Jerry Maguire

Summary

Unspooled Podcast: Jerry Maguire (April 30, 2026)

Hosts: Paul Scheer & Amy Nicholson
Episode Theme: Dissecting the 30th-anniversary legacy, characters, structure, and cultural impact of Jerry Maguire (1996), evaluating why it endures and how it complicates familiar Hollywood narratives.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Paul Scheer and Amy Nicholson revisit Cameron Crowe’s Jerry Maguire for its 30th anniversary, exploring the film’s unique blend of sports drama, romantic comedy, and character study. They discuss the film’s place in history—its casting, structure, iconic scenes, and its complicated commentary on authenticity, ambition, and relationships in work and love. The episode dives deep into Jerry’s flawed humanity, Tom Cruise’s rare comedic turn, the cynicism beneath the film’s optimistic surface, and how Jerry Maguire critiques Hollywood and the agent-client dynamic.

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Key Discussion Points, Insights & Memorable Moments

1. Why Jerry Maguire?

• Anniversary Context:
  • The film’s 30th anniversary re-release is the perfect occasion to revisit Crowe’s iconic work.
  • Amy: "I have spent a lot of time thinking about Jerry Maguire because, of course, I wrote a book on Tom Cruise and have watched Jerry Maguire to the point they went from this is fine to oh wait, this is a masterpiece. It becomes a masterpiece to me more and more every single time I watch it." [01:51]

2. Casting: The Movie Star/Everyman Dilemma

• Origins & “What Ifs”:
  • Initial concept: Cameron Crowe envisioned Tom Hanks as Jerry (“Tom Hanks is that likable, funny guy ... He is an underdog. He’s a modern day Jack Lemmon.” [09:19])
  • Tom Cruise’s casting shifted the film’s energy; more suited for the driven, desperate edge of the agent.
• Budget Constraints: Cruise took $20 million, so the rest of the cast (Renee Zellweger, Cuba Gooding Jr., Jonathan Lipnicki) were virtual unknowns.
• Best Performances: Regina King as Marcy Tidwell called out as “the emotional backbone” and possible ‘shoulda-been’ Oscar winner. [16:55]

3. Legendary “What Ifs” and Audition Tales

• Paul’s failed Vanilla Sky audition for Cameron Crowe; Jamie Foxx blowing his audition for Rod Tidwell.
  • Paul: “It was me holding up a piece of paper and pointing to Tom Cruise and going, this one, this one. ... how did I not get that part?” [04:04]
  • Amy (on Jamie Foxx’s story): “He says, I know. I was taking a pause. I said, okay, yeah, I’m fucking this up.” [06:18]

4. Structure & Tone: An “Inside Out” Movie

• Jerry Maguire starts where most movies would end: with a big moral epiphany and resignation. Instead, the film explores what actually happens after a person has their “third act” realization—what now?
  • Amy: “Everything in this movie is inside out. Everything is like reshuffled. It starts with the ending of any other scene ... It’s the entire 80s movie ending.” [28:46]
  • The film is cyclical, not redemptive: “This might be one of the most cynical movies ever made.” [30:17]

5. Is Jerry Maguire a Good Person? Cruise's Most Honest Role?

• Paul and Amy debate whether the character is sincere, self-improving, or fundamentally unchanged— and whether that ambiguity is the point.
  • Paul: “Is this Tom Cruise character the most accurate version of who Tom Cruise actually is?” [22:21]
  • Amy: “He’s a jerk, right? He’s very self-invested, self-centered.” [24:49]
  • Paul: “He is on an island. He’s desperate to get any sense of self back ... I don’t know why ‘he can’t be alone’ didn’t sit perfectly right for me.” [27:13]
  • The “You complete me” scene is scrutinized—does Jerry actually change, or just perform change?
    • Amy: “This movie doesn’t believe that anybody can totally change for real. … The neural pathways are set, and that’s why it’s hard for people to change.” [36:13]

6. Cynicism vs. Romance: Does the Couple Last?

• Amy’s provocative take: Jerry and Dorothy are mismatched and doomed—but the movie is honest about it.
  • Amy: “This is a romantic comedy about two people who should not be together at all. … They’re not holding hands at the end. … It’s a tragedy to me ... about how two people can keep trying to make something work that isn’t supposed to work.” [32:18]
• Paul’s counter: The film gives Jerry a “first step” toward meaningful love. Maybe.
• Exhaustive rundown of the recurring “I love you” lines and how they lose meaning.

7. Show Me the Money: Iconic Culture and Awards

• The famous lines (“Show me the money”, “You complete me”, “Help me help you”, “You had me at hello”) and Oscar moments.
  • Cuba Gooding Jr.’s wild acceptance speech: “Thank you, Father God,” — both hosts reenact the frantic Oscar control booth, emphasizing the speech’s unforgettable energy. [15:04]
• Only one Oscar win: Best Supporting Actor for Cuba Gooding Jr.; Cruise has won Globes but never the Oscar (amusingly, wins Globes then gives them back). [16:23]

8. The Real-World Manifesto: Inspiration from Jeffrey Katzenberg

• Jerry’s “mission statement” is based on Katzenberg’s infamous Disney memo on corporate ethics and originality.
  • Amy: “He’s really like, we need to get out of the blockbuster business and just worry about making smart, creative new ideas instead of drilling gigantic franchises.” [45:37]
  • The idea is king—yet those ideals so often get lost.

9. Hollywood, Agents, and Transactional Relationships

• Paul reflects on his own agent/manager experiences.
• Amy: “There’s just that lack of loyalty even inside the office ... [after Jerry’s departure] they snap right back to work like it didn’t matter.” [63:20]
• The industry rewards insincerity and transactional bonds, not actual caring.

10. Quotability & Performance: Why the Film Endures

• Quick scenes highlighted for their wordplay and acting, e.g.:
  • The “Help me help you” locker room scene:
    • Paul: “God help me. Help me, Rod.”
    • Amy: “Help me help you. Help me help you. Help me help you.” [75:06]
  • Tom Cruise’s obsessively prepared performances, beyond method, almost supernatural: "He’d say, 'Oh, we’re gonna start at page 50.' He never carried a script. He had it in his head, and he could jump in at any point." [75:50]

11. Little Human Moments & Film Craft

• Credit is given to Cameron Crowe’s journalistic eye for “little moments” that feel real, not written for a screenplay.
  • Amy: “Made a movie out of little moments, moments that people would, you know, not feel worthy to put on film or interesting enough, and you turn it into this. These gems…” [67:29]
• The legacy of James L. Brooks’ collaboration, and the almost-casting of Billy Wilder as Dickie Fox (Jerry’s idol-mentor)—demonstrating the web of cinematic lineage. [85:00]

12. Cultural Afterlives: VHS Pyramids & Enduring Fandom

• The Everything is Terrible crew’s quest to build a VHS pyramid using Jerry Maguire tapes is discussed for its mix of love and mockery.
  • Amy: “It’s a movie that you love and you’re making fun of and you love and you’re making fun of kind of in equal measure.” [82:14]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Amy on her appreciation for the film:
  “This might be one of the most cynical movies ever made.” [30:17]

• Paul on the Cruise persona:
  “Is this Tom Cruise character the most accurate version of who Tom Cruise actually is?” [22:21]

• On ‘You complete me’:
  Amy: “I do think he genuinely thinks he means it. ... Right before that big scene, Cameron Crowe’s like, listen, man, neurons are neurons. Jerry Maguire is gonna stay Jerry Maguire.” [36:46]

• Paul on Regina King:
  “If anyone should have won an award for this film, it should have been Regina King. I mean, she is, she’s amazing, amazing in this. … She is, I think, such an emotional backbone that this movie needs in a major way ... she gives, I think, you know, pound for pound, the best performance in this film.” [16:55]

• Amy on the ending's ambiguity:
  “It’s not a Hollywood message. ... It’s like, fuck you for making me cry. ... This is not a perfect story. It’s not a Hollywood movie. It’s a movie about someone awkwardly trying and failing. And success is built out of failure.” [83:20]

• Paul on the industry:
  “I think that there is a slight distance ... how quickly you can lose yourself and that idealism and that want to do things in a way that is true to who you are.” [86:22]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & lists context: [00:40–01:01]
• Jerry Maguire’s 30th anniversary context: [01:01–02:09]
• Jerry Maguire’s origins, structure, and original casting: [08:19–11:03]
• Casting (Cuba, Regina, Jay Mohr, Zellweger, Lipnicki): [11:54–12:59]
• Oscar legacy & Cuba’s awards speech: [14:06–16:21]
• Regina King tribute: [16:55–18:38]
• Cruise’s performance, “is this the real Tom Cruise?” [22:12–27:13]
• Discussion on character structure, flaws, and change: [27:13–36:46]
• Cynicism, romance, and the lasting relationship debate: [32:18–39:36]
• Jerry’s mission statement & Katzenberg memo: [43:15–47:54]
• Humanity in business/agent relationships: [60:40–64:05]
• Dialogues & iconic line highlights: [75:06–76:48]
• On little moments & Crowe’s craft: [66:44–68:05]
• Enduring fandom & VHS pyramid story: [82:14–83:01]
• Billy Wilder, the Dickie Fox cameo, and The Apartment influence: [85:00–86:03]
• Wrap-up and next episode tease (Walter Mitty): [89:15–90:06]

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Final Reflections

• Jerry Maguire is reasserted as a film about failure, transactional work/life relationships, the search for authenticity, and emotional honesty against a cynical, performative world.
• Its “messiness”—the unresolved romance, the ambiguous personal growth, and the lack of a true fairy-tale ending—is not a flaw, but its greatest strength.
• The hosts agree: Its endurance owes to Crowe’s and Brooks’ willingness to dive deep into awkward, bittersweet truth—even when we want feel-good affirmation.

Next Episode Preview

• Film: The Secret Life of Walter Mitty (Ben Stiller)
• Reason: Continuing the theme of work/life and romantic/meaningful self-discovery films.

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For further reading and clips:
The hosts' Substack, “Before You Watch,” will feature bonus material on Jerry Maguire, including the control-room coverage of Cuba Gooding Jr’s Oscar moment and more.

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“Help me help you. Help me help you.” [75:06] – The spirit and struggle of Jerry Maguire in a nutshell, and a perfect motto for this heartfelt, ironic, ever-relevant deep-dive.

Transcript

[Amy Nicholson]

We live in a cynical world. A cynical world. And we work in a business of tough competitors. I love you, you complete. Hello everyone and welcome to Unspooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed EMS, we have

[Amy Nicholson]

covered the AFI top 100 and now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterboxd top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb top 250 and the New York Times 1000 essential films.

[Paul Scheer]

Is today's film on one of those lists? We will find out very shortly. But the reason I'll tell you later. But yes, ooh, we'll tell you which one in just a second. But the reason why we're doing this movie this week is because Jerry Maguire is celebrating its 30th anniversary. It was recently re released into theaters and it fits so nicely into our conversation that we had in our last episode about the Devil Wears Prada and that kind of work. Life Balance I am Paul Scheer. I'm an actor, writer and director, and I have vowed never to meet Cameron Crowe because he holds such a spot in my, like, brain as a genius who made these movies that I absolutely love that I feel like any interaction with him would sully that now. Did I audition for Cameron Crowe? Yes, but I don't consider that technically a meeting.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hi, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for the Los Angeles Times. I have spent a lot of time thinking about Jerry Maguire because of course I wrote a book on Tom Cruise and have watched Jerry Maguire to the point they went from this is fine to oh wait, this is a masterpiece. It becomes a masterpiece to me more and more every single time I watch it.

[Paul Scheer]

I was watching Jerry Maguire that much, and I wasn't writing a book about Tom Cruise.

[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

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[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

I have so many questions for you because I know that you really know this movie well, but now I'm also having my. My flashback to auditioning for Cameron Crowe, which is something I have not thought about until that very moment where I just said that.

[Amy Nicholson]

What movie was it?

[Paul Scheer]

Vanilla Sky. Oh, really?

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, that's a Baby Paul.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, that's a Baby Paul. And. And the part that I was auditioning for was like one of Tom Cruise's like, office mates. And, and I went in and I got a call back and I canceled my trip to LA to go visit my girlfriend who was like out here shooting at the time because I got a call back for Cameron Crowe. I did not get the part. But what I was auditioning with, and it was such an odd audition because again, I got a call back and it was me holding up a piece of paper and pointing to Tom Cruise and going, this one, this one. And then like trying to read his reaction. And when you watch the movie, it's like the opening sequence of the film. Tom Cruise is walking by like a, a glass encased office and a guy just gets up and is like, yeah, yeah. And I, I'm like. And then I got more angry, like, how did I not get that part? You called me back and I didn't get that. I was so angry at it. I was like, what could I have done wrong? You called, you called me in because you liked me. Like, and this is just a guy holding a sheet of paper. Anyway, fuck that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Maybe you held it crooked, man. Maybe you crumpled it. But it didn't mess with me. They wanted it like vertical and you held it horizontal.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, it messed with me in that sense where you're like, what did I do wrong? How did I mess that up? And that's the beginning of realizing that a lot of decisions in casting come down to things that you can't ever fully articulate or know the reason why. I don't even know if there is a reason why. Like, who knows?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, here. Maybe this will make you feel better. This is Jamie Foxx explaining why he did not get the Koopa Gooding Jr. Part in Jerry Maguire.

[Paul Scheer]

I kept looking at him. Cause, like, imagine. Imagine you're from Texas and you've done a little bit of shit, but you ain't seen no real fucking stars, right? So I'm just sitting there watching it, and we get to reading, right? And we're reading.

[Amy Nicholson]

We're reading how.

[Paul Scheer]

And as I'm reading, you know, he does a dramatic pause, you know, but that's his thing. Yeah, I fucking think he lost his place.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're gonna help me.

[Paul Scheer]

So I take. I take the script. No, we right here. Show me the money.

[Amy Nicholson]

And then you say you.

[Paul Scheer]

He says, I know. I was taking a pause. I said, okay, yeah, I'm fucking this up.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm fucking this on up. So I blew it.

[Paul Scheer]

But I blew it. Oh, man. One of my favorite bits. I'm buddies with Jerry o', Connell, and we had done a movie together. And one of my favorite bits with him is whenever people ask him, like, what is he doing in town? He will say, oh, we're shooting Jerry Maguire, too. And people take it. People take it with like, oh, great. And it is the funniest answer. And it makes so much sense. They don't know what you're shooting. When you ask them, like, oh, what are you shooting? Just, like, they won't know. It's not out. It's not a thing. So just say Jerry Maguire, too. Uh, man, I was loving it.

[Amy Nicholson]

But he knows what happens to his character. According to lore, if there was a Jerry Maguire, too.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, really?

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, yeah. ESPN did a thing for Jerry Maguire's, I think, 20th anniversary, where they made fake documentaries, catching people up on what happened to, like, oh, wow. Yeah. Just to Kush and to Rod Tidwell and, you know, they get some revenge on Kush. Here's what they say.

[Paul Scheer]

Today, 20 years after he took those fateful steps across the stage at Radio City Music Hall, Kush still has big ambitions. I dream of a future where nobody has even heard of athlete's foot, not because it's obscure, but because it's been eradicated. A future where my grandkids can walk the earth without ever feeling the burden that I carried.

[Amy Nicholson]

McGuire must have influenced my son more than I realized.

[Paul Scheer]

He's.

[Amy Nicholson]

He's Become an actual humanitarian. And he really does love those little bastards. Yes. The documentary says that Kush had to drop out of the NFL fast because he had a toxic case of athlete's foot. But he did dedicate his life to curing athlete's foot for children.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow. Amazing. All right, let's get into this movie. There's so much I want to say. There's so many questions I have for you. I, um. So the year is 1996, and Cameron Crowe has a picture in his head given to him by one of his filmmaking idols, James L. Brooks, the director of Broadcast News. It's a photograph of a football player and his agent. And Brooks says, I think there's a story here.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And Cameron Crow agrees, because things are changing in professional sports in the early 90s. I mean, for one, free agency has just become a thing in the NFL. That's really fascinating. How's that going to change? So he starts writing the script about an asshole agent who has this epiphany that his job is corrupt. He gives up everything, loses everything, and then he panics and he tries to climb back to the pinnacle of success alongside his assistant, a single mother named Dorothy, who has this gigantic crush on him. In short, it is about a guy who loses and gains and loses and gains his soul. And Cameron knows exactly who he wants to star. Tom Hanks.

[Paul Scheer]

What a mistake that would have been, Amy, Because Tom Hanks is that likable, funny guy. He is an underdog. He's a modern day, or at least at that point, a modern day Jack Lemmon. You know, it's like.

[Amy Nicholson]

Which is what he's kind of wanting in the first draft.

[Paul Scheer]

And I don't know if that story is as interesting, you know, if he was going for something, I don't know, like the Apartment, which is a movie that we did here on the show about a guy who works in a giant insurance company and isn't really sure that his work has any meaning. I mean, that's definitely a way to go. But I think this movie is not that. And I'm glad it isn't.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I mean, it was. I think it was that. I think there's very much a vestigial element of the Apartment in this movie. Like, you can hear it in the script, you know, I mean, from the very first line of the film, they're taking the Apartment's idea of how to open this. Let's just play that. Play the Apartment opening. So you're not wrong. That's kind of the root of it. Another film that we did when you were gone last summer. We did the Sweet Smell of Success with beloved Sean Fennesee from the Ringer. Fantastic movie. Tony Curtis, mean agent. That's also a little bit in here. And what's gonna be in here is Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks is like, yeah, I'll be your Jack Lemmon. I'll make this film. But Cameron, who we have also talked about ages ago on the show when we did our episode on Fast Times at Ridgemont High, where he was a journalist who wrote this article that then became a movie, Cameron is still a journalist at heart in this period. He's directed the movie say Anything in Singles by now, but. But that journalist part of him gets him so much into the research of this film, into contracts and shoe deals, that he spends three and a half years writing the script, during which Tom Hanks wins two Oscars for Philadelphia and Forrest Gump, and decides, I'm not going to do this agent movie. I want to direct.

[Paul Scheer]

So now Cameron is a little bit stuck. You know, he needs a new star to play his agent, and he thinks of an actor with a very different vibe. Tom Cruise. Could Tom Cruise be Jerry Maguire now? It's kind of a better fit because, you know, I feel like Tom Cruise has an energy of what we imagine agents to be. And fittingly, all sorts of Hollywood agents want their clients to be Jerry Maguire. So they start calling up Cameron and going like, don't you know what? Tom Cruise will not do this. Tom Cruise will never play a loser, but Tom Cruise, he's gonna zig when you think he's gonna zag. He's like, I wanna work with Cameron Crowe. And he even volunteers to test for the part so they can make sure it's actually a good fit.

[Amy Nicholson]

And because Tom Cruise's Salary takes up $20 million of the film's $50 million budget, the rest of the movie has to be cast for pretty cheap. And also, I think there's a psychology. If we cast, like, unknown Faces, maybe Tom Cruise won't look so much like Tom Cruise in this movie. It'll make the world seem more believable. So Jerry Maguire, his love interest, his assistant Dorothy, they cast this unknown blonde from Texas named Renelli Zellweger. She has been in a Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie and, like, a bit part in Dazed and Confused for her young son, Ray. They cast a kid from a McDonald's commercial, Jonathan Lipnicki. And then Jerry Maguire's main client, Rod Tidwell. That is Cuba Gooding Jr. Who has done Boys in the Hood, Judgment Night, but he has not become gigantic star, late 90s Cuba Gooding Jr. And I

[Paul Scheer]

also have to say, one of my favorite performances in this entire film is Regina King, who plays Rod's wife, Marcy. And also Bonnie Hunt, who is Dorothy's sister, Laurel. And of course, to round out this picture, we have Jay Moore as the rival agent Bob Sugar.

[Amy Nicholson]

Now, I have a question for you.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

How much do you think Jay Moore, playing an evil sports agent, ultimately marrying Jeannie Buss, boss family of the Lakers? How much do you think they quote this movie to each other all the time.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, no, Amy, I don't. I mean, you think that he's brought this character forward? Cause I was gonna say, oh, my God. You know, if anything, I think that Bob Sugar really gets kind of developed. Do you remember that Fox show action?

[Amy Nicholson]

No.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, it was like this, like, inside baseball Hollywood show on Fox with Jay Moore as, like, his name was Peter Dragon and he was a Hollywood producer. And it was very much like if Fox tried to do Larry Sanders. And I always think about that. I loved it. It was like a ruthless dick movie producer, really. I don't know if it's good, but I loved it when it was on.

[Amy Nicholson]

There is no way on earth that when Jay Moore goes out for brunch with Jeanie Buss that they don't go like, oh, God, show me the coffee. Like, they're just no big.

[Paul Scheer]

I guarantee you they definitely don't do that. Even as an anti Laker fan, or I should say, not a Laker fan. And as much as I'd love to see them do that. Cause I think it's so lame. I don't even think they would do it. But here's the thing. Jerry Maguire puts together this stellar cast, this great script, this giant movie star, and guess what? Yeah, it's a major hit. It's released December 12, 1996, makes 273 million. It's nominated for five Oscars, including Picture script, editing, best actor for Tom Cruise, and it loses all four of those. But it does win supporting actor for Cuba Gooding Jr. Who gives a speech so excited and epic that it basically is exactly like his character. Uh, it's. I mean, it. It's. You know what? I think one of the best ways to watch it is through the eyes of the Oscar broadcast control booth with. Which is like, this is going too long. No, no, wait. It's incredible. We have to let him keep going.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hallelujah.

[Paul Scheer]

Thank you, Father God, for put me through what you put me through. But I'm here and I'm music, music.

[Amy Nicholson]

I just want to.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, here we go. Okay, the studio.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love you and Tom Cruz.

[Paul Scheer]

I love you, brother.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love you, man.

[Paul Scheer]

Ready, ready 11.

[Amy Nicholson]

11. Keep it playing.

[Paul Scheer]

Ready three.

[Amy Nicholson]

Three. Deep at play. Keep it playing.

[Paul Scheer]

Everybody involved with the movie.

[Amy Nicholson]

Ready 12. 12. Ready 13. 13. Ready of 10. 10. Ready 2, 2. Ready 3. 3. Ready 12. 12. Ready 88. 4 minute all 8, 9. 4 minute all in 3, 9, 9, 3. 2, 2, 3. Time. We win. Deal. Ready three, three. Ready six. Six. And stand by. Announce. And announce. What a opening.

[Paul Scheer]

Phenomenal.

[Amy Nicholson]

What a opening, man. I love that. For the record, as you know, a studier of Tom Cruise. This is, I believe, the third time that Tom Cruise is in a movie where his co star gets the Oscar win and he does not, alas, continues to happen to him. And for the record as well, he did win the Golden Globe for Jerry Maguire. Tom Cruise did. He has been nominated for three Oscars. He's lost all three times, but each one of those three times he ended up winning the Golden Globe. But then he also gave back his Golden Globe when everybody was mad at them a couple of years ago.

[Paul Scheer]

Look at that. Tom Cruise. You know, I gotta say, if anyone should have won an award for this film, it should have been Regina King. I mean, she is, she's amazing, amazing in this. And she is, I think, such an emotional backbone that this movie needs in a major way that I know that there's so much talk about, you know, show me the money. I think Tom Cruise is fantastic in it, but she gives, I think, you know, just pound for pound, the best performance in this film.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't think I disagree with you. I think every performance in here is amazing. But she just comes out and is like, ka boom. She's fantastic. I mean, she has less screen time than everybody else and she dominates everything. She's in.

[Paul Scheer]

You watch the movie really through her eyes because she can do so much that these other characters can't because they are a little bit emotionally crippled. And she has such a good sense of herself as a human. Like she is that missing element, you know, that I think kind of connects all these characters. Like every character wants a piece of her in, you know, in the way that they want to be viewed in the world. I just love that performance.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah, she's the person who has the love and knows the money, you know, marketing major in college. And I think she just gets it, you know, let's just play a little bit of her right here.

[Paul Scheer]

This is what you're gonna do. This is what you're gonna do.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're gonna reject that shitty contract. You're gonna play out your existing shitty contract, and you're gonna go be a free agent next year. Come on. Hey. Hey, baby. This is us. You and me. We determine our worth. Baby, you are a strong, proud, surviving, splendid black man.

[Paul Scheer]

Mercy,

[Amy Nicholson]

you're the shit. So, yes, we are 1,000% in agreement about a Regina Oscar that did not come to exist. And also, this film is on The New York Times. 1000 essential films.

[Paul Scheer]

Boom. Spring is upon us. That means it's time for shorts. It also means it is time for a linen pant. Oh, a linen pant. Fellas, get yourself a nice linen pant. Lately, I've been a lot more intentional about what I wear day to day. I now have a partner to help me get dressed, and that partner is Quince. All right? They give you fabrics that feel elevated, fits that are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it. Now, I love Quince because what they do is they use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and ultra soft denim. And they price at 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship. Now, I'll tell you, I just got some great shorts like this drawstring short from Quince that I love, but these linen pants are just sealing the deal. I love it because it's a way to be casual but a little bit dressed up. Maybe if you go on vacation, you go to the beach or whatever you might need, get a linen pant in your rotation and get that linen pant at Quint's. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com unspooled for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com unspooled for Free Shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com unspooled

[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

unschooled. Now here's what I'm gonna say. Rewatching this film movie I've watched many times, I realized something. First of all, I want more of this Tom Cruise. This is a Tom Cruise I haven't seen in such a long time.

[Amy Nicholson]

A comedic Tom Cruise, a romantic Tom Cruise. He's really almost never funny or human or comedic. And he gets. Or romantic and he gets to do all of that here.

[Paul Scheer]

All right, so this is my question for you, Amy. Is this Tom Cruise character the most accurate version of who Tom Cruise actually is? Because watching it, there are all these things that he does and there are these little moments, I think, right in the beginning of the film, like somebody drops some papers on the ground and he goes, hey, I know you. You're Jeannie. You work in this department. You have that little thing on your desk. Great helping out, right? He, he is that guy. Everybody I've ever talked to says, oh, Tom Cruise will never forget a name, knows exactly what you did and is very present with you. And I feel like that energy that you're watching, that energy of him as an agent, that guy who flies to, you know, the Kush's house, like, this is Tom Cruise in desperation mode. And we're trying and we're seeing his charms not working. I feel like what he was able to do is take himself as a model and then go, what if none of it connected? And my favorite scene in the entire film is him so psyched that he signed Kush that he's trying to sing in the car and he doesn't know any lyrics of the songs. And he keeps on changing it to kind of get in that vibe. And I'm like, this is. This is Tom Cruise. Like, this is this guy trying to have this control, be this smooth guy. And there are these little fractures in him, and I think it makes his performance here so vulnerable. Good. Funny. But just watching it and everything I know about Tom Cruise now from the limited, you know, real world information. I'm like, this is Tom Cruise.

[Amy Nicholson]

Just let her know.

[Paul Scheer]

Just call me angel of the morning

[Amy Nicholson]

she had faith and she had believe

[Paul Scheer]

Breaking her heart I'm free.

[Amy Nicholson]

Free falling yeah, I'm free. I think for half of this performance. You are exactly right. I really do. Because part of what I find fascinating about Jerry Maguire is he's a jerk, right? Like, he's a complete jerk. He's very self, like, invested, self centered.

[Paul Scheer]

Is he though? We don't see that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, we do a little bit. We do a little bit. Like, the part that always pops out to me is when he's sitting on the couch with Jonathan Lipnicki and he's like talking about his own self and his own feelings. And Jonathan Lipnicki is like, my dad died. And he's like, uh huh, whatever. We're talking about me, kid. Like here. My daddy worked for United Way for 38 years. You know what he said when he retired? He said, I wish they'd given me a more comfortable chair. Wait, wait, wait years, he said, Then my dad died, my mom took me to the zoo and I love. Oh, wait, wait. I want to tell you more about my dad. No, let's go to the zoo. Okay, okay. I'm nogging you to be right. But I don't know, it's just my whole life I've been trying to talk. I mean, really talk, but no one wants to listen to me. You know that feeling? They just look at you. They just. Let's go right now. Let's go to the zoo, Ray. The zoo. You know, fucking zoo's closed, right? So there you see a little bit of the narcissism. But he is not, I will say, a true narcissist. And he's not a sociopath. Because if he was a real narcissist, if Jerry Maguire was like completely on that end of the psychological spectrum, he would not care what people think of him. He would not. He would immediately think that he's right about everything and he wouldn't feel so vulnerable. Like, this character cares a lot about what other people think of him. In fact, you could kind of say like, the only way he Knows his worth is how other people think of him. Right. Like he uses other people as a reflection and that I think. Actually, I think there is a little bit of Tom Cruise in there. Because when Tom Cruise has his meltdown 10 years from this, he still has been trying to get that love back. Like, I think you see the post, Tom Cruise flailing post 2005, that seems very like Jerry Maguire to me, too. I have to get on top. I have to make the number one movie of the year just to prove that I didn't lose it.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that there's something really interesting that the movie does, which I. Look, I really love this movie, and I think it's structurally a little bit weird. And one of the weirdest moments in the film is convincing you that he is a flawed character. And where they really lean on that is in this bachelor party montage, right? Where all these women that he has, I mean, fucked. Right. I mean, that's kind of what it is. And it's an enormous amount of women that. That they've all tracked down who all willingly are participating in this, which is also another odd thing. But all that aside, they all say this idea. They all say this defining trait of Jerry Maguire is he can't be alone. He is someone who can't be alone. And I don't know if that is the thing that I take away from Jerry Maguire. Like, I feel like the movie kind of puts that on a pedestal, and it gives him a moment of like, huh? But I don't get that that's what the movie is. Yes, that I think, facilitates his gravitation to Renee Zellweger. But I also feel like he's alone. He is on an island. He's desperate to get any sense of self back. I don't know why he can't be alone. Didn't sit perfectly right for me. I don't know if it was.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, I agree.

[Paul Scheer]

It doesn't like a simplification or something. I don't know. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, what I like about that video is really just that the women are also saying that he says I love you all the time and doesn't mean it too like that. He's insincere. But the alone part. I'm with you. Yeah. I mean, I feel like he always wants to be in motion. He always wants to be doing something. But also maybe part of why it doesn't hit is because this is a movie that's not gonna cure that. Like, there's no moment at the end where he's like, and now I can be alone. Because that's not what this movie does. This movie structurally. This movie structurally is insane. Everything in this movie is inside out. Everything is like reshuffled. It starts with the ending of any other scene in any other, like, Tom Cruise movie where he's like, I'm the slick guy and I'm gonna have this epiphany that my life has no meaning and I'm going to come to Jesus and give that big speech and I'm gonna get the. It's the entire 80s movie ending.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. They start the movie in the end of the second act and then it's like, well, what's next? And that's kind of the genius part of the structure of this. But also at the same time, it is following a first act structure in the sense that we are seeing this person who is living a life. Then it hits an obstacle. I guess it can kind of be both in a way. I guess the first act and the third act are mirrors of each other, but it's a third act failure which also is our first act obstacle. Right. I mean, I don't know.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think it's cyclical. Like, to me, what I had to realize about Jerry Maguire in order to go from thinking this movie was, like, fun but ridiculous to loving this movie is to realize that this might be one of the most cynical movies ever made. Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

All right. Talk about that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Because this movie. Wait, let me just ask you this open ended. What do you think happens to him and Renee at the end of this film?

[Paul Scheer]

It's an interesting question. I don't think I've given it much thought. Right. Because there's this moment where at the end, I feel like what he realizes is he cares about people, people over profit. Right. There's a full connection. And if you're gonna look at the movie in like, just at its base level, that's where the movie starts. In the hospital with the hockey player. And that's where the movie ends. I think. To your point, he will stay with Renee Zellweger. And I almost feel like she will change more than he will change because I don't think he is fully changed. He might do business differently, but I don't know. Well, you know what? I'm not going to feed into it. I would think that they live happily ever after because his want is to go home to her. His want is, I can't be happy unless I share this moment with you. So, no, I'm not going to even allow myself to go down that Path. I'm going to say that he does realize that he can get paid or recognition for actually giving a shit. And now he can then put his business in that same pod, right? Whereas before, he didn't have to give a shit and he could have a business. And now he was rewarded for having it, and he's rewarded for sticking with Rene. And I think that now he stays in that path.

[Amy Nicholson]

Abba, see, one of his strengths that he knows is his strength, is that once he commits to something, he sticks, right? That's part of why she leaves him in the middle, right? Because he's like, he's going to commit to this. He's going to stick to this. And they're going to waste a decade of their life being a mismatched couple. I think this is a romantic comedy about two people who should not be together at all. And they make it work several times, and they make it work again at the end. And it's, to me, terrible. They're not holding hands at the end. They're both holding hands with Jonathan Lipnicki. He's in the middle. Like, it's always, I think, for Tom Cruise, about his affection for Jonathan Lipnicki and wanting to be around this boy way more than her. Like, when they break up, he's crying over Jonathan Lipnicki's bed like he's not thinking about her. And so it's a tragedy to me, this movie, because it's, like, about how two people can keep trying to make something work that isn't supposed to work. I don't think he's ever gonna fully love Renee Zellweger, but I think they're gonna be okay. You know, it's an interesting. It's a movie where he says, I love you all the time and never means it, where everybody says, I love you all the time. Jane Moore tells him he loves him all the time. So it's a movie that starts with a gigantic speech that he immediately takes back and ends with a gigantic speech that he just hasn't taken back yet.

[Paul Scheer]

You see, the difference that I see in that is that Renee Zellweger isn't holding him accountable for being that person. She's not like, you told me you love me. You told me this. She has really smartly been like, you know what? I made a mistake. We made a mistake. Let's back out of this. Let's go. And he keeps on coming back in, and I feel like he does have the out there. He does have the ability to walk away, but he wants to Come back. I mean, I think a more cynical choice is they never, you know, they never get there. They, like, he doesn't go back to her, but she's happy for him that he's achieved this success. I mean, look, it's. It's complicated too, because it's like he. You're right. Like, I think that she's wrapped up in so much. Like, they are partners, they're lovers, like he has no one else. She's seen him through the bad side of himself and still likes him. But I do think that this movie doesn't. But I do think this movie doesn't really interrogate, like, what his change is. Right. Like, his change is at the beginning. And I guess we're slowly getting more and more to it. I don't know. Because he really doesn't. I don't know, does he change? I guess if you would, you would say that the moment where he's waiting for, you know, Tidwell to get up and when he calls Regina, you know, and tells her, like, he's in charge and he's taking care of it, I mean, that just seems human to me. And I don't think that we've seen him be not human enough to register that as a giant change.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I think he becomes more human. Like. I mean, that first scene where that little kid who I think grows up to be like Drake Bell, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That little kid is like, fuck you and gives him the finger, which Tom Cruise was like, that's the first thing we shot. And that kid was so excited to say, fuck you and give me the finger. He at least goes from being on the phone saying bland things about how the guy's hockey dad is gonna be okay to like, you know, genuinely caring about Rod. I think he. I don't think that Jerry Maguire is a horrible person, but I do think that this movie doesn't believe that anybody can totally change for real. And that, like, having this life changing epiphany and becoming a different human being does not happen. And I think to kind of really hammer it home in that big scene right at the end, the big speech, the you complete me, which I find really sweet, and I tear up because I think he genuinely means it.

[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

I do think he genuinely thinks he means it. There's a conversation happening in that room right before he barges in. And this is what one of the women on the couch is saying. Yeah, I think that the problem is, you know, Alice, you were saying earlier something about the biorhythms I was saying that the neural pathways are set, and that's why it's hard for people to change. That's why behavior doesn't change very often. Yeah. Right before that big scene, Cameron Crowe's like, listen, man, neurons are neurons. Jerry Maguire is gonna stay Jerry Maguire.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, but that's a really shitty way.

[Amy Nicholson]

But I respect that, though, right? I mean, I guess it makes this movie so screwed up. Like, I love how screwed up this movie is in that way. It's like, yeah, this is just. He can become a better version of this.

[Paul Scheer]

So then we are all Renee Zellweger, Right. Like, those women in the room, they fall for it. And Renee Zellweger falls for it. And I think what you're saying is Jerry Maguire falls for it. Falls for it, Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

So it's like this idea that we all can see past. He's not even intentionally lying. And maybe that's the. I mean, it's tricky, right? It's a hard thing. Cause it's like, well, he's not perfectly paired with Kelly Preston, also fantastic in this movie.

[Amy Nicholson]

Very funny.

[Paul Scheer]

I think that where this movie is cynical for me is it's a movie about a mission statement about caring for people. But yet, what is the. The slogan? The most, you know, quotable line, show me the money. Right. That the movie is about.

[Amy Nicholson]

Quran doesn't take off as much as show me the money.

[Paul Scheer]

No, it's like, get me paid. And that's what the movie really ends with, is that he gets the guy paid. So the movie is like, that's where it's a little bit interesting. It's like, it is all about the money. Right. But I guess the fine line the movie is showing is like, you can get the money and be a good human at the same time.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Or if you don't show people who you really are, you also can't get the money necessarily, the way that Larad has to do. He has to show people his vulnerability and his human side and the charisma to get the fans to love him, to get the money.

[Paul Scheer]

And I love that. And I love that Rod and Jerry can have this conversation where Rod essentially is like, hey,

[Amy Nicholson]

you.

[Paul Scheer]

You gotta get out of this relationship. Like, and. And they really go head to head. Like, they. They touch each other's nerves. And that's the moment where Jerry says, like, you wanna get paid? You gotta be like this. And Rod's like, you wanna get love, you have to be like this. And Jerry doesn't listen to Rod. Rod does listen to Jerry. And then I do think it flips a little bit, but I agree with you. I see what you're saying. I don't know how intentional the movie is trying to do that, though. I think that the movie is in love with love.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh. I think the movie knows very well what it's doing. I mean, the whole movie is almost like this Cassandra thing, where every step that Dorothy and Jerry take together, you're just looking at the other people in the room who are like, uh, this is a bad idea. You know, her sister is so freaked out from the beginning. She. When he proposes to her, the sister's outside being like, don't do it. Don't do it.

[Paul Scheer]

Don't do it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Don't do it. Wait. Wait a second. No, no, wait. Oh, God. I know a way we can save. Save on medical and rent. No, don't. Listen, what if we stayed together? Wouldn't we? What if we got married? If I said that, would you stay? No, no, don't do that. Don't say that unless. Well, say it if you want to. Kuba Gooding Jr. He knows. Oh, one of the scenes that breaks my heart is when they get married anyways, and then they're watching the video together, and everybody can see in the video that Jerry is miserable. And, like, Kuba's just that. Oh, the hurt in his face. And he tries to, like, bring Jerry and Dorothy together and make them, like, hug. Oh, it's so sad. Because really, what this movie, I think, kind of gets into is that a lot of the times, the way we depict romance in films is either, like, the greatest romance or a horrible person. And I like that. Actually, what this movie has in common with Devil Wears Prada is it's not like Adrian Grenier sucks. It's just that they shouldn't be together, that they're not in the right vibe. And, like, it's not that either of Jerry Maguire necessarily sucks as he is, and Dorothy's the best, but they just shouldn't be together.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, this is what I will say that Cameron Crowe might disagree with you because, you know, on the 20th anniversary, he talked about his vision for this end scene was about Jerry learning to love well rather than just win. And so he finally shows up emotionally for Dorothy in that last scene. It's not just a temporary high where throughout the film, I think in these moments of, I've lost everything, let me hook up with you, it'll give me something. And I think in that moment where they do have sex, like, you get that other version of Jerry. That slicker version of Jerry. And I feel like Cameron Crowe, based on his comments, is like, this is a movie where he's starting to get it right. He is like, it's. And maybe that's the first as a movie that starts in the third act. Maybe this is the first act of that movie. Right? They have a shot now because it's not going to her because he needs her. It's because he wants to. He's learning what love is. And that goes back to that original video montage where it's like he says, I love you, I love you, I love you. But he never means it. Maybe this is. And that. That I buy that bookend.

[Amy Nicholson]

But I. You complete me, really, is that he can't be alone thing. You complete me as I need somebody to fill me up. I mean, I want to believe. I believe he believes it. And I want to believe that maybe they could make it work. But I think it's really interesting that

[Paul Scheer]

one of the assholes have to start somewhere.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah. Some of the first reactions to Jerry Maguire, at the very early test screenings, one couple proposed. At the very first test screening, another couple left and immediately broke up. Because they're like, you know what? We might get along, but we're not this. Cause you. There's just no way. You can look at Renee Zellweger and Tom Cruise together in this movie and then go look at Cuba Gooding Jr. And Regina and not be like, well, they're never gonna have that, man.

[Paul Scheer]

And that scene is so beautiful. Like when they're having dinner together, right? When Regina gets. Goes into labor, like. And they're trying to mimic them. Like, there's so many great things about being this awkward couple because they are thrust into this. They are strangers who are then pushed together. And, you know, she says it. The movie says it. Like he, you know, goes to her because there's no one else around. I'm just.

[Amy Nicholson]

No one else will come with him except Ruffish.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, I do wanted to step back and talk a little bit more general about the film too, because we could debate the ending for a very long time. The thing that I was fascinated by and I didn't know about was this idea of Jerry Maguire writing a manifesto was based on a very famous manifesto written by Jeffrey Katzenberg. Now, it was written in 1991, and it was titled the World is Changing. Some Thoughts on Our Business. And he sent this out to the entire company at Disney, to Michael Eisner, Frank Wells, Rich Frank, Dick Cook. Like, all the Big people at Disney. I just want to read you a little bit of the opening of it. Oh, I'm excited the first little. Because it is 29 pages.

[Amy Nicholson]

And as context, he's sending us to everybody right after Dick Tracy collapses.

[Paul Scheer]

As we begin the new year, I strongly believe we are entering a period of great danger and even greater uncertainty. Events are unfolding within and without the movie industry that are extremely threatening our studio. Some of you might be surprised to read these words. After all, Disney was number one in 1990. Yes, but our number one status was far from a sign of robust health. Instead, it merely underscored the fact that our studio did the least badly in a year of steady decline for all of Hollywood. A year that was capped off by disastrous Christmas for nearly everyone. Although we led at the box office in 1990, our bottom line profits in the movie business were the lowest in three years. And he goes on and on and on. And the idea is, as he's talking about this, is that we need to invest in good ideas. We need to get behind big ideas, you know, and it. It's a really interesting. I'll be very honest, I skimmed the 30 pages. But it's. It's a bold statement by a. I would argue, one of the most powerful people in the business at this time.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, there's a lot I actually like in it. Like, he has this line where he goes, like lemmings, we are all racing faster and faster into the sea, Each of us trying to outrun and outspend and out earn the other in a mad sprint toward the mirage of making the blockbuster.

[Paul Scheer]

I love Andy.

[Amy Nicholson]

He's really like, we need to get out of the blockbuster business and just worry about making smart, creative new ideas instead of drilling gigantic franchises. But then what happens is he uses that energy to make the Rocketeer. And then when the Rocketeer flops, people are like, nah.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, this is what I love about this. Cause I was like, oh, I would love people to read this today. There's a section called the Idea is King. In a dizzying world of movie making, we must not be distracted from one fundamental concept. Idea is king. Stars, directors, writers, hardware, special effects, new sound systems. All of these can have a role to play in the success of a film. But they must serve the humble subject. But they must serve as humble subjects to the supremacy of the idea. Original ideas, like, I love that idea. Like that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I could not agree with that more. I want that to be true.

[Paul Scheer]

And he says that one of the most misunderstood and misused phrases in Hollywood is high concept, a phrase introduced by Michael for internal use by creative executives at Paramount as a guide for evaluating ideas. But it quickly spread throughout Hollywood and has since been widely misinterpreted and abused. And abused. High concept was intended to describe a unique idea whose originality could be conveyed briefly. The emphasis was supposed to be on originality, but has come to be placed on it briefly. So today, high concept is thought to mean an idea that can be summarized in a logline and TV Guide. I mean, you know, and, like, he

[Amy Nicholson]

is not wrong, but he was absolutely mocked for this, right?

[Paul Scheer]

So he was like, basically, it was like, you failed. And you wrote this thing to be like, well, I'm not failing. We're all failing. Like, Right. Like, that's basically the idea behind it. Like, he didn't want to. You know, he's like, I'm just. Yes, I'm the one to fail, but you'll be the one to fail next time. And it's. I mean, and that is really five years before this comes out. Like, that's a big swing. And I think that this idea. One of the. Again, a great sequence in this film is, you see Tom Cruise. Get the idea? He wakes up in the middle of the night. He writes it. He goes to FedEx Kinko's and wakes up the next morning. And that looks. And that first frantic phone call. Can we pull it back? Can we pull it back? No, you can't.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, my God. Can we hear the way he makes that phone call? It makes me laugh so much. Hi, this is Jerry Maguire. Listen, did those manuscripts get. Oh, they did. Oh, no, no, no. His fake charm. He's like, oh, they did like his fake smiles in this movie. Excellent, excellent. But you get to go with him on that breakdown. Like, his. I love that line, even break down, break through, break down, break through. Because you're kind of rooting for him, right? And then as that sequence goes on, you're like, wait, no, he looks crazy. He's wet. He's crazy. He's doing handstands. He's suddenly liking this to the Catcher in the Rye. He's like, I wrote so much, and I'm not even a writer. And the way that Jerry Maguire the movie lets that sinking thought go, oh, no, this isn't good. This is getting worse and worse. Excellent filmmaking. Cause it's not making fun of him. It's just right there in his enthusiasm.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, that's the Oprah part of it, right? When I go, oh, this is Tom Cruise. Like, that's the moment like, he jumps up on the couch. And I know that we've talked about that moment is incredibly misremembered. But that's the.

[Amy Nicholson]

But he stands up on the couch to impress Oprah and the audience 1000%. He's doing it for them as a reflection of their enthusiasm for him.

[Paul Scheer]

And I do think that, like, at the core of this movie, what makes it so interesting and debatable and on that list of a thousand essential films is it's not high concept at its core. It is about a character who begins to develop a conscience in a world that really does not reward it. Right. Like, it's not. It's an interesting story. Cause I think also agents are so, you know, looked at as, you know, oh, fuck your agent. Like, the agents are the worst. Like, where are these relationships? And they only like you when you're making money. And when you're not making money, they don't call you. And we see that. Right. It's a tough character to even play. And I can imagine, to a certain extent, Cameron Crowe has his own opinions about agents. By putting into the sports world, I think that we make it a little bit cleaner. But it's. This is a movie about the industry. This is about Hollywood, even though it's not about Hollywood. Right. It's about agents and those relationships. I think this is why the movie is nominated for so many awards. But I also think it's the reason why Tom Cruise isn't fully nominated as a Best actor. Cause you said early on, or we were talking about it early on, like, well, Tom Cruise won't wanna play this part. Cause he's a loser. And I never see this character as a loser. I see this character as someone who isn't as confident. And in that time period, Tom Cruise is playing things, not just Top Gun, but he was in the Firm, where that's a character that is wrestling with more stuff and getting over his head. Right. Not a loser. I don't think this character's a loser. I think this character is like a baby duckling. It's awkward.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. That's why I think he keeps falling and tripping on things. He's like, where am I in this world? He's really unsteady on his feet. I mean, he's very confident at the beginning, you know, going through. When you see him at prime, Jerry Maguire agent, being like, this is who I am. Before he has this whole meltdown. Yeah. I believe that character. I handle the lives and dreams of

[Paul Scheer]

72 clients and get an average of

[Amy Nicholson]

264 phone calls a day. It's one. I will not rest until I have

[Paul Scheer]

you holding a Coke, wearing your own shoe, playing a Sega game featuring you

[Amy Nicholson]

while singing your own song in a new commercial starring you broadcast during the super bowl in a game that you are winning. And I will not sleep until that happens.

[Paul Scheer]

It's what I do best.

[Amy Nicholson]

You get 15 minutes to call me back. But he becomes so wobbly on his feet in a way that I find fascinating. And like, to me, this is Tom Cruise saying, hey, I'm gonna start this movie off as the image of what you think a Tom Cruise role is, you know, because this is his image that he plays this kind of guy. And when you go through and look at each individual film, it's actually not true. Each one is a lot more weird and complicated than this. Cocktail is always the example I like to use because that character's so screwed up. Top Gun, which we talked about. We think of him as this cocky guy, but it's a movie about, like, tragedy and guilt and running away from things. Like, he tries to add these layers to it, but people just think he's this superficial asshole guy in most of his movies. And here he's like, fine, I will take that character to the extreme, and I will have him break down in front of you and try to destroy this reputation that I have for only playing this one type of role over and over again, because I'm not doing it. Nobody ever really sees that well.

[Paul Scheer]

And I also think this movie is a little bit ahead of its time in the sense of tackling a world. And I think, you know what? Yes, this is about agents and clients, but let's go further out. It's a world that I think you never have to be honest in. And there's a lot of relationships that we probably have that we don't have to be honest in. We can just be like, we can get through them. And this is, you know, this. I think this movie is saying, like, for the first time, Jerry Maguire's getting real talk, right? It's like. And. But he has this fake, real talk with, like, Kelly Preston, like, where Kelly Preston's like, I told you when we first started dating that we. I couldn't bullshit you. And we are always honest with each other. And he's like, yes, but you know that they aren't. They're just performing honesty. And what their honesty is is, just, like, uncomfortability, right? It's like, Right. It's. You know, she's gonna be cruel to him, but where that, like, brutal truth

[Amy Nicholson]

thing, or I even like the fact that she's like, if you want me to be with a girl, I'll be with a girl. Because there's almost no there there for her too, right? You know, like, she's such a contrast to Rene, who is, like, all soft and pillowy and weird and honest and keeps saying what she means, even when it's really awkward. And it's like, I love this guy. Which is insane to say that about this man so fast. And he's complete opposites.

[Paul Scheer]

And they're surrounded by. And by the way, she's also an island. She is a single mom. You know, she's in that speech that she gives to Bonnie Hunt about, like, I. I've been out there. I know. Like, she. She's attaching herself to him quickly, too. She's like. I mean, it's like a. It's like finding, you know, like a diamond in the rough. She's like, oh, my God, I got a diamond here. All I gotta do is, like, sink in. I think that part of her is. I don't know if she's in love with him. I like. I think that line where I'm in love with the man he wants to be. But I also think that she thinks, like, I can get in. In this place where potentially my life changes. Not that she. I think everyone's working on these different levels, right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Because she idolizes him. She knows he's the first class guy with the champagne, right? And that's.

[Paul Scheer]

And she's listening to him tell this story. And that story speaks of such a horrible. Oh, so feeling had to do it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Cause they got pressured into it, surrounded by people.

[Paul Scheer]

And I love that he. Everything is a performance. But I think that honesty and that Just emotional. She's honest about. Fuck. I don't know if I love him, but I love the man he wants to be. I don't know if this is right. Maybe we should redo it. Like, she's honest to a fault. That's real honesty, which is not being assured, right? She doesn't know what she's feeling from moment to moment. And I think Rod is just blunt. Like, you gotta get out. And these are.

[Amy Nicholson]

And she takes the responsibility for it, too. She's like, when she breaks up with him, she doesn't say, you did this. She wasn't like, you are so phony. You don't really love me. She might be thinking that, but she's like. She takes full ownership of it. I took advantage of you and the Worst of it is that I'm not alone. I did this with a kid. I was just on some wild ride where I thought that I was in love enough for both of us. Which, by the way, yeah, I mean, that conversation, she's immediately assuring him, and it's okay. You and the kid can be friends. You and Ray can stay friends. Not you and me, you and the kid. By the way, this really also shows you just how much my brain has changed since I saw this when I was young and in the 90s, the sexual harassment element of it did not pick up on it. Really. It's her boss said, oh, my goodness. And only on this watch was I really like, oh, yeah, Clarence Thomas joke. They even made a Clarence Thomas joke that was hilarious.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Don't worry about it, boss. Oh, shit. You said boss. Yeah, I did. Now I feel like Clarence Thomas. Oh, no, no, don't feel like Clarence Thomas. No, no, no, I do. I feel like Clarence Thomas. I'm like harassing you right now. Well, I may not too. I love that she makes it awkward. I love that she makes it awkward with that joke. She's so good.

[Paul Scheer]

Welcome to Inside the Art House, the

[Amy Nicholson]

go to destination for cinephiles and the number one place for art house cinema and filmmaker conversations. Each week, today's most visionary filmmakers pull back the curtain on the art of cinema.

[Paul Scheer]

Sharing how stories are made and why they matter.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hosted by Greg Laemmle of the legendary Laemmle Theaters, a family that shaped the movie business for over a century. And Raphael Sparge, actor and award winner winning director. Together they explore the creative process, the struggles, the triumphs behind the camera and the bold ideas shaping film today. From indie debuts, documentaries to international art house cinema, Inside the Art House dives deep into a world where passion meets craft and where the love of film lives.

[Paul Scheer]

Loud Inside the Art House conversations with

[Amy Nicholson]

today's most visionary filmmakers.

[Paul Scheer]

Listen all or watch wherever you get your podcasts. The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadowdark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruelty. Your torch ticks down in real time and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare

[Amy Nicholson]

with a story that emerges organically based

[Paul Scheer]

on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And, man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8pm Eastern on YouTube.com theglass with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark. And, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm also remembering that in the film, they say, oh, yeah, Jerry can't be alone. But the other line that I think is really important about this film is great at friendships, bad at relationships.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And intimacy.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. And that is, I think, an issue that a lot of people have. Right. Like, because I don't know if there's that much there there with him. Right. And he's trying to figure that out. I don't know if it's the career that has made him take away any imperfection that he can't show anything, but. But that, to me, is really fascinating. Like, he's in a world of people being fake. Right. It's too messy to say, how are you like? And not. And say, oh, I'm bad. Right. He can't ever show that he's bad.

[Amy Nicholson]

He gets a weakness. His friend will fire him at lunch.

[Paul Scheer]

And I love how quickly he gets it. Like, when you see him, like, Spidey senses like, oh, you took me out here to do this? And. And then you see him talking to his clients, like, I love that girl. That girl is so amazing. The gymnast who's like a teen, who is like, oh, Jerry, no, no. And then, I'm sorry, hello? And he's like, end up still on me. Oh, Jerry. But that's.

[Amy Nicholson]

That happened to Cameron Coe. He said.

[Paul Scheer]

Really?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. That there was an actress before this who was supposed to do one of his movies. I don't know which one. And she got on the phone crying with him, like, I'm so sorry, I can't do it. I wish I could. I thought I could. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she gets a call, and she thought she clicked over. She was just like, hello.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, there. So I think that there's two things also at play. And we have this conversation now. Like, you know, you ever see those memes where it's like, men will do blank, blank instead of going to therapy. Right. Like, it's always, like, some ridiculous thing that men will do instead of going to therapy. I think that this movie also shows it's rewarded. Right. It's rewarded to not show your true self. Right. To be this version of you.

[Amy Nicholson]

And, yeah. Like, somebody did the Breakdown. Cause even though it looks like he is successful at the end with Rod, like somebody. A sports agent did the breakdown. They're like, okay, well, listen. So Rod gets this deal, you know, four years, 11.7 million. Jerry Maguire gets 4%. That means he makes about $84,000. And think about what he's already spending on flights. And he's got to take care of Renee Zellweger's health insurance.

[Paul Scheer]

But Troy Aikman is like, buddy, let's do. Do this right. I think that that's the idea. Like, everybody wants that. I mean, everybody wants that from. This is the thing. I don't know. Maybe I have a different relationship with this too, as somebody who has agents and lawyers and all these people, right? Because it's like, you. I had a manager for 12 years, and then I fired that manager. And, you know, that was a. Somebody who was a very important part in my life. And my reasons for firing him were, you know, different needs. And you are. You're making these relationships. But I also. I think what I noticed was when I would have these conversations, I think I was wanting to have a real conversation, like, you're firing somebody. And the ones that I had were like, I remember this one with my manager's boss, who I wanted to also make sure that they knew I was leaving. And, you know, and it was like, okay, thank you, goodbye. Just hang up the phone, right? And you're like, oh, that's 12 years. It's a 12 year relationship that says goodbye. And I think the thick skin that all these agents and managers have to have, because at any given point, people are gonna walk away if you're not working hard enough for them. And this is a weird relationship because you want this person who's gonna fight for you, but they also are like, well, why am I fighting for you that hard? Because at any given moment, if I don't show up for you, I'm ditching you. And then you're like, well, then you get in relationships, like you said, where you are there just for loyalty. Like, okay, I'll just stay. I'll stay. And then people leave. And, you know, and there's a. There's a lot of. I think this is a very tricky relationship. Cause you want somebody in your corner 100%, but the minute they are perceived as not being there 100%, you lose them out of your life. It's a very, like, no other relationship kind of works like that. No.

[Amy Nicholson]

And that's where, I don't know, like, you're here Even when he's meeting with the guy who runs the Cardinals. Like, I introduced you to your wife. We spent Christmases together. You stood me up. Like, what?

[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

There's just that lack of loyalty even inside the office. Like, there's that bit where Tom Cruise is leaving the office when he gets fired and he's giving his big goodbye speech and who's coming with me? And he's being a complete mess, and he's, to me, going 2% too much into Nic Cage. So you think I'm gonna freak out. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

I do love it, though. It works.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's funny.

[Paul Scheer]

But that's Tom. That's what I think is Tom Cruise. I feel like if he was in that moment, he would do something like that.

[Amy Nicholson]

He would. But what I love about that scene is, like, it ends and he's like. As he's leaving, he's like, well, let's just see how they do without us, right? And it doesn't just cut away and stay with them as they go to the elevator. Like, Cameron Crowe stays in that gigantic pool of people with the cubicles. They leave the room and then you just see everybody go, okay. And they snap right back to work like it didn't matter.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's not like he did anything that registers. It's just like, okay, next.

[Paul Scheer]

And.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that that is this weird transactional part of the relationship. That moment where Jerry Maguire sits with Kush's dad. He's like, my word is oak. I'm going to be like. And that, I think, is a really beautiful way of showing the fickle nature of the business. Yes. Clients are going to stay and go and where. Wherever they might be. I've had agents who've left to become managers, and I did not go with them. And it's awkward, right? It's an awkward thing. It's. And I just think it's a very transactional relationship. Everybody wants that one person to fight for them. But I don't know. I think that there is a slight distance, I think, again, to reference the film outcome, which really have a lot of thoughts on. There's a great scene with Martin Scorsese playing Keanu Reeves first agent. By the way, Martin Scorsese is amazing in that. I think that that scene is amazing, but I think it really does capture this, like, this person that is sometimes a transitional person in your life. There's been a lot of talk lately about how Greta Gerwig was stolen away from her agency after all of her tremendous success. Barbie Narnia, all This stuff. And then she's like, oh, I'm gonna go over here now. And you're left as, I think, a team or an agent or somebody, like, going, like, but I did that. I was a part of that. And, you know, everyone's looking for that quicker thing or that bigger promise. So, you know, I could see how Cameron Crowe is writing this as an apology and also as a reckoning with this business that we all are in. The studio executive who wants to make your next movie, who doesn't make your next movie. I imagine that Cameron Crowe has felt Jerry Maguire more post Jerry Maguire than anything else, because Cameron Crowe's career has taken an odd shape. Like, he has some really solid misses, and that's from me, who was a giant fan of him and actively like, oh, I'm rooting for him. I want to see it work. And just some real, you know, some real odd ones. I wonder, in a way, how he would look at this movie now. I wonder what his point of view would be from. From then to now.

[Amy Nicholson]

I want to imagine, gosh, I mean, when I watch this film and I see just all of the incredibly brilliant, tiny human details in it. I mean, you've touched on this. Like, it doesn't sound like it's the kind of movie that would be high concept. Right?

[Paul Scheer]

Like, right.

[Amy Nicholson]

One of the stories I heard is that when James Lbrook first got Cameron Coe's script for it, he was like, I've never read a movie with this little action, you know, like, there's just like, where's the plot here? You know, but it's so lived in. It has all of these little beats that are so much about what real life feels like that I don't feel like even exist in movies, actually. This is something that Tom Cruise even said when he got his Golden Globe. I want to thank Cameron. You know, you gave me Jerry Maguire, man. You take. Made a movie out of little moments, moments that people would, you know, not feel worthy to put on film or interesting enough, and you turn it into this. These gems, these things I've never seen before. So thank you. You are a total original. And thank you for Jerry Maguire.

[Paul Scheer]

Thank you for that role.

[Amy Nicholson]

I wonder what it would be like to watch this film and be like, I did that. Like, I made that film. I really said something incredibly true about human behavior. And yet, because just I don't even know how creativity works this way. You can't keep doing it for the rest of your life. You don't make more than a gazillion of these, you know.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm always fascinated by that. When somebody makes a film that's so good, and then they have a really hard time making something that good again.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I think that, you know, Quentin Tarantino has boxed himself in in a certain way, but also has done something really interesting, which is like, I am not gonna make more than, you know, this number of movies. And I think that if you look online, what people might say is, well, now he's kind of fucked himself. Because if he gets excited about something and it's not the movie that he needs to make, that would be like, the. The ender. He won't make it, and he should be able to make it. But I think he also looks at it and goes, ah, I know what I want to do. And look, I could tell you from writing my book was one of my. The most fulfilling things I got to do in a very long time, because I got to write something. I got to be out there. I got very nice reviews and got a New York Times bestseller list. And everyone goes, when's your next book coming out? And I say, never, because I've only seen the second one of people that I think have written great first books and even very good second books. It just doesn't work. It doesn't. You know, so it's like. And that's.

[Amy Nicholson]

It'll take you seven years. Sorry to curse you. That's how it works.

[Paul Scheer]

No, no. But I'm not. I'm happy to be like, I don't want to. It's that thing of people want the. They want the next thing. They want the next thing. And you have to be smart about, I'm not gonna go do that. I gotta go find something else to do. And so I think that Quentin Tarantino is very smart about. I'm gonna cap myself. It allows me to kind of work in a way, like, is it worth it? And he could go make plays, he could go write books. He could do whatever. He's not saying, I'm gonna stop creating, but I'm gonna stop making movies. Cause I realized that people have. That make movies until a certain age, they get worse. But then you look at somebody like Martin Scorsese, who, yeah, I think he's got ups and downs, but he still can make a fantastic film.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, but this is why, you know, this is why, you know, the Quentin Tarantino that I want Quentin Tarantino movie to make, that what I want him to make is just the world's greatest kids film, like, the world's greatest gigantic four Quadrant kids film that gets kids in love with movies for rest of the time. That's how I want him to go out. Something radically different than what he's done. But, like, I think he could do it. And I want him to invest in the next generation of kids. Which, by the way, reminds me of, like, a story from even the shooting of Jerry Maguire, which is Jonathan Lipnicki. Fantastic. Love Lipnicky. Lipnicki's so good in this. Gotta play a little Lipnicky just to set the mood for this. Okay, Avery will meet you at the B gate at 4:15.

[Paul Scheer]

Don't be late.

[Amy Nicholson]

Jared, you know the human head weighs eight pounds. Did you know that Troy Aikman, in only six years, has passed for 16,303 yards? Do you know bees and dogs can smell fear? Oh, I put Tidwell on the same floor at the Marriott Marquee. He doesn't smoke, does he?

[Paul Scheer]

I don't know.

[Amy Nicholson]

Did you know the career record for Most hits is 4256 by Pete Rose, who was not in the hall of fame. Do you know that my next door neighbor had three rabbits?

[Paul Scheer]

I can't compete with that, by the way. That was something that Lipnicki came to set with. And Cameron Crow never wrote lines of dialogue for the two of them. He just let them kind of improvise with each other because he wanted to create that bond. And it really works wonderfully.

[Amy Nicholson]

It works so well. But what's crazy is there was a different kid cast before Lipnicki, and they shot a fair amount of the film with a different kid. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. They shot, like, the living room scene and stuff with a different kid. Because I think they were trying to do a kid who didn't look so cute in McDonald's. Y. Like, that was actually Cameron Crowe's. First thing is like, I don't want a McDonald's kid. You know, I want a kid who's gonna play this more like a darker, sadder film, because that's how he saw it. And so they get more of a dramatic little kid. And the kid, after they're shooting the living room scene, just kind of looks around and goes, I don't want to do this. Like, he's looking at all of the people, and he's like, no, I'm done. And so they had to replace the kid. Cause they're like, well, we're not gonna make this kid do a movie he doesn't wanna do. And then months after that, Cameron Crowe heard from that kid's parents that they were like, please, thank you. Please send a thank you to Tom Cruise. And it turned out that Tom Cruise had been sending that kid who quit the film letters and gifts the whole time just to be like, hey, how's it going? How's it going? And, like, checking in with him.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

And that he said the reason he did it when Tom. When Kamigrew asked him about it is this is his. I just didn't want that kid to go to the movies, look at the screen and think that he failed. I wanted him to love movies his entire life.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that. I mean, I love that. I love that he. I mean. And I know there's a lot of talk about, like, Tom Cruise's personality now is, I like movies and I like popcorn. Right? That's about all that we're gonna get in Tom Cruise, like, outside of him promoting a film. I like movies.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm fine with that, man. I don't need to know anything about anybody anymore.

[Paul Scheer]

I guess what I also think, to a point that you made a little while ago, but I just wanted to hit it, which is I think that a movie this small can work with a movie star that big. Because he is the show, he is the action. He's the set pieces. And the character is flailing around, sometimes literally, but emotionally. And it's really fun to watch. It is a very showy performance, and that's the show. And then you compare that show with, you know, Rod, who is also, like, everyone is. Is kind of strutting their stuff, right? And that's why you're leaning in. It's just great dialogue, great performances. You're. You're enthralled by him. And the poster is just like a. A slightly out of focus, you know, side view of Tom's face smiling. And it's like, that's what we're getting. That's the movie. It's Jerry mc. You know, it is. We're gonna watch a character study, and when done well, yeah, we don't need an explosion. We don't need him to jump off a, you know, a moving train or anything like that. Although he did dance for 15,000 extras when they were shooting the final sequence of the film.

[Amy Nicholson]

And he did do his classic run. But you know, what I think is so wonderful about this script is when you think about it, it's kind of an everything movie. As weird and strange and cynical as it is. It's got the sports, it's got romance, it's got comedy. I really wish that Tom Cruise had made More comedies, in my opinion. I think he's made maybe three.

[Paul Scheer]

We're gonna get one. Coming up. Digger is a comedy. Big one.

[Amy Nicholson]

I hope that's good, at least.

[Paul Scheer]

It is. Intentionally a comedy.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, good. But what I love about the dialogue here, too, that he's delivering is it's not even so much always about the words on the page, which are fantastic. And this movie is one of the most quotable films I've ever. That he delivers it by, like, just saying the same lines in different ways. You know, like when I'll play a little bit of that locker room confrontation that he has with Cuba Goodin Jr. That starts with him going like, it wasn't all about the money, was it? Was it? Was it? You know, changing the intonation. And then here it kind of builds to this, which I love.

[Paul Scheer]

God help me. Help me, Rod.

[Amy Nicholson]

Help me help you. Help me help you. Help me help you.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm sorry. You are hanging on by a very

[Amy Nicholson]

thin thread, and I dig that about you. I don't know. The way that he just takes a sentence and shapes it and turns it into different levels of performance is masterful in this. And then to have somebody just make

[Paul Scheer]

fun of it is a Tom Cruise thing. I mean, I remember talking to people. Jay Moore has great stories about working with Tom. I know that Jerry does, too. But the one thing. And I'm not talking out of school. Yeah. I'm not. Is that you would go in to do these tests with Tom, and he knew everything about this character. He'd say, oh, we're gonna start at page 50. He never carried a script. He had it in his head, and he could jump in at any point. And he knew your line. He knew his line. And this is not people on a press tour telling me this. This is people that I've talked to. Like, it's uncanny. He's so. In his characters. I know specifically about this film, but he's so right there. I've never worked with an actor where you go, page 50, and they go, got it. I know where I'm at.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I think whatever his brain is and however it works, it seems completely freakish. I mean, he just feels like he was biologically made to be a movie star.

[Paul Scheer]

But that's also why I think that Jerry Maguire is. When you meet him in the beginning, it feels like that's the guy. He's the guy charming the woman on the plane, helping the woman pick up the thing on the ground. He is the guy that you're not gonna ever See Sweat. And then this movie makes him sweat a lot.

[Amy Nicholson]

It does. But you know what? He doesn't ever get to laugh at it. Right. Like, when you watch this movie from his point of view, he's living his nightmare. Like, it's incredibly funny, but he never realizes he's in a comedy at all.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, except for that one scene, which is my favorite, when Todd Louiso, who's the Manny, the childcare technician, I love Todd Lizzo, gives them the jazz tape, and then they're, like, having sex. And the jazz tape is so disconcerting. He's like, what are we doing here? I love that moment. And I think this movie has a lot. It's going in one direction and it's constantly puncturing. The movie star thing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

I think that that's James L. Brooks.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's the movie thing, too. Yes. You know, here's my big moment where I karaoke in the car. Cause I'm happy. I don't know the words. Like, it's puncturing all the big beats.

[Paul Scheer]

And I will say that as much as I love Cameron Crowe and say Anything To Me is another one of those defining movies for me. I love singles as well. Haven't rewatched it in a long time,

[Amy Nicholson]

but I've never seen Singles.

[Paul Scheer]

I gotta say, oh, wow. I loved it when I watched it, and I owned it on multiple formats. I think James L. Brooks is a master of this. Right. Like, I love that they worked together on this movie. Because I think that James L. Brooks can do things like, you know, as good as it gets, you know, is what I'm thinking about right now. But I'm like, he can kind of tackle adult themes well now. Sometimes it's a misfire. But this is like James L. Brooks in his prime, being able to be like, let's just go. And, you know, Broadcast News, which I love and you hate. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I should watch it again. We should do Broadcast News. I've only seen it one time, and I really didn't like it. Cause, I don't know, I get really up in my case about stuff, but I should try to. I know that I'm wrong on that one. Rarely will I say that I'm wrong, but I'm probably wrong to not load Broadcast News. So I'll give it another shot.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that, like, Spanglish, you know, these are interesting movies that, like, he just plays with more complicated themes. And I think he is a very. I don't know, I think he's a very interesting filmmaker. And I Think the combination of both of these guys, I mean, going back to terms of Endearment, you know, obviously, it's like they can tackle emotional things in a very exciting way that doesn't feel like melodrama. And that, to me, is really important.

[Amy Nicholson]

They don't feel embarrassed to be making a movie with emotions. They're like, yeah, I'm making a movie with emotions. Emotions are cool.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, look at it like this. Like, here we are 30 years later, and this is a movie about burnout, ethics and how bad men are at emotional growth. Doesn't that seem like exactly.

[Amy Nicholson]

What.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, we could put that out right now. But yeah, yeah, these are all the things that we're going through. And when I look back on that memo from 1991 that Hollywood's in a moment. We are in a moment, right? This is. We are in this moment.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, that's not wrong, because nobody wants to hear it.

[Paul Scheer]

No one wants to be right. Because it's lame. It's lame to show that you care. And this is an issue that I have with a lot of comedy, too. It's like, sometimes you will see people doing things that are so meta. Instead of just doing the thing, just do the thing, commit to the thing. And if people don't like it, fine. But I think it's like. I think it's this. This, like, way to hold on. It's like, well, I didn't really mean it. I actually. I think it's shit. So that. That's. That was the point. And it sucks, you know, Like, I. I think that the difference is, like, when I look at, like, somebody even, like, Chris Fleming in the comedy world, I'm like, chris Fleming Fucking goes for it. It's the most unique, all over the place. And it's this earnest. And he's not trying to be cool, but yet he is cool because he is just being himself. And it's something that I think is hard to do in a world where we are all trained to be performative, you know, like, what. How many. I hate saying, how many likes do we have? How many things do we like? Or, you know, all these things have been built into our society since 1996 to literally judge us on what we are showing. You show an opinion, fuck you, stay in your own lane. You know, it's like, there's no respect for discourse. You have to just kind of be above it all, in a way. And so I do think that this movie is and should stay on that list of a thousand essential films because it is timeless in that way.

[Amy Nicholson]

It really is. I'm so glad we did this. And I love talking about this movie with you and hearing your love for it in your voice as well.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because this movie even goes through waves of like, is it lame to even like, Jerry Maguire, you know? Or are we celebrating it with a legit mix of love and mockery? Like, I adore, you know, I adore, like, the Everything is Terrible crew and how they started collecting the Jerry vhs, how Demetria Nick started collecting the Jerry VHS and, like, made the video store of Jerry Maguire, which of course, I went to go visit. And now they're, like, working on the pyramid, you know, and when you talk about this film, but you could, I feel like, even hear it in their voices. It's a movie that you love and you're making fun of and you love and you're making fun of kind of in equal measure. Right.

[Paul Scheer]

Honestly, we would have collected a few hundred and then that would have been the end of it. But, like, the fact that people just kept giving us thousands of them. Like, all the amount of work that people have put together to make this happen. Yeah. It's like, what are we gonna do?

[Amy Nicholson]

So.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. So we decided, okay, we can't keep shipping these home with us. We can't just. This has to. I'm not getting any younger. We're not getting any younger. This has to. That lead to something beyond the store. I think the store is great, but that's not permanent. What is the most permanent thing of all? Oh, a pyramid. We want it to be like a pilgrimage for people.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because that's the other thing.

[Paul Scheer]

Once we're not here to take everyone's Jerry's, they're gonna have to take it somewhere.

[Amy Nicholson]

To the pyramid. Yeah. And I mean, I'm fine with that. That being its like, sweet spot honoring a movie that makes you feel these emotions.

[Paul Scheer]

And this is what I'm saying. Like this idea that you are lame for exploring these ideas. And to your point, this is not a clean movie. Right. This is not like everything is great. If you just speak your mind, everyone will be on board with you.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. No, Right.

[Paul Scheer]

It's a movie that's like, you can have success in your career and also be happy and not sell out your own self. That's not like. That's not a Hollywood message. That's not a everything will be okay. It's the anti Hollywood message. But it's like, fuck you for making me cry. It's the same thing we felt about, like, the Notebook. It's like well, no, no, don't. Fuck you for making me cry. Like, that's like. It's okay. It's okay to wrestle with it, to see yourself in it, to see where you want to improve a movie like it. This is not a perfect story. This is not a. It's not a Hollywood movie. It's a movie about someone awkwardly trying and failing. And success is built out of failure. And we don't know if this company goes on and has great success. We allude to it, but we don't know. And we don't know if their relationship goes on. It's like, this is not a happily ever after movie. It's like, wow, Successful first step has been taken on this person's journey. And where we'll go, who the fuck knows?

[Amy Nicholson]

Exactly. That's why it ends on his mentor and his mentor kind of giving this final word. Hey, I don't have all the answers in life, to be honest. I failed as much as I've succeeded.

[Paul Scheer]

But I love my wife, I love

[Amy Nicholson]

my life, and I wish you my kind of success. And by the way, that Dickie Fox character, the person they really wanted to play Dickie Fox was Billy Wilder, who made the Apartment.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, right, yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

Really worked on that. Like, really worked on that. Cameron was reaching out to him all the time. Cameron brought Tom Cruise over to try to talk him into it. He was like, tom Cruise can definitely talk him into it. They've really tried. And it was. From everything I've heard, it was incredibly awkward because Billy Wilder was like, I don't act, I don't act. But they really thought maybe they could get him to say yes. Then Billy Wilder was making fun of Tom Cruise because he's like, why are you wearing jeans? You're a movie star. People want to see you dress up. What are you doing? In my day, you should dress up. Which, like, Tom Cruise is like, oh, my God. You know, this is Billy Wilder, the great Billy Wilder, kind of putting Tom Cruise on the back of his heels a little bit. And then Cameron Crowe got the feeling that Billy Wilder didn't realize that he himself was retired, that he was like, no, I'm still in it. I'm still in the game.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

And that he felt like Billy Wilder was trying to draw a wedge between him and Tom Cruise so that he could work with Tom Cruise instead of. And the whole thing just sounded kind of haywire. But, yes, he's not in the film. They did manage to stay friends, though. Tom Cruise apparently wrote him a bunch of notes. And so Did Cameron Crowe. So they stayed in the loop together. Cameron Crowe did a book of interviews with him.

[Paul Scheer]

I was gonna say, that's the one I love. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. But that climbed out of him, trying to get him to do this movie. Oh. But I will say to bring the Apartment back around, they did invite Shirley MacLaine to an early screening. And as she left the movie, she was like, renee Zellweger, been inspired by me in the apartment. And they were like, yeah. And she's like, okay. I thought so.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow. I love that. I wanna say, also, what I think is really interesting and continues to make the movie a little bit more complicated, a little bit more cynical is Dickie Fox is Jerry Maguire's mentor. And everything that Dickie Fox says is something that Jerry Maguire is trying to achieve in the second half of the movie. But I think it's really fascinating to be like, oh, a man who you look up to and idolize as the person who taught you this business. You've perverted it. Right? Like, it's like, my mentor told me this. Well, guess what? You don't live it. And that idea is really interesting to me, too. It's like, oh, how far you've come. Maybe you think that you're still there, but how quickly you can lose yourself and that idealism and that want to do things in a way that is true to who you are. I think that that's a wonderful little, like, nugget that's not directly called out.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, you're not.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, it's not. Like, you know, it's not. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Would you say that? I mean, Jay Moore calls Jerry Maguire his mentor. Right?

[Paul Scheer]

So.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. So there are these things in this movie that can show you how quickly you can fall. It's like, yeah, you started with all the right instincts, and it's so quick to become this other person, you know? And you watch even, like, Bob Sugar do that fake hug, you know, he's like, oh, how do I be more like Jerry now? Right. Cause he's also like, how do I stay afloat? Everyone's like. And that's the joke of it, is like, the minute Jerry gets success, he might lead a revolution. If Jeffrey Katzenberg, you know, the minute he has success, all of a sudden that that thing isn't dumb, but because it comes out after Dick Tracy, he's over. He's done. Let's move on. And that's. You know, I always say this is a dangerous business, because if you're an asshole and successful people will accept it, and the Minute you fall and you're an asshole, people are like, fuck you. Like, you see it so quick, right? And, like, we're watching it even happen in a little bit of, you know, the amount of people that are coming out after, you know, Alex Cooper and Unwell, like, it's like, yeah. And the minute a crack is people will try to break through that thing. And I'm not saying anything about. I don't know anything about Alex.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, I don't know anything about it either. But at the end, one of the number one things you see when there's an Internet pile on is, oh, they just didn't like this person already and couldn't.

[Paul Scheer]

But you can't say it when they're successful. You can only say it when they're not.

[Amy Nicholson]

Which makes us all hypocrites. Like, it's all so crazy.

[Paul Scheer]

It really is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Shut up. Just shut up. You had me at hello. You had me at hello. Okay, well, you know what I really want to do after this movie?

[Paul Scheer]

What?

[Amy Nicholson]

I think it's finally time. There is a movie that is on the letterbox top. 250 films that I always thought I was the only person who liked. And then it turned out that you liked it. And of course, now I see that Letterboxd likes it. And now I'm feeling, especially coming out of Jerry and Prada, it is absolutely time for us to finally do Ben Stiller's Secret Life of Walter altermandy.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow. What another great continuation. I mean, we really are. We're really following a pattern here. I like this. I like this. I'm excited about this. Let's go. Let's go and attack this one. Cause I'm excited to rewatch it. What a blast.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited. I finally got my man to say he'll watch MIDI with me because it turns out he loves the screenwriter because he did a DTF thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, oh, okay, I'll watch everything he does. Yes, it is midi time.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, great. All right. So, Amy, the Secret Life of Walter Mitty, where you can find it, is, you know, wherever things are streaming. I mean, at this point, like, you know, you know, you know. And we'll be continuing this conversation about Jerry Maguire on our substack. It's called before youe Watch. It is on substack for free. We'll play that clip that Amy played earlier with the acceptance speech and the control booth. A bunch of great stuff in there. Get over to the substack, subscribe it's free. It's easy. All right. And make sure that you subscribe to our YouTube channel, etunspooled. YouTube.com etunspooled we're going to be launching something there very shortly. Very exciting. Very exciting. All right, Amy, we will talk soon. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Realm production. See you next week. Bye for now. From the parents behind Law and Order

[Amy Nicholson]

comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy.

[Paul Scheer]

Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries Step into the

[Amy Nicholson]

whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11 year old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries.

[Paul Scheer]

Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings

[Amy Nicholson]

Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for

[Paul Scheer]

kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery.

[Amy Nicholson]

The whole family can listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh please, not that music.

[Amy Nicholson]

That music gives me nightmares from my childhood.

[Paul Scheer]

Could we get something a little bit lighter? Some lighter music here?

[Amy Nicholson]

Are you a fan of true crime TV shows?

[Paul Scheer]

And what about Unsolved Mysteries, the show that jump started all of our love of true crime?

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm Ellen Marsh.

[Paul Scheer]

And I'm Joey Taranto and we host

[Amy Nicholson]

I think Not, a true crime comedy

[Paul Scheer]

podcast covering some of the wildest stories

[Amy Nicholson]

from your favorite true crime campy TV shows all the way to Unsolved Mysteries. Baby, you will laugh, you will cry. You'll think about true crime in a whole new way.

[Paul Scheer]

And you'll also ask yourself, who gave these people mics?

[Amy Nicholson]

New episodes of I Think not are released every Wednesday, with bonus episodes out every Thursday on Patreon. And every Monday you can listen to our True Crime rundown where we go

[Paul Scheer]

over the top true crime headlines of the week.

[Amy Nicholson]

So come and join us wherever you listen to your podcasts.