The Devil Wears Prada

Summary

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Unspooled: The Devil Wears Prada

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Hosts: Paul Scheer & Amy Nicholson

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Episode Overview

This episode of Unspooled is a deep-dive into the 2006 film The Devil Wears Prada—a timely revisit as its long-awaited sequel enters theaters. Hosts Paul Scheer and film critic Amy Nicholson dissect what makes this iconic workplace comedy so resonant two decades later: its sharp depiction of ambition, the cost of professional excellence, the archetype of the "difficult boss," and why Meryl Streep’s Miranda Priestly remains one of cinema’s most memorable characters. Throughout, the hosts blend film history, personal anecdotes, casting what-ifs, social critique, and thoughtful speculation on the film’s enduring relevance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Revisit The Devil Wears Prada?

• Cultural Status: Now considered a modern classic, it ranks #80 on Letterboxd’s top 250 most-loved films.
• Personal Connections: Amy shares how Vogue inspired her early love of movies and career in criticism (01:27).
• Sequel Buzz: The release of the sequel reignites interest in why the original has had such cultural staying power (01:03–01:27).

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2. Origins & Production History

• Source Material: Loosely based on author Lauren Weisberger’s stint as Anna Wintour’s assistant at Vogue (06:32).
• Fast-Tracked by Fox: Bought sight-unseen, before the novel was even finished, due to the tantalizing premise (06:05).
• Script Evolution: Director David Frankel rejected a campy original script, pushing for one that respected the high standards of elite creatives—not just lampooning them (07:06).
  • Frankel Quote: “We should be thrilled to have the people who are excellent at what they do be superior at their jobs. The fact that they are not always nice is irrelevant.” (07:06)
• Casting Battles:
  • Anne Hathaway had to fight for the role; producers doggedly pursued Rachel McAdams instead (08:09). Hathaway even wrote “Hire me” in a producer’s Zen garden.
  • Meryl Streep lobbied for Miranda to be meaner—not gratuitously, but to reflect real professional priorities over geniality (07:52).

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3. Meryl Streep’s Miranda Priestly: A Villain? An Icon?

• Streep’s Process: Her portrayal is intentionally nuanced—she insisted on a method approach to embody Miranda’s distance and authority, rarely interacting with cast mates off-camera (15:32).
• Power in Restraint: Both Streep and director Frankel found inspiration in Clint Eastwood’s quiet intensity as a director—power expressed as calm, not volume (17:35–19:33).
  • Amy: “He commands power by not having to raise [his voice]... The way everyone reacts around him is how you see what real power looks like.” (17:56)
• Aggression vs. Excellence: The film treads a careful line; Miranda may be ruthless, but her standards and focus are presented as necessary at the top echelons of fashion/media.

Notable Miranda Scenes

• Cerulean Monologue (32:09):
  • “That blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs. And it's sort of comical how you think that you've made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you're wearing a sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room.”
• Emotional Breakdown (16:33):
  • The rare private moment—Miranda’s vulnerability with her family reminds the audience of her sacrifices for her career.

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4. Thematic Depths: Choice, Ambition, and Authenticity

• Choices Big and Small: The movie frames every action as a choice (e.g., Andy’s sacrifices, Miranda’s detachment), challenging ideas of victimhood vs. agency (34:59–35:49).
  • “You think you didn't have a choice. No, no, you chose. You chose to get ahead.” — Miranda (35:22)
• Work-Life Balance: Both hosts draw parallels to their own careers—how striving for excellence can cost relationships, nights out, and even self-care (50:25–51:06).
• Effort vs. Appreciation:
  • The film’s poignancy stems from Andy’s tireless effort going largely unrecognized—except by those who truly understand what’s at stake (47:37–48:37; 57:49–59:07).

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5. Is Miranda Priestly a “Bad Boss”?

• Reframing ‘Difficult’ Women in Power:
  • Paul: “Is she a bad boss or just uncompromising? She has built a career on being uncompromising.” (29:52)
  • Amy raises the gendered double standards—would viewers react the same way if Miranda were male? (60:13).
• Power Dynamics: Even characters like Stanley Tucci’s Nigel, who has risen high, are still kept in orbit around Miranda—reminding us there’s always someone who must choose when to stay or move on (63:42–73:00).
• Comparison to Lorne Michaels: The hosts compare Miranda to the long-running SNL producer—quiet dominance, creating culture, a web of loyal #2s (73:56–75:52).

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6. Fashion as Culture

• The Ripple Effect:
  • The famous “cerulean” speech deconstructs how high fashion seeps into even the most “independent” wardrobe choices.
  • Amy: “Fashion is always a choice—even when you reject it, that’s a choice.” (33:25)
• Uncomfortable Truths:
  • The film’s treatment of body image and standard sizes is still timely—while overt fat-shaming language is less common today, many of the underlying standards endure (39:13–40:11).

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7. Endings, Legacies, and the Sequel

• No Neat Resolutions:
  • Paul relishes that the movie avoids typical redemption arcs or easy catharsis—characters make peace with choices, but don’t change wholesale (27:54–28:38).
  • “It’s not hugs and learning.” — Amy (28:45)
• Miranda’s Final Verdict (68:58):
  • She calls Andy her biggest disappointment, yet the best person for the job—acknowledging both admiration and loss.
• Speculations About the Sequel:
  • Both hosts ponder where these characters would logically end up, agreeing the story is less about specific fates than the universality of the workplace crossroads (70:18–71:50).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Anne Hathaway’s Passion:
  • “She even writes HIre Me in the producer’s Zen Garden.” – Paul (08:09)
• Streep’s Method:
  • “On the first day of shooting, Meryl Streep... said, ‘And that is the last nice thing I will say to you.” — recounted by Paul (15:15)
• Streep, On the Demands of the Role:
  • Amy: “I did this more in Method than I ever have. And it was terrible because I was not nice to people.” (15:32)
• On Power & Silence:
  • Paul: “The interesting way of using silence to control, more than energy to control.” (19:33)
• On Choices:
  • Miranda: “You chose to get ahead. You want this life. Those choices are necessary. But what if this isn’t what I want? … Everybody wants to be us.” (34:59–35:49)
• On the Sad Reality of the Runway World:
  • Amy: “Less than a year. Right. So of course Emily Blunt is mad at Anne Hathaway because Anne Hathaway hasn't put in the time for them to have anything more than a mean relationship. How many Anne Hathaways have there been in her tenure?” (64:12)
• Effort:
  • Tucci's Nigel: “You are not trying. You are whining. … This takes effort.” (47:58)
• Amy on Female Friendships:
  • “Female friendships are so hard. I wonder if [Andy and Lily] are going to have forgiven each other…” (83:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:41 – Introduction to podcast and criteria for movie selection
• 01:27 – Amy’s personal history with Vogue Magazine
• 04:23 – Paul’s first impressions & the film’s influence
• 06:32 – Film origin: Lauren Weisberger and Anna Wintour
• 08:09 – Casting drama: Hathaway, McAdams, and Meryl’s demands
• 13:12 – Streep's comedic performance & industry context
• 15:32 – Streep’s method acting and its on-set impact
• 16:33 – Miranda’s vulnerability: pivotal scene analysis
• 32:09 – The “cerulean speech”: fashion’s cultural power
• 34:59 – Thematic breakdown: choices and their costs
• 47:37 – “Effort and appreciation”: what’s expected vs. what’s rewarded
• 50:25–51:32 – Personal sacrifices for career advancement
• 64:12 – The assistant hierarchy: empathy for Emily and Nigel
• 73:56 – Lorne Michaels comparison: power structures in creative industries
• 81:22 – Anne Hathaway’s career and the allure of the remake

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Final Thoughts & Legacy

• The hosts agree that The Devil Wears Prada endures because it avoids easy answers about ambition, identity, and the price of excellence.
• The film’s legacy is anchored by Streep’s multifaceted portrayal of power, as well as the relatability of Andy’s coming-of-age arc—a journey shaped less by success or failure than by honest confrontation with personal limits and desires.
• It remains an incisive, witty, and empathetic take on “effort and appreciation”—a story about who gets to “be us,” and at what cost.

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Next Episode Tease

Amy passionately pitches that they cover Jerry Maguire next, citing similar dilemmas of career, value, and the courage to choose one’s own path (88:19).

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For extended conversation, deleted scenes, and episode extras, visit the Unspooled Substack.

Transcript

[Amy Nicholson]

The year is 2006.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

So you don't read Runway?

[Amy Nicholson]

No.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

And before today, you had never heard of me.

[Amy Nicholson]

No.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

And you have no style or sense of fashion.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I think that depends on what you're.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

No, no. That wasn't a question.

[Amy Nicholson]

The movie the Devil Wears Prada. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Unspooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed, Ems, we have

[Amy Nicholson]

covered the AFI top 100, and now we are taking off movies from three major lists. The Letterboxd top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb top 250, and the New York Times 1000 essential films.

[Paul Scheer]

And guess what, Amy? It doesn't stop there, because we will also be chasing our own curiosity. That's right. And this week is an example of that. But maybe this movie is also on those lists because Devil wears Prada 2 is coming out, or is out, depending on when you listen to this in theaters. And we figured, what a great chance to revisit, quote, unquote, classic. Whoa.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't know if I like your attitude, because it is on one of those three lists. Hello, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for the Los Angeles Times. And I'm going to take this moment to actually say thank you to Vogue magazine. Vogue magazine is a very important part of who I grew up, who I became. I'm the Stanley Tucci was a little kid reading this magazine in San Antonio, Texas, you know, 12, 13, 14. Reading not only just about amazing fashion and models, and I don't know why it's better to cook French fries and horse fat, which was a real article that Vogue magazine read. It's been engraved in my head ever since. But they had an amazing film critic. His name was John Powers. I would read him. I would dream about all the movies that maybe someday I could watch if, like, cool movies came to San Antonio, Texas, which was very hard, and they didn't come that much. And then that film critic, John Powers, became very important in my life because he gave me my internship at the LA Weekly, which he was by the time I graduated. And I owe that man a lot. So Vogue magazine, John Powers, major figures of young Amy Nicholson's childhood.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, Amy, I didn't want to interrupt you, but I don't know what you're talking about. This movie's about Runway magazine.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're right. It's completely about that. Not anything having to do with Vogue at all.

[Paul Scheer]

I am Paul Scheer. I'm an actor, writer and director. And now I can say an Adrian Grenier completist because I had never seen the Devil Wears Prada until this weekend. And now I can finally say, yes, I've seen all the Adrian Grenade movies. But as I just googled him, no, I have not. There's a lot that I've missed, actually.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, there is. I was gonna say, how many movies are we really talking about?

[Paul Scheer]

More than you would think. More than you would think. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot.

[Amy Nicholson]

Fair enough.

[Paul Scheer]

The list keeps on going. I would even name them for fun, but there's upwards of like 40. Or it seems to be.

[Amy Nicholson]

Sounds like we have a new podcast. We did the AFI top 100. Now do the Adrian Grenier top 40.

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[Amy Nicholson]

Unschooled.

[Paul Scheer]

No, this is actually really fascinating for me to watch. I want to talk about the movie, obviously, in great detail, but my initial, my gut reaction to it is, oh, my God, I have been living in a sea of imitators without seeing this. Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

And this is the 21 versions.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. This is the gold standard. Like, I get it. I get. And I want to put you at ease. I really enjoyed the hell out of it. I think it was a great movie. Oh, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

It scared me for a second.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I put like classic because I didn't know. Like, is it a classic? I think it is. I just don't know.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think it is too, honestly. I think it is a classic in the key of a mean girls, maybe even more. I feel like this, actually, people will watch this movie in 40 years. Honestly, the way that we like to Watch. Not even just funny face movies, like about the modeling industry with Audrey Hepburn. But just like any snarky. His Girl Friday workplace comedy.

[Paul Scheer]

It definitely tackles bigger themes than I thought would be at play in just what I knew about the film. And I think, to your point, Vogue magazine has had this stranglehold on culture. And I guess maybe a stranglehold only used in a negative way. I think it in a positive way.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, they made Chuckers popular. I don't know if that's true, but probably.

[Paul Scheer]

No, but like, Vogue is the. You know, the magazine that defines what we all embrace. I think it is the old grade, ladies, colorful brother. Does anyone use that? So far, really striking out of my metaphors. But I'm.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't think anybody's ever called it anybody's brother.

[Paul Scheer]

But sure, yeah, maybe sister. Okay, yes, the old gray lady's colorful sister. And when this movie was even spoken about, it already created such an uproar. Because back in 2006, Fox bought the rights to this book called the Devil Wears Prada. And that was based on the first 50 pages of the book and a treatment about what the rest would be.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, they were like, we are sold. It doesn't matter that this book isn't even done. This is the author, Lauren Weisberger's pretty true story of being Anna Wintour's assistant at Vogue magazine. You know, this prestigious, take no prisoners fashion magazine. That has told women how to dress and shape the culture, I would say, at large since 1892.

[Paul Scheer]

So they immediately start turning what they've got from the book into a script about this new assistant named Andy, who considers herself a serious journalist who's not into fashion. And her terrifying boss, Miranda Priestley, the editor of Runway magazine.

[Amy Nicholson]

And the script goes through a lot of drafts. But the director that they have in mind, David Franco, he's a TV talent. His tv. His credits at the time, they include Sex and the City and Entourage. So, you know that he knows fashion, New York, careers, celebrity. They really want this guy to direct. But he is so unimpressed with this original script that he does not want to take the meeting. Because his issue with it is that it's just snarky, shallow, campy, and as David puts it, quote, we should be thrilled to have the people who are excellent at what they do be superior at their jobs. You know, the fact that they are not always nice is irrelevant.

[Paul Scheer]

And so they redo the script again now with Aileen Brosh McKenna. And they make it funny and respectful towards the fact that Miranda Might be awful, but she's also a great editor.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, they almost make her too nice. Because then Meryl Streep agrees to play Miranda Priestly and says, hey, make me meaner. You know, not gratuitously, but as in, I've got stuff to do and I don't have any need to be nice. And then, yeah, some other fashion people who know Vogue, they also read the script and they say, make these other co workers, Emily and Nigel, meaner too.

[Paul Scheer]

Emily and Nigel will be played by Emily Blunt and Stanley Tucci. And Andy is, of course, played by Anne Hathaway, who at the time is just 21 years old and already building up a pretty impressive resume with the Princess Diaries and Brokeback Mountain. But the producers don't really see her in the part. Yeah, they want Rachel McAdams so much so that they ask Rachel to do it three times, and each time she says no. I mean, and Anne, on the other side of this, just wants it so bad that she even writes Hire Me in the producer's Zen Garden. Which, I mean, that should be on the studio,

[Amy Nicholson]

honestly. Now that I think about it, though, writing Hire me in a Zen garden and disrupting the Zen Garden feels like going against the.

[Paul Scheer]

Don't bring work in there.

[Amy Nicholson]

But anyway, her character, Andy, learns to fit in and excel at Runway magazine. But the drama of the film is that doing Will at Runway costs her a lot. It costs her relationships with her friends. It costs her her relationship with her boyfriend Nate. Her normal friends do not get this job pressure the way that another person she meets, this magazine writer named Christian, does. Nate is played by Adrian Grenier, and Christian is played by Simon Baker.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, this movie is a monster hit. It comes out June 30, 2006, and makes $326 million. Not on the first weekend, but over time.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yes, thank you for specifying that. And it gets nominated for Best Costumes for Patricia Field, who is also Sex and the City, and Best Actress for Meryl Streep. They both lose, but Meryl does win the Golden Globe. You can hear her here.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Oh, my God. Thank you, everybody. Thank you so much. I'm really thrilled. I think I've worked with everybody in the room.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yes, I have.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Oh, I'm gonna forget everything if I don't. Oh, shut up. It's not that long.

[Amy Nicholson]

In fact, you know what? I wanna play a little bit more from her speech because I was listening to it and thinking it's almost like she's talking about Young Me in San Antonio, Texas. Except I Didn't have the nerve to go say anything like this.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

And finally, I just wanna say the reason you could see the Devil Wears Prada is because it was playing on every theater screen across America. And that was because they were playing it. And if you can't see, you know, Little Children or Pan's Labyrinth or the Queen or all these great movies that I've just seen, volver Notes on a Scandal, Sherry baby, then you have to go down to your theater manager and ask him. Why? Because it's amazing how much you can get if you quietly, clearly and authoritatively demand it. That's all.

[Amy Nicholson]

And the Devil Wears Prada is number 80 on the Letterboxd top 250 films with the most fans.

[Paul Scheer]

You know. You know, the idea of writing a tell all book about Vogue is truly like something worth salivating for. Right? Because this idea of what goes on behind the scenes and Anna Wintour is such a character. I got to actually sit behind her at Glengarry Glen Ross, the new one that they just did on Broadway. And there is such an energy around this woman. It is mind blowing. Like, truly, what did you see?

[Amy Nicholson]

What happened?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I did get pushed down by a security guard, so I didn't realize that Anna Wintour was. Was in front of me. And not only that, she was with Jill Biden. So.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, wow.

[Paul Scheer]

When I got up very quickly to like run to the bathroom, like I knew where the act break was, I was forcibly pushed back down in my seat to let her and Jill walk past me before I got up. It was a shocking moment because my New Yorker in me came out. And then I realized, oh, I'm surrounded by two voices, very big men, and I'll let her sit back down and then put everything together. But I did not even realize that I was sitting behind her until I realized, oh, there is a lot of pomp and circumstance here. But she is to me, a fascinating figure. Right. Even if you don't know Vogue, if you don't care about fashion, she is like an icon of New York. A Mickey Mouse, if you will. But I found it fascinating that, you know, we talked about Anne Hathaway wanting this part, but they wouldn't fully finance this film until Meryl Streep came on board. Which I thought was kind of interesting. Right? Like, there's only one person that could play her.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well. Yeah. And I think that had to come around to that idea too, because I think the first reaction to hey, this should be Meryl Streep was we've never seen her do a Comedy. Can she do a comedy now? You know, now we're in this world of Meryl Streep doing all of the ABBA movies. And I think we're warmer, very warm with the idea that she can be funny, too. She is. She's incredibly warm and funny.

[Paul Scheer]

She's amazing. I mean, if you've watched her on, you know, Only Murders in the Building, I mean, she can do anything. She's Meryl Streep. And I think part of this was a political choice, because if you're gonna have anyone play you in a film, it better be Meryl Streep, right? Like, Anna Wintour can't be that mad. And I think that, you know, at

[Amy Nicholson]

first that's true, right? You gotta be like, okay, okay, we're going to the best.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, exactly, right? There's no other. And then.

[Amy Nicholson]

And you also feel like if it's Meryl Streep. Sorry to interrupt. But if you feel like it's Meryl Streep, then Meryl Streep isn't gonna just do some One note Lampoon review. Meryl Streep is going to do a real performance.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that that also is something that you felt from the fashion world as well, because no one wants to get on the wrong side of Anna Wintour. Like we said, she is creating culture. And even fashion brands were nervous at first, but then Prada, they kind of said, okay, we'll. We'll do this. And that broke the ice, reassured others, and then more fashion brands came on. It was a slow journey to kind of let people know, like, yes, we're gonna make that, but it's not gonna be a hit piece. Um, and that allowed even like, the production designer to visit Vogue and study Wintour's office, you know, and they say that the recreation was so close that Anna Wintour redecorated after the movie because she didn't like that her office was actually made that way.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I actually looked it up to be like, is that true? And it does look like it. They both have, you know, white walls, framed art in very neutral frames, lots of white space. And they specifically both have mirrors on the walls shaped like octagons.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

And like, a subtle stop.

[Paul Scheer]

I think we've talked about Meryl Streep a handful of times in the show, and there's so much talk about, like, Daniel Day Lewis. He's in character. He won't break character. And I don't ever think Meryl Streep talks that much about her process. But there is a Great story that Anne Hathaway tells where, like, on the first day of shooting, Meryl Streep came up to Anne Hathaway and said, I think you're perfect for the role. I'm so happy we're going to be working together. And then said, and that is the last nice thing I will say to you. And that's how she kept her distance, like, as Miranda, like, wanted to keep that kind of thing.

[Amy Nicholson]

And honestly, Yeah. I think all I know about Marilyn's process comes from what she said specifically, only about this movie. Because she said, I did this more in Method than I ever have. And it was terrible because I was not nice to people. I like being friendly on sets. I hid in my trailer all the time, and I could hear people laughing and having a blast. And I refused to do it because I didn't want to break this character. So that makes me think, by extrapolation, she's not Method.

[Paul Scheer]

That's really interesting. I guess you're right. And maybe the weight of doing right by this woman is really what drove her. Right. Cause Meryl Streep wanted to, I think, make it faithful. And a lot of people assume that she was going to be screaming at all times, but she kind of creates this, like, whisper in her voice that is so stern. I don't know. It works so much better. Cause it goes against the grain of what you think a very intimidating boss might be.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, oh, my gosh. Remember that scene where Andy accidentally walks in and sees that this woman who's so terrifying the office is actually getting into a fight with her husband in her own home? That sounds pretty brutal. Let's listen to that. What did you expect me to do?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Walk out in the middle of a cover seat?

[Paul Scheer]

I rushed out and committee meeting, and I sat there waiting for you for almost an hour.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

I told you that the cell phones didn't work. Nobody could get a signal out.

[Paul Scheer]

And I knew what everyone in that restaurant was thinking. There he is, waiting for her again.

[Amy Nicholson]

And so then after that scene, you're like, oh, God, what's gonna happen? She didn't say a thing yet. She didn't say a thing in the house. You're so nervous. This is gonna be hell. And the very first word you hear Meryl say to her is this Andrea. That's the quietest, subtlest. Oh, no. It's just like, you are coming into the room and I am summoning you. Edita Barila Sriva said that she based this on a couple different people, that she knew that she Worked with one of whom was in Da Da Da Da da. Do you remember this movie?

[Paul Scheer]

Warner Brothers presents the most passionately read love story of our time. Clint Eastwood, Meryl Streep, The Bridges of Madison County.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yes. I have actually never seen the Bridges of Madison County. That felt like a movie for old people for me when it came out. But she made that movie with Clint Eastwood. And so she said, when I watch Clint Eastwood on a set, he never raises his voice. If he raises his voice, like I think he did it once, everybody flipped out. She's like, he commands power by not having to raise it. You have to listen to him. You don't want to upset this guy. The way everyone reacts around him is how you see what real power looks like. And so I was trying to listen a little bit for like, the Clint Eastwood of her delivery, having never been directed by him and still continually making fun of him in my head for his orgy movie. But like, I pulled this clip cause it's probably one of the most famous ways of him speaking. And you're like, okay, yeah, I could see him orta piece priestly saying this.

[Paul Scheer]

I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I kind of lost track myself. But Ian is a.44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off. You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, do you bunk? And then the other person that she took a lot of Amiranda Peaslee's delivery from was Mike Nichols. You know, the director of the Graduate. We've talked about Mike Nichols a lot. She says that from him she learned that if you say something so mean to people, but that you say it with just a little bit of like, she called it a quote, self amused curlicue of irony. Then that is so brutal because it makes everyone in the room laugh to break the tension. And even the person you're making fun of feels obligated to laugh. And then it's like you're laughing at them and it's just doubled down.

[Paul Scheer]

Ooh, I love that you know the way that you're talking about, like, presence was brought to my attention so clearly in this episode of the Beast Games. I know you're going to be like, wait, Paul, why are you going this way? But, you know, Mr. Beast obviously hosts his shows in a very particular way. I am standing on $5 million of real money. Jeff Probst turns to him and says, why are you Yelling. You have all the power. You never need to raise your voice. And I was like, wow. And watching Survivor for that long, you realize, oh, Jeff Probst doesn't raise his voice. He is the conductor instead of, like, the school teacher. And I found that to be really just an interesting way of using silence to control more than energy to control.

[Amy Nicholson]

It is so smart.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Because two of them together, but if

[Amy Nicholson]

somebody doesn't pay attention to you, you don't have anywhere else to go. It's like you lose immediately.

[Paul Scheer]

And I know that we've been talking about, you know, this is about Anna Wintour, but I think it was really smart that Meryl Streep went outward like, yes, this is about the editor of Vogue, but she created her own version of her. She's not wearing the big glasses. As a matter of fact, her look is kind of partly based on. And I didn't know this person before, but Carmen del'. Oraphis. Do you know this?

[Amy Nicholson]

I knew her. She's a really famous model at this time.

[Paul Scheer]

And if you look at her on Google, you will see. Or anywhere. I mean, you could find her anywhere. She looks exactly like Miranda Priestley. Right. This is the kind of work that I think makes the film a little bit more detailed because it's not just a direct parody. Right. She's creating her own ideas around a powerful character. And I think that's why this movie actually stands up and would be something that you would want to watch in the future, because it's not just about one person. It's about a type of person. Cause she also said that she was very influenced by the authority of Christine Lagarde. Do you know that? Christine Lagarde.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And this is an odd one, because Christine Lagarde is not a actress, not a model, not even anyone in the publishing world. She is a French politician and lawyer. Currently, she's the president of the European Central Bank. But back in, you know, 2005, 2006, when this movie is being made, she is the Minister of Foreign Trade in France. So an interesting character to kind of pick as a powerful woman, you know, powerful woman in banking and a French woman. I love that she went that direction.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I think it's really neat that she insisted on having her hair be white, because Meryl Streep at this period is not a person with naturally white hair. She's only in her mid-50s. She does not have that shocking, shocking white. But she was willing to play herself up as looking older than she naturally would instead of doing this in the I must stay young at all costs. I've got, like, a facelift. That kind of caricature y way that she could have gone. She goes with, like, real dignity. And I don't know, I love that she's just sort of cruising through being this woman who, you know, honestly, she is terrible. Like, I had a friend with this boss once, a boss who's almost exactly like this. Also a magazine, also a fashion magazine. Root and I watched this boss destroy my friend's life for a while. And, like, by the end of my friend working there, our hearts were all breaking for them. And also, it was difficult to be around them, too. Cause they were like a nightmare. And then they wound up getting fired for the stupidest reason that, like, we all have their backs for, but could not tell them because they could not even talk about how they were because it was too painful. So we all had to ignore it. It was insane. Like, it was completely insane.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that movies like this or stories that you hear about powerful people often, I think, fuel other people to be equally horrible. Right? Or if you've had a horrible boss, you can sometimes just follow in their footsteps. I mean, so many people go the other direction. But at this time, you know, bad boss behavior is something that you share, is something that just goes on and is kind of respected. And I think this movie walks a really interesting line with it because, yes, this is real. There are awful bosses and they aren't your friend. And this movie continually makes choices, in my opinion, where they never wreck that. There's a moment towards the end of the film where, you know, Meryl Streep is revealing that she's getting a divorce. And you would think in your typical rom com or I don't even know what you call it, just a comm. The Anne Hathaway character would give her advice or share something about her own relationship or, you know, they would see eye to eye in this moment and they would be equal. And they don't do that at all. Like, there's an acknowledgement that they are together. But Anne Hathaway never oversteps that boundary with her, which I think is incredibly realistic. Spring is upon us. That means it's time for shorts. It also means it is time for a linen pant. Oh, a linen pant. Fellas, get yourself a nice linen pant. Lately I've been a lot more intentional about what I wear day to day. I now have a partner to help me get dressed, and that partner is Quince. All right? They give you fabrics that feel elevated fits that are flattering and everything just works without overthinking it. Now I love Quince because what they do is they use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim. And they price at 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship. Now I'll tell you, I just got some great shorts like this drawstring short from Quince that I love, but these linen pants are just sealing the deal. I love it because it's a way to be casual but a little bit dressed up. Maybe if you go on vacation, you go to the beach or whatever you might need, get a linen pant in your rotation and get that linen pant at Quint's. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com unspooled for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com unspooled for Free Shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com unspooled

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[Amy Nicholson]

unschooled.

[Paul Scheer]

That's what I really love about the film is there aren't many traditional, like, movie moments. Where a character is redeemed or we see a different side, or finally, they have a breakthrough. Like, we leave these characters kind of splintering off. And it's not as if, you know, one character is won or the other one is defeated. It's they have both chosen lives. Where at a certain point, Anne Hathaway's like, I must go this way. This is how I will be happier. Not because she was broken, but because she realized that it wasn't for her. And Meryl Streep isn't gonna change the way that she is.

[Amy Nicholson]

No. Gonna be a squishier boss. You taught me. I should have Pizza Fridays. Like, what? No.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Ye. Like, there's not a hug at the end. It's not hugs and learning. It's like she nods at Meryl across the street. Meryl gets in the car and still won't let her smile. Like, she smiles only to herself, only for herself and only for a minute. Nobody's gonna learn anything on any kind of level. Like, I really appreciate that this movie sets up not only this. I guess. I guess there's kind of, like a love triangle dynamic in the office between Andy and Miranda. And then Emily, you know, the number one assistant. Who is, like, terrified that Andy's gonna ruin her job. And is just, like, so intense all the time. And has really, like, taken that bad bossness to heart.

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[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Andrea. Runway is a fashion magazine. So an interest in fashion is crucial.

[Amy Nicholson]

What makes you think I'm not interested in fashion?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Oh, my God.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, no, no. That's the love triangle that's happening in film. And then there's the romantic love triangle that's happening in the film. And none of them get resolved with, like, here's my choice and everything's gonna be happy.

[Paul Scheer]

Right? Life is messy. And, you know, I wanna just dig in to what you said about bad boss. And this is something I've been thinking about for a long time since I saw it. Is that what she is? Is she a bad boss? Or is she just an uncompromising person? Because she has built a career on being uncompromising. Like that scene, that monologue that she gives about the belt, right? Anne Hathaway doesn't see a difference between these two belts. And, you know, Miranda Priestly gives this monologue about how that choice, it's so small you don't even see it will dictate have Ripple effects across culture that you are essentially a part of, but you don't even know it. And that eye to detail and that exceptionalism is important because she is holding up something that is the backbone of culture. And that sentiment, to me, I think is really interesting. This idea of someone who will not break. And there's been a lot of movies about that in this last year. We talked about it a little bit, but like J. Kelly and Hamnet, and I just saw Outcome, which, you know, we can have a whole conversation about that. But this idea of giving up yourself for your career, and that's what we're watching. We are watching this woman who has gotten herself to the top rung having to constantly give up everything. I think Meryl Streep is doing that too. By taking herself out of the fun and hiding in the trailer. Like that was the type of mindset that she had to be in. There is no time for fun. This is a time for being professional.

[Amy Nicholson]

I wanna actually play that speech that you just talked about, the cerulean speech, because I think it is incredibly important and so pivotal, just for everything you described, for the fact that it was Meryl Streep's idea. She's like, people need to understand how important fashion is to really have this world be grounded. But just thematically, I kind of feel like it is the entire movie right there. You know, I'm still learning about this

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

stuff and this stuff. Oh, okay, I see. You think this has nothing to do with you. You go to your closet and you select. I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue. It's not turquoise, it's not lapis. It's actually cerulean. And you're also blithely under which of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves Saint Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets. I think we need a jacket here. And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. And then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic casual corner where you no doubt fished it out of the. Some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs. And it's sort of comical how you think that you've made a Choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you're wearing a sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay? Because what we're talking about is exactly the point. Like, fashion is there. Fashion is life. Like, one of my favorite fashion critics I read all the time is Vanessa Friedman for the New York Times. I think she's amazing. And I love reading her fashion pieces because they touch on stuff that interests me about movies, you know, anthropology, culture, fashion. What are we trying to say about ourselves when we go out in the morning? And what are we putting on our bodies? You know, she has this line, you know, everyone has to think about food, shelter, and what they wear. And even nudists think about what they wear because they're just rejecting the idea of wearing anything, which is also a choice. But that's what's happening in the cerulean speech, too, is it? Is about, you know, you think you're making this choice. You're actually making this choice. You think you're not making a choice. You are making a choice. Because all throughout this movie, that's what people keep accusing Andy of doing. You think you don't have a choice in taking your boss's phone calls and in working crazy and in screwing over Emily when Emily wants to go to Paris. You are also making choices. And I love that Meryl Streep has a really long monologue towards the ender. She just calls her out. Like, choices that we'd make in life are, I would say, one of the major themes here.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

I never thought I would say this, Audrey, but I really. I see a great deal of myself in you. You can see beyond what people want and what they need. And you can choose for yourself. I don't think I'm like that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

I couldn't do what you did to Nigel Miranda. I couldn't do something like that. You already did. To Emily.

[Paul Scheer]

That's not what I.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

No, that was different. I didn't have a choice. No, no, you chose. You chose to get ahead. You want this life. Those choices are necessary. But what if this isn't what I want? I mean, what if I don't want

[Amy Nicholson]

to live the way you live?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Oh, don't be ridiculous, Andrea. Everybody wants this. Everybody wants to be us.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that that's really important. And going back to that idea of being exceptional. And that's what the director looked at when he was approaching this. How do we celebrate that? Yes, they're difficult, but they're exceptional. And I think that that's what separates a movie like this from a film like Swimming With Sharks? Do you remember that movie with Kevin Spacey? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Glengarry Glen. Wait, didn't. Wait, you said you saw Anna Wintourith. I said Glengarry Glen Ross.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, the new one that just was on.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, that is so perfect.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow. Yeah, you're right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Wow. Okay, cool. She's taking notes or she's like, no, I drafted. I helped you with this.

[Paul Scheer]

But I think that in the past, like, when you watch that movie Swimming With Sharks, like, that's an abusive boss. And I think a lot of the stories that we hear and my friends and myself, when we've worked for bad bosses, they don't have that exceptionalism. They want control and that loud voice and that power is, you know, in many respects, them forcing you to listen to them, not controlling you to listen to them. Like, everybody wants to be there. People don't want to be fired. That's what makes this movie interesting, is that in the beginning, Anne Hathaway doesn't care. She doesn't know her. She has no respect for her. But then grows to respect her and that process. And I think that we're so used to bad bosses just being just dicks. Right? You know, it. They. For no reason. And I feel like everything that she does in this, with the exception of the Harry Potter manuscript, which I think is her most dickish move, because she's embarrassed, Right? She's embarrassed and she wants her to leave, but she won't fire her, and Anne Hathaway won't quit. So they're caught in this impasse. So they're forced to kind of work together and show each other what they have. And they both have to. Well, and for Anne Hathaway to stay, that's her apology. Her apology isn't like, I'm so sorry I saw you with your husband. Her apology is like, I have to now be this other thing to stay here to prove my worth. But that's one beat in the entire film. The rest of the movie, she's not like that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And I think you're right. It's like, it would be unethical for her to fire Anne Hathaway. For Anne Hathaway witnessing something in her personal life, but she can make it so hard for her to stay that. That separates the choice. And, yeah, I think, like, the coolest thing that she says to her specifically is like, calling her fat all of the time. But that also just gets you in the head space of, like, in my reality, Anne Hathaway is not fat. How screwed up is this reality of Runway? That they just treat it like it's a fact, that it's just a fact to everybody. She gets called her size, which is 6, which is a dream size. You know, they're like, ugh. Fat, like. And it's one of those things that is cruel. But the factuality of it in this world as it was framed then, because this is definitely a pre, like, body, body empathy, body, body warmness moment for Vogue. I mean, I think Vogue put Kim Kardashian on the COVID in 2014. And then finally after that, they're like, I don't know, we'll put Lauren Bezos, which is just like, what? Which is anti everything that you would have thought the Annie stood for, but now the base is her co chairing the Met Gala or the big whatever. That's a whole mess. Now. This is a different Vogue, is my point. A very different Vogue.

[Paul Scheer]

I will say that even though this is 2006, I have many female friends who tell me that they can't borrow dresses from designers unless they are a six. They don't give you those outfits to walk on the red carpet unless you're a size 6. So it hasn't changed that much. We may not call people fat because of it, but it's there culturally. It's still true.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm sorry, sweetie. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And. And the reason why Kim Kardashian's on the COVID is because Kim Kardashian is an iconic fashion star that's not in the traditional mold. But it wasn't like, you know, Anna Wintour found a model who is a no name. She's selling magazines, and especially in a time. And this is kind of neither here nor there with the film, where magazines like that are dying. And you need to sell publications back, you know, in 2006 and before that, people are just buying it because it's part of their pile of magazines that they get every month.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I mean, it's already. It's switching a little bit here because even the fact that she's talking about a cover shoot with Gwyneth, when I was a child reading Vogue magazine, the COVID was always a model, always a model. And I remember when it made a switch from models to actresses, and you're like, what? Like, it switched from models to celebrities, and it was like, it needed a famous face on the COVID And that felt to me like, oh, God, are we dying? We need a little bit of a boost here. And I don't. I wish that we would go back to models on covers of magazines. I feel like that's what a fashion magazine should have.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. But I guess that's the interest. Right. The interest is like I'm picking it up not just because of fashion, because of celebrity. And celebrity and fashion have now become synonymous in many ways. But I think with this film and looking at it, I really responded to the way it articulates what success is and the cost of success, which back to that point about, you know, I'll say J. Kelly, I think that J. Kelly didn't do it as succinctly as this film did. Right. It showed you, oh, yes, this is the life left behind. And maybe this is the Anna Wintour story, when Anna Wintour is about to retire. But I think that there is a push. There is no looking back. There is only looking forward. There is no regret because they have. And maybe this is inflated ego, but a higher power. It's the same reason why I think people feel comfortable running for president. I think if you're gonna run for president, you are insane. And I say that, you know, like, on some level you believe you can handle the fate of this country in your hands. I mean, that is an impossible thing to wrap your head around.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And that you can hold up to the scrutiny of that and the cameras and the public just being your face, being out everywhere, that's my nightmare.

[Paul Scheer]

And yet dozens, I mean, you know, hundreds of people have thrown their hat into the ring. It's very interesting. Right. And those types of people are built differently.

[Amy Nicholson]

I wonder if we have a different type of president. This must be Captain Obvious 101. But ever since, like Kennedy, the Checker speech, Nixon, when it became clear that if you were going to be a president in around the 19, late 50s, early 60s, you had to be okay on television.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I wonder if before then, because we weren't alive, we had sometimes better presidents because they didn't have to always be in front of a camera talking.

[Paul Scheer]

I think it goes back to that, the first debate between Nixon and Kennedy. People who listen on the radio thought that Nixon won, but people who watched on TV thought John F. Kennedy won because Nixon was sweating. Right. And we've dealt with things in the past like, well, Al Gore's too much of a nerd. And I will say that, you know, as we get to Trump, Trump is one of the few presidents, if maybe only president, that seems very thin skinned. And I say that only because I think part of being a leader, whether it's the head of Vogue or The President United States is not to even take any of that stuff on. Right. You have to be above it. I don't think.

[Amy Nicholson]

Or at least not show that it hurt you.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I don't think, like, Nixon was an asshole behind the scenes.

[Paul Scheer]

100%. Right. Yeah. And. Right. You're not broadcasting it. And.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. You won't show the weakness of it.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that that's why this movie is kind of genius in the sense that Miranda Priestly isn't a cold hearted person. She has children. She cares about those children. She has a husband, she can't keep him. And we see why through Anne Hathaway and Adrian Grenier. It is all encompassing. But she is a human and we see those human sides to her. And I think that's the thing that is really important about this movie too, is you have to give a part of yourself away. And no one will ever really get it. I mean, they don't delve into her relationship with the children. And I think that she's there for them, but how much can she be there? Like, you're always gonna get some sliver of them. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Because she wants to be there for the recitals. She's trying. But then the kids seem to have an issue with her job enough that they're trying to get Anne Hathaway in trouble.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

So they seem to have some mild rage or just.

[Paul Scheer]

They know. They know they can. I mean, kids are like that. I think kids can. They wanna fuck with you. They wanna get you in trouble. I'm sure they've been yelled at.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, they're definitely, I think, spoiled and also definitely shot to be like the Shining twins. But then the secondary mystery is what is the backstory with these kids? Because Myranda maybe seems a bit too old to have had them biologically. And it doesn't seem like this guy she's married to is a father. It doesn't seem like the last one is a father. I mean, even when she's talking about them, when she's finally revealing herself about the divorce, she just says, another father, you know? And it's like she had to make a choice to have those kids. And I don't know what that choice even was because it doesn't seem like it was an accident. It seems like it really had to be something she worked for. And it was difficult and had to try to figure out how to get other people on board around too. That if none of these men she's marrying are their fathers, what's the deal? It'd Be hard.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, just to put some real world context on it, Anna Wintour does have two children. She married this gentleman, David Schaefer, in 84. They had a baby, Charles in 85 and Bea in 87 before divorcing in 99. And you know, I guess apparently she's had a long term relationship with Shelby Bryan. Cause who I believe she is married to now. And you know, her kids have, you know, done interesting things. Like Bea, I believe, worked on Seth Meyer's show. I remember hearing that. And then. And I think her other son, mom, looking right here is a psychiatrist, huh?

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, then they really took the different path from the family. Because I think like everybody else in her family, or at least her brother and her dad. Yeah, I think they definitely. Yeah, they did, they did, they did. They did come from journalism. Like, here's her actually talking about it in a very strange interview.

[Paul Scheer]

What kind of phone do you have?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

A flip phone.

[Paul Scheer]

What's the greatest invention of all time?

[Amy Nicholson]

Anything by Apple.

[Paul Scheer]

Stationary or email.

[Amy Nicholson]

Thanks.

[Paul Scheer]

Letter or postcard?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Both.

[Paul Scheer]

What have you learned from your father being an editor of the Evening Standard?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Perseverance.

[Paul Scheer]

What have you learned from your brother as an editor of the Guardian?

[Amy Nicholson]

Great reporting.

[Paul Scheer]

What have you learned from your children?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Love.

[Paul Scheer]

What is a skill that can never be mastered?

[Amy Nicholson]

For me, learning Chinese.

[Paul Scheer]

What's your biggest regret?

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

I don't have one.

[Paul Scheer]

What's the least true rumor about you?

[Amy Nicholson]

They're all true.

[Paul Scheer]

Anna, last question. Can you put back on those sunglasses and take a selfie with my phone?

[Amy Nicholson]

I've never taken a selfie and I don't plan to start now.

[Paul Scheer]

Fair enough. Anna. I also just want to pull out one thing that I saw in her Vogue 73 questions. This is Anna Wintour. She said that her grandchildren do not call her Grandma, they call her Anna. Which is interesting, right? I guess what I'm saying is like that's the level of you'll never get too, too close. You can't. Because the job is the thing.

[Amy Nicholson]

The job is the thing. I mean, I think if anything, what this movie really boils down to is maybe these two words, effort and appreciation, right? Like you're Andy. You have to realize that being at this magazine takes effort. You know, I love that scene where she goes to Stanley Tucci looking for help and he's just not going to give it to her.

[Paul Scheer]

You are not trying. You are whining. What is it that you want me to say to you, huh? Do you want me to say, poor you, Miranda's picking on you. Poor you. Poor Andy. Hmm. Wake up, six. She's just doing her job. Don't you know that you were working at the place that published some of the greatest artists of the century. Halston, Lagerfeld, de la Renta. And what they did, what they created, was greater than art because you live your life in it. Well, not you, obviously, but some people.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, that speech is a little out of fashion now. And I wouldn't mind if it came a touch more in fashion, because it's about like, hey, you're not always going to be the victim here. Like, you gotta just work really hard. You gotta really appreciate what you're doing. You gotta understand that this takes effort.

[Paul Scheer]

You got the job. Do the job right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, that's it.

[Paul Scheer]

Or don't do the job. And part of the job is conforming to the workplace. When you are not the boss. You gotta fit in, right? And that's the way that we should all be. Instead of. Which I think is more of a millennial idea to a certain extent, which is like, well, it's gonna work around my wants and needs. And I think that there's a mix of both. But I don't know. When I was in my 20s in New York, I gave everything to what I was doing. And I still do to a major part. But I'm glad that I had that.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's what at least they'll do. You work very hard, but I also

[Paul Scheer]

am able to draw that line and be like. And now I'm with my family, right? And that's. And that's the difference. And that took me a bit to, like, wrap my head around. But that, like, those early days was like, I didn't care. I performed almost seven nights a week. I would do anything anywhere for no money, some money, whatever it was. I was available. Except for going to Brooklyn. Cause that was a longer train ride. But that idea of just to work really hard, because that's the internship, right? That's where you're learning every little detail and how you are going to. I don't know, that's the time, right? When you have nothing to hold you down. Like those early 20s.

[Amy Nicholson]

I feel that that's what, like, helped make you be Paul. That you knew people who are also funny who didn't commit like that and wound up doing something else with their life. I mean, like, I have this the same way. I was like a baby theater critic. I went to plays Friday night and Saturday night, usually Sunday night, usually Sunday afternoon as well, and often a Thursday. So I was at the theater, like, five times a week. I never had weekends off with my friends.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Like, I would always be like, okay, I'll meet you at a party at 10:30, because that was when I would get out of a play. I didn't have dinner with people for years. Like, over 15 years of my life, I didn't have dinner with people. It's still really hard to have dinner with people because I have movies, and it's like, that's just what I had to do with my 20s.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh. I mean, I. I botched relationships in a major way because I chose to perform. I chose to stay in town on New Year's Eve to do a midnight show. You know, I. I was not a good boyfriend, partner, whatever. But I also believe, like, I don't think you have to be in your 20s. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, if you're not going to marry the person forever, like.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, different fields. Different fields require different things. But I think, like, what we're talking about are fields in which, if you step off, the train keeps on going. Right. And then you have to wait for the next one. And those are hard choices. I mean, I wrote about one section in my book because it's so important to me, this moment where I was touring around the country making money, and I had the opportunity to stay in New York and do shows for free. So I'd be giving up money and something that didn't really make a difference, but it was kind of cool to do something that was very cool, where I would be struggling to pay rent and be able to buy food. That was a really difficult decision to make. It's the best decision I ever made. But it's not. It's not a safe or good decision because that could have backfired. And it has backfired for many people, too. Like, I don't think that that's. I wouldn't recommend it for my own kids, but it's like, you have to chase. Well, I would chase your own passion. Like, bet on yourself, Go that extra distance. But it's hard. It's hard to do.

[Amy Nicholson]

It is. And I think that takes us to, like, even the world of fashion, which is where my effort falls down a little bit because I'm an Andy, you know, like, yeah, I love Andy's outfits. Even in the early part, I'm like, cool sweater. Oh, I like that skirt everybody says is ugly, you know, because I don't like putting in the effort to be hype fashion. To me, I will not be uncomfortable. Like, I just cannot be uncomfortable. I will not wear heels. I cannot wear heels. My idea of heels is like a 1 inch kitten heel on a boot. And that's only every once in a while. And if I can wear my Nikes, I'm gonna do that instead.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that.

[Amy Nicholson]

But, like, Andy has to learn that to be in this world, that fashion does take effort. Fashion's not gonna be comfortable. Like, you have to appreciate the art of turning yourself into art.

[Paul Scheer]

We can.

[Amy Nicholson]

Which I'm not willing to do. But I appreciate that she does it. And I think she looks fantastic when she does.

[Paul Scheer]

And so does Shay Gilgeous Alexander when he commits to fashion in those post game interviews.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Exactly.

[Amy Nicholson]

But you know what? My guy, Austin Reeves, wears a sweatsuit every single day. And I think more than anybody else has killed the world of league fits, because it's like, whatever. He visibly will not try. And he doesn't have to because he shows it on the court. Whereas.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's a different level of it, too. I think that the interesting thing about this film is this conversation we're having, which is Anna Wintour or Miranda Priestley is not a bad person. She is an exceptional person. Do you want to make your life that. Do you want to live a life where you sacrifice everything for your career? A lot of people would say, yes. And then there are people who are maybe more in the middle and can balance and do a little bit of both. Then there are people who are like, nope, I'm out. Peace, I'm done. And, you know, it's interesting. I did a show or a segment with an unnamed actress, a very famous actress, and we were sitting around talking, and she said to me, she's like, wait a second. So you don't hang out at the Chateau. How do you get jobs? And I was like, oh, I just. I don't know. I work with my friends. I do different things. And that idea, by the way, she said that to me. And within the space of two to three years, she became giant. Giant. And I was like, oh, that's what you need to do. You're gonna go and hang out, hang at the Chateau here in Hollywood, and that will help you get seen or help you get out there. There are people who I. There are people I know who go out to every party, every premiere, take pictures of themselves out and about. And, you know, my wife and I always joke around about this. We're like, well, we could do. We could do that, but at what cost? And that's maybe where we are in our middle Age to be like, we can do one fourth of that, get a little bit of that, and then also live a life. And that's the balance that we've made.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I mean, when June does that, when June puts. When June gets dressed up, puts those pictures on Instagram, I'm like, good for you.

[Paul Scheer]

She looks fantastic. She looks amazing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Her be like, and I will do the thing now. Here I go. And she nails it.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's her. And that's her choice. But I think it's, you know, will you lose out because you're not doing it every night? I think that that's where we get FOMO from, right? The idea of, like, yes, if I'm not always out, then what am I missing and I gotta go out. Right? Or it's like, I'm comfortable enough to be like, you know what? I'm gonna take my shots. I'll take my best shots when I can. And let's be Luke Kennards. I'll put it in a Laker metaphor for you. Wait until you get your shot, and

[Amy Nicholson]

then it's be yours. It's fine.

[Paul Scheer]

And then you take your shot when you make. When you're ready to make that shot. And I feel like that's. And that's the way that I have chosen to live my life now. There's other people who keep on going.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think what you're saying is there's. You can live high pressure, mid pressure, low pressure, right? And that the way you choose to live is not. Oh, I'm gonna use a fashion metaphor. One size fits all right.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amy Nicholson]

Exactly. And so she leaves the high pressure. She goes to mid pressure. Her friends seem to, like, they might be in, like, low pressure, low to mid pressure. And that's what it is. You decide where you want to slot at the end of the day. And I mean, it is probably why when she's in the high pressure world, I want her to be with the high pressure guy. I think that Christian, the Simon Baker character, I'm like, oh, girl, be with him. Because what I see in him is that he at least appreciates her. He appreciates the effort. Where I get mad at people in this film is when they see her making the effort, and instead of saying, like, oh, she's gonna be high pressure, cool. They're like, I don't want to be high pressure. So therefore, her going high pressure is bad. And they don't appreciate the effort. Because really, what you're doing when you're watching this movie is you are watching Anne Hathaway bust her ass so hard at work. And nobody ever tells her good job, ever. Except for Christian. Like, nobody tells her good job. And you just want her to say. You just want somebody to tell her that she's doing an excellent job.

[Paul Scheer]

But don't you feel like that's life, Right? Like that? Like it's and I guess maybe that's the question. We can all approach it in a different way. But you can't expect it. You can't expect anyone to champion you. If it happens, great. If you get to surround yourself with people like that, excellent. But if you're looking for it, it probably won't come.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I mean, I'm not gonna say, like, Adrian Grenier's boyfriend is the worst boyfriend of all time.

[Paul Scheer]

I don't think so at all. I think his speech is even better when he says, you're talking to me like you're in this different world I'm making. You know, Demi Glace. Like, he's also an artist.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're mad because I work late all the time. And because I miss your birthday party. And I'm sorry.

[Paul Scheer]

Come on. What am I for?

[Amy Nicholson]

You hate Runway and Miranda. And you think fashion is stupid. You've made that clear.

[Paul Scheer]

Andy, I make port wine reductions all day. I'm not exactly in the Peace Corps. You know, I I wouldn't care if you were out there pole dancing all night. As long as you did it with a little integrity. You used to say this was just a job. You used to make fun of the Runway girls. What happened? Now you've become one of them.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's absurd.

[Paul Scheer]

That's okay. That's fine. Just own up to it. And then we can stop pretending like we have anything in common anymore.

[Amy Nicholson]

You don't mean that.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I do.

[Amy Nicholson]

But But, But, but, but where I think he really screws up is he doesn't get why she's doing it. Because they have that meetup later, and he says, oh, I basically think you did this for shoes. And when he says, you did this for shoes, then I get so mad. Cause it's like you didn't see what she was doing at all. You'd never understood why she did not do this for shoes. The shoes were a visible expression. Of how much she wanted what she was going after. But it was never about the shoes.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I mean, it's like they didn't date before the movie. Because she wasn't about the shoes before that. Nor did she even care. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. It makes me feel like he just didn't he didn't really see her, what

[Paul Scheer]

she was after, or he rewrote her to make it easier for him.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, but that said, you know, there is the scene where she gets stuck having to go to the Met gala. She misses his birthday. She comes home, she's got the cupcake. He gives her the silent treatment like he does here. Say that I kept trying to leave, but there was a lot going on and, you know, I didn't have a choice.

[Paul Scheer]

Don't worry about it and go to bed.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I will say, in that moment, I'm really mad at him. But then I take a second and it's like, you know, so much of watching the Devil Wears Prada is like, would we be mad at Miranda if Miranda was a male boss? Would we just think she was being, you know, the usual thing? I do think that boyfriend in the moment. If this was a movie about a guy who was a workaholic and he missed his girlfriend's birthday and the girlfriend gave him the silent treatment, we'd all be like, yeah, yeah, you should feel ashamed. So I am empathetic with him in that scene.

[Paul Scheer]

100% the right reaction to have. I understand that she had something bigger to do. I mean, my first year anniversary with June of our wedding, we planned a big trip to New York. We got tickets to go see Book of Mormon and another show, like, Impossible shows to get into at that point. That was with, like, GAD and Randall's in it. It was a big. It's a big deal. Made all these great reservations. And then June got this part on this failed sitcom, Failed now. Where, you know, at that point in her career, she's like, I want to. I gotta take this thing. I have a recurring role in this Hank Azaria sitcom. And I wanted her to take it. I did, and I got it. But I also then went to New York on my anniversary trip alone and just, like, kind of pulled in all my friends to go to the different things. Had a great time. But there was a little bit of, like, an anger that we didn't celebrate together in that moment. But I wasn't begrudging her career choice. And I think that that's what's interesting about his character. He's not like, yeah, he can be. You can hold two truths. Like, I'm sure that he's had nights where he had to stay late at the restaurant or make decisions. And maybe, you know, I don't know. I didn't find him to be. Nor did I find any character in this movie to be. Stereotypical. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I think he's a bad communicator. Like, I guess silent treatment isn't the best way of handling it.

[Paul Scheer]

But in that moment, I'll take it.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, but it's true what you're describing. Like, last year, my boyfriend and I missed both of each other's birthdays. Oh, wow. Like, I came back from Cannes right before my birthday. He was in Canada shooting a movie. And then he came back from Canada shooting his movie a week before his birthday. And I had to go to Toronto for the Toronto Film Festival. And it's just, ugh, I miss you. And this is what happens.

[Paul Scheer]

And it sucks. But we also. This is the agreement that we've made, I think, just kind of going back to what we were talking about before. Like, the three places that you can be, which is like, high effort, medium effort, low effort. That's what makes Stanley Tucci's character really interesting. Right. Because Stanley Tucci is in many respects the successful version of. Of Anne Hathaway, in my opinion. Right. He is secure in his job. He has a voice at the table. But he will never be Miranda. And he understands that. And at a certain point, he knows that the only way to get any power is to leave. And he is put in this position where he kind of is forced to stay and be a number two. And I think that that's another part of this equation which is, like, there is never a number one. Like, Meryl Streep will always be number one. You can get close. You can be in these different levels, but you'll never be Miranda Priestly. You can only be in service to Miranda Priestly because Miranda Priestly is in service to a higher calling as well.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And, yeah. Unless he leaves and then he can't. And the same thing with Emily. Like, Emily is technically the number one assistant, but she could be demoted at any time. And my heart goes out to her. I mean, that character's mean. True. That character's awful. But that character is under so much stress all the time. Like, that character's having a nervous breakdown right in front of us. You know, sitting alone at her desk, like, muttering this to try to keep herself going. I love my job. I love my job.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

I love my job.

[Paul Scheer]

And here's the thing to contextualize this movie, in my opinion. Less than a year. Right. So of course Emily Blunt is mad at Anne Hathaway because Anne Hathaway hasn't put in the time for them to have anything more than a mean relationship. How many Anne Hathaways have there been in her tenure? Right. Why get connected? Why be a part of it? It's not like at the end of the movie, Miranda Priest is like, you're my next person. No, she's just doing the job. And that's what I really love about it. I also love that, that ending moment where Anne Hathaway is going to interview at the New York observer or wherever she's interviewing at, and they're less than a year. And yeah, like, she hasn't put in time. She lived a very. She lived more than a year in a year, but she saw her future in that year and made a choice, a bold choice as a young 20 something. And I also think, look, Anne Hathaway on this set is probably in that same moment. Here I am, 21, I've done a couple movies, and I'm with the Queen. Like, when you think about the greats of acting, I think that most people would put Meryl Streep as like, the top person.

[Amy Nicholson]

Is she just the person in the dictionary, the synonym, the thesaurus, Meryl Streep?

[Paul Scheer]

And so, you know, you also have that. And, you know, and I think that, like, certain people I've talked to, you know, handful of people who've worked with directors and producers, and that's the moment. That's the moment that you see your life flash in front of your eyes. Like, is this what I'm chasing?

[Amy Nicholson]

And, well, even beyond that too. I think, like, at this time, Anne Hathaway is. Do you remember that Anne Hathaway dated this guy that she didn't know was a con man?

[Paul Scheer]

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, she was dating this guy. He was Italian.

[Paul Scheer]

I was working with her when she was in love with that man.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, no. Well, I heard that he was, like, not that supportive of her career and that while they were making this movie, when she had to shoot late nights, she'd get really stressed out or vulnerable because he was not cool about it.

[Paul Scheer]

Interesting. I mean, she's living this life. I mean, right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, I'm pursuing my dream and this guy's being testy about it and. Oh, no. And. And trying to make it work. And I think they were together a couple more years before it came out. What his real reality was.

[Paul Scheer]

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[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

What did you think about that ending moment? I mean, I know we have that like kind of looking across the street moment, but this is kind of the final words that we get between Miranda Priestley and Andy, which is her recommendation for her to write at the newspaper. And it's like Andy was the biggest disappointment she ever had as an assistant, but he would be an idiot not to hire her. Obviously. I think. Yeah, yeah, I think obviously you're like, okay, oh, she did like her. But I also feel that the first part is true as well.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think she means both. Yeah, I think she means both completely. I don't think she lies. I think she avoids, like when she knows she's gonna get maybe replaced. She's not lying to anybody about that. She's like avoiding telling her what the truth is until she has it sorted out. I think she never says anything she doesn't mean because why waste time, right?

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that why is she disappointment because she couldn't stick it out, right? Like there is just a, you know, I thought almost like there's an energy to her. Like you could have been great, but you aren't. And I think that's because I see

[Amy Nicholson]

a little of myself in you. Like maybe she saw her going all the way, maybe yeah, maybe.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

I don't know.

[Paul Scheer]

And what do you think about Nigel? I think part of me with Nigel. I want to say this before I give you my opinion on it, but I'm excited and upset to watch Devil Wears Prada too. I don't know if I want to know where these characters go.

[Amy Nicholson]

I know I haven't looked anything up about it or seen a trailer or read the book that they wrote. Like, I want to go in, I'm seeing the movie very soon. I want to go in and see it very blank. Can we come up with our own ending before we know what this ending is?

[Paul Scheer]

Absolutely, yes, please. So this is a non spoiler thing, but I mean, isn't it kind of great to see yourself though, as he's like, this is the transitional moment. Like, whatever happens after, who cares? In my opinion, it's not a movie about these characters. It's about who you want to be in the career that you chose to have. If you are doing. Yeah. Mm.

[Amy Nicholson]

Do you think she goes to Boston with her boyfriend?

[Paul Scheer]

No way.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, good. Me neither. Good. Yeah. All right. Do you think she forgives the blonde guy?

[Paul Scheer]

I think that at a certain point she forgives the Mentalist, that's Simon Baker. Um, I think that she has to because she gets it. I, I, I think that's one of those moments that stings but is not something that is a long lasting wound. Cause their relationship was so kind of caught up in the bullshit.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And I, I don't know if even what he did was that bad. Like, it's not like you wrote a tell all about how awful Miranda Priestley is through using quotes from her that he got out of her in bed.

[Paul Scheer]

That's what I thought was gonna happen. That's why the movie is so smart. It doesn't make it that personal. Right. It makes it business.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And I mean, he probably saw it as a world where, like, honestly, if he became the editorial director, he would hire her. It would be better for her in the long run.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. I mean. All right, so what about Althro to you then? Stanley Tucci? Where do you think he goes? Cause we know he's in the movie. I mean, that is true. We know that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Is this movie gonna give us her giving him the reins? Oh, I can't imagine.

[Paul Scheer]

I think he's in the same exact spot, which is actually a more tragic ending. Right. Like, how many more Andes has he seen in the last 20 years? How many? You know, there is something about, I mean, there's no, there's no one else kind of in the world besides Miranda. She has a team around her at that table, but we really don't know anyone. I think that Nigel is still doing Nigel.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, it's a It's heartbreaking because, like, the Nigel we have seen for most of this movie is stern. No nonsense, blah, blah, blah. But that moment with her where he lets his guard down around Andy. When he thinks he's getting this job for real. And you hear his actual voice come out, like who he actually is. And to hear the joy when he's like. I'm gonna finally get to see Paris. Call my own shots.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, like that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, I gotta play that. Because hearing the shift in how he even delivers his own lines. I think is really heartbreaking.

[Paul Scheer]

And James needs a partner. And that partner would be me.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, no, no.

[Paul Scheer]

Miranda knows, because oh, gee, put me up for it. Oh, God, no. You better.

[Amy Nicholson]

But but but you're leaving. I I can't imagine Runway without you.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm so excited, though.

[Amy Nicholson]

For the first time in 18 years.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm going to be able to call the shots in my own life.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, my God.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm going to be able to come to Paris and actually see Paris.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Well, congratulations, huh?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And then it just ends with that little note. Like, note of them sitting at the table. Like, she'll make it up to me. Are you sure about that? No.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's the thing that I feel like that's the movie turns on that dime. Which is, how could she do that to him? And if I stay here, I will just be I will be stepped on to keep her afloat.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think it's important to realize. When something has no loyalty to you deep down.

[Paul Scheer]

And she does, but she also will. Everything must go right. The baby is gonna go out with the bathwater. And she will take care of him. I don't think she's gonna ever do anything awful to him. But she knows, I think, that Miranda Priestly is smart enough to understand that. He got this job. He wants that job. That's where he wants to be. But and I think we can talk about this within the realm of every documentary about Lorne Michaels in the last year. And now there's a brand new one, which I'm very excited to see and I haven't seen yet. I think that there's a similarity between Lorne Michaels and Miranda Priestly. As I've just said this out loud for the first time, I'm like, oh, God, so much. The soft spokenness, the control, the power. The Number twos, the number threes, the people who leave, the people who stay. Right. He has surrounded himself in a world that is incredibly similar to Vogue and the power that they have. I would say the only thing that Lorne Michaels gets to have that she doesn't is he's much more insulated from the outside world. Right. Like, yeah, people can say SNL sucks, but people have been saying it sucks since 1976, so who cares? Right. And that's another energy and that loyalty that asked for. I read the book recently, and I was. I'm always blown away by the story that, you know, he didn't give John Mulaney a Weekend update. John Mulaney, who had been the head writer, who had been crushing every monologue, had been having so much success as a standup. And there was this moment where they're looking for a new anchor, and he didn't give him the job. And that's when Mulaney left. And yet he's been back and guest hosted and is, like, I think, as much of a staple on the show as, like, Buck Henry was in the early 70s and is incredibly talented. But, like, that's the same level of betrayal in my mind.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. No, it is true. And it means it puts the weight on you to make that choice. It all comes back to choice. Will you stay? Will you go? And if you go, how are you going to make the most of it?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. All right, so. And then I guess the other character would be Emily Blunt.

[Amy Nicholson]

I hope she succeeds. Honestly. I think she has worked so hard from it. I almost wonder if her character's name is Emily. Like, the way that Miranda is just calling everybody in that office Emily. Like, she might just. She is the personality who could probably be named Carlotta. She's like, I'm Emily now. I do not care. But, yes.

[Paul Scheer]

What if Emily has become Nigel, and Nigel is like, an elevated Nigel? Like, it's an. Like, you don't. Like, I don't know what that spot is, but there is a new spot. Like, and here's the bad pitch. Like, he's the head of Vogue Online. Right? Like, that's kind of how I feel. Like, we would see him. Like, he's. He's the fashion director, Right. So where does he go?

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, where can he go? Like, can he create a rival magazine? I mean, well, Anna Wintour in real life just retired. Well, retired. I mean, not really. She's, like, the way, I think the artistic director now of all of Conde Nast. Yeah, but they hired somebody in real Life for Vogue magazine last year, who is in the key of what happens in the movie is like young French American, she's Candice Bergen's daughter, is now the new head of Vogue, which is just like the biggest set of Manolos to fill. I don't know how anybody does that.

[Paul Scheer]

So I feel like based on both you and I knowing nothing, the only thing that I have seen so far is Adrian Guernay doing a Starbucks commercial about not being in the movie. That's the only thing I want. Really? Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

See, you are a completist.

[Paul Scheer]

I am. I've seen it all. I guess I was also kind of wondering and maybe this is outside of our conversation, but worth to bring it up. Well, what happened to the writer, the woman who wrote the book, which was Lauren Weisberger. Right. Cause I'm kind of fascinated. She sold this book in 2006 and where does she go from here?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I mean, I know that she wrote a sequel too. Right. But I don't know what she did in between. I think I feel like I kept seeing maybe her name pop up in like book review section. So I assume she kept writing, you

[Paul Scheer]

know, looking at a very quick Wikipedia, she, you know, wrote a follow up book where she got a million dollar advance for a book called Everyone Worth Knowing, which was based on the trials and tribulations of New York City public relations world. And then she had a third novel come out in 2008, which was another kind of New York book about people turning 30. And that book was secured by Universal to be a film, but it was voted the number one worst book of 2008 by Entertainment Weekly. And then she wrote Last Night at Chateau Marmont, which came out in 2010. She wrote Revenge Wears Prada, a sequel to the Devil Wears Prada, which came out in 2013. Wrote another book called Singles Game and it kind of goes on and on. Her last book was where the Grass is Green and the Girls Are pretty released in 2021. So there you go. I mean, interesting, you know, like she has had a great success as someone who's been able to sell books, but I believe that a lot of her books maybe aren't giving people that little like adrenaline, that little dopamine kick from the first book. You know, that might have been the story that she had.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, well, it's a good one. And if it bought her the freedom to be able to make her living as a writer for the rest of it, then it did its job, right?

[Paul Scheer]

Absolutely. I mean, absolutely. And like, and I think that I'm so curious about the difference between the book and the film because as we talked about it, it seems like so many people came in to make sure that this was actually something different. And I feel like as we talked about Hamnet, this idea that like when actors, directors and writers and producers see someone like Anna Wintour, they deal with them a little bit more with kid gloves. Right. Like I want to be the exceptional person. I want to be like this. And so I think that, you know, having everybody layer this character as an excuse for being bad at your own personal life, which is I think something that's always going on with people in at least entertainment industry. Like you actually get a cleaner, fairer or more interesting nuanced performance than just a kill piece. Because you're saying Meryl Streep, the director and the producers of this film are all very much hands on about making sure this wasn't a slam piece.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And I mean I want to see what a grown up Anne Hathaway, who I think is so good in this original.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh wait, I forgot about her.

[Amy Nicholson]

Does like twice her life later. Basically like twice as she was when

[Paul Scheer]

this came out essentially 20 years later. Where is she? In her early 40s?

[Amy Nicholson]

Good choices. I think Anna's. I really think Anna's one of like our all time great actors. I mean, I just saw Mother Mary the other day. Like the one where she's playing a pop star in a David Lowery film. She just goes for it.

[Paul Scheer]

Like there is my friend choreographed film.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, they did a great job. The choreography is wonderful. The costuming is wonderful. The costuming is by Bina Degler who was on the Berlin jury with me and she's just the absolute best. I love Bina, but yeah, I love Anna. Like I think Anne Hathaway has great taste and I'm. She controls this movie so well, you know, with like her empathy, her eyes, her glow. She does it. She like really lives up to the part. And I cannot wait to see what she is like as a grownup going back to this world.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, do you think that she's more like Miranda Priest or her own version of Miranda Priestly? I don't know. I don't know what would be fulfilling.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think, yeah, I wanna say she's like Christian. Oh, a name brand freelance writer who can call her own shots.

[Paul Scheer]

Honestly, I think that's the best way I would like to see her. Somebody who has retained that integrity but yet has managed to be successful. Because I think that's what the movie really rests on is, where can you find your success and keep your personal integrity? Because if she gives up her personal integrity, then why watch, Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, the last question, though. Like, I haven't looked this up either. Because I haven't looked up anything about. I, like, deliberately I'm standing up any IMDb because I don't want to know who's in the film. What about her friendship with Tracy Towns? Because, like, that girl contributing to the I'm keeping your phone away from you thing. I don't know if I could even forgive my friends. But they've been friends for 16 years. So I don't know. I mean, the trauma of this scene. I'm still mad. Nate, I got it.

[Paul Scheer]

It's up. Yep. The dragon lady.

[Amy Nicholson]

Miranda. Let me talk to her.

[Paul Scheer]

No.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, I need that. I'll tell.

[Paul Scheer]

I get her on Scrambled in.

[Amy Nicholson]

Lily.

[Paul Scheer]

No, no, no, no, no, no. That thing. Look that thing up.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's gonna answer. It's gonna answer.

[Paul Scheer]

That's how it's gonna make. Give me the phone bone.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hi, Miranda. Like, I can kind of get your female friend being like, you're different. You dress different. Really? Seeing her canoodling with Christian, not knowing what to make about it. But female friendships are so hard. I wonder if they're going to have forgiven each other.

[Paul Scheer]

I wonder if the movie does something where it's much more about, like, oh, she keeps me grounded. Here's my old friend. But they don't have it anymore. My movie sense says, you gotta bring her back.

[Amy Nicholson]

Right?

[Paul Scheer]

Like, from a narrative point of view, that's the only character outside of the world that you need to bring back. And I would say that she's the one.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm gonna say she keeps her grounded. Although I will say, you know, Aileen Brosh McKenna does a great job of, you know, you know, I think, tricking my expectations. So I'm curious. Maybe. Maybe she learned from her. Maybe she's like her. I don't know. But I'm gonna say that she's gonna be the grounding force in her life to be like, you gotta stay on feet on the ground.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, well, you know what? We'll probably do a summer check in with the blockbusters later on. So after we catch up with this one, we will check back Eddie and see what we say.

[Paul Scheer]

I love it. I just wanna talk about, as we wrap it up here, Anna Wintour's reaction to the film and the book, right? Anna Wintour did go to the premiere dressed in Prada. And she's like, I don't know, I don't know how I will be portrayed in this. And her reaction to the character, I guess I don't know if this is a full quote or just the way that people have intuited how she felt was that she felt it was a caricature and cartoonish and, you know, and that all of her friends that were worried about her needn't be. It was sweet of them to be, but, you know, whatever. And then I think many years later, she said, and I think this is kind of the difference between when you asked me earlier, like, what does Anne Hathaway think about, like, Simon Baker's betrayal of her? And I think it's. I said it stings at first, but later on, I think she gets over it. And I think that later on, when on a podcast, Anna Wintour said the movie was highly entertaining and called it a fair shot, and she did not feel wounded by the depiction. Now, I don't think that she would ever express it, but I think that she could maybe 20 years later, see that version of her and appreciate it more.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think that's fair. I mean, the best way to get through the world, having a public version of you that some people might think is a character or a parody before they realize that it might just be a nice way into the truth of the situation, is to put it on, like a jacket and then take it off when you don't want to wear it anymore and throw it on somebody else's desk.

[Paul Scheer]

Right? Because the truth is, this character is, for lack of a better term, cool. Right? Miranda Priestly, you don't leave this movie going, what a bitch. Right? You know, like, I think you leave going, like, this is a really complicated, successful woman, and it's something that we don't often see that much in film this way. And I feel like that's kind of the best compliment you can give is like, oh, yeah, Meryl Streep played me and is one of the defining characters of cinema. When you think about villain, or villain's such a tough word, but when you think about a boss character, she is up there. And really, I mean, this movie is Meryl Streep. And I think when you have a performance like that, why not. Why not embrace it?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, yeah, I think her willingness to do an entire scene without makeup to show the character's vulnerability without her having to say, I'm vulnerable, to do it just physically with her face. Letting us see Meryl Streep without makeup, like, that's bold and brave and really naked and revealing. And I think it's so powerful that she was able to do that.

[Paul Scheer]

Who was the chef that wore Crocs all the time? And I love Crocs. Yeah, that's. I think. What happened to Adrian Grenade?

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, he's a. He got canceled, right?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

He's a creep. He's a creep. Yeah. Just making sure. He's a creep on the long list of creeps. He's on it, right?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, he is. He is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. A guy like that who thinks he's very handsome as a chef doesn't make a lot of smart decisions, I would bet.

[Paul Scheer]

Come on. You're gonna be answering phones and getting coffee. You need a ball gown for that?

[Amy Nicholson]

I think I might.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I happen to think you look great always.

[Amy Nicholson]

Aw. I think you're full of it. Okay, I have a pitch to you of the movie I want to do next. This is, like, very sudden. I'm really insisting on wanting to do this all of a sudden, and I hope you say yes. There's one other movie that I think really gets to this dilemma of, like, should I stay? Should I go? Is my job worth it? Is it not? Um, well, there's two. One of them. We already did the Apartment, but what if we do the modern Apartment? What if we do Jerry Maguire?

[Paul Scheer]

Amy, I am so excited that you have brought this up, because it just celebrated its 30th anniversary, I believe, and was just re. Released in theaters. And I was like, I haven't watched Jerry Maguire since it came out. And I was like.

[Amy Nicholson]

He was like, guys, theaters. Know, I always want to do a Tom Cruise, but. Okay.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Oh, Amy, I'm very excited about this. I. I am a. I'm a fan. I. I am excited to. Well, we'll see if I'm still a fan. I was a fan of it, and I feel like it's an interesting film about career and cynicism and getting ahead and. And kind of betting on yourself. I. I love. I think that this is a. A really interesting companion piece.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, I'm so glad that you're on board. Okay. Perfect.

[Paul Scheer]

Excellent. All right, well, we will continue our conversation about the Devil Wears Prada on our substack. Uh, you can also follow us on social media, where we are pulling together really cool stuff from episodes past. We found old deleted things from the Truman Show. You could check that out. Really fun DVD special features. Our substack is full of great pictures and things that we can't always include in these episodes, so make sure you check that out. You just go to unspooledpodcast.com to get all the quick links or just search for us on substack. All right, Jerry Maguire is the next film that will be available wherever you get your streaming films. I believe right now it is on Netflix. So if you have a Netflix account, check that out. And by the way, if you're there, Black Monday just got put out on Netflix. So there you go. Get a double dip.

[Amy Nicholson]

It's such a good show. It's such a good show.

[Paul Scheer]

It's been fun. I've been watching again. I haven't watched a show that I've been in in such a long time that I. I'm enjoying it from a very neutral point of view. So, yeah, it's been fun.

[Amy Nicholson]

But I want to say if you're a Devil Wears Prada fan and you have not started watching Margot has money problems on Apple plus, the new Elle Fanning show about a girl who wants to be a writer trying to make it and having to get an onlyfans. It's amazing. And, oh, my God, it has the best Michelle Pfeiffer I've ever seen. My best girl, Eva Anderson, is one of the big brains behind it, and it's just wonderful. So watch this. I was at the south by premiere. It was so freaking funny.

[Paul Scheer]

I cannot wait to see this. I've been very excited. I gotta just start checking it out now. The pit's over. I can dive in.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Come to us.

[Paul Scheer]

Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds, and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison, and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now.

[Meryl Streep (clip)]

Foreign.

[Amy Nicholson]

For eight years, we've been asking the same question over and over again. How did this happen? My name's Mandy.

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And I'm Melissa. And we're the host of Moms and Mysteries, the true crime podcast. With over 55 million downloads, we're two

[Amy Nicholson]

Florida moms who are obsessed with mysteries. Each week we do deep dives into fascinating true crime stories.

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We cover everything from infamous cases like

[Amy Nicholson]

Casey Anthony to the bizarre and complex crimes right here in our home state, like the shocking murder of FSU professor Dan Markell.

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We bring you the facts, but with warmth and width you'd only get from two friends who have been hooked on mysteries since childhood.

[Amy Nicholson]

Join us for new episodes of Moms and Mysteries. Every Tuesday and Thursday.

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Listen to Moms and Mysteries on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

[Amy Nicholson]

Life moves too fast. Scrolling, swiping headlines, sound bites nobody's really seen, even the people everyone thinks they know.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm Evelyn.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm a television producer and director, and I've spent decades behind the camera creating shows with people everyone knows. On the podcast repn, I sit down with actors, creators, and change makers to hear their full story, the risks they took, the moments everything almost fell apart, and the lessons they live by. These are real conversations. No headlines and no sound bites. Just stories that show the human behind the success and gives you insights you can actually use in your own life. Every conversation is jam packed with inspiration and practical lessons. REPN is about courage. It's about grit. It's about being human. First, listen to repn wherever you get your podcasts.