Sinners

Summary

Unspooled – "Sinners"

Hosts: Paul Scheer & Amy Nicholson
Date: March 19, 2026
Theme: A deep-dive discussion of "Sinners," the boundary-pushing, genre-blending period horror musical by Ryan Coogler, its Oscar journey, filmmaking craft, and layered themes of community, trauma, and cultural legacy.

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Unspooled centers on Ryan Coogler’s "Sinners," a 2025 period horror film that earned critical and commercial acclaim, tying for the most Oscar nominations in history and reshaping genre expectations. Paul and Amy analyze the film’s technical brilliance, character work, thematic complexity, cultural significance, and legacy—unpacking its surprising Oscars night, memorable musical numbers, layered performances, and what it says about community, compromise, trauma, and the persistence of art.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Oscars Review and "Sinners" in Context

[02:23]–[14:22]

• Paul and Amy open with Oscars talk, reflecting on a season where "Sinners," despite record 16 nominations, was overshadowed by "One Battle After Another" in major categories.
• Cast and crew achievements:
  • Ryan Coogler wins his first Oscar.
  • First female cinematographer to win.
  • Big historical moment for horror and musical genres.
• Sinners “lost” 12 categories—still, Amy frames this as a reflection of stiff competition, not the film’s shortcomings.
  • "There's one way of spinning it where... it's the biggest loser. It has lost 12 Oscars, which I think is a new Oscar record for any single film." —Amy [11:44]
• The hosts recount their own Oscar ballot results, with Paul reclaiming the trophy from Amy.

The Genesis and Scope of "Sinners"

[18:28]–[22:25]

• Coogler’s journey: From indie breakthroughs ("Fruitvale Station") with Michael B. Jordan and Ludwig Göransson, through franchise films ("Creed," "Black Panther"), to the ambition for a personal, passionate project.
• Inspiration for "Sinners": The blues, family history, remembering his roots, and channeling both trauma and celebration into a story inspired by the song "Wang Dang Doodle."
  • "He saw his uncle pass away and felt the blues become even more important to him." —Amy [19:47]
• Plot summary:
  Set in 1932 Mississippi, blues guitarist Sammy (Miles Caton) helps his twin cousins, Smoke and Stack (both Michael B. Jordan), open a juke joint—soon beset by vampires, personal betrayals, and supernatural reckonings.
• Multilayered character introductions and the intersection of Black Southern, Chinese, and Irish heritage communities.

Character Analysis & Nuanced Performances

[23:22]–[48:51]

• Smoke & Stack (Michael B. Jordan):

  • Paul and Amy marvel at Jordan’s seamless dual performance; the distinction is subtle, yet rooted in their traumatic upbringing.
    • "You forget that you are watching the same actor." —Paul [23:46]
  • Stack: quieter, sterner; Smoke: flashier, protector. Deep dive includes the scene recounting paternal abuse and how it shaped their bond.
    • "Smoke is the one who took the most abuse from his dad, and Stack is the one who stood up and killed their dad for them." —Amy [26:58]
  • Smoke’s inability to kill Stack at the climax echoes survivor’s guilt and familial love.

• Delroy Lindo (Delta Slim):

  • Lindo’s performance is both magnetic and understated, exemplified by an improvised scene where storytelling gives way to healing drumming.
    • "He is bone deep in that performance... drumming on the dashboard was improvised." —Amy [38:30]
  • Delta Slim as a “moral elder”—his journey from cautious survivor to sacrificial mentor for the next generation.

• Ensemble Cast:

  • All performances (Jamie Lawson, Wunmi Mosaku, Hailee Steinfeld, Lee Jun Lee) praised for contributing to an authentic, lived-in world—no showboating.
    • "There isn’t a bad performance in this film... everyone's working together to create this tapestry." —Paul [43:00]

• Women’s Role in the Film:

  • Female characters ultimately drive the narrative and climax—agency, trauma, and resilience foregrounded.
  • "These guys show up, they're macho, they run around, and then slowly, all these women enter the film, and then they take over." —Amy [82:28]

Thematic Richness: Community, Trauma, and Assimilation

[32:22]–[62:17]; [65:28]–[73:15]

• The pain of history and generational trauma runs through every character and encounter; intergenerational violence is both a horror and a means of survival.

• Vampires as metaphors:

  • Hive mind = loss of individuality via forced community/assimilation; also, a stand-in for systems of oppression—and gentrification, capitalism, colonialism.
  • "What the vampires are offering is eternal community. We will save you in that. That's—the fuel of this entire movie." —Paul [54:54]
  • "Is it worth the cost to make life easy, but you give away what makes you unique?" —Paul [57:58]
  • Remick, the Irish vampire leader, as a complex figure: both victim and tool of historical trauma, now passing it on.
    • Coogler’s intention: "No one is more shrewd than a person who's been fucked over. That kind of history of subjugation gives him this empathy..." —Paul [52:41, citing Coogler]

• The lure of community (church, club, vampire colony) is both irresistible and double-edged, challenging characters’ autonomy.

• Money as survival—and as a corrupting force.

  • "One of the best ways you can protect people is to teach them how to talk this language of money." —Amy [80:41]

• Sharp social commentary: Segregated shops, the need to compromise to survive, Black and Chinese heritage, Native American presence (Choctaw), and the experience of always being outsiders.

  • "Ryan has said the only false thing in this movie is the vampires." —Amy [90:25]

Innovative Filmmaking Craft:

[62:17]–[87:25]

• Coogler’s “big swing” of blending horror, musical, period detail, and family drama—never letting the genre elements overshadow character or emotional stakes.
  • "It is entertainment first and foremost... not embarrassed to be making a big, popular, fun film." —Amy [65:28]
• The element of surprise:
  • "The reveal of vampires took 30-40 minutes—I love that I had that experience." —Paul [65:49]
• Musical centerpiece—"I Lied to You":
  • A bravura single-shot dance number, mixing blues, hip hop, gospel, and folk, showing the joy and togetherness at the heart of the community.
    • "As you're watching everyone dance, they are not one, but yet they are becoming one in the music." —Paul [75:32]
  • Differences between community in music vs. forced unity via vampires.
• Soundtrack & Score:
  • Ludwig Göransson works alongside his wife Serena (music supervisor) to create 29 distinct musical moments—authentic, diegetic, and thematically layered.
    • "This is a score that comes from almost like the deep part of the American psyche." —Amy [84:53]
  • Inclusion of Buddy Guy as the older Sammy, a tribute to the blues' roots and legacy.
    • "They got his blessing and they shot this club that kind of looks like the club that Buddy Guy himself owns in Chicago." —Amy [86:38]
• Authenticity in costume and community:
  • Costuming by Ruth Gordon, using repurposed "Blade" film garments for prohibition-era accuracy.
    • "So we're getting a what Blade could have looked like." —Amy [93:32]
  • Consultation and authentic casting for Choctaw/Native American characters and Delta Chinese heritage.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Oscars and the state of film:
  "It never felt like a battle... there was just kind of an awards room decision that everybody was in it together tonight. That it's like Hollywood itself is the victim of one battle after another." —Amy [05:44]

• On the nature of community/assimilation:
  "Any group you give yourself over to, you risk losing what makes you unique." —Amy (paraphrased throughout; [57:58], [59:21] on community vs. individuality)

• On authenticity in partnership:
  "I have this really sharp memory... Ryan kept asking Zinzi what she thought of things and being like, okay, what do you think? And, like, really listening to her opinion first. And I was like, oh, man. You feel that in this movie." —Amy [91:46]

• On the legacy of "Sinners":
  "This movie has sustained conversation for 12 months. That's impressive... in the current landscape of cinema, for any movie to exist past a weekend, you know, is a tremendous accomplishment." —Paul [94:57]

---

Important Timestamps for Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:23–14:22 | Oscars recap, "Sinners" as the perennial runner-up, ensemble cast awards | | 18:28–22:25 | The making and origins of "Sinners": Coogler’s motivations, synopsis | | 23:22–48:51 | Deep character and performance analysis; twin motif; Delroy Lindo’s role | | 52:00–56:29 | Vampires as community metaphor; assimilation; Remick’s empathetic evil | | 65:28–73:15 | The musical centerpiece, use of music as narrative and theme, Ludwig Göransson | | 86:38–90:25 | Buddy Guy cameo and the film’s musical legacy; authenticity in casting | | 89:21–91:46 | Native American representation; Zinzi Coogler’s influence | | 93:32 | Fun fact: Repurposed "Blade" costumes |

---

Final Thoughts

• Both hosts praise "Sinners" as one of the most inventive films of the year—a genuinely modern classic, rich with ideas, character work, and visual-musical storytelling.
• The conversation closes with excitement for "Arrival," which listeners can watch before the next episode.

---

Next Week: Arrival — “Let’s keep talking about genre-bending, feeling-first science fiction!”

Transcript

[Paul Scheer]

Hey everybody. One of my favorite podcasts, Talking Pictures, is back for another season. You know this. It's from TCM and HBO Max. It's a podcast all about movies and memories hosted by Ben Mankiewicz, and he gets to sit down with some of Hollywood's most influential actors and filmmakers to discuss the movies that inspired them. I've been on the show. It was the most fun. And this season he is talking to people like Edgar Wright about pacing and montages in film and Rosie Perez about her acting career and how it kind of just began on accident. He's also talking to Patton Oswalt, Susan Sarandon, Hiro Murai, who is a director who did a lot of Atlanta, and the great new show Widow's Bay, Sally Field, Tony Goldwyn, and so much more. This season, Ben and his guests are on camera. So you can also watch Talking Pictures on HBO Max and Spotify, or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy, or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the name your price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law.

[Amy Nicholson]

The year is 2025.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

You boys twins? Nah, we cousins.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, the movie sinners. Hello everyone and welcome to UNS Food.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, we welcome to unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed EMS, we have

[Amy Nicholson]

covered the AFI top 100. And now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterboxd top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb top 250 and the New York Times 1000 essential films. And hey Paul, let's just even talk about what won four Oscars this week.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, we are officially out of our Oscar fever. Amy, I am feeling better and we can all breathe a sigh of relief knowing that this Season has ended, but yet the next season has already started with the release of Project Hail Mary. I feel like that movie is going to be the Sinners of next year, but we got a long Runway for that. How did you think the Oscars were?

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I liked them. I totally blew my ballot. I don't know if I've ever done worse on my Oscar ballot than last year. And I like that because it means I got surprised and it means the wealth was scattered around.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, we're gonna talk about who won and who lost. If you've not been following us on our substack, we have had a lot of chatter, a lot of Oscar talk, a lot of ballot fill ins, small talk at the Oscars. Here's what I will say. For me, my ballot was pretty solid. There wasn't too many surprises. I think the big surprise was in the documentary about Putin winning. No one really had that down. Uh, the tie, I think, is a little bit interesting. But beyond that, I think the two big upsets were that Francine Mazler did not win for Sinners, which we talked about here, or we're gonna be talking about in a little bit on the show how great the casting was in Sinners. But one battle after the other won for casting.

[Amy Nicholson]

It felt like in the moment that it was a prize for saying thank you for discovering Chase Infinity. But I'm also really impressed that Sinners discovered Miles Caton. So what are you gonna do? I mean, I think I was stuck in maybe some old school Oscar thinking from December because I had a lot of people who were winning. All of the critics groups winning this big night. Usually that happens. Absolutely. Got roasted. Did not work.

[Paul Scheer]

Well. I wanna bring up one thing before I reveal the results of our Oscar ballots. And it was a tweet that I saw by Just say rad on threads. And I thought it was pretty interesting. James Cameron, Martin Scorsese and Paul Thomas Anderson won their first directing Oscars for movies starring Leonardo DiCaprio. And I thought that was interesting because now, while I really do believe that Michael B. Jordan should have won and he did, I do think that there's something really interesting about DiCaprio. I think he's very good, and I don't always think that people treat him as good as he is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, it's funny, I was watching him when he finally went upstairs as part of the ensemble, when one battle after another won a Best Picture, he looked like he was outer space man. I was like, that guy has so much life and shambling energy on Screen, and then he's standing up on stage just like. He looked like he was floating somewhere else.

[Paul Scheer]

I think that there's a lot of relief knowing that you're probably not gonna win. Uh, there was an outside chance of him winning, but I was just really happy with how it all went down. I think a lot of people were hoping for a split between the movie we're talking about today, Sinners, perhaps for Best Picture, and Paul Thomas Anderson for Best Director, or vice versa, however people wanted to look at it. But. But I got a feeling very early on this is gonna be a one battle year. It just felt like that from all the award shows it did.

[Amy Nicholson]

But do you know what really stood out to me, though, about last night?

[Paul Scheer]

What?

[Amy Nicholson]

Is that it never felt like a battle, in a way. And I don't mean that because it wasn't a horse race, because it really felt like in the room, there was just kind of an awards room decision that everybody was in it together tonight. That it's like Hollywood itself is the victim of one battle after another.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, wow. Victim.

[Amy Nicholson]

And you know what? We are not gonna be fighting each other. It's. And all the people who kind of wanted this award a little bit too much. Timothee Chalamet, Adrien Brody from last year, they got publicly shamed. Publicly shamed. It was all a love fest.

[Paul Scheer]

I do want to talk about this, though, too. I believe that there's a lot of energy around Timothee Chalamet saying the ballet. That comment, you know, no one cares about the ballet. And what was the other thing they don't care about?

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, opera. Opera. I mean, eventually he'll get around to slam poetry.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Opera.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. But I feel like that was said the day the Oscar ballots were due. I don't think it swayed it that much.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, no, not at all. Yeah, I don't think so. And I think, if anything, he's done more for the ballet in one week of getting razzed about it than, you know, basically anybody short of Misty Copeland, who also took the stage, has done in 10 years.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, I love how Sinners incorporated ballet into their piece. That piece was amazing. We're gonna talk about that piece in. In today's episode. But to bring ballet into it, I thought that Conan did an amazing job. So many bits. I think he left it all out there. The ending bit, which was hilarious, being the ending of one battle after another, where he basically says, I'm done. I'm walking off. I'm not going to do this again. I Thought he just did a pitch perfect hosting job. Tons of bits, tons of sketches, never outstayed his welcome, and was really, honestly, a relief from some of the bad bits that were going on in the actual show.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, my goodness, I was shocked. Cause here's an awards presentation where people are getting up, they are professional actors being given dialogue. And my goodness, the two Pullmans, father and son. Pullman couldn't even get any chemistry on screen with each other. I was like, what happens when you stand up there? Does just like every little bit of stage frightened paralysis. You've never felt most of your life just vanish?

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, look, there was a lot. There was a lot to unpack. I want to say this. I love the In Memoriam segment. The way that they are doing it now. I think it's really beautiful. I thought Billy Crystal did an amazing tribute. I love how they brought out cast members from all these Rob Reiner films. I thought that the tribute to Diane Keaton was really beautiful. And Catherine o'. Hara.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I definitely teared up at those.

[Paul Scheer]

Barbra Streisand managed to make it about herself, which was equal parts hilarious and also like, what are you doing? She's thanking the audience. It's like, no, no, no. You're here for Robert Red. Like, she made it more like they were giving Love Story an honorary award. Like, it was a very weird thing beyond the fact that you could not hear her saying anything.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And am I confused. I thought just Babs was her name. Like, the grand reveal that he got to call her Babs was like, wait, everybody doesn't call her Babs. I'm so confused. I just thought that was what we called her.

[Paul Scheer]

Odd. Odd all the way around. But I enjoyed it. It moved briskly. I feel like what you said is true. People got shamed in a fun way. I felt like everyone was in on it. It wasn't mean. I've read a lot of reviews where people, like, it was safe. It was. You know what? It was funny. It was fine. It was topical. I feel like it didn't press any button too much. And I. Sometimes when I. I get my. Like, I love when it goes a little bit too far. But I think Conan did a beautiful job of talking about why we are here and what we are making in the midst of doing just a hilarious monologue. My favorite being was it Caps Lock is the sequel to F1.

[Amy Nicholson]

I couldn't believe. I never thought about that. I was like, ah, you got me.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, Amy, you already alluded that you did a terrible job on your Oscar ballot. But, you know, we put together a crack group of experts. It was me, you, Harry, our intrepid producer. As also producer Molly. We also had Sidney from our social media team and our artist in residence, Kim Troxall, as well as our Discord and all of unspooled fans.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, I love our posse. We roll deep.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, they're amazing. You could actually check out the substack. You could see what the Discord and the unspooled fans voted on. But I want to tell you, coming in at last place, well, Amy, it'll be no surprise it was you. You got that? But guess what? You have a friend in last place, and that friend is Sydney. You and Sidney came in with nine correct picks, and then it jumps up to Kim with 10 correct picks. Then Harry with 11. Molly ties with the Discord for 12 correct picks. Now, here's the interesting thing about the Discord. They didn't vote on five categories, so, you know, they could have ran away with it. But you know what? I don't think anyone could have touched me. Who came in with 19 correct picks, Amy? The championship. The trophy must be returned to its rightful owner. Gimme, gimme, Treasie.

[Amy Nicholson]

I gave in last place. I had just won the trophy last year. I will give it back to you. Humiliating shame and defeat. I will go bury my head now.

[Paul Scheer]

That's right. The rightful owner takes it back again. And I will, of course, share this award with, of course, Kim Troxell, our artist in residence.

[Amy Nicholson]

She's the best. Kim, you win our prizes every day. You're just the prize winner of our lives.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, today we're gonna talk about a movie that I think a lot of people wanted to see. Win best picture. It walked away with a handful of great awards. Ryan Coogler got his first Oscar, which is amazing. We have the first female cinematographer to walk away with an Oscar for this. We got some cool things. We got a score Oscar. This movie walked away the most nominated film in Oscar history. And I believe it walked away with about. Was it four awards total?

[Amy Nicholson]

Four out of 16. I did the math. There's one way of spinning it where it's also me. It's the biggest loser. It has lost 12 Oscars, which I think is a new Oscar record for any single film.

[Paul Scheer]

I do believe, though, if you're not there to take your Oscar, it should be given to the runner up. I feel like Delroy Lindo had a look on his face like, God damn it, why don't I get this?

[Amy Nicholson]

They all Did. That was the most competitive category. I went to the one person who

[Paul Scheer]

wasn't there, and you kind of knew Sean Penn wasn't going to show up. Apparently he was meeting Zelensky in the Ukraine, which. I mean, what. I can't fault him for that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Me neither. Me neither.

[Paul Scheer]

But I. I do feel like Sinners got a lot of beautiful attention last night. I think they did one of the best Oscar musical numbers in recent memory. To do that live on stage was amazing. I was really, truly impressed by that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, same. They were just like, we enjoy how this looked in the movie. We're just gonna do it again. You can't help but think that down the line, any other year, Sinners would've taken at least half the awards. It didn't win. It was just a good year for film. It was just a tough competition. And that's what I like to see.

[Paul Scheer]

And I'll say this, you know, Sinners, obviously a horror film. A period horror film. Period horror film, musical. But, you know, horror did have a little bit of a renaissance this year. The opening of the Oscars really embraced weapons, which I thought was so cool. And what a great way to bring people in, you know, something that everyone had seen. I really thought that was one of the best opening montages since, like, Billy Crystal era.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love that. I mean, I guess I just. I feel like I'm in a good mood about how it all shook out last night.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I think we're gonna see Ryan Coogler and we're gonna see Michael B. Jordan back up there a gazillion times again. Hopefully we get to see Delroy Lindo back up there. It was a kudos to the crowd. And really, I think, to me, like, the biggest surprise of the night is I hadn't realized that Ryan Coogler was invited to join the Academy in 2016 and turned it down. And he did say that the reason why is because he just can't get behind the idea of ranking one thing above another thing that he just. He likes movies. And the fundamental premise of the Oscars, he can't buy into, like, enough that he's, like, turning down the honor of joining the Academy itself. And you know what? I thought he carried that kind of. I respect this. And I also am keeping a foot out or maybe as a theme of what we're about to even get into in this movie. I live in a world where there's a lot of compromises people have to make to survive. I will play this game live in this world. Go out for the Oscars, genuinely care if I win one, but I have my limits.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, Amy, I really love how you speak about Kug because I believe that he is the future. He is the optimism that Conan o' Brien is talking about, among many other great directors as well. But there's something so magical about him when he speaks and the way he speaks and the way that he mixes influences. I think he is somebody who loves his cast, loves his crew, and we're gonna talk about that today. So without any further ado, let's give some attention to a film that I really believe is the runner up, but we will see which film. And I actually think both of these films will have long legs in the future. These are modern day classics. They are movies. They are films. Let's talk about Sinners

[Amy Nicholson]

Unspooled is proudly sponsored by Sonos speakers. One speaker is awesome. Multiple speakers. Fill your home with seamless music and podcasts so that you never miss a word. Discover how Sonos can make your house feel more alive with [e-mail] that is

[Paul Scheer]

sonos.com Spring is upon us. That means it's time for shorts. It also means it is time for a linen pant. Oh, a linen pant. Fellas, get yourself a nice linen pant. Lately I've been a lot more intentional about what I wear day to day. I now have a partner to help me get dressed, and that partner is Quince. All right? They give you fabrics that feel elevated, fits that are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it. Now, I love quints because what they do is they use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and ultra soft denim. And they price at 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship. Now, I'll tell you, I just got some great shorts like this drawstring short from Quince that I love, but these linen pants are just sealing the deal. I love it because it's a way to be casual but a little bit dressed up. Maybe if you're going on vacation, you go to the beach or whatever you might need, get a linen pant in your rotation and get that linen pant at Quint. Refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use. Head to quince.com unspooled for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com unspooled for Free Shipping and 365 day returns quince.com unspooling

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

starting or growing your own business can be intimidating and lonely at times. Your to do list may feel endless with new tasks and lists can easily begin to overrun your life. So finding the right tool that not only helps you out but simplifies everything as a built in business partner can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all all e commerce in the US from household names like Gymshark, Rare Beauty and Heinz to brands just getting started, Shopify has hundreds of ready to use templates that can help you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. And you can tackle all the important tasks in one place from inventory to payments to analytics and more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. And if people haven't heard about your brand, you can get the word out. Like you have a marketing team behind you with easy to run email and social media campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling or strolling. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com realm go to shopify.com realm that's shopify.com realm

[Paul Scheer]

unschooled so the year is 2025. Oh Amy, I remember it like yesterday. And Ryan Coogler is looking back at his career, you know. Cause soon after college he made the indie feature film Fruitfell Station with his USC friend Ludwig Goranson as his composer and the actor Michael B. Jordan as his star. And after that, all their careers just took off. I mean, together, the three of them, with a big boost from Ryan's wife Zinzi, have made a string of major franchise hits. Creed, Black Panther and Wakanda Forever.

[Amy Nicholson]

Now that last sequel took him four years to make because of two things. One, the global disaster, the pandemic, you might remember it. And two, and more personally, the tragedy of the death of Chadwick Boseman and Ryan Coogler. He's supposed to start in on Black Panther 3, but he's also just thinking life is short. All of us are getting older. We're getting more rooted in our lives, our families. If we're ever gonna take a big swing and do a passion project, that's for us. This is the time to Seize the

[Paul Scheer]

day, because, you know, making movies takes a lot out of your life. You know, he wasn't able to be there when his great uncle James died because he was directing Creed, you know, and Ryan and his uncle were very close.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, like when Ryan was a kid, this Uncle James, he would tell them stories about his childhood back in Mississippi. He would teach Ryan about the blues, which Ryan says he did not really connect with at the time. He was like, blues, that's for the Blues Brothers. That's for like weird old white comedians. I don't get it. But after James was gone, the blues became even more important to him.

[Paul Scheer]

So around this time, when he has finished Wakanda Forever, Ryan is washing dishes and listening to this blues song called Wang Dang Doodle about a crazy all night party. And he starts to think, huh, this might be the seed of a story. A seed of a story that I want to tell tonight.

[Amy Nicholson]

We need no rest. We gonna relax for a mess. We're gonna knock down all the windows. We're gonna kick down all the doors.

[Paul Scheer]

We gonna pitch a. And that becomes Sinners. Which, I mean, obviously isn't just a direct adaptation of Wang Dang Doodle. No, it is a horror period musical Mashup Set in 1932, Mississippi, about a young blues guitarist, Sammy, aka Preacher Boy, that's played by Miles Caton, who helps his identical twin cousins, Smoke and Stack. They're both played by Michael B. Jordan. Launch a juke joint for the community

[Amy Nicholson]

and some of the friends who show up to party. You've got Miles Crush, Perleen, Smoke's ex Annie, and Stagg's childhood sweetheart Mary. They are played by Jamie Lawson, Wunmi Mosaku and Hailee Steinfeld. And there's also Delroy Lindo as the guitarist Delta Slim, Omar Benson as the bouncer Kornbread and Yao, and Lee Jun Lee as the shop owners, Bo and Grace Chow.

[Paul Scheer]

Now you think, well, what could go wrong? Everything's happening. Great. Well, guess what? No. Because outside the doors, there are three vampires who want to come in. Remik, the leader, that's Jack o', Connell, and two newly created monsters played by Peter. Now, I hope I'm going to get this name right, but probably wrong. Dramanus and Lola Kirk.

[Amy Nicholson]

It is a lot of movie. I mean, Sinners costs $100 million, but it makes $369 million, which sets a record for it being the highest grossing totally original film since Jordan Peele's us all the way back in 2017. And it gets even more records it set the record, as we were talking about earlier, for getting 16 Oscar nominations, the highest ever. And it is number 71 on the litter box top 250 films with the most fans. But you know what? I think we have talked about Sinners and Awards so much in the last couple months. Let's just talk about this as a film. Let's make a podcast that is simply eternal and not about just reacting to what happened.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I totally agree. And the interesting thing to me on this rewatch of Sinners was how much I loved it. Again, you know, I saw it in the theater and I saw it, you know, I think it was in 70 millimeter. Right. There's a whole big conversation about this. Actually, this entire awards season has been a conversation about formats. Right. We are seeing directors embrace big screen formats. And this movie played so beautifully on a big screen. And I loved it and I talked about it, but that came out last March and I do think that over the course of the year, it's just kind of drifted to the back of my mind. And rewatching it, I was just amazed at, yes, it's a big movie, but it's incredibly lean and it moves so fast. It's incredibly propulsive and it never kind of lingers anywhere too long.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, it is fast, it is fun, it is confident. It is just big movie filmmaking. I mean, lately now, when I'm picturing this film, the image in my head is just our very first shot that we get of the twins, smoke and stack. Just that movie star shot leaning against the car, little bit of banjo theme coming in. And they just look like mega superstars. It's just like, ta da, here we are. This is a big Hollywood movie and we're just going to go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that shot. And this is the first reveal that we're going to have. Two Michael B. Jordans. Two Michael B. Jordans in this film that are at points side by side in casual conversation. And this movie is directed in such a way that it never feels like a gimmick and that you truly forget that you are watching the same actor. I mean, I've had that moment numerous times. Like, oh, right, that's the same person. They're acting off of someone, obviously. But wow, it does not feel like the other is not there.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, they do give really big shout outs to. They had a guy who was the stand in and they would just put faces over him. They'd kind of shoot the scene twice and then put the face over it. But really what I was starting to pay attention to, this is the third time I've watched the film, was trying to find those differences in the performance of Michael B. Jordan. Really trying to zoom in on what makes Smoke different from Stack, because I find it a little hard to tell them apart. Not at all because of his performance, but just because of the names. I don't know why I keep getting tripped up on the names of who is who.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. No, I think I get that as well. Smoke and Stack are, you know, they're great names, but, you know, but they're reversed, man.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, I just. I cannot get over it. Smoke is the one who is dressed in blue and Stack is the one who is dressed in red. And for the freaking life of me, I just feel like the one that's about fire has to be the one dressed in red. And so I keep getting confused. Maybe this is just me, but I have been trying consciously to remember that Smoke is in blue, and I cannot. My brain is just refusing.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I think that that's kind of the beauty of the film. It's a very nuanced portrayal in the sense that they are clearly brothers. They're going to act the same like most brothers do. This isn't like Tommy Boy, right? You know, where One is clearly, oh, that's the messy one and he's the clean one. You know, they have certain things that they are focused on, but I would say they're pretty much aligned. They're working together throughout. Like, they work as one unit, right? They're not at odds. Like, not like, I think back to, like, a movie like Dead Ringers. And I feel like I could understand the differences maybe a little bit better in that one because they're trying to draw that line. The other movie that I think about all the time is oh, God, you Devil. Which, you know, clearly one was God and one was the devil, so I could tell the differences very easily.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love that movie. When I was little, oh, my God,

[Paul Scheer]

it was the best. George Burns doing two roles. How could he do it?

[Amy Nicholson]

Where I think the difference is really coming down to, though, is that Smoke is the flashy one. Stack is the kind of quieter, sterner, more protective one. And there's a line that extra popped out at me on this watch where Stack is talking to Sammy about their dad who was really abusive and what happened to their dad. Here. This is it.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Nah, we ain't killing. Smoke did. Our daddy knocked me unconscious. By the time I came to, Smoke was halfway done burning. He used to beat y' all me, most.

[Amy Nicholson]

He ain't mean it right there. That's it. That's like. That is the core of what the difference is that when they were growing up, Stack is the one who took the most abuse from his dad, and Smoke is the one who stood up and killed their dad for them. Like, Smoke is the protector and Stack is the one who is flashier but a little bit more vulnerable.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, and that's what makes the ending so amazing, because Smoke couldn't kill Stack. His dad was the abuser, and he could not do it, even though he was a vampire and was not even himself and his soul was gone. I don't think that Smoke could put himself in that position to harm his brother after having this life of protecting him.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, exactly. I think that Smoke really emerges as the character who feels the most responsibility for everyone and for everything.

[Paul Scheer]

And Smoke's responsibility and keeping people safe extends to Preacher Boy, because that was the agreement. Again, I'm talking about the end. But I do think it's really important because the movie seeds this throughout. The agreement that he makes with Stack is Don't touch Preacher Boy. And that respect between them, even in a vampiric state, he abides by. Right. There's something really beautiful about that. Like, that they have this bond. And I think it all comes from that scene that you just played.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I really think so. And it's interesting because Ryan Coogler says that he comes from a family that had a lot of twins in it. Like, his mom's older sisters are identical twins. Their names are Auntie Merlin and Auntie Serlin. And they grew up living next to each other for the rest of their entire lives. And so he was like, I understand this dynamic. He was like, what's kind of cool about twins when they move through the world is that they tend to be locally famous. Right? You're like, oh, the so and so twins. I can list basically every single pair of twins I ever went to school with because they were kind of mini celebrities, even though they were just individuals on their own. And so he seeds that into this film really well, where everyone has heard of these guys. Everyone. It's not like just Al Capone. It's like, oh, the Smokestack twins. Like, they have this reputation. They've been gone for eight years in Chicago. They come back and it's like nothing has changed.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think the way that they come back with this air of mystery is a really interesting way to introduce these characters. Cause we don't know what they have done. And we get these little, you know, asides to tell you that they might have done something really bad. They might have. I mean, ripped off two warring families to then bring the benefit of that to this town in Mississippi. Like, their world might be crumbling. We. We could be catching them in a moment right now before the end. I mean, it is the end, but you know what I'm saying, like, the way that they've come here from Chicago is a little suspect. And I think that that leads to people being impressed, in awe, and also afraid of them. And throughout the entire film, you know, smoke doesn't hesitate to. To throw down, right? You know, whether it's shooting that guy in the street for touching his car, even though he knows him. Right. And they have a relationship. But to prove a point or to strike preacher boy across the face with that gun, when preacher boy kind of talks back, like, they are lovable, they are sweet, but they are intimidating as hell.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, and even beyond the fact that they've, like, ripped off the Irish mob for beer and the Italian mob for wine, there's even a side in here where they're like, oh, and we were pimped back in Chicago. Like, they were pimped. Like, they use the word, and you're like, oh, man. And that's the thing that gets pretty close to a script saying something pretty unforgivable about a character, right? Like, that, to me, is like one of the red lines. It's like, so it goes like, here we are. And I was thinking, well, they did not name this film Saints. This film is about people who have come into this world making some choices that mean we're all kind of sinners. I mean, it's Delroy Lindo playing Delta Slim, who I think uses that line first about himself when they're making that negotiation. Back and forth about, like, how much is he gonna get paid if he's gonna skip out on his job to work for them for?

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Depend on who you ask. I'll give you $20 to come play at our juke tonight. Yeah, I wish I could. I'm going to be a messenger tonight, same as I am every Saturday night. What they pay? Well, gangster, you sure ask a lot of questions. They ain't paying you $20 a night. I know that. You ain't paying no $20 a night. You paying $20, maybe two tonight. I ain't never heard of your juke. Maybe it's here tonight. Is it here tomorrow night, the week after that? Nah, I've been to messengers every Saturday night for the last 10 years message gonna be there another 10 years after that at least. Shit, that's probably more time than I got left on this earth stack. I play and I get a as much corn liquor as I can drink. Something like me, I can't ask for more than that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, this really is though, a film that leans into the idea of, yeah, our characters are going to have done some bad shit. They're gonna have crossed a lot of lines that you're not cool with. And here they are. They're going through the world.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Experience a membership that backs your business

[Amy Nicholson]

journey with American Express Business Platinum when

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

you pay with membership rewards points for all or part of an eligible flight booked with a qualifying airline. Through Amex Travel, you can get 35% of those points back up to 1 million points back per calendar year.

[Amy Nicholson]

American Express Business Platinum there's nothing like it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] Business Platinum

[Amy Nicholson]

Expedia and visit Scotland Invite you to come Step into centuries of history that await in Scotland. Castles steeped in legend walk along cobblestone streets. Come share the warmth of stories passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Plan your Scottish escape [e-mail] VisitScotland Cheers to Sonos for sponsoring today's episode of Unspooled. I got my first Sonos speaker over a decade ago, and I have steadily added more speakers to it ever since. I love how my entire home is just connected to this one sound system that can play one song on all of the speakers at once while I'm like pottering around cleaning on a Saturday morning. Or my Sonos can divvy things up so I can watch a movie in my living room while my boyfriend blasts Norwegian Black Metal in the office. He heard me call it Scandinavian Death Metal a few weeks ago. Insisted afterward that I have to hear the distinction through the Sonos, and while neither one is still my genre, it did sound great. But we both agree on how good it sounds to have our movie nights boosted by Sonos Dolby Atmos Surround Sound. I started my home theater with one soundbar, and then I've later added two speakers to the back corners. They look great, they connect to each other easily and wirelessly. Very important, and the immersiveness they create together is just awesome. Start scoping out what Sonos speakers are right for your place. Check out sonos.com that is sonos.com

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

this

[Paul Scheer]

episode is brought to you by Pocket Hose, the world's Number one, expandable hose. People, I am a hose aficionado, and let me tell you, nothing burns my britches up more than one of these hoses that gets all these cranks, and you can't get it back nicely. And I'm just like, wrestling with this tough plastic snake. I hate it. And then along comes pocket hose. And let me tell you, pocket hose the best, because you're gonna get no kinks or creases at the spigot. They have this, like, pocket pivot that swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with absolute ease. Plus, it's super light, it's durable. You can. I mean, it doesn't take up any space. That's the best part. It is a pocket hose. I mean, you have to have a bigger pocket, but it is like when you think of hoses, you think, oh, God, it's so big, it's bulky. This thing super light, extra durable. And guess what? It's also backed with a 10 year warranty. That's right, the pocket hose. Copperhead gonna give you 10 years, okay? And I gotta tell you, this brand new pocket hose Copperhead with the pocket pivot is a total game changer. How did I find out about this? Well, I was watching T. I saw Richard Karn, you remember him from Home Improvement, doing the ads for this thing, the pocket hose, and I thought, well, I mean, looks pretty good. I mean, I'm always looking for a good hose, all right? And I was like, I don't know, though, if it's gonna actually just like go from pocket size to like full size a second. I don't think that that's possible. I was amazed. I took a risk, and guess what? It blows my mind. Richard Karn didn't lie. Okay? This thing, and this is the big part of it, it shrinks back down, right? So it expands out, shrinks back down. It's like magic, okay? No winding, no hassle. And you know what? Don't take my word for it. See it yourself, okay? I love my pocket hose. I'm never going back. It's lightweight, it's durable, and you know, whatever I'm doing with my hose, which a lot of times is cold plunge work, it is perfect for me. For a limited time, my listeners get a free pocket Pivot and their 10 pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size Copperhead hose. Just text unspooled to 64,000. That's unspooled to 64,001. For your two free gifts with purchase. Unspooled to 64,000 message and data rates may apply seat terms for details unspooled. Well, I think this movie really is about history, right? History repeating itself. Trauma being dealt down generationally and the effects that that has across the community and across relationships. And Delta kind of stands very tall as this person who is like the moral elder, right? He is the one who knows what will happen. You know, he's seen it. You know, I think that that moment when he comes across the chain gang, right, and tells a story about why they are even there in the first place. Like he is someone who has seen it all and is not going to fall victim to anything now. Has he seen vampires? No. But, you know, I think that what we see with him is the truth. Out of all these characters who are trying to be something or, you know, maybe wrapping themselves up in a different cloth, he's the one who's pretty plain about what he sees and what he does. And that doesn't mean that we all don't wrap ourselves up in who we want to be. But I feel like he's the most unvarnished.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah, but also, the way that Delroy Lindo plays him, I mean, he is just bone deep in that performance. So deep that I think in the months since I saw it, between the second time and the third time, I almost forgot how intense that performance is. I was like, oh, yeah, he's got a couple funny lines. He's weird about the garlic. He says he pooped his pants. Like, I was thinking of the funny stuff and not just how he wears that character. Like, there's no distance between himself and it's. You know, he's just so far into that role and it's. I wanna play, actually a little bit of that scene where he's talking about his past, his history, his friend who got murdered by the Klan. Because I also think in it, you hear two things. Like, one, you just hear an example of Michael B. Jordan's really economical and lightly experimental storytelling. That he's not gonna cut away and take time and spend the money shooting a flashback. He's just gonna have you hear it and imagine it in your head. But then second, I love how this scene ends where Lindo starts just drumming on the dashboard of his car. That was improvised. Like, that wasn't in the script. It was on the second to last take. He was just like, let me let some music take place of the lines I was gonna say here. And that's what I love. Because Lindo, I think, on some deep level, understood that this is a story about how you channel a lot of your pain into music and into art. And I love that he went there and that Michael B. Jordan goes with it. Like he stays in character too. When Delroy Lindo starts drumming and he tells the Sammy character like, hey, you got a guitar? Go on, go on, go play. And it just feels like this magic of a director who knows their story and the cast who knows it just as well.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

The damn fool. He took out all his money to pay for the $2 train ticket, train conductor song on Clan got a hold to him, search his pockets, found all that money, made up a story about him killing some white man for it and raping that white man's wife and a lynching right there in the railroad station. You know, they cut off the manhood. Got that guitar on your hand, don't you, boy? Come on now.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, I love that scene because, you know, I think sometimes the trap you can get caught up in film is, you know, telling, not showing. And the emotion that you see in that moment is everything that this character has been through, right? You know, he has lived through Jim Crow violence. And he has, I think, in many respects, while he is self destructive in the way that he drinks, he has fallen in line with the system, right? But he wants to be fighting against it, which is why I think his. His transformation at the end of the film is really this a beautiful piece because, and I use this term loosely, I think he is a little bit of a coward. He's afraid to rock the boat. He doesn't want to take a chance. He knows where his bread is buttered and that's what he's gonna do. Like, the biggest thing that he does is kinda, you know, salute or hype up the chain gang, you know, show them that they're not forgotten, but it's

[Amy Nicholson]

from the safety of a car that's incredibly safe because those are men with guns. But his instant reaction when Sammy starts playing a guitar is like, hey, you're in my spot. You're messing with my money. He's very protective of what is his.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's why at the end when he sacrifices himself for Sammy, you know, to get this new generation, he also is the bridge. And I want to talk about this in a second, but a bridge between the worlds and him and Sammy together. That whole sequence we need to dive into. But I wanted to go back for Delroy Lindo and just say, while I think that this performance is so impressive, I was having trouble remembering much of it as the talk of awards were coming around. I love Delroy Lindo, but, yeah, same.

[Amy Nicholson]

I had the same weird thing.

[Paul Scheer]

What does he do? And it really is. And the rewatch, like you said, understated, small, beautiful. It's not a showy. I don't think anyone here is really showy, because I think in rewatching it, I was like, oh, right, she's fantastic. He's fantastic. Wow. They're fantastically. There isn't a bad performance in this film. I mean, you know, and you have people here that are doing their first performances, like, I mean, Miles Canton, who plays Sammy. That's his film debut. Right. Like, working against, you know, Delroy Lindo, who's been around forever. You know, Michael B. Jordan playing these two roles. You have Hailee Steinfeld playing something that I felt like was so nuanced and so interesting. I'm just continually impressed by this cast because no one's stealing focus. It's like, to your point, everyone is working together to create this, like, tapestry. There is no star. And I think that that's also the reason why for a long time, people were like, oh, yeah, it should go to Chalamet. Like, no.

[Amy Nicholson]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Paul Scheer]

Hold on. Wait a second. This performance, Michael B. Jordan, it's almost like you have to see it again or be shown a thing because it goes down so simple and smooth.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're right. It's such an ensemble that everybody's kind of pulling together, and nobody really gets to pop until you watch and study it again.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, and I mean, even Annie. I love Annie's performance. Who is, you know, Annie Woo and Mimozaka. Yeah, yeah, she is. I mean, watching her this time, there's something. So I love that relationship that she has, you know, with Smoke and the trauma of losing this son and her belief in these elements. Do they work? Do they not? I mean, I don't know. I think that they do. But are they always going to work? I don't know. Right. Cause it's like, obviously, you know, at the end, Smoke, you know, pulls off the amulet or the bag that is protecting him, and that's where he kind of has his final stand. And I feel like even in pulling that off, it's because he believes in what she has given him. So he doesn't want to die with that on, because I think it would prove it to be fake.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Or he really accepts that he's going to die, and he wants to make sure that he's with. He doesn't want to live without her. I think you know, he's like, don't keep me safe. Let me join you guys. Which means he goes on this really beautiful arc, you know, like their first debate, when they're still really testy with each other before they make up in a lovely and sexy way, is about this thing. He only believes in seeing the world on the literal surface. She only believes in seeing it in the magical surface.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

I ain't never saw no roots, no demons, no ghosts, no magic. Just power. And only money can give you that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Me fool, all that war and whatever the hell she been doing in Chicago, and you back here in front of me. Two arms, two legs, two eyes, and a brain at work. How you know I ain't pray?

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

I work every route.

[Amy Nicholson]

My grandmama taught me to keep you and that crazy brother yours safe every day since you've been gone. Yeah. So what I love about the ending is that's him saying, you know what? I'm taking her side. I want to join her. I want to be with her. And he's sitting there at the ending, trying to lean in, I think, even to this magical world, like, trying to be like, okay, I see my baby. I hear my baby. I see the woman I want to be with. And then the clan guy shows up and he's like, let me try to pull you back to mine. Don't you want to talk about money? I got money for you. And he is so annoyed.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, listen,

[Amy Nicholson]

I got money. Huh? Those gunshots, the way this movie uses Smoke's reactions, almost just as like, comedy punchline that he doesn't pause before shooting that guy in the ass. He doesn't pause before shooting Hailee Steinfeld. He doesn't pause before shooting this guy. I really appreciate that. Ryan Coogler doesn't try to build up a bunch of tension by saying, should he or shouldn't he? Oh, no, he's holding the gun. What are we gonna do?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, he's just like, boom.

[Amy Nicholson]

He goes for it is action based. Like, character reveal through action, not character reveal through hemming and hawing.

[Paul Scheer]

And I also think that that recommits you to the violence of it. Right? By being so quick, you're not ready to. You're not pausing, you're not waiting for it. It's just like, oh, my God. And you have the after effects of it. I want to also just circle back and say, I think in the way that Smoke frees Stack to live a life like he did with his father. And his father is being abusive. He also bends to Annie and kills her in violence, in a very violent way. Because he knows that that's what she wants. It's a really interesting thing that you're wrestling with. Right. Because it's like he will kill the love of his life because he knows that she needs that. But he would never do that to his brother. Even though, you know, like, I believe that he still thinks there's good in Stack or there's a piece of Stack that needs to be saved. It's just an interesting that these two important people, he, you know.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. That he reacts differently to each one of them.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

And it's almost like the movie, I think, is of two minds about whether or not being a vampire is maybe okay. I think the movie thinks maybe being a vampire maybe isn't that bad. Maybe. Right. Like, Annie doesn't definitely want to do it, but when. I mean, the way the vampires react when he kills Annie, they are so mad at him because it's like, you ruined it for her. You ruined it for us. We could have been a family again. Like the anger in Hailee Steinfeld's voice. I want to play it because she's so mad.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

No, no, no.

[Paul Scheer]

Let's go,

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

let's go.

[Amy Nicholson]

Come on. I mean, in that scene, the Hailee Seinfeld Mary character is acting like he has killed Annie. Like he killed her for the first time. She was going to be fine. They seemed all in on this idea of afterlife and community.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, I love this idea of the way that Coogler looks at his vampires. Right. They act very much like the vampires that we know with some other ideas attached to it. Right. The idea that one soul is pushed down and this communal, like, hive mind is formed. So much so that, you know, in that final battle in the swamp, you know, when Remic gets hit in the head, they all feel it, Right. They all are like, oh, you know, they. They are one. And I do think. I think that this movie isn't trying to say that being a vampire is a good thing as much as it acknowledges that that is something that happens in life. And what I mean by that is, you know, this movie is in many respects a movie about gentrification and that kind of assimilation that just happens. It's going to happen. You can't stop it. And when you talk to Ryan Coogler, he'll say, like, you know, he grew up where the Black Panthers came from. You know, he was very cognizant of the effects of capitalism. And so he was like, whether or not I thought about that, I don't Know, but it's a part of like the work that I do. But I think that this movie is doing something interesting because it's not about a white vampire. It's about this Irish vampire, right? This Irish vampire who clearly has seen some fucked up stuff, right? Like Irish people did not have a free pass, right? But yet now they are turning another marginalized culture, right? So it's like the, like the. Sorry, what? I want the not cultures. I want to say what's the term? When it's not the greater. It's the. What's the term for that? Like, it's not, it's not stereotype. It's. No, it's like, like white. It would be majority. Like a minority. Sorry. For God. Wow, it took me a second. Sorry. So I think it's really interesting that like here the minorities are kind of eating each other in and the idea being like, oh, and that will make us stronger, but yet it's also

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

taking

[Paul Scheer]

away everything unique about them.

[Amy Nicholson]

Right. With the hive mind. But it's also kind of saying we're not going to just take it as default that being alive is better, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because being alive is really hard here too. I mean, by living forever, that means that Stack and Mary get to stay together. They couldn't be together in this period. They had to like hide it. They had to stay apart, they had to marry somebody else. They stay alive, then they can grow up and live in an era where it's more acceptable to be in a relationship. And so there's a benefit there too. I think the movie acknowledges that and

[Paul Scheer]

I think that that's why Remick is so masterful. There's a great quote that Coogler had about it where he's like, you know, I wanted a vampire who has been affected by a lot of shit. No one is more shrewd than a person who's been fucked over. And that kind of history of subjugation, you know, gives him this empathy for, I think for community that is a minority, right? Like he, he can speak to black and Chinese and mixed heritage people and saying like, hey, we were you. Like, we're going to give you the freedom that you really want. Like, it's not like, come to our side and it's good. It's like, come to our side and we'll be stronger. And I think that there's a part of that kind of, you know, want, you know, that's what I think is so interesting about the film is that he is continuing the trauma, passing down that Trauma and continuing to, you know, subjugate people. Like, he was subjugated.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I think it leaves it up to you, too, to decide. Like, do you believe him when he's making his arguments? I mean, I do think vampires are crafty and slippery and they try different ways to get you to do what they want. Like, I love it when Kornbread is trying to convince everybody to let him inside. And he's not just talking like some sort of lawyer, you know, he's talking like Kornbread would. He's like, I had to do this. I had to do this. Come on, let me in. And he's like, needling people right where he knows their weaknesses are and you can't tell, I guess, necessarily, is he being sincere when he's like, hey, this is what vampire life is, and what

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

is it we supposed to be doing? Being kind to one another and being polite.

[Paul Scheer]

Now we is one peoples, and we

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

shouldn't go in barging into other folks, places uninvited.

[Amy Nicholson]

So that being kind moment is so funny because it's kind of the last thing you expect a vampire to use as his argument. You know, it's like, oh, you can be immortal and live forever. You can be hyper glamorous, you can gain riches, blah, blah, blah. He's like, no, we're nice to each other. And I don't think the movie puts its thumb on the scale to say, like, he's 100% telling you the truth or he's 100% lying.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, but I think what he is playing with, and I think it's very specific why these vampires are this way. This hive mind is community, right? The whole movie's about community, right? Smoke and Stack are building a club just for us, right? They say that, you know, when they go. When, you know, Smoke go. Is it smoke that goes? No, Stack, when Stack goes to the train station and, you know, says, like, this is for us. You know, it is a place where everyone can be themselves. And that's why, you know, they have this issue about the money. Well, we can't. That's not real money. And we're taking, like, field coins. And it's like, who cares? This is about our community. And what the vampires are offering is come with us for eternal community. We will, like, we will save you in that. Like, that's. To me, what I see is the fuel of this entire movie. You know, it's. It's. That's what pulls them in. You know, it's not like you can have all the money and the power that you want. It's like, no, like, to your point, Amy, like, you can date this girl, you can live this life, and you can forever have community, instead of, to your point, having the hard time of what life is as a person who is a minority in a world where things have gone really badly, you know, or so far, have gone really badly.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I really like Remick's monologue about that.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

This world already left you for dead. Won't let you build. Won't let you fellowship. We will do just that. Together forever. It's better this way, baby. So why don't you go ahead?

[Amy Nicholson]

And that's a theme that also stack after he's bitten, kind of picks up. He's like, yeah, we were never free. We keep saying we're free. We keep acting like we're free. We are not free. We have not had a chance to be free. And this is the way out.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think this is maybe where we probably both are wrestling with the idea of this film. Because you're right. It's not like saying vampires are right, but it's an interesting pitch because they are erasing people, but they are creating a community. And I think that that's kind of like. I'm trying to think of the right word, like an assimilation. Right. That's capitalism or colonialism. Right. You are taking away the individuality, and you're creating a larger culture that now is a little bit more watered down. And I feel like that's maybe the cost. Like, is it worth the cost to make life easy? But you give away what makes you unique.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, that's interesting you see it that way. Because as you're talking about that, I guess the scene I'm picturing is when we're outside with the vampires, they're throwing a party. Remik is. He's doing his gigantic river dance, which I think is so fun. I want to listen to a little bit.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, I love it so much.

[Amy Nicholson]

But what I like about that scene is they're all sharing in his culture and having a blast with it, too. Like, it almost feels like their cultures are just, like, building stronger together. He finishes his river dance, and everybody runs up and they're, like, giving him a hug. Like, he just shot a three pointer to win the game. I think that's adorable. And I think it's that Jack is doing his own dancing. He is really a professional dancer from when he was a child.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Full disclosure, I did go to Irish dance lessons as a whippersnapper, and there were, like, tournaments as well. Jumping jack was locally known as jumping jack.

[Paul Scheer]

Jumping jack, yeah.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Yeah. Great to roll back the years and. Yeah, unfill that one again.

[Amy Nicholson]

Did they add the jig because of your experience, or was that just a coincidence?

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

It was in there. It was in the script. It was already in there. So, yeah, much of my surprise. Yeah. That's crazy. Oh, yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

All right. It wasn't that long ago. 20 years is doable. This is doable.

[Amy Nicholson]

I am all about people who come to Hollywood with their own very specific set of skills.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, I love it. It always impresses me so much. Reminds me of that episode we talked about with Being John Malkovich, when John Cusack is that puppeteer who's really looking for that mainstream success. Not that he was in Hollywood, but. Yes. But, you know, as we keep on talking about that, even that dance sequence, I guess this movie is asking a question that it doesn't necessarily answer, which is, is community bad? And community can be seen in multiple lights, Right. Like, religion is a community. You go to church and then you have a set of morals and standards that kind of take away from you being an individual. Right. And this movie is saying, like, oh, being a part of any community robs you of your individuality. Yet I don't think this movie, you know, is arguing for segregation either. Right. But I do think it's the allure that you can get caught in with, you know, with these larger things, like, oh, well, it will be easier if we all work together. And then all of a sudden, you've changed the way that you are, the way that you share, because it's not societally acceptable anymore. I can look at that with religion. I can look at that through, you know, gentrification, like, oh, I love this area. It's so cool. It's mom and Pop. And then all of a sudden, there's a target down the street, or all of a sudden, you know, there's a blue bottle coffee that's moved in and everything changes. But the quaintness is now just the idea that it was quaint before you got there. Right. There's so much to unpack about the danger of community. And maybe the idea of this movie or what it's saying is you have to be aware when you give yourself over to any group of people because. And maybe this is a. You know, it always goes back to filmmaking. Right, Amy? It's like, here's Ryan Coogler doing this movie after doing three franchise pictures in a row and saying, I gave myself over to Community Creed, Black Panther, Marvel, and did I lose Fruitvale Station in the process? And I see that as being kind of the issue that he's wrestling with, too. Before I get too rooted, before I need to take the next Marvel movie, or before I can't make or say something where I'm still in touch with who I was, because community has robbed me of that voice. Because now I'm in a bigger system where people are, for lack of a better term, kissing my ass and telling me I'm great. Like, what? That. That's, I think, at the core of this, too.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I do think Grant Coogler is really aware of. Of what he has come to this business to do because kind of a little bit of his backstory. He's a guy who was a star football player in college. Zindsi, his future wife, she was like a star track runner. He saw her kick a bunch of ass, and he was like, that girl's amazing. So he got her number. Their first date was to see Bring it on, which is just adorable. And they got really into watching movies together. They really had each other's back on being creative and pushing each other. They stayed together from high school, college. And he started to feel this urgency. He was like, I'm a football player in college. I'm actually really good at playing football. But I'm beginning to feel like the movies need younger voices to speak up, you know, that I feel like I see a lot of movies where older people are saying how young people feel about things. I feel a responsibility. If I'm interested in being a movie maker when I grow older, I should just quit football now and get into it now so that I'm not old when it's my turn to tell young people stories. And so he made this really big call, and it's impressive. Zinzi backed him. She bought him his first copy of Final Draft Pro for 300 bucks.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

And they were like, okay, we're doing this. And he just really committed to positioning himself as somebody who can tell stories about the young people that he knew. And that's how something like a Fruitvale happens. And he makes it with young people. He makes it with everybody he knows from college. I love how he's been with Ludwig and Michael B. Jordan since he was young. I mean, this is a guy who, like, he is the person who married Ludwig when Ludwig got married. Like, he was the officiant, and I like this nucleus that he's formed. So, yeah, I 1,000% agree. Like, I think he feels this responsibility, too. Like, who am I in this industry? I'm here to do a specific thing.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that the interesting thing about him as a filmmaker is in making films that are big films, right. Creed and Black Panther, he has retained that unique auteurship about what he is saying. It's in a bigger picture. And I love when you listen to him speak, he's very aware of what his job is. His job is to get asses in the seats. And I think that that is his job self imposed, like. Cause he knows how important it is. Like, yes, he could make five more Fruit Veils, but that's not gonna move the needle as much as. I mean, Black Panther is truly a film that I think when you look back in the pantheon of films is going to be marked as a defining moment for what it did culturally. Right. Like for, you know, for kids to see themselves. For black kids to see themselves in a movie in a. In. In this culture and to be enveloped in this thing in a mainstream way. It was. I mean, it seems almost not passe now, but it's like it was. It was huge. Huge. And it still continues to have those reverberations. But I mean, what he did there is. Is wild and amazing and impressive.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah, and I think he does the same thing here. Like, this movie has a gazillion ideas in it. Gazillions of ideas in it. And it is entertainment first and foremost. Like, boom. The entertainment comes first. The pacing, the jokes, the comedy, the horror, the scares, the jump scares. Like he is not at all embarrassed to be making a big, popular, fun film.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, here's the funny thing. You know, you say that and I am remembering the first time I saw this film and I stopped very early. And I, like you, don't try to know too much about anything before going into it. I knew there was a musical element to it. I knew it was a period piece. I did not know about the vampires. And watching this movie and the reveal of that was shocking because you're watching for about 30, 40 minutes and there's no sign that that's what is gonna be. And I was like, oh, I'm very happy to be in this movie. I'm enjoying these characters. Great. And then I'm like, wait, what? And then it's a whole other movie. You know, it's like that to me. I love that I had that experience that I didn't know it was a genre horror film.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And the way that he does it is strange too, right? Because usually in a vampire film where there's a bunch of people who are suddenly surprised that there are vampires. You have to stop the movie for like, what, five, ten minutes and explain everything. Here's what they do, here's how they act, here's what's going to go on. He short circuits all of that because I think he's like, I know. The audience knows. So I'm just gonna have Wunmi Mosako's character. Annie knows. Annie knows what's up. Annie's gonna tell him. Annie's just gonna jump right in to eat garlic and kill them right now so that we don't have to go through that little beat. Because I want to keep this entertaining.

[Paul Scheer]

And that sequence is full of restraint. I remember the film really embracing this vampire tech. But it's in the context of the whole film, it's relatively quick. It doesn't go on for a ridiculous amount of time. There is something really refreshing about that. Just because you have a vampire fight scene in this barn, they don't abuse it. They spend much more time around it. Like, you know, the acknowledgement that, okay, we know that they're here now, we know that they've taken other people. I wouldn't even say it's tension as much as they're building up, but when the fight actually starts, when the barn doors open and they go for. Seems quick.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Like I think I was expecting or stealing myself for there to be. Yeah, five minutes of vampire explanation. It may be a whole 10 minutes of, do we let them in or not? What do we do? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's a touch of that. And then straight away, you know, the Grace character is like, nah, nah, we're not hemming and hawing over this. Let's get it over with right now. And she screams,

[Paul Scheer]

You. What the hell you doing?

[Amy Nicholson]

And can I say, there is so much happening. As soon as she yells and is like, come on, any motherfuckers. That it really wasn't until the third watch that I was like, wow, this woman just saw her husband get eaten by vampires. Or is aware that her husband is eaten. And she's like, I'm not playing around. You come in, doors throw open, she has a Molotov cocktail. She runs straight to her husband and burns them both to death. Immediately. Just boom. Just boom, right? She does not hesitate. And there's something so metal and so gnarly about that. You have to respect it. This character just goes from like, zero to a thousand.

[Paul Scheer]

And I feel like it's the rage, right? There's A part of this movie that is, I think about fuck you. I've done everything right and I still can't catch a break or I am still gonna get fuck. I think that there's an element of I fit into your society. I did the right things, I didn't mess this up. And I don't know, I really am. I think I buy that explosion. I buy why she is so angry in that moment.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, you kind of get the sense that these aren't characters who have to think that much about what their principles are because they're living in a society where they just think about it every day. What am I willing to do and why and how much am I willing to make myself uncomfortable? I mean, that tracking shot that we have that introduces us to the Grace character early on, where the daughter leaves one store, crosses the street, gets grace, Grace walks back all the way across the street. I am also slow because at first I was like, oh, we're just watching a cool tracking shot. Awesome. And then I was like, oh, the reason why they have two shops is because there's one shop that's for black customers and one shop that's for white customers. And this tracking shot is showing me the ridiculousness of what these people have to put up with that they have to have two stores, they can't have one. And it takes that long because I guess I'm that slow to catch up on what's happening.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, the movie isn't trying to hit you over the head with it. It's like you're living in it. And I think when you live in it, you don't comment on it every single chance you get. Unless you are on social media all the time, you know?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. That's why I had a feeling when I saw the movie for the first time that it was almost like Ryan Coogler, Coco Chanel'd it where he went through the script and then was like, what line is too extra? And he took it out. And he took it out and he took it out and he was like, that's there. It's a cross. I don't need it.

[Paul Scheer]

Your summer starts now with Memorial Day deals at the Home Depot. It's time to fire up summer cookouts with the next grill 4 burner gas grill on special. Buy for only $199 and entertain all season with the Hampton bay West Grove 7 piece outdoor dining set for only $499. This Memorial Day, get low prices guarantee at the Home Depot while supplies Last price invalid May 14th through May 27th US only exclusion supplies. See homedepot.com Pricematch for details.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

All new drinks are now at McDonald's

[Paul Scheer]

with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher

[Amy Nicholson]

and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with Popping

[Paul Scheer]

Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all now at McDonald's.

[Paul Scheer]

Refreshers contain caffeine. Copyright 2026 the Coca Cola Company Sprite is a registered trademark of the Coca

[Amy Nicholson]

Cola Company Hair changes it can creep up on you. You might notice more strands in your comb or in the shower. Your hairline doesn't look quite the same as it used to. Hair health is connected to what is happening inside your body. Things like stress, nutrition, hormones, aging. And that is exactly where Nutrafol focus is. Nutrafol supports healthy hair from within. It is physician formulated, clinically tested and recommended by dermatologists with hair growth supplements that are tailored to men at every age. Because the root causes of hair thinning change over time, your routine, it should change too. Nutriful men for ages 18 to 49 helps improve hair growth and achieve thicker, fuller hair in three to six months. The new Nutrafol Men 50 plus is the first and only hair growth product specifically formulated for men 50 and up. Neutrophil is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. It's trusted by over 1.5 million people. So start Neutrophil today and make the hat optional. Visit nutrafold.com and enter promo code unspooled for $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement [e-mail] that's spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code unspooled that's nutiful.com promo code unspoold.

[Paul Scheer]

Let's talk about the big dance number because I think this is like worthy of a couple minutes here because this I lied to you song, the centerpiece of the film, this moment that the, I would argue is the entire plot of the movie, right? There are these musicians that come along that are so transformational that can essentially unite the past, present and future all in one. Like, it creates a. It creates a communal timeline. And you know, you're hearing that in the beginning of the film and you're just kind of watching it and you understand like, okay, they're storytellers and music plays an important part in it. But you See it play out. And obviously, Preacher boy is someone that is being told, you have a gift. You need to play. Preacher boy's father obviously does not want him to play because he's a preacher. And he knows that opening up or having that power is actually a dangerous power, too. And you know, this moment where he plays and you get this, you know, this oner where you're watching. I mean, musically, it's like blues, like funk, hip hop, you know, it's rock, I don't know, it's everything. It's West African drum music, right? The gospel. There's so much in this, and it all fits so perfectly together. And I feel like what's really interesting in this scene is as you're watching everyone dance, they are not one, but yet they are coming one in the music as opposed to the song outside that Remik is hosting, right? Remik is like. They all seem to be. They're dancing, right? They're not dancing the exact same way. But there's a difference in these dances, right? The communal dance versus a dance that recognizes all the differences and everyone is still an individual. Because, you know, that moment is incredibly, you know, unique and special to each one of those cultures.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I like how they don't cheat it. You know, not only is what the Annie character saying overlapping so well with what the images are, you know, like here, as soon as she gets to the word future, like that is when you hear the guitar come in.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

There are legends of people born with

[Amy Nicholson]

the gift of making music so true it can pierce the veil between life

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

and death, conjuring spirits from the past.

[Amy Nicholson]

Beyond that. I have rewatched that scene so many times, and I love how the cinematography doesn't cheat at all. One of the first things that you see is the guy in the Kangol hat kind of jump into the center of the room. He's there. You can see him kind of in the corner right before it starts. Like, he's already in place to do this. They don't use just like digital ba tump and how he's here. He creeps in and how perfect is that? I can't imagine the choreography and the staging of this.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, then I think in this moment, right, you have this argument about, like, music is immortal. Music opens up everything. Music shows us our past, present and future. And I think the vampires are kind of short, or maybe like short selling that or cheating it by, you know, like, this is more. It feels like we were talking about the testament of an Lee a while ago. Like that Power of, like, it's like a religious experience, right? They're just being moved by everything. And I think that when you put the vampire attack after this, it feels like, oh, they are gonna rob them of this. They're gonna suck all of this in. And where it was special, you know, through Sammy, now they would all have that power.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy. I don't think so. Like, I think he says to Sammy, we will share in you and your music, and you will also share in ours. I think I really like the vampires a lot more than you do. Because when I see them staring at this shot of the building on fire, and they're looking at it as though the building is now gone. They're seeing right through it, almost like with X ray vision. I love that. It's just like this literalization of like, yeah, the roof's on fire. We did it. This party's so hot. When I look in the eyes of Remik, he looks stoked. He's like, I love these people. I want to hang out with these people.

[Paul Scheer]

You see, now I look at it like, Remick is like, I can use this to forward my agenda. Like, I can get them, and this is going to be great. Like, I think you could draw a line too. Like, this is what happened in music, right? Like, you have all these white producers coming in, taking black music and then selling it and cutting out the musician. They get rich, and the musician just doesn't. And I feel like there's an exploitation. I feel like what he sees there is a diamond. Like, ooh, this will make me stronger. If I have this in my arsenal, I become better. But it's not about, I need their individuality. It's like, I just need to co op what they're doing. That's how I see it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Huh? I mean, I like that he doesn't explain it. So we can come out of it with two different, completely semifinals. And by the way, this is a great time to shout out the podcast the History of rock and 500 songs, which really gets into how blues turned into rock and roll. And it never, ever, ever, ever shies away from a conversation about capitalism and people not getting paid what they are worth. And I think that what I admire about this film is that Ryan Coogler doesn't create a fantasy world that he wants to live in. He lives in this world. Like this movie. Yes. There's about community and what can we do and how can we bring people together? But you're never far Away from the need to talk about money. The twins are divided on this. You know, one twin is like, let the community come in even if they don't have official money because they're working for plantation owners who aren't paying them in actual cash. The other twin is like, we need money, otherwise this is gonna close. And then what's the point of any of this? We can't keep this. We can't keep community together if we don't have money. And you have to talk money. You know, it doesn't shy away from talking money.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, the money. There's that whole sequence where Stack is making that deal with the girl and saying, hey, do you want to watch my car? Give you 10 cents. And she's like, okay, you got it. And he's like, no, no, no. There's money is always conversation.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

And I'm gonna pay you 10 cents for every minute that I'm gone. Will that work for you?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yes, sir.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

No, ma'.

[Amy Nicholson]

Am.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

See, we talking numbers now. And numbers always gotta be in conversation with each other. You understand? You gotta negotiate now. 10 cents just won't work for you. Talk another number back to me. 50 Cent, 20 cents. Best I can do. We gotta deal. Good. Jump in.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. He is teaching her how to do it. Right?

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's like one of the best ways you can protect people is to teach them how to talk this language of money.

[Paul Scheer]

Know your worth knowing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Exactly. And I think that Ryan Coogler very much knows his worth. And I think that that's reflected in how he cut the deal. To be like, I get the rights back to this in 25 years, 100%,

[Paul Scheer]

like one of the best deals ever, you know, and it's a smart deal. And, you know, I know we've already talked about it at length, but the idea that, you know, this is a movie that people thought before it came out was gonna fail, But I think what people don't realize is, like, when it comes from such a personal place, from a person who knows how to make big budget movies, it can't. Right. Because he can make all those things that might push you away. Incredibly personal. Right. Like. Or incredibly relatable. And that's why you're saying there's a million ideas in here. Yeah. The movie is like, let's. Let's put them all on the table. You could take whatever you want. If you want to take them all, then great, take them all. But if you relate just to one thing. You want to come in and watch a vampire movie, I'm going To pay that off 100%. You want to just look at hot Michael B. Jordan. I'm gonna give you that, too, right? I'm give you romance. I'm gonna give you, like. I'm gonna give you sex. I'm gonna give you music, like, every element. You can come out feeling like you got your money's worth.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, it is sexy. I really admire that about it. It does not shy away from it. And what I think is fun, too, is. I mean, these guys, they come in like, hey, we're macho. We know about women. We're, like, into this whole world. But. But our main advice on how to be good to women is, like, you gotta please your woman. We will talk to you about how to please your woman. And that is in detail. And that becomes the runner about sex. It's almost never about their pleasure, although they're definitely having a good time. They always. It's always framed through her. And that's also, I think, how the movie functions. These guys show up, they're macho, they run around, and then slowly, all these women enter the film, and then they take over.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I also love that moment where, you know, the shopkeeper's husband is playing cards, and the wife comes over. He's like, let's dance. He's like, yep, got it. Let's go. Like, he's not like, no, give me a second. I'm in the middle of something. Like, at the end of the day, like, she's more important than money or cards or anything, right? I love that idea. Like, the women are on a pedestal here. And while you can still have a complex relationship with them, pushing them away, pulling them in like, it's not like they are. You know, it's a very. It's multifaceted. I do want to just go back to the music for a second, too. Cause we talked about Ludwig Goranson, who he's worked with since the very beginning on this one. His wife, Serena Goranson, receives her first credit as a music supervisor. And I think that Ludwig thought, oh, this is not a movie I'm gonna have to work that hard on. And, you know, in the sense of I'll come down every now and then, we'll talk about stuff, and then realize, oh, I need to move to New Orleans. And we have to figure this out. Because there's, like, 29 distinctive musical moments that are in this film. And they really were aware of not making it feel like a musical. They wanted it to be authentic and organic, like a part of the life of the movie. Diegetic to a certain degree, and figuring out, like, how do we create these? How do we create this tone, these songs? And I think they hire these brilliant musicians in here to capture that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I love it when you get the metal notes. Like, the metal notes come in as the vampires start running up to the first house to make their kill. Which, in one of the first edits of the movie that was the opening shot, was Remik running up to make more vampires. I like that they bury it halfway through. It's such a twist. But they signify it with, like, dun, dun, dun, that heavy metal, which. I mean, Ludo Goranson, he talks about heavy metal as, like, one of his foundational influences right here.

[Paul Scheer]

And then When I was 8 or 9, I heard inner Sandman for the first time by Metallica, and that's when I got really passionate about music.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

And.

[Paul Scheer]

And I also. It was kind of my own thing. Like, my dad was into the blues and. And I was into heavy metal. And at that also, that age, I didn't even understand that, like, old music, you know, even heavy metal, it all comes from the blues.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, this combination, right? Oh, yeah, the blues and then the music that comes out of the blues, this line of everything that creates, then mashing them back together, it feels like this is a score. And I tried to put this into words in my review. That comes from almost like the deep part of the American psyche. It's like all our music united.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, no, absolutely. And what I'm even more impressed with, this is a movie where the music is stunning. And I love every one of his scores, Ludwig's scores. But this one is interesting in the sense that they started off with Zero music in March and they started shooting in April, which meant that they had to get so much music done because it is organic to the film. And there's stories of, you know, like, Raphael, Siddiq and Ludwig, like, getting a song out in two hours, you know, and people are hearing this story and getting so affected by the story that they're inspired to write these pieces. So there's a part of me that also goes back to that bigger song. When everything is mixing together, it's like, oh, music is this uniting force. Music is this moment that when people hear the trauma, the story, the idea of what's going on, they're so inspired, they can tap into this giant tapestry of music to create it. I'm just blown away by how quickly the music was put together.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah, and it's amazing that this movie has such A respect for music, that it managed to convince the great, great, great, great, great blues guitarist Buddy Guy to play Sammy when he's older in the 1992 flash forward. And Buddy Guy, just to put this in context, he's 88. When he agrees to make this movie, he's like, I don't read, I don't read scripts.

[Paul Scheer]

I.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're gonna have to give me these lines, put em in my ear if I even say yes. And I don't really know who you are, Ryan Coogler. Because the last movie I ever saw in theaters was, and this is his quote, the fish movie, which he meant Jaws. Like, he's like, I do not care about this artistic medium in the slightest. But they got his blessing and they shot this club that kind of looks like the club that Buddy Guy himself owns in Chicago. Buddy Guy, by the way, is still very with it. He's gonna be playing here in Los Angeles, I think it's September, at the Hollywood bowl for his 90th birthday, which is amazing. But yeah, this movie's respect for the art form of blues is just baked all the way in to have him here kind of closing us off, rounding it out. And I love it when you look in the club in the background, he's named it after Perleen. That like, you know, this character stays with him this whole time.

[Paul Scheer]

And I love that the end moment is like, that was the best day of my life. Even though I lost everything, every one of my friends, every thing that made me safe, that was. I mean, I get chills thinking about that. Like, it's such a beautiful moment, especially from an old man, to hear that

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

maybe once a week I wake up paralyzed, reliving that night. But before the sun went down. I think that was the best day of my life. Was it like that for you? No doubt about it. Last time I seen my brother leave. Last time I seen the son.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And you know, right. Even before that, they're like, do you want to live forever? And he's like, nah, I've seen enough, you know, I've seen what this world has to offer. And that's where I think, yeah, we are looking at the same movie but from these slightly different angles, you and me, of how much do we really think this movie is saying that the world has to offer?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I want to talk about one other thing before we wrap up, because I think it's important in the grand scheme of what this movie is about. But the first people who reject the vampires, I think are incredibly important to the Entire story here, which are the Choctaw Native Americans, right? They come, they're ignored by the white man, essentially, right? Because, you know, these white men, they are. We find out later that this guy is like part of the Klan. They're gonna come and kill Smoke and Stack later on, right? But they dismiss these Native Americans who are coming there saying, like, hey, I'm telling you, like, there is time for, we're here to save you. We care about you. And they are ignored. I think that that's really interesting.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I also like, too, that he doesn't make these characters prove that they're good guys by sacrificing themselves to save these other yahoo's life. It's like, we tried, okay, cool. We're gonna take care of ourselves and go home.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. And I think that, you know, by the way, just in the general sense, everything that Coogler does in this film is so period specific and smart and locked in culturally. And that's the same thing for the Choctaw Indians where he used choc to actors and consultants and language coaches, traditional sashes. And, you know, many people have come out and said, like, this is a beautiful tribute. This is like, this is, you know, indigenous writers, you know, say, like, this is never kind of shown again for a very small part of the movie. A very. Not even, I wouldn't say inconsequential, but it does speak about something, right? Like, the Native Americans can stave off and keep things trapped. I think this movie does celebrate that in addition to celebrating their culture by actually portraying it the right way.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah. Ryan has said the only false thing in this movie is the vampires. I mean, you could also say, like, part of the reason that the Chao family is here is because Xin Zi found out that she actually has Mississippi Delta Chinese heritage in her family from, I believe, her father's side. And so they're like, oh, that's amazing. We have to represent that in here as well. I love just like, kind of putting it together. What a huge inspiration Zinzi has been to him throughout his whole career. I mean, this is the first film that I think she's credited on as being like, I am a producer, but she's just had his back, like, this whole time. I mean, part of why Bianca in Creed has a hearing loss and hearing impairment is because that's something that also is happening in Zinzi's family. And she studied asl. And I just love how you feel this full world in Ryan Coogler's movies because he's just looking and listening and loving people and paying attention. And I've probably said this story before, but I have this really sharp memory of being in Sundance many years ago, like 10 years ago. And my Uber driver was talking about all the people he had driven around at Sundance, and he mentioned driving around Ryan Coogler and Zinzi Coogler, and he was like, what I loved about driving them around through Sundance was that Ryan kept asking Xinzi what she thought of things and being like, okay, what do you think? And, like, really listening to her opinion first. And I was like, oh, man. You feel that in this movie?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, absolutely. I think that this is, like, every relationship in this movie is shown as a true partnership.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's. And yet it doesn't sacrifice at all the idea that, like, this is hot. You know, I mean, I love the Hailee Seinfeld character. I think she's so funny the way she comes and is just enchanted to, like, see all of her old friends. And you believe her rage and you believe her anger. You believe everything about her. She also, by the way, sang a song for the soundtrack that they didn't use. And I can kind of see why. It's called Dangerous. Why am I so dangerous

[Paul Scheer]

to you?

[Amy Nicholson]

You know I'm gonna let you in don't you worry, I'll find it. Give me one night One dance, one sip Give me one night no tears in your eyes Give me one night with your hands on this Give me one bite and don't be shy but you know what? Our girl can sing. Good for her. Oh, and also, by the way, weird fun fact about just the costuming of all of the characters in the background, These prohibition era costumes, a lot of them are not made for this film. What happened is that Ruth Gordon, the amazing costume designer, one of the absolute greats working right now, she was also being the costume designer on that Blade remake with Mahershal Ali that has. Lord only knows when that thing is coming out. She made all of these clothes for that blade. Cause that was also supposed to be set in prohibition era, another vampire movie set in this time that movie hasn't happened yet. I don't know what's going on with it. Lord only knows. So they figured out how to buy those costumes at cost from Marvel and then repurpose them here.

[Paul Scheer]

Whoa.

[Amy Nicholson]

So we're getting a what Blade could have looked like.

[Paul Scheer]

That's really interesting. Oh, I love that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I know. If anything, it makes me miss that Blade even more.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Well, you know what? I love that Ryan has a nice relationship with Marvel. I'm sure that helped, right, to get those costumes to keep him in the fold. I really love this movie. And regardless of the awards or lack of them or abundance of them or nominations, like, this movie has been neck and neck all awards season, and it's done something that I think is.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm sorry, was that on purpose, neck and neck?

[Paul Scheer]

No, Amy, it was not. But I'm gonna say, yes, it was. No. What I think is important is it's a great movie, and this movie has sustained conversation for 12 months. That's impressive. And I think that in the current landscape of cinema, for any movie to exist past a weekend, you know, is a tremendous accomplishment. And, you know, and this is gonna be a movie that we are going to talk about that is timeless, that lives in this thing. I think that we were lucky getting a few movies that are like that this year in the Academy Awards, across the board. But I just was really, really loved this rewatch.

[Amy Nicholson]

Me too, man. Congrats, sinners. I do believe that you will live on entirely.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

I can make it so you can stick around, keep touring, keep living. No pain. I think I've seen enough of this place,

[Paul Scheer]

you know? Now, Amy, everyone is talking about Project Hail Mary. It's currently in the high 90s on rotten tomatoes. I saw it, loved it. And we thought maybe there is a way that we can kind of have conversation with Hail Mary, because Ryan Gosling himself on SNL said, oh, Hail Mary is a little mix of Interstellar and E.T. we've already done those, so we couldn't do those. So you can listen to those episodes, but maybe something a little left of center. And that would be Arrival.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, Arrival was what I was thinking about the whole time I was watching Project Hail Mary, which I loved. Yeah. So I'm excited. I, like, came out of that movie, and I was like, I want to go watch that again, and let's do it.

[Paul Scheer]

Great. So next week, we will be talking about Arrival. You can get that wherever you get your streaming films. And as always, check out our merch shop. We have. It's not new designs, but we have some designs in there. We never talk about it, but we do have a merch shop. And make sure you check out our substack as we continue this conversation about sinners. And you can go back and look at all of the conversations that we've had of different films. We have a really fun substack that has videos and quotes and things that we couldn't really put on here, so always make sure that you are subscribed to that to get a fun little thing in your mailbox every Sunday morning. Amy, see you next time for arrival. And make sure you check out our substack each and every week to go a little bit deeper on the movies that we talk about here. It's always free, so join in the conversation. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson sound engineered by Cory Barton music by Devin Bryant episode art by Kim Troxall show art by Lee Jamison and social media media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now. There's a new way to sweetgreen Meet Graps Handheld, Hearty and made for life on the move. With bold, chef crafted flavors, fresh ingredients and over 40 grams of protein, they're built to satisfy without slowing you down. Try wraps today in the app [e-mail] available at all participating locations.

[Amy Nicholson]

Stitch Fix Stop shopping. Get styled. Not today, Sweatpants. Somebody's wearing jeans that fit.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow. No photos please. I'm just a regular dad who happens to have a stylist.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

I really look my best when someone

[Amy Nicholson]

else makes the decisions.

[Guest/Additional Speaker]

Hey, we can all see you two way mirrors.

[Amy Nicholson]

Just share your size, style and budget and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitch Fix get started today@stitch fix.com I

[Paul Scheer]

want to hug you. I'm going to hug you. I'm coming.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm coming in for a hug.