Arrival

Summary

UNSPOOLED PODCAST SUMMARY — "Arrival" (March 26, 2026)

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

Hosts Paul Scheer (actor, comedian) and Amy Nicholson (LA Times film critic) dive into Denis Villeneuve’s 2016 sci-fi drama "Arrival," exploring its themes of language, time, communication, and deeply human choices. They break down how "Arrival" makes linguistics cinematic, the emotional underpinnings of its story, and its place in cinematic history, wrestling with questions of fate, trust, and the power of communication. The conversation seamlessly weaves personal anecdotes, behind-the-scenes details, philosophical questions, and critical analysis, all in the duo’s signature wry, thoughtful style.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS AND INSIGHTS

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Setting the Stage: A Movie About Communication

• Main Premise ([04:03–04:55])
  • Amy: "A movie comes out that is exactly about that. The pitch of ‘Arrival’ is that it's a story about 12 alien pods who land around the globe. The linguist Dr. Louise Banks, that's Amy Adams, is tapped by the military to try to make first contact."
  • Paul highlights co-leads: Colonel (Forrest Whitaker) and Ian, the physicist (Jeremy Renner).
  • Arrival uses the aliens’ language (written and spoken) as a metaphor for communication among humans.

The Movie's Emotional Magic (Personal Experiences) ([01:28–02:43])

• Paul: The movie “tricks” him emotionally every time; he experiences initial skepticism only to be moved to tears by the end.
• Amy: Describes a “time travel experience” watching it; disliked it on first viewing, deeply moved on second, especially as her life context changed (post-2016 election).

From Short Story to Screen ([05:05–07:04])

• Adapted from Ted Chiang’s "Story of Your Life," which screenwriter Eric Heisserer found "emotionally wrecked" him ([05:16]).
  • Eric Heisserer: “I had this weird mix of just, like, feeling uplifted and hopeful and also completely shattered... then sat back down and thought, how can I torture a greater audience with this? How can I infect a bunch of people with this feeling?” ([05:16])
• Faced 100 rejections—many producers missed the point, suggested changing the female lead to a male, or removing flashbacks ([05:53], [06:15]).
• Moviemaking pivoted when director Denis Villeneuve ("Prisoners," "Sicario") joined. With Amy Adams attached, script sold for a record $20 million at Cannes ([06:27–07:03]).

Amy Adams' Understated Brilliance ([07:39–09:39])

• Amy Adams was crucial to the credibility and emotional weight of the film. Not nominated for Best Actress at Oscars—“a crime” (Paul, [07:39]).
• Denis Villeneuve recounts Adams’ authenticity and commitment in scenes with the newborn:
  • Denis: "I was so moved by your appetite, your desire for authenticity. I felt that you're the best ally for me to put all my chips on you... what is important is if you believe in what we were about to do." ([08:53])

Linguistics and the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis ([09:56–13:11])

• Paul introduces the concept that undergirds both short story and film: our language shapes reality ("linguistic relativity").
  • “Her learning a language changes her reality... a really heady concept.” ([09:56])
• Amy explains anthropological debates about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis—sticky but not universally accepted, yet an effective metaphor for how culture influences cognition.
  • Amy: "Are we saying that their brains work differently, or are we saying that in their culture, different things are prioritized?" ([11:23])

Filmmaking Approach: Scale, Budget, and Authenticity ([13:28–16:36])

• "Arrival" looks big-budget but is small-scale, thanks to provincial Quebecois filmmaking efficiency and a focus on atmosphere over spectacle ([13:28–14:57]).
• Denis Villeneuve, directing in a non-native language (French Canadian directing in English), brings unique sensitivity to communication, reflected in both production and story.

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CINEMATIC CHOICES AND SCENES

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Mundanity as Design ([23:35–24:17])

• The film intentionally courts a grounded, even “boring” atmosphere to make sci-fi believable.
  • Amy: "He said he wanted to make a sci-fi film that felt really grounded and a little bit boring.”
• Dry-erase board scene (sentence-diagramming) exemplifies “boring” but cinematic linguistics, achieved by compressing numerous language-learning scenes into one clear, relatable sequence ([24:17–26:12]).

Miscommunication and Trust as Central Pillars ([27:13–30:36])

• The film explores human misunderstandings as deeply as alien ones—between military and scientists, between Louise and her colleagues, and in international relations.
  • Paul: “There are so many places where you can just... give off the wrong vibe, the wrong signal.”
  • Amy: Forest Whitaker’s military mindset sees every encounter as "war or not"—a powerful metaphor for how perspective frames understanding ([28:42]).

The Philosophy of Time, Choice, and Embracing Life ([31:30–36:35])

• Core question: If you could see your future and all its sorrow, would you live it the same way?
  • Paul: “If you knew all the things in front of you, would you act the same way?” ([30:36])
  • Amy, on pets: “We choose pets knowing we'll probably outlive them... we choose to hurt ourselves, and it’s absolutely worth it.” ([33:49–34:43])
• The movie posits embracing pain as part of living fully, echoing "Eternal Sunshine" questions but with a sci-fi twist.

Free Will vs. Determinism—The Book vs. Movie Debate ([43:40–47:59])

• Eric Heisserer and Ted Chiang disagreed on whether Louise has genuine choice.
  • Eric: “It’s more profound for me if she has a choice, if she has free will and can change her future, and yet she chooses to have Hannah.”
• In the movie, the child dies of an incurable disease; in the book, it’s a rock climbing accident—chosen so fate can’t be subverted by "simply making a call" ([44:19–44:35]).

Communication as an Act of Faith and Translation ([51:15–52:49])

• Amy: "Even in writing a screenplay, you’re translating the intentions of an original story... everything we do in making a film, it’s an act of translation."
• Denis Villeneuve visualizes risk and effort in communication: the anti-gravity leap into the alien ship as literal leap of faith.

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MEMORABLE QUOTES

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• Eric Heisserer on the film’s emotional effect ([05:16]):
  "It emotionally wrecked me... how can I torture a greater audience with this?"
• Denis Villeneuve on Amy Adams ([08:53]):
  "I felt that you're the best ally for me to put all my chips on you... the visual effects, all that is not important. What is important is if you believe in what we were about to do."
• Paul Scheer on miscommunication ([13:06]):
  "You can get so attached to certain things that you don’t see the... forest through the trees. And that’s kind of what’s happening here as well."
• Amy Nicholson on the parenting dilemma ([36:35]):
  "It seems like to be a parent, you have to fight off your inner Renner... if people aren’t hurt, they don’t grow."
• Eric Heisserer (on changing story endings) ([43:40]):
  "The message in Ted's story…was more about Louise embracing the inevitable. It was a very kind of deterministic realization… I think it’s more profound for me if she has a choice..."
• Amy Nicholson on love and trust ([53:28]):
  "I’m gonna retranslate your word love and say that to me, the word I would choose is trust…trust is as brave as love in a lot of ways."
• Paul Scheer ([56:02]):
  "When you can trust somebody, you are giving everything over and you are trusting the ride. I mean, that’s really what it is."

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BEHIND-THE-SCENES & FILMMAKING FACTS

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On Language and Directing

• Denis Villeneuve directed in English rather than his native French, finding his personality changed—“serious” in French, “more charming” in limited-English on set ([14:57–16:36]).
• Some miscommunications on set became running jokes ("We're going to 'uss' on Amy…” – Denis, [16:29]).

Cinematic Choices

• The minimalist style, contained locations, and tactile details (dry erase marker running out, ordinary trucks/tents) create authenticity.

The Aliens (Heptapods)

• Their design inspired by abstract, anthropomorphic whale-spider hands—meant to evoke a soul and avoid generic “vagina mouth” monsters ([72:59–74:00]).
• Naming them Abbott & Costello is knowingly retro—hosts laugh about generational references and hurricane naming conventions ([68:07–68:40]).

Visual Motifs

• The ship’s white, rectangular screen within the ship mirrors the movie theater screen, underlining themes of transmission and understanding ([53:56]).
• Screen design inspired by light artist James Turrell, as was Drake’s "Hotline Bling" video ([71:58–72:45]).

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CULTURAL REFLECTIONS & THEME EXPLORATION

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Communication, Misinterpretation, and the Modern World ([57:13–58:49])

• The film dramatizes how miscommunication can incite war, using international scenes to show the high stakes of word choice.
• Even professions (military, librarians, scientists) frame the alien encounter through their own priorities, underlining the subjectivity of interpretation.

Free Will vs. Determinism ([47:59–49:32])

• Debated mechanics of Louise’s time perception: can she change the future, or is she only witnessing inevitability?
• The crucial scene where Louise "saves the world" via a phone call: original script left her Mandarin message unspecified; ultimately, her line was, "In war, there are no winners, only widows"—though unsaid in film and purposefully left untranslated to preserve ambiguity ([48:56]).

The Emotional Core: Acceptance, Loss, and Growth

• Both hosts reflect on how accepting pain is essential to a full life—not just in parenthood, but all human experience.
• The alien’s own acceptance of death is paralleled with Louise’s—moving beyond mere plot device to a thematic core ([66:14–67:14]).

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NOTABLE SCENES & TIMESTAMPS

• Paul on emotional "amnesia" with ‘Arrival’ ([01:28])
• Denis Villeneuve on Amy Adams’ authenticity ([08:53])
• Dry-erase board linguistics scene and its creation ([24:17–26:12])
• Debate: Free will vs. determinism ([43:40–47:16])
• Amy and Paul reflect on pets and accepting loss ([33:49–34:43])
• Communication, trust, and translation as love ([51:15–56:48])
• Aliens' naming, creature design, and motif inspirations ([68:07–74:22])
• Visual analogies: ship screens, Turrell, and "Hotline Bling" ([71:58–72:45])

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FINAL THOUGHTS & FILM LEGACY

• "Arrival" remains resonant, cerebral, and ET-profound—host Amy notes it's "number 61 on the Letterboxd Top 250" and due for a critical revival ([09:39], [75:07]).
• Both hosts lament Amy Adams’ Oscar snub and celebrate her ability to authentically portray "the best version of a normal person" ([77:23]).
• Closing: The episode sets up a pivot to a "totally Iraqin’ aggro way to save the world" with "Team America: World Police" in the next podcast installment, underscoring “Arrival’s” gentle, collaborative approach by contrast.

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ESSENTIAL TAKEAWAYS

• "Arrival" boldly renders challenging ideas—linguistic relativity, determinism, and trust—into an accessible, emotionally potent cinematic experience.
• Its real achievement is layering the cosmic with the intimately human: at its heart, it’s about love, trust, and the courage to embrace life’s pain and beauty—no matter what awaits in the future.

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LISTENING GUIDE — KEY CHAPTERS

• 00:01–02:43 — Opening banter and personal reactions
• 05:05–07:04 — Short story origins and adaptation
• 07:39–09:39 — Amy Adams’ role and performance
• 09:56–13:23 — Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, linguistics
• 23:35–26:41 — "Boring" production and script decisions
• 33:49–36:35 — Philosophy of accepting pain, pets as metaphor
• 43:40–47:59 — Free will vs. fate, book-to-script changes
• 51:15–56:48 — Love, trust, and translation as the film’s message
• 57:13–62:26 — Miscommunication, religion, news as motif
• 66:14–67:14 — Alien acceptance of death, parallel to Louise

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For a moving, heady, beautifully constructed exploration of communication—across languages, cultures, and relationships—“Arrival” stands as a quietly revolutionary sci-fi drama, still demanding to be seen and discussed a decade on.

Transcript

[Paul Scheer]

The year is 2016.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Are they scientists or tourists? If they're scientists, they don't seem to ask a lot of questions. Why did they park where they did? The world's most decorated experts can't crack that one. The most plausible theory is that they chose places on Earth with the lowest incidence of lightning strikes. But there are exceptions. The next most plausible theory is that Sheena Easton had a hit song at each of these sites in 1980. So we just don't know the film Arrival.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Unspooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies and critical hits, fan favorites, must sees. And in case you missed them, we

[Amy Nicholson]

have covered the AFI top 100. And now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterbox top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb top 250, and the New York Times 1000 essential films. And actually, strange fun fact about the letterbox top 250, they just recalibrated it and one of the films we did dropped off.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, which one?

[Amy Nicholson]

Saw.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, interesting. Wow. Wow, wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, farewell to Song.

[Paul Scheer]

You know what? We have to bend with the time. Like, if we would have known that in the future and in the past, maybe we wouldn't have done it. Or maybe we would have done it anyway. Just like Amy Adams in this movie. I'm Paul Scheer. I'm an actor, writer, and director, and this movie tricks me every single time. I know I like it. I know I'm excited to see it. Then it starts and I'm like, oh, I don't know if I like this movie. And then I am crying at the end of it. It's happened three times. I have amnesia about this movie and it happens the exact same way. I don't know what this movie does to me that tricks me every time. I'm a fool for it.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for the Los Angeles Times. And actually, now that you've mentioned it, I have had my own time travel experience with this film. I saw it for the first time at Toronto when it premiered September 2016, and I was like, it's okay. I didn't quite get it the first time. I hate dead kid stuff, and I was just totally turned against it. And then when I watched it again the first week of November 2016, suddenly I was like, I understand everything about this movie. Oh, my God, I'm such an idiot. I had to really live with this film. Time had to change around me.

[Paul Scheer]

Ooh I like that. Maybe you changed too, Amy.

[Amy Nicholson]

I still hate dead kid movies. Don't even get me started.

[Paul Scheer]

No, she's not a dead kid. She's 25.

[Amy Nicholson]

She's 25. In the book, she's like 12. Here.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, you know, who knows? Who knows? We don't say it specifically.

[Amy Nicholson]

Fine, fine, fine. Saying things specifically is what this movie's all about. I'll allow it. K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boys Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Paul Scheer]

It is an honor to share with you.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, it's our honor.

[Paul Scheer]

It is our larger honor.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

[Paul Scheer]

and participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Amy Nicholson]

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[Sponsor Voice or Advertiser]

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[Amy Nicholson]

Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, unbelievably Pepsi Unspooled is sponsored by Sonos. I am saying that with a smile because my Sonos speakers have been filling my house with music and movies and podcasts for a decade. Check out how Sonos can make you happy too, @sonos.com that is sonos.com unschooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, well, Amy, let's get into it. The year is 2016, and one of the big topics of conversation is is anyone in the world actually listening to each other?

[Amy Nicholson]

And a movie comes out that is exactly about that. I mean, the pitch of arrival is that it's a story about 12 alien pods who land around the globe. The linguist Dr. Louise Banks, that's Amy Adams, who is tapped by the military to try to make first contact.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, with her is a colonel, that's Forrest Whitaker, and a physicist named Ian. And that is Jeremy Renner.

[Amy Nicholson]

They learn that the seven legged aliens, haptopods is what they call them. They have a couple different ways of communicating. There's the grumbles, And then there's this written language that's kind of a strange squiggly circle.

[Paul Scheer]

But when you listen close to the movie, it's also about humans trying to communicate with each other. And it's about the choices that we make in life.

[Amy Nicholson]

Now, arrival started as a short story called Story of youf Life by the writer Ted Chang, a screenwriter named Eric Hesser. He read the story shortly after it was published in this bigger book in the early aughts. And he had this reaction.

[Eric Heisserer]

It emotionally wrecked me. Like, I had this weird mix of just, like, feeling uplifted and hopeful and also completely shattered and just put it down and went out and hugged everybody within walking distance and just was like, wow. And then sat back down and thought, how can I torture a greater audience with this? How can I infect a bunch of people with this feeling?

[Amy Nicholson]

And then Eric started pitching the story to producers. He wound up getting rejected a hundred times is his estimation.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow. A hundred times. I didn't even know there were that many producers.

[Amy Nicholson]

Everyone's a producer out here, baby.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, I guess. So. Now, some of the notes that he got back were. I don't know, change the lead to a dude. Or what if you have a guy punch an alien in the face? Or. I got it. No flashbacks. Which for anyone who has seen Arrival, knows that that note means the person did not understand the story at all,

[Amy Nicholson]

which would be me the first time I saw it. Now Eric's starting to give up on the idea that this movie could ever get made. Because, as he says, we actually have a character saying, non linear orthography.

[Paul Scheer]

But guess what? Whenever there's a problem, whenever anything is too big, too confounding to handle, that's when Denis Villeneuve steps in. That's right. The director of Prisoners in Sicario. And he wants to make his first real science fiction film. So he attaches himself to the script, and then Amy Adams wants to make it, and suddenly the rights to this movie sell a can in a bidding war with a price tag of $20 million.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's a record, by the way, at can a record. I think before then, the biggest screenplay sale had been 8 million.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. So nobody wanted it. Now everybody wants it. Arrival gets released on November 11, 2016. It cost $47. Sorry, it costs. Excuse me. It costs $47 million. It makes $203 million. It gets eight Oscar nominations. Best Picture Director, Best Adapted Screenplay, Cinematography, Production, and the Academy Award for Best Sound Editing. It only wins the Academy Award for Best Sound Editing. This was the La La Land in Moonlight year. And you might notice that Amy Adams did not get nominated at all, which is a crime.

[Paul Scheer]

Amy. A crime on Amy's. I feel like you should be more upset about it. She's fantastic in it. And it's one of those movies where I think that she's so good in it that people don't realize that she's that good because she's not pushing. Right. It's not a showy performance. It's a internal, soft performance that I think really pays off on a second viewing. Because when you know what the movie is about, you can see her as someone who is living in a timeline that is a circle or that is constantly in motion. Right. I feel like the minute we meet her, she's there and watching it again, you can see those choices. It just is not revealed to us very much. Like, you know, the Sixth Sense.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. She's playing these layers. Like, she looks like she's grieving. She might actually just be lonely and depressed. But it's refractory. It works on both ways. And I like that you're pointing out kind of her almost casual skill, because that's the thing that Denny himself said he really admired about her, that her little choices in scenes really impressed him. Like, here's what he talks about in particular.

[Denis Villeneuve]

We were doing a scene in the hospital with a tiny baby, like, very like a newborn. Like he has a couple of days old or something. And the baby was a bit, of course, agitated. And you took him and you were so calm, and the baby became relaxed right away. And you asked me, I remember you said, no, no, I don't look real. You wanted to show your shoulders had sweat on you, mess up your hair. And I was like, so moved by your appetite, your desire for authenticity. I felt that you're the best ally for me to put all my chips on you. Because the visual effects, all that is not important. What is important is if you believe in what we were about to do. And I felt that all the time. You were my strong. You were my rock during this movie.

[Amy Nicholson]

But you know what, Paul? Time is a circle. Because what is living on? Well, this Movie is number 61 on the Letterboxd Top 250 films with the most fans. So Oscar losses aside, we have folded back in to say that this film is actually really important.

[Paul Scheer]

And, you know, looking back at this movie, there's so many things I want to talk about in the way that it was made. But I want to talk about this bigger theory that I guess is at the center of the film that I didn't know much about until I started doing research for this episode, which is the Sabre Worf hypothesis, not Worf from Star Trek. It's W H O R F about linguistic relativity. And it's a theory that posits that language shapes thoughts and perceptions of reality. And I really love this idea that her learning a language changes her reality and just letting that Kind of like, seep in for a second. That's a really heady concept.

[Amy Nicholson]

It is. I mean, Ted Chiang, when he wrote this short story, he studied linguistics for five years before he felt like he could write it. And he's leaning on this theory that comes out of a lot of people who get trained in anthropology like I did. We learn it, and then we learn that it's not necessarily true, but it's really sticky. And I like it as an idea because I think there are parts in it that feel sort of accurate. There's that old standby, like what Inuit people have, like, 30 words for snow.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. And you can also point to the Hopi tribe where their language lacks tense, which kind of gives their linguistics this timelessness.

[Amy Nicholson]

Right. And so it's like this fine line of, are we saying that their brains work differently, or are we saying that in their culture, different things are prioritized? And you can see how their brain ranks things based on what they find important. Like, maybe time doesn't matter. Or it's something like. There's this really great movie I saw a couple years ago about the invention of the pocket watch and how as soon as you could invent the second, suddenly the second started to belong to people and it started to belong to bosses. And the idea of becoming late was more of a thing once. Once we had a language for time that made time more specific, time became more important than it did in a way that was really destructive.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, that totally makes sense. We, I think, as a culture, always adapting to different ways of looking at things and time management and getting as much done in a day as possible. And when you do a lot in a day, that is rewarded. Right. Like, we are constantly recontextualizing how we live our lives. I mean, even, like, sunup, sundown, Right? Like, that was the original, you know, bedtime or, you know, rising. Like we. I think humanity is constantly just recontextualizing, you know, what the ideal way to live is, or at least that's what my TikTok tells me. I mean, I'm getting a lot of people telling me I am doing it wrong.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Why don't you spend more time on TikTok wasting your life as I tell you how to do it better?

[Paul Scheer]

Like, that's what I need. I mean, I do love this idea that, you know, you can get so attached to certain things that you don't see the, you know, the forest through the trees. And that's kind of what's happening here as well. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Or that your Language is the trees getting in the way of your forest if you're not articulating?

[Paul Scheer]

Exactly. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think that just us talking about that idea, it starts to hurt your brain a little bit. Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I'm tired. This podcast is over. We did it. What, 10 minutes.

[Paul Scheer]

And this whole movie is a film that makes, like, linguistics cinematic. Right. Which I think is a really impossible task. And I wonder if this movie is benefited by the small budget that it has, because, yes, this film sold for 20 million, but then they told Denis that he needed to make it for 45, which I believe became 47. And 45 is small for a big blockbuster and. Or at least a big sci fi film, which this is. And what you get is this kind of beautiful in between this movie that looks like a big Hollywood film, but is actually very small. It isn't expansive in the amount of locations or even the scenes. You know, it's. It's very contained. And if you talk to Denis, he would say that it's the Quebec way of doing things. Yes, we have American money. Yes, we have an American cinematographer and an American leading cast, but the crew people are the Quebecois, and they know how to put every dollar on the screen because it does not feel cheap. And we talked about Twilight last week and the budget for that. And that movie does feel cheap. Really fun, but cheap.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And this doesn't. Wait, though, I'm really glad that you brought up that Denny is from Quebec, that Denny is actually directing this film using a different language than everybody else. He's directing this not in his native French, but in English. And I love that because Denis has talked a lot about what it's like to switch back between English and French. I mean, yes, he used this movie to learn how to make sci fi movies. He builds from this. He does Bladerner, which I didn't like. He does the Dunes, which I love. He gets to direct with Timothee Chalamet, who speaks French, so he can direct with Timothy in French. But he's very aware of what it's like to direct on an English set versus what it's like to direct in his own language. I mean, he says that there are almost two different Denny's. Like, when he speaks in French, he comes across really serious, and people think that he's really serious. But when he speaks in English with effects, people think he's kind of a crazier guy. His vocabulary is smaller. He's a little bit more limited in what he can say. So he comes across. I Think more charming. And it's really interesting to hear that he's conscious this entire time he's directing this movie of what a language can mean when you translate things back and forth. And then it also leads to, you know, exchanges like this.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

He's French Canadian, so there's weird words in the Lost in Translation kind of stuff. And he'd be speaking to very softly and I can't do his accent, but you know, there's the translation of O's and U's and. Cause he would tell us, you know, we're going to take the camera and instead of saying focus, we're going to us.

[Amy Nicholson]

We're going to us on Amy. Jeremy, listen, we're going to us on

[Eric Heisserer]

Amy and take the camera and come

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

over and come on your face.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, my God. Also, by the way, I was watching some B roll of Denny on the set and at one point he was wearing a T shirt. I loved it. Said, I am willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong. It's a lot of words to put on a T shirt. And you know, hey, why not? It is spring, one of the best seasons to throw up in the closet and say, okay, what am I gonna wear this time of year? Getting dressed is all about layers. A shirt for the afternoon jacket, sweater for the evening. Mixing and matching pieces that let you kind of shape shift throughout the day. And that starts with Quint. Because they excel at classic, well made pieces that are versatile everyday clothes that can go with everything. Quince has just that foundational piece you need. Whether you're looking for that great basic you can wear with your wacky vintage, like, you know, solid, high quality t shirts and 100% Pima cotton. That's the ultra soft cotton they have for just 19 bucks or what I'm really into this season. Short sleeved Mongolian cashmere T shirts. Because I can dress them up, I can dress them down wherever I'm going, they actually fit perfectly. Quince has them in 13 colors. My personal favorites. I'm rocking the most right now, burgundy and also bright red. And I'm really secretly very jealous of what they've got in the guy section. This organic cotton mesh button up polo shirt. It's simple, but the texture is also awesome. I'm really looking at the one in light blue. I think it's amazing. It's casual, goes with everything. Kind of interesting. All on its own, though, Quince, they make beautiful pieces with elevated fabrics that are just always in style. They are not about disposable trends. They are not about disposable clothes. They are about helping you make a smart purchase at a fair price. They work directly with ethical factories and they cut out the middleman. So you're paying for the item itself, not the brand markup. So refresh your spring wardle with quince. Go to quince.comunspooled for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to quince.com unspooled for free shipping and 360 five day returns. Quince.comunspooled you are hungry. Starving sneaks up on you sometimes. But how do you eat healthy? That takes preparation. It means stocking your fridge with nutritious, delicious meals. And Factor makes that really easy. Super easy to reach for something you feel good about eating. Factor fits whatever your personal meal goal is, whether what matters to you most is having more protein in your life or fewer calories. If you're into weight loss or strength building or just all around nutrition, Factor offers over a hundred rotating weekly meals that are always fresh, never frozen. And they make them with whole foods like lean proteins, colorful vegetables. We're not talking any corn syrup, no sweeteners, none of that. I'm also gluten free and that could not be less of a problem at Factor. Oh, they've got the smoky Gouda chicken that comes on these roasted potatoes. They've got this beef risotto with truffles and a side of broccoli. It's awesome. They also offer now snacks and smoothies like their chocolate banana protein drink or their peanut butter energy bites. Those are great when I'm running out the door for a movie. And also personally, Factor has been a double lifesaver. Now that I'm back in the office of it, I can grab my Factor lunch in two seconds as I'm heading out the door. And then they're ready. Two minutes easy meal done. So head to factormeals.com unspooled 50 off. That's unspooled 50 off and use code unspooled 50 off to get 50% off in free daily greens per box. New subscription only while supplies last until September 27, 2026. See website for more details. Thank you to Sonos for sponsoring this episode of Unspooled, especially this episode and this movie, which is all about sound. But whatever you're planning to watch later Sci Fi musical, maybe some basketball Sonos speakers make it sound better. Their Arc Ultra soundbars use Dolby Atmos technology, which means they can project alien noises and tap shoes and sneaker squeaks all around your living room. It is awesome. And if you're more in the mood for a, I don't know, mumbly British comedy, they've got you covered there too. They have speech enhancement settings that make sure you do not miss a word. In my place, I've also got two smart speakers behind me in the corner so that I can really feel like I'm in the theater. And all of the speakers connect to each other wirelessly and I can control them and all the other Sonos speakers in my house right from my phone. So if I want to take a stretch, make some popcorn, I could just tap, tap, play a song everywhere. So how can Sonos improve your nights in. Check out sonos.com to see what speakers and soundbars are right for you. That is sonos.com

[Paul Scheer]

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[Amy Nicholson]

Unspooled. And there's a way where the cheapness of it is almost part of the design, I think, you know, because he said that he wanted to make a sci fi film that felt really grounded and a little bit boring. Like boring was a keyword, which I think is fascinating. He's like, I want to make a science fiction film and make it boring. But it's the boringness of it. Kind of the mundanity of just like, hey, we're in the tents. Hey, we're in the field. Hey, this is a normal truck. Hey, I'm at a dry erase board. That make it feel believable. Like, one of the details I really love is that there's this scene where Amy Adams is doing a thing that should give you flashbacks and nightmares to being a child, where she's basically diagramming a sentence on a dry erase board. It's this scene right here.

[Actor Reading Lines or Character Voice]

So first, we need to make sure that they understand what a question is. The nature of a request for information, along with the response. Then we need to clarify the difference between a specific you and a collective you. Because we don't want to know why Joalien is here. We want to know why they all landed. And purpose requires an understanding of intent. We need to find out do they make conscious choices, or is their motivation so instinctive that they don't understand a why question at all? And biggest of all, we need to have enough vocabulary with them that we understand their answer.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, and by the way, weird fun fact about why that scene even exists. It's because the original screenplay had a ton more scenes of them learning the language. Slower, more step by step, more explaining all of these ideas. And the producers are like, we cannot shoot all of this. This is not cool. Well, here I'll just let Eric explain the first draft.

[Eric Heisserer]

The very first draft, I had a whole series of scenes that were little scenelets, really, of Louise teaching very basic vocabulary to the heptapods. And Ian would demonstrate, and it was just super, like kindergarten level words. And they were like, eric, this is not sexy at all. This is really boring. This is really. I don't want to. No actor is going to want to try and do, what are you doing here? What are you doing? And I went to their whiteboard and I wrote, this is the question we're trying to get to. And here's how difficult it is, and here's how many sessions you have. And after all of that, then you have to have enough vocabulary with them so that they can answer the question. And you can't even go specific, you know, because I said, what's a Pulaski? And they're like, we don't know. And I'm like, well, it's a tool that firefighters use. You can't start with Pulaski. You gotta start with tool. And they just stared at me for a while and they're like, that's the scene that goes in the movie. Get rid of this other crap. That's the scene.

[Amy Nicholson]

So, yeah, this scene is really just a patch for a bunch of other scenes that would have been a lot less erotic than sentence diagramming. Now, I want to talk a little bit more about that scene in a second, but the detail I want to say right now is, what I really love about it is as she's diagramming that sentence on a dry erase board, her marker's kind of dry. It's not writing exactly perfectly. And it's faint in a way that just makes it feel like, oh, yeah, I know that office I've been in that. That's like, livable. It's not like, oh, our marker's perfect. No.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I think that this movie doesn't feel like we are in the most state of the art facilities at a given moment. Right. It is very attainable. Like most of these films, when you have a dinosaur loose or an alien attack, like we are in a command center that feels like they're going to have the freshest dry erase markers and the freshest dry erase erasers. But no, here it is really, it Feels rushed, right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, yes, we had to hurry up. We had to get these tents here.

[Paul Scheer]

And I do think that this speaks to this larger theory. And going back to how we originally started the episode, this idea of miscommunication, right? And diagramming a sentence, which I'm watching my kids do now, and I don't even know how to help them because I'm like, I don't know. It upsets me. I don't like it. But it shows how important language is and how there can be so much miscommunication. We can have that with our friends. We can have that with our partners. And then when you're trying to go out and do something in the world, you know, where you aren't given the benefit of the doubt, there's so many places where you can just, I don't know, insult somebody or give off the wrong vibe, the wrong signal. And I think that this movie does a really great job of talking about how hard it is to communicate when we don't share this, like, a commonality. And even when we have the same language, it's still hard to communicate. And we're watching Amy Adams try to communicate to the people around her, not just the aliens, right? And what they will listen to and what they won't. And she eventually has to go around everybody speak in someone else's native tongue to get them to trust her so she can actually make a difference. Like, there are so many steps to take to gain trust, to have something become actionable.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And yet in that scene that we just played with the question, one of the levels I like hearing in it is Forest Whitaker, his colonel. He's like, hey, I need an answer. What's happening? I have this military going down my. Breathing, down my neck. Like, they need to know if this is war or not. They need to know if we need to, like, sp into action. In a way, war is a military's 30 types of snow. They're sort of designed to see everything because that's their job through do I go to work on war or not? Right. In a way, maybe that's fair, Maybe it's not entirely fair. But you bring a librarian to this site, her question's gonna be like, okay, what do I organize and how. What your passion is and how you see the world kind of frames how you see what you're supposed to do as your next step. So the military, their next step has to be war, yes or no, basically. And she's trying to come at this problem from a different angle, which is the Language angle. And what's happening in the scene that I find great is, like, it's not taking the lazy way of writing it, where the Forest Whitaker character is like, I'm a big old jar head and here's what I think we have to do, and blah, blah, blah, little missy. And she's not like, excuse me, I'm a snotty scientist and you're stupid. They're actually. Even though they're disagreeing on the mechanics, they're collaborating on the same goal and they're listening to each other in that scene. And I really respect that. Like, it's not written in the drama for the sake of drama. Screenplay school.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. These characters are not at each other's throats. And even her partnering with Jeremy Renner, who is a stranger, you can see that there are moments where they don't see eye to eye necessarily, or they aren't like, you know, they aren't partners per se, but they have to work together, and they have to, like, work with each other and figure out. And each person brings a little piece to the table.

[Amy Nicholson]

They're the nerds.

[Paul Scheer]

I do think it's like this. Yeah, well. And I think that that's part of it. Right? Which is really allowing yourself to listen to someone else. That's the only way that this gets solved, this problem gets solved. Because I think that we live in a time, and I think we've lived in this time for a very long time, where what's the answer? What's the next step? And what this movie is kind of saying is, can you take a hundred steps back and look at the reverberations that each step that we will take will have? Obviously, Amy Adams character is gifted, this ability to see everything in life, but it does ask the question, if you knew all the things in front of you, would you act the same way?

[Amy Nicholson]

Right. Which is so funny, because when I think about watching this movie for the second time in 2016, I think about how, you know, it was a week after the election and everybody in my social media field was like, we have to be doing a lot more listening. We have to be doing a lot more listening. We all have to read the book Hillbilly Elegy. And now I'm like, oh, but I see where this future goes. Like, when I watch this movie, I go back to that week, and I feel that urgency and that drive to communicate, and then I get scared.

[Paul Scheer]

But what I love about this movie is while it has elements of time travel, and I use that very loosely because it's not about her injecting herself in the past or future. It does say that. It's not about changing everything. It's really about embracing. Embracing it and being thankful for it. Right. Cause the movie really does say, like, she knows that her child will eventually pass away, but she has a child anyway. And she's in this calm state about it because she sees the world differently. Whereas Jeremy Renner's character can't see the world like that. It's too much for him. It's. He can't enjoy the moment of it because he's actually thinking about the end of it, where she is looking at something that never ends, that is consistently in motion, which is a beautiful way of looking at life. And I think anyone you ask would say, I need the heartache to appreciate. I don't know what the opposite of heartache is. The love. We have those things we want those things. We never want to be going through them. But when you look back on your life, you do see, like, oh, that that peak was good, because then I needed that valley. Or conversely, that valley. Let me enjoy that peak more. And, you know, is that too much for us to handle? Are we much better? You know, in a roller coaster, in the dark, just going, okay, now we're going down. Let me react to that. Okay, now we're going up. Let me react to that. And I think that as humans, we have a hard time looking forward. We can really obsess about the back, but I think we have a harder time seeing, like, a few steps ahead.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, it's funny because in a way, it's almost a different angle on the eternal sunshine question, you know, deciding to love something when you know what the problems are and you know how it will break your heart, which to me is beautiful. I feel like that's almost the best way we are able to even walk through being a human being on this planet. I mean, whoever. Oh, God, I'm about to get so depressing. Whoever you love in life is definitely going to die. Or like a pet. I think about this all the time with a pet. We choose pets knowing that we will probably outlive them. So every time you choose a puppy, you are also choosing an old dog that you will wind up crying for. Same thing with my cats. Like, we choose to hurt ourselves, and it's absolutely worth it. I would choose having my cats 9,000 times again, but in a way, we're making this bargain all the time.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I also think, you know, what we're doing is agreeing to live life Life isn't always making the right decisions. Life isn't always about having the best outcome. But we become, you know, this version of ourselves through the trauma. I keep on saying, when I was on my book tour, I would say that trauma is the fire in which we are forged. And it's easier to say that when you look back at the past than it is to accept that you are, you know. You know, going through something in the moment. Right. It's. It's. It's easier to be like, I'm out of it, so I can reflect on it now more positively. But no one wants to go into something knowing it's going to be bad. Like, yes, that is depressing, what you said about the dog. But I think most people who adopt a dog don't assume it's going to die. Right? Like, you have to kind of put it out of your mind.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, well, right.

[Paul Scheer]

And again. But then why would you have kids? Why would you have any? Like, everything is open. Why would you fall in love? Why would you have any experience? Right. If there's a version of that where it's like, any food will kill you, too, potentially. Like, oh, you could, you know, not kill you, but you could get very bad food poisoning, you know.

[Amy Nicholson]

Wait, so you're coming at this from the renter side of things where, like, knowing it makes it harder to do it?

[Paul Scheer]

I think that. No, I am saying that. That culturally, I think that we are like that. I think that that is a. I don't think that as a society, we are open to let it be bad and then let it be good. And then it will be this and it will be that. Like, we want to control it. We want to be like, I want this moment to be good. I want this now. Like, I think that as a society, we are all renters to a certain extent. I mean, none of us can see the future. Right? But if you could, is that something you could live with?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, and it seems like to be a parent, you have to fight off your inner runner, because as a parent, I imagine you want to protect your kids from anything bad happening to them, including having their heart broken when they're older and they start dating. And then that becomes a whole other nest of problems. Because if. If people aren't hurt, they don't grow, right? I mean, I don't know, maybe there's some other people out there who manage to grow fine. But.

[Paul Scheer]

No, but that's what that. I mean, that's what we're talking about. It's everything in life you know, you. That's life. And she's got this beautiful way of, sorry, I'll come out of your thing and say, right. And that life is, you know, failure and success. And you don't appreciate the other unless you've had both. You know, one of the things that I've been on this Jackass kick for a little bit, my sons are into jackass, and we've been watching a lot of Jackass. And I listened to this Johnny Knoxville quote that I thought was great, which is, if you're not failing, then you're not doing it right. Because failure is a part of success. And, you know, I think that we are in a culture that values optimization and not making mistakes and kind of being perfect. And.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, you're TikTok videos. I'm gonna have the best breakfast to

[Paul Scheer]

fuel my brain a hundred percent. Right. And. And that optimization, I don't think is good for us. The optimization isn't like it's. We can't game the system. And I think that we are.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Whenever I read those articles about people who are like, here's how I game the system and I read their day, I'm like, that sounds like fucking misery. You Woke up at 4:30, you chugged all these egg whites, you worked out all day and you didn't hang out with any friends. Like, what are you doing?

[Paul Scheer]

And it seems like all you're gonna do is talk about the things that you're doing. And that to me it's like, well, then you're not living life. And yes, you might live a longer life. You might. But you also might walk into the middle of the street and get hit by a car. And that's like the grand joke of this, right? Yeah. You don't know. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think about that.

[Paul Scheer]

You could stave off death, but my

[Amy Nicholson]

dad ran marathons and died of natural causes at 49. My grandmother chain smoked and lived on nothing. But Little Debbie snack cakes lived till her late 80s. Who knows, man? Maybe it doesn't that much.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, I mean, and I guess there's also this question of if you had the knowledge of the future, would you tell someone? Because she does tell, you know, Jeremy Renner what their future is or, you know, it's alluded to.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. In this scene right here, it's my fault.

[Actor Reading Lines or Character Voice]

I told him something that he wasn't ready to hear.

[Amy Nicholson]

What?

[Actor Reading Lines or Character Voice]

Believe it or not, I know something that's going to happen. I can't explain how I know it just do. And when I told you, Daddy got really mad. And he said, I made the wrong choice. Good.

[Paul Scheer]

By the way, that's my only issue with this entire movie. Because no kid would take that as an answer. Be like, well, what did you tell him? Or why did he. There's a. There's about 45 more questions after that. That is not. I love the way she acted that scene. But they cut off before that kid starts peppering her nonstop until she's like, okay, you die. And he left because he couldn't handle it. O, leave me alone now.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I have to say, I like that Renner sucks, right? It's nice. It's nice that, like, the emphasis of arrival isn't. I'm gonna fall in love with this guy, and he's the best. It's like, I fall in love with this guy. He doesn't die. He just ditches us. He just leaves. He's fine. This wasn't a great love story.

[Paul Scheer]

But can I say, just for the sake of argument, that he doesn't suck in the sense that he's overwhelmed. And I do think that I would blame Amy Adams for that. I wouldn't tell him that.

[Amy Nicholson]

How's she supposed to keep it to herself?

[Paul Scheer]

I think so, because she is living in this rare air. And this is kind of the ethics of this foreknowledge, if you will. She can see and she is at peace with the life that she's living because it is a circle. It is constantly something she can move through. He can't. So when you tell him that it's a completely different way that he will receive that because he is not living in that reality. He doesn't have that language. He wasn't gifted that.

[Amy Nicholson]

He wasn't smart enough to figure it out. He's a physicist. It's not his fault. I don't understand anything he's talking about. And I like that she just erases his math. I also like that the movie just erases basically everything he did. I think they shot of him also adding his physics to this being like, yes, and. But it didn't make any sense. And they're like, you know, our focus here is language.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think, really, this is the genius of this movie. Because while it's heady, while it's this big, our idea, it's grounded in this emotional story, this emotional story of a family, a family with a child. And you see snapshots, and it comes together in a really beautiful way. I saw this movie, right? My son was born in. My second son was born in 2016. And I saw this, like, right after he was born, I was bawling. And this movie got me hard because, you know, it's just dealing with. You're looking at this life in front of you. And I do think that that grounds everything else is this movie. You know, if you take out the flashbacks, obviously there's really no movie. But I do think that putting it within this relationship that's not super magical, that's not, you know, the two most perfect people actually makes us hit home a lot harder in a way, because we can connect our own story to their story.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, the movie even makes, I think, a choice not to show us that many future forward scenes of her being happy with him. When she chugs that glass of wine before he's like, let's make a baby. I almost think of it as her being like, well, I guess here we go. I guess I gotta do this. Which is not fair. It is not fair. But I do think this movie wrestles with that idea of would she even have the free will to say no to him? Would she want to or not? Would you do it anyways? I mean, that was, I think, a disagreement that went all the way down to between, like, the screenwriter, Eric and Ted Chiang, when they would talk about the story, is they both saw this predetermined future in different ways.

[Eric Heisserer]

The message in Ted's story there was more about Louise embracing the inevitable. It was a very kind of deterministic realization that likely everything is predestined and you just gotta find a way to make peace with that. And I was a bit rebellious about. I'm like, ted, I don't like that. I don't like that at all. I think it's more profound for me if she has a choice, if she has free will and can change her future, and yet she chooses to have Hannah. That, to me, is more affecting. And that's really where I wanted to land on it. But if I did that, then I had to make sure it wasn't a rock climbing accident in which Louise could just call the date before and say, hey, don't go.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh. And what you're hearing, by the way, is that, yeah, in the book, the girl dies at 25 because she is rock climbing.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, really?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, yeah. It's not an incurable disease. It was like the incurability, as Eric was just saying, is like the thing that now you can't evade because otherwise you would back to the future it.

[Paul Scheer]

Right, exactly. Because I think it's like, we'll just be at the end of the Mountain and catch her. Right, Right. And I. And I feel like this movie doesn't really get into how to, like, can you change the future? It's like, the future. It is. There's no change. Right. Because I think that maybe that's part of it too. We're looking at it like, oh, if you could see the future, would you change it? But it's like, if you could see the future, would you? I don't know.

[Amy Nicholson]

I get confused, to be honest. Because she can go into the future to find out stuff. Right. Like, she went into the future to find a phone number that she doesn't

[Paul Scheer]

know from someone else, but she's not changing anything. And.

[Amy Nicholson]

But how would she ever. It doesn't quite make sense to me.

[Paul Scheer]

There are a couple things that are hard to kind of parse in that way. Like, it's faded. This is the circle. This is the play. It will happen like this every single night. And you can try to avoid it, but it's going to move in the same direction. It will always right itself. That's how I kind of feel it is. Because there's a part of me that feels like that moment where the. The man that she calls, the man from China that she calls and he comes and speaks to her.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, yeah, General Shang, yes.

[Paul Scheer]

When he speaks to her, it's her remembrance of it, not necessarily how I think it played out, because it's so expository to be comical. He's like, oh, remember, you called me on my phone. Here it is. And this is what you said to me. And he whispers in her ear, like, there's something about that that feels like, oh, that's not really what happened. That's her memory of what happened. And that flash forward is triggering a larger thing that's putting all the pieces together. Right? I mean. Or am I wrong in that?

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't know. Cause I do get a little bit confused here. Because when she can go back and forth in time in her head, or I'm probably even describing it wrong, since she's going back and forth, I guess she's looking at this other part of the circle from the part of the circle that she is standing on, and she can help her kid with her homework, I don't quite get that. And then I don't understand how you wouldn't use that skill for the rest of your life. Like, where did I leave my keys? You know?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. I mean, there's a thing that Ted Chang said, the author of the book, he said that, you know, his book was about free will in a determined universe. Like, once you know the future, the emotional tension comes from you feeling that you should be able to change it, but you can't.

[Amy Nicholson]

And none of the General Shang stuff is in the story at all to begin with, so it's not more explained there.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. Yes. Well, I wonder how they solve. Well, yeah, I think that they do a lot of things like that that make the movie a little bit more cinematic in that way. Like, it does build to this kind of racing moment of her being on the phone, making the phone call, stopping war from breaking out. But I feel like what this movie does, it kind of reinterprets free will in the sense that she does choose. She doesn't fight the future. She goes with it. Again, I'm not sure if the movie allows you to change it. Like, she couldn't say, no, let's not have a baby. I don't think she could.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't know. Or. Yeah, it seems very iffy to me, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I do find kind of funny, though, is, like, in that scene we're talking about in that pivotal one that originally in the Screamplay, Eric Hesserer just wrote, and then she tells him something in Mandarin, but he didn't actually write what she said. And then he gets this panicked phone call from Denis Villeneuve.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Eric Heisserer]

We were about three months away from shooting, and Denis calls me Erik, Eric, what did she say?

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I don't know.

[Eric Heisserer]

She says something about it. I have the woman here who translates from Mandarin. She's going to teach Amy Adams what to say. What does she say? I'm like, you have to teach. Oh, right. Because she's actually saying, oh. Oh, God. And she's like, eric, Eric, Eric. This is the line that saves the world. This is the most important line in the whole movie. Eric, what have you done to me? You must find this for me right now. And I'm like, oh, God, I started sweating. I just come up with, like, draft after draft after draft.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, Eric wound up saying that she says to the general in Mandarin, is in war, there are no winners, only widows. Which seems like such a bummer of a last line to say to your husband as you're dying, but I guess you want to make him a better man. But then also, don't you be like, I loved you, or goodbye, or, don't bury me in this awful place, or if you remarry, she's got to be cool or something like that. But part of the weird choice that Denis Villeneuve made after that was he decided not to even subtitle that line. So if you watch the movie, you have no idea what she said. He went full Lost in Translation, I guess, with it. Leave the mystery.

[Paul Scheer]

And I don't think that you need it. Right, because it's not important to. Because it really is. That is her. Not mea culpa, but that's her. Like that's her way to connect with him. Right. He trusts her because she must know something, right? There is something going on here. Now. Oh, wait a second now. I just had a thought. What did he. He wasn't also gifted language, was he?

[Amy Nicholson]

The general? No, I can't remember. They were playing mahjong. He didn't learn the language.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, so. But I do love that idea that, you know, to. To be able to communicate with somebody, you really have to be in it with them. Right? Like that was her key to open up a conversation where he would actually listen. Like he said that thing you did something that no one was able to do. Change my mind. And how did she do that? By listening, by connecting, by not only embracing him, but actually like meeting him where he is at. And I think that that's an important thing, especially in the context of 2016. How do we communicate better? We have to like let down everything and we have to. Sometimes we have to get on our knees in front of somebody else in a way to show them that we are completely on their side, you know, so they feel safe enough to actually listen. Because listening is a two way. You know, communication is a two way street. You can communicate anything, but if it's not listened to properly or if it's perceived as not being sincere, then you can't make anything happen.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah, and that's what I find really interesting. And kind of layering just even what the screenplay is about over the act of getting this movie made. Cause it makes me think of this idea, listening to Eric talk about changing the ending with Ted and figuring out how to do it or how to navigate this scene with Denis Villeneuve. You realize that even in writing a screenplay, you're translating the intentions of an original story. And then to direct a screenplay is to translate the intentions of the script itself. And that at every step of the level and everything that we do in making a film, it's an act of translation. Because what you're describing right now is that humans have to take a risk, right? We have to take a leap of faith. We have to put in some effort to try to bridge this communication gap. And I think that Denny takes that idea and as a director, translates it visually. Like in Ted Chiang's book, they don't really talk about how to go up and down from the ship. They don't really even go up and down from the ship. But Denny has this idea that these spacecraft who he turns from spheres into, I guess, like cough drops, almonds, I don't know that they are floating just off the ground. And for us humans to have to talk to them, we actually have to put in some effort ourselves. Like, we have to get the little, you know, the crane thing and raise ourselves up. We have to climb into their hallway. And then we have to take that really beautiful visual symbolization of a leap of faith. We have to leap and trust in the anti gravity, learn about the anti gravity. And so he's building in all of those ideas, but making them visual. And I think that that's such a beautiful metaphor for what making a movie is.

[Paul Scheer]

And I would even go one step further and say that what you're describing is love. And we think about love as very romantic. But really any real relationship where you are committed to connecting to someone else, whether you're making a movie for people to see, you're putting yourself out there, you're being earnest, you're being honest, whether you are in a relationship, whether you have a friend, like, those are the relationships. We always are putting ourselves out there. And every relationship, every movie, everything that we put into the world is done, I think, with this love. And when the stuff that doesn't work or the relationships that fall apart are the ones that are inauthentic.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know what? I'm gonna retranslate your word love and say that to me, the word I would choose is trust. Because I don't know if this movie is like, America needs to love China, America needs to love Russia. But it's like America needs to trust them at least. And I think trust is as brave as love in a lot of ways.

[Paul Scheer]

Absolutely. Yeah. Because you're trusting. Yeah, I believe that. I like it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Change my words.

[Amy Nicholson]

But trust is not. And I think that there's. Gosh, now I'm really thinking about how even in the communication that we see between Amy Adams and the Heptapods, it's being framed by this gigantic white rectangle, and we're looking at each other through screens. And that screen. I mean, I remember seeing this in a theater. It just looks like you're seeing a screen and a screen, a movie screen and another screen. And it feels like that idea of we go to movies and sit in front of screens. Because the figures that we see up there, they also show us a way of thinking about the world. You know, that's what a movie is. It's like Amy Adams is up there doing this pantomime for a story about how, hey, we should leave the theater and try to trust each other better. And that's exactly what she's seeing inside the rectangular herself. Rectangle. Trustception.

[Paul Scheer]

That's the original title of this, oddly, which is. Yeah, it really is.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, the reason it's not called the Story of youf Life is because Denis thought it sounded like a rom com.

[Paul Scheer]

I agree. But I will say this because as you are changing my words, I also am realizing what you just said. There is love can exist without trust, and trust can exist without love. But the most human way to be is when they converge. Right. Love is radical trust. And I think that that's what this movie is showing you. Like, she trusts these heptapods, and then she makes these choices of, you know, she trusts them. And then in that trust, it opens her up to, well, hold on, wait.

[Amy Nicholson]

I feel like even in taking these words and tying them together, we're turning into, like, a superior warf hypothesis of ourselves. Because I'm like, you have to get through. I'm like, there is no real love if you don't trust that person. But then if I trust somebody that deeply, maybe I do wind up loving them in a way.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I think that that's what this movie is, is like when you can trust somebody. You are giving everything over and you are trusting the ride. I mean, that's really what it is. Does she need to have a dead child? Like, this movie doesn't say, like, oh, well, your child dies, so you will then do a blank and then have another blank. That's not part of it. It's not like you need to sacrifice to get this. It's just right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Cause that would be linear.

[Paul Scheer]

Right? So I do think it is about both things coming together. The perfect lived life, or the best way to communicate with somebody is to have love and to have trust with them.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I think part of why we're drilling into this so deeply is because this is reflected to me in the screenplay, the idea that there's that whole difference between weapon and tool, you know, that this choice to define a word that they're saying as weapon or tool radically changes how we see a sentence. I mean, we see here, like, Russia absolutely freaking out by, like, misinterpreting what the heptapods are saying, two hours ago,

[Eric Heisserer]

we pulled this audio off a secure channel in Russia. Someone on the science team there was broadcasting wide.

[Amy Nicholson]

In their final session, the aliens said, there is no time. Many become one. I fear we have all been given weapons. If anyone is receiving this, please.

[Actor Reading Lines or Character Voice]

Well, I mean, there are a lot of ways you can interpret what he said.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I don't need an interpreter to know what this means.

[Paul Scheer]

Russia just executed one of their own experts to keep their secret.

[Actor Reading Lines or Character Voice]

Many become one could just be their way of saying some assembly required.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Why hand it out to us in pieces?

[Paul Scheer]

Why not just give it all over?

[Actor Reading Lines or Character Voice]

What better way to force us to work together for once?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, Amy Adams comes out of there, and she's like, you know, there's a different way of looking at that. And we could phrase it this way. And she sounds so nervous in that room. She sounds almost like she's certain she will be overruled the way that you would if you were like, okay, I know that this guy I'm dating hasn't texted me in, like, three weeks, but I think it's just because I make him nervous and I intimidate him. And, like, that's how I'm interpreting this. Because you can definitely interpret things wrong on the gentle side as well. I mean, in a way, I feel like there are metaphors in this movie about what it's like, even just the act of dating. What do you want when you have this first encounter with something? Do you wanna say, hey, I'm coming in to this hot. I have a question for you. What do you want out of this? Which is basically sitting down at a first date and being like, you want kids. What's up? Right. Yeah, but how do you get around there? How do you actually build to that conversation? How do you find out that you're talking about the same thing?

[Paul Scheer]

I think what you're also highlighting is this movie is sensitive and emotional and fragile. And I think even the visual approach here. That's Bradford Young, who was the cinematographer on this. You know, everything in this movie is lit in this, like, you know, soft, low contrast, fog, overcast. Like the world feels fragile. Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Like it does.

[Paul Scheer]

It doesn't feel like we're not, like, seeing the bright sun and the big day. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

The shiny Marvel type of command center. It all feels like it could fall apart.

[Paul Scheer]

It's all muted. Right. And. And I do think that. I think that that helps make it feel troubled. And I think that what you see later on in the film is when she's home and we're seeing that life. It is warmer, right? The world is a better place than. But I think that the way that the film is lit is in this moment where we might be on the precipice of war. The world is reflecting that kind of not embracing color. It's nervous, it's holding on.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, tents are unstable. And we hear the instability around the country. I think part of how they managed to keep this budget so low is that they do do that thing of leaning on news clip footage of what's happening around the world instead of having to show any of the scenes itself. Like when they're talking about what's going on in America right now and why

[Paul Scheer]

can't we get a news footage to look good? The only one who did it good was one of the Mission Impossibles where they literally shot in Wolf Blitzer studio. Like, let's get back to why are we doing this? Why can't we get a graphics package that looks good? Every studio should just invest in buying a news studio and just being able to build all graphic packages. I mean, they can. They have it, don't they? Come on.

[Amy Nicholson]

They all. We are now learning that every movie studio owns a news channel.

[Paul Scheer]

So, hey, it's right there.

[Amy Nicholson]

But here's the news clip that I want to play.

[Eric Heisserer]

Violence continues to spread across the US today in the wake of the 12 landings. The President has declared a mandatory dusk to dawn curfew after the crackdown by the National Guard failed to prevent a third night of looting across the country.

[Paul Scheer]

In North Dakota, 144 members of the

[Eric Heisserer]

St. Lawrence Pentecostal cult are feared dead after they set their compound ablaze. Their website claims the arrival of the aliens set in motion a prophecy that 12 sets of 12 should fall off.

[Amy Nicholson]

What I really enjoy about that clip is you see Denny taking this idea of miscommunications and misunderstandings and tilting it away even from politics into the whole nature of religion. Like this movie does not get that deep into religion. It doesn't get into that question that Ridley Scott would oh, no, I'm looking at these aliens. I must question everything about spirituality. But in there you do see how religions cults have misunderstood things as a Jesus prophecy. Nothing that's what's happening with these like aliens has anything to do about like the end times, but it's just how they take it. Also. Wait, you were talking about her house for a second. I will say that that is the one quibble that linguists themselves also have with the film. In addition to the Sapir wife Wharf hypothesis. They're like, none of us have enough money to have a house anything like that. What are you doing?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, after she wrote that book. I don't know if that's a barn burner though. Running off the. I don't know if that's the next Twilight just selling hot like hotcakes. Ooh, the linguist book.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, who knows? Maybe it's like the linguistics freakonomics.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, yes, absolutely. I do want to talk about death too. I mean, we've talked a lot about this kid dying and I know how you feel about that, but I do think that there's something interesting. You're talking about the screen and, you know, they're in this cavern and Villeneuve was saying that, like, he wanted the ship to be like a subconscious representation of death. You know, this idea, like we're in this, you know, long tunnel and there's something moving in the white light, like in front of us, like, come to the white light. You know, this idea of like, I guess rebirth in a weird way. Because once she goes to the white light, goes into the white light, she is reborn and has a godlike power.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, she does look so good. Yeah, yeah, she has the godlike power of good hair.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh my God, it's really flowing. You know, my wife did a show and this is a fun thing for everyone to recognize now when you see things, she went up in space in the show and you know, her character has her hair very, you know, it's down to her shoulders the entire time it's loose. And then the minute they go in space, it's so tight, it's like there. Because they can't afford the CGI to make the hair look like flowy like that. It's like, it's just so expensive. And so whenever you watch anything, like watch women's hair, and then when they go to space, it just gets clamped down like it's. It is. The only reason is cause it's too expensive to do.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, I don't look good on a French braid. I guess that means I can't go to space. My bangs are probably real stupid.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, it would just be flying up there.

[Amy Nicholson]

I would look like. I would look like. There's something about Mary.

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[Paul Scheer]

You know what's kind of beautiful is we've talked so much about, you know, her acceptance of death. But you know, these aliens also have that acceptance too, right? They know that this trip here is going to take one of them. Yeah, they know that they are on a suicide mission. Or at least one of them is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, that's.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's why they don't react in a way that's, you know, immediate, right? Like they're comfortable understanding how the world plays out. But I never think about that. I don't think about the alien knowing, oh yes, this is where I am. This is where my life is ending. And I think that that is, you know, that's where this movie has an interesting parallel as well. I guess maybe we don't, you know, want to give that much emotionality to the heptapod but the heptapod, like, going through the. What does they say?

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, the death process.

[Paul Scheer]

The death process, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

That it knows that it is making a choice, that it will not be coming back from this trip. And there's a lot we don't know about them. We don't know about. Do they have a life or a love life back home? I mean, part of why I'm glad we're doing this now is because there's that movie coming out, project Hail Mary. And these movies, to me, feel like they're almost fun echoes of each other.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[Amy Nicholson]

Absolutely. And you're right. I think it took me until my third watch to really realize that when one of the scientists is like, man, they're really incurious. They don't ask us any questions about ourselves. What are they doing here? It's just because they already know all the answers. They know exactly what's happening. They don't need to ask us anything. But you know what I do have a quibble with? I do have a quibble with the fact that they would name them Abbott and Costello, because doesn't that feel a little old? Like Abbott and Costello feels like. I don't know, an older journal might name them that.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I guess we're not like. But I don't think we're, like, naming hurricanes like Kylie, you know, or, you know, like, we're like. You know, we're kind of like. I think that there's a lot of,

[Amy Nicholson]

oh, my God, in our lifetime, there will be a Hurricane Kylie, because it'll sound like an old name. There'll be a hurricane Kyler, you know.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, I think that there's something universal about keeping it. I guess Bud and Lou would have been interesting, but Abbott and Costello are kind of a nice duo. Oscar and Felix, none of those work as good as Abbott and Costello.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, I mean, I do like, though, that when we go behind the screen to her shampoo commercial, that you realize that even the way we've interpreted what they look like, which to me is just the thing with two extra fingers, that they're so much bigger than that, that what we can see in that screen actually isn't even the truth. And I think that's such a neat, subtle way of saying even what you see is not necessarily the full picture, that they're just tall and there's this gigantic shape above them. And I appreciate that the film doesn't have to hammer that point home and go, wow, I couldn't see all of you through the screen. It's just there.

[Paul Scheer]

But I guess that goes to the larger thing of communication. Don't judge a book by its cover. We're looking at the COVID when we're looking through the screen. And then, you know, essentially she's in the book and then she's getting to see even more, Right? This idea that it's a constant evolution, understanding somebody gaining their trust to learn more about them. And the more that they trust you, the more they will show of themselves. And that's kind of the beauty of this movie is it continually unravels itself to her. And, you know, to your point, I don't think that they need to know anything about humans. Not they don't need to know because they know. But the only thing that they really need to do is give this gift so they can save themselves in the future. Like, that's all they really need, is that this gift is something that will help them. They don't need to. Like, they're not coming here because, like, in my film that I was in, Meet Dave, they needed to get a lot of salt for their planet. And so we brought back a bunch of hot dogs. Great, classic Eddie Murphy film that I'm pretty much cut out of. But, right. They're not here for like, oh, our planet is dying. It's like, it is dying. But, like, what they're here is to stave that off. It's like, okay, this is the moment we give this so in 3,000 years, you will help us. But that's all I need. Like, this is the bridge moment. It's not about like, oh, we need to work together. We'll build bridges. You need interstellar travel. Nope, none of that. It's none of that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, they do feel like kind of planetary therapists. Because isn't their whole goal to get us talking to each other?

[Paul Scheer]

Right. To be able to land in these different areas to force communication.

[Amy Nicholson]

Right. Because I think there was a script where they were supposed to get us on the same page so we could all combine our technology and build an interstellar spaceship that we needed to have for when they needed us in the future. But then interstellar came out and they were like, okay, nevermind, we'll take that out.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, that's interesting, because I do feel like this movie does still do the hero's journey, right? Which is like, she figures it out. She's the best. She stops it all. Like, no one's working together. It's basically, China's gonna start a nuclear war. Everyone else will follow suit. And then she's like, wait, wait, wait, I figured it out. Like there's no real. Like there's a little bit of work, but there's no real. Like, maybe. I guess that's a. Kind of breezed by that. Oh, yes. All the linguists around the world working has allowed them to understand more of the language. But at the end of the day, she's prime. She's the one. And that's why I say time and time again, america's the best. Get used to it, people.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, one weird, fun fact, though, about the design of this whole screen is that it means that this movie shares one piece of the same DNA as Drake's video for Hotline Bling. Oh, because. No, I'm serious. Picture the screen. Close your eyes. Picture, like walking through the tunnels. See the square? I pictured Drake's video. Oh, giant rectangles and square. And I'm dancing and blah, blah, blah. And I was a meme for a really long time. They are both inspired by the light artist James Turrell. So they both took James Turrell's ideas of how to use light and shadow and darkness and shapes and pushed them in different directions. One monochrome, one really colored. The only interview I could really find about this was James Turrell saying, while I am truly flattered to learn that Drake fucks with me, I nevertheless wish to make it clear that I was not involved anyway in the making of the Hotline Bling video.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, while you're thinking about Hotline Bling, I'm just thinking, wow, you know, the Addams Family. That's what I keep on seeing. I'm like, oh, that, you know, thing from the Addams Family. He's probably a heptapod, right? Like that hand that runs around.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Why do you think they look so much like hands?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, like, you know, the design of it was really interesting because they are this like kind of squid. Spider, right? It's starfish. Apparently Carlos Juanta is the designer and he was like, it was a bunch of abstract ideas. He calls it an anthropomorphic whale creature with a spider hand at the end of an umbilical cord, which he also admits is a very bizarre way.

[Amy Nicholson]

Avid and Costello.

[Paul Scheer]

It is. And Denis Villeneuve said that what he really liked about Carlos's designs were that they felt like there was a soul within them. They felt real. They didn't just look like cool creatures. And I think that that really shows. We've seen a lot of vagina mouth creatures, Right. Since Cloverfield, we have been inundated with vagina Mouth creatures and.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Teeth on teeth on teeth.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, come on, we don't need all this stuff. And I think that Denis Villeneuve was trying to create something that felt really organic and the movement of it and the way of communicating and thinking was really well thought out. So it wasn't just like, just slapped in there. And it does read like you feel for these characters or you at least feel connected to them.

[Amy Nicholson]

You do. But I'm still thinking about Hotline Bling and realizing I think Hotline Bling maybe should be a theme song for this movie. Cause isn't that what Drake is even singing about? That he knows what it means when you call him on his cell phone. It can only mean one thing. It can only mean one thing. He's interpreting the action of somebody calling someone to assume that it means that they don't need him anymore.

[Paul Scheer]

And yet he knows they are never gonna call him back. But he calls anyway. Hence a full circle. Amy. It all comes back to Drake. Wow, what a great film. And I feel like a movie that oddly isn't spoken about as much as it should be. I don't know, maybe I'm misreading it because it.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't know, it's 61, it's the 10 year anniversary. Maybe it's time for it to start bubbling back up again.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. I think this is a movie that is incredibly relevant. It's incredibly cerebral, it's incredibly successful. And really the only misstep is that somehow Amy Adams avoided being nominated. I was curious to see who she was up against. Do you remember this at all?

[Amy Nicholson]

No. I mean, Emma Stone, I'm guessing.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, Emma Stone for La La Land. She won, but it's an odd crew. All right, you have Meryl Streep for Florence Foster Jenkins. I mean, she's a given, right? We always give a nom to her, but not a memorable role or movie in my memory. Natalie Portman for Jackie, great performance. Ruth Nega for Loving, great movie. And then Isabel Huppert for Elle. She won the Golden Globes. Interesting. That's an interesting crew of people.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, that was a really fun Isabel Huper role. But now that I'm thinking about it, Amy Adams has never won an Oscar. She has been nominated so much that I figured she had because maybe they didn't nominate her because they're like, listen, we have nominated that woman in 2016. They would have nominated her already for like five Oscars. I think she's been nominated for six Oscars now and never won, which is really nuts. I think she's right up there with Glenn Close, almost as, like, actresses with the most nominations without winning. I think she's a couple nominations underneath Glenn Close, which is nuts. Like, she feels like she should have been a lock by now.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, you know what? And it's interesting. Cause maybe she'll just be one of those people like Meryl Streep, who's continually on that. Not chopping block, but just kind of assumed. Maybe we don't look at her as critically as other people. I will say that maybe we're at

[Amy Nicholson]

risk of taking her for granted. But also, she hasn't been working a ton lately. I think she's eased back.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, you know what? I've been watching the Office, and she's on the Office as kind of like the. Like the other Pam in the early seasons. She's like a bag saleswoman, and she's so good in the show, and she looks a little bit like Pam, so it's. She's great. And you watch her like, oh, my God, she's been doing this for such a long time.

[Amy Nicholson]

I know. I love her. I just think she has a real gift for coming across like, the best version of a normal person.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. A hundred percent. I met her a handful of times. She was friends with my. She probably still is with my friend Jack McBrayer. And after they had done Talladega Night, she would come to see me and Jack do improv shows together. She was great. Aww. All right. So, Amy, I feel like we've tipped our hat to Project Hail Mary, which you should definitely go see. Not only because I think it's a fantastic film, but because it's good for cinema to have a big blockbuster movie, get support. Yes. It's on ip, but it's Lord and Miller, a duo who. I think every time I see them make something, I'm like, wow, how do they do this? It's like, this is what I want movies to be. More like, it's got everything. I don't know if I said this to you, but when I was watching Project Hail Mary, I brought my sons the second time I saw it. And my son turned to me in the middle of the movie and said, this is the best movie I've ever seen. Oh, yes. And then my other son said it was the funniest movie I've ever seen. Even though I cried five times, I

[Amy Nicholson]

was like, oh, that's so cute. I mean, I do think Project Hail Mary saw Arrival refreshed on it, because there's a joke that I think is definitely building off of this scene right here where the aliens are tapping.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

What's he doing?

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, come on. When you see Project Hail Mary, anybody out there listening, Report back. I think that's definitely a little nod to arrival. Okay, Paul, well, you know what? We just talked about a peaceful way of saving the world. What if we make a hardcore pivot and talk about a totally Iraqin aggro way to save the world With a lot of boning. A lot of wooden boning.

[Paul Scheer]

Ooh, I love this. What do we got?

[Amy Nicholson]

I think we should do Team America World Police.

[Paul Scheer]

Ooh, I'm excited about this because I have not. I don't think I've seen that movie in such a long time. Oh, I'm very alright. This is great, Amy. Great choice.

[Amy Nicholson]

Excellent. You mean. Fuck yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Fuck yeah. You can find Team America World Police, currently streaming on Paramount or wherever you get your streaming movies. Or also from your local public library where they have services like hoopla and Kanopy, all those great places to go. Anyway, yell out America. Fuck ya, wherever you are right now. And we will see you next week. And remember, check out our substack where we go into even a deeper dive on the arrival. And we have some, some shirts available. That's right. Just go to our teepublic site and get an official unspooled merch. All right, Amy, we will see you next week. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now.

[Greg Laemmle]

Welcome to Inside the Art House, the go to destination for cinephiles and the number one place for art house cinema and filmmaker conversations. Each week, today's most visionary filmmakers pull back the curtain on the art of cinema. Sharing how stories are made and why they matter. Hosted by Greg Laemmle of the legendary Laemmle Theaters, a family that shaped the movie business for over a century. And Raphael Sparge, actor and award winning director. Together they explore the creative process, the struggles and the triumphs behind the camera and the bold ideas shaping film today. From indie daisy documentaries to international art house cinema, Inside the Art House dives deep into a world where passion meets craft and where the love of film lives loud. Inside the Art House conversations with today's most visionary filmmakers. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.

[Glass Cannon Podcast Host]

The war is over and both sides. Lost kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the Darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the Shadow Dark, the Darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time, and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a stranger story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon Podcast as we plunge into the Shadow Dark every Thursday night at 8pm Eastern on YouTube.com theglasscanon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join

[Paul Scheer]

us in the Dark.