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- [00:02]
Paul Scheer
The year is 1984.
- [00:04]
Amy Nicholson
Has it got a name, dad?
- [00:06]
Gizmo (voice or character)
Yeah. Mogwai. What? Mogwai. I don't know, some Chinese word. I just call him Gizmo. He seems to like it.
- [00:16]
Paul Scheer
The movie Gremlins.
- [00:27]
Amy Nicholson
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Unspooled.
- [00:34]
Paul Scheer
Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed, Ems, we have
- [00:41]
Amy Nicholson
covered the AFI top 100, and now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterbox top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb top 250, and the New York Times 1000 essential films.
- [00:54]
Paul Scheer
And we will also be chasing our own curiosity, too, like we are doing today as we tackle Gremlins, a movie that is. I don't know, Amy, how would you describe this little mini journey that we are on?
- [01:08]
Amy Nicholson
I think it started with aliens and it wound up with little green men.
- [01:11]
Paul Scheer
And that's enough of a theme for me. I am Paul Scheer. I am an actor, writer, director, and someone who saw Gremlins in the theater had a Gremlins, you know, lined notebook that I brought to school. I had all the merch. Amy, I'm a gremlin head.
- [01:32]
Amy Nicholson
I'm not surprised. You are ahead for many things. Hi, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for the Los Angeles Times. And I will admit I have had many years to get used to the idea of being friends with Leonard Maltin, who has a cameo in Gremlins 2. I still am always just incredibly excited to be talking to Leonard Malton because I have loved him since his, you know, cameo. And Gremlins 2.
- [01:55]
Paul Scheer
Wow. That's how you met Leonard Maltin? Like, that was your introduction to him?
- [01:59]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah, it was my gateway malt.
- [02:01]
Gizmo (voice or character)
Wow.
- [02:01]
Paul Scheer
Leonard Maltin was such a big part of my, like, childhood, like him and Siskel and Ebert, like, reviewing movies. Like, I loved a TV show where you could watch critics, talk about the movies and show clips. It felt so unique and cool, like I get to know everything. I mean, just look how far we've come now we're doing it, but our faces are off the screen.
- [02:31]
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- [03:02]
Amy Nicholson
Unschooled.
- [03:04]
Paul Scheer
All right, before we get into Gremlins, can we just talk a little bit about Joe Dante? Because Joe Dante is a very interesting character in Hollywood, not necessarily a, a mainstream guy, right? He is coming off of this little weird film called Piranha, right? Take a listen.
- [03:23]
Gizmo (voice or character)
Keep your hand out of the water.
- [03:25]
American Express Ad Voice
What's wrong with the water?
- [03:26]
Gizmo (voice or character)
The water is filled with carnivorous fish, Piranha. They call them the devil fish because wherever they go, hell waits below. They breed like flies. There'll be no way to stop them. These are the man eaters who go beyond the bite of all other jaws. Sharks come alone. Piranha come in thousands.
- [03:54]
Paul Scheer
Now, I have a little bit of a connection with Piranha because I was in Piranha 3D and of course Piranha 3 double D. Anyway, you might be thinking, well, Joe Dante clearly has a thing for small, little water loving monsters. And it's, it's kind of true. He likes creatures. Uh, and the interesting thing about Piranha is it's not only his first solo directing credit, but it's produced by Roger Corman, and Roger Corman likes to get butts and seats. He likes to make a little bit of noise. So he decides to release Piranha the same summer as Jaws 2, which makes universal the. The owner of Jaws go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're not going to do this. You guys are ripping off Jaws and now you're going to try to steal the money that Jaws 2 is going to get. But Steven Spielberg is a little bit more rational. He's like, let me watch Piranha. Let me see if this is really like a Jaws ripoff. And he watches it and he's like, you know what, guys? This is kind of good. It, it should just exist. He likes Piranha.
- [05:01]
Amy Nicholson
No, Steven Spielberg watches a lot of movies, by the way. Like, I was recently told by somebody who would know that Steven Spielberg has seen K Pop Demon Hunters multiple times.
- [05:10]
Paul Scheer
So what Amy does is mean he watches a lot of movies. It means that he watches K Pop Demon Hunters.
- [05:16]
Amy Nicholson
I'm saying he's a curious guy. He's a curious guy. So Steven Spielberg, he of course goes on to watch Joe Dante's second movie too. And it's this werewolf movie. It's called the Howling. Steven. Steven Spielberg even cast the lead of the Howling, Dee Wallace as the mother in his E.T. wow.
- [05:30]
Paul Scheer
So you Think it was that directly correlated.
- [05:33]
Amy Nicholson
I think he's just a curious guy looking for talent wherever he finds it.
- [05:37]
Paul Scheer
I do believe that Spielberg is a lover of film. I mean, it's like Tom Cruise, right? He has seen every movie. He is constantly taking in what the world is putting out. And I think that actually makes for a better filmmaker. And especially at this time, you know, Spielberg is at the top of his game. So I think he's gotta be watching anyone who's making interesting genre films.
- [06:00]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah, he's getting Amblin off the ground, you know, and so it's around this time that he gets a script written by this young NYU student named Chris Columbus. Chris is living in this rundown building in New York City while he's going to school, and he's written this monster movie that's like an anti King Kong where the monster isn't big, it is small. Like the mice in his New York City apartment that are freaking him out all the time. Now, Spielberg doesn't want to direct Gremlins, which is a shocker. If you have known through this podcast the number of times Spielberg has attached himself to something he winds up never making. But he thinks that this guy Joe Dante might do a good job. So he meets up with Joe and 20 minutes later, Joe has the job.
- [06:37]
Paul Scheer
This movie is dark, right? And I'm kind of fascinated by it because like I said, I had a lot of the toys for this movie, but when I'm watching it, I'm like, is this a kids film? I mean, it's very heavy B movie energy with a lot of bizarre and I would say sure footed choices. And it skews more towards horror than anything else. And it's about this young man. I mean, I guess he's a man, but he kind of still lives with his parents. Anyway, he is given this very exotic pet. It's a mogwai. And the mogwai has a few rules and. And if you break those rules, well, what happens is they multiply. And in this movie, dozens and dozens of mogwais, or I guess gremlins, I don't know when they become a gremlin versus a mogwai kind of overpopulate and take over this small town and then have to be violently killed.
- [07:36]
Amy Nicholson
Now, lots of future stars go out for this leading part. The character's name is Billy. You got Tom Hanks, Kevin Bacon, Ralph Macchio, Emilia Estevez, Rob Lowe, Judd Nelson, lots of talent. Spielberg winds up picking Zach Galligan because he likes the chemistry that Zack has with the Romantic girlfriend part. The character's name is Kate. She's played by Phoebe Cates. Phoebe Cates is a lock for this movie because she has already made Fast Times at Ridgemont High. We've done an episode on that. She's just the teen dream. They want her in the movie. She and Zack have a thing. Boom, they're cast.
- [08:05]
Paul Scheer
Hoyt Axton and Frances Leigh McCain play Billy's parents. Corey Feldman, who just missed out on being an ET Gets to play this kind of. Kind of neighborhood kid who's annoying as hell, which is something that Corey Feldman is doing perfectly in this era. Um, we also have, I think, a. A Judge Reinhold performance as a total jerk that works at the bank. Very different Reinhold performance than Fast Times and a lot of the work that he does after this.
- [08:34]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah. Now, Gremlins has a budget of $11 million, which is not that much when the Gremlins themselves take a lot of special effects work. We're really going to get in on that later. But it gets even harder when Spielberg decides six weeks before filming starts that they should change the script and allow one mogwai to stay cute and become a hero. And that major change to the plot does wind up selling a lot of toys and causing a lot of headaches for everybody.
- [08:59]
Paul Scheer
Now, Gremlins was planned to be released as a Christmas movie, but the studio moved its release date up so it could have a summer movie that could hold its own against Ghostbusters. And in fact, Gremlins and Ghostbusters were released on the same day. That's June 8, 1984. And they both did really well. Ghostbusters came in first, but only by a million dollars, which is fine because it cost three times as much money.
- [09:26]
Amy Nicholson
And Gremlins would go on to make $148 million and become Warner Brothers most successful film ever. Until Batman was released five years later. But parents started to complain that this PG movie was too violent. A lot of people went to Gremlins expecting, oh, cuddly ET Part two. Steven Spielberg is producing. They were horrified at melting, skeletal, screaming Gremlins. And so it became one of the two films responsible for creating the PG13 rating. Everybody just go ahead and scream out the other movie with us.
- [09:56]
Paul Scheer
Indiana Jones. The Temple of Doom.
- [09:59]
Amy Nicholson
Exactly. That is a movie that I think is way too dark. But I would say that Gremlins is just right.
- [10:04]
Paul Scheer
It's interesting that this lover of film, Steven Spielberg, is, you know, solely responsible for this new rating. And I wonder if it's because he's Steven Spielberg that he has this power to kind of say to the mpaa, hey guys, let's put a middle rating here, right? Because things that are PG but not R, we can get more people in the audience if it's PG13. I mean it does feel financially like a smart decision to create a PG13.
- [10:36]
Amy Nicholson
Well, yeah, I think there's that. I think there's his clout within the industry and then there's. I think there's also just his draw with audiences at this time, which is a new Steven Spielberg movie. Feels like you want everybody in the family to see it. You know, he hasn't made Schindler's List yet. Like he is just a name brand on his own. And so to have a movie where like kids are going by the dozens and then getting traumatized, pretty horrible, he at least wants to give people the heads up, which I would say I'm glad. But it does make me kind of sad because I feel like now when we look around the world of PG films is really skinny. Like most of the ones that are here that exist are cartoons. Honestly, cartoons are like live action cartoons like Minecraft. I feel a little bit sad that this great burst of action in kiddie friendly family wacky live action movies feels like in a way it winds up tapering them off.
- [11:26]
Paul Scheer
Well, you know, I think all it does is create a more a sustainable rating. Right. Because a PG movie you can bring little kids to for the most part. And a PG13, you know that the kids have to just be a little bit more, a little bit more adult. I mean as a parent I can say that PG13 is a great marker. It. And I will say also that my kids want to see PG13 movies. It's like they always talk about like Disney shows. They're not for the age that the kids are in the show. It's always for the younger kids looking up to those kids in the show. So I feel like a PG13 movie is more of like a rite of passage. Like you're probably seeing it at 10, but you know, like, oh, it's PG 13.
- [12:13]
Amy Nicholson
Well maybe that explains like the weirdness of this Billy character. Cause yeah, like he is definitely a young man. He works at a job at a bank. But he's also treated like a little kid in his house. And it's like, oh, we got you a Christmas present. He seems like a 14 year old inside of a giant man's body.
- [12:29]
Paul Scheer
Yeah, and I think this is like a weird era too because this is kind of an a time in film. Where kids are in peril. Right. Steven Spielberg has created a genre here, too. You talk about Goonies, which we did an episode on. But, you know, and we've talked about Home Alone, which is later. But this is a time where you could make a movie where children were being put under attack and there was fear of them dying, which is something you really can't do anymore, right? It has become.
- [12:57]
Amy Nicholson
I find it really impressive. They're like, here's a chainsaw coming at you. It's not just like, oh, no, we have to stop the gremlins. Because existentially, I feel like our entire town is vaguely under threat. It's like, no, they are coming actively to kill me. I mean, they're less violent than they were in the original script, in which they do just straight up murder. The Corey Feldman kid here, he lives. But, yeah, they go hard.
- [13:19]
Paul Scheer
Well, and I'm looking at it. I'm going, maybe that's why they cast it up. Because everybody you mentioned, they are older. But I think they also want to create the family bond. The family is really important here. Hoyt Axton, you know, you open this movie with him, and it's a really cool opening that's shot on the back lot, but it's supposed to be in Chinatown. And, you know, we're buying into this myth of this magical creature. And I. And I feel like he is the entry point. The father has to bring it home. The father has to be open to it. I love this dad. I mean, he's the inventor, because I think that he buys us this insane choice, bringing home a creature that looks like nothing else because he's into new and weird and interesting things. That's why we have to put this kid in a house with his parents.
- [14:09]
Amy Nicholson
I mean, it is a little weird because from the way the movie starts, you think that the dad's the protagonist. I mean, he's walking through Chinatown kind of like he's in the movie Chinatown. It feels like this noir. There's mist everywhere. He's got that, you know, it's me. The old Humphrey Bogart gumshoe narration.
- [14:25]
Gizmo (voice or character)
It all started here in Chinatown. I was hitting the shops, trying to move a little merchandise, maybe find a present for my kid. I tried this one place, which is
- [14:35]
Paul Scheer
something that he actually stumbled into in post because the movie started off with him wandering around Chinatown, not finding the perfect thing for his son. By the way, he did get only one son a gift. Or. I mean, I guess Corey Feldman is not like.
- [14:50]
Amy Nicholson
He is.
- [14:51]
Paul Scheer
Oh, no. He's the next Door neighbor. Okay, yeah, sorry. So I just forgot that Billy lives upstairs in a child's bedroom. Again, a little confusing when you really try to break it down. But they stumbled into that because the movie needed a little bit more of a. I don't know, it like a. A story element to it. Like a once upon a time, like a mystical land. And I feel like his voiceover really does that. It kind of sets the tone.
- [15:18]
Amy Nicholson
Well, yeah, I mean they. Even when they announced the rules for the first time, do it in this echoey slow motion. It feels old fashioned. It doesn't feel as much like a kid's movie. And I love, just as an aside that this dad is going around in the 80s with his inventions that are all that specific, specific shade of like 80s beige plastic. You know what I'm talking about?
- [15:39]
Paul Scheer
Oh, I love it. The all in one, like Bathroom Buddy. I love that Bathroom Buddy. It's very cumbersome. But yeah, like it. I love that he's trying to. I mean, it's not even that he has a passion for one thing. He has a passion for inventions. Right. He's got coffee makers, he's got fly swatters. They give him so much funny business in this movie. Like there's a scene where they're just sitting down at the table and he's trying out multiple inventions at the table. It's like, you know, and it's like he's kind of lost in his own world.
- [16:14]
Amy Nicholson
And there's like an artichoke with electrodes coming out of it.
- [16:18]
Paul Scheer
I love this. I will say that my favorite bit in this entire movie involves the dad when he's at the inventor's convention. Do you know what I'm gonna be talking about here?
- [16:27]
Amy Nicholson
I think I do.
- [16:28]
Paul Scheer
Okay. It's the smallest throwaway joke, but it's perfect. He is on the phone calling home, checking in. The town is a little bit under attack at this point. And off in like the corner of the shot, you see someone in the old school H.G. wells time machine. And it's just a funny visual. And then when you cut away from it and cut back, the person has disappeared in a plume of smoke. Like there is a real time machine in this movie. And then immediately as you're taking that in, you have Robbie the Robot from like or. Or is it Forbidden Planet or one of those, you know, classic sci fi TV shows from the 50s, like just weaseling into his conversation. It's the funniest backdrop for a. A very serious phone call where they're basically like our town is under attack and you're getting all these jokes in the background. I just. And I love the way that he plays everything in this.
- [17:31]
Amy Nicholson
Well, yeah, the laboriousness of that, like finding the time machine, setting this up, having it disappear, those are the things that make me really value this film because it just feels like Joe Dante is trying to cram in as much interesting stuff as he can. And it also feels like he's thought of it like those kind of layers that when you add it into just the background visuals waiting that people may or may not even notice them in the future, you're not sure you're Joe Dante. Is this even going to be a big hit or is it just going to be another like B movie, another piranhas kind of thing to go to? That trouble is the sort of thing that makes me really respect a film, you know, because you feel like he is putting every single inch of effort into it.
- [18:13]
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- [19:39]
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- [20:09]
Amy Nicholson
Unschooled. I mean, my favorite bits actually have to do with, like, everything that the mother is doing in the back of these scenes, you know, Frances Lee McCain, the way she's sort of mildly rolling her eyes at him but trying to be incredibly sweet. The original script made a bigger deal of the fact that this mother is, like, popping Valium like nobody's business, because that's the only way she can stay calm in this house where nothing works. But the idea that they're living in a home where nothing works, I think sets up the idea that, yeah, we're gonna bring home this new gizmo. Gizmo. And it's not gonna work.
- [20:38]
Paul Scheer
And not only is it not gonna work, it's going to misfire badly. And that's what it is. And we go back to the origin of the word gremlin. And gremlin were the things that made machines malfunction, right? That was a term that came up in World War II. They say, oh, there's gremlins in the engine, right? They're kind of, you know, pulling apart the wires. That's the original intent. So by making this main character, or one of the main characters, this inventor with failed equipment, this is the personification of everything that he does the town like. And he didn't invent the mogwai or gizmo, but he brought it into their life to wreak havoc. And I love that, in a way, no one draws a line to the fact that he's responsible for it all.
- [21:27]
Amy Nicholson
Oh, no, not at all. I mean, he's really hoping he can sell these things. And I find it almost offensive, on behalf of the magwai, that he imagines that he can sell them with his own name. Like, forget even what they're actually called. We're gonna call them after me.
- [21:42]
Gizmo (voice or character)
You know what? What? I'll bet every kid in America would like to have one of these. Hmm. They might even replace the dog as the. Think about it. The Peltzer pit. This could really be the big one.
- [22:10]
Amy Nicholson
And actually, now that I'm thinking about it, when nothing in this house ever works ever again, now the dad has the perfect scapegoat. Remember that time we had the gremlins? I'm sure something happened. They broke my egg machine. That's why my egg machine isn't working. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I wanted to pull, actually a clip of one of the old cartoons about the gremlins. Because this movie has old cartoon energy. It's very much. There is the famous Bugs Bunny one where he's on a plane and there's a gremlin attacking it. But I pulled a different one because this one is new to me. It's. The Gremlins are Russian. They're attacking a bunch of German planes, and they're singing a song called the Gremlins from the Kremlin. I'm a gremlin from the Kremlin.
- [22:54]
Paul Scheer
We're here, we're there.
- [22:55]
Amy Nicholson
We're everywhere. We're in the Nazis hair. And when they tried to catch us, we're the little men who were there. I mean, Gremlins. Why don't we have this idea now? Like, we're recording this some day when I was nervous about my podcast equipment not working, and I'm like, there's just gremlins in everything. I feel like we live in a time where I don't think machines are working and I don't trust them. So we need to bring gremlins back just as an idea.
- [23:25]
Paul Scheer
I like that idea. I mean, maybe whenever your Internet's down, it's a gremlin. A gremlin is in the system. A gremlin is an AI messing it all up. That's why everybody has four fingers instead of five on their hands. I love this movie. And I watch it and I think, well, yeah, you could never make this movie because how would you market it? How would you market it towards kids? Now, I can tell you that I have a good test example, which is maybe two years ago, I showed it to my kids, who are about at the time, like, 9 and 7, and they loved it. I mean, Gremlins in the blender or what? You know, or like, they're. They think it's funny.
- [24:04]
Amy Nicholson
And I think that, yeah, that mom does not pause at all before she starts killing people brutally. Oh, they went back once. Done. Done.
- [24:12]
Gizmo (voice or character)
Yes.
- [24:13]
Amy Nicholson
She's like, I live in a house of chaos. You do not scare me. I will blend all of you.
- [24:17]
Paul Scheer
I think that that kind of cartoon logic makes Joe Dante so interesting, because in somebody else's hands, this is. I mean, this is. This is a gross horror film. But because it's viewed as light and silly, and you have a Mogwai or you have Gizmo driving in, like, a Barbie car at the end, even though the stakes are so high, it doesn't feel as terrifying, even though it's frightening and it's gross. Um, and I'm really fascinated in what you talked about. Before that, Steven Spielberg came up with the idea to not flip Gizmo to keep a hero in this movie. Because I think that really is some of the secret sauce that makes this movie a lot more fun. Like, one gremlin is good, and one gremlin is, you know, also on the back foot for the entire film.
- [25:17]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah. Although I do feel like Gizmo was a little bit of a traitor.
- [25:22]
Paul Scheer
What do you mean?
- [25:24]
Amy Nicholson
Well, can I say that I think I take the gremlin side in a lot of this.
- [25:30]
Paul Scheer
Hold on, Amy. All right, break it down.
- [25:33]
Amy Nicholson
I mean, first off, they didn't ask to be born. They were born on an exit. They didn't ask to be bought. They didn't have to be sold. Like, they've been brought into this house.
- [25:42]
Paul Scheer
Wow. We're going treat ourselves. Okay, so you want to put this logic on cats, too.
- [25:48]
Amy Nicholson
I mean, my cats, if they. If my cats could control this mic, I'm sure they have a lot of opinions on how they live. No, I think this movie is incredibly critical of humans and how they treat the gremlins. And I think the gremlins are justified. Like, they're taken away into this house. You have to admit this Gizmo was treated very differently than his siblings. Gizmo gets to hang out in the bed. They have to sleep in this box just all crowded together. Billy doesn't care about them. Obviously, they're going to get bored and just decide to eat some chicken. I mean, I think that, honestly, if the movie is about anything, it's about how the gremlins pick up bad habits from us and then go nuts. And instead of curing our own problems, we're like, oh, we got to kill these guys. They're too nuts.
- [26:30]
Paul Scheer
Well, I mean, there's a little bit of a theory here about pet ownership. Right. Remember all those stories that came out when 101 Dalmatians live action was released? There were so many people adopting Dalmatians. And then when they found Dalmatians are actually pretty difficult dogs, no offense, Dalmatian owners. There was a glut of Dalmatians at shelters. People just were like, I can't handle this. Like, the cuteness of it is not actually. They wanted to get a movie character, not an actual pet. And I think this movie is.
- [27:05]
Amy Nicholson
Has a scene exactly like that. It does. Where. Where Corey Feldman is like, oh, I totally want one. Oh, give me one. Give me one. And then they accidentally make a bunch of them, and one of them bites Corey Feldman, and he immediately is like, nah. And he just goes to his bed, doesn't care, reading a comic book, not paying attention. As soon as it's even a slight bit of a hassle, he gives up on these guys and they're like 30 seconds old.
- [27:28]
Paul Scheer
I know. I mean, I think that. Look, again, not to keep on mentioning that I am a parent, but yeah, that's the way it goes. My kids are the worst dog owners. Like my son will earnestly look at me and say, do I have to walk bingo today? Today? Yeah, yeah, you got. Yeah, you should. You got to today too. Every day. As a matter of fact, do you
- [27:52]
Amy Nicholson
ever say, do I have to feed you today?
- [27:54]
Paul Scheer
Oh, and by the way, they forget if they have fed. I mean, we're watching over it, of course, but yeah, they are terrible owners of pets.
- [28:03]
Amy Nicholson
I just heard this great line the other day that kind of stuck with me. I'm gonna get it a little bit wrong. But the maxim is something like a dog with many owners goes hungry, that if nobody feels single handedly responsible, then they don't get taken care of. Which I think happens here. Nobody is responsible.
- [28:20]
Gizmo (voice or character)
Right.
- [28:20]
Paul Scheer
They didn't even want the one. I mean, first of all, as someone who is given a gift of an animal on my birthday, I will say it's the worst thing you could possibly do to a person. Give them anything living. I have two rules. Don't give anybody anything living, nor should you give them art. Those are my two big rules for gift giving. It just, it never is going to work unless you know that they like a very specific art.
- [28:49]
Amy Nicholson
But even then, I mean, once you have this gizmo, you have to live in a house of darkness.
- [28:54]
Paul Scheer
Yes.
- [28:54]
Amy Nicholson
It's so light sensitive. You have to live in a house of darkness.
- [28:57]
Paul Scheer
But maybe with one, it's fine.
- [29:00]
Amy Nicholson
House of darkness. He can like never. I mean, okay, I guess he's not going to turn all the mirrors and put on a bunch of makeup. But if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to.
- [29:08]
Paul Scheer
Well, I, again, I agree with you. This mogwai was captured from somewhere. We don't know where. Um, and, you know, left in the store. And, and the son, I mean, look, the son really, I blame the son. The son of the man who owns the store. He is the one who messes this whole thing up. The owner of the store knows no person is gonna be able to care for the mogwai. The son is the one who makes the mistake. So this is really a story about fathers and sons?
- [29:40]
Amy Nicholson
I think so. Well, also, I think it's about Oh, I think it's about fathers, sons, taking care of pets. And also the trouble in mass media. Because one of the things I think is really fascinating that's going on in the back end of this movie all the time is there's always a television. Someone is always watching something, usually an old movie. People are taking in all of this input. I think that the Gremlins are incredibly susceptible to mass media. The way that in the 80s, everybody would go, we can't have our kids listening to heavy metal. Oh, my God, they're all gonna become Satanists. These Gremlins absorb everything that they watch. So they're really learning from us. I mean. Well, first, as evidence that they absorb everything, they go to the movies. They watch Snow White. They immediately start singing along with it. You can hear. It's not even just the Gremlin Gremlins gizmo too. There's something in the species that's, I guess, human ish. They absorb and they reflect. So they are just extreme versions of human behavior. They go to a bar, they get drunk, they stick up things. They got guns. They're violent. They're learning it from us, dude.
- [31:16]
Paul Scheer
They're acting out human play. That's one of the things they love about the characters. And Gremlins 2 really embraces this too. But they're all in those. You know, they're all in costume and wardrobe. And let's not worry about how they got that. That's, again, the cartoon logic of Bugs Bunny dressing up like a woman or whatever it is. Like, I am. I am never gonna question a thing. Even though the Key and Peele sketch where they talk about the costumes for the Gremlins is one of my favorites. But Joe Dante was talking about this. You know, I think he saw in the 80s, this culture that is watching a lot of TV, watching a lot of screens, and thinking about, well, what happens when people raised on Disney and Hollywood, this fantasy world, kind of takes those behaviors and tries to act them out in the real world, it becomes destructive. Right. And the entire town is set essentially in It's a Wonderful Life. I mean, it's definitely the Back to the Future town. We know that it looks exactly like Back to the Future, but it's not
- [32:22]
Amy Nicholson
Back to the Future yet. And it's going through time.
- [32:25]
Paul Scheer
But. But I think it is a riff on that kind of a town, right?
- [32:31]
Amy Nicholson
Oh, very much. I mean, even the way he runs through it is his run. And he's running like that. Before you even see it in the movie, you have to recognize that run. Yeah, I mean really, that Jimmy Stewart run is right up there with the Tom Cruise run in terms of. I know the angle of it, I know how the elbows move, I know how it works. I can see it being ambulated. So when he does the Jimmy Stewart run, I'm like, yep, there it is.
- [32:53]
Paul Scheer
I love that run. I love seeing this town. I just as a kid and as an adult I got to walk through that town multiple times. We even had our trailers there for Black Monday one day and I was just freaking out. But I love that. I just love him running through. And the whole thing feels like this little moment in time, but I also think it's capturing a panic moment, an anxiety about how the outside world is kind of crushing us. This is in Reagan and era where, you know, I think money troubles are coming up. We feel like the town is being taken over by a real estate developer. Like what is left in this town? There's a panic going on here.
- [33:32]
Amy Nicholson
Oh, definitely. I mean, you have that one neighbor who's like going around Mr. Futterman complaining about how foreigners are invading and like linking foreigners to gremlins, like doing this kind of made in America 80s patriotism. That was happening a lot in the time you got.
- [33:49]
Gizmo (voice or character)
You got to watch out for them foreigners, cuz they plant gremlins in their machinery. That's the same gremlins brought down our planes in the big one. Big, that's right, World War II, good old WWII. You know, they're still shipping them over here. They put them in the cars, they put them in the tv, they put them in. And the stereos and the radios you stick in your ears. I put them in their watches. They got little teeny gremlins for our watches.
- [34:20]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
I don't think it's such a good idea that you drive home.
- [34:21]
Amy Nicholson
Why don't you walk home? I mean, the 80s are a time in which that like 1950s style nuclear small town happiness was definitely crumbling apart. And I like that when you have say that poor mother who shows up to accost the mean bank lady who's being very, you know, I'll get you my pretty with a dog that not only is this woman begging for help and not receiving it, but that Joe Dante just cranks up the pathos. I mean, listen to the kids. They're coughing, they're sick, they're hungry.
- [34:53]
American Express Ad Voice
Couldn't you get Mr. Corbin to just give us a little more time?
- [34:57]
Amy Nicholson
Mrs. Harris, the bank and I have
- [35:00]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
the same purpose in life, to make money, not to support a lot of deadbeats.
- [35:08]
Amy Nicholson
Mrs. Deagle, it's Christmas.
- [35:14]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
Well, now you know what to ask
- [35:15]
Amy Nicholson
Santa for, don't you?
- [35:20]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
Mommy, I'm so good.
- [35:21]
Amy Nicholson
Yes, honey, so am I. And meanwhile, as they're being so pathetic, there's that great synth soundtrack in the background that's just hilarious.
- [35:30]
Paul Scheer
I love this. Now I want to bring it into the now and say that there's something about this movie. I've read, actually two really interesting essays about it. One saying this is the most maga coded movie. And then somebody else going, no, no, I actually think it's the least maga coded movie. But I'm going to tell you both sides of it, right?
- [35:54]
Gizmo (voice or character)
The.
- [35:55]
Paul Scheer
The maga version of it being like, foreigners. These gremlins are smuggled in. They refuse to assimilate. They multiply uncontrollably. They trash the. The American way. This beautiful town, right? They destroy Christmas. You know, it's this horde overrunning this sleepy white town, except for, of course, a science teacher played by Glenn Turman, who was in Cooley High, who we interviewed here on the show and did an episode on. But, like, you know, so there's a version of this movie where you look at it like that. Like, what's going on here? We're talking about this wrestling between America and foreigners. And then there's this other essay that kind of views it differently. It's like, no, actually, the gremlins are the embodiment of. Of white America's fear of immigrants, right? It. Like it's. It's this, what you're talking about, this capitalism, wanting to sell it, you know, and. And really disregarding anything just for the almighty dollar, right? You're. Everyone is just working. I mean, even Phoebe Cates, she continues to work at that bar serving those gremlins. Like, why not leave, right? You know, but she's. They're not threatening her.
- [37:03]
Amy Nicholson
We've got our jobs to do.
- [37:05]
Paul Scheer
Exactly.
- [37:06]
Amy Nicholson
Even when you're under attack, you can't get fired.
- [37:09]
Paul Scheer
But I think at the end of the movie, we have, you know, this Chinese shopkeeper basically criticizing Western society. Like, you have exploited this gift. You don't understand it, right? And so I think it's interesting to look at this movie under the, you know, in those two different ways. You know, like, we can't have anything good because we're gonna put it through our own filter. And that could be through the mass media machine. That could be through, you know, just wanting to sell it. Or we can look at it as, this is why we have to be afraid we can't let anything else in. But we are. I think. I tend to think that this movie is about how consumerism is and fantasy, with the media of it all actually destroys a lot of things. Cause it takes away our responsibility. And all of a sudden, all we needed was a handful of people to be responsible. And nobody was.
- [38:07]
Amy Nicholson
Nobody was. I think you're exactly right about all of it. I think it is about all of those things. I mean, the first thing that Gizmo's owner says when he shows up to reclaim his friend is not like, even how dare you? Which he does give that lecture, but he specifically says this.
- [38:24]
Gizmo (voice or character)
You teach him to watch television.
- [38:29]
Amy Nicholson
That's the first thing he zeroes in on. You taught him to watch tv. So I definitely think there is a lot of media criticism in here. You know, they show up, they're like, oh, look, it's a gun. I do love the way they talk. I do like the way they say Milk Duds. All of that is wonderful. But on top of it, what's happening as they're trying to contain the gremlins within this town is basically that Billy runs around and blows up everything.
- [39:00]
Paul Scheer
Oh, I mean, it's a massive.
- [39:02]
Amy Nicholson
Runs around and blows up everything. He blows up the movie theater, which is a terrible idea because, like, think about it. They even mentioned this in the original script. You blow up the movie theater, you start a fire there, but the sprinklers are gonna go on, you big dummy. And you're just going to make more of them. Like, this town gets destroyed not only because of the gremlins, but because of the things we're doing to combat them, which are arguably as bad or worse.
- [39:24]
Paul Scheer
I mean, I don't want to keep on going down this psychological rabbit hole, but Gizmo.
- [39:27]
Amy Nicholson
But I think it's because it's here, right?
- [39:29]
Paul Scheer
I mean, well, Gizmo is a metaphor, right? For us, like, when we are. When we are at our best, we can be kind and loving and good. But when we are anxious or vulnerable or nervous, we can turn monstrous, right? Like, it's like our overstimulation, our fear, our indulgence makes us problematic, right? You know, the Gizmo part of us is the one that wants this, you know, connection and safety, but we are. But the minute we feel, you know, we feel under attack, we start attacking. And I think that that's really an interesting way of looking. And I think a smart decision here, too, because by keeping one character not turned and resisting all those urges, I think it gives us a Little bit of hope.
- [40:23]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah, I think so, too. Although I feel so sad for Gizmo over and over again in this movie. I mean, he is whirling in pain when water gets spilled on him.
- [40:32]
Paul Scheer
Oh, yeah.
- [40:33]
Amy Nicholson
And nobody really comforts him. You know, they're just like, oh, okay, whatever. In fact, then right after that, he, like, goes to see Glinturb and the professor and he just puts more water in him. Makes another one. For a second, it looks like Gizmo and the new one, the new clone of Gizmo. Maybe they could be friends. They're kind of reaching for each other, but it's like, nah, you're separated. Then they take the second Gizmo, put him in a box, and then they, you know, torture him, too. I mean, they really torture him. The movie is not at all on his side. When you're hearing Glyn Turman approach him with the syringe.
- [41:07]
Gizmo (voice or character)
Give me your arm, buddy. Come on. Come on. Give me on. No, no, this is not gonna hurt. This isn't gonna hurt on a big guy like you. Come on.
- [41:19]
Amy Nicholson
By the way, that score underneath him in the syringe, I love that because you're hearing in the score a little bit of the musical variation of the Gizmo theme, that kind of musical song that he's teaching to Billy. When they sit down at the keyboard, this scene right here, You're hearing those same notes underneath the syringe sound, but. But they're like twisted and broken and hurt and slow. And it's almost like instead of learning from each other, like we were a minute ago with the keyboard, they're learning horrible lessons from us. They're learning warped lessons, that this is a species that hurts each other. And actually doing this movie a couple episodes after Close Encounters, it feels like they're in conversation.
- [42:20]
Paul Scheer
Oh, absolutely. I mean, that image of the science teacher and God knows what they did to his face is so powerful because the syringes in his leg, like, they gave it back to him.
- [42:31]
Amy Nicholson
It's pointed. We did to you what you did to us.
- [42:35]
Paul Scheer
And I have to say, for a movie that uses, you know, full blown puppetry, there is something so real about these fake ass looking creatures. Like, I mean, right? Like, they. They are. I can't quite figure it out because it's wonderful, but anywhere else, some of these creatures would look like the most schlocky thing. I don't know how they're able to pull off this working, right? Cause I've seen movies like Ghoulies and Munchies and Munchies, which is a ripoff of gremlins anyway. And it just doesn't work. Like they feel like puppets. But here, I don't know, I love. And obviously this was an impossible movie to make because of how many gremlins and how many creatures they had to make. There's sometimes just dozens on screen at the same time. Every gremlin is a combination of a rod puppet or a cable controlled head or an oversized puppet. It's like there's so much going on
- [43:43]
Amy Nicholson
here that go down to their feet. The proportions are so playful.
- [43:49]
Paul Scheer
But I guess there is something about it that they're like little mini Godzillas in a way. I don't know. Maybe it's just good creature. Maybe the answer is it's just really good creature design. And when it's artistic like this, they don't look as schlocky, but they are. Like, maybe in worse hands they would look shocky. I don't know, maybe I'm being too harsh on it. I just was looking at it. I was like, this is wild. These are. They're clearly puppets. But at the same time, I had to really take myself out to be like, no, no, they're clearly puppets. Like, you really get sucked in by them.
- [44:25]
Amy Nicholson
I mean, they look fantastic to me.
- [44:27]
Paul Scheer
Yeah. I mean, they're unbelievable.
- [44:28]
Amy Nicholson
They build like a bigger gizmo head for the gizmo closeups because they're so detailed. Like, he pouts, he sulks, his eyes get watery. He's doing a lot of things with his face. And by the way, he's inspired by this actual type of monkey, the tarsier, who is known for having the biggest eyes proportionate to their body than of any other mammal on the planet. Like, they have. I was watching an old nature special about them that was like, their eyes are bigger than their brain. But they are kind of similar to this. They're like carnivorous apes. Basically. They eat only insects. They're nocturnal. They live in the Philippines. They live in these trees. I mean, not only that, but they were thought of originally as almost forest spirits, because there were these small, little, tiny things. You can hold them in your hand and they would live in the trees and kind of rattle and shake. There's really great nature shows about them that always just describe them as the most interesting things on Earth.
- [45:23]
Tarsier Narrator
When I was hunting in the forest at night, I saw this strange little creature with huge eyes. I thought it was some sort of owl. I was so curious that I shot it. I went to pick it up and realized that it was not an owl, but this strange little animal about which I knew nothing at all. After I shot the tarsier, I found out that this animal belongs to the spirits that live in the belite tree. And the tarsiers are kept as pets. Legends say that if you harm a tasya, then you would become sick and suffer bad luck unless you apologize to the spirits for killing one of their pets.
- [45:59]
Amy Nicholson
So maybe that's part of the great creature design you're thinking of, is like they're coming from a little bit of a basic inspiration, but then being mutated in different ways. Getting this pet, like, look of Steven Spielberg's King Charles Cavalier spaniel. That's where the brown and white comes from. They originally had, like, floppy dog ears, but then they took that away. Cause that just looked too cute.
- [46:21]
Paul Scheer
Well, I mean, the eyes are doing so much work. I also think that the personality. We talked about that, like, that they're dressing up, that they all have a little bit of a personality. They're not just like monsters. Like, they are characters. And when you go to the movie theater, you see every character is doing something different. They're not just there as, like, stoic puppets. They're partying every. And that's, to me, when I look at that, it's kind of the way I feel about. And we talked about this last week on the Muppet episode. Like, the theater is alive. Like, there's so much stuff going on that I guess maybe as I'm talking about it, I'm realizing. I think this movie works because as much as it's a horror comedy, it's also camp. Right? There's something campy about this. And I go back to the original thought that Joe Dante made Piranha, which is a campier version of Jaws, or at least a nod to what an element of Jaws. Right? This is, like, in his DNA in a way. Like, you can still be scary as Piranha, but you can. It also can be ridiculous.
- [47:25]
Amy Nicholson
And he makes camp in a way where he loves camp. Like, he is happy to be making camp. He's not looking down on anything in this movie. He's having a gas with it. Like you were actually referencing a couple of episodes ago in our episode on. Nope. William Castle, who did all the Tangler stuff, you know, getting people into seats, shocking them, thrilling them. But Joe Dante is the guy who made Matinee, the movie that is about this kind of vibe that William Castle brought to theaters. That is what he loves to do. So you're exactly right that he can do it dead on. And I think also talking about your whole theory about why the gremlins feel real, the fact that they are acting individually, that they are acting as individual souls, maybe that's it, because we see a soul inside each one because they're all so different from each other. And you know what? They can even absorb good information, too. Like, they have potential to not just be completely manic when they're in the bar, one of the gremlins is like, you know what? I'm going to get really into jazz. And so all of that, like, all of that effort, not just in the creature design and how they move, but how they think, like, how they act. I mean, yes, the guy who did all of this, Chris Wallace, who is most famous at this moment for doing the melted heads in Raiders, you know, with the eyeballs and the eyeballs. Oh, so good. You can definitely see that here. Would go on to win the Oscar for doing the special effects in the Fly. Absolutely deserved. But here he's so exhausted trying to pull this movie off, he gets sick. He gets a kidney stone. He falls off a truck. He's on crutches. He put so much effort into getting this done, and it absolutely works. Welcome to Sephora. I'm looking for a perfume that's not too perfumey.
- [49:19]
Gizmo (voice or character)
I got you serum moisturizer or moisturizer serum.
- [49:24]
Paul Scheer
Let's get into layering.
- [49:25]
Amy Nicholson
My concealer is making me look worse. Sounds like the wrong shade. Let's get you matched.
- [49:32]
American Express Ad Voice
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- [49:38]
Amy Nicholson
Only at Sephora. Hi, I. Let's get you a basket.
- [49:44]
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- [50:18]
Paul Scheer
And I think that this is why this movie ultimately works. Everyone is firing on full thrusters, knowing what they want to accomplish and are committed to to doing the best version of it. Like, it feels like this is from top down. And I think this is Joe Dante making sure everyone is on the same page. And there's no better distillation of knowing what this movie is and what it can hold than the Phoebe Cates monologue. I mean, this Monologue shook me. And when you see it the first time, you're like, holy shit. How is this monologue about her dad dying in the chimney on Christmas in this film? It stops the movie dead in its tracks. Everything is insane up until that point. And we have this monologue that is played incredibly real. And it's not campy, and Billy's not campy. Right? Like, the. Like this moment, in many ways, I think just shows you, like, the understanding of what they want to do, which is like, if this is a Christmas movie and they're releasing it at Christmas, I know it came out in the summer, but if that was the original plan, they're releasing a Christmas movie in which a main character says, in a PG13 movie, Santa is not real. And like, Christmas, even though it's all nice and the town looks perfect, is a traumatic time for a lot of people. Like, whoa, this is. It's kind of awesome. And no wonder Warner Brothers like, please cut that scene out. We don't need that scene. And everybody fought for it and stayed in. But that's a hefty scene that just shows that they're so smart about what they're trying to convey here.
- [52:14]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
The house was freezing, so I went to try to light up the fire. And that's when I noticed the smell. Firemen came and broke through the chimney top. And me and mom were expecting them to pull out a dead cat or a bird. And instead they pulled out my father. He was dressed in a Santa Claus suit. He'd been climbing down the chimney on Christmas Eve. His arms floated with presents. He was gonna surprise us. He slipped and broke his neck. Died instantly. And that's how I found out there was no Santa Claus.
- [53:06]
Amy Nicholson
Well, yeah. I mean, that scene, that monologue was in the original script that Chris Columbus wrote. It was given to a different character who didn't exist in this version. Like a grown man. And not the cute. I think it's almost less an example of brilliance on the part of everybody making the movie. But trust in the fact that the director putting together this complete weird, wacky genre smash up movie. Smash up, he was calling it on the set. It's a wonderful lizard of Oz in hell that he knows what he's doing and you should just trust him, even if you don't get it. Like, Steven was like, Steven Spielberg was like, I don't understand the scene at all. But you know what? He's really willing to go to bat for this. Joe is. So I think we should just let him do it. It kind of reminds me of my favorite scene in Megan. You know, the movie with the killer doll from a couple years ago. There are no clips of this online. I wish I could find one. I don't know why I think it's the best moment in the movie, but you know how Megan kills that little bully boy in the park?
- [54:02]
Home Depot Ad Voice
Mm.
- [54:02]
Amy Nicholson
And then a cop comes to the house to tell the mom, hey, guess what? The kid is dead. Blah, blah, blah. As the cop is telling the mother about this little boy's death, he just starts laughing. And he's like, oh, I'm sorry. That's not really that funny. But he keeps laughing. That is the most sublime thing in that film. That cop laughing at a little kid's death and then trying to hold it together. And the same thing happened. I think, like, he was told he couldn't put that scene in the movie, but he was like, nobody else gets it. I'm going to bat for it. This is my. This is my Christmas speech. This is my Santa Claus is dead. And it's those little bits of weirdness. You know, when. When you as an audience member are watching a movie break its own rules, you know that a movie probably shouldn't be doing that. And once it does, you're like, oh, great, I can't expect anything anymore. Rule breaking is great.
- [54:49]
Paul Scheer
Well, I also think it. It stops the movie to be like, oh, death is real. We are in a cartoon world. These are cute creatures. People are being blended and microwaved and burnt. But this is gonna have consequences. And I think it helps ground the movie with some stakes before that third act. Right. It's like, this means something. And, you know, when you're doing cartoon the entire way through, you know, in the grand scheme of cartoons, like, if anvils are falling and all this other stuff is happening around our main characters, you have to remind us. But yet there's still a reason why we want to root for the. Why we want to root for the hero. And it does a great job of that because it does renew the stakes.
- [55:45]
Amy Nicholson
That's a really good point, actually. Yeah. That all of the people who die in this movie are going to stay dead. Which doesn't feel like it should be a great revelation, but in a little kids movie, you would half expect, you know, the teacher to be like, I'm fine, guys. I was just unconscious. But no, like, people need to be legitimately dead here.
- [56:04]
Paul Scheer
It just reminds you, anyone can die. And I think that is important because at the end of the movie, I forgot, like, the final beat. You Know, around the fountain and Gizmo in the car and Billy approaching and a gun coming out. There's so much going on there that, you know, you have your King Kong moment. You have Stripe climbing the. You know, the. The water fountain, and it's this. This kind of. This will be the end if Stripe pulls this off, forget about it. There's no return. And it feels like there is going to be no return. And I like that they keep the stakes high like this, that Stripe can't be beat. He does put his finger in the. You know, in the water. And it's Gizmo who understands that. No, no, you can't fight him. You have to use the rules against him. Like you said, the dark house. He realizes, oh, all we have to do is let in the light. And, you know, you can say that in a bunch of different metaphorical ways, but he lets in the light, and the light kills the darkness, and the light also kills the monster. Right. They got through the night. The monsters are in the night. And the night the day breaks, comes through, and the town is saved with, you know, and a lot of people are dead and a lot of destruction has happened. And I love that Gizmo breaks the rule to save the day.
- [57:29]
Amy Nicholson
That's true. You could imagine a version. No, you can't, actually, because I can't. It could be too sad where Gizmo dies in the sun because he's like, I let it in, and I have sacrificed myself to.
- [57:39]
Paul Scheer
Gizmo would just be like, ow. Bright light, bright light. Like, I think he could hide. I think it seems like if you close your eyes or. I don't know. Again, I'm not really sure.
- [57:49]
Amy Nicholson
Again, this. I mean, they can go into snow. Isn't snow water? I don't know.
- [57:53]
Paul Scheer
I. There's a lot of rules here that I feel like I don't. Again, I don't understand why they all don't look like. I mean, I guess if you break the rules, they become scaly. There's a. I'm not here to break down the logic of Gremlins, nor do I think this movie is meant to do it. We get it, ultimately. Um, but yeah.
- [58:13]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah, but still. Honestly, if I'm Stripe, these people have killed all of your siblings. You made more siblings? They killed them. Again, he's a little justified putting his finger in that fountain. I mean, really, what did they do? They put the dog in some Christmas lights, and then they got blended. Why?
- [58:30]
Paul Scheer
Well, wait a second. They. What? They. They were. Okay, These gremlins actively Worked to become evil. Right? Like, they unplug the clock, they lie, they're manipulating their own thing. They put the dog out there to get the neck. You know, they're up to no good. I mean, Stripe is. And look, the movie makes way more sense if Gizmo is Stripe, the cute thing becomes evil, sabotages the house. I think that's the only issue. That's like the only dig I would give on this movie. The simplicity of one becoming the bad one makes more thematic sense. You kind of have to, you know, you can kind of tell that this was a last minute addition because it's like, oh, wait, wait, this one's like just born a leader. Whereas if it was, if it was Gizmo the whole way through, it make. To me, it just feels like I get that more. Right. Does that make sense?
- [59:27]
Amy Nicholson
Because Gizmo is like a couple weeks older. He's got the maturity.
- [59:30]
Paul Scheer
Not even. I guess it's a sort of like it. To me, it's like, oh, that's what we can't do. We can't expose this person to light or give them food because they will become this evil creature. But like, to have one of the offspring become the evil one, but the rest of them are kind of just like followers. Like, it just. It's a little hard on the math. It's like, but why, like, if there were two of them and one stayed nice and one was evil, I could even buy that. But the fact that, like, they all were a part. I mean, they all bounced off of him in those furry balls. I don't know. I just think.
- [60:04]
Amy Nicholson
I don't know. I believe in alphas. I think alphas happen.
- [60:07]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
Sure.
- [60:07]
Paul Scheer
I guess you're right. I guess you're right. But I mean, but you would see how the script is cleaner if there is no Gizmo.
- [60:13]
Amy Nicholson
I would, I would. But I really like that Gizmo gets tortured by his own kind.
- [60:17]
Paul Scheer
Oh, I mean, I love Gizmo. I'm. I mean, I think it's the emotional core of the movie. I. Yeah.
- [60:22]
Amy Nicholson
Also wait, while I'm talking about even the dog getting tied up by the Christmas lights. That dog is one of the absolute best movie dogs I have ever seen. That dog is wonderful. It is a perfect dog. And I think that's also part of why these puppets come across so real, is the dog is looking at them like they are real. It wants to lick their ears. It, you know, growls a little bit. The dog, I think, reacts to them as though they are real. And that just adds to the 3D reality of everything that's happening in the scene.
- [60:50]
Paul Scheer
Oh, my God.
- [60:50]
Amy Nicholson
I don't know what kind of dog that is. Is that just a dog? Just a dog? It's not a type of dog. It's just a dog. Right.
- [60:56]
Paul Scheer
I mean, it feels like such a traditional. Like, this is my dog, you know, like, it's like a mix of all.
- [61:01]
Amy Nicholson
It's an 80s dog. It's just the most perfect dog. It almost breaks my heart because I don't know how I'd get a dog like that, because I don't even know what I would ask for. Just a dog.
- [61:10]
Paul Scheer
We should. We should say, you know, in. In many ways, that is Mushroom, who was playing the part of Barney, and just want to make sure, you know, we also know that Mushroom was in a pumpkinhead, you know?
- [61:25]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah. But he's a wonderful dog. He's got the most expressive eyebrows.
- [61:29]
Paul Scheer
I mean, that's also like. The dog from Back to the Future is one of the best dogs, too. I mean, these are like.
- [61:35]
Amy Nicholson
You know, I looked it up. Cause I thought maybe they were the same dog. Cause they're in that same key of dog. Like, not quite Benji, but their own thing. Close to Benji.
- [61:43]
Paul Scheer
Yes. I love it. You know, by the way, Barney was gonna be eaten by the gremlins, But Spielberg and Dante were like, no, that's too messed up. Barney will survive.
- [61:57]
Amy Nicholson
I've read the version of the script where he gets eaten, and it is pretty gross. Like, basically, Billy just comes downstairs and Barney is, like, flayed on the floor, and all the gremlins are covered in blood. It's the first sign that they're really bad.
- [62:09]
Paul Scheer
That is. I mean, it's. Again, all these things make sense, right? Like, I mean, there's a couple things that are nuts. Like, you know, like, we talked about, like, you know, that Billy finds his mom dead in the house. Like, her head came rolling down the stairs. That's like, Billy walk. Billy walks into a lot of trauma. Right. Maybe that speech works better after Billy has seen his mom's head roll down the stairs. His dog eaten alive. We see, you know, we see Corey Feldman killed. Um, you know, there was also. Did you read that scene in there where there's, like, a scene at the McDonald's where it's like. The McDonald's is like. Like, all the people are eaten, but the McDonald's burgers are untouched.
- [62:56]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah, yeah. That the gremlins eat, like a family, including the little kids, but they don't want to eat the meat at the McDonald's.
- [63:03]
Paul Scheer
Oh, my gosh.
- [63:04]
Amy Nicholson
I mean, Chris Columbus, he's like, firing on all cylinders. He's like, someday I'm going to do a Harry Potter. And you'll never guess that I was this crazy.
- [63:12]
Paul Scheer
There's so much here that is kind of wonderful. And I feel like this has to be on some level, the power of having Spielberg produce your film. I can't imagine, you know, all the things, all the battles that they got into on this where Spielberg had to step in and be like, just trust them. Let them make their thing. And you have to trust him. Or he has a track record. And I feel like for such a long time. I know you talked about, like, you've said in the past, like, oh, Spielberg kind of sets this, you know, this kind of tone, that maybe we got too much, too much Spielberg in our DNA. But I kind of feel like I
- [64:01]
Amy Nicholson
still think is true. But I like where you're going with this.
- [64:04]
Paul Scheer
Yeah, I think that, like, giving Joe Dante this amazing a chance to make this is pretty cool. And you go even to movies like, you know, Back to the Future to give, like, Zemeckis this other movie where there are weird things and we talked about it on our episode, but, like, he's a pervert. And there's. There's choices made in those movies that are not, I guess, like, fully sanitized, approved choices and they make for more interesting films.
- [64:32]
Amy Nicholson
It's true. I mean, I get nervous every time we go back to this early Amblin era because I'm always worried that I'm gonna realize that these movies actually aren't very good. You know, like, I really get nervous that I'm seeing Gremlins through a lens of nostalgia because I think we're prone. Like, I'm definitely at that age where I'm gonna be like, oh, back in my day, you know, And I don't wanna do that. So it's always a relief to go back to something like Gremlins and be like, no, this is just incredibly creative, risky, thoughtful filmmaking.
- [65:03]
Paul Scheer
I mean, think of it like if you look at the Amblin slate, Gremlins is like the first one. Then it's Goonies. Goonies. We've talked about a lot of weird choices in that Back to the Future. American Tail, very straight down the middle. But Don Bluth, right?
- [65:18]
Amy Nicholson
I have been trying to do American Tail on the show for so long. I would love to do American Tail.
- [65:23]
Paul Scheer
And then you get who Framed Roger Rabbit, which is completely bonkers and fun. And we've talked about that on this show as well. Like, we've talked about a lot of these antler movies. And then you go on to like Jurassic park, that's Spielberg. But then Twister and Men in Black. Like a lot of directors were getting a chance to make a big budget movie on the shoulders of Steven Spielberg, just believing in them.
- [65:48]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah. And I think that's really the gift that somebody at the top of the game can do. Right. Is you bring other people up and you take risks. The fact that he was not like, I'm going to squash piranha, but I'm going to see if this guy who made a movie about tiny, rabid, chewing monsters that, you know, you cannot be near water around, what if he can do this movie? Like, that's creative, that's fun. That's like thinking about raising people up
- [66:13]
Paul Scheer
when in rewatching this movie. And I listened to the director's commentary track a little bit more this time just cause I've seen it so many times, I was like, I don't need to like watch every scene. And it really is. I just absolutely love that Joe Dante got a chance to take what he was doing and do it on a big budget level. And you know, I recently watched Innerspace, which comes out a couple years later, which is so fun and weird. And if you've not seen it, Dennis Quaid, Martin Short, Meg Ryan, you know, Dennis Quaid has shrunk down and put inside Martin Short's body. Oh, you've never seen that movie?
- [66:49]
Amy Nicholson
I've never seen this.
- [66:50]
Paul Scheer
Oh, Inner Space is one of my favorite movies. Oh, the entire movie is. Oh, Amy, you gotta watch. Is really fun. And then he makes like the burbs and you know, he does these really cool movies are a little left to center. I mean, I also have a lot of love for the Explorers, which I believe he directed as well. Right? Yeah, he did. You know, that's with Ethan Hawke and River Phoenix and the kids go to outer space. It's like, oh, man. Love, love, love. Yeah. Joe Dante is really responsible for a lot of these weirder ideas that I don't think movies are doing in that same way for kids. I think that the ideas are a lot more sanitized now.
- [67:37]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
And.
- [67:38]
Paul Scheer
And that's why when we see something like Spider Verse or, you know, you know, even the Minions, it's like, the Minions are weird and they're getting weirder and I love that. Like, I just think it's important to. To make stuff that feels sloppy and gross and, you know, it's like, we're missing that. That energy of, like, Garbage Pail Kids. And I think it's really important for kids to feel that they have something like that. Like, yeah, Pokemon cards are great, but Garbage Pail Kids, you want to be like, ooh. You know, it's like, I want. I want that thing. I want creatures. I want, you know, something to feel like it's not of this world.
- [68:25]
Amy Nicholson
I mean, I feel weird saying this. Should we do Minions?
- [68:31]
Paul Scheer
No.
- [68:31]
Barney the Dog (voice or character)
Really?
- [68:33]
Paul Scheer
No. I mean, I'm fine with Minions. I like Minions just in. I like Minions a lot. Minions to me, are like a silent movie, which are great, but maybe as we do our summer recap, we can spend a little bit of time on this new Minions movie, which looks to me like the fun, weird one. Minions and Monsters, where the Minions go to Hollywood to make a monster movie.
- [68:56]
Amy Nicholson
Yeah, this is the first Minions I'm actually looking forward to. I'm really looking forward to this one. I hope it's good.
- [69:00]
Paul Scheer
I know it feels to me like this is the direction I want it to be, going towards. The last Minions movie I liked as well. And, you know, I think I have a shirt that's coming out for Unspooled that just says Minions over Despicable Me. Because I don't know if I like the Despicable Me stuff as much as I like the Minions stuff.
- [69:24]
Gizmo (voice or character)
I warned you with Mokwai comes much responsibility, but you didn't listen. And you see what happens. I didn't mean it. You do with Mokwai what your society has done with all of nature's gifts. You do not understand. You are not ready.
- [69:50]
Paul Scheer
You're probably wondering, Paul, what do you have next week? Well, we got a real treat for you. We are talking about a movie that is not only a classic, but a favorite of mine. That's right, 1979's the Muppet Movie. And we'll be talking with writer, director, showrunner Ben David Grabinski. He rebooted Are youe Afraid of the Dark. He co show ran Scott Pilgrim takes off on Netflix, and his new film, Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice, is available right now on Disney Hulu. So I cannot wait to talk to Ben David about this film. He just saw it at the TCM Festival with some of the cast. I mean, not the cast, really, just Paul Williams, who talked about his process with Jim Henson. He brings those insights to us. So, anyway, can't wait for that. We're going to continue this conversation about Gremlins on our substack. Every week we go in depth a little bit deeper with great clips and little pieces of interviews that we couldn't fit into the episode. As always, we have an amazing new line of merch. I hope you've gotten your Odyssey shirt. People have been buying that and that's been awesome. We also have a really great Terry Gilliam shirt. You just go to unspooled.dashery.com for that. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineer premiered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now.
- [71:46]
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