to smoke so that I can really take the time to sit and think about it? You know, that's just one of the things. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:41]
Sheila Marie
You know, I think it's a part of western culture, but I think it specifically affected black bodies in a very particular way. But our, like, this puritanical culture that we're still attending attached to in some way, which is like hard work, you know, hard work is. Is the thing. And I know a lot of black bodies are. They have married their ability, their. Their labor with their worth. Like where we. We measure ourselves by how much we can do and how much we can put out. And I think this even bleeds into the self development, self help space, spiritual space. Because I didn't think about it, but now as we're talking, I'm like, yeah, because we would say, oh, well, it's good if you're doing it in a mindful way. Like, it's work, it's towards your work. You're doing it with reverence. But play, we don't get the play. We don't get the play. That's not what we do. And so I love the idea of just collapsing, that that play is spiritual. Spiritual is play. You can heal through direct spiritual practices, these ancestral practices that we know, like yoga, like meditation, but also play. Also joy. I think, especially for black bodies, the ability to be like, I'm useless to capitalism right now. I am just gonna go play, I'm gonna frolic, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get high, and I'm just gonna enjoy myself and enjoy feeling woozy. Like, I wonder why that's not okay too, you know?
- [23:03]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yeah. And I mean, these conversations, I think, are what help us recognize that there is that value in play and that value in disconnecting, to be able to, you know, figure out whatever it is you need to do or just release. Right. I have a hard time with the concept of herb being something that you can be addicted to.
- [23:24]
Sheila Marie
I think maybe you tell us more.
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Menle Gokai Agri
I think that for one, no one's ever OD'd on herb. So that's just scientific. Those are facts. That is Bible. Like people say, I don't know, maybe people said it's 10 years ago. But, you know, it's. It's just maybe something that you are dependent upon again, maybe something that you're using as a way to distract. But it's never going to be something that you're addicted to. You know, I think habits can be, you know, something that forms. Right. But I'm bringing that up because I think when it comes to mindfulness and when it comes to dependency or your relationship with herbal, that is where things do Get a little sticky, you know, and it's. It's a little bit harder.
- [24:11]
Sheila Marie
What if I have to get up every day and smoke, like, wake and bake every day? And that's. And that's like, my thing. And if I don't do it, I'm kind of cranky. I'm off. Would you say that's. That's an addiction or.
- [24:23]
Menle Gokai Agri
No, I think that's a dependency. I think you're dependent on smoking herb and having coffee to start off your day, to have a good day, to, you know, enjoy. I got my green tea.
- [24:37]
Sheila Marie
I got my coffee right there.
- [24:39]
Menle Gokai Agri
You know, I think it's a dependency. And of course, there are scientifically some with, you know, physical ailments of withdrawal that you can have after you smoke herbs. Some people, it's like body temperature regulation. For some people, it's irritability, but you're not going to be, like, sweating in a bed for two days with a fever because you stop smoking herb. And so I think. I'm not a scientist, but what I've read and what I understand from the plant itself is that that's more of a dependency, and that's more of a cognitive thing that if you want to work on, you can kind of find support through, you know, a licensed therapist or just talking to someone, a friend, or trying out and experimenting with yourself. Okay, maybe three times a week. I'm not going to do this. Or maybe I'll only wake and bake on the weekends and kind of see how I feel, see how my body responds, you know, if I can still be happy and joyful with the morning, you know?
- [25:38]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, for the people in the back, it's me. I'm the people in the back. Can you break down what's the difference between dependency and addiction?
- [25:47]
Menle Gokai Agri
The way that I see it, dependency is something that you sort of psychologically need and turn to, Whereas an addiction is not only a psychological necessity or like calling or whatever you want to say, but it's also a physical one. So physically, your body responds differently to. For example, if you're an alcoholic, right? And you feel. You wake up in the morning and you crack open that beer and you have to drink that beer so you can feel right. You know, you need that fix. I think that is more obviously like an addiction, because if you don't have it, then you are having those really intense withdrawals, right? Then you are having those. That inability to not be able to have the thing that you need, where your body is also responding to not having it in addition to your mind. Whereas I think with dependency, again, you're not going to maybe have those physical disruptions, but psychologically and mentally, you know, you're going to feel that. And so that's my way of breaking it down. Again, I'm not a doctor.
- [27:04]
Sheila Marie
I'm not a scientist for her, she.
- [27:08]
Menle Gokai Agri
But this is just my opinion.
- [27:09]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, yeah, we just want to talk. Come outside. You know, but I love that breakdown. And so you're. You know, I think I'm. I'm the type of person who feels like wherever you go, there you are. You bring your whole self into all the things that you do. So I wonder, in what ways do you feel like your own diasporic connections between Africa and Latin America? Like, in what ways do those show up in the way that you approach food and cannabis?
- [27:39]
Menle Gokai Agri
Well, it's interesting because while I love food and, you know, that is my bag, so to speak, I think it's also been this very beautiful vessel and lens in which I use to kind of look at the world and like you say, look at the diaspora in a greater lens. If I'm eating a dish or somebody presents food to me, I'm instantly thinking about as a plant. What is that? What does it look like? How does it grow? Where did it come from? You know what I mean? Like, how can I get a seed? Can I kind of, like, recreate this dish and taste it and kind of get more acquainted with it rather than. This is really good. Like, where did it come from? You know, I think it helps me to sort of investigate whether or not it is a part of my diaspora. I have been challenged by some people who have called me. I don't know, this is maybe controversial, but they've called me, like, a black supremacist, which I don't think I am, but whatever. I say that because.
- [28:50]
Sheila Marie
Wait, why would someone call you a black supremacist?
- [28:54]
Menle Gokai Agri
I think because a lot of times, again, for me, when I'm trying to look at the root of an actual plant, an actual thing, oftentimes it traces back to the continent of Africa. And so there's a lot of pride in that. And there's a lot of historical and, like, personal connection to that. And so that excites me. And that is something that I often want to talk about. I want to talk about those connections. I want to talk about that original sort of geographical, like, location. And I think people can see and view that as, oh, she thinks everything's black.
- [29:32]
Sheila Marie
Everything.
- [29:33]
Menle Gokai Agri
Like, it's.
- [29:33]
Sheila Marie
Y'all are just the Best. Are these people palm colored or are these people. Who called you that? Because when I hear that, I'm like, that doesn't sound. That sounds pro black. And being pro black doesn't mean anti. Anything else. But if you have an insecurity or if you have an inherent bias or belief that you've created everything you touched, everything, everything came from you. You are the authority on everything. If somebody comes along and says something otherwise that might be very. Feel very threatening. So I'm wondering where that critique came from. And I kind of have ideas.
- [30:09]
Menle Gokai Agri
Definitely, definitely beige.
- [30:11]
Sheila Marie
Beige leaning.
- [30:12]
Menle Gokai Agri
But I think also at the same time, good night. I'm kind of like, well, if we are the original people, isn't everything kind of. So, you know, I say it in a very controversial but playful way, but it goes back to that.
- [30:27]
Sheila Marie
I love that. Controversial and playful.
- [30:29]
Menle Gokai Agri
It's just like, okay, maybe, I don't know, maybe I am. But also the facts are what they are. And so I think it's just an interesting way to challenge people and myself. But it's just coming from that deep love and desire and curiosity surrounding. Where did this. How did this plant come to be this food?
- [30:50]
Sheila Marie
And that to me, is not a supremacist idea. To me. Supremacy. When I hear the word supremacy of any kind, it always implies someone is above and someone is below.
- [31:01]
Menle Gokai Agri
Right.
- [31:01]
Sheila Marie
What you're articulating is. It sounds like just a deep reverence and love.
- [31:05]
Menle Gokai Agri
Thank you. Thank you.
- [31:07]
Sheila Marie
Absolutely. I mean, that's what I'm getting. I don't know.
- [31:09]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yeah. And maybe even like being the first. I don't know. It's. It's not, it's not that.
- [31:14]
Sheila Marie
No, we do know. We do know. We're going to stand on our square because you know exactly what you're talking about. I am working on 20, 20, 25. One of my resolutions to stop saying I don't know and sorry all the time. So we do know. You do know. You do know. You wrote a whole book. You know exactly what you're doing. You spent years of your life, and it is okay to have that perspective. And I'm talking to myself too.
- [31:36]
Menle Gokai Agri
I know. Congrats on the book, by the way.
- [31:38]
Sheila Marie
Thank you.
- [31:39]
Nunu
Thank you.
- [31:41]
Sheila Marie
Okay, so you're. You're one of the lucky ones. If. If I'm not correct, you live in Mexico right now.
- [31:47]
Menle Gokai Agri
I do. I'm in Mexico City.
- [31:49]
Sheila Marie
Like, oh, my gosh. You escaped.
- [31:53]
Menle Gokai Agri
I escaped during Obama.
- [31:55]
Sheila Marie
Oh, my gosh.
- [31:57]
Menle Gokai Agri
Wow.
- [31:57]
Sheila Marie
So you've been living in Mexico all this time. Wow, wow, wow. Okay, so You've lived in the United States, you've lived in Mexico with this experience. How do you feel like these two different cultures approach food? And what lessons are there?
- [32:13]
Menle Gokai Agri
For one, there is easier access to food. It's pretty rare that you're going to find a food desert in Mexico unless there is a little bit of, you know, NAFTA slash American tinge on things. You know, maybe there's like more corner stores like a seven Eleven or an Oxo rather than an older mom and pop like Tienda, that used to have fresh produce, et cetera. But I think it's very rare that you will find any sort of food desert. There are mercados all over. You always have access to fresh fruit and vegetables. And I think that also extends to folks who are houseless, you know, who are on the streets, who are hungry. It's rare that you're gonna find somebody even laying down on the ground that doesn't have a plate of food by them. You know what I mean?
- [33:04]
Sheila Marie
Really?
- [33:05]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yes. It's just food is such an important element, I think, to a lot of indigenous cultures, I think to a lot of people outside of that sort of Western mentality. It's. It's. It's the way that we nurture and care for humanity. Right. And it's easy and it's. There's. It's accessible. And so that's something that I think about a lot and something that I've recognized pretty early on. But I also think what has been a striking difference, but also maybe just again, like a very curious leaning element is when I look at dishes and when I've encountered dishes and I taste them, and they taste like what my mother used to make, what my grandmother used to make back home. Being West African, recognizing this is palm oil or this is a technique that I know damn well is West African. But here it is on the coast of Oaxaca, right here. It is on a coast where, you know, you see brown bodies, you see bodies of Afro descent, but you, you know, you haven't really been able to. To further explore what that means. And so food has just been, again, that way to investigate who has been here before. Like, have we been here? You know, we've always been out here. It's been a very refreshing way to capture food culture again throughout the diaspora, but also just in that cultural shift of the way sort of food speaks to people and communities.
- [34:47]
Sheila Marie
Oh, yeah. This is making me think of. Have you seen that Netflix docu series called High on Hog?
- [34:54]
Menle Gokai Agri
I have. I've seen it. I'M friends with Stephen Stafferman. He came here for a little bit, too, and, oh, my goodness. Yeah, it's been a really interesting journey to see the way that he's captured that and really made it something.
- [35:08]
Sheila Marie
So it brought me to tears, that whole series, just how much the Western Africa that. That influence. The western African influence on food is spread throughout the entire diaspora. And one thing I want to highlight is that I just learned this fact, like, two years ago, and it blew my mind that when this. When the enslaved Africans were stolen off the shores of Western Africa, that 10 million of them were dropped in Latin America versus only hundreds of thousands in the United States. So because of the black cult, black culture is so widely spread and so global, we sometimes feel like black people have the dominance in America. Like, where the black. And it's like, we have actual black in Brazil.
- [35:54]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yes.
- [35:55]
Sheila Marie
In. In. In Central America, South America, across the world, Germany, even. They were like, wait, did I say. I know I read Germany somewhere. Y'all gonna eat me up for that one. But listen, I know I read it somewhere. But regardless of just saying, like, that there are. That. It makes sense that you are in Oaxaca and eating something that tastes like your mother, who is. Is she West African? Did I.
- [36:18]
Menle Gokai Agri
Did I get Ghanaian and Liberian? Yep.
- [36:20]
Sheila Marie
Okay. That she would make. Right. That makes sense. Absolutely. I want to ask you a question about your book, actually. And. Yeah. Her book is called the Art of Weed Butter. And you emphasize the patient, how important patience is in the cooking process. And when I got to this part, I was like, kind of hit dog will holler. I was hollering because I realized how fast I rushed through the cooking process. Like, when I'm cooking, like, especially, like, during the week, I realize I'm always just thinking about getting it done, get it done, make it.
- [36:52]
Menle Gokai Agri
You have such beautiful, thoughtful questions. I love this one. And I think there I sit on two sides, right? Because I recognize, especially being from the family that I have been brought up in, that time is really something very valuable and crucial. And not everybody has the time to slowly cook and slowly be there for their family when they have a million things to do. They have two jobs, they have homework to get done, they gotta bathe somebody, you know? And so I really want to hold space and respect and not discredit or devalue anybody who does have a limited amount of time to cook and needs to do something that's quick and easy. However, what I have learned through sort of this, like, act of slowing down is that sometimes it helps you Recognize, like a shortcut. You know, maybe this thing could have been all in one dish in the oven instead of me having to make it on separate different pots that are bubbling over and stressing me out. And, you know, I feel constrained by time. And so that's just like a little piece, I think, when it comes to food. But as someone who for now, has chosen to be childless, I'm out of a divorce. I have my own space and own place, and I feel very, like, free and, and, and able to kind of stretch and grow. Being slow in my.
- [38:26]
Sheila Marie
I love that.
- [38:26]
Menle Gokai Agri
So huge. Thank you. I love it, too. And again, I so much respect and whole value for having a big family, for being in a partnership, you know, for all of those things. But I also am so grateful for this time to stretch and be slow. And so it's just taught me so much about myself. And like you said earlier, kind of at the top of the interview, this disconnection from feeling like you have to produce for the sake of productivity, for the sake of capitalism, for the sake of racial capitalism, because it's heavily tied into the two. And so that has just really been a touchstone when it comes to, again, this act of slowing down in how I make food, how I smoke herb, how I interact with friends, whether or not I want to leave the house to do certain things. You know, it has. It's helped the way that I even work. I tend to give myself more time throughout the day. But there's pockets, you know, there's pockets of slowness, there's pockets of taking a break to stretch, going for a walk, kicking with a friend, you know, whatever. You kind of need to recharge and. And maintain, you know, that full day of work or whatever that looks like. And so I hope that answered your question.
- [39:55]
Sheila Marie
No, it did. And I wanted to actually isolate. Am I correct in saying that you said that you are child free, which is different from childless? Right. Like, childless means you. You don't have children, but you're open to it. You want them. Like, I'm childless. Right. And child free means I'm choosing, I'm making the active choice not to participate in procreation. Is that right?
- [40:24]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yes.
- [40:24]
Sheila Marie
And I feel like I watched a TikTok on it, so I was wondering if I was right about that.
- [40:29]
Menle Gokai Agri
I did not see that TikTok. I do not really have TikTok. You know, I think I'm both, but at the moment in time, maybe I'm child free, but I'm open to being childless. I had a conversation with my mom this weekend, which is actually really interesting. And I was talking to her about, you know, I'm 41 and the choices I've made and da, da, da, da, da. And she was just kind of like, you know, I don't know if you remember, but I vividly recall you sitting on my bed. You were like 18 or 19 and you said me, this world is messed up. I'm not bringing a child into this world. I just want you to know that I hope that you're okay with not being a grandmother. You know, one day like this full on conversation, I must have repressed that memory. I didn't think about it, but it's given me a little bit of ease because while it's a decision that I think I've made, I think I've also passively made the decision. So that's where I kind of sit in the two. Right. I'm open to adopting. I think that's something I would love to do. It's a little trickier here in Mexico, you know, especially when it comes to, specifically for me wanting to adopt from someone from like an Afro Mexican community. But anyway, I regress. I just think that it's, I, I sit on both realms of, of what that looks like. And I think, yeah, you get to.
- [41:51]
Sheila Marie
Choose, you know, you get to change your mind.
- [41:53]
Menle Gokai Agri
Exactly.
- [41:54]
Sheila Marie
My therapist tells me that all the time, like, you get to choose, like, remind yourself, like, you get to choose like you could be that then and then change. I just wanted to throw that term out there unless any, any ladies listening wanted to latch on to that and take that. Because some women are firmly like, it's just not for me. And then some are like, you know, more open to it. So you get to choose.
- [42:13]
Menle Gokai Agri
I like that phrasing though, and that way of sort of contextualizing the two.
- [42:18]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, right. I, I don't know. I just love to give women options. And sometimes we haven't heard options. We don' about certain options. And if we knew them, if we had names for them, we could choose more better the life we want for ourselves. You know, I want to go back to one more question about mindful eating, because I think it's really like, I, I am very familiar with their term mindful eating. A lot of us in the wellness space are, you know, it's being more intentional with your food being more present, probably not engaging in electronics. Sometimes people will put their actual hands over the food, feel the energy coming from the food before you eat it. But girl, when I'm busy Okay. And can I be mindful if I'm eating Burger Fi, like, you see what I'm saying? So I know these mindful, like, techniques, but, like, I sometimes don't know how to keep those practices when I'm in a rush, when I'm in a different setting. So for you, what is, like, what is being mindful with your food look like on, like, the day that you're chaotic? It's chaotic and you're super busy. Because we all know, like, on the days that are chill, we got this. But it's like the days when we're not chill, right.
- [43:29]
Menle Gokai Agri
Sometimes it, you know, you just want to grab a bag of chips. I don't know. I think, again, I'm so easy about things when it comes to people and their choice in terms of how they want to nourish themselves and eat for themselves. And so I like to hand it to that person. And I think specifically for me, it looks like intuitive eating. You know, it looks like kind of listening to your body's cues in terms of following maybe a strict diet. Because when you are. When you've got a limited amount of time and you can't make that raw meal, you know what I'm saying, And you can't chop up everything. You don't have it all in your refrigerator, you really do have to think about, okay, well, what do I feel like eating right now? Do I feel like having Mac and cheese? You know, like, is that what's calling to me? And is that going to be fast and easy to make? Bet let's do that. Let's eat that. But also, it does sound like an intuitive way where, you know, I have had a really busy week, and I haven't had the chance to eat a live enzyme in a long time. I really want to make that salad. I really want to make a soup or a broth or, you know, a juice or something. You know, I think that sort of deep, intuitive way of really knowing what your body wants, considering your constrictions with time, considering what the week has looked like, helps it become more of a practice and you become attuned to what your body craves, whether that is something that's seen as good or bad. I also like the idea of cooking as a ritual where it can feel almost like a meditative practice, and it's not. That kind of helps with the slowing down, too. When I think, okay, I'm gonna chop these things up, and when I chop them up, I'm even gonna think about it in a way that's meditated. Like, am I gonna breathe along with it? Sounds hella corny. I know.
- [45:28]
Sheila Marie
I'm gonna try that tonight. I literally am gonna try that tonight.
- [45:32]
Menle Gokai Agri
Like, am I gonna do a vase breath when I'm, like, chopping things up or when I'm eating, even washing dishes while I'm waiting for something else to cook? Like, how does this water feel going through my hands? Like, what a privilege it is to have clean water coming from this pipe that I can clean my dishes with. And I don't have to worry about me getting sick or my family getting sick.
- [45:53]
Sheila Marie
Yes.
- [45:54]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yes. What a joy that I can, like, pull something out of my refrigerator and it lasts for 10 days rather than spoiling, you know, and not having those things. And I think that little bit of, again, of, like, mindfulness can kind of help bring you back down to earth and, you know, you recognize what you're grateful for and what the gratitude is. Such a big gratitude is huge. It's huge.
- [46:21]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, it is. Oh, my goodness. This is just bars, bars, bars. I want to move to. This is the section of the interview where we leave them with a little we app, give them a little tool in their toolkit. Okay. Because, you know, being unruly is about doing the work and implementing these ideas into your everyday life. So we're going to leave them with something actionable and tangible. So, menlay, what are three concrete steps or ideas that you would tell someone who wants to start being more mindful about their food? Like, maybe it's a way to cook or a place they can start. Like, where were just three simple, like, steps, starting points.
- [47:02]
Menle Gokai Agri
Okay. I think one of my favorite ones, and that seems the most important is having a journal, like, creating just a small recipe journal. And it's not about calories. It's not about good or bad. It's just about something that you made that tasted really good. And you want to be able to capture that so that you can go back to it so you can share it with your family. I think I'm saying it for myself because I really feel like it's important to have a little legacy, you know, to give your little cousins, your family, yourself. Later on, I have to go back again to that ritual way of cooking where again, you are either taking breaths along with an action of chopping, an action of washing, thinking about it as a way of it being, like, servitude and gratitude to the food and to what you're preparing and also to yourself for doing it, because it's easy to just call uber Eats. It's easy to just have somebody kind of deliver something to you. And I think thanking yourself for doing that thing is really big. And it's something that a lot of us, you know, do in meditation and yoga. You thank yourself for showing up. And so I think that that's another huge part as well.
- [48:23]
Sheila Marie
Yeah, that gratitude piece is huge. Because I'm thinking about later, I will be cooking dinner. And if I think about everything that's going on in the world right now, and all the natural disasters and the man made ones and all the genocides happening, all the pain, all the suffering, all the hunger, and I get to go in a clean kitchen and make pretty much whatever food I want. Like, what a blessing that is. So if I think about it, if I try, I know it sounds cheesy, like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, babes, we're busy, we got a lot on our plate. But if I think about, wow, this is so cool. I literally made this up from the store like you said. Or I'm chopping this and this is going to taste so good. I'm so grateful my hands work, I got my motor skills. I'm grateful I have a space that I can make food. Like that, like, already changes my vibration. Like, as I'm talking to you and saying those things, I feel different. And this kind of reminds me of like one of my favorite books I had to read when I was young. Like, Como Agua para Chocolate?
- [49:26]
Menle Gokai Agri
Yeah.
- [49:26]
Sheila Marie
Did you read that? Yeah, because I'm like, wait a minute, you're in, you're in Latin America on that side. But. And they're making a movie about that now, actually. But I just remember that whatever the emotions of the chef, when they, when, when she would cook, it would go into the food and then when people would eat it, they would take it on. So I wonder if, like, I thank you for leaving us with that, like putting that gratitude, putting them good vibes into yourself when you're cooking into the food and then probably into your family, which everybody wins, you know, nobody will have an attitude after that.
- [49:58]
Menle Gokai Agri
Okay, I love that. I love the way you view that too, because it does. Yeah, it translates into everything. You just. The food tastes better.
- [50:07]
Sheila Marie
There's no. You're the one who gave me that idea.
- [50:09]
Menle Gokai Agri
But thinking about it in the context of the book, you know, and kind of just that transcendental way that it works, it's always good to have a reminder, you know, of what, what you're trying to say and express. And so I'm grateful for that.
- [50:24]
Sheila Marie
Thank you so much and huge thank you to you, Menle. You like, you literally. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's because you're in Mexico right now. Like, my grandfather's Cuban, and like, that side of me is like, say something in Spanish. I'm like, no, I can't.
- [50:42]
Menle Gokai Agri
I'm like, am I fronting? Because I'm not latina. But there's so many. There's so many moments where I want to speak in Spanish. And I'm like, girl, you better.
- [50:50]
Sheila Marie
And I'm like, girl, I sound like a third grader. Like, mucha gracia. Pormele con juntos ahora.
- [51:01]
Menle Gokai Agri
I'm even encanto. You can say whatever you want.
- [51:04]
Sheila Marie
Thank you so much, Medley, for being here today. I just enjoyed your very unique perspective, all your wisdom and all the gems you dropped about how we could just deeply connect more with ourselves and our food. Now, people are going to be looking for you. So where can the listeners find you? Follow your word. Keep updated on what you have going on.
- [51:24]
Menle Gokai Agri
Thank you for having me. This has been a joy, a pleasure. You can find me begrudgingly on the Internet. I am on Instagram Enlay my first name, and I also recently launched a subspec newsletter. It's just focusing on food and sort of how, again, we kind of relate that to history and culture and weed. And that is called taste bud on substack.
- [51:50]
Sheila Marie
Wow, I've been hearing so much about substack lately. Gotta check that out. Love that. Well, thank you, menle. It was a pleasure having you. Thank you so much. And I wish you just all good things, all the blessings, all the light, all the love. And thank you for listening to another episode of unruly. Don't forget to subscribe. Subscribe. In the words of my friend Jesse Wu, subscribe share this episode with a friend, and we will see you next time. All right. That was such a powerful conversation, wasn't it? I know. So let's dive into one of my favorite parts of the show. This is the unruly community call in section. And I love this part because I love hearing from you. So let's dive right into today's question.
- [52:36]
Nunu
Hi, Sheila. Thank you for doing this. My name is Nunu. And first of all, I just want to say I really admire you. I love your page. I love your content, your personality. I just love everything that you stand for and everything that you're doing for black women and women in general. I just wanted to say you're Doing a great job. And also, I know that you said you want to help us find our voice. I'm really just. I don't know, I'm in a rut. Like I'm trying to figure out my place in the world because I've had a really rough upbringing. A rough, rough, rough family dynamic. Like, it's very dysfunctional. I don't really speak to my parents. I feel like in this world right now, it's literally just me and my husband. I'm 26 years old. I'm a newlywed. Me and my husband haven't married for a year. But I'm not really close with my family or anything. So I'm just. I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. I guess this would have to be a longer conversation because the max duration is 90 seconds. But yeah, I'm just trying to find my place in this world as a 26 year old young woman, I guess from a different culture. But yeah, thank you so much for doing this. You're amazing. I love your page, love your content, love your personality. Sorry for ranting. Okay, bye.
- [53:52]
Sheila Marie
Okay, it's time for another listener submitted question. And this one is from Nunu. And Nunu, thank you for the love, girl. I love you back, girl. Love you down. Okay. Nunu is trying to figure out her place in the world. Nunu says she's 26 years old, she's a newlywed, and she really comes from like a rough family dynamic. And she's currently no contact with her parents. So without having that familial connection, Nunu is kind of lost in trying to find her place in this world. First of all, Nunu, I just want to say that I empathize with your position. It's very courageous for survivors of childhood trauma to decide to cut ties with people who will continue to harm them. It's also very sad because at the end of the day, we do do wish that we could have a family that loves us and protects us and is. What's the word I'm looking for? And is reciprocal in some way. But that doesn't always happen. So I'm just proud of you for choosing the best thing for yourself. In terms of your answer, I would say you try. You're trying to find your place in the world, find your place within yourself first. So this is always going to be my go to is start by getting to know yourself. So whether that's through signing up for some therapy or some coaching or just doing journaling, just spending time with yourself. I would actually. I actually think you're the perfect person to read my book Unruly, which is coming out October 22nd. That's just a plug, but it actually is true. I think it would really help you. It's perfect for your situation, trying to find yourself and reinvent yourself or rediscover discover who you are. And so I would ask yourself to sit and think, who are you outside of your family dynamic? What things do you like to do? What are your hobbies? What are you interested in? What are your spiritual beliefs? The more you get to know yourself, the more that you can create a community of people that can support you and just enjoy life with you. And then I think you can start being open to looking for creating a family in this new way. So maybe your family isn't DNA. Shared DNA, shared experiences, shared time does not necessarily mean that those people will be able to understand you and support you. So I would look to create a family of people that can nurture you and pour into you and just move through life with you. I wish you all the best in your journey, Nunu. Big hugs. Thank you so much for sending that in and to the rest of the unruly community, if you have something on your mind, a question or something you want me to answer, just send in a voice note@speakpipe.com unruly I can't wait to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you never, ever, ever, ever miss an episode of Unruly.
- [57:10]
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