An American Tail

Summary

Unspooled Podcast: “An American Tail”

Hosts: Paul Scheer & Amy Nicholson
Release Date: July 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode examines Don Bluth's 1986 animated film An American Tail, a childhood favorite of Amy and a point of complicated nostalgia for Paul. Together, the hosts dissect the film's craft, themes of immigration and assimilation, its legacy in animation history, and how it emotionally lands—then and now. The conversation ranges from Don Bluth's legendary split from Disney to the nuanced traumas and triumphs of the Mousekewitz family, and the broader genre of mouse-centric animation. The hosts also dig into differing critical takes, its poignant yet controversial depiction of immigrant struggle, and their own personal attachments and criticisms.

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Don Bluth’s Flight from Disney & the Rise of An American Tail

[06:50 – 11:10]

• Amy gives a brisk biography of Don Bluth, noting his start as a teenage Disney animator, his Mormon mission, return in 1971, and eventual departure due to Disney's corporatization.
• “By the end of that decade, he's disillusioned… Disney in the 70s is getting too corporate. They're not taking the craft of animation as seriously anymore.” (Amy, 07:20)
• On his birthday, Bluth forms his own studio with other ex-Disney animators. Their first film: The Secret of NIMH (1982)—a dark, visually rich animated feature that impresses Steven Spielberg.
• Spielberg, wanting into animation through his Amblin Productions, teams with Bluth on a film pitch inspired by Russian Jewish immigration, ultimately birthing An American Tail.
• “You couldn't have picked it better. You leave Disney and then you beat Disney at their own game.” (Paul, 10:53)
• First major studio animated film released simultaneously in English and Spanish. Budget: $9M. Box office: $85M (biggest animated film upon release).

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Story, Structure & Animated Style

[09:21 – 13:20]

• The film follows the Mousekewitz family, Russian Jewish mice escaping Cossack pogroms, separated en route to America, centering on young Fievel’s odyssey through New York’s immigrant underworld.
• Amy details the colorful supporting cast—French, Italian, Irish, and German mice paralleling the American melting pot.
• “It’s dark, I mean, in tone, but also in its palette… incredibly distinctive.” (Paul, 11:33)
• Discussion of Don Bluth's signature animation—hand-painted, lushly detailed, earthy, and more overtly “frightening” than Disney’s by design.
• “Don Bluth really believes… old Disney believed in making films that did scare children because he wanted children to know that evil is something that can be overcome.” (Amy, 12:37)
• [13:33] Don Bluth (archival): “Animation is a language of symbols…a subconscious language...to teach ideas or to teach principles, and probably the viewer doesn’t even know he’s being taught.”

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Mouse Movies & Perspective

[15:58 – 18:29]

• Noted “Mouse Movie Boom” of mid-80s: The Secret of NIMH, Disney's The Great Mouse Detective, An American Tail.
• “It plays into some of the core issues of children feeling like they're smaller than the rest, feeling like there's danger around the corner...” (Paul, 16:29)
• Mice as universal metaphors for smallness, vulnerability, survival, and childlike point of view.

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Narrative Structure: Episodic vs. Emotional

[17:21 – 19:20, 24:30 – 25:25, 49:59 – 50:53]

• Paul critiques the episodic, vignette-like quality: “Everything…feels like vignettes…just running from scene to scene…The emotional component doesn’t feel as rich as a Disney film.” (Paul, 17:21)
• Amy disagrees, citing the father/son separation arc and the film’s potent melodies: “When the Mousekowitzes finally reunite, I tear up every single time because it’s just so sad. You have the score working on you…it’s pulling on you…they're calling his name forever.” (Amy, 18:39)
• Paul sees the plot as a series of near-misses rather than emotionally satisfying chapters: “It's like a story of near misses in a way…” (Paul, 25:09)
• Later, Paul admits: “It just didn’t feel like a movie to me. It just felt all too easy…everything just happens to him [Fievel].” (Paul, 49:59)

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Engaging with History and Ethnicity

[25:29 – 29:20, 31:15 – 31:52, 56:12 – 61:13]

• Paul argues the film underplays its Jewish specificity, turning it into a broader immigrant story: “It’s like, yes, they’re celebrating Hanukkah…But I feel like they don’t fully address it…I feel like this movie is slightly sanitized in that way.” (Paul, 25:29)
• Amy appreciates the film’s tapestry of immigrant experiences: “I like that they get on the boat with all of the other people who are leaving Europe, and you realize everybody is just sharing the same trauma…universality of it.” (Amy, 28:31)
• The hosts discuss the “There Are No Cats in America” song as a kind of bittersweet, broken-dreams moment.
• Notable historic tidbit: First major studio animated film released in English and Spanish at the same time ([31:39]).

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Tone: Bleakness, Sweetness, and Critic Reactions

[31:52 – 36:34]

• Amy notes early critics found the movie “too sweet”—contrasted with its evident darkness today: pogroms, orphanhood, sweatshops, child labor, organized crime.
• Paul: “If this came out today, people would be like, whoa…this is dark.” (32:59)
• Amy recalls Art Spiegelman’s anxiety over An American Tail potentially undermining his graphic novel Maus: “He tried to shut it down, but he couldn’t really prove they stole the idea.” (35:39)
• Film’s ending seen by Paul as possibly too assimilationist: “Maybe that ending is a little bit too sweet…we love the melting pot…” (35:52)

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Labor, Activism, and the Realities of American Struggle

[37:10 – 38:22, 45:22 – 48:46]

• Amy highlights the film’s embrace of labor themes and collective action: Bridget’s protest (“This is America. We have free speech. You can say cat here…” [37:10]); even more explicitly developed in later sequels.
• Paul: “He started collective action…he is a spark that helps…You know, he got people to stop quitting.” (48:15)
• Movie’s mechanical cat climax and “happy ending” discussed versus real-world labor strife and cycles of exploitation.

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Character Critique & Comparative Analysis

[50:08 – 53:51, 71:07 – 74:31]

• Both hosts call out underdeveloped side characters, especially Tiger the vegetarian cat (“there is no such thing!” — Amy, 50:32), and a lack of satisfactory setup for friendships/reversals.
• Paul: “Maybe I don’t like Fievel. Maybe I think that, like, Fievel is just cute and sad, right?” (53:51)
• Paul launches a comparison with Finding Nemo: “Nemo is a much better character than Fievel…[he] craves independence…when they connect…they both have grown…It’s not just repetitive.” (71:07)
• Amy: “Fievel is just a seven-year-old learning what danger is.” (72:23)

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Artistic Legacy & Don Bluth’s Place in Animation

[74:31 – 78:40]

• Amy praises Bluth for upholding high standards in an era where TV animation declined in quality: “He is worried that somebody has to stand up in the 80s and teach kids the animation is bigger than what you just see every Saturday morning.” (74:48)
• Bluth’s production required “reverse immigration”—outsourcing to a non-union Irish studio, in direct contrast to the film’s pro-labor messaging. Bluth’s real-world troubles included brick-throwing picketers.
• Unique neon color palettes of Bluth’s era praised.

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Emotional Resonance and Musical Impact

[80:57 – 81:41]

• Amy: “I prefer musicals where the people can’t sing…I love it when a character sings and their voice is kind of cracky. And that’s what you hear in Fievel right here.” ([80:57]—plays “Somewhere Out There”)
• Paul: “This song was nominated for best song of the year. Lost out to ‘Take My Breath Away’ from Top Gun.” ([81:25])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On Don Bluth & Disney

• “Don Bluth is a guy who really believes in Walt. He loves Walt. He doesn’t love the Disney corporation.” (Amy, 12:37)
• “You leave Disney and then you beat Disney at their own game.” (Paul, 10:53)

On the Film’s Dark Tone

• “This is the most downbeat children’s movie since Return to Oz, which began…with Dorothy being strapped down for electroshock therapy.” (Paul, quoting a 1986 critic, 33:05)
• “I think maybe…this movie is so bleak, so dark…And then there is also this lightness of Spielberg going through it. It’s almost two different tones.” (Paul, 64:02)

On Immigration & Identity

• “It’s a tapestry of different people forming this country.” (Amy, 28:31)
• “This is a general immigration story, but it also has some very strong specifics.” (Paul, 31:15)
• “To me, what’s moving about this movie isn’t that America is a great place. It's…that you can work to make this country live up to what it professes to be about, you know?” (Amy, 58:47)

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Final Thoughts

Paul's Closing Take:
Wrestles with why the film feels emotionally "empty" despite admiring its artistry and themes; feels characters and arcs are too generic, story too episodic, but credits the film for being a crucial step in the evolution of American animation.

Amy’s Closing Take:
Continues to champion the film for its radical blend of darkness and hope, universal yet specific insights into the immigrant experience, labor activism, and emotional authenticity—especially for children's cinema.

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Key Timestamps

• [06:50 – 11:10]: Don Bluth’s break from Disney & launch of Don Bluth Productions
• [13:33 – 14:40]: Don Bluth’s philosophical views on animation
• [18:39]: Emotional power of the family reunion
• [25:29 – 29:20]: Debate on Jewish specificity vs. broader immigrant narrative
• [31:52 – 33:48]: Early critical reception: “too sweet” or “bleak”?
• [37:10]: Bridget’s protest and labor themes
• [53:51]: Paul’s issues with Fievel’s character depth
• [71:07 – 72:14]: Paul’s comparison: Fievel vs. Nemo
• [80:57]: “Somewhere Out There” sung by Fievel

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For Further Discussion

• The episode ends with a tease for next week’s subject: Drive (2011), directed by Nicolas Winding Refn.
• Paul and Amy invite listeners to continue the conversation on their Substack and Discord.

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The hosts’ dialogue mixes gently irreverent humor, emotional insight, and enthusiastic film scholarship—making it engaging and accessible both for fans of the movie and those new to its story. If you’re curious about how American animation shook off the doldrums of the early ’80s and began speaking to kids and adults alike, or what a bleak mouse saga can still teach us about America, this is a can’t-miss episode.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Amy Nicholson]

The year is 1986.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Where is your papa? Your mama?

[Child Character Voice]

I don't know. They want to go to America.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Ah, then you are in luck, my little immigrant. This is America.

[Child Character Voice]

America? I thought it was bigger.

[Amy Nicholson]

The movie An American Tale. Hello, and welcome to Unspooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed them, we have

[Amy Nicholson]

covered the AFI top 100, and now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterboxd top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb top 250, and the New York Times 1000 essential films.

[Paul Scheer]

And we will also be chasing our own curiosity too, like we are today when we are finally able to evaluate an Amy Nicholson fave. That's right. An American Tale. Don Bluth striking back at Disney. And the only reason this is so high on our list is because of you, Amy. I hope you are happy. I hope you are happ.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'll be happy until you trash a movie that is a beloved thing to me since my childhood.

[Paul Scheer]

Amy. What's not to love? A kid's movie about pogroms. Anyway, I am Paul Scheer. I am an actor, a writer and director, and like I've mentioned before, this was my mom's wedding song. Somewhere out there as she got remarried to a man that she did divorce, who is much written about in the book that I wrote. Joyful recollections of trauma. But yes, it forever lives in my mind. There were so many fievel things in my home, because when people associate you with some sort of a character or a film, all they do is give you more of that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for the Los Angeles Times. And I am suddenly realizing this might be an episode where I play therapist to Paul. Here we go.

[Paul Scheer]

No, not at all. Actually. I. I just feel so familiar with this film. And I'll just go on record right away and say, and I wasn't a fan of it when I was a kid, but yet it was in my life and I wasn't not a fan. It just was like, yeah, it's fine. It, like, this movie to me falls in that era of animated films like the Rescuers down under, right? It's just like, oh, it's before the. The new Disney, the. The Little Mermaid, the Lion King, right? It's the old school style of animation. I love Don Bluth. I've lost many a quarter playing Space Ace and Dragon's Lair, but no, it. It's a weird film for me because I feel like it's a part of me, but yet watching it, it felt pretty new.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you really shut your giant mouse ears and mouse eyes and didn't see it for decades, given your family history.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, you know, I mean, honestly, Amy, I have no emotional or even psychological attachment to this positively or negatively. I just remembered as a kid that I thought it was really lame that my mom wedding song was, like, from an animated film that was, like, currently in the theaters. Like, it just felt like. I don't know, but something just set off an alarm bell in my head, like, I don't like this.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think this is a good time to remind listeners what your wedding song was.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, my wedding song was, you know, the Usher classic. Yeah. With Little John and Ludacris, by the way. I stand by it. I stand by it. Because you know what? It was a celebration of our love, that song. Really. You know, we met in the club and that was.

[Amy Nicholson]

You met in the club?

[Paul Scheer]

No, we did not meet in the club.

[Amy Nicholson]

I always thought y' all met doing comedy.

[Paul Scheer]

No, we did not meet in the club.

[Amy Nicholson]

You met in a comedy club?

[Paul Scheer]

No, no. I mean, like, we tell everybody, you know, this is these lines, you know, of the. Yeah. Song. I was like. I said to June, you know, some sometime want to be your lover. And she's like, sometime want to be your friend. I said, sometime want to hug you. And she said, hold hands, slow dance while the record spin. That was the way that we spoke to each other.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, great. See, romance. Romance takes many forms.

[Paul Scheer]

And now I know you're not married, but what would be your wedding song? Is there a song that you would pick to, you know, I mean, I guess it would have to be specific to the relationship, but we kind of pushed that outside, you know, we said, let's have a fun song, and we had a bunch of people dance to it.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think that's beautiful. I don't know. My boyfriend is suddenly incredibly into doom metal. I'm very nervous that if we bother getting married someday, which terrifies me. Yeah, it'll be doom metal. He's just really telling me about doom metal. Doom. New doom metal band names, how they all have bong in them, like Bongzilla. It's really a thing.

[Paul Scheer]

It's like ska, right? When ska was in every ska band name. Well, I mean, you know, if you saw the invite, it probably is not making, you know, a path for you to get married, I would imagine. I think that you know, the invite really starts off with a quote from Oscar Wilde, basically saying, you'll never be happy if you're married. Now, I find that not to be true, but. But I think for each their own.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I will say this, I will say this. We have a dream person that we want to perform our wedding. Ooh, they did say yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

But I'm just worried at any minute this yes might turn no before we get our act together and bother actually doing it.

[Paul Scheer]

Wait, so, Amy, is this, like, a breaking story? Like, you guys are talking about getting married?

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, yeah, but we're being real lazy about it.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. Wow, wow, wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

This one certain person, okay, continues to agree to marry us. If we ever, like, really make this work, then, wow, that's all. We just want to kind of get married. For the fun story, I.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, now I am fascinated. I hope I get an invite.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts I. I can't stop.

[Amy Nicholson]

Scratch my downtown. Yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here

[Paul Scheer]

to talk about my downtown.

[Amy Nicholson]

Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

There's no question too embarrassing for Amazon Health AI. Chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24. 7. Health care just got less painful

[Amy Nicholson]

unschooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, anyway, the year is 1986. My mother is in love. And an animator named Don Bluth is deep into his schism with Walt Disney. See, he used to love Disney. He grew up obsessed with their cartoons. That he got a job as an assistant on sleeping beauty in 1955 when he was a teenager. And he, you know, just never wanted to leave.

[Amy Nicholson]

Except he had to leave. He had to leave Disney to go on his Mormon mission in Argentina that he went to college.

[Don Bluth]

Eventually.

[Amy Nicholson]

Don Booth comes back to Disney in 1971, where he works on Robin Hood, the Rescuers, Pete's Dragon. But by the end of that decade, he's disillusioned. He thinks that Disney has lost its way. It's not like it was when he was a kid or when he was a teenager. Even Disney in the 70s is getting too corporate. They're not taking the craft of animation as seriously anymore. So on his birthday, Don Bluth quits and he forms a new company, Don Bluth Productions, with two other Disney animators, Gary Goldman and John Pomeroy. By the end of the year, he's going to have 14 ex Disney employees at his very tiny studio.

[Paul Scheer]

Kind of like the pre Pixar, right? You know, in a way, like, they kind of broke off and Made their own thing. Anyway, in 1982, they released their first feature, the Secret of NIMH. And one of its big fans is Steven Spielberg. I'll also say I am a huge fan of the Secret of nimh. I thought that movie was awesome or scary. I don't know. It holds another special place in my heart. Now, Spielberg had been wanting his newly formed Amblin Studios to get into animation, too. And his then producer, Kathleen Kennedy hears a pitch from an artist named David Kirschner about an immigration story inspired by his grandmother's trip from Russia to America, where her little brother got lost on the boat.

[Amy Nicholson]

And they love this pitch at Amblin. And Spielberg's like, oh, my family also came from Russia. I'm very much on board with doing a movie about this. Spielberg even kind of pulls a gremlins where they're like, oh, we have to give Spielberg his little nice thing. You know, Spielberg's dog is kind of like the dog in Gremlins here. Spielberg is like the little lost mouse. He has to be named for my immigrant grandfather, Fievel.

[Paul Scheer]

I love this. Now, American tale is directed by Don Bluth and written by Tony Geiss and Judy Freeberg, who both used to work on Sesame Street. And it's a story of a Russian Jewish family called the Mouse's who are forced to leave Russia during the late 19th century. Pogroms, you know, human victims are attacked by Cossacks, and mice victims were attacked by Kos cats.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yes. Now this family of the mouse is Papa, Mama, fal, Fal's sister Tanya, and a baby who, you know, the animators keep forgetting about. They all set sail from Hamburg to New York, but FAL gets thrown overboard during a storm. He washes up in America alone. And he does meet some nice Americans. There's a French pigeon named Honoree. There's an Italian mouse named Tony. There's an Irish mouse named Bridget. There's a wealthy German mouse named Gussie. And there's a friendly American cat named Tiger.

[Paul Scheer]

He's a vegetarian cat, I would say, you know, just to make sure everyone knows that's why the mice are associating with Dom DeLuise, the cat.

[Amy Nicholson]

Now, all cats, not all cats.

[Paul Scheer]

And they also bump into other Americans who range from morally dubious to actually evil. Like a corrupt Irish mouse politician and a crooked gang boss who pretends to be a rat but is actually a cat. Now, this movie was released on November 21, 1986, right before Thanksgiving, during the year of the hundredth anniversary of the statue of Liberty now to compete against it. Disney re released Song of the south on that same weekend. Not reading the room, Disney. Not reading the room at all. The film cost $9 million. I mean, how was it so cheap? Well, we'll get into that. And it made 85 million, making it the highest grossing animated film of all time upon its release. Now, I did not realize that, like, this was not only a massive hit, but it was the biggest of all time. And I could imagine that that sent shockwaves through Disney. I mean, you couldn't have picked it better. You leave Disney and then you beat Disney at their own game.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I mean, I think this film, as much as anything from Don Bliss Productions, is kind of responsible for us eventually getting like, the Disney animation rebirth that we see with Little Mermaid coming out a few years later. This was like, oh, no, we have to really take this threat seriously in this movie. I just felt like was the biggest thing in the world, honestly. Oh, yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, there's something so beautiful about Don Bluth animation. It's incredibly distinctive. And, and I think what I love about it visually is it. It feels like a throwback to that era of Disney that Don Bluth first started working in, that Sleeping Beauty, that really beautifully hand drawn painted images. And it also is incredibly current as well. Like, it is bridging a gap that I think seems incredibly intentional. Like, there's a lot of. Of artistry here. And I remember that with Secret of Ninh, it felt to me like, whoa, animation can look like that and that. And that's why, I mean, as a kid, I spent so much time playing those video games, watching these movies, because there is just something in his stroke or something in his color palette that makes this seem so distinctive. You know, this is not a Disney movie. I mean, it's dark, I mean, in tone, but also in its palette and

[Amy Nicholson]

color palette, it's very brown and gray. And you get to New York and it looks kind of dirty. There's cockroaches. It's animated cockroaches everywhere. It's an underbelly of a city. It. I, I will say that, like, Don Bluth really believes in something that he felt like old Disney believed in. And when I say old Disney, I guess I'll just mean Walt. Like, Don Bluth is a guy who really believes in Walt. He loves Walt. He doesn't love the Disney Corporation. And he feels like with Walt, you know, he made frightening Disney classics on purpose. He wanted to make films that did scare children because he wanted children to know that Evil is something that can be overcome. And if you make a kids movie that's too cheerful or the villains aren't that scary, you kind of take away this psychological purpose.

[Paul Scheer]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And he had this one real interesting interview around this time that he was doing Don Bluth on television with a Swedish interviewer that I kind of want to play because you're surprised at where they go, but then they're vibing very hardcore.

[Don Bluth]

I think it's Sigmund Freud and Walt Disney. Interesting. Okay, Sigmund Freud. Why do you. Why do you put those two together?

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Because Sigmund Freud discovered or invented the subconsciousness, and Walt Disney used it, Exploded it.

[Don Bluth]

Yes, I certainly do. You know what? I would have to. I would have to agree with you, and I'll tell you why. And it's because what I know about animation is that it's a language of symbols. And so it's a subconscious language. Oftentimes, what you're looking at when you see an animated film, you look at it on. On the conscious level, but on the subconscious level, you really don't know what you're looking at. And the symbols are used to teach ideas or to teach principles, and probably the viewer doesn't even know he's being taught. It's really true. I know. That's very astute that you knew that.

[Amy Nicholson]

So, yeah, even from the interview, you can hear that Don Bluth is a guy who's thinking of animation on a deep level, you know, on the classic level. Like, I'm not just doing something to kind of fob off on kids, you know, Here, take this. You'll like it. It's colorful. It's silly. He's really thinking larger. And I actually think he's even kind of thinking larger than kids, because one of his other favorite Walt Disney maxims is that Walt always said he never made films for children. He made lots of films for people.

[Paul Scheer]

Mm. I like that. And I. And I feel like while the main character of this film is a child, what he does so well is play with scale. This movie is. I mean, even the adult rats are mice, I should say, not rats. The adult mice are small. Right. So everything feels big. And I feel like that is a great way to portray a new city, a new adventure, a new life. Right. You feel that you can't even see anything. That's what I love. That beautiful moment at the end when, you know, Feivel is flying. He's like, wait, that's America, too. You know, this idea that it's so hard to Even understand where you're at in a city like this. And it could really be disorienting. Beyond the fact that it's an immigrant story, I think it's a story about, you know, a country person coming into a city.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, it is funny, this kind of mouse, mouse, mouse, mouse, mouseness. Right.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because you were just talking about Secret of nimh, which was the movie that they made right before this. Also, earlier that summer, Disney had released the Great Mouse Detective. You know, so another mouse movie.

[Paul Scheer]

Lot of mouse movies, but really kind

[Amy Nicholson]

of underneath feels like all these mice are kind of giving a tiny bit of a finger to, like, Mickey Mouse.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. These are the real mice.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's like they're fighting over the legacy of who owns mice. But what is it about mice that you think make such good animation? Like, why is everybody gravitating to mice?

[Paul Scheer]

I do think it's scale because, you know, Great Mouse Detective is an adult. I like that movie, but a kid is going to be watching it. And I think it. It plays into some of the core issues of children feeling like they're smaller than the rest, feeling like there's danger around the corner, and mice and rats are constantly, you know, under attack, even unintentionally. You know, we don't have to have, like a big robot cat. But I do think part of that is to connect to children's point of view.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Cause you're knee high and running around between adults all the time and hiding behind furniture.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, well, yeah, I think it. You know what's interesting, though, is

[Amy Nicholson]

I

[Paul Scheer]

agree that you need to have stakes for children's film and you want the kids to go through every level of an emotion. I recently went through that seeing Project Hail Mary. I felt like it had all these different levels of. Of humor and despair and sadness and joy. And I think Walt Disney is really good. Or at least there is a period of time where they were fantastic at it. I think Pixar has taken over those reins. I don't know if Don Bluth ever fully captured the 360 film for people in a way, because I think everything that I've seen from his films feel like vignettes. They don't feel like it doesn't feel like a story. It's like we're just running from scene to scene. The emotional component doesn't feel as rich as a Disney film. And I also feel like it doesn't feel as timeless as Disney. It feels oddly, like, structurally dated in a way.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, that I think might be true about some of the other Bluth ones. But I don't know if I agree for this one.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, to me, I almost would pop this out and just be like, this is the best Bluth film.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay.

[Amy Nicholson]

It is vignetted. I can get with that. Like, I'm over here, I'm running over here, running over here, running over here. But I don't know, I find the emotions really powerful. Just this sense of a child losing its father. Usually I find that kind of corny, but in this one, when the Mousekowitzes finally reunite, I tear up every single time because it's just so sad. You have the score working on you. It's pulling on you. They're calling the violins the way they're just calling his name forever. I have to listen that right now.

[Child Character Voice]

Where are you?

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

5:05.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, maybe this is kind of likening to what you're saying, that it, it captures that feeling of being like small and lost. And. Hat days are fine, we all have them. But if you are ready to treat the root cause of a dubious hair day, if it's time to do something less temporary, Nutrafol is a physician formulated, clinically tested way to support healthier hair from within. In fact, Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand used by over one and a half million people. And they have formulas built for men at different life stages. Nutrafol men for guys 18 to 49. And the new Nutrafol Men 50 plus, which is the very first product of its kind, specifically made for men over 50. Nutrafol is made to address the key root causes of thinning. No matter where you're at at life, men using Nutrafol see visibly thicker fuller hair in three to six months. That is backed by peer reviewed studies. And that is also why Nutrafol is the official hair growth partner of Major League Baseball. Those are guys who love rocking a good hat too. And they trust Nutrafol to stay on top of their hair game when they take it off. So start Nutrafol today and make the hat optional. Visit nutrafool.com and enter promo code unspooled for $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrafool is the best selling hair growth supplement [e-mail], spelled N U T R-A F O L.com, promo code unspooled. That's NutraFool.com promo code unspooled. Happy summer. It is hot have you found the shorts? You know what I mean? The shorts that fit great, feel comfy, look good. The pair of shorts that you grab first, the ones you dig out from the laundry. If you're going to go run an errand, meet up with a friend, head to the movies, walk the dog. Quince specializes in basics that become the cornerstone of your wardrobe. Like their organic stretch cotton shorts. Those come in a few different cuts so that you can pick the pair that is right for your style. Maybe it's the utility shorts. They come in ivory, black, olive. Great pockets on those. Maybe it's the chino shorts. Simple chic fan fave. They come in those three colors plus three more. Navy, orange and pink. The regular chino shorts, those hit mid thigh. And if you like your shorts closer to the knee, scope out the chino Bermuda shorts. Six colors on those same quality fabric, 10 and a half inch inseam. Catch me at the par three golf course. I'm going to be rocking that pair in the olive green.

[Paul Scheer]

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[Amy Nicholson]

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[Amy Nicholson]

unschooled.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm not heartless. Like when Feivel runs to hear the violin, he thinks it's his dad. You know, like those moments. The song Somewhere out There is a beautiful song. There are elements here, but I don't know if I feel like this is a great movie. I think it's a beautiful movie. I really like the performances in the movie, but it, to me, it feels like there's one goal, reunite with the family, and that's about it. I don't know how much I'm learning or really even caring that much about too much more of it. I feel like we're.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

We.

[Paul Scheer]

We kind of dip our toes into a lot of different ponds. Like we mentioned all the different people he runs into. It's like, oh yeah, we spend about a scene with everybody and then it's over. You know, it's like. It. It just. It's like a story of near misses in a way. I. I don't know. I.

[Amy Nicholson]

You don't feel like you learn about the founding of American immigration?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, look, I will be honest and say that this is relevant, right? The story is still relevant to today, right? The. The. You know, the separation of family, the, you know, this idea of, you know, being forced or kind of not commoditized, but, you know, your uniqueness taken away. Like, even when he's called Philly and, you know, I love all that stuff. It's a story that we've seen a lot. This, The. The way that people were processed through Ellis island. And I Love that there's a mouse processing center as well in this. So I do feel like, you know, there's a lot going on, but I guess maybe the thing that I'm reacting to and maybe it's. I feel like this movie is not admitting that it's a movie about. About Jewish people. Right. On some level, that's a core part of this movie. And I feel like they're kind of dancing around it. But it's like there is something culturally interesting about these characters, too. And I feel like. I don't know. I feel like this movie is slightly sanitized in that way, too. It's like. Like, yes, they're celebrating Hanukkah. There are these little moments, but I feel like. I feel like they don't fully address it as much as I want to. And I think I was frustrated by that. I'm like, well, this is clearly a Jewish story. Like, let's just call it out. Let's just, like, embrace this a little bit more. And I don't. I don't feel like they ever fully go there. I feel like they're walking this line of just like, well, no, it's just an immigrant story, but it's aggressively Jewish in certain places, and it's. And I think that that's cool. But I also feel like they didn't fully commit to what this. I don't know. I don't know. There's.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because I'm not sure else they would like. I love that they're celebrating Hanukkah at the beginning in that it's. I don't know. I think. I like that this family sort of rooted in, you know, being from Usher, being coded as. As Jewish, you know, celebrating Hanukkah, showing up here, but then just sort of melting into the whole American system. Like, I like that they get on the boat with all of the other people who are leaving Europe, and you realize everybody is just sharing the same trauma. Like, the kind of universality of it. Like, the Irish mouse. Let's listen to him sing.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

When I was but a lad I lost my true lover A calico he caught us by surprise In a flash of teeth and fur her tale was only left of her Neath the heather is wed to Rha Lura lies.

[Amy Nicholson]

All right before him. You have, like, the Sicilian. The Sicilian mouse is talking about Don Tabby. Like, you're getting your touch of, like, Godfather history in here.

[Don Bluth]

Sure.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I like that it is, you know, just a tapestry of different people forming this country.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, right?

[Amy Nicholson]

And What I find kind of compelling about it is, you know, that I feel like it's sort of going above and beyond to explain the hardship that would make people move to America in the first place and the idealism that they're chasing after it and the sense that even as a little kid, if you're watching this film in America, you know that they're not aware of the entire truth because of specifically the idea that there are no cats in America. That when, like, the dad is sort of listing off everything that you could do in this country. Even as a child, I remember kind of having my heart broken a little bit. Like, oh, man, they're really hoping this country will be something that it's not, actually because I have a cat on my lap right now.

[Child Character Voice]

America. Another fairy tale.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

America.

[Child Character Voice]

What a place, what a place, what a place.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

In America, there are mouse holes in every wall.

[Child Character Voice]

Who says?

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Everyone in America, there are breadcrumbs on every floor. You're talking nonsense. In America, you can say anything you want. But most important, and this I know for a fact, in America, there are no.

[Child Character Voice]

They'll hear you.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

How could they hear us?

[Paul Scheer]

I love that. No cats in America, because I do think that we often think the grass is greener. And I think you're making a kids movie. It's a really important lesson. It's like, there's no perfect place. You have to make home your home. And, yeah, it might have been easier in New York to deal with the situation there versus, like, the Cossack cats, but it's still just as predatory. Right. It's just maybe a little bit more packaged as an adventure rather than, like, living in fear.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, the predatory nature of America. Right. When you get here. I really love how this film just kind of goes straight for it. It's like the mice show up and there's scammers everywhere trying to sell them the Brooklyn Bridge, trying to sell them, like, tickets that have already been sold. Like, to be aware of that hardship of just because. I mean, when you live in America, you know that at some level your family to be here has faced a kind of hardship. Right. And, like, I don't know that universally. I love it. Like, it really makes me think of, like, my family who came over. You know, my mom. My mom's side came over as Dutch people. My dad's. I came over as Irish people in the 1800s, like, around this time, and to kind of respect how difficult it was and that this country didn't make it easy in the slightest.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. This is a. A general immigration story, but it also has some very strong specifics as well. Right. And that's the kind of balance. It's like, I think that anybody who has any immigrant history can see themselves in this story, you know, struggling to survive, being, you know, in a place that doesn't really care if you live or die.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, where one interesting weird fact about it is, this was the first major studio film that was released simultaneously in English and Spanish.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, kind of to that point of, like, the universality of it, you know, And.

[Paul Scheer]

And maybe there is. This movie is bleak, and I think it's saved by the performance of Feivel, who was an actual seven year old kid. I think that that that voice really keeps it light and fun. But if you were to change that voice, it does have the darkness of Secret of nimh. It gets a little bit overwhelming. I think maybe. Maybe that's what I felt in it. I'm trying to, like, I'm wrestling with so many different things. I'm like. I just felt there was a. A repetition of bleakness to it, that while I enjoyed the scenes, it made me tired by the time we got to the end. And I knew what the end was gonna be. He's gonna find his family. Right. And so I'm just like, oh, just get to it. Just get to it. Cause it's like, I don't know if Fievel's growing or learning or changing in it. It's just like he's just moving through these scenes and every scene is a little darker than the last.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah. I mean, one of the things I think is kind of funny is when this movie came out at the time, one of the major attacks it got from most film critics is that it was too sweet. And I was like, wow, we've really softened as a culture.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because if this came out today, people would be like, whoa. I mean, not everybody felt that way. Like, two critics in particular were like, this is dark.

[Paul Scheer]

These guys, an orphan, cold, friendless, hungry, and alone. This is the most downbeat children's movie since Return to Oz, which began, you may remember, with Dorothy being strapped down for electroshock therapy. What a wonderful, entertaining way for kids to go to the movies. Okay, and one more footnote that I have. I didn't like the song. In America, there are no cats.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

That's right. No.

[Don Bluth]

In New York, there are no.

[Amy Nicholson]

Or in America, there are no cats.

[Don Bluth]

What about all the people named cats?

[Amy Nicholson]

They're kind of alone. Like, I went and read A bunch of old reviews, and they're like, how is this so sweet? This is too sweet. This is too sweet. And I'm like, what is going on in our national cartoon diet right now? Because this is, like, as bleak as it gets in a way that I find, I think, really, really powerful.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, they're dealing with sweatshops, organized crime, you know, like. Like, this is a movie that I. Yeah, I. I tell you, you watch the Great Mouse Detective, it's not dealing with any of that. Rescuers down under, they're not dealing with that. Like, so I won. I wonder if it's this movie that it's a dark movie, but because it's made for kids and it's carrying like, this is Once Upon a Time in America. That's what I kept on thinking about when I was watching this. And I was like, oh, in a Mausica. In a Mausica. And I wonder if that idea of it being too sweet was simply because it was animated. We have grown as a culture to adopt and understand and respect, you know, fair like this. But I think maybe the idea was like, oh, you put a cute mouse in it, and you make the. You know, make the programs a little bit, you know, more about crazy cats. Right. So maybe that was what people were reacting to to a certain degree. Because it's not. It's certainly not sweet in the movie, but I think it might be. Like, this is a heavy subject matter, and you're just kind of having a cute little mouse run around going, oh, boy.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Oh, geez.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Well, I wonder if part of it, too, is that, you know, that very famous. The very famous comic book art. Spiegelman's mouse came out this summer, too, didn't he? Which is kind of similar. Yeah, he did. I mean, kind of what was going on is, if you haven't read Mouse yet, it's a masterpiece. You're going to love it. And it has a lot of narrative similarities to this, but much, much, much, much darker and arts to be the one who was kind of working on Maus. He'd been working on Mouse for, like, over a decade when he saw a news brief that this movie was coming out in Rolling Stone magazine, and he was furious. He's like, they had to have taken that idea from me. I've been working on this for so long. He tried to, like, shut it down, but he couldn't really prove that they stole the idea. You know, I think it. I don't think they did, but he was really nervous that it would be like, the cuddly version of the dark thing he wanted to make.

[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

So even though he wasn't finished with Maus, that's why he published it in two installments. He got the first installment out before this movie came out. Is. I wonder if kind of subconsciously, reviewers were like, well, I've seen Maus, and this is also like, a mouse, and mouse is much darker.

[Paul Scheer]

So this is mouse is definitely also, like, a real, like, narrative of, like, Jewish trauma. Right? And this is definitely more of an optimistic, like, you know what? We can assimilate and it will be good. Like, this is, like, the celebration. I think the end is, like, the assimilation. Like, it's like, we love the melting pot, right? And. And that's maybe that ending is a little bit too sweet, too. It's like, we love. You know, like, I will be called Philly from now on. Like, you know what? I didn't like it in the beginning, but now I embrace it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, Arm Spigobene said, like, if he did a version of. Of American Tail, he would show the mice drowning off the coast of Cuba because the USA wouldn't let them in. Very dark. Very dark.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Very dark.

[Amy Nicholson]

I will say, though, as American tale goes on, Fievel goes west. We can ignore that one. Pop that one out. They made a movie called Treasure Manhattan island that narratively kind of goes before Fievel goes west. That's the third one where they befriend a Native American mouse. They learn about the history of that, and they really get into the economics of America and. And how, like, working class people are getting screwed over left and right. Because they touch on that in this film a little bit. I love the Bridget character at her protest. Let's listen to a little bit of her.

[Child Character Voice]

I ask you this. Are we gonna stand by and let cats wreck our homes, our businesses, and our lives? If we all got together, we could do something about the cats. Yeah, we should all get together. This is Umberica. We have free speech. You can say cat here. Cat, cat, cat, and double cat.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's so loud.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Please, not that word.

[Amy Nicholson]

But then they build on that even more in the Treasure Manhattan island, where all of the mice are working at a sweatshop and the cops come in to, like, bust up this worker protest. And Papa is afraid to join the worker protest because he's like, oh, I don't know. I don't want to get fired. And then the cops start hurting people, and Papa is like, this is like Russia all over again.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Yeah. But here's A little bit of them talking about it. There's a song where the. Where the employers are pretending to be on the side of the working mouse.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

My colleagues, gather round, please. Since you and I all know that if our mice keep working, our profit's sure to grow, I really like to see them sweat. It makes me calm and cool. And while they're grateful for the pay,

[Paul Scheer]

we're thankfully friends and working mouse.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

We're such a happy family. Our workers are the beast. And while they put in overtime, we'll just take a little rest.

[Amy Nicholson]

So what I'm saying is Don Bluth knows that. Yeah, this shit's wackier.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, look, Don Bluth, I think, is trying to do something really interesting. And I feel like this is kind of the battle that we always find with Spielberg, right? Not being able to fully push something as far as you would want him to. Like, he comes close to it, like on certain levels. Right. But he still is so intentional about what makes a family friendly movie. And I don't actually feel like Spielberg

[Amy Nicholson]

is having a hand in that too. Like. Cause Spielberg's kid is like one year old, and at the time that they're making this, and Spielberg's like, we have to keep this so that my one year old kid can watch it and not get too scared. So he was using his kid as like a trial.

[Paul Scheer]

And I don't mind that because I think that there should be a movie about this and I don't know what the middle ground is. Like, I'm like, well, it should be darker. No, I don't know if it should be. There's just something. I'm like. And I think I'm just like, I'm throwing darts at it because I don't know what is not sitting perfectly with me.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, okay, let's go about it this way. What's your favorite scene?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, I think, honestly, my favorite scene is the opening. I love this family. And I think that that's the anchor that sees us through the entire film. I mean, the way the father jokes with the kids, the life that they're living. And then I think that scene attaches to the moment when one of the remaining kids says to the father, like, we can't give up hope. We have to look for Feivel. And he's like, no, we. We have to give up. Like that. That to me, like, that emotional core is so strong. I love. I love those moments. I think that the more that we're with the family and seeing it, I think maybe as I'm saying that I'm like, well, maybe the characters around them are just so big. And, you know, the mouse who's the cat and the robot cat. Maybe it's. It kind of that intermix of a very, like, emotional story, but then with these bigger, kind of more fanciful kid movie things in it. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

But I like that you're drawn to the family. It kind of makes me wonder this one thing, like, because we kind of have this recurring conversation that does happen over and over again in the film. You know, can we find our son? Is our son around? And it's interesting that the parents are usually like, no. Yeah, like, the parents in particular. You know, you hear the mom in, like, that First America scene, she's like, oh, America's not gonna be that great. It's not that good. And the dad later on when his daughter's like, no. Maybe you hear these people calling for a filly. Like, maybe that's our kid, you know, maybe that's Bievel.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

You are calling for a filly Mouskovitz, right here. Tell my daughter his name is Philly and not Fievel.

[Child Character Voice]

His name is Philly.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

You see? And Fievel and Fievel. And F. Papa.

[Child Character Voice]

No, no, no, no.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

There are many Fievel Mouskoviches in New York, maybe thousands. It could still be another Fievel Moskovitz.

[Amy Nicholson]

And even in that scene, it's like that this time being like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Don't get your hopes up. And this movie kind of sketches this idea that, you know, optimism is really hard, and it's hard to shake off a certain level of, like, cynicism and the balance between, like, is it good to get your hopes up and then come all the way to America and the streets are not paved with cheese, and you get your heart broken. How can you balance that with the fact that you do need a little bit of hope and optimism to keep going when the streets are not paid with cheese and you have to find your kid. Am I explaining that? Really clumsy.

[Paul Scheer]

But you kind of get the sense

[Amy Nicholson]

my parents are, like, rooted in an older way of thinking enough to figure out how to live more optimistically here, even when it's hard.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I think what this movie is like, you know, I think it shows that there's tremendous love there. The father, obviously, is going through trauma. He tries to save his son. His son falls overboard. In my mind, the father knows that Feivel is dead. By the way, the father, played by Barbra Streisand's father in Yentl. Like, the same actor, but.

[Amy Nicholson]

And the mama, by the way, is played by Erika Yan, who is Madame Ruby in Pee Wee's Big Adventure. The one who tells him.

[Child Character Voice]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

That the fake bike is in the basement of the mama.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

So I feel like, you know, he's protecting his family by saying, we are not gonna look. It's not because he doesn't love his child, but he knows, like, in his mind, he's like, he's dead. And I think that what's so interesting about this, and I also will go in the Spielberg world, and if we're talking about Spielberg putting his two cents in, the father is flawed, right? The father is this. This guy who is falling victim to the stories. He believes that there's no cats in America. You know, he's the one who lost Fievel and is, you know, that is the. The cloud that hangs over the family. You know, it's like,

[Amy Nicholson]

he's the artist. He plays the violin. He's the dreamer compared to the mom and those.

[Paul Scheer]

And. And that kind of dreaming or that kind of playfulness actually leaves Feivel more unprepared. Right? So it's. The mom is the emotional core, and that's kind of the Spielberg thing, Right? Like, she doesn't have the big speeches, right? But she's like. She is, to your point. Like, she's like, no, no, no, don't worry about that. Like, she's more grounded. And I don't know. I think that this movie pokes holes in, like, the family always knows what's best. It's like, they don't, you know, But I. But I feel like, you know. You know what? I'm realizing it here. I don't think I care about the driving the cats out, the unionized labor story. Right. I know that, and I think that's

[Amy Nicholson]

what I care about most.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Oh, wow.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. See, like. And I feel like. Like, I am more. And I guess the whole movie just can't be about trying to get back to your family that's even probably Mara maudlin. But, like, I feel like, you know, we kind of have to make this victory where we do create a world where the cats are pushed out. And it's like, well, that's not realistic either. Right? Like, there's no. Like. Yeah, I guess. I mean, technically, how they're pushed out is. You know, we can get into the nitty gritty, But I'm just like, it. It's like, yes, he solves the problems now there are no cats in America. And he has his family. Right. Whereas I feel like it solves a problem that you would never be able to solve ultimately. And I think that that maybe is the saccharine part of it that I'm not relating to.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's fair. I mean, the solution is fair. So you don't like the solution or you don't like the actual problem of the shakedowns? I mean, because so much of what the cats are doing is so real, you know, like taking immigrants fresh off the boat, locking them into setups. There's a scene in this movie that they cut out and I think they maybe never even got to the point of like animating it, which is why I couldn't even find like a deleted version. A very good call that they deleted this where, you know, 5o, like gets abducted, put into the sweatshop for 50 cents by like the calculating, you know, cockroach and, and the big warranty rat here.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Hey, how much money did we make today?

[Child Character Voice]

Oh, well, well, let's see. 7, 9, 4, 6, carry 1, drop 2, take 7 up 98.65.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

But what did we make? What's the boodle?

[Child Character Voice]

So far we have collected $89 and, and 13 cents. Oh, and we'll get another 17 for mo. That's 50 cents less than yesterday.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

What? 50 cents. I hate to lose money. Where can I pick up an extra 50 cents?

[Amy Nicholson]

I just had to play that because I absolutely love the voice of the cockroach, Will Ryan.

[Paul Scheer]

The voices in this are great, but

[Amy Nicholson]

what, what happens is like, you know, he gets to the sweatshop and he pretty much just straight up books. It immediately is like, guys, I have an idea. We'll make a sheet bridge. And it's like, okay, come on. Everybody could have thought of the sheet bridge. It's a little. That is annoying that not everybody thinks to just escape. But they had a scene where when Fievel shows up at the sweatshop, he's. He sings a number about how maybe the sweatshop isn't that bad in that in America, you know, there are opportunities. And he tries to cheer everybody up. And they did cut that song number out. And I am glad because I cannot imagine how like wackadoo naive that would sound. Even if he's a 7 year old kid, like to have like this little mouse be like, guys, it's not that bad. Everybody would just hate him. Like, I kind of like the scenes where he shows up, he's like, hey, everyone. And they're like, get the fuck away. You don't even understand what's happening. He shows up in orphanalli getting, like, washed out of the sewers, and all those little kids are just like, no way. And you get this sense of. There's a level in this movie about, like, jadedness and optimism.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, and you. You see him almost become a jaded person when he's, like, in this despairing corner of orphans and the camera pulls out and you just see that there are hundreds of orphans. Like, he's one of a hundred people that can't get solved. Even when you push the cats off into a boat to Hong Kong.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

The movie knows that.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. Yeah. And I guess maybe in watching it, I feel like the movie is kind of saying he solved the problem. And I know he didn't solve the problem. He. You know what? He's like. He started collective action. I like. I like there's, like, you know, like, he is a spark that helps.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, he got people to stop quitting.

[Paul Scheer]

Exactly. There it is. And I guess I understand from a movie perspective that we need this climactic moment. You know, we need this mechanical monster to attack the cats. We need to send the cats off. But that doesn't. You know, and that's, like this emotional victory. Then it's like, oh, and then we met up with the family at the end where, you know. And I didn't. I guess it felt like he had to do that to meet up with the family. I don't know. It just didn't feel.

[Amy Nicholson]

See, I don't see that. I don't see that because so much happens between the mouse. And when they find each other, there's the fire. He gets swept away. He's alone with the orphans. It doesn't solve everything.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, he doesn't solve everything. I guess I just like that story of him surviving. I love what you're saying. Like, I love when he's sold into the sweatshop. I love that he falls in with all these bad things.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love the punctuation of it when you think he escaped, like, the lair of the cats.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

And he's, like, heaving, and he takes a breath and then just suddenly Paw Duke.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. I guess, you know, maybe I'm being too harsh on it. I just. It just didn't feel like a movie to me. It just didn't feel like a movie. It just felt like. It just felt all too easy, you know? And. And. And I guess maybe I also get irritated with movies where people are just, like, kind of passing by. Like, oh, if you were Just here, four seconds ago. Or if you just look to your left, you'd find there was just something that was unfulfilling. And I can look at each part and say, well, no, he did that. That's fulfilling. Oh, that's cool. That layer was interesting. That ending is good. So I look at all the parts in isolation. I'm like, yeah, I don't know what my issue is. Honestly, I don't know.

[Amy Nicholson]

I just keep figuring it out. Okay, let me ask you this. What's your least favorite scene?

[Don Bluth]

Hmm?

[Paul Scheer]

Hmm. That's a really interesting thing. What is my least favorite? I think the movie drags for me a little bit in the middle after the sweatshop area. Like, in this center moment. I think, you know, as much as I love Dom DeLuise, I think, like, around that cat. And.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

And.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, yeah, that. That's my. I don't like the vegetarian cat. I mean, I like the cat. I like the cat itself. Beautiful cat. Had a cat once that looked exactly like it. His name was Toby, after Tobe Hooper. Love that cat. There is no such thing as a vegetarian cat. So that drives me insane when he's like, no, really.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Listen, I like my. Oh, no, not like that. I mean, I don't eat red meat at all. I'm a vegetarian. That's right. Oh, a little fish now and then. But what I really like is some nice broccoli.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, that whole sequence, you can tell there's some. There is something wonky there. Like, you're not wrong to pick up on it. Like, Tony was a bigger character earlier on. There's supposed to be a couple more scenes with him to kind of establish the cat. And so he just sort of shows up, I think, like, you know, almost an hour into the movie and gets a song number, which is a. I find that to be a little wonky. Like, I like the basic idea of the song number. You know, the idea that if we. Even if we're on opposite sides, we can find out that we have a lot in common. You know, as the song starts out

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

here, I like butterflies with big golden wings and blue and green tips.

[Child Character Voice]

Me, too.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

I like Swiss cheese. I scream, Me, too.

[Child Character Voice]

Me, too.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

You too, too. Wait a minute. What's your favorite book?

[Child Character Voice]

The Brothers Caramel Song.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

The Breakfast. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. I can tell we got an awful lot in common, even though we look as different as can be, because I do believe that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, I actually think, even as bad as things can feel right now in America. I think we. If we all kind of sat down, we're like, yeah, okay. We all like Term Limits. We all hate data centers. Cool. You know, we. There's many things we could agree on that I think would be wonderful, but I think the song duo itself is pretty corny.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, and they're not a duo. They just met. What the what?

[Paul Scheer]

But I would argue that, like, in a world where all the. I think a lot of the characters are very, like, undercooked, right? It's like you have these, like. You know, it's like Warren T. Red and Tony Topony. You know, it's like they're just like these kind of, like, forgettable little characters. I feel like everything's a little undercooked. And in that moment, while I'm also like, well, I'm bored of the story at this point. I am like, oh, well, this is a fun cat. And I don't know if that's just Dom deluite. He's like. But at least he's got something that's not, like, so stereotypical, right? It's like we, you know, we got the trauma, we got the visuals. I guess maybe what I'm saying is. Wait, Amy. I think I'm figuring it out. Maybe I don't like Fievel. Maybe I think that, like, Fievel is just cute and sad, right? There's, like, not a lot to Fievel, right? He is this. Like, he is just a garbage bin that people dump on, right? Like, he's just. Like, everything just happens to him. And. And I feel like. And while he is. And I think the voice. While I said a while ago, the voice kind of keeps the movie light. I also feel like that maybe is all Fievel is. Is a voice. Like, I don't know. Like, what is Fievel, the character?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I think we get a couple glimpses. I think he is risky. You know, he falls overboard because he keeps throwing his hat higher and higher to.

[Paul Scheer]

He does try to attack those cats, right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, yeah. He, like. He throws his hat into the danger zone to try to have an excuse to go look at some fish. Like, he is a little kid. Like, he gets himself into trouble being curious. He thinks he's immortal until he realizes he's not. And he can get, like, washed ashore. Yeah. He tries to attack the cats, you know, the cats who sound like no cats ever on earth. Oh, my God. So he's a little kid in that way. Like, he's not wise. I wouldn't say he's like, wiser than most people. You know, I don't like kids that are too smart.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Part of the thing with his reading too, that I think is interesting is like the 7 year old didn't know that his character was a mouse. He was just reading it like a normal person. And then like halfway through filming, they let him see a rush of his performance with the mouse character. And then the very next day, he started making his voice more mouse like. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They had to get him to forget that it was a mouse. Introducing Meta glasses.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, Meta, any last minute tables for two tonight?

[Amy Nicholson]

Sure. There's a great Italian restaurant 15 minutes away.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, Meta, where's the nearest flower shop?

[Amy Nicholson]

Five minutes away. Straight down Broadway, past the bodega. Their lilies are trending on Instagram.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Just saying.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, Meta, am I forgetting anything else?

[Amy Nicholson]

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[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

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[Paul Scheer]

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[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

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[Amy Nicholson]

Tennessee 2012.

[Paul Scheer]

What I'm kind of figuring out in this conversation, and forgive me for not coming in fully formed here, but I think where this movie suffers is in being too generic. Right? And now I'm tying everything together for myself in the sense that, like, I'm like, oh, I feel like they don't fully embrace the Judaism. And they do a little bit, but then they also kind of make it broad and more general. Like an immigrant story. Right? Like, and it trivializes some certain terrifying aspects of things. And the characters are, like, very basic. It's like evil, cute, old man wise. Like, it's like, it's. It's very like, like, it. It's got all the elements, but it doesn't really have the polish to it. And I think that's the thing that I'm having a hard time with because I'm like, all right, okay, yes. It's almost like you're pitching me the movie. I always kind of go back to this, like, sometimes I don't like a movie. It's like, oh, this pitched really well. Like, I could hear the pitch for this movie. Got it. Got it. Yeah. Yep, Yep. But when it's on the page or on the screen, I'm feeling it being a little bit more vacant. It just kind of feels. I think it all just feels generic. And in those moments of specificity, the, like, the sweatshop moment, being with the other orphans, you know, the. The. The opening scene, the Hanukkah scene, the father kind of dealing with this guilt, like, those are the moments that feel like they're really real to me. And then I think at the end of the movie, when we're flying away, it just feels like, America, what a country. Right? And it's not. It. America has not changed. It's. But it does lend us that, like, happy fourth of July, you dumb motherfuckers. Like, you know, I don't. Oh.

[Amy Nicholson]

But I don't think it's like that. I think it's more like. It's not like, America's great. No, it's just.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, like. Okay, so Feivel, in the beginning, what does he believe in the beginning, and what does he believe in the end?

[Amy Nicholson]

He believes that there are no cats in the streets of babes with cheese.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, that's. He realizes he doesn't believe that he's told that. Yeah, that's not an arc. That's not an arc. That he's. He's, like, lied to. That's all.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, my gosh. He's not lied to because it's not deliberate.

[Paul Scheer]

But you don't think his father knows?

[Amy Nicholson]

No, I think his father maybe does believe.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

All right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, yes, like. And I think.

[Paul Scheer]

But character wise, what is his arc? What does he go from in the beginning? He is, what, Optimistic, Naive? Loves his family, and at the end,

[Amy Nicholson]

I think it finds some nobility in that. He can find a new type of informed idealism, which I think is what we need right now. To me, what's moving about this movie isn't that America is a great place. It's moving that it deeply believes in the idealism that you can work to make this country live up to what it professes to be about, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think it believes in. It believes in the core tenets of America, you know, as a reminder to keep believing in them. Because the second we let our guard slip, they obviously slip and fall.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love that. Like, the Statue of Liberty is not fully made at the beginning of this. You know, she's still missing a face. And then even when she's, like, erected at the end, she's copper, she's shiny, she's new. It's like, to me, it's all about having to shoulder the weight of making this country live up to what it does, promise people, you know, like. Because to me, I think that's a more moving message. It makes, I think, participating in America and democracy an active choice that you have to do with the mix of cynicism and idealism, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, but I feel like. But I. And I guess this is maybe what it comes down to, too. It, Like, I feel like the ending should be. America is a great place. It has its flaws. Every place has its flaws. No place is perfect. Right. But what is perfect is who you surround yourself with and how you get through it. And I do feel like at the end, it's kind of like. It feels like he's back in that same place of, like, well, the world is better now. Like. Like, it does. It feels like it doesn't feel. I guess I want him to be a little bit more cautious at the end and not, like, cautiously optimistic. I think this is what we're both talking about. I think that's a good thing. I don't want. I don't want to be like, oh, I hate America, and America sucks, and this is. And this is the way they treated immigrants. You know, all these things. Like, I don't want it to be j. I don't want it to be jaded at the end. Like, that's not a fun thing. But I also don't find him to be. I don't find him to. Have a diff. A fully different point of view. Like, I. You know, he's just as excited to go into the rest of America, but he doesn't seem, like, with reckless abandon.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, it took a lot of reckless abandon to settle this place.

[Child Character Voice]

Right.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, we have to play the ending because I'm not seeing the 1982.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Okay. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

No, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm. I mean, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. This is Henri the pigeon. He considers the Statue of Liberty his. They're flying around it. The statue's winking.

[Child Character Voice]

Henri, what's that over there?

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

That is more America.

[Child Character Voice]

Can we go see it?

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

You will, my little American, someday.

[Don Bluth]

You will?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I think it's about the act of, like, exploring this place, you know? I don't know. It's. I mean, it would be weird if this movie had a message that was like, and now just stay home. Which Sounds like it's. What?

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

No.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. But I think it's sort of like. But now I'm going into this with my eyes a little bit more open, right? I have to be a little bit, like. It's almost like what I want the ending to be is, have you reunited with my family. Here we go. And then as they're, like, you know, walking into the sunset, someone's like, hey, you want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? And he's like, no, thank you. I know what that is. You know, it's like, I want to see, like, a little bit. No, I mean, not like that, but you know what I'm saying? I want a moment where I see him being like, yes, I am moving forward, but my eyes are also open to how people might take advantage of me because he did do this thing. And I. And I feel like at the end, he's like, whoa, wow. It's great. You know, I don't know, man.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, a lot of the corrupt. Corruption is still going on. I mean, like, we should talk for a second about, you know, a character. I was astonished to realize that, like, at the time when this movie came out, a lot of people were really offended by, which is Honest John, the Irish corrupt politician. You know, here's Honest John, you know, basically professing his belief in voter fraud.

[Child Character Voice]

Oh.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Oh, poor lad. So young. Never had a chance to vote. Well, he'll vote from now on. I'll see to that.

[Amy Nicholson]

The Honest John is still gonna be in charge of, like, the mouse party at the end. You know, there's even disillusionment here happening on the part of, like, Bridget, who really thinks that Honest John is a great politician who's gonna help everybody. And then they show up and he's like, eh, can't do much. I don't know. And his main thing that people were annoyed about is like, I can't believe the Irish character is just drunk. How are you making Irish people look so terrible?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, I mean, they do it for everything.

[Amy Nicholson]

I know they do it. Also, there's kind of a small line in there where Honest John mentions that the reason why he's so drunk that day in particular is because so many mice keep getting murdered that it's his third wake. He's been to three wakes already that day. That's why he's so blitzed.

[Paul Scheer]

This is like, I think maybe. And I know, and I'm sorry if I'm frustrating any listeners right now, but I'm just like. That's the thing. I feel like this movie is so bleak, so dark. And you can feel like, oh, here's Don Bluth going like, I'm gonna. As long as we have a happy ending, we can make this kid miserable. Right? Or we could drag these people through hell. And then there is also like this lightness of Spielberg going through it. It's almost two different tones and I can kind of feel like it's fighting for its position of what it wants to be. And I think maybe I'm reacting to that. So like some of the edges get sanded down and I'm like, well, you're already going to this guy who's been to three wakes. You're already going to this world where there's a bunch of orphans over here. And then it's like, oh. But then we are getting a very traditional like kind of Disney 4 quadrant good for my 1 year old kind of movie. Right? It's like, it's a really.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's why I like this movie so much is me. What you don't like about it because to me, every time I watch this movie is one of those ones where I see something new in it all the time.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I do think it moves really fast. You know, I think it does kind of rush through a lot of the, the sad bits. Or it doesn't want to spend too long in the.

[Paul Scheer]

Or it sets up something big and then immediately answers it or doesn't pay it off.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, it just doesn't want to spend that much time in the sweatshop, you know, it doesn't want to spend that much time.

[Paul Scheer]

I forget.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it does what it can to kind of make things worried. I mean, they're building this like crazy inflatable cat monster in one of those museums of the weird that's got like brains in jars. It weird choices when it can, you know. And it has like scenes that I kind of read different ways when I watch them. You know, 5O when he's homeless, he's like walking around and he, you know, wanders by like a piece of sheet music for poor wandering soul and he sees a window of kids pled doing the Pledge of Allegiance in a school. And I always read that as like, you know, I have a lot of conflicted feelings about the Pledge of Allegiance. You know, like, sure, I belong to like a group called the LA Breakfast Club that used to do the Pledge of Allegiance all the time on Wednesday mornings. And when they did, we'd always have to preface it with like, and let's pledge Allegiance to the ideals on which this country, we hope, will someday live up to. You know, it's tricky. And so that's how I used to read that scene. But then, like, I heard that why part of that scene existed is because even, like, Spielberg himself heard that his grandpa, his grandfather, when he was a kid, wasn't allowed to enroll in school because he was, like, busy or working or being kept working or something like that. And he would just have to stare through the windows of schools because he wasn't allowed in. And there's just. I don't know, there's so much to read in to this movie.

[Paul Scheer]

Here's what I love about it. I think it captures something that is, at its core, a baseline fear of children being separated from your family. I have been. I have not been victim of it. Well, I have. As a child, I was victim. I got lost my. My folks. Now, as a parent, I've watched my kids get lost for me and how that affects them. And I understand, like, that core issue is really. I think that that is the emotional story that we're telling. Like, what would it be like if you were alone in a city without your parents? We've seen it in Home Alone too, of course. In Home Alone, I mean, I feel

[Amy Nicholson]

like we see that story almost too much. You know, it's like Nemo, it's Bambi. It's everything.

[Paul Scheer]

But let's, like, go 86 and go, okay, but. And then I think the. The interesting part of this is. But then on top of it, it layers this immigrant story and the fear of not only are you alone, but you are truly a stranger in a strange land. And I don't think, you know, as much as my argument is, is that they don't go far enough or they don't, like, give it down, but they do hit a bunch of stuff that is also really important for kids to understand. Like, you know, I think, you know, when you hear, like, cowboys and Indians when you. Well, at least when I was a kid, you know, it was like, oh, the cowboys were always the. And the Indians, like, they're the bad guys or they're cool.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Like.

[Paul Scheer]

But we didn't understand what was going on. And this movie is frank about that. It does. You know, it does talk about, like, this exile, you know, from the Cossacks and then child labor and Tammany hall. Like, you know, so.

[Amy Nicholson]

And you see the humans kind of above them, like, feet of humans who are living the exact same experience.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

So.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. So I think that there is something about this movie and when I go to say that I like it, I'm like, I appreciate all of those things, and I appreciate that this is a movie that's willing to go. To go there. I think the episodic nature and the generic characters, I think lessen the weight of those things. So I could walk away, and you probably talk to your kid and be like, oh, yeah, there was child labor and there was this and there was that. And it's almost like, oh, you could recite what was on a. Maybe on a test, you could tell me things. But I feel like from the emotional thing, the only thing that really sticks to me is the separation of family. And because it becomes so comical of the 5:05 oh, five like, it just. It kind of like, I'm. It runs out of steam.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't think Feivel is any less a character than, like, Nemo. And when I was a kid, what really stuck out to me was that, like, Warren T. Rhett was actually a cat in, like, that Betrayal. You know, that is pretty cool.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

That you think are going to help. You are actually the enemy. Like, that's. That's what has always really registered with me in American Tale. And, you know, this character, I don't find him generic at all. I find him. Well, I would say he is a truism of human behavior. He's a type of person who I think shows up in history over and over and over and over again. You know, like the businessman scammer who's, like, trying to trick everyone. I love this little bit where he's, like, confronting the mice and trying to get them to believe that even though he's been exposed as a cat, he's still a rat.

[Child Character Voice]

It's that rat, Wallen Tea. He's not a rat. He's a cat. He's their boss.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Pay no attention to that little mouse. Just throw down all your money and that kid and I will personally convince these cats to leave you alone. You're wrecking the plan. It's not supposed to happen this way. Just throw down that kid.

[Child Character Voice]

Oh, yeah. Bullseye.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Disregard the nose. What's in a nose? Nose by any other name would smell sweet. Great whiskers. He's a cat.

[Amy Nicholson]

He's a cat.

[Narrator/Advertisement Voice]

Wait a minute. Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, come on. You can't tell me you don't think of the scene a lot. Like, it's a lot.

[Paul Scheer]

I definitely can tell you I don't think of it a lot, but I hear you.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, but A lot. I mean, it is even kind of saying, like, well, I'll never do business here again. And if I can't do business with these mice, he's going to burn down the whole mice. I mean, my God, like Warren T. Rat is just a foundational American villain.

[Paul Scheer]

I do want to say one thing before you get too far away from it, because you just threw it out there, and I just want to just hit it. Nemo is a much better character than Five.

[Amy Nicholson]

How?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, okay. First of all, just from a pure arc perspective, right? Like Nemo, you know, he is. He's overprotected. He craves independence, right? And it's like every one of those things, like, shapes his choices. And. And what's going on with Marlon in that movie is like, this is a guy who lives in fear, and he grows to have a mutual trust, right? And their relationship, when they connect. I'm so glad you brought this up. Cause this may be really driving home what my issue is. It feels fulfilling. They both have grown, right? It's not like they just found each other at the end. And it is. You have humor, you have peril, you have it all. But you're not like. It's not just repetitive. It's not like, shark, shark, shark, shark, shark.

[Amy Nicholson]

But there's so many types of sharks here, right?

[Paul Scheer]

Endless types of sharks, right? Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, endless types of sharks.

[Paul Scheer]

I just said, like, things happen to Fievel, and I feel like Nemo is the reason why it's Fievel because of

[Amy Nicholson]

his innocence, his naivete, his belief that people will help him. And they won't. You know, he believes in Warren T. Rhett until he gets, like, sold. I mean, he's learning all the time. He's like a seven year old learning what danger is.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's why I want the ending to kind of show that little bit of difference. But he's just. All this to say, I did not. I don't resent watching this at all, actually was really fascinating to me because I do think this is an interesting era of. Of animation in the sense that I believe that Don Bluth in Secret of nimh and this, I'm not gonna say in the Land Before Time, but there is this element to make animated films a little bit more adult, a little bit more the films that we now love, where parents, children, adults, whatever, can enjoy them as films. And this is definitely a step in that direction. And it. And it's a. And it looks beautiful. And you know, to me, it feels like it obviously worked It's a huge hit. I mean, the fact that Steven Spielberg can get a mouse named Fievel, you know, to be like a love, like a cuddly character. It's like that. Like, that's the power of this movie too. It's like, you know, we are, you know, you have, you know, a movie that has like, elements of antisemitism in it or mouse. What would you say mouse is? You know, like you're embracing this character. That's a win too, a mainstream movie to embrace, you know, like, even having that out there. Like, so I appreciate that and I understand that they probably couldn't and didn't want to push more, but they gave it enough that you can't, you can't deny that it's a Jewish story, it's Jewish characters, It's. It's pushing all the right places. I just don't think it is as fully formed as it could be. But I guess you need these middle steps to get the end steps.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I think also one other crucial thing it's doing in the 80s too is like, this is a time when Don Bluth is really looking around at like, the landscape of animation and he is absolutely horrified by what's happening on tv. You know, that TV cartoons, he just looks cheap, right?

[Paul Scheer]

They look cheap.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And he's like, little kids are getting used to just the idea that a Saturday morning cartoon is what a cartoon looks like. You know, Disney isn't carrying its weight at this moment to show them the animation can be more beautiful than this. They're not holding the standards up that high. Even though I do kind of love like Black Cauldron and I love Fox of Hound and I love all that stuff. But, like, he is worried that somebody has to stand up in the 80s and teach kids the animation is bigger than what you just see every Saturday morning. Yeah, he did a thing when he was like doing press for this movie where he took like a press person into like an animation studio. And he was like, listen, I want you to understand how many animation cells it takes to animate a movie like this. He's like, here, this is about. I'll stack up how much it takes to do a Saturday morning cartoon. And he stacks up a layer of animation that's, you know, a couple inches tall. He's like, this is, you know, a two minute scene in animation for tv. And he's like, and here's what it takes to do this movie. And it's like a stack of animation cells that's taller than him. And he's like, you need to understand it is, you know, and I think that's incredibly important.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that. I love that he's challenging what animation is. And I think that it's starting this world where we're, you know, we're starting to see different techniques being used. You know, in 87, the brave little Toaster is coming out. Not that that is emotionally more satisfying, but it's like, okay, we're trying different animation. We have like, you know, we have Akira coming out in 88, and then this renaissance of Disney that really starts in like 89 with like the Little Mermaid and that leads into Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin. And so I feel like this is the moment where he is shaking up the system and saying, like, let's get back to like making great animated films. It doesn't have to be all thematically the same, but it can, it can start to be less disposable and more worthy of your time. And I, and I fully, 100% believe that the reason why this movie works, connects on this level is because it is, it is doing something that feels different and, you know, like trying to push a boundary, like, where can it go?

[Amy Nicholson]

And there is an irony to it. You know, the irony is that Don Bluth realizes when you're trying to launch an animation company, do its second feature, you're trying to make it this high quality, that it's almost impossible to do it for $9 million, which is the budget that they had. And so he couldn't make this film without forming a non union studio and making a lot of enemies with animators here in town. Like, he got bricks thrown through his window driving to form a non union studio, which is a thing that he kind of winds up standing against in like the later films of American Tale. But he has to take the studio from Los Angeles to Ireland, he has to do like a reverse American tail and go to Ireland to try to pull off Don Bluth Studios.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, wow. Interesting. See, grass is not always greener. There are cats. So he, so he, he goes the other way. He doesn't do collective bargaining. Like he, he just runs. Like he, he does. He decides to manipulate labor.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's rough. But you know what I do love about animation of specifically this time period, and I don't know exactly what happened to it, and I don't even know exactly how to articulate it, but there's a type of neon color in this animation that is so beautiful, like a neon orange, a neon purple, a neon green. That's just this bright, acidic shade that I just don't feel like I see in any other cartoons besides, in this time period. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Paul Scheer]

I I, I understand. I think it is something about the paint. It's something like this looks like it's such a unique moment. Like, when I see this, it captures something that is so specific. I don't know. Yes, but I think it is in the palette.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, there's just this palette that I love from this time period. Okay. I know that you love.

[Paul Scheer]

Let me say this to you. All I will say is I know that you love it, and I appreciate that you brought it here. But I'll also let you know it is not even on the top 250 animated films on letterboxd.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I think that that is an oversight, and I would like to dedicate that, but I think I'm going to dedicate my career to changing that.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. Okay. I appreciate that, but I'm glad that also, I don't feel as crazy. But if you want to continue this conversation, we will continue it on our substack. You can also get on our discord and talk about, you know, Don Bluth. What do you think? Amy, I do appreciate always talking to you because you made me answer some questions that helped me just go, I don't know. I'm not feeling it. And I'm closer to a more of a solid point of view. But I also gives me a great appreciation of how you approach movie criticism, because it's like, it's not enough to be like, meh, didn't like it. You were like, what do you like? What don't you like? And those things really helped me kind of articulate it, because I do like this movie. I just felt at the end, like, a little empty. It just felt like it wasn't as fulfilling as it was visually.

[Amy Nicholson]

To me, I feel like on your sixth watch, you're gonna fall in love with this movie.

[Paul Scheer]

All right, well, maybe. Maybe my mom will use it again in a wedding ceremony.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I think we are once again cycling back to the core of it. You know what? We can't leave without hearing a little bit of the song. But I don't want to play the version that is traumatizing to you. No, it was.

[Paul Scheer]

None of it is. None of it is.

[Amy Nicholson]

You keep protesting, which makes sense.

[Paul Scheer]

I'll tell you, the one that's traumatizing to me is that I had to dance with my mom to Billy Joel's Don't Go Changing. And I'M like, oh, when I hear that song, I'm like, dup. That gives me like that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, so what is more traumatizing? Got it. The reason why Linda Ronstadt saying this in the first place is she was dating George Lucas at the time. But the clip that I want to play is just the one from the movie itself because I think it actually etched a really core thing in me, which is I prefer musicals where the people can't sing. I love it when a character sings and their voice is kind of cracky. And that's what you hear in Fievel right here.

[Child Character Voice]

Somewhere out there Beneath the pale moonlight Someone's thinking of me and loving me, me tonight.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I think you hear James Horner kind of doing a couple notes that are a call back to Cocoon.

[Paul Scheer]

I love, by the way. Love James Horner. Score. This song was nominated for best song of the year. Lost out to take my breath away from Top Gun.

[Amy Nicholson]

Good year for songs.

[Paul Scheer]

Great year for songs, by the way. Love that. I do love that song. It's a beautiful song. And I do think, like, that's the emotional core.

[Amy Nicholson]

So next week, there is a movie that is turning 15 years old this summer that I have been very curious to check out again. We're gonna do the 2011 Nicholas Winden Refn film, the film that launched a thousand satin scorpion jackets. We're gonna do Drive Ryan Gosling. Ryan Gosling's first action roll. Ready? Cue up your neon. Let's go.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, I'm excited for it.

[Amy Nicholson]

All right.

[Paul Scheer]

And make sure you check out our merch [e-mail]. we got new stuff, stickers, mugs, whatever you can. Put any image on what, whatever you want to do. And a thank you to our amazing crew puts a show together every week. They are Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds, and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison, and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford.

[Paul Scheer]

And I'm John Ross.

[Amy Nicholson]

And we're the hosts of Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV and awards lovers.

[Paul Scheer]

And just because the Oscars are done for now doesn't mean we are.

[Amy Nicholson]

Join us. Join us every week for coverage of the biggest stories in Hollywood, interviews with today's brightest stars, and so much more.

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[Paul Scheer]

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