Drive

Summary

Unspooled Podcast — “Drive” (July 30, 2026)

Hosts: Paul Scheer & Amy Nicholson
Guest: Nicolas Winding Refn (select segments)
Main Theme: A deep dive into 2011’s “Drive” — its origins, tone, legacy, and key performances.

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Episode Overview

Paul and Amy revisit Nicolas Winding Refn’s singular neo-noir "Drive," dissecting its place in action cinema, the mythos around its production, its impact on movie culture, and the unusual performances at its heart. They discuss how "Drive" fused indie sensibilities with genre thrills, subverted marketing expectations, and left a lasting mark on Hollywood’s action landscape.

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Table of Contents

• Setting the Stage: 2011’s Action Movie Landscape
• “Drive’s” Unlikely Genesis
• Key Cast & Characters
• Marketing vs. Reality: The Great Trailer Controversy
• Style, Tone & Soundtrack
• Performances & Character Analysis
• Iconic Scenes & Memorable Moments
• Refn’s Directorial Approach & Collaborations
• Thematic Threads & Symbolism
• Legacy & Influence
• Notable Quotes & Timestamps
• Conclusion: “Drive’s” Place In Movie History

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Setting the Stage: 2011’s Action Movie Landscape

• Paul & Amy contextualize “Drive” within a shifting action genre scene:
  • New directions in action: “Scott Pilgrim vs. The World,” “Kick-Ass,” “The Other Guys” infused genre-bending and irony.
  • Hollywood simultaneously clung to reboots and nostalgia (e.g., “Predators,” “Clash of the Titans,” “Karate Kid,” “Tron,” “The Expendables”) and explored new archetypes – from all-star ensembles to kick-ass leading ladies ("Salt").
  • “Drive” stands out as a neon-drenched, stylistically unique counterpoint, bridging genre homage and subversion.
  • [03:11] Amy: “Action could be clinging to what worked in the past… or it might start an old dude like The Expendables or Red or an ass kicking actress like Salt with Angelina Jolie.”

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“Drive’s” Unlikely Genesis

• Origin Story:

  • “Drive” was first envisioned as a more traditional action film, a “Fast and Furious” knockoff with Neil Marshall (director) and Hugh Jackman (star).
  • The script drew from James Sallis’s spare novel about a stuntman moonlighting as a getaway driver, upended by love and trouble.
  • Studio project derailed—became an indie film after first director and star exited.

• How Refn and Gosling Connected:

  • Gosling, at the time known for romantic roles (“The Notebook,” “Blue Valentine”), was given unprecedented power: pick the director.
  • He chose Danish director Nicolas Winding Refn, fresh off moody, nearly wordless films like “Valhalla Rising.”
  • Refn, under odd circumstances (psychic advice, emotional upheaval), met Gosling for an awkward dinner and an even stranger car ride—ultimately, inspiration struck listening to REO Speedwagon’s “Can’t Fight This Feeling.”
  • [06:17] Refn: “We’re sitting in a car… I turned it really obnoxiously loud, and then I really start singing... tears are falling down my cheek as Ryan is driving his car, looking just straight ahead. And I get this idea… I know—we’re gonna make a movie about a man who drives around in a car listening to pop music. That’s his emotional relief. And I screamed in his face, and he turns to me and says, ‘I’m in.’”

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Key Cast & Characters

• Ryan Gosling: The silent, unnamed “Driver” — brooding stuntman by day, getaway driver by night, evoking Steve McQueen cool with a near-wordless presence.
• Carey Mulligan: Irene, his reserved, soulful neighbor; the central love interest and single mom.
• Oscar Isaac: Standard Gabriel, Irene’s husband—just out of prison, earnest but implicated in crime.
• Bryan Cranston: Shannon, the hapless, well-meaning mechanic and “father figure” to the Driver.
• Albert Brooks & Ron Perlman: Understated but menacing gangsters, Bernie and Nino.
• Christina Hendricks: Blanche, the intermediary with criminal ties.
  • [09:07] Paul: “Drive was released on September 16, 2011. It cost $13 million. It made an impressive $81.4 million. Sold a lot of silver scorpion bomber jackets.”

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Marketing vs. Reality: The Great Trailer Controversy

• Mismatch between trailer and film tone:
  • The film’s marketing positioned Drive as a mainstream, action-packed car movie, leading to audience backlash when it proved to be a moody, indie noir with long silences and sudden violence.
  • [10:34] Paul: “Not only does that trailer give away every plot point, but it does make it look like a movie that should have Hugh Jackman in it.”
  • Negative CinemaScore (“D”), lawsuits filed (and dismissed) by frustrated viewers who felt misled.
    • [11:58] Amy: “She said the trailer misled audiences to think there would be more driving… that the preview failed to reveal that the film includes many segments of slow-paced interpersonal drama.”

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Style, Tone & Soundtrack

• Visual and sonic style:

  • 80s-inspired neon aesthetic, synth-pop/electro soundtrack, hyper-stylized yet emotionally muted approach.
  • A collision of fairy-tale LA, dreamlike cinematography, with action/violence that’s jarringly real.
  • Strategic use of silence and atmosphere: “You need to sink into the quiet.” (Amy, [15:24])
  • The now-iconic “scorpion jacket” both an indie style emblem and a symbol of character mythology.
  • [26:18] Amy: “Refn specifically [said], I don’t want any shaky-cam… wanted that steady kind of flow. It’s like a fairy tale Los Angeles.”

• Soundtrack—Notable Song Origins:

  • “A Real Hero,” used in the film, originated as a poem about Captain Sully Sullenberger, written by musician’s grandfather; turned into a track by Electric Youth and used by Refn.
  • [75:12] Amy: “That song was written by a…retired philosophy professor, a grandfather...His grandson did turn it into a song…Somehow Refn finds that song…”

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Performances & Character Analysis

• Gosling’s “Look” and Understated Romance
  • Praised for “movie star” gaze—communicating depth, longing, and yearning through near-silence.
  • Works because both Gosling and Mulligan’s characters are listeners—“two quiet people who want to sit together quietly.”
  • Amy: “Ryan Gosling is the number one looker at women. He is the best at it of anybody in the business. […] Like they're the most exciting person alive.” ([16:26])
• Debate on Driver’s Credibility as a Tough Guy
  • Early scenes challenge Gosling’s “hard-edged” credibility; by the end, his transformation feels more convincing.
  • Ambiguity about the “learned violence” vs. “secret sociopath”—some moments push dream logic/theory (elevator scene as psychological hinge).
• Bryan Cranston’s “Shannon”
  • Overly talky, “walking shit show,” and perhaps the only character not quite fitting the tone—relationship with Driver is ambiguous.
• Albert Brooks & Ron Perlman as Villains
  • Against-type, terrifying but small-time, play their violence with subtlety and authenticity.
  • Brooks’ gentle, chilling murder of Cranston is noted as a highlight of acting restraint.
  • [47:06] Brooks: “Don’t worry, don’t worry. That’s it. It’s done. There’s no pain. It’s over. It’s over.”

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Iconic Scenes & Memorable Moments

• Opening getaway sequence: Masterful display of tension and LA geography, weaving in the Clippers game as a critical detail for Driver’s plan.
  • [28:32] Paul: “He is gonna do this job, this opening sequence where he’s doing this job and he’s watching the basketball game…part of the entire plan…such a beautiful, awesome opening sequence.”
• Elevator scene:
  • A slow-motion, near-dreamlike kiss descends instantly into gruesome violence.
  • Heavily analyzed as the film’s emotional and stylistic pivot point—possible moment of psychological break, or ‘movie-within-his-head’ theory.
  • [22:55] Amy: “Here’s the music and the score of it…You can hear the whole emotional landscape just in the music right here.”
• Pawn shop heist:
  • Sloppy, small-time crime, with plans that “seem bad”—underscores characters’ ordinariness amidst stylized violence.
• The “scorpion and the frog” parable:
  • Overtly referenced, setting up the Driver’s tragic inevitability.
  • [35:40] Brooks: “You know the story about the scorpion and the frog…Your friend Nino didn’t make it across the river.”

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Refn’s Directorial Approach & Collaborations

• Organic, improvisational method:

  • Refn’s artful, experimental attitude: “The first thing I ask any actor is, what would they like to do?...for me, it doesn't work like that. You’ve got to get absorbed and dirty.” ([68:26] Paul quoting Refn)
  • Wants to get “actors dirty,” sculpting their impulses into the film.
  • Developed an intense, almost codependent relationship with Gosling—a playful, creative “bromance.”
  • Quip about creative ownership of the elevator scene: [65:10] “Let’s get this settled right now…First God made me, and then he made you…Everything was my idea. Except for the kiss.—No, that was my idea.”

• Discussion of Refn’s later projects:

  • Only three films since “Drive,” all highly polarizing, especially when engaging with female protagonists—Amy: “I think he was stronger making movies about men and maleness.”

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Thematic Threads & Symbolism

• Identity & Performance:
  • Driver as both movie stuntman and real-life would-be action hero; blurs lines between existential void and performance of masculinity.
  • The “rubber mask” and the “scorpion jacket”—both disguise and self-mythologizing; function as commentary on Hollywood archetypes.
• Silence and Connection:
  • Refn’s affection for extended silence; an antidote to dialogue-heavy romances (“Blue Valentine” as contrast).
  • Love exists in glances, not words—subverts Hollywood romance conventions.
• Dream Logic & Ambiguity:
  • Unresolved space between fantasy, genre homage, and gritty reality—does Driver survive? Did aspects play out only in his psyche?
• Violence and Consequence:
  • Brutality is “earned” and impactful; film pulls no punches—unlike the “cartoon” violence of blockbuster action series.
  • “Nothing is that easy.” Real-world consequences in a dream-world setting.

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Legacy & Influence

• Box Office & Cultural Impact:
  • Art-house hit at the multiplex—$81 million gross, outsized style influence (“sold a lot of silver scorpion bomber jackets”).
  • Inspired follow-ups in genre, including “Baby Driver” and other synthwave-drenched cinema.
• Performance Legacies:
  • Expanded audience perception of Gosling, paving way for his more versatile roles.
  • Gave Carey Mulligan a pop-cultural moment—shifted her from critics’ darling ("An Education") to wider stardom.
  • Albert Brooks’ performance widely cited as career-defining against-type turn.
• Ongoing Debates:
  • "Drive" as the blueprint for indie-meets-genre; frequently referenced in conversation about the future of original movies versus formulaic blockbusters.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Gosling and Refn’s origin story:
  • Refn: “I get this idea… I know—we’re gonna make a movie about a man who drives around in a car listening to pop music. Cause that's his emotional relief. And I screamed in his face in his car. And he's just driving, and then he very slowly turns to me and he thinks. And he says, I'm in.” ([06:17])
• On romance through silence:
  • Amy: “Ryan Gosling is the number one looker at women...He just did it to a rock, Spider. I mean, it's unbelievable.” ([16:26])
• On marketing misfire:
  • Paul: “It makes it look like a movie that should have Hugh Jackman in it.” ([10:34])
  • Amy: “She said the trailer misled audiences to think there would be more driving… that the preview failed to reveal that the film includes many segments of slow-paced interpersonal drama.” ([11:58])
• On the elevator scene’s ambiguity:
  • Paul: “Is it all in his head? Was he killed in that elevator, and is the rest of the movie a movie in his head?” ([22:24])
• On Albert Brooks’s villainy:
  • Amy (on Cranston’s death): “He slices Brian Cranston’s wrist, and he just flips his personality and he turns it gentle.” Brooks: “Don’t worry, don’t worry. That’s it. It’s done. There’s no pain. It’s over. It’s over.” ([47:06])
• On endings:
  • Amy: “Leaving behind, like, giving her the money would feel satisfying and generic. Not taking the money is irritating. I don’t know what I would pick out of those.” ([58:58])
• Drive’s artistic influence:
  • Paul: “I think what I also really like about this is when you have a great independent director trying something big, you can tell its effects on the people who came after. I Think you'd be lying to yourself if you said that Edgar Wright wasn't at all inspired by this.” ([75:52])

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Conclusion: “Drive’s” Place In Movie History

• “Drive” endures by virtue of its singular tone—a postmodern fairy tale noir merging indie minimalism with Hollywood myth-making.
• Both Paul and Amy recognize the film’s flaws, logical loopholes, and occasional seams, but agree the stylistic and emotional force more than compensate.
• Amy: “Like it’s romantic more than logical, you know?” ([61:36])
• The episode closes echoing the film’s own conclusion: sometimes you leave the money behind and drive off, blazing your own path—and the movie, like its hero, eschews simple answers for singular, stylish uncertainty.

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Next Up: Preview for next week—retrospective on “Wet Hot American Summer” with guest David Wain.

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For listeners: “Drive” is the indie cult classic that made a new template for the action movie hero—silent, sensitive, and singularly stylish. Its impact still resonates, whether you’re a fan of synthwave, slow-burning romance, or real-deal movie iconography.

Transcript

[Paul Scheer]

The year is 2011.

[Amy Nicholson]

What do you do?

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

I drive,

[Amy Nicholson]

like a limo driver.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Like for movies.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh,

[Amy Nicholson]

you mean all the car chases and stuff?

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Isn't that dangerous?

[Paul Scheer]

The movie drive.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Unspooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed EMS, we have

[Amy Nicholson]

covered the AFI top 100, and now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterboxd top 250 films with the most fans. The IMDb top 250, and the New York Times 1000 essential films.

[Paul Scheer]

And Amy, we have finally made the transition to video. Big announcement, but not the way that you might think. You see, Amy and I decided we want to give people a little bit of a taste of this show. So We've started a 12 minute long series to give you all the prep and that you need to know before you see a movie or after you see a great film. You can go right to YouTube.com getunspooled to check out some of our brand new episodes. So, Amy, it's a new place. Every two weeks, new episodes are coming out and we're already stepping up our game production wise.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. We have a plan for how. Oh, I'm excited for our next plan. Our next plan.

[Paul Scheer]

Our plan's gonna be good.

[Amy Nicholson]

Our plan's gonna be great. I'm really excited about it.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, God.

[Amy Nicholson]

That we're getting into video without just being like, stare at my face as I babble for an hour. I cannot imagine.

[Paul Scheer]

No, we are making this a yout specific series, which I like. I am Paul Scheer. I'm an actor, a writer, director, and I saw the movie Drive on opening day, and I might have even priced out a scorpion jacket around Halloween. I mean, because we all were, right? I mean, come on, it's pretty cool.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for the Los Angeles Times. After Drive came out, my film critic friends arranged a giant dinner at the Great Wall Chinese restaurant on Sherman Way, where the fatal fight takes place. At the end of this, my friends are giant dorks. And I'm pretty sure at least one of them did buy the jacket.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Unschooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, let's get into this movie because I think it has a really interesting backstory and it really sets the tone for, honestly, like, the next 10 years of independent cinema. I mean, these faces in this movie are amazing, right? Every one, you're like, oh, oh, oh. So let's set the stage. The year is 2011, and action movies are branching out into new directions. I mean, in the last year we had an action movie that could be wacky, an action movie that could be comic book y, one that could be ironic. I mean, you had stuff like Scott Pilgrim versus the world and Kick Ass and other guys all coming out at roughly the same time.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, or Action could be clinging to what worked in the past. You know, reboots of Predators, reboots of Clash of the Titans, the Karate Kid, Tron. Or it might start an old dude like the Expendables or Red or an ass kicking actress like Salt with Angelina Jolie.

[Paul Scheer]

But this is different. I mean, this action movie feels unique. It's Nicholas Winding Refn's Drive. It's a brand new mashup of a movie that combines Ryan Gosling's laconic, iconic, unnamed character, who seems like he stepped out of a 70s movie like Steve McQueen's Bullet, which we've done on the show, which we have. And this movie reminds me very much of Bullet, especially with the lack of dialogue. And, you know, he's got this swagger. It's this movie that kind of feels like it's a little bit of an homage to Thief. Right? Cause it's got this kind of romantic neon electro pop look. And you know, the sound feels very like 80s Tangerine Dream meets now.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, it's a really interesting collision of tones. And ironically, Drive was not supposed to be this kind of movie at all. It was supposed to be a standard studio action film, a fast and furious knockoff directed by Neil Marshall, starring Hughen Jackman. And that script was based on this slim short novel by James Salas that is also called Drive. It's about a stunt driver who moonlights as a getaway driver and the hell that breaks loose when he falls in love with his married neighbor. But eventually, Neil Marshall and Hugh Jackman drop out. The film slides off the studio slate altogether, and it becomes an indie movie project.

[Paul Scheer]

Now the producers offer it to Ryan Gosling, who at this time is not thought of as an action star at all. I mean, he's soft, he's sweet, he's the romantic actor of the Notebook and Blue Valentine. But Ryan wants to do something different, and the producers believe in him so much that they let him pick the director.

[Amy Nicholson]

And Ryan surprises them twofold by saying he wants to meet the Danish film director Nicolas Winding Ruffin, who had just made this almost wordless period piece called Valhalla Rising, which has Mads Mikkelsen playing a Viking.

[Paul Scheer]

Now this Is the part I really like. A psychic has told Refn to try Hollywood. Now, you see, he's attempting to make a movie with Harrison Ford where Harrison will die at the end. But Harrison just told him, actually, I don't want to die after all. So now that movie is falling apart. And he just had a second kid, and he's a little emotionally loopy. He's also sick. And he gets this call from Gosling, and he's like, all right, let's have a dinner.

[Amy Nicholson]

The dinner does not go well. Like, they barely talk. Refn is on a lot of medication. Gosling is like. He's not looking at me. He's not asking me anything. We're not talking. This is awkward. I won't talk either. And then at the end of it, as if this bad, like, director actor date wasn't going badly enough because Nicholas Weining Ruffin is not from around here, he has the nerve to ask Ryan Gosling for a ride home, an hour away to Santa Monica, where he is crashing. And that drive also does not go well. It's quiet. It's awkward. And here is Nicholas Voningreffin describing what happens next.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Anyway, we go out of the restaurant, we get into his car, and we're driving along. And you know that when there's, like, a blind date that didn't go well, and you have this kind of, there's gonna be no action. There's gonna be nothing. It's just like, say goodbye and get on with our lives. So we're sitting in a car, and we're driving, and in that awkward silence, and to kill that, Ryan turns on the radio, and it's soft rock. So Arya speedwagons. I can't Fight this Feeling Anymore starts to play. Now, I very much work conceptually, so if I get an idea, that becomes, like, the objective, right? So we're sitting in a car, and you know when you're very stoned and very high and you're feverish and you're kind of just all over the place, you know, you start to kind of nod along a little bit. You start to sing the lyrics, but because you're stoned, your hearing has gone down, I think. So I turned it really obnoxiously loud, and then I really start singing. Singing the song I can't fight this feeling anymore. And so I build myself with a friend and I start crying in the car with Ryan Gosling are falling down my cheek as Ryan is driving his car, looking just straight ahead. And I get this idea. I get this, oh, My God. Oh, my God. And I go, I know we're gonna make a movie about a man who drives around in a car listening to pop music. Cause that's his emotional relief. And I screamed in his face in his car. And he's just driving, and then he very slowly turns to me and he thinks. And he says, I'm in.

[Amy Nicholson]

Basically, Refn's punchy version of it that he's also said is, quote, we were two very heterosexual men who essentially needed to fucking.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I guess that's how drive becomes drive. And look, it's not a movie that will launch the next Fast and Furious franchise, but it does win Refn the best director award in Cannes. Gosling is, of course, the driver. Carey Mulligan is his neighbor and crush, also a single mother. And Oscar Isaac is her husband. Standard. Yes, Standard is his name. He is away in prison at the beginning of this movie, and when he gets out, he is pressured to roc rob a pawn shop or else.

[Amy Nicholson]

Now, to keep Irene, his neighbor, and her son safe, the driver agrees to help. But that crime forces him to cross paths with Albert Brooks and Ron Perlman as gangsters Bernie and Nino. Also, Christina Hendricks as the gangster mole, Blanche, and Bryan Cranston as the garage mechanic Shannon.

[Paul Scheer]

Now Drive was released on September 16, 2011. It cost $13 million. It made an impressive $81.4 million. I mean, it's sold a lot of silver scorpion bomber jackets, Amy. And then this is why I couldn't afford it at the time. I mean, it was a hot ticket. Uh, it also received an Academy Award nomination for best sound editing. So there you go.

[Amy Nicholson]

And it is also. Drumroll 172 on the litter box top 250 films with the most fans.

[Paul Scheer]

I love this. Now, Amy, I want to talk about this movie, but before we talk about the actual film, I want to talk about the expectation of this film. Right. So this movie was supposed to be, like you said, a traditional action film. No one told the people editing the trailer that that had changed because what they release is a traditional action trailer.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

You put this kid behind a wheel,

[Paul Scheer]

there's nothing he can't do. Kid, I want you to meet Mr. Bernie Rose.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

My hands are a little dirty. So am I.

[Amy Nicholson]

My husband is coming home.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Where is he?

[Amy Nicholson]

He's in prison.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

There's some guys that want me to do a job for him, and I'm not gonna do it. What is that you got there? One of those men gave you that? What's the job?

[Paul Scheer]

Not only does that trailer give away every Plot point, but it does make it look like a movie that should have Hugh Jackman in it. And when people went to the theater to see this, they were pissed. That was the big thing I remember about Drive. People were like, this is not the movie that I wanted that. You lied to me. You brought me to an indie.

[Amy Nicholson]

How dare you. Yeah, it had a D CinemaScore.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. People were furious. I just think it's an interesting contextual thing to put on this film because this is a movie that in watching it now, I think it feels a lot more reflective of action movies that we have seen since 2011. I think this sets the tone for. For what we are willing to experience in an action movie. Even though there are a lot of different action movies, this is very unique. And I would say it ages really, really well. I mean, this movie, I remember going, oh, it's a little slow, but I like it. There were things that I really loved about this film, but there were also some things in the pacing that I did not feel at all. This time I was completely just right in on my couch, not distracted one bit.

[Amy Nicholson]

Wait, do you remember that there was a woman in Michigan who filed a class action lawsuit against Drive?

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

She said the trailer misled audiences to think there would be more driving. And this is a quote from the lawsuit that the quote, preview failed to reveal that the film includes many segments of slow paced interpersonal drama.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, did she win that lawsuit?

[Amy Nicholson]

It was dismissed. She filed it again. It was dismissed. She filed it again. It was dismissed a third time. And her lawyer filed it again on her behalf. Dismissed again.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, this is a wild thing. I know that the woman who spilt McDonald's coffee on her lap and had burns has been debunked as actually being a horrific case.

[Amy Nicholson]

It was. That was bad. My dad was a lawyer at the time, and I remember him telling me to drive through. That woman is right.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. I mean, now I will say that this, though, feels like kind of this frivolous lawsuit. Like the movie poster lied to me. It's like, yeah, that's the job. Like, the job is to get your butts in the seats. And honestly, that's the argument I have about a lot of this hand wringing that we're going through in Hollywood right now where people are like, it didn't do what we expected it to do. And I'm like, well, then you're not advertising it the right way. Because movies should open big if you figured out how to get people there. Because people aren't necessarily like long lead reading reviews. I mean, reviews are coming out the day before something else. Like people want to get in that thing. This idea of like word of mouth, it's got to still kind of attract you. So in a way, I'm happy that this angered people. Cuz I imagine that for the 40% it angered, it made 60% of people psyched that they saw it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, those 60% of people didn't shift the cinema score, but.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, but 81 million is no joke.

[Amy Nicholson]

It is no joke. It is no joke. And I remember that feeling of the word going around that Drive was the movie you had to see that summer. Which is why I think I really get frustrated that right now the theatrical business is like, here's a cool thing, it plays for one weekend. Ta da. Now it's on streaming because it doesn't give you any time to know that this thing is actually rad. You need your friend who just saw it last weekend because their friend told them to go see it and, oh, I got to see this or I'm going to be out of the conversation. You need that kind of pressure.

[Paul Scheer]

It's the same conversation we had about Superbad, where it could move up the charts. That's what you want. I think this summer we're seeing a little bit of that movement with the Invite, but it's also in a very small screen like ratio. Right. So, yes, those screenings are packed, but it will never compete with like, you know, the 3,000 screens that something else is on.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, but in a way it doesn't have to. If it's made for like a smaller amount of money and it just finds the audience that it's supposed to find. And the Invite is so good. But I will say, comparing this to the Invite, a movie that is all about talking and funniness and relationships. I remember watching Drive for the first time and being so deeply annoyed by the quietness, the dialogue. Like, being so annoyed that this was like a love story between Carey Mulligan and Ryan Gosling. Where this scene is the one that I kept quoting where I was like, I just hate their relationship. You want a glass of water?

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Okay, Thanks.

[Amy Nicholson]

So you just moved to la?

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

No, I've been here for a while.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're just new here.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Mm.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, that was like, about the deepest conversation I had. I have softened on Drive. Rewatching it this time I was like, you need to sink into the quiet. You need to stop rating this against what you think love is. Because what I think love is, I do like a lot of Chit chat and talking in my relationship, I'm not attracted to stories about quiet, simmering love usually, but I was like, I'm gonna get into this tempo here. I'm gonna really try.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, you kind of articulating something that I really wrestled with throughout the movie, and that is casting, because I think for the love story to work, Gosling is ideal for this movie.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, perfect for it.

[Paul Scheer]

He can make this relationship with Carey Mulligan pop so much, and it is done in the Steve McQueen style with very limited words. But the looks that he is able to give, you can see everything in him.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yes. This is my thing. Ryan Gosling is the number one looker at women. He is the best at it of anybody in the business. And if you want to be a successful male movie star, learn what he's doing about how to look at a person like they're the most exciting person alive. He just did it to a rock, Spider. I mean, it's unbelievable.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, he really can contain so much in those eyes. And I think that's why the romance really works in this film, because I think if it was to get too wordy, it might actually fall apart. I don't know how much I know Carey Mulligan and, you know, the Driver, but I know that they are connected on a deeper level than like, oh, what's your favorite movie? Oh, you like Thai food, right? Like, it doesn't. It's. It's deeper, it's more meaningful. And in a way, it's better served for the movie that we. We don't know them. It's. They're kind of representing bigger ideas just to a certain extent. Just like the traditional, like, boy falls in love with girl at first sight. Like, that's really what we're getting here.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And like, Ryan was saying he wanted to do it this way in particular because it was so different from Blue Valentine, the movie he had just done before.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, which was all talking, all courtship based on talking, which was really cute when it was here. Listen to this. This is him with Michelle Williams.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Girls like you. Girls that look like you don't go to study. Medic.

[Amy Nicholson]

What do I look like?

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Feels like you are supermodels. You got any, like, talents?

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, hidden talents? Uh, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Adams, Jackson, Van Buren and Harrison Tyler, Punk and Taylor. That's all the presents. I love that scene, but I also remember coming out of it with my friend who was just going through a divorce, and she was so angry at the scene where he's Just yelling and yelling and yelling and pounding on the bathroom door like, open the door, open the door. And so Blue Valentine has become the Ryan Gosling yelling, open the door until you want to scream movie in my head. And I forgot how winning it could be. But being in that mindset, I can see why he liked playing a guy who's in love quietly. And I realized, I think why I allowed it to work this time on me is that Carey Mulligan is not a me type. She is not a talker either. Or at least in this movie, she's a listener too. And I think if she was a chatty person paired with a quiet person, I'd be so annoyed if she was filling up the silence. But I think she likes being as quiet as he does. And it's almost like, okay, I believe that this quiet person and this quiet person want to sit together quietly.

[Paul Scheer]

And I buy this relationship. It also made me miss Carey Mulligan. I'm like, what has she been up to? I like her so much.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, she was in a great movie last year.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Oh, really?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. It was called. Oh, I got it. The Ballad of Wallace Island. You gotta go see it if you haven't seen it.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Okay.

[Paul Scheer]

Ooh, yes, I heard about that.

[Amy Nicholson]

The Ballad of Wallace island, everybody. It will be one of your favorite likable movies.

[Paul Scheer]

But now, to give the converse of that, I was like, I don't know if he is the driver. That was the thing I was really wrestling with, especially in the first half. I'm gonna talk about where it changes. But, you know, he is Ryan Gosling, movie star, who is in this role essentially being the ugly face of a movie star, right? It's like that's the role of the stunt driver. Not that he has to be the ugly face, but he looks like a movie star.

[Amy Nicholson]

He puts on a rubber face, right?

[Paul Scheer]

He puts on a rubber face, and that rubber face comes back, and it's so wonderful. I also don't understand why it needs to be on, but we can talk about that.

[Amy Nicholson]

The movies started thinking, he's even big. I was like, is he making fun of Vin Diesel? Like he's the stunt driver for Vin Diesel, because who else would that rubber face be supposed to be?

[Paul Scheer]

I thought we saw that actor in the car right before that scene starts where he does the car flip. It's like they just kind of quick glimpse of the quote unquote, like, famous actor. But all that to be said, that was the thing I was really wrestling with. And there's a moment where you Know, Oscar Isaac has come back. Ryan Gosling is upset and he goes out to eat some apple pie and ice cream and he's at this diner and a former person that he drove for approaches him and basically is like, hey, dude, come on, man, we're gonna, we'll do it again. Let's do it again. And he just kind of looks at him stone faced and is like, you know, get out of here before I knock your teeth out. And you know, basically like, before you just kick your ass. And in that moment I'm like, I don't know if I buy this guy as this guy I don't like. He doesn't seem like he has lived that kind of tough life. Like, I bought more that he was a guy who could drive fast, like baby driver or something like that. Like, he's a guy. Like, he is not the guy with the gun. He is not the guy who's beating the shit out of people. Um, and then when it crosses over into that area, I'm like, I don't know if I buy it, but at the. By the end I'm like, okay, yeah, I think, I think I do. I think I do. I'm not sure.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, there's a weird contradiction what the movie, I think, thinks it's doing and what it feels like it's doing badly. Because whenever I hear Nicholas Winding Refn talk about it or like Ryan Gosling, they describe the character of the driver as somebody who isn't an action hero. He's just seen a lot of movies and he's confusing his life for a movie. And now he's like pushed into this way where he's going to fight. But I'm like, oh, I don't. I never get that watching it. I think of him as a guy who just seems like he really knows how to fight. He starts off killing a guy with a shower rod. So I don't buy him learning to fight.

[Paul Scheer]

He's so smart about knowing that he's being watched that he pushes up the mattress, he runs in. Like, he's tactically really smart.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. He doesn't feel like he doesn't know what he's doing. He feels like he very much knows. And then you put that on how young he is and you're like, really?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, this is why there's a part of me that I was wrestling with this the other day. I was like, is it all in his head? Was he killed in that elevator? And is the rest of the movie a movie in his head?

[Amy Nicholson]

Because Driver Truther.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, because it's such a specific scene. The elevator sequence, I think, is very often discussed. It's one of the, I think, the highlights of this film. We talk about like the memeable moments or we used to. And that is what you would remember from this film.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yes. Here, just to set the mood as we're talking about it, here's the music and the score of it. It's when he goes from realizing a guy's in the elevator and wants to hurt them, to kissing her in what almost feels like a slow motion dream, to then pivoting and killing this guy. And you can hear the whole emotional landscape just in the music right here.

[Paul Scheer]

And I guess in that moment in the elevator when the movie takes that turn where you go into that kiss, you know, time kind of slows down. There's a part of me where that's where the movie takes off on this other level and. And it becomes this, you know, cat and mouse film, this revenge movie, which I love. And I'm there for, you know, and then wrestling with it. Then I'm like, well, if it's a dream, then he did go into the strip club with the hammer. And then I'm like, well, then I have to also just acknowledge that probably the most active fight scene is not a dream, the one in the hotel room. And then I'll go one step further from that and say the way he kind of throws Christina Hendricks down on the bed and. And threatens her makes me go, oh, he's been here before. So I dilute it. But I see that element that they're chasing. Like there is a movie, like the movie becomes more action film coded in the action scenes. And I could see maybe this is the way he's playing it out in his head. He's getting that kind of confidence of a Liam Neeson of like an action star. I buy that. But then I'm questioning to your point, well, what's his lived in experience? Is he just a kid who didn't know anything, who then became a driver and has always had these violent fantasies? Is he a sociopath? I don't know the movie, you know, there's not much to really there to kind of even unpack.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's true. And I mean, here's where you start thinking about like the age gap between a Hugh Jackman and a Ryan Gosling and kind of the lived in weariness that you feel like. I remember the first time I saw that elevator scene, which I think is beautiful and it is romantic. I was surprised that it wasn't just a pop out fantasy. Right. Then like his last chance of imagining what their innocent relationship could have been. And I'm always surprised when he pulls out and he did kiss her. Like, oh, it feels like a hallucination almost. But you think he died. You think maybe like, what if he got straight up whacked in the side of the head?

[Paul Scheer]

Right. He didn't catch it and then. But it doesn't make sense because what we know about the character before that he does a lot. And I think what maybe even gets me to go down that path is the movie does have a dreamy feel. It is like living in reflections and silence. And you know, there are these things, these distinctive things from a cinematography perspective that make the movie feel hyper realistic or not hyper realistic, but like ethereal and dreamlike.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Like Ruffin said specifically, I don't want any handycam. I don't want any shaky cam, which in this mid period of the 2000s, everything was handy cam and shaky cam. But he wanted to feel like that steady kind of flow. Right. And I. Yeah, it's like a. It's like a fairy tale Los Angeles where he's going to corners that don't show up on film, but showing kind of the life there. So it's like it's. Every shot is recognizably la, but it doesn't feel like standard la. Right.

[Paul Scheer]

It's not that far.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, he's not shooting that far from me. Like I'm in K town. He's shooting in MacArthur Park. So it's like I love shooting MacArthur Park. Like it's a beautiful place, which it doesn't get a chance to be often.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, there's something also about Ryan Gosling in this that he feels like the Batman of the city. Right. There are these moments where he's like looking out windows and, and kind of overseeing the city. He knows the city so well. And I have to say, Amy, I have to love this movie because of how it opens. Ryan Gosling, a Clippers fan, listening to the Clippers Clippers win at Lob City era. And then he throws on that Clippers hat, that older school Clippers hat. And I'm like, well, this is a movie I am going to love right out of the gate. But I love how nothing is wasted in this film. Like, you know, he is gonna do this job, this opening sequence where he's doing this job and he's watching the basketball game and it at first feels like, oh, this is just background. Like, oh, this is so commonplace for him. And then you start to realize, oh, this has been part of the entire plan the entire night to kind of park in this big parking garage right when the game gets out. He knows it. It's such a beautiful, awesome opening sequence. That is. I love it. And for that woman who sued the movie for not enough car driving, when there is, it's phenomenal. I mean, it's not shot like an indie at all. I mean, this movie has some fantastic chases in it. 4, 3, 2, 1. The Los Angeles Clippers win the ball.

[Amy Nicholson]

And you know what? I'm really glad for you that they immortalized a time when Clippers won games. Like now you can say we've at least won one. It's in the movie Drive.

[Paul Scheer]

You know the interesting thing, Amy, is, and you probably don't know this because a casual fan, Clippers have the longest winning record in all of professional sports, only beaten by the Yankees. 15 years of winning seasons. Yes. Maybe not a trophy, but for a fan, that's an appealing thing. So, yes, this movie was made in 2011, so that was probably roughly around the start of their 15 year streak. So I'm glad that you're celebrating that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I wonder how long they're going to keep edging you guys.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, you know, I mean, I did

[Amy Nicholson]

love Lob City era. I've always thought Blake Griffin. I'm surprised Blake Griffin isn't in a million movies.

[Paul Scheer]

I know Blake is great. He just produced a great football documentary that is, I think it's called we are Osarios. It's a Mexican football. It's great. Not soccer football.

[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

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[Amy Nicholson]

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[Amy Nicholson]

unspooled. No, but what you see, I think in this first opening car chase is exactly who I would want the driver to be.

[Paul Scheer]

Exactly.

[Amy Nicholson]

He knows what's up, he's listening. He's aware of what the cops are saying. He's prepared for everything. I mean, he just sounds like from his first opening monologue on top of it, knowledgeable, efficient. His own code. You know, I do love it when it's like a crooked guy. But he has a code that he does abide by. I mean, let's listen.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

There's 100,000 streets in this city. You don't need to know the route. You give me a time and a place, I give you a five minute window. Anything happens in that five minutes and I'm yours. No matter what. Anything happens a minute either side of that and you're on your own. Do you understand?

[Amy Nicholson]

I also gotta love that he's like chosen the most banal car because I also once drove a Chevy Impala inherited from my grandfather here in Los Angeles. A giant boat of a car that I don't miss parallel parking. But it was nice just to cruise around. It was beige. Oh, you'd never see me coming. It was wonderful. But I think that's smart. You're cruising by all these like really cool old looking cars in the garage. Being like, which badass mobile is it going to be? None of them. None of them. He's tactical. He's willing to give up a cool point in order to be anonymous. Which is why I do struggle with the scorpion jacket. Because if he's a guy who knows to disappear in a Chevy Impala, why is he wearing the world's most recognizable jacket? And then being a mad when a guy recognizes him at a diner.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I guess the jacket in the diner is an odd choice, but I also feel like he's not wearing that. Like, was he wearing that jacket in the opening scene? He must have been.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, I mean, you just feel

[Amy Nicholson]

like the aesthetic's kind of crashing against the, the logic sometimes.

[Paul Scheer]

Right? No, he is definitely wearing a uniform. Like, I think that's like when you think of this character, you think of that jacket, that satin jacket. Which seems to me if we go back to. Nope, what I would buy is that is the logo of a famous film.

[Amy Nicholson]

I could see that.

[Paul Scheer]

So that's what I, that's what I kind of connected to. So in his mind, it's not like, oh, I am a scorpion. Even though the movie is very on the head with the scorpion.

[Amy Nicholson]

I was thinking about this because of the Scorpion King sweatshirt that they're wearing in notes.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, 100%. Cause it's like, he works in movies, and so he would get the swag from the films. Now also does this movie then double dip and say, do you know the story of the scorpion and the frog? And it's like, well, okay, hello.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

You know the story about the scorpion and the frog. Your friend Nino didn't make it across the river.

[Amy Nicholson]

Why do I feel like scorpion and frog is, like, the one thing we hear more than any other? A steps fable. Right now? I feel like I hear a scorpion and frog thing every week. Are we being like, scorpion and frog pilled? Like, what's going on? Or is it just the world as a. In a scorpion moment?

[Paul Scheer]

When I grew up, it was always tortoise and the hare. And I think scorpion and frog is much more current for the world that we're in, which is like, it's my nature, right? Like, that's the joke, right? It's my nature. And I think, you know, Ryan Gosling is not dumb. He knows what he's doing at the end of the movie. He knows that Albert Brooks, which we'll get into in a moment, is not gonna change his nature. And I think that the movie really does it well and seeds it so well, so subtly in the beginning, when Gosling is watching TV with the young boy, and the boy's like, oh, it's a shark. It's a bad guy. And he's like, how do you know it's a bad guy? And the kid's like, well, all sharks are bad guys. And, like, there's no. There's no. Yeah, there's no if, ands, or buts. Sharks are bad, which I love.

[Amy Nicholson]

Dolphins are bad, kid. Dolphins are bad.

[Paul Scheer]

All right, I get it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Kid needs to learn the way of the world. Sharks are fine. Dolphins are bad.

[Paul Scheer]

But to that end, I guess what I love about the movie is that subtlety. It's there. Like, these people are bad. They're not gonna change. They're always going to be bad. And I don't know if the kid is letting you know Gosling's character become hip to that, because immediately we meet Bryan Cranston. We know Bryan Cranston's a shitty boss. I mean, he's like, yeah, I got you $500 extra, but we're gonna split that. And when you know that they're splitting $500 to do a car flip where his life is in jeopardy. Like, oh, this guy is a trash human. I would also say, and I know this, I love Bryan Cranston. I think he's phenomenal. The director cast Cranston and really let Cranston create a lot of his dialogue. And I will say, I feel it a little bit. It. It feels like a little too talky. Like, you know, he's like, there's no. You know, immediately who he is. Like, there's no. Oh, maybe he's not. You know, I guess the biggest moment where he kind of makes a save is where he. He lies to Albert Brooks at the end. But he. I feel like the amount of talking that he does do in the. And. And. And the way that he. He speaks in this film does feel a little incongruous at points to it. I'm like, okay.

[Amy Nicholson]

Or is the movie being like, the more you talk, the less you know, or the more you talk, the less you can be trusted? Or. Yeah, like, I mean, for me, the Bryan Kernstan character wrestles with my fact that I want Ryan Gosling to have somebody he can trust. And it just keeps breaking my heart every scene that you can't trust him, that he keeps acting like he might be possibly caring about him a little bit. I took care of you. Like, you know, this is a movie where everybody just keeps saying over and over again, how did you meet? How did you meet? It's like small talk, the movie. How did you guys meet? What's going on? And, you know that he has to walk around with a limp. That is the mark of how badly he has fucked up in the past, that he's, like, a person who cannot escape the fact that, you know, he can't be trusted to, like, follow through on his end of the bargain because he's been, like, hobbled for. For revenge.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's why I have trouble with the Gosling character in his relationship, because Gosling, to your point, has a code. He knows what he needs to do as a driver, and he's working with this guy who, if he's got this code and he knows everything that we know about Gosling from the film we see so clearly, right? Like, he is on top of it before it happens, but in that relationship, he's not. And he doesn't need a father figure necessarily. I don't think he's looking to him as a father figure. And that's where the movie I have. Where I feel like it gets a little muddy. It wants a few different things here. Because there's no reason why Ryan Gosling has to be with this shitty guy. And Ryan Gosling's so aware of Albert Brooks being a shitty guy, and he wears it on his sleeve, he won't shake his hand. Right. And there's an element there that goes. But, so what is Cranston giving you? And I wonder if maybe some of that improvisation showed his character a little bit more. Right. Because it just. He feels like a shit show. He feels like a walking shit show. I wouldn't trust that guy. I wouldn't want to work with that guy. And meanwhile, Gosling keeps on putting more and more eggs in his basket. Not only is he working with him, he's trusting him about the information, but even before all this goes down, he was going to race a car for him, which he knew he would be, you know, I would assume, be taken advantage of. Right. A guy who's very good at understanding how not to be taken advantage of is willingly being taken advantage of.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's true. If he's going to split 500 bucks with him, how much of the winnings is he going to take? He's going to, you know, like Elvis and the Colonel, him for sure.

[Paul Scheer]

And it doesn't. It doesn't wreck my movie, but it's like. But I think this is where the movie gets a little wishy washy. Or maybe it's two scripts fighting each other a little bit like the old school action movie with Hugh Jackman and this kind of neo noir quiet fable that we're seeing.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, there are these little moments in here where the movie seems like it's becoming the film about, it's so hard to find a job these days. Or it's so hard to find good work these days where even Albert Brooks is annoyed because his underling has now stolen from the east coast mob, which means he's in trouble. And like, who you put your trust in in this, like, workplace relationship. There's a bit of driver where he's like a gig worker, right?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I wish there was a little more. I wish there was a little bit more Hollywood in it. If this movie is about him, like, believing he's the star of a movie, I would love to see just a little bit more of him at work. But then maybe it's boring, maybe it's repetitive, maybe you can't think of a good way to do.

[Paul Scheer]

Allows you to go like, he seems to be a mechanic for the most part. Right. So then I'm also like, well, what kind of movie is he even working on. Is it really low budget? Like, you know, I don't even think he's in, like, Hollywood Hollywood. Which then would make me go, well, that jacket couldn't be a crew jacket, because probably the movies he's working on doesn't even have rap gifts, which is where my mind is going. But. But to this, you know, end, I think we kind of have to get rid of all the logic and just enjoy the archetypes. I may not understand why that archetype trusts him, but in the world of what this movie is, that's often the relationship. You're backstabbed by the person that you trust, your partner. You know, that that is a relationship in serials and in action films. Like, we've. We've seen that move a million times.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, like, I remember being really taken out by the logic of the city geography the first time I saw it, where I was like, why does he live in MacArthur park, but he works in the Valley? And it was really bothering me because I was just like, you would never work all the way in Reseda if you live in MacArthur Park. And if you're just gonna get some tiny apartment, you'd get a tiny apartment there.

[Paul Scheer]

Imagine her bringing that car all the way to Reseda. My God.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

But in this watch. Yeah. When her car's broken, she takes it all the way to Reseda to save some money. That is like a huge tow bill. And then I found myself out logicing my outlogic again and being like, but he is undercover. He doesn't want anybody to know where he is. He doesn't know anybody to know where to find him. He's obviously moving around all the time. Like, the first thing we see him in when he's doing that five minutes call, he says, you'll never reach me here again. Because he's moving.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

I can't decide if I'm making excuses or embracing.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I think that this is part of the dream, right? And maybe this goes to the larger point of what I was wrestling with. I think this whole movie has not dreamologic, but it feels hazy like that. Like the minute you start to dig in to all the different things, you know, even to the point of, like, why would that mask still be in that room, you know, many days later? You know, like, he's just going in, like, you know, like, I think we have to then put some of that on the side and be like, we're just taking the tone. And it works. Now, I will say where the tone really hits home. For me is in the casting of these bad guys. Ron Perlman and Albert Brooks, I think, absolutely destroy in this film as very violent, very low status guys. Right. They are the right level. Like, they own these restaurants. They have their business. They can get messed up in things. But. But they are not. They're not like the big I own the city, you know, it's like. It's not that. It's. It is, I don't know, more relatable, more smaller, so much more interesting and the way that they play it. And of course, I think part of that is coming off of Albert Brooks playing against type, which. So then that also helps me balance Ryan Gosling playing against type. But Albert Brooks, I think, is phenomenal and so wonderfully scary in this film.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, part of why they cast Albert Brooks in this movie is because they remembered that even though he is like the lovable, cuddly, you know, intelligent, cerebral comedian, that he's capable of having gigantic screaming meltdowns like when he did that movie Lost in America. And if you haven't seen Lost in America, tiny setup. He and his wife decided to retire, go around the country in an rv. She has lost all their money and he is losing his mind.

[Paul Scheer]

I don't think you should eat right now.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Why? Because with a little bit of money

[Paul Scheer]

we have left, not wasted with the little knick knacks here at the dam.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, you know, if that's gonna be your attitude, why don't you just give me my half the money and let me eat whatever I want and you do whatever you want with your half the money? I think that's the fair thing.

[Paul Scheer]

The fair thing? The fair thing. I can't believe it.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's it.

[Paul Scheer]

I have been too controlled. What do you mean? You took our nest egg and you broke it all over the Desert inn.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

I didn't have lunch.

[Paul Scheer]

Now you filled up the casino with yolk. The fair thing. I was sleeping.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Get it out.

[Patrick Picklebottom Promo Voice]

Fine.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, stop it. Don't treat me like I'm an insane patient.

[Amy Nicholson]

Please, just go back inside. You can yell at me. I don't want you to yell out here, okay?

[Glass Cannon Podcast Promo Voice]

Out here.

[Amy Nicholson]

Out where?

[Paul Scheer]

We live here. Get used to the cement, honey. This is our house forever. This is it. We found ourselves. Boy, did we find ourselves in the middle of nowhere with nothing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, like, Refn was like, you are so scary in that scene. That. That's kind of the energy I wanted you to bring. And I like.

[Paul Scheer]

But yet he's not yelly.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, he's just. I mean, he has a temper, and I think Brook says that really well. I remember that he was really the focal point of all, like, possible awards consideration after this. I remember that it was just so neat to see him play against type like this. I mean, gosh, the scene that I love here is just when he slices Brian Cranston's wrist, and he just flips his personality and he turns it gentle.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Don't worry, don't worry. That's it. It's done. There's no pain. It's over. It's over.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, that's a delicacy. And Albert Brooks was giving, I think, beautiful interviews around this time about, like, the line between comedy and anger and rage and emotion, and that to be a comic, you get to access all of these feelings inside your own art, you know? And this is just like, changing the dials around a little bit and letting the anger that's always been lower come out louder.

[Paul Scheer]

I totally agree. Because he doesn't play this character as mustache twirly. And when he kills Ron Perlman's henchman, you know, this act of just unadulterated violence. And, you know, in that scene where he kills Cranston, he's got to. But you understand why he's got to kill Cranston. You believe that he did want to go into this stock car racing, right? There's something about him that is likable, that is sweet, and he's. And without having that much backstory, reformed or wanting to go reform. But that violence is there, and that's a violence. I buy the way that he. It's a brutal killing of that guy.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm 59 years old, Bernie. They still pinch my cheek like I'm some fucking kid

[Amy Nicholson]

fam.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

The money always flows up, Izzy, you know that. That's why this driver's gotta go, Bernie. He's gotta go. And your pal Shannon, I mean, these are the only two guys that can

[Paul Scheer]

tie me to this Rob. And I love what he says. Like, now, you know, you have to clean up my mess. And that's paired against Ron Perlman, who. I get his pathos. You know, he's an intimidating guy. And when he talks about that thing about being 59 and they. They pinch his cheeks, I'm like, wow. I see him as small, and that's a really cool choice for an intimidating guy. And the way that they kind of play off each other, you don't want two guys screaming. But that fight is a wonderful fight. I mean, I'm like, oh, I'm just riveted by these two performances of just really going head to head. And you buy the realism of it. It doesn't feel. You know, these guys are put in a position they don't want to be in, and they're fucked, and they're mad. And you get why these people have to die. Like, I love that that scene opens up with Albert Brooks going, like, you should have listened to me. Take the money and fucking let the kid live. Like, that was his. You know, that was his pov. But they can't. It's not that easy. And I think that that's something that I love about this movie is it's not that easy. Nothing is that easy. And, you know, and you make a mess. As. As someone once told me, somebody wearing an ankle bracelet, famous actor said to me, you step in shit and it stinks. And that's what this movie is, right? It's like you have to. You have to wrestle in the real world. And so as much as the movie feels, like, ethereal, it has these really real world consequences. And the violence is brutal.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's why I really appreciate that it does so much of its shooting on location here that it feels so real. It doesn't feel like a city pretending to be a different city. It feels like it finds ways of making. Like, the grocery store they go to, real grocery store. I could drive by it in five minutes if I want to. And I love that when it happens in films where you believe that the real world looks like this type of a real world and that they find these little pockets in A LA and a lot of this is Gosling. Like, Gosling, when he first moved here, I think he used to live downtown at, like, 4th and Main. So he knew these little nooks. And he and Refen had this, like, really intense, like, best bro dynamic going on where they would just, like, listen to music at night and drive around and find new locations that they thought were really scenic. Like, it's Gosling that drove Refn up the L A River until they found that little park. I love that which exists, and it's real. And I think there's a beautiful visual metaphor there about how in Los Angeles, the city known for its concrete, in his world, where he is just driving on pavement all the time and living a harder life, there is surprising bits of beauty in nature. If you're just looking for it, you can find surprising moments of life in a city that is just thought of as being so. So car heavy, so isolating.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And I feel like that little area is Also the kind of the sweet spot that we hide, you know, we're in a city of concrete, and it's dirty and it's gross. And these are the. These two people, Ryan Gosling and Carey Mulligan spend their time fending off how many things right you get. Carey Mulligan, you know, works in this restaurant. It's not a high class. The Denny's, right? Whatever she's putting up with, whatever she's got to hold together, you know, her husband did something. We don't know what. But we also know he's kind of a fucking liar, too. And to me, I would say this is where the movie kind of works flawlessly, is because Oscar Isaac can present as a guy that you question, like, oh, is he reformed? Is he not reformed? And you catch him in that moment and you're seeing him. Like, I feel like we're constantly kind of back and forth about him. Like, is he fully lying to Gosling? Is he not lying to Gosling? Like, we don't know. We're never really left. But I don't think he's a good guy. And I think that's part of the reason why Carey Mulligan is also conflicted that he's back. But anyway, these two people live in these worlds where they are constantly protecting themselves in this moment where they get to be in this Eden, right? In this city, and that Eden is themselves. And I think that that's what this movie does really well. It just kind of finds those little moments, those ways, to kind of have a real, true connection.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I love it that when her husband comes home, they are expecting that he's gonna be like, the bad force who on his own is gonna make it all worse, that he's gonna be like this abusive, violent, swaggering guy, and he's gonna have to fight him in order to get the girl or something like that. You're expecting the trouble to come specifically from him and his personality, that when he shows up, it's Oscar Isaac, who's two years away from making, you know, his first, like, real breakout movie from doing Llewyn Davis with the Coen Brothers, I think, just out of, like, Juilliard or something. You're turning this character into somebody who. I think I believe him when he says he's, like, genuinely striving to try to turn his life around.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

You know, we're here celebrating, but it's. It's a shameful thing, what I did, and I have a lot of making up to do to everyone. But second chances are Rare, Right. And that's worth celebrating. Right? So I want to make a toast to that lady right there. Thanks for staying. I love you, Rene. Salud.

[Amy Nicholson]

And also then a couple scenes after that when you get, you know, an awkward dinner date where Ryan Gosling is like over there listening to them having like a dinner party with this couple to hear how they met. I think this is maybe the only story that I could hear that I would believe and be like, okay, now I understand why these people are together.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

You wanna hear how mommy and me met?

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Okay. We were at a party and she was 19 years old.

[Amy Nicholson]

17.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

You weren't 17.

[Amy Nicholson]

I was.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Wow. So it was illegal.

Yeah.

All right. So I illegally walked over to a 17 year old girl. I walk up and I say, hello, miss, what is your name? And she didn't say anything. And then I said, well, my name is Standard Gabriel. And what did you say?

[Amy Nicholson]

I said, where's the deluxe version? She meets him at 17. He's a handsome guy, right? Seems a little interesting from the math. She gets pregnant, like immediately.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Immediately.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, yeah. And then what do you do? You know, he seems like he cares enough to try to be like, let's make it work, baby. And then he does whatever crime he does that puts him in prison, and you're stuck. You have a baby, you're 18, and a mom, and what are you going to do?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, the way that she says, that's her, that's the father of her son, not, that's my husband. Right. That tells you everything that you need to know. And I feel like she is trying to. She's doing right. Like she's honest. You know, they're about to go on that date, she gets that phone call and she tells him in the car ride, you know, he's coming out. Like, she's not trying to. She's not trying to hide anything. She's very open. From the moment one, she's the only person that is completely honest with him. Now, what did you think at the end? Because when he calls her and he's like, I want to talk to you, I'm not going to be able to come back. There's a part of me that feels like this is a movie where the final beat is, yeah, Gosling goes off, he's bleeding. Is he dead? Is he alive? I don't know. But then she opens up her door and she finds a bag full of money, right? Or there's like a delivery and it's full of money. But instead of that, when she walks out of her apartment door to, like, look at his apartment door. There's no bag of money. And then we cut to Albert Brooks on the ground with the bag of money. And I was like, huh, huh. So is that saying to us, here's a guy who is morally right, never wanted the money, never going to misuse the money. He just wanted to get out of this, and that makes him a hero. I mean, as the song that plays tells us. Or is it that he knows that if she gets the money, she would also be targeted. Although my question how? Because now everyone is kind of dead that was involved in this, so there would be no link back to her so she could have that money. I just don't understand that choice.

[Amy Nicholson]

The money will just be stolen by somebody who walks by in the parking lot, and they'll just assume she has it. Like, how would they.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. And the money hasn't gone missing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Then they're gonna still be mad and

[Paul Scheer]

the money hasn't gone missing. So, yeah. Right. There's no. There's a lot of questions there about, like, what that plan was. And I feel like there's a part of me that felt like, oh, he didn't take care of her at the end. I love what he said.

[Amy Nicholson]

She doesn't know what happened to him. She's just.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I also.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Leaving behind, like, giving her the money would feel satisfying and generic.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Not taking the money is irritating. I don't know what I would pick out of those.

[Glass Cannon Podcast Promo Voice]

The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadowdark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time, and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8pm Eastern on YouTube.com theglasscann canon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join

[Paul Scheer]

us in the dark. Did you ever wonder what it's like

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

to live alone, hidden in the woods,

[Paul Scheer]

not speaking to a single soul for 30 years? Or wander the desert, uncover a hidden well, and dive to the bottom of the deepest water hole for 2,000 miles. The snap Judgment podcast takes you there with amazing stories told by the people who live them. Snap Judgment. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I think that this movie is trying very hard to not give you a Hollywood ending. Right. And it's hard to look back on this movie because I do believe that we have gone so far into this type of moviemaking, right. This anti hero, this, you know, like, you know, all this sort of stuff. So now it's like, oh, this is. This is now more. This is less subversive than it was. But this does seem like a deconstruction of what we would normally see. She would get the money. He goes off into the distance. It kind of feels at the end of true romance, you know, but it's different. I think this makes it. This movie feels real. But yeah, I don't know if. I don't know, I'm just like, you know, it's like again, doesn't dissuade me from enjoying the film, but I think it's hard for me to remember. Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like it's romantic more than logical, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because. And I think you have to have that sort of in here because if you did this movie without the style and without the romance, it would be the most boring movie ever, Right?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Or if Gosling himself was a different kind of tough guy. If he was just a generically tough guy, if he played it straight, this plot would be so dull. Right?

[Paul Scheer]

100%. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

There's something about the surprise of his sensitivity in his romance that I think gives this movie enough momentum to carry you through all the way.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. Because. And this is where I go back to. Is he miscast? I don't think he is. But if you're wrestling with that, the first part of the movie doesn't work because to your point, he's gotta look at her in that way. And we have to buy that everything in this guy's life and if he is violent, if he's doing whatever he is doing is fueled by that. And you put a more hard edged guy there, you know, like again, I say, I think this is like a spiritual cousin to Thief, right? You put a. Whatever James Caan of 2011 is whatever, you know, give me whoever you want. Like a. More like you put. What's that guy who's in everything now? He's in the Odyssey too.

[Amy Nicholson]

John Barenthal.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. You put like Jon Barenthal in here. Sure. He's done a driver Movie. I have to say that. Not in a negative way at all, but you put Jon Berenthal in here. I don't think the first act of the movie works, because maybe I'm gonna say a crazy thing, but I'll say it. Cause I think that Jon Berenthal might look at her, and you'd be like, oh, he wants to fuck her. And I think you look at Ryan Gosling looking at her, and he's like, I love her. And I think that's a different movie. I think it's a different movie. And I think that you have to buy that I love her, and this person is the thing that could make me happy. I don't know. And that's why I think that that's what's so important about this movie. It's gotta be, uh. Yeah, it's got, like, you need that love. That love is the whole thing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, and what's funny is Refn, I think, has a knack for figuring out how to take an actor and make them iconic.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Mm.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, like, he launched Mads Mikkelsen with his very first movie that he made when he was 24, the push Rebecca in Denmark. Like, he found Mads Mikkelsen. He was like, this guy, put him on the screen, made him a movie star. We have Mads Mikkelsen today because of Refn. He did the first movie with Tom Hardy that I ever saw, Bronson. Then this is where I feel like he really anoints Gosling, who I had known one way, but he's like, look at Gosling this other way. You know, this is the Gosling that then, like, leads us to getting the fall guy and stuff.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. But by the way, not. Not his choice.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, well, Gosling chooses him. Yeah, that's true. Gosling chooses him. And they had such a weird relationship. Like, I heard that on set, he would treat Gosling kind of like how I would treat my cat. Like, when Gosling is mad, he would just hold him until Gosling finally submitted. And then finally Gosling would be like, okay, I get it, I get it. Or, you know, I mean, because then they immediately go from this into saying they're going to do a bunch of movies together. They're going to do a Logan's Run remake. They're going to do. You know, they do wind up doing Only God Forgives, which is not great, because it's like Gosling staring at men with hostility and not Gosling staring at women with love. Like, that movie's so negative. I can't take it. So they have, like, a chemistry that I have that I enjoy when you just go to this single moment together, like a real legit bromance. Like, I mean, this is them arguing over who came up with the elevator scene.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

That elevator scene rocks.

Yeah. And it was my idea to kiss.

No, it wasn't your idea. It was my idea.

No, no, no.

Stop that.

Let's get this settled right now.

Okay? First God made me, and then he made you. So that means that all my ideas came from first.

No, but seriously, I. I said. I said, I'll kiss her.

No, you didn't.

And you said, stomp the head.

No, no, no, no, no.

So that's why we stomp the head was.

Stomp the head was always the part. I made her kiss you.

No, but stomping the head wasn't even in the movie.

Yes, it was, where you smash your head in instead when the windshield.

But even you added that. You added that. That was your idea.

Everything was my idea.

Except for the kiss.

No, that was my idea.

[Amy Nicholson]

You hear these two guys, and you're like, I want you to make more movies. Oh, no, you did, and they're bad. But yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that, like, here's the thing. I love that this guy is making movies. I interviewed him, and he is refn. Yes. For his Amazon series. I don't know if you remember that Amazon series. It was, like, Too Old to Die Young, which it was. It was with Miles Teller. And it's one of those shows that is unlike anything that you will see because some episodes are, like, 30 minutes and some are 91 minutes, and they're this, like, sprawling thing that is. It's odd. Look, I'll be honest and say. I don't know how I feel about that. I don't like that. I didn't like that show. No, I mean, it was interesting.

[Amy Nicholson]

His new movie made me real mad when I saw it at Cannes. Yeah, yeah. Her Private Hell. I was so mad, I waited up to see it at midnight at the premiere at the big theater, and I was like, I will die.

[Paul Scheer]

I think that what he's constantly playing with is, like, where can we. I think he wants to make people uncomfortable. I think he's pushing. You know, I think that Miles Teller and him, obviously. I just say, obviously they had their own kind of headbutting, too. I mean, you're taking a young star and different ways of doing things, and you could tell. I think that that showed up a little bit in the movie.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, he's a personality like he insists on shooting in order. I think he thinks that he's a genius, and he made one movie that I think actually is genius. It is this one. And that must really go to your head too. I can imagine. I don't know. There's something really old school about Refn that I find fascinating. Where you read his interviews. You know that line about, like, we're two guys who just need to fuck? That's how he talks all the time. You know, he talks in a way that just does not feel like it goes over well anymore. But it went over okay at this moment. And I don't know, like, you're staging scenes in titty bars and you just have a lot of women with their boobs out as Ryan Gosling is beating up people. Like, the way that people bag on Tarantino for liking feet is the way that I feel about Nicholas winding Refn just wanting hot naked chicks everywhere. Actually, no, I feel more positive toward Tarantino's feet because I feel like he likes the feet. There they are here. I'm like, you wanted the character that was played by Christina Hendricks to be a real porn star, and you auditioned a bunch of porn stars and then just couldn't find one that you thought could act. Why, though? Why not just get an actress?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, yeah. I mean, yes, I agree with that. And, I mean, it's interesting. I think that he is someone who wants to figure stuff out, someone who does not live with the pressure of, I need to make a hit. I need to make, like, I gotta take drive and make the next best thing. You know, I think he's a guy who's like, well, now I'm gonna explore this. There's a great quote about. He said this about, like, you know, how he works with actors. He says, like, the first thing I ask any actor is, what would they like to do? And he said that a lot of times, people look at that and they're like, oh, well, you don't know what you want. But he's like, no. What I'm trying to do is draw the actor in. I'm trying to force them in some cases, because a lot of actors don't want to discuss things or go deep. They just want to come in and do the work, play the part and walk away. But for me, it doesn't work like that. You got to get absorbed and dirty. And a way to do that is to ask the actor what would they like to do, and it forces them to be more truthful. So I think he is part of it is like an experiment with these actors. Where do you want to go? What should we do? And let's chase that. And maybe that will come out on the back end as being something really good. But here, maybe this is a script that it works really well with, you know, where it's like the base of the script is fulfilling and so everything kind of connects. I don't know.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't know. I mean, I think it's really telling that this is one that he didn't really write.

[Paul Scheer]

That's what I'm saying. It's almost like, give him a, give him a script and let him do

[Amy Nicholson]

his shirt on it.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Cause it's like, Cause that to me feels like it's a deconstruction. And that is interesting to me because it's like, oh, he took the action genre and deconstructed it with his own mind, but he was working within parameters. And sometimes having this conversation with a friend the other day, we always are like, oh, I wish I had more money, I wish I had more time. I wish I had this. I wish I had that. I wish I had this. You don't. So you gotta make the best of what you got. And sometimes when you do, it comes out worse because part of the, part of that, like structure is part of that, like hitting that wall, you know, forces you to make more creative choices. I don't know. I, I, I like, I like it, I like that he is making movies. But I also am surprised that, you know, since this film, you know, the movies have been interesting. They're not like, they're not like Bronson. I love, I think Bronson is great, you know, and the Pusher series is interesting, you know, but it's, yeah, he's not, I don't know, I don't know if he is even worried about that for himself. I think the movie that comes out will be the next thing and that will be whatever he does.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I mean, I think he was stronger making movies about men and maleness. And when he makes movies about women, he doesn't get them at all. And so every movie that's about women with scenes of women talking to each other, I'm just like, murder me. Like, what are you doing?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, look at it like this. You know, he's only made three films since 2011, and that is, and you know, it was 2013, 2016, and then 2026. So they took a 10 year break between Neon Demon, Neon Demon and Private Hell. So that's a long time. And I think he's wrestling with what he wants to make. I'm sure he's also in development hell too. I mean, that's the other part of this is like, probably the movies he wants to make. It's hard to get financing for these, especially based on how they have been received.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I'm in favor of having him in the margins of Hollywood throwing neon colored darts at us. You know, as long as I can, like, say, I hated that one and I hated that one and I hated that one. Like. Cause I don't need to like everything he does. He's. He's a very good stylist. I think he is masterful at setting up a tone. I think he can give you a shot, you feel a tone. I think he has. He's not untalented.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. And most.

[Amy Nicholson]

But he makes me insane, like, most of the time. The fact that.

[Paul Scheer]

The fact that he is known for. For at can getting booze and a standing ovation simultaneously is kind of the sweet spot. Right. Like, you know, it's, you know, and,

[Amy Nicholson]

you know, if he is somebody out there's favorite filmmaker, I'm so happy that he has that person. Right. I'm happy if people love him as long as I don't have to.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. You know. Hmm. I think that, you know, it's hard to kind of dissect his entire career when I feel like I'm not even fully aware of all of it. I've seen Neon Demon. I haven't, like, thought about it in a very, very long time.

[Amy Nicholson]

Abby Lee's amazing in that movie.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, really?

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, she's so good. Like, that is. Abby Lee is fantastic. Like, that's why I was like, Abby Lee is one of my favorite scream presences. She's so good in it.

[Paul Scheer]

Whenever people say Abby Lee, the first thought that I think of is Abby Lee Miller from Dance Moms. And I always have to like, go like, wait, wait. And then. Cause people are like, abby Lee is amazing in this thing. And I was like, oh, she was in the Kevin Costner movie. All right, cool. You know, And. And then I realized I was wrong.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, that's true. She was in Horizon. She was fine on Horizon.

[Glass Cannon Podcast Promo Voice]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, all this to say is, I really like this movie. On this watch. I think this movie. The action sequences are brilliantly directed. The sequence where they're escaping the pawn shop. Although I don't even really understand the pawn plan. If, like you said before, like, if Christina Hendricks is supposed to be. I think she was originally written as like an adult film actress. Now she's like kind of this mole. Like, I don't fully get what she is. I don't get the plan of even robbing the pawn shop. I like the choice of being out in the car for it, but. So she's waiting outside, he goes in, and then she comes in behind and then walks out with the money, it seems. So. Like, shouldn't she be distracting? Shouldn't she already be in there? And then he goes like, I don't get the plan, but I get that you have to set up that she's in there. Seems bad. It seems like bad planning on that. That pawn shop thing. And one person should have.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. People are not geniuses at what they're.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I guess. And that's the other part of it that's fun. It's like. It's like. It's shitty. It's gross. It's like not. Yeah, they're robbing, like, the banks of. You know. We're not robbing all of LA's banks. You know, It's a simple dumb shit. And I feel like that also in

[Amy Nicholson]

the world where people hang out at restaurants where you buy jalapeno poppers for 450. Like, I like this level that it's.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. So it works. This movie works for me.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, can I tell you something as we. As we wrap this up?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know that song, Real Human Being, Real Hero? Yeah.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Do you know the story behind the Real Hero song?

[Paul Scheer]

No.

[Amy Nicholson]

That song was written by a man, a. A retired philosophy professor, a grandfather who wrote a poem about Captain Chesley Sullenberger landing his plane on the Hudson. He wrote his poem about how Chesley Salenberger was a hero. He asked his grandson to turn his poem into a song. His grandson did turn it into a song with a couple of his friends that he's known since he was a kid. They put it online. Somehow Refn finds that song and that group that called themselves the Electric Youth. After that, they do their whole first album. But the core of the Real Hero song is that man who landed a pilot on the Hudson.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow, wow, wow. And for anybody who is a fan of the rehearsal, then you know that also there's another song now associated with Sully, which is like the Evanef, the Evanescence song. I like that. There's so many things spawned out of Sully. Wow, wow, wow. Well, Amy, this is. I think what I also really like about this is when you have a great independent director trying something big, you can tell its effects on the people who came after. I Think you'd be lying to yourself if you said that Edgar Wright wasn't at all inspired by this. I think he's been inspired by other great chase movies, too. But whenever you see a great chase scene, you gotta top it, right? You gotta, like. And it's like, there's. But I think, you know, does Carey Mulligan explode a little bit after this, or is this. I mean, it's hard for me to, like, 2011 seems so vague as far as, like. Cause it's like I'm in a prime major. I'm like, yeah, Carey Mulligan's always been around, but I'm like, is this pushing people in different directions? It definitely, I feel like, expands what Ryan Gosling can do.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, very much.

[Paul Scheer]

And gives him a bigger lane to play in.

[Amy Nicholson]

And for Mulligan, I think she was a person that critics knew because she had just been in a film called An Education a year before about a young girl. But I think this is the one that makes her more pop, for sure.

[Paul Scheer]

You know? And you know, what I also thought about, too, is this movie does. Oddly, it shares some elements to me of a promising young woman. And I don't know if this is just because of Carey Mulligan, but it's also like the Paris Hilton song plays in there and that love relationship that she's having with this guy. But she's got this larger thing to do, like, you know, this revenge, the Bo Burnham relationship. Like, I felt like there was like, there's a part of me, even in the color palette of promising young woman, that felt like, oh, this is like this Cher. You know, I just think that there's a lot of. You can see a lot of the. Yeah. The crossover of how this movie kind of infects everything else.

[Amy Nicholson]

I like that parallel. Cause I think the Emerald Fennel is. Yeah, maybe she is my Nicholas Winding Refn. Like, I think most people look at her movies and get annoyed. Or a lot of people look at her movies and get annoyed by them or think she's too much or too much of a stylist or too much of this and that I have mostly gone on with them. Like Wuthering Heights, I'm iffy on. But I will see everything that Emerald Fennel ever does because I think she's an amazing stylist with a lot of provocative elbows that she's thrown around.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, isn't it always? And maybe this is a time where things are different. It does. Like, an interesting voice can fail and should fail because they're trying Things that don't always work. And when you're like, oh, just keep on doing the thing that you did, then you cease to be that interesting voice to a certain extent, because you aren't pushing your limits like it should. You should alienate an audience and attempt to find the next new thing. And maybe every third thing is a new thing. I mean, like, that's.

[Amy Nicholson]

You should leave the money behind and drive off into the darkness. Yeah, Like, I'm not gonna make a Fast and Furious movie. Take your cash. I care about blazing my own road. That's me pulling it all together.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, I'm there. I'm there with you.

[Amy Nicholson]

Me, too. I mean, you're right. We need failure to grow. Is that true? Yeah. Why do I need people willing to fail? We need people willing to fail.

[Paul Scheer]

I think we need big swings that take a lot of chances on actors, on tone, on story, because those are the things. And not to. This is before we get to our summer recap episode. But those are the things that people are responding to. Right? And we can. You know, you can call it the backrooms effect. I don't think it's about, like, YouTube is coming now to take over movies. I just think it's a person that doesn't have to answer to traditional movie questions, right? And they can be like, I can make this. And they have enough. They have enough to stand on. It's like, it's. People just want different. They want to be experiencing things. I don't think, you know, it's like. I don't know. I think that, like, obsession and backrooms. I think that the argument is like, oh, we need these new voices. But I think the reason why we need these new voices, and I don't disagree, but I think the reason why we need them is because they are not working within the same parameters that we all feel sometimes we have to work in. Because it's like the more outsider you are, the more your original idea can kind of pop before it gets codified.

[Amy Nicholson]

Shout out to all producers out there willing to take a risk.

[Nicholas Winding Refn]

I used to produce movies in the 80s. Kind of like action films, sexy stuff. One critic called them European. I thought they were shit.

[Amy Nicholson]

So, Paul, I am in a David Wayne frame of mind because he had a film that came out a couple weeks ago called Gail Doctor and the Celebrity Sex Pass.

[Paul Scheer]

I loved it.

[Amy Nicholson]

So great comedy of the summer. I really hope people get a chance to go check this movie out.

[Paul Scheer]

It's so, so good. If you are a fan of David Wayne and Cam Marino, you know, role models and they came together and of course, what hot American summer this is. This is right in your wheelhouse.

[Amy Nicholson]

It is stellar. It is stellar. It is a stellar Zoe Deutch young actor in their Ben Wang, who I think is so funny. It's basically like a sex comedy that's really innocent. Also meets wizard of Oz. Also an incredible LA movie, tons of LA locations. It's just so, so, so funny. So next week I'm just gonna rename it Wayne's Day. Was that a new thing? I don't know.

[Paul Scheer]

I like a Wayne. Well, you know what? David Wayne had the very successful web series Wayne Days, which is very fun and you can watch that online. But yeah, so it's a Wayney Days. It's Wayney. I don't know. Now I've lost the thread.

[Amy Nicholson]

What are we going to do? We are going to go back to an episode that we deeply love, our episode on Wet Hot American Summer. But also next week we're going to talk to David Wayne.

[Paul Scheer]

That's right.

[Amy Nicholson]

We're going to hit him up and put him into our real confessions booth and ask him a bunch of stuff, which I cannot wait to do.

[Paul Scheer]

I can't wait. And if you can't get tickets for the Odyssey, then get tickets for Gail Daughtry and the celebrity Sex Pass, rewatch Wet Hot and get ready to have some Weenie Days next week with us. You can watch Wet Hot American Summer if you've not already watched it. You can get that wherever your streaming movies are found. You can also make sure that you continue this conversation on our substack and watch our brand new YouTube channel. Please subscribe to it. It's completely free. There's nothing you have to do even for our substack. It is free. And you can check out our shirts that we have and they can be stickers and mugs, whatever you want to do. A big thank you to everybody here that makes our show possible. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant. Episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now.

[Patrick Picklebottom Promo Voice]

From the parents behind Law and Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom. Everyday mysteries. Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11 year old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name. This podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now. Wherever you get your podcasts

[Meg Bashwiner]

hi, we're

[Amy Nicholson]

Meg Bashwiner and Joseph Fink of welcome to Night Vale and on our new show the Best Worst, we expl explore the golden age of television.

[Paul Scheer]

To do that, we're watching the IMDb viewer rated best and worst episodes of classic TV shows.

[Amy Nicholson]

The episode of Star Trek where Beverly Crusher has sex with a ghost, the episode of the X Files where Scully gets attacked by a vicious house cat.

[Paul Scheer]

And also the really good episodes too.

[Amy Nicholson]

What can we learn from the best and worst of great television? Like for example, is it really a bad episode or do people just hate women?

[Paul Scheer]

The Best Worst available wherever you get your podcasts.