Die Hard 2 (with Jorma Taccone)

Summary

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Unspooled Podcast: "Die Hard 2" (with Jorma Taccone)

Host: Paul Scheer
Guest: Jorma Taccone (The Lonely Island, director)
Date: June 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Unspooled dives deep into 1990’s Die Hard 2, a film both beloved and often overshadowed by its iconic predecessor. With co-host Amy Nicholson away, Paul Scheer welcomes guest Jorma Taccone – writer, director, and one-third of The Lonely Island – to discuss what makes Die Hard 2 not just a worthy sequel but a standout summer blockbuster in its own right. The pair dissect the film’s action, comedy, filmmaking craft, and cultural place, drawing connections to the evolution of sequels, action tropes, and their own experiences as filmmakers and fans.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Context and Challenge of Die Hard 2

• Following a Phenomenon: The success of the original Die Hard set a high bar. Fox aimed to up the ante for the sequel, expanding from a skyscraper to an entire airport, and employing Renny Harlin’s flashy direction.
• Adaptation & Evolution: Die Hard 2 is loosely based on Walter Wager's novel 58 Minutes. The script was reworked to fit John McClane’s persona, translating the stakes to a new environment while retaining the series’ humor and grit.

  "So the question becomes, how do you follow that up without just repeating it?... The answer comes from an unlikely place, a novel called 58 Minutes by Walter Wager." — Paul (01:45)

• Expanded Cast & Scale: The movie boasts a who’s-who of character actors (John Amos, Dennis Franz, Fred Thompson) and higher stakes, with McClane battling airport chaos, a militaristic villain (William Sadler), and even bigger explosions.
• Box Office Validation: Released July 4th weekend, it brought in $240 million worldwide, cementing McClane as a franchise star.

2. Why Die Hard 2 Stands Out

• Jorma’s Fandom: Jorma Taccone explains his affection for the film as a sequel that “executes as well as the original,” arguing it’s underrated and often unfairly compared to the first.

  “It's very easy to dump on a sequel. . . it's very rare that a sequel executes as well as the original. . . I just think it's an impressive bit of filmmaking and writing.” — Jorma (05:00)

• Effective Sequel Structure: The film successfully heightens the stakes without losing the formula: concise pacing, inventive kills (icicle in the eye!), and well-integrated returning characters (Bonnie Bedelia, William Atherton, Twinkie shout-out).
• Nailing Genre Expectations: Both agree Die Hard 2 balances over-the-top action with tight plotting and character beats, comparing it to how Aliens expands on Alien (12:50).

  "It feels very much like Aliens to me versus Alien. . . they're working on the same frequency to a certain degree." — Paul (12:52)

3. Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

The "Everyman" Charm

• The film expertly preserves McClane’s “regular guy” vibe through small details — parking ticket woes, blue-collar alliances, and a rough-around-the-edges moral code.

  "It's a great way to just kind of. He's nobody again. He's just getting a parking ticket. He has no sway... and there is just like gets you on his side." — Paul (25:29)

• McClane's interactions with various staff (e.g., Marvin, the custodian) illustrate how the franchise grounds its hero.

  "He relates to Marvin. . . anybody who's blue collar is immediately on his wavelength." — Jorma (27:00)

The Villains & Setpieces

• William Sadler’s naked tai chi intro as Colonel Stewart, and the now infamous icicle-in-the-eye kill.
• John Amos’ surprise twist as a military adversary.
• The huge, visceral plane crash sequence, including the haunting image of a baby doll in the wreckage.

  "This movie kills, like, a whole plane full of people... and they make it even worse because when McClane's walking through the wreckage, he finds a baby doll in the snow." — Paul (34:58)

Action, Craft, and Physicality

• Praise for the film’s blend of practical effects and miniatures, particularly in the pre-CGI era.

  "This movie actually does that all over the place... really impressive VFX mixing with miniatures before the cgi, like, really takeover and it's... it looks really good." — Paul (59:00)

• Both lament the loss of tangible, practical effects in modern blockbusters.

  “There's a little bit of CG in the background just for set extension... but there's something that's kind of lost without it being this tech.” — Jorma (61:00)

Balancing Tone: Seriousness and Fun

• The earnest, un-self-aware tone of early action films is contrasted with later sequels’ more winking approach.

  “There's these moments, especially in action cinema, where it was like the movies weren't self aware in a way. . . but, like, there is this earnestness that I do miss sometimes.” — Paul (24:25)

Genre Parody & Directorial Perspective

• Jorma shares how making MacGruber and other projects drew inspiration directly from Die Hard's atmosphere and scenes.

  “That prop we got is the C4 from Die Hard.” — Jorma (21:30)

• They discuss the challenge of making action that’s both funny and has real stakes; Jorma’s approach is to ground the comedy in authentic craft.

4. The Evolution of Action Heroes and Franchises

• As the franchise continued, McClane shifted from gritty everyman to an almost superheroic figure, mirroring changes in Hollywood action at large.

  "He ceases to become that other guy... it gets more and more amped up, every single one. . .you start to lose the thread of who these characters are." — Paul (66:30)

• Die Hard’s legacy is the shift from invincible Rambo-types to flawed, vulnerable heroes (referencing Last Action Heroes and Lethal Weapon).

  “It's that turn from One man army, ripped as shit. . . to Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon, who, like, wants to fucking kill himself. And like, these. These guys who have, like, darker past, but also, like, who are flawed, who are getting beat to shit, like, are wearing their arc on their body.” — Jorma (62:32)

5. Childhood Nostalgia and Generational Tastes

• Both recount how their early experiences (and sometimes, parental censorship) shaped their awe for action movies and sequels, even when adult eyes see the flaws.
• They reminisce about the darker stakes and consequences in 80s/90s family entertainment (e.g., Optimus Prime’s death in Transformers, villains trying to kill Kermit).

  "I miss it so much... watching some of my kids'...programs...you're like, this is so boring...the original Transformers TV show...it's so much darker. They're like, it's so great, so violent." — Jorma (36:46)

6. Making Comedy Out of Action Tropes

• Jorma and Paul discuss the pleasures and challenges of blending action and comedy onscreen, both drawing from and poking fun at genre conventions.

  "Comedy requires an audience's judgment. . . it's almost like a Mystery Science Theater thing of, like, having watched so many movies growing up and being like, almost making the commentary of, wouldn't it be funny if this happened in this very intense moment?" — Jorma (44:20)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "You're the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Story of my life." — John Amos’s character (03:32)
• "It's one of those films that I feel like... it's very rare that a sequel executes as well as the original." — Jorma (05:00)
• "Icicle in the Eye being one of the major rememberable ones." — Jorma (05:38)
• "As a kid, I thought this was a better movie than the original Die Hard." — Paul (09:13)
• "What sets off the metal detectors first? The lead in your ass or the shit in your brain?" — (32:43)
• "This movie kills, like, a whole plane full of people... and when McClane's walking through the wreckage, he finds a baby doll in the snow." — Paul (34:58)
• "It's very impressive for a sequel in particular... to be able to do something because I'm sure they were getting tons of notes of like, can we do that?" — Jorma (35:04)
• "There's something that's kind of lost without it being this tech." — Jorma (61:00)
• "I think that's why the Die Hard franchise is a bit disappointing because you watched something that you really liked and the reasons why you liked it is not necessarily because... you liked that this dude was having a hard day and was deeply flawed and like he was gonna win." — Jorma (69:22)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:17 – 04:30: Paul sets up the context of Die Hard 2 and introduces Jorma
• 04:48 – 06:27: Jorma on why Die Hard 2 made his top 3 list
• 09:13 – 12:08: Paul & Jorma recall youthful impressions and the movie’s appeal to sequel-loving kids of their era
• 14:01 – 16:54: Hilarious memories of parental censorship and growing up with “forbidden” pop culture
• 19:39 – 21:30: Jorma reveals MacGruber’s direct aesthetic lifts from Die Hard & Commando, plus a real C4 prop connection
• 22:12 – 24:58: The earnestness of ‘90s action, staging of early villain scenes, and the fine line between dumb and inspired
• 32:17 – 34:03: Dennis Franz’s character arc, one-liner showdown, and the “ripping the ticket” finale
• 34:58 – 36:03: The impact and shocking darkness of the airplane crash sequence
• 39:04 – 42:18: Physical action, McClane’s relatable fear, and using action setpieces for tension and comedy
• 44:25 – 46:14: Jorma on “side character” obsession and wanting more films from “Rosencrantz & Guildenstern” points of view
• 62:32 – 65:12: Transition in hero archetypes: from invincible muscle to flawed everymen
• 69:22 – 73:03: Sequel escalation, franchise fatigue, and what makes Die Hard’s everyman effective

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Final Thoughts and Takeaways

• A Worthy Sequel: Both hosts agree Die Hard 2 is more than a cash-in; it’s a thoughtful, propulsive, and highly entertaining expansion of the McClane mythos.
• Action with Stakes: The movie maintains tension and stakes through grounded action and real consequences, even as it escalates for blockbuster scale.
• Hero Redefined: The film’s legacy lies in centering its flawed, regular-guy hero, influencing decades of action protagonists.
• Craft Matters: Hands-on, practical filmmaking from the pre-CGI era gives the action real heft.
• Comedy in Genre: Jorma’s insights connect the dots between loving genre, parody, and making films that straddle the action/comedy divide.

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Memorable Closing

“He's just getting a parking ticket. He has no sway... and there is just like gets you on his side." — Paul (25:29)
"Yippee ki yay, motherfucker." — Paul (75:08)

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Next Episode Teaser:
Paul previews a special on the 1979 Muppet Movie with guest Ben David Grabinski.

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For More:

• Listen to Jorma Taccone’s The Lonely Island & Seth Meyers Podcast
• Catch his new film Over Your Dead Body (VOD)
• Continue the conversation on Unspooled’s Substack

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Transcript

[A]

The year is 1990.

[B]

This once like a regular normal Christmas. Eggnog, Christmas tree, little turkey.

[A]

But no, I gotta crawl around this motherfuckin tin can. The movie Die Hard 2. Hey everybody. Welcome to Unspooled. I, I am Paul Scheer, and this is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed ems, normally I am joined by my co host, LA Times film critic Amy Nicholson, to talk about the films that people consider the best ever made. But while she is away in Cannes, we are leaving our best of lists and focusing on one person's list. One person's favorite, underappreciated classic or left of center favorite, A film that potentially doesn't get enough love. This is Dealer's Choice, a series where our guests get to choose what movie they need to talk about and anything goes. And today we are talking about Die Hard 2. Let me give you a little context here. The year is 1990. 20th Century Fox is looking to capitalize on the massive unexpected success of Die Hard. And they want to do it in a big way, right? The original film, which we did on the show a few Christmases ago, Directed by John McTiernan, is this tight contained thriller set in Los Angeles. And it blends vulnerable humor and brutality. And it makes it an instantly iconic film. So the question becomes, how do you follow that up without just repeating it? And the answer comes from an unlikely place, a novel called 58 Minutes by Walter Wager, which is a sequel to another book adapted into a Frank Sinatra movie, which, if you don't remember, Die Hard was also a Frank Sinatra film. Now the script is reworked to center on John McClane, a slightly more seasoned, still very irritated New York cop who finds himself and another contained nightmare, this time at Dulles International Airport on Christmas Eve. Now, instead of one building, it's an entire airport locked down by terrorists who seize control of the air traffic control systems, trapping planes in the sky with dwindling fuel. The director this time is Renny Harlan, a Finnish filmmaker coming off A Nightmare on Elm Street 4. He brings a much slicker, more explosive and much more stylized sensibility than McTiernan's grounded approach. Bruce Willis returns now with a lot more leverage. His salary jumps to about 7.5 million, one of the highest at the times, signaling his arrival as a full blown action star. Bonnie Bedelia is back as Holly MacLaine, though now she is physically separated from John for most of the film, stuck circling above the chaos. In one of those planes, the villains are led by Colonel Stewart played by William Sadler, a colder, more militaristic antagonist compared to Hans Gruber's theatrical elegance. And there's a rogues gallery of character actors. Oh my God, I love these people. John Amos as a no nonsense army major, Dennis Franz as the airport police chief for Fred Thompson as the air traffic control boss. And William Atherton returning as a smarmy reporter. Richard Dick Thornburg. The movie leans harder into scale. Bigger explosions, more bodies, more chaos. And it famously includes a sequence where an entire plane crashes in flames. Die Hard 2 is released on July 4th weekend 1990, positioning it as a quintessential summer blockbuster. Rather than a sleeper hit like the original. It is a major box office success making around $240 million worldwide. Proving that John McClane is isn't a one time thing. He is now a franchise.

[B]

You're the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Story of my life.

[A]

And I'll play this like clip from John Amos, which I'll send you, Harry, which is like you're the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. He's like story of my life. And that simply becomes a genre shorthand, a pitch format that will echo through the entire decade. Now who is taking us to Washington Dulles International Airport? Oh, this is a great one. He is one of the members of the Lonely Island. He is a writer, he is a director. He co directed Pop Star which is celebrating its 10 year anniversary. He is the director of MacGruber and Knuckles. He has a podcast called the Lonely Island. Seth Meyers podcast which is one of my favorite podcasts. His brand new film with Samara Weaving and Jason Segel over year. Your dead body is on VOD right now. Please welcome Jorma Taccone. Jorma.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Good to see hear you. See you Jorma.

[A]

I'm so excited to talk about Die Hard with you, but I gotta ask, you gave a list of three films. We did two of the three. How does Die Hard 2 get on your, your top three list? Because I. It was a surprise and a pleasant one at that.

[B]

Well, I, I can't even remember my other two films. It was Peewee's Big Adventure and Shawshank.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Wow. There you go. I'm impressed you did Shawshank. That's very exciting. And I figured no one would pick Die Hard too. That's the real reason. I honestly gave you one that I figured that was just going to be a shoe in. And you picked it. No, I love the film, honestly. And it's One of those films that I feel like people just. Because it's very easy to dump on a sequel. And I feel like it's very rare that a sequel executes as well as the original. I know that's gonna be shocking and horrifying for most people to hear, but I, I feel like this is, it's, as you said, it's a heighten.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like there's more bias, there's more like, you know, but like it has all of the things that the original does and then they tweak things character wise, like just like in terms of the baddies, like all that. Like some of the deaths are like just as interesting as the first ones, you know, Icicle in the Eye being one of the major rememberable ones. But no, I like, I just think it's an impressive bit of filmmaking and writing because, you know, when we were making fucking Mother Lover sequel to Dick and Box, you know, a very easy comparison to an entire feature film. But it's always a scary thing to do to follow something up that people like. And I think that this was an incredibly well executed film. And on all counts.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

As a kid, I thought this was a better movie than the original Die Hard. I was like, this is just bigger. It's cooler. Like, it just.

[B]

Did you actually though, did you actually?

[A]

I did, yes. Because it was. It just felt like I was a Beverly Hills Cop. Two is better than one. You know, Like, I was. I was the audience for this. I was like. I was like, yeah, it's bigger. Like those movies, they're talking too much.

[B]

It has to do with your age though, too. Cause I probably saw Die Hard, you know, it's like if you jump to, like, being able to see something in the theater, which I didn't, but like. But I think that having seen Die Hard and then being so excited to be able to, like, sneak and watch this with friends when I wasn't supposed to sort of thing, and, you know, like, it's the first time and whenever it's the first time of, like, I like something, I'm so proud that I like something that says something. About me Die Hard being that for every single dude our age of this generation. And then to, like, ingest this one and be like, holy shit, it. It executed. I fucking like, you know, like, I think that's the reason, right?

[A]

And. Yeah, and I think it's also, like. It's funny, you look back and now we're so into sequels, and Die Hard felt like, oh, I don't know how you do that again. Or you're not expecting that movie to be a sequel, right? And so to get these characters back and see, like, I love Bonnie Bedelia. I was like, oh, she's back. And they really kind of do it great as far as, like, dipping back into, like, Al Powell. Like, he calls him on the phone just for a little moment, and he's like, oh, yes, I'm seeing all my friends back together.

[B]

And I think that was Twinkie reference in there. Fuck, yeah.

[A]

And there's like. And there's so many, like, really funny little moments in this movie where they're all carrying this baggage of the first film. Like, I love that, like, they hate Richard Thornberg, who happens to also be on this flight with McClane's wife, and they have a restraining order against him. Or it's like, there's just a lot of, like, little things in this movie that I think it goes back to the. Well, like the way that you're supposed to in a sequel, but doesn't overstay its welcome. And everybody comes into play in a really smart way. It doesn't feel like excess.

[B]

No, no, no, no. I mean. And it has the thing that I think a lot of really good action movies, but honestly, just big pop, you know, blockbuster movies have, where it's super concise, so each scene furthers the movie. There's always a bit of new information or a new kill. So he's slowly making progress offing the baddies as he goes. There's twists.

[A]

The twist of John Amos is, like, really great.

[B]

It's really good when you see that

[A]

for the first time because they play it so, like, you're not in on it. And he's a real good adversary to John McClane like everybody else. And it's when. When he slices that guy's throat in the back of the truck. I remember just being like, whoa. And. Cause he is a good guy. Like, you know him as a good guy. It was a great casting.

[B]

They do a really good job of people always being irritated with Mlan. Like, he's still. When you first. Like, they first helicopter in, he's Irritated that like. Like Mlan's a. A piss ant, but he respects him. Like. Like there's is a. A really good red herring with that. And then. And then they do. They further the red herring with him talking to Fred Thompson. Thompson. Thank you. Like, right after that saying, like, did things just get better? They get worse. Like, and you're like, oh, shit. Like. Like he doesn't trust anybody anymore. Which is like, oh, okay, well, he's clearly wrong, this guy's. But, like, it's just. There's so much good execution in this movie. It's. It's very impressive.

[A]

It really. And it's lean too. Even though it's like, it's. There's so much going on, it doesn't feel like. I know it's contained in the airport, but he has a lot of motion in this movie. Like, they really kind of dig out all these spaces. It doesn't feel claustrophobic, but I feel like it was a really smart way to expand. It feels very much like Aliens to me versus Alien. Right. Like they are working on the same frequency to a certain degree.

[B]

What was the book that this was based on that you, like, started the preview?

[A]

It was called 58 minutes. Now, as a kid, I loved Die Hard, an older kid, and I read this book, 58 minutes.

[B]

No, you did not. Really.

[A]

Oh, I was. Because I wanted to, like, get into the world of Die Hard so much. I read both books. The first book for Die Hard was written by this author, Broderick Thorpe, and it's.

[B]

That's. Nothing lasts forever.

[A]

Yes. And so I read that, and then I read 50 minutes, but they're very. They're not at all, like 58 minutes. Definitely not like this at all. But they were just so fun to read because, like, oh, I'm getting. I'm getting some inside scoop. Even though they're not stories about John McClane in any way. It's just like, you know, a dime store paperback kind of action book.

[B]

You. You guys. I assume you talked in depth on the Die Hard episode about that book and how sad it is.

[A]

Oh, yes. I mean, it's a very, like. It's funny because I remember again, growing up, like, those are the books that you would kind of like just see in this, like, this little paperback stand, and you grab them and you never knew what you were going to get. My grandmother once took a book away from me because I was reading it and I was in the back of the car and I go, what. What's a blowjob? And she's like, what are you reading? I was like, just like, this guy, like, Mac Bolan was getting a blowjob on page five.

[B]

And I was like, wow, what did you think after she told you?

[A]

And, well, then she. She's like, I'll show you some videos. Yeah, but I just remember, like, getting a book taken away. And I was like, oh, if only I could get that Mac Bolan book again. But it was like. It's so funny that for a long time, like, people were writing, like, John Wick novels. Like, that's basically it. It was these guys who fight and fuck and drink and, you know, fucking killer.

[B]

I only got albums taken away. I got my Fat Boys album taken away because I got my Poison album

[A]

taken away and my LL Cool J album taken away.

[B]

Okay, so what song? Because the Fat Boys. One song called between the Sheets. And my mom took. She took the album. She re. Like, very kindly. Yeah, she re. Edited it. So she removed all the songs and gave me a tape back with, like, a censored version. A mom censored version of the album. What was the.

[A]

My dad used to do that for movies. My dad would edit out nudity so I would be able to, like, watch Beverly Hills Cop. But I. For the longest time, I never knew there was, like, a strip club scene in there because my dad just was, like, dual VCRs.

[B]

Oh, my God, dude, your. Your life was Cinema Paradiso. So at the end, your dad. You found all the deleted scenes.

[A]

It was just like. It was really kind of beautiful. It was a. My mom was not as good. We became born again Christian for a little bit. And so there was a list of just What?

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yo. Yeah, we were like, wow. My mom was, like, speaking in tongues, and we were going. Oh, yes. Yeah. And we were getting. We were going to long church ceremonies. It felt like church was, like, all weekend long, and my mom's getting dunked in a tank, and you know, there's

[B]

a. Holy shit, dude. I kept. I. Like, just as soon as you mentioned it, I was like, this is good improv. But no, he's not. He's not fucking around, you guys.

[A]

No, no, I was. We were. We were there, and. But, yeah, so I think LL Cool J might have just been on the list, but I think the song Candy might have been the song. It was just like, a sexual song. My mom's like, what is this? And my mom would have a very dramatic way of destroying my things. It was like the record album of Poison was broken over her knee, and the LL Cool J tape was broken in half. It was like I couldn't retrieve it from the trash.

[B]

Dude, that's like, exactly what Poison wanted. They were like, oh, yeah, the fucking devil. The devil's in this record. We're so cool.

[A]

We're the best.

[B]

I'm surprised she didn't think, like, if she broke the vinyl, that the devil might come out of it.

[A]

Well, I mean, that's the whole thing. They want you to break it so the devil comes out and haunts your house again. Like that. The backward masking thing where you play like Led Zeppelin and be like, we worship the devil. Do you remember that?

[B]

Yeah. Did your mom try that?

[A]

Oh, she did. We did that in that, but that was more of like a party trick. She's like, let's try it.

[B]

And then we did it. This is after she got over the Born Again.

[A]

Yeah. My mom will play with the devil, but she won't let me listen to devil music.

[B]

This is very surprising. Paul, I did not know this about you. Oh, yes, it's when we were shooting the wolves scene in Pop Star. We didn't talk about this.

[A]

Let me tell you. I told this to Forte. Recently, I made a slight parental mistake, which is my kids love comedy. We talked about this a while ago. My kids love hot rod. They love Pop Star.

[B]

I already know where this is going, my friend.

[A]

Yeah. So we've watched Pop Star now dozens, dozens of times. And I'm like, you know what? I think they can watch MacGruber and.

[B]

Wait, how old. How old are they?

[A]

And they are 10 and 12. And I hadn't seen MacGruber in a while. And I just like, well, I know it's super funny, but I was like, I knew it wasn't appropriate before, but we're watching a lot of snl. And I'm like, they could handle it. And of course, it's very, very dirty. And I'm like. And then I'm like in this zone where I'm like, what do I do? Do? I'm fast forwarding moments, you know, 10 second skips and stuff. But I just like, if I make too much of a deal out of it, then it will feel like I took it away. Anyway, long story short, they are obsessed with MacGruber. We watch that, and then we watch the Peacock series right after that. And, you know, I think that you are such an amazing director. And I think that just watching MacGruber and then watching this, I was also like. Cause you. You direct. And I think with your newest movie too, like, you just, you are a hell of a director. Like, it looks good. I think a lot of people talk about like, oh, things don't look good anymore, and the lighting is bad. And this, like, you actually shoot these things that really just. And I was thinking a lot about the MacGruber TV series because there's a lot of warehouses in it and there's and, and, and this. And Die Hard's a lot of like, there are a lot of like, he's, I don't know, always running into places where a lot of steam is coming out. Like this airport is run on steam.

[B]

Oh, dude, the. The scene in the hallway where you introduce the baddies in Die Hard 2. I hope everyone appreciates my English baddies reference. But as they're going into the hallway, you're like, the fucking hotel's on fire.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, there is so much atmosphere there. It's the same as like the first, like, I think it's the first Lethal Weapon that you like in a parking garage. And you're like, it's an open air park and you're like, how the fuck. This whole building's on fire. They need to get the fuck out.

[A]

Like so much smoke. So much. Like everything, everything was either ice cold or just steaming hot in those movies

[B]

because it's like, like the moment we made McGruber. I like Brandon Trost, my, my buddy who shot that, who's. Now he's shot. He's shot fucking amazing shit. Yeah. I'm sure you've worked with him many times, but like, he worked with Seth and Evan a shitload. He's just came off the last two Sonic movies and he was like, like, everything outside is a wet down. Everything inside is smoked out. And I'm like, yeah, that's exactly like, you know, like, like the moment we started talking about. Actually Die Hard was a big reference for us, right? For Die Hard. Like, I mean, you know, like when we were making McGrimber, we were referencing things like Commando, Die Hard. There's actually like so a couple little Fun facts about McGroomer. The, the binoculars that, like when they're looking at the end, like, they're like, they're scoping out the compound. That is a, A shot from Commando. I literally like freeze framed on Commando and recreated the binoculars in Photoshop for that, like, for that moment. And then in the very beginning when the credits are going the bomb, there's a bunch of C4 that MacGruber is putting a little pin in. He takes out his gum, he sticks it in and is just like, opening credits. And that prop we got is the C4 from Die Hard.

[A]

Oh, that's amazing.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

I'm surprised. And you know, that you didn't also embrace the thing that Die Hard 2 does with commando, which is the dictator in this movie is from that fake country that all the Joel Silver movies created.

[B]

Oh, that's so great.

[A]

It is called Valverde. So they're always. I just love that they created their own fake.

[B]

I did not know that. That's fucking hilarious. They must have laughed so hard. Every time they put it.

[A]

It's always Valverde. Because I'm like, yeah, from Valverde. And so it really. Yeah.

[B]

Don't want to offend anybody, but, you know, vaguely South American dictator now.

[A]

I mean, but there is so many funny things. And I think I started laughing so hard rewatching this because as a kid, it was the most badass thing to see. The bad guy in this, William Sadler, you know, you're introduced to him naked doing, like, tai chi in that hotel room.

[B]

You've watched this with commentary, I assume?

[A]

No, I did not watch this with commentary.

[B]

Oh, so great. And then I watched all the deleted scenes and the featurettes. Featurettes. Like, do yourself a favor. Fucking. All the. The extras on this are great. He talks about that of how Rennie Harlan was like. When he was like. He went to costumes and they didn't have a costume for him, and he was like, what's the deal? And Rennie was like, in his little finish accent was. Was like, I was thinking that maybe you'd be nude. And he was like, oh, shit. So they did it at the end of the shoot because he was like,

[A]

I want to be ripped for this.

[B]

I got to like the part. I mean, because he's so committed, too. Like, it is like, it's. You know, it's. And like, hilariously, it's like sort of a. Almost like, you know, on crack version of the Apocalypse now, you know, likewise depressing.

[A]

But it's also. It's a great way to introduce these villains. And I think he does it. It's so stupid, but it works. Like when he turns really quick and uses the TV remote like a gun to shut off the tv. Like, it's.

[B]

That is dumb.

[A]

But it is played so well.

[B]

It's such an exercise in. You can do the dumbest shit. As long as people don't smile and wink at all, you can get away. We were just talking about Inherent Vice. Like, Paul, PTA does this all the time. Where the fucking reverse rape in the last One which is just a comedically stupid line delivered by Sean Penn. So. And it becomes so funny where you're like Jesus. Or the Moto Panakakus Inherent Vice by Brolin. Like they're just Giving these like 150% grounded performances with like ridiculous fucking lines. Like totally. And it's such an example of like, oh man. Like, you know, use the remote as a fucking gun.

[A]

Well, and, and that's the thing. Like. And I feel like there's these moments, especially in action cinema where it was like the movies weren't self aware in a way. Like, yes, he's saying, you know, he says yippee ki yay at the end. But I feel like by the time we get to Die Hard, the extra Die Hards, like yippee ki yay is almost like, you know, it's like a pull string on his chest. You know, it's like. But I feel like he earns it. But like there is this earnestness that I do miss sometimes of like these movies. It's like you can get away with a lot more. You don't have to, you know, you don't have to justify it that much. You know, I feel like, oh my

[B]

God, all of the little one. I mean granted, like. Like Bruce Willis, like what a tremendously. He's so charming, as you said, like total curmudgeon. Like I like you always love that

[A]

part of a parking ticket. It's a great way to start the movie.

[B]

By the way. I think that that's in the book like that. That one part of the parking ticket and the car being towed, I think is in. Nothing lasts forever. And it's the one thing that got put Into Die Hard 2 is like the way it starts. He's like, it's a great.

[A]

It's a great way to kind of. I mean, I know that term like is used all the time like the save the cat term. But like it's. It's a great way to just kind of. He's nobody again. He's just getting a parking ticket. He has no sway. He. You know, and there is just like gets you on his side. Yeah. User on his side. One more time.

[B]

Come on, man.

[A]

This is my mother in law's car, all right? She's already married me because I'm not a dentist.

[B]

Look, I'm a cop. Lapd.

[A]

How about little team spirit, huh?

[B]

I was in LA once. Hated it. Well, I can understand and I don't

[A]

like it much place.

[B]

Hey, that's a plastic bender up there. Take it easy. Off. I'm doing my job. Cut me some slack, will you?

[A]

Look, I used to be a cop

[B]

in New York City. I only moved to LA cuz my

[A]

wife took a job there. Come on, what do you say? Here we are, Washington D.C. the heart of democracy.

[B]

One hand washes the other.

[C]

Bring your bags over here.

[A]

Come on, man, it's Christmas.

[B]

So where's Santa Claus to give you another car? Merry Christmas, pal. Oh, they. They go to the Wells so many times with this move. But it's like I just love Die Hard in this movie. Like, I mean it's in every one of them. But like, but these two movies in particular, he's so good at, at being with the Everyman. Like anybody below a captain in the police force is like like a salt of the earth. Like, like, you know, like a dude you can trust. Blue collar. Like, like these guys get it. Even like the guy who works at the baggage thing, who helps him get into the door, he relates to that guy. He relates to Marvin. Marvin under like, you know, like, like, like. Which is really like. The thing that's interesting about dyard though is that. Is that in terms of the save the cat thing is that they also give you this really dark aspect of it. Like, you know, like him saying like in the first one, saying like, like I'm gonna make you squeal like your brother did when I broke his fucking neck. Or like, you know, like what he says, like horrible shit. Yeah, he's so dark. I mean, he's like McGruber level, like disgusting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sort of thing. But. And you're. But you like that aspect of him too because it feels like you're not being lied to where you're like, oh no, he's an angry dude. Yeah, he's like. He's got all these like. And so there's a. A deleted scene in Die Hard 2 where he fucks with Marvin way harder. And it breaks the reality of that of like him connecting with an everyman. What you, what you find out in the deleted scene is that Marvin, you know, like this custodial guy who helps him get like to the skywalk and like figure out like the blueprints of the airport. Like Marvin's character, he is been living. He's homeless and he's living at the airport and John McClane to get information like out of him or like, like get his help. He threatens to basically expose him and get him fired. And the deal, it doesn't go all without words but like, but it breaks that thing which is like the tried and true, like he relates to every men. Anybody who's blue collar is immediately on his wavelength and he sort of understands, so you don't need that. But it was an interesting thing to see them fuck up the formula.

[A]

Well, it was so interesting because I noticed there's a moment where when Marvin finds one of the walkie talkies that's decoded so they can actually listen to the bad guys, he was like, can you give me $20? And he's like, why don't I let you live? I was like, oh, Jesus.

[B]

I was like, I found it on the floor by the coat next to the luggage. What the hell you so excited about that for? Code's still punched into this one. You like it, huh? How about you give me 20 bucks for it, but I let you live? Man knows how to bark. Oh, he does say that. You're right. You're right. Right?

[A]

So he like. It's still like. It's like, God, man, like this.

[B]

So they didn't take it all out.

[A]

You know, there's still this like little moment where you're just like, it's a little too rough on this guy who's

[B]

only been telling me it was, it was worse when he was like, like deciding whether he was gonna like, like kick him home.

[C]

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[A]

unschooled. But I think you're right. Like that idea of he's a blue collar guy and you put him next to like the best blue collar guy, which is like Dennis Franz who I think he's so good in this movie. I mean Carmine is excellent, you know, and they're just so frustrating. They're so at each other like. And the best line of the movie. Let me ask you a question. What sets off the metal detective first? You know the, the, you know, the brains. Hey Carmine, let me ask you something. What sets off the metal detectors first? The lead in your ass or the shit in your brains?

[B]

Like, I also love that they Give him an arc where he's been a pain in the ass. He doesn't believe him. He. He fucking shoots blanks at him where like, 30 cops pull guns because he's firing blanks in a fucking control tower at Dennis Browns. And then the moment it happens, they're like, oh, okay, cool. That explains it. He's just been firing this automatic weapon. It's fine. Guns down. You're good. And then Dennis Franz has the turn of, like, now I'm gonna kick ass. And I'm on your side. And you're like, oh, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, like his brother, which is like, Ernie Sabella, right? It was like. Or like, some, like, other guy who's amazing. But the thing that I thought was so funny is they're trying to make his arc end really nicely. So, like, you know, now McClane has beat the bad guys. The 747 has crashed. And then, you know, and Dennis Franz pulls up and say, mcclain, did you get a parking ticket out inside of my place? And he's like, yeah. And then they hold it, like, oh, shit. What's gonna happen? He's like, hey, it's Christmas. He rips it up and tosses it in the air. But it's such a. Like, it's like a.

[B]

Dude. Imagine how funny it would be if he had just held up one of those old credit card swipe machines, like, you better pay it right now. And then the rest of the movie was just. As credits were rolling. He's just like, it didn't go through it like this.

[A]

Can you just.

[B]

I'm gonna write down the number I just got.

[A]

I can do it on your back. I just. Damn it. But it is such a. I mean, and this movie does these little moments like that. Like. I mean. Cause it's like, look, it works like, when those airplanes are landing at the end. Maybe it's music, or maybe it's just that I'm a dad now, but I. Well, up at moments like that. I'm like, oh, here. Oh, all these airplanes are landing. That's great. All these people are safe. But this movie kills, like, a whole plane full of people. And it's really, like, early second act. It's like. It's very like. And they. And it's like, okay, that's bad. But they make it even worse because when McClane's walking through the wreckage, he finds a baby doll in the snow.

[B]

Like, oh, yeah, they don't fuck around. Yeah.

[A]

I was like, wow, they really are.

[B]

No, I was very. It's very impressive. For a sequel in particular that I'm sure they were extremely protective of and scared that it wasn't going to work and like to be able to do something because I would. I would imagine they were getting tons of notes of like, can we do that? Like. Like being like, you know, scared that like this is too much. Like, it's. So I was just rewatching it and it. In my mind, it happens really early second act. It's actually like almost midpoint. Okay. And so it is this heighten of like, holy shit. Like, these guys aren't fucking around, which is amazing. And then right after that is the introduction of Major Grant comes in. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then you get that like.

[A]

Yeah, now it becomes.

[B]

But in terms of like the screenwriting, you're like, fuck, this is so great. And in terms of that too, like, I always loved in like 80s movies and maybe you guys have like discussed this one, but 1986, Transformers, the. Or 1985, the animated movie of Transformers, where they kill Optimus Prime.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Where they like execute Optimus Prime. And you're like. It was a different era of like, you're like, yes. Kill your main character.

[A]

Well, this is like the thing I've noticed, as you know, and I'm sure you probably see this too, like when you're bringing your kids to movies, they're very like sanitized to a certain degree. And I was watching the Muppet Movie with my son and he was like, wait a second. They're trying to kill Kermit the Frog? Like, they bring in a man to kill him and it's like they wouldn't even touch that. Like, you get like the home. They wouldn't make home alone. But in a movie with a puppet, there's a man that is like, has a. Like a spear ready to fire at Kermit the Frog.

[B]

Dude, I gotta say, I miss it so much. Like, watching some of my. My kids, this is not like there's a lot of excellent programs, 100% young, young kids. I have like a five year old. You know, Bluey is. Makes me cry. It's so beautiful, amazing. So, so well written. The music's incredible. But like, but watching some of the. We were watching like PJ masks or like it was like a Spidey Spidey thing. And you're like, they're having to like, they can't even throw like a plastic like, like Spidey's like working on like his web shooters with like plastic bottles. And it's like, it's all about Recycling. And you're like, this is so boring. Like, you're like, we know, we know. You're supposed to recycle, like all of the old, like Transformers. My kid watched 90. There's, I think there's 99, 98, 99 episodes of the original, like 1985, like, like that era of Transformers TV show. And there's so much darker. They're like, it's so great, so violent.

[A]

There's so much there. I mean, even the end of the old GI Joes, like the PSAs where like kids are like riding their bike over open power lines and stuff. Like, hey, hold on, don't touch that. Like, you're like, wow. Like, and now it is all like just very simple. I mean, there was a Rambo cartoon. I remember watching a Rambo cartoon. I don't know if I remember it as a, an adult doing it or a kid, but there was one Rambo cartoon where he would just go out and just kill people all the time.

[B]

I mean, it's, it's so funny because it's this double edged sword thing. Like you're like, oh, well, I don't know want that lesson learned necessarily.

[A]

I don't know if I need Rambo, but I, but I do want like, yeah, I think it's always like, you forget that these characters need like a moment. I think that that's like, that's kind of Bruce Willis's superpower because in this movie he's like on the wing of an airplane. He's doing some stuff. In the first movie, it's like you can buy that this guy can do pretty much anything because he's just a guy and he's just using his wits, this one, you know, there are some larger leaps to take, you know, and I think he does a great job of like being, of showing that scared. And like, I think that moment where they are shooting at him in the cockpit, he plays scared. And I feel like when you see a moment like that, you're like, oh, I forgot. Yeah, you can be scared in moments. Like you can have.

[B]

Right before that, right before that moment when he comes out, like, you know, like a bad guy from fictitious country, dictator comes out, says the great line of freedom. And then he punches in the face and says, not yet. And then, and then he goes in and he's like, he's like, I'm gonna trade you for my wife. So you're like one that's sort of like this conniving, like, you're just a chess piece for me. And I Only care about my wife. But it's this reminder. It's the. The peewee's bike thing. You're like, this. This reminder of, like, this is what he cares about. He cares about his wife. And it's this reset that comes right before the fear. Fear thing. Yeah. Like, oh, now I'm back on his side of, like. Like. And he's like, he's. He doesn't even care. Like, like, you know, it's like he. He will give that dude up, right? Give him his freedom as long as his wife survives. We're like, so on, like, like, a bunch of different levels. You're like, this is this really. It's so in character with him. It maintains, like, his, like, sort of crass. Like, I only care about this one thing he cares about, his wife. And then straight into the fear thing. Into the, like, ingenious. Like, paint yourself into a corner. It's such a. This. This awesome, like, reminder of, like, don't ever let up. Like, paint yourself into a corner. How the fuck is he gonna get out of this? You think he's gonna throw the grenades back? None of that. You're just like, he's gonna die.

[A]

And they really do ratchet up. Cause, like, all these guys shooting and they show him inside and it's like, really just. And it's like, I wonder if that is possible to eject yourself from a stationary plane. I don't care, obviously. I think that's like the. That's the craziest moment probably of the entire movie in, like. But yeah, it's like, it's. Oh, yeah. He gets out. And there is something, though, where you see that struggle when he's fighting and he stabs a guy with the icicle. Great fight sequence. It's, like, sloppy. It's great. And he seems like he's out of breath and he's tired and. And he takes in, like, the death. And in that sequence, like, he's popped up, he's flown up into the air. He's parachuted down. We know that he's afraid of flight, like, air, everything. And he's like, hey, where's the fucking door on this thing?

[B]

By the way, one of the few. Like, you're like, definitely an ADR line, but you're, like, good on you. They needed something, like. Yeah, because they're always doing that of, like, reminding you that, like. But it's fine. Like, they stabbed the guy in an eye, like. But, like. But it's always going back to, like. It's fun, right? He's A fun dude. Like, you're like, what. By the way, that. Like, that thing of, like, which they do so well in the original Die Hard of, like, you know, glass shattering everywhere. The, like, you know, like, the starting the movie with, like, the feet thing of, like. Like, take your shoes off. Now, this. This one little thing in the beginning of the movie, like, with you being barefoot is going to become this major problem, which is in the original book as well, which is cool. But, like. But the glass thing that comes back very much in the cockpit thing, where there's glass everywhere. It's like. It's the chaos of like, oh, fuck, I'm gonna die is what we were going for in McGrber when he's getting the van shot out and they're. They're panicking, and it's just all the bullets ricocheting off the thing. You don't know how they're gonna get out. And then. And then the incredimop. You know, it's just so fun because you're like, oh, what's our. What's the stupid. The really, really stupid version?

[A]

I mean, that. Like, that sequence. And that's what I really love about the. Like, you're able to, when you're directing these action sequences, to keep that. The level up of the action. And then it's also, you know, the hilarious. Like, it's hilarious to watch him just, like, screaming inside the car, but then also you're cutting to, like, wig in the coffee shop. Who's, like, repeating all that stuff and on the ground at the same time. Um, it's a. But it's like. But the action never, Like, I'm always impressed with that. Like, you can keep the action looking really good. And when I watch something, and I won't even name a name, but there are these, like, action comedies. The action is very, like. It's just, like, very. There's no stakes to the action. It feels like I can think of.

[B]

I do that a lot, honestly. Is that, like. And in over your dead body, we do that as well, where, like, it becomes this, like. Like very intense. Like, all this intense stuff has happened. The really violent, really gory shit has happened. And then there's a moment where one of our characters can't remember his name because he's been bashed on the head super hard. And then I go. We go to wide. And it's the same thing, honestly. It's the same move as MacGruba of, like, going to Vicky in the coffee shop where you've been doing intense. You're showing that you can do intense. And then, as you know, like, in being in comedy, like, there's nothing lamer than a good wide. And then. So to go from, like, intense, intense, intense to pull out, guy can't remember his name. Everyone's waiting. Because, like, you know, for comedy, it also requires an audience's judgment. And if you don't have those characters in it who are just sitting and watching and judging. But it's so fun. Cause I think a lot of my comedy comes from. It's almost like a Mystery Science Theater thing of, like, having watched things, watching so many movies growing up and being like, almost making the commentary of, wouldn't it be funny if this happened in this very intense moment? And then you get to do that where you, like, get to create a moment, create it with music, create it with, like. Like the visual, like, side. Like, fuck all. It really looks like an action movie. And then pull up and then show how fucking dumb it is from the perspective of, like, people in a coffee shop.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Just having this moment of just, like. You're right. That idea of, like, the audience judging it, like, people around it, like it's happening in the real world because the movie feels so contained, right? So it is. It's like when you can pull w makes it, it does just give you that extra moment. Because I think every one of these things, like, I, like, I am obsessed with, like, the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, like, world of these movies. Like, I would love to just make movies around, like, a pivotal. Like, pivotal scene in these bigger films. Because it is. It's like something crazy just happened here.

[B]

Let me just, like, say one more thing about that.

[A]

Yeah, please.

[B]

I have always been obsessed with this idea. I hope someone can just do this in AI. This is the perfect use of AI Guy. I want. I wanted to make, like, a short film guy. Like, really, like, sort of in indie slice of life guy who's trying to make good. He's had, like. Like, relationship has fallen apart. He's. But he's trying to get his shit back together. He's like. He's. He's got a promotion at work. He works at a mall. He. He's he's like. He's a very specific kind of, like, dude. He's like, like janitorial staff in a mall. He, like, you. You put all of this work into, like. Like he's gonna see his kid. Like, he's got all these hopes and dreams, you know, Like. Like, and he's gonna get, like, the Diploma. He's gonna go to college and make him like his life better. Puts on his. His red suspenders in the back. He's gonna go out for one last shift, like at this mall. And then he goes into a hallway and he's the dude from. In Terminator 2 when they're in the hallway and he's like a dude with a Pepsi can who like turns around and gets shot a whole bunch of times. And you're like, you put all of this energy into. But I'm obsessed with that. Of like this small little dude who's like, not even like a thought. He's just murdered mercilessly for no reason.

[A]

No reason for it. You know, his family's like, I don't know what happened. It was a guy in the mall and it was a shopman, like, doing something.

[B]

Yeah. But like, to that same point, like when I watched the first John Wick, there's this moment like they go back to John Wick's house, right? It's been burned to like, you know, it's like yet another nail in the coffin of like, how could you do this to this poor man who's like, lost everything. His dog's been killed. He goes. But like, they, they go. They do a, like another emotional reset, which is kind of like what, like you the Very Good and Die Hard of like reminding you like, the, the wife. Like his is. Is, you know, and. And he's in his burned out house and he picks up this, like, locket from his wife or whatever. It's this reminder of like, how much he lost his poor way. Like. And I was like, oh, this would be fucking amazing if they just cut to every single widow that he's just made for. Like, like, where you get to see every single man he' and all of the sad wives who have had to say goodbye to their poor husband.

[A]

That is the honest, like, the best character in history because he is straight up evil. But just because he's like, hey, you know what? I'm stopping doing my killing now. You're like, oh, he's a good guy. Like, he is a mass. A mass murderer. Like, no doubt about it. Easily, you know, but we just didn't meet him. We just don't know him from that point of view. Like, we just. We didn't know him but like a year ago.

[B]

Yeah, I'm surprised John Wick doesn't have one of them. That's called two in the chest, one in the head. Like, just let every single dude pow, pow, pow. This father's day do more with dad

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Now I want to ask you about, like, just the way that you approach stuff, because I feel like getting into it from a caught me. You're, you know, the videos with Lonely island that you guys made, how you started out like with the boo and stuff like that. Channel 101.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I think that. And I, I'll just, I'll put myself here. If you agree, then fine. But I think that we always start from the point of view of like, oh, a parody or like, how do we capture like a vibe of something that make it funny, right? And like, like kind of you're, you're like. And so you're trying to ape certain styles, but it's for comedy, right? And, and now I feel like watching your career, it's like, like, it's so impressive. When I look at what you're doing, I feel like it's very specific and you are kind of leaning more and more into like, very interesting genres. I mean, you did a musical, you've done an action movie, you're doing this like, kind of horror. Like, but also they're all, they all have comedy underneath them. But like, how are you approaching stuff? Or would you do something that's very straightforward?

[B]

I think that, I mean, like, you know, we've now been in the biz for a minute, you and I. And like, and it. And it's weird to even say that this is, you know, like when it becomes a career and you start to be like, I guess this is what I do, right? But like, and I'm allowed to do, honestly, like, but. But, you know, you're sort of only allowed to do what people have seen that you can do in Hollywood, which is always a bummer because you're like, no, there's more sides to me than that. So I think that I'm always looking for things that, like, access another or. Or showcase another side of me. And like, that's the. That.

[C]

That.

[B]

That's the slightly more cynical way to look at it, I think. Think those are the things that intrigue me. Not on a career level, but, like. But things that, like, are challenging. And like, you know, like, for instance, this last. This last movie one, it's a challenge to, like, make a remake that was like a real terrifying thing. Like, especially of a remake that I, that I liked the original of so much. And then, yeah, it's a threading of tones to me of like, there's real scenes in it. There's real acting scenes. There's scenes that, you know, like, on set, I'm. I don't need to interrupt. I want to, like, actually see real emotion play out. Like, rather than, like, you'd be like, say this, you know.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Wouldn't it be funny if. Yeah, no, like. And so, like, so, like, that, that aspect, like, really trying to see if I can make something that, like, people care about on a heart level. And I think that, like, so that, like, there's. There's that. That aspect to it for sure. I think that, like, it is fun as a quote, unquote filmmaker. And this has been the case for us forever, like, you know, going back to, like, who of, like, you know, you love these things, right? Like, these are things that you want to put on a pedestal. How we felt about, like, the O.C. i loved the O.C. as a show. It was an overly dramatic, like, teenage soap opera. Right? But like, but they're putting music and they're making you feel something regardless of like, you know, it has all the tropes of, like, he's a Karate kid. He's a kid, you know, like, who, like out of town, who's being abused and like. But there are these tropes that. That work forever. And I think that, like, that, you know, like it. So it's really fun to dip into genre, but things that you've seen and want to. I think I always say you love spoof is almost like to do it completely, to do it properly, you have to love it.

[A]

And I draw this line a lot between there is parody and then there's genre aping. Genre. It's like I want to create something that's. I'm going to make it funny in this world. But I'm not just doing the one to one joke, right? It's like, like you're. And I feel like that's the thing that's different. I don't know. And I feel like that's very, very much. I mean you're just, you're making these great films. But I also. I don't even know if you remember this, but I went to go visit you on the set of Land of the Lost and I know how uncomfortable that that costume was. You were head to toe in this like fur co. It was a. It was an insane costume.

[B]

You know, three, three and a half hours.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Putting that on every day. Yeah. It was always funny when you like got up at 4 in the morning, put that shit on. They get to the end of the day and they're like, ah, we're not gonna use you. You're like, yeah, cool, cool, cool.

[A]

I remember like. And I just remember like, oh, you're in that stuff. And with over your dead body there's a lot of blood and there's a lot of stuff. And I also, like, as an actor and a director, do you also bring that into it knowing like, okay, these people are fucking covered in blood. I gotta get through this quicker. Or you like. I always feel bad. I'm like, I know you don't wanna be underwater now. I don't know, but I need to get this shot. Like, is there.

[B]

I think, I think. Well, I think it's both. I think it's that you are cognizant of people's time. I would say like things like that of like not wanting to call people in when they're not gonna be used. Right. But. But if you're on camera, then I think I'm probably more abusive because I have done it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm like. Cause I know what I'm willing to put up with.

[A]

Right. And you've done it.

[B]

Pain for me. I'm like, no, if that shit's, you know, like, like, you know, I always go back to like there's a moment in Hot Rod where me and Danny like, we're doing this dance. We're like celebrating outside of like a 7 11ish dance that my son now

[A]

does all the time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm doing the Dhalsam dance. Like that was my reference. It's like Dalsin from Street Fighter. I'm doing Dhalsim Dance. And then, and Then fucking. But Danny's like, shoving me into this van and I'm like, it's. And it's so much funnier when I picture I'm outside my body and I'm like, oh, it's much funnier when you see someone's name, neck snap back. And so I'm like, shove me up here, right? Like, to Danny, I'm like, shove me up here. And then I'm gonna let my neck, like, pop back. And I'm like, it hurts, right? It does hurt, but I'm like, that shit's way funnier. And so, like, because, because I think I'm willing for comedy to go to those places of like, nah, it's way better if I, like, bust my hamstring. Like, like, then I'm probably shittier with it. Having said that, that in, in over your dead body, Siegel's character goes like, he's being pulled by a rope behind a boat at one point. And you actually see this in the trailer. So it's not like a, like a spoiler or anything, but like, but Siegel's doing it. He's. He's caked in like, you know, a couple hours of makeup. He looks beat to shit. He's covered in blood, and he's, you know, pulling himself. It's a, it's. He's going probably 15, 20 miles an hour in a, in a boat. I don't know what that is in knots. And, and, and he's, he's pulling a rope. That is so hard. He's cabled, but he's pulling himself. And it's freezing cold water. And then, so, so on the flip side of like, me being abusive and being like, nah, nah, do it again. Like, like we have a camera crane rushing at him. We almost hit him with it. And then he's the kind of actor who's like, let's do it, let's do it again. I got one more. And I'm like, dude, I can't lose you this early in the shoot. So maybe, so maybe it's self serving and maybe it's like that I just want to kill my actor because I want to get through the fucking shoot. But like, but, but when you got it and it's there on film and you know you got it because, yeah, like, you've edited like shitloads in your career. You know, the moment you're like, it's in there. I like, I gotta, like, you don't need to kill yourself, right?

[A]

And then you also have. I have had the other experience where I'm like, oh, I didn't get it. And I wish I would have just done it. Like, in that moment. Yes. When someone's rushing you and saying, like, no, no, we gotta go. We gotta go. It's like, no, no, no. It's like. And it's. It's important. You gotta fight for these little things because you do know. You do know when you have it. And you do. And when. And when you don't have it, it is such. It's like, well, that's it. It's gone. And you will never essentially get.

[B]

You know what's really funny. Bring it back to Die Hard too.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, right? I had a look back.

[B]

So then. No, no, but like, a thousand percent. And you only learn that as a director from being in the edit and kicking yourself. And you're like, the person that did this. This is me. Like, I this shit up. So. So I have to own this. Of like, now. You got to creatively figure it out in the edit. And like, that moment of just, like, knowing, like, you're like, that five extra minutes of like, yes, we're gonna have to push lunch. Yes. You're like, but, like, it is what it is. You have to fucking get the thing. And there's a but. It's always weird to me when I see, like, I'm not gonna name names, but I've seen bigger movies. I'll say this, and you can bleep it, sure. But I was watching, right, that my. My wife was asked to give notes on. And you're like. And to watch these scenes with these massive. They're spending fucking hundreds of millions of dollars on these things. And you're like, how did they not fix this on the day? Do they just have. They have ungodly money and they're just, like, powering through with this dialogue that doesn't work. I'm like, dude, if the dialogue doesn't work or the scene isn't working, like, don't shoot it. And there's this. So to bring it back to Diehard 2, there's a scene with him and Marvin, and it's yet another obstacle. Right? Right. The obstacle is that he needs to get to the Skywalker. Whatever. And he's got to get from point A to point B. And there's this thing, and it's just like a touchstone. It feels like almost like an exact note, like, at the time. Like, what. What's the thing where he's almost going to fall into a giant pit? Like, the first one with the, like, elevator Shaft. And he's got to go, like, on this I beam from one place to another. And he.

[A]

And he.

[B]

And. And they're like. They're like, there's a thing you got to do, but, like, you got to be an acrobat. And he's. And he's tentatively walking on an I beam, but it'.

[A]

Whack.

[B]

It's like, you don't want to see your lead character who's, like, a badass, you know, every man's man. And, like, then he's just doing the. Like, he's just sensitively walking over an I beam like a child. And you're like this. But you're like. The moment you see it, you're like, how did they even edit this scene? Like this. Like. Like, just watch it for, like, once. Even if you're watching it on monitors, you're like, well, that's out, right?

[A]

It's not going to work. It does. And sometimes you're just like. But I guess we just shoot it and then we move. Like, he's like, yeah, yeah, we got it. It got. And like, he's like, you're gonna cut it. You. You were gonna.

[B]

It's not gonna look cool. Rennie Rennie is such a good director that I have to assume in watching that scene that you're like, this was someone's exec note. He had to shoot it. So he shot it kind of like a. Yeah, this sucks, man. There's no fucking way. And then it was in one test screening only with the studio, and they're

[A]

like, well, I got it. Yeah, we got it. You gotta lose the I beam. Make them take the note back by like, you should lose the I beam. Oh, yep. Great. Great note. You're like, you gave it to me, and then you take it away. I was gonna say doing something to make sure you get it. And I'm sure you've seen some of this on the DVD commentary and. Or the special features is like, Renny Harlan was not happy with the 747 explosion when they blew up a real 747 in this movie. And it's like, man, eh, we gotta do it again. And they're like, no, no, no, no. We just blew up a giant. This is like the. This is the biggest thing that we've done. We can't just, like, do it again. And this is like a big argument because it cost so much money. And this is the. This is the first crash, the Windsor. The. So that was like. And they, you know, they couldn't build another Plane. So they did all this, like, really cool, like, VFX and miniature one work. And this movie actually does that all over the place. Like the final scene where the planes are coming in, like, that moment where the. The plane comes through the fog. Like, this is all like. Like begin. Like, not beginning of map, but, like, really impressive VFX mixing with miniatures before the cgi, like, really takeover and it's. And, man, it looks really good. It really looks good.

[B]

Do you remember, like, you. I. I remember, like, when first shooting Land of the Lost, and I. I don't know which sets you actually got the. I saw the.

[A]

The big giant one where it was like a temple set. I feel like I was on.

[B]

Like. Okay, so, like, the. Like the. The temple one, like, they flipped those. Like, it had, like. There was like, three sound stages at Universal, and they would flip. Flip them because they had these massive builds. So they would do, like, redwood forest, and you'd go in, and there was, like, crickets living on the stage. And it became like it was alive. And I remember just talking to, like, some crew dudes who'd, like, you know, been in the industry, you know, 40 years or whatever, and they're were like, they don't do this anymore. Like, they remember being on these sets where they would build. You know, like, each of those sets was, like, $3 million.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're. But. But you're like. And there's a little bit of CG in the background just for, like, set extension and things like that. But you're like, it has this tangible thing that you don't get to see anymore. Like when those explosions, like, even if they're miniatures, right? Like when the plane. That first plane hits, and I think it's a miniature like that. That explodes. But you're like. They're getting great fireballs. Like, the whole thing is lighting up in this way that you're like, this is fucking. And from you, you feel the difference. Like, obviously, like, things are progressing right? But, like. But there's something that's kind of lost without it being this tech.

[A]

Like, the biggest. The easiest way to look at it is even with all the technology. When you see Yoda in the Rian Johnson Star wars versus the other CGI Yodas that have been in other things. Like, oh, yeah, that's Yoda. Like, there is. That is a. And it just. It just feels more. You can touch it. It feels real. And I feel like this is like. I love movies in this era because I feel like they're just like him on the side of the airplane you can buy. Meanwhile, like, think on Die. Live Free and Die Hard. Like, he's on the. The. The wing of like a F14. Or. Like, it's something now it's getting like, super crazy. But.

[B]

But I feel like.

[A]

But it feels like everything is manageable. And I remember at the time it was like. Well, he could never eject out of the plane. That was the most. Really, like, that's bullshit, you know? Yeah, but it's. But yeah. No, I feel like there is something about it. And I think that movies like this really work. Like John Wick works. I think your movie works in that way too because you're in this house with these people and having these fight scenes and it's like. It feels like it's real.

[B]

It's so funny because, like, the movies that I always reference that are really good at this, right? Like, that, like. And Die Hard's always the touchstone for people because you're like. It was the first time that you're. And like, if. If people want to read a fucking awesome book and you probably read this, but the Last Action Heroes. Love. It is so good. And like. And it's that. It's that turn from One man army, you know, like, ripped as shit. Dude who, like, can't be hurt, you know, like, at all. Which I. I loved all those movies. Like. Yeah, like, but, like. But to go from that to Mel Gibson in. In Lethal Weapon who, like, wants to fucking kill himself. And like, these. These guys who have, like, darker past, but also, like, who are flawed, who are getting beat to shit, like, are wearing their arc on their body in terms of like, like, you know, like. And every. Every single one of the gags, even in Die Hard 2 of like, he needs to get from the sky skywalk, like, to get onto the Runway. He has to push that grate up.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Grate's crazy fucking heavy. And now a plane's gonna land on top of him. And, you know, it's. It's ludicrous. It's really. But you're like. Like, it's hard to lift something.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, like. And to go to that smallness. And the First Born identity has that where you're like. They're small. A man who has to, like, get through just using his wits and usually, like, losing a weapon or blah, blah. So he has to, like, with nothing get through. I remember that there's that sequence in. At the end of the Firstborn Identity where there's just a sniper and you're like, it's hard get past a sniper who's really good at his job sort of thing. And like that shit. True Romance is another one which is like a sort of a side tangent one. But like, but there's a smallness to that movie of like the shootout at the end. Like. Like there's always this threat of violence. And. And that was weirdly, True Romance is sort of a touchstone for McGruber because we didn't have that big of a budget for McGruber.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so you always wanted to feel like action is. There's a potential for action or a danger element that's going to happen, but you're not actually seeing that much action. So you have to be sparing with like the way you do things. And like there's that scene in the middle of True Romance that is you like, Christopher Walken is going to kill his dad. And it's like a, you know, it's amazing Quinn Tarantino dialogue. So I don't want to like, like, say like McIver at all, Tarantino's dialogue, but like, but it's a 1112 minute scene and you're like the threat of violence, one. You care about the character, right? Like, you care about both characters and they're fucking with each other and it's dangerous. Like. But you're like, you get away. Like the piece of information that happens at the end of the scene could have easily happened in the beginning. They just find a fucking post it on.

[A]

Exactly. Right? That's it. And it's like, it makes it. I know what you're talking about. That is like it to me, going back to even. I was talking about torture scenes and it, like when you go out of the world where you can't feel it as an audience member, I think it takes you out. Like, I always think about Danny Glover having that open wound in Lethal Weapon 1. They're pouring salt into an open wound.

[B]

It's like, yeah, it's.

[A]

It literally is like the, you know, it's the. It's the. It's the. The Maxim or whatever. And it's like. And. But you feel it. You're like, oh, God, that must fucking hurt. You know, and it's. It's like. And I think these movies sometimes have this ability where it's like, well, I don't know what's real anymore. I don't. I don't. I can't be like, ooh, that hurts. Because it's like he's already. I have never. I have no connection to Falling off a building, you know, you know, or. Or anything like that. Like, it doesn't. And I feel like.

[B]

No, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's choosing spectacle over human connection. And like. And you see it in like, Die Hard, like when he, like, shoots a fucking, you know, he rides his motorcycle into a helicopter and you're like, like, I don't care. I don't care about that. Like, it's like, neat looking. I'm glad I got to see it if I saw it. And I'm like. And like. But I wouldn't mind seeing that in like the water world, extravagant universe. It's fine to see it there.

[A]

Yeah, show me. But like, this is the funny thing. I knew that this franchise was a little bit doomed, and I've always been a big fan of these movies, but Kevin Smith was interviewing Bruce Willis, and it was on the set of Live Free or Die Hard. And it was like an EPK expert. And this is like, it's burned in my mind. Kevin Smith is like, you know, what do you think is like, why do people like Die Hard? And Bruce Willis is like, well, it's New Jersey sense of humor. I'm like, oh, no, no. New Jersey sense of humor is not why we like Die Hard. And then you can all of a sudden be like, oh. As he gets more and more successful, he's like, yeah, yeah, I'm this guy. I'm this guy. And he ceases to become that other guy. And it's a little bit. It gets more and more amped up, every single one. But the movies always start in a really good way. Like, Die Hard 3 has an amazing start. He's really beat down. It's an awesome thing. But you start to lose the thread of who these characters are, because while you had to top each other. And then it's like, just make another movie. And my friend who was on Die Hard, I think I can tell this story because it's fine. I'm not gonna say who it was, was so that Bruce Willis's go to was just like, more blood, more blood. And then would take the blood out of people's hands and just pour it all over himself. Like, he was just, like, just drenched in blood at all points. It's like, gotta, gotta just have it on there. And it was like, yeah, I don't know. It's just nothing now. It's just nothing.

[B]

Yeah. More is more is not always more. You know, I mean, like, like. And when it got into, like, it's so interesting that it, like the lesson learned from like, the last action heroes of like, people kind of want to see this grounded version rather than like, you know, superhuman muscle. And by the way, I got no problem with like, you know, like, like Fast and the Furious goes back to that of just like, you know, you land on a car and you're like, thank God a car was there. You're like, a car. Like, like, like, I would have killed anyone. And like. But like, you're like. I just. I. I love that logic too, because I'm just like, great. You're all in, right?

[A]

You're all.

[B]

At that point and it's consistent. It's consistently ridiculous. Ridiculous. It's. It's deviated from the first one in that, like, you know, that. That was like. That was basically Point Break with cars, right? And like, and like. And then. But when they get into this world where it's this in between where I'm like, sort of supposed to believe the original character, but now he's a superhero, that's when it loses it to me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, let's, like, you know me, like, like, because I don't. I do not mind. Like, like the, like the, The Fast and Furious franchise changed into like, now everyone's just like this gigantic gym membership dude, right?

[A]

Like, they're.

[B]

They're.

[A]

They're having a fight on a parking garage and they're like, their taking the building. Like, it's like, all right, yeah, sure. Like, it's fine. And I think you're. And there's two different things with that. I feel like you can have both. It's just like, but what is it? You can't start. I mean, I guess Fast and Furious did it, but this is so like. It's Everyman. He's an everyman. And when you cease to become an Everyman, he like.

[B]

I think that's why the Die Hard franchise is a bit disappointing because you watched something that you really liked and the reasons why you liked it is not necessarily because, I mean, everybody liked the New Jersey sense of humor.

[A]

We always loved that.

[B]

But you liked that this dude was having a hard day and was like, like deeply flawed and like he was gonna win. Like, and like, and. And, you know, and. And it was hard for him. It was like, like, you know, like taking out each one of these guys. And that was another touchdown for us, like, making McGregors one. We didn't have enough money, right? So, like, he's not going to be taking out, like, armies of guys necessarily. I mean, we have that one little, like, dumb shootout and da, da. Like, there's like, you know, like. But we're playing it all. All for. But like, you're like, these are my top guys. It's these five dudes. They all need to be methodically taken out sort of thing. And like, like, and. And, you know, granted, incredibly stupid version of. Of everything. But like, but, you know, these were the. The touchstones. And I. And honestly, most of it's too much money. You're just like, if you have this much money, then you're like, yeah, shoot. Like. Like you have motorcycles hitting helicopters.

[A]

Well, sure. I mean, and that's the thing. Like, Die Hard one not supposed to be successful. This one, obviously, they know. They know they have a lot to prove. And I think that, you know, it's just hard because I think that when you talk about aliens, it's like, that's what a sequel is. And I think that should be put on that level in the same way. Like, it. It pays off. Yes, it's dumb. It's like, it's got bigger and dumber, but at the same time, it's actually really well done. It's beautifully shot. It's got all the stuff. Character wise, they have to go bigger. They couldn't just put them in another. So I'm like, this really works. I think that. I don't know why. And it may just be in comparison to the first one. Even though this third one gets a lot more love than the second one, I feel like. But in rewatching it, and I knew every line of this. I've watched this so many times as a kid that I've watched it even more recently. But it was funny because I watched this with June, who never saw Die Hard, my wife. And we watched Die Hard 2, and she was like, oh, but it's different. I don't like that he's changed. Like, she was like. She really took it in real time.

[B]

She was like, I thought that was such a.

[A]

And I was like, okay, then we should maybe stop the franchise here for you. Like, but it was like, to watch her in real time goes. So when we watch the second one, she never wants to, like, watch the second one. And she was so upset.

[B]

Wait, which part. Which parts, like, did it for her? Like, because I am curious.

[A]

I think that. I think it's around. I think that you really liked it up until the crash of the. Of the. Of the first plane. And she's like, oh, yeah, that's it. You know, it's all working.

[B]

When they kill it, right?

[A]

And then I think. I think it's around the ejector seat. I think it's around, like. I think once you get to ejector seat, I think it's. You know, I think it may have just broke her. And I think what she really just missed was. Oh, I just like the character stuff. And I think that this movie does still have it. Like, he's got the little partnership with the guy who. Who's like, just. I guess he's like the tech guy of the tower who's like, you go fix it. You fix this code. You do this thing. He's like, hey, look, I figured it out. It's at the church, you know, But I don't think you're as grounded. You're not connected. And I think as much as you were to, like, Reginald Vel Johnson, I think that that's such a big part of the first movie. Anything else?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think some of the smallness of that is just what works about the first one, so. Well, I mean, I'll never. I'll never say this the first one, but it's more like. It's just impressive to have made something that, like, works and has. It has a lot of different little plot lines and things that like to. To cut to. And the fact that they all work. And it's not. Not surprising that it's d', Souza.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, is. Is. Yeah. But, like, I mean, it works the same career.

[A]

Yeah, it, like, it's. I'm very fine to be like, they're very different movies, but they both work. And I think that they are both really, really fun, just in different ways. And, yeah, there's nothing I'm cringing at in this. And that's what I think is great. I'm glad that we got a chance to talk about this and also just talk to you because I feel like it was a great. This has been the most fun to talk about these movies that I do think live in your head for a long time. This movie is. It was all there. I was like, oh, yeah, I remember this and this and this. And I remember as. Again, my other thing as a kid is like, I really just wanted to see more John McClane stuff. I wanted to see him uncomfortable on Nightline. And I think that that was such a great line. Like, pretty cool what you did over there, but you look pretty out of your league on. On Nightline. I was like, wow, like a slam. They also slam Willard Scott for no reason. Like, they call him like a porker like that porker Willard Scott. I'm like, jesus, why is Willard Scott taking strays like this old lady just slamming Willard Scott.

[B]

But that is really, it's, it's really, it's really funny to like think about that line on Nightline. Like that, that line being like, oh, they are taking into account that he has been put into a Hollywood world and like take him down of like, he's not that guy, right? Like you know me, like, like that. So they had enough wherewithal to be like, don't worry, don't worry.

[A]

Nobody gives a shit about like you, you. Like some people might know him and some people might not. Like, like they need to just because of course he would have been on TV.

[B]

TV.

[A]

But maybe not John McClane, the policeman

[B]

hero who saved the Nakatomi hostages. I read about you People magazine. You seemed a bit out of your league on Nightline.

[A]

I thought, hey Colonel, blow me. So Yorma, we can listen to your podcast which I love. The the Lonely Island Seth Meyers podcast which is so good. It is always.

[B]

And I love all of your podcasts.

[A]

So great.

[B]

Oh love seeing your, your wonderful face and hearing your voice, Paul. Hippie ki.

[A]

Yay motherfucker. Thank you Jorma. Over your dead body is on VOD right now. I know that pop stars had some limited runs celebrating its 10 year anniversary. And if you can't get enough Jorma, I mean. And how can you make sure you are checking out his podcast which is the Lonely island and Seth Meyers podcast. It is one of my favorite podcasts out there. Thank you once again to Jorma Taccone and you can follow him on social media media like we all do. By the way, did I mention that Unspooled now has brand new merch? That's right. Check out our merch store and continue this conversation about Die Hard 2 on our substack which is completely free. All right people, you're probably wondering Paul, what do you have next week? Well, we got a real treat for you. We are talking about a movie that is not only a classic but a favorite of the. That's right, 1979's the Muppet Movie. And we'll be talking with writer, director, showrunner Ben David Grabinski. He rebooted Are youe Afraid of the Dark. He co show ran Scott Pilgrim takes off on Netflix and his new film Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice is available right now on Disney Hulu. So I cannot wait to talk to Ben David about this film. He just saw it at the TCM festival with some of the cast. I mean, not the cast really, just Paul Williams, who talked about his process with Jim Henson. He brings those insights to us. So anyway, can't wait for that. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton music by Devin Bryant episode art by Kim Troxall show art by Lee Jamison and Social Media Social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Realm production. See you next week. Bye for now.

[B]

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