The Muppet Movie (with BenDavid Grabinski)

Summary

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Unspooled Podcast: The Muppet Movie (with BenDavid Grabinski) - July 9, 2026

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and playful episode of Unspooled, Paul Scheer welcomes filmmaker BenDavid Grabinski (Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice, Happily, Scott Pilgrim Takes Off) to discuss The Muppet Movie (1979). As part of the “Dealer’s Choice” series, Grabinski chooses the film that inspired him to become a filmmaker, sparking an in-depth conversation about the movie’s technical marvels, emotional depth, meta-cinematic style, enduring humor, and legacy. The episode is filled with anecdotes, personal reflections, and a shared, open-hearted affection for the Muppets’ brand of optimism and artistry.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Muppet Movie as a Cinematic Turning Point

• Background: The film marked the Muppets’ leap from television to feature films, with Jim Henson striving to show the world that the Muppets were not just sketch characters, but could be cinematic leads (00:21).
• Technical Marvel: The technology pushed boundaries with in-camera effects—most notably, Kermit riding a bicycle and scenes requiring complex puppeteering involving underwater submersibles (09:39, 46:13).
• Thematic Depth: The movie functions as both a classic road-trip origin story and a meta-narrative about making movies and chasing creative dreams (13:59, 15:23).
• Paul Scheer:

  “The Muppet Movie is really the template for what Muppets are as we know them today. They are sincere without being naive, self aware without being cynical... always walking that tightrope between chaos and heart.” (02:20)

2. Personal Connection and Inspiration

• BenDavid Grabinski: The film is foundational to his creative life. Despite many interviews and events, he realizes, “I somehow did not pinpoint ever, in any of this shameless promotion, the movie that made me want to make movies, which is the Muppet Movie.” (05:03)
• Festival Experience: Watching it at the TCM Classic Film Festival with Paul Williams reaffirmed the film’s power and Williams' genius (05:25).

3. Puppetry, Performances, and Practical Effects

• Technical Achievements:

  • Innovative puppeteering (like Kermit riding a bike with a crane-operated marionette system).
  • In-camera stunts, including a 60-foot-tall Animal built for the finale (09:41, 55:58).
  • Henson’s personal commitment, like spending three days inside a custom submarine to perform Kermit underwater (46:13).

• Performances:

  • The artistry of puppeteers ensures the Muppets transcend being “just puppets”—even compared to then-famous ventriloquist acts (11:13).
  • Human actors take their roles seriously, enhancing believability and charm (12:36).
  • Notable: Michael Caine is often praised for his work with Muppets, but Charles Durning’s villainous performance in The Muppet Movie deserves similar acclaim (74:07).

• Notable Quote (Paul Scheer):

  “They do not feel like puppets... these transcend that. They are really like... almost like animated characters.” (12:13)

4. Meta-Narrative, Structure, and Influences

• Meta Layer:
  • The film opens with the Muppets watching their own movie, blurring lines between character and performer.
  • Jokes about screenplays allow for both adult and child enjoyment—“no kid watched this at, like, 8 years old, and they’re like, this is too inside Baseball. This guy’s reading a script... that never happens” (53:00).
• Inspirational Parallels:
  • The movie's self-referential approach influenced other works, including Scott Pilgrim and possibly even Lost’s afterlife sequence (50:06).
• Notable Quote (BenDavid Grabinski):

  “It’s funny, but it doesn’t break the reality either. I mean, they read the whole script to get caught up in the beginning, and then that is established... and it doesn’t wreck the reality because it’s like, okay, this is a movie, but then they are not actors or they didn’t get the script...” (54:49)

5. Music, Collaboration, and Emotion

• Paul Williams’ Contributions:
  • “Rainbow Connection” as the Muppets’ “When You Wish Upon a Star”—the emotional and thematic heart (18:18–20:28).
  • Henson’s collaborative spirit: rarely giving notes, but occasionally reshaping the movie’s story to make a song work (20:28, 22:07).
• Memorable Lyric:

  “There’s not a word yet, for old friends who just met.” (23:21)

• Song Integration: Every song serves the film’s themes—dreams, found family, perseverance with optimism (24:08).

6. Cameos and One-of-a-Kind Celebrity Casting

• Massive Celebrity Roster: The film features an all-star cast in small, sometimes understated roles (28:48).
• Not Played for Ego: Most cameos are intentionally underplayed or utilitarian, adding to the sense of play and community rather than self-indulgence (29:23, 32:53).
• Discussion of Dom DeLuise: Depending on your era, he’s either a live-action comedian or a prolific voice in animated films, underlining generational and medium-based differences (25:10).

7. Tone: Sincerity, Fun, and Dealing with Darkness

• Balancing Act: The film is earnest, not saccharine—a spirit the hosts lament is rare today. Stakes are real, with moments of danger and villainy that surprise even modern young viewers (13:59).
• Notable Quote (BenDavid Grabinski):

  “But some people are irredeemable... Kermit is validated where even though he tries to do the right thing and make that guy turn, it still doesn’t work. It is still realistic.” (15:23)

8. Impact, Legacy, and Timelessness

• Historical Context: Released in a post-Vietnam, uncertain America, the Muppets’ optimism acted as a tonic for cultural malaise without being naive (61:33).
• Universal Appeal: The only “dated” element is the roster of then-contemporary celebrities. Otherwise, its themes and humor feel untethered from time (63:07–64:06).
• Unique in Cinema: No significant arguments have arisen about the film’s meta-jokes or structure—a testament to how well it navigates playful, experimental film-making (60:50).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Magic of the Muppets:

  “They feel alive at every given point. They do not feel like puppets... they are almost like animated characters.”
  — Paul Scheer (12:13)

• Personal Inspiration:

  “I somehow did not pinpoint ever... the movie that made me want to make movies, which is the Muppet Movie.”
  — BenDavid Grabinski (05:03)

• On the Songs:

  “There’s not a word yet, for old friends who just met.”
  — Paul Williams’ lyric, highlighted by Grabinski (23:21)

• Meta Commentary:

  “There’s nothing in this show that is more meta than the Muppet Movie. And I don’t think anyone can argue that the Muppet Movie is not an accessible piece of entertainment.”
  — BenDavid Grabinski, reflecting on his Scott Pilgrim writing approach (53:00)

• On Earnestness vs. Meta:

  “Meta takes the place of, like, earnestness. And I think this movie shows... you really, really have to be hard on your own work and make sure that it’s not the wrong kind of flippant. But the Muppets... they’re so close, but they’re always sincere.”
  — BenDavid Grabinski (58:09)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:21 — Paul Scheer’s intro: The movie’s context, themes, and why it’s the chosen film.
• 05:03 — BenDavid shares why The Muppet Movie sparked his desire to make films.
• 09:39–11:05 — Analysis of practical effects, especially Kermit riding a bike.
• 13:28 — Paul Williams’ “Kermit as Jimmy Stewart” observation.
• 18:18–23:29 — Discussion of music, “Rainbow Connection,” and Henson’s creative process.
• 24:08–25:10 — How music and lyrics inspire and connect.
• 28:48–33:36 — The era and meaning of the film’s many famous cameos.
• 46:13–48:34 — Details on the extraordinary physical demands of Muppet puppeteering.
• 53:00–55:49 — The script-within-a-script gag and its legacy for meta-filmmaking.
• 61:33–63:24 — Reflection on the film’s release era and universal optimism.
• 74:07–77:41 — Praise for Charles Durning’s villain performance and acting against Muppets.
• 80:52–83:59 — The magic of mixing tones, genres, and emotions in one film.

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Final Reflections

• The conversation (and laughter) consistently circles back to one fundamental point: The Muppet Movie is a technical marvel and a warm-hearted, affecting story about creativity, community, and resilience. It achieves a tricky blend of meta, comedy, sincerity, and spectacle without feeling forced or calculated.
• The episode closes on a note of gratitude and joy, with Paul and BenDavid celebrating both the movie's capacity for childlike wonder and its deep influence on generations of filmmakers and fans.
• Closing Quote:

  “That’s the kind of dream that gets better the more people you share it with. And, well, I found a whole bunch of friends who have the same dream and it kind of makes us like a family.”
  — Kermit, quoted by BenDavid Grabinski (88:11)

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For further deep dives, head to the Unspooled Substack; and for those wishing to revisit the film, The Muppet Movie is now streaming on Disney+.

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Transcript

[Paul Scheer]

The year is 1979.

[Ben David Grabinski]

Oh. Oh, listen. See, Kermit here, he was living in the swamp. Fozzie.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And then a fisherman came along.

[Ben David Grabinski]

Fozzie, you can't tell him the whole story. You'll bore the audience. Oh, sorry. But come it. The band here wants to know. Well, let him read the screenplay. Ah, yes, sir.

[Paul Scheer]

This is the Muppet Movie. Hello, everybody. Welcome to unsp. Hi, I'm Paul Scheer, and this is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed, EMS, normally I am joined by my co host, LA Times film critic Amy Nicholson, to talk about the films that people consider the best ever made. But while she is away, we are leaving our lists and focusing on one person, one person's favorite film. Something that they find is maybe underappreciated or. Or just a classic that's a little left of center. A film that doesn't get enough love. This is Dealer's Choice, a series where our guests get to choose what movie they need to talk about and anything goes. Today, we are talking about the 1979 Muppet Movie. Now, just to give you an idea of where we're at, Jim Henson is at a turning point. The Muppet show has become an international hit, but it lives on television. And Henson wants to prove that the Muppets can carry a real movie. But. But the question is scale. I mean, how do you make these, you know, felt characters who thrive in sketch comedy and variety formats, and give them something that is substantial, that is worthy of a film? And the answer becomes the Muppet Movie. It's a road movie structured like a Hollywood origin myth, where Kermit the Frog leaves a swamp and heads to Los Angeles to make millions of people happy. It's a narrative and it's a meta commentary on film. I mean, the Muppets are simultaneously characters in a story and. And performers trying to break into show business. Now, Henson brings along James Frawley to direct, but the tone and the voice of this film are really shaped heavily by Jerry Jewell and Jack Burns, who are the writers. They understand the humor of the Muppets. Now, technically, this film is a leap forward. The team develops new puppeteering techniques, including Kermit riding a bicycle in full view, a moment that feels like movie magic. I mean, this was. How did they do it? The central conflict is deceptively simple. I mean, Kermit is pursued by Doc Hopper, a fast food magnet who wants him to become the spokesperson for a Frogs. Frog Legs fast food franchise. It's a villain that is absurd and oddly grounded in corporate greed. And it's released in 1979. It is a major success, both commercially and critically, proving that the Muppets can sustain a feature film, expanding Jim Henson's creative ambitions. Now, honestly, the Muppet Movie is really the template for what Muppets are as we know them today. They are sincere without being naive, they're self aware without being cynical. And they are always walking that tightrope between chaos and heart. Now, who picked this movie? Well, very interesting. This is a good friend of mine. He is a writer and director. His latest film, Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice, is available on Hulu and Disney. It is fantastic. I think you'll really like it. He also directed the 2021 film Happily with Joel McHale. He is the creator and showrunner, and he worked alongside Brian Lee o' Malley on Scott Pilgrim Takes off, which is also on Netflix right now. And if you've not watched that, oh, get into it. We talked about Scott Pilgrim on the show at length, and it's a wonderful compliment to it. Anyway, please welcome to the show. Ben David Grabinski.

[Ben David Grabinski]

Hey.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It is so great to be here and to virtually hang out with the other star of Happily, Paul Sheer.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. I have worked with you, and you are an amazing.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I was waiting for that bit.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, I was going to go there, but then I figured, no, at least give you a proper introduction. You are. You know, I wanted to not. I don't. I don't like when people cut down or make it seem like, oh, well, the only reason why you're here is because we work together. No, you are writer, director, extraordinaire. You got movies coming out. You are in demand. Your movie, Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice, I loved. We talked about this at Vidiot's and you got done doing a very big press run. How does it feel getting a movie out into the world? Because I think that this is also kind of what Jim Henson is experiencing with the Muppet Movie. You've worked so hard and it comes out there. It's now a few weeks after. Do you feel drained or are you reinvigorated? What are you feeling?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, the. There's sort of a multi prong answer here that also directly relates to why I'm here today, which is part of putting it out is you do a thousand interviews and you go on a million podcasts and everyone asks you, like, questions like, what made you want to watch movies? Or like, what are your favorite movies? And, you know, I did a whole Thing with the American cinema tech about it. And I got to the other end of it and realized I somehow did not pinpoint ever, in any of this shameless promotion, the movie that made me want to make movies, which is the Muppet Movie.

[Paul Scheer]

I love this.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And I just watched it again at the TCM Classic Film Festival last week with Paul Williams doing a long Q and A. And it really reaffirmed to me, one, that it's just an unbelievable movie, and two, that Paul Williams is the best. But I'm gonna stop numbering things because it's gonna get confusing saying, like, one and two and whatever. But the question of how am I doing? You know, the honest answer is, the thing that was helpful was we had finished the movie last summer, and then they thought the really, the best release window was this spring. And we're also hoping that we could get into south by, which we did. But it's sort of like I had two different, you know, stages of grief or whatever, where it's like I got to sort of spend a couple months acclimating to be a normal human being, where I wasn't spending all day, every day making the movie. And it's like, once I finally felt normal again, I had to do the release cycle. So I felt a little bit more sane by the time I did it. And it's also, you know, it got so compacted where it really felt like between, like, south by and the release, there was, like. It came out, like, two weeks later. So it's like I was just, like, overdosing on promotion, and then it was out and it was over. And I'm, you know, back in New York, humbled, living with, like, my cats. And I don't feel important anymore, which I think is really good for everybody. No.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Get lifted up and pulled back down into the real world again.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah. And my life is so odd because if I'm directing, it's like you're talking to a thousand people a day. As you know, there's a million decisions you have to make, a million things going on. But I'm back in writing mode because I owe some scripts to people. And it's the complete opposite existence, where it's like you'll go eight hours without talking to a soul, and you're just typing. And it's a very weird job that these things are so different. It's either complete isolation or. Or overstimulating social shit. Unschooled.

[Paul Scheer]

I feel like controlling a set is really difficult. And this is what I wanted to talk to you about. In just the scope of what the Muppet Movie was. Because the Muppet Movie did something that is very odd, which is they brought in an outsider to, to direct a troupe. Like the Muppets were this tight knit group and they bring in James Frawley and be like, can you make this look cinematic? And if you don't know that much about Muppets, it's. You can imagine it's very hard to shoot this because you have people that are underneath every frame. They're wearing monitors, they're being pushed around on dollies. You have multiple Muppets in a scene. How do you block and frame this and, and make your days right? Because it's a puzzle piece. And I feel like every shot of this movie is a. Oh my God. Wait, what? Because we've never seen the Muppets really from waist down. And this movie and every scene is trying to show you, like, oh, he's in a body of water, he's on stage performing, he's riding a bicycle, he's swimming. You know, there are so many of these moments throughout and I could only imagine a director coming in as an outsider and really not knowing what to do. I mean, Austin Pendleton has said it was a nightmare having this gentleman on set, James Farley, lovely guy, but he just didn't know how to. To direct. You're directing almost two levels of people. You're directing Muppets and you're directing the Muppeteers.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, I think about all of that and I have to say, genuinely, like, you know, doing two Vince Vaughn's, you know, having motion control, which is

[Paul Scheer]

in your movie, Mike, Nick and Alice.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah, incredibly difficult. There's way more effects on my movie than anyone could imagine. But I have to tell you, I think the most impressive special effect in movie history is a Muppet riding a bike.

[Paul Scheer]

It.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I don't. I don't think there's a close second.

[Paul Scheer]

I 100% agree. And when I saw this as a kid, it blew my mind because it looks so real. And I was learning how they did that shot, which was basically they created a giant marionette like system working off of a crane. Uh, so the puppet or the Muppet, you know, Kermit was being controlled from above and the bike was on the road like, again, a technical marvel, but it was all done within camera. There was no CGI here. Everything was. I guess the, the only thing that was done with a little bit of blue screen at this point, not even green screen, was the dancing sequence with Fozzie and Kermit. On the stage, but done practically in this movie. And that just blows my mind. I think that's why that effect looks so good, too.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah. It's like I. You know, I feel like I understand how movies are made, but there is a level of disbelief. I enjoy watching the Muppets where I really, somehow. It's one of the only types of movie where I can really turn off my brain and I stop thinking about how they made it. Because there is something just so magical to me about the performers and how distinct the personalities are and how present they actually feel in the frame where. It doesn't matter how many times I watch these things, I'll occasionally, like, if I'm watching Muppet Christmas Carol, say, oh, that's a nice matte painting.

[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Or, oh, I like this model. But then my brain goes just back to being like, they are living people. That's Michael Caine talking to another actor.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, that's the thing. And Michael Caine. We talked about this. We did a Muppet Christmas Carol film on the show a little while ago. But one of the things about it is he treats them like real people. And all the cameos here treat them real. Like no one's reacting to these characters. I think that's part of the charm of them. They are not questioned in any way, but, man, it is. It's really funny. I've worked with the Muppets twice, and when you are in breaks, they're staying in character, which is, to me, one of the biggest treats ever. And they're staying in character in a certain way, which was when I worked with Waldorf and Statler. We were in between shots and they were complaining about working on the Dark Crystal and that to me. But in the Waldorf and Statler voices, which I just wanted to shut up and watch them do this about how uncomfortable it was and what a pain in the ass it was, but it was totally tonally correct. And I feel like that energy, I don't know what it is, but they feel alive at every given point. They do not feel like puppets. And Charlie McCarthy is in this movie with Edgar Bergen, and that looks like a puppet. That is a puppet next to a man. And God bless him, he did an amazing job. But these transcend that. They are really like. They're almost like animated characters.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah. It's like, I. There's been nothing like it before or nothing like it since. And, you know, there's been other puppets and movies and there's, you know, brilliant animatronics and.

[Paul Scheer]

Sure.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But there is just something about these characters and the fact that they all just are such clear personalities, you know, and they have such clear behavior, the performances. They all feel like you're never. I don't even mean it visually, just miss Piggy and Gonzo. Incredibly different characters as obviously it sounds. Kermit is his own guy. And also, you know, it's fascinating, you know. You know, I saw Paul Williams do you know, as I said, at the TCM Classic Film Festival, and he basically said that he thinks that Kermit is like the Jimmy Stewart of our era.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And it's also because he's just perpetually around.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But I had not thought about him as like a Jimmy Stewart type. So now I really need Muppets Vertigo.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, I would love to see. I would love to see that.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, that's. I think that, you know, it's sort of. We need to do plug and play anything that Jimmy Stewart did. I now want to see Kermit in that environment. And I. Because I think it. I think they. They are almost one to one in that way. I feel like he could do Zuzu's petals, any of those things.

[Paul Scheer]

To me, he represents the core philosophy about the Muppets, which is he can get frustrated, he can get mad, but he is sweet and kind hearted without being saccharine. And I feel like that's the balance that I think has been hard to always fully capture about the Muppets. Like, how do they keep this energy that makes them feel like real people and not just they're not for kids, But I think a lot of people assume, oh, the Muppets are for kids. But no, these are adult. Like, Kermit is an adult. He makes mistakes. I mean, this movie is very adult. I saw it as a kid and I loved it as a kid. But when I was watching it with my son, who is 9, he was just like, shocked at the fact that they're shooting guns at Kermit, you know? Right. Like Doc Hopper is coming after him to kill him or take his legs. Like, there are stakes in this movie that you don't really see in. In a normal family film, I should say. Right. Cause this is a family film. But it definitely. I think, you know, I know that you said that this is one of the movies that made you want to make movies. This is a meta movie. It's a movie about making a movie. It's a movie about their origin story. It starts with them watching a cut of their movie. And the whole premise of the movie is life is A movie. So make your own ending. I mean, I love. I love all that.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, the funny thing is, when I was watching it this time, what I realized is it does a real magic trick, which is that the thesis of the movie is that we all should really believe in each other. And, you know, we should be, you know, optimistic and hopeful and, you know, we're all in this together. But some people are irredeemable. Like, you know, it does a good balance because he gives a big speech to Doc Hopper at the end, and he's like, ah, fuck it, now, let's just still kill the frog. And I think it's. It's a really kind of beautiful thing where it's, like, it doesn't. It's why I. I really think that it has, like, a value in terms of, like, inspiring people and kind of getting you out of, like, your drudgery and cynicism, because it is still realistic. And it's not because, like, it's saying that some people are pieces of shit, you know, and. And. But some people aren't, like. You know, it's like Kermit is validated where even though he tries to do the right thing and make that guy turn, it still doesn't work. I also think I wanted to say is. What I was just thinking about is I really love, in movies or TV shows when you can feel the real emotion of the creator of, like, the stress of being in charge and how it gets channeled into a leader character. Yeah, the way that Kermit feels. Like there's moments in there that are, like, the pressure Henson's felt about being in charge or, like, the way that, like, you're trying to do right for people, but also, like, you know, you have to think about yourself. And the. The funny thing I just thought of was, like, the first season of Lost, Jack is, like, really kind of losing it, and he doesn't want to be a leader, but he's been forced into it. And there's something that felt so real about it. And I remember a long time ago finding out that, like, Damon was channeling his own frustration at suddenly being a showrunner and having to, like, have all of this in front of him, right. And having. And being stuck in this situation and having to embrace it, and the way that. That parallels what Jack is going through. There is something very. You can. I can just sort of tell when a character who's in charge and going through it is. It's being written from a place of someone who, like, has been there. There is Something kind of charming to me about, you know, it's funny because it's a movie about making movies, but also, as all filmmakers do, we try to make every movie seem like it's about making movies. Luckily, this one is.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And I think that it's, you know, a lot of Kermit stuff is like trying to be a director but be kind, you know, and, you know, trying to work on your own career, but also help the other people around you. It's like a very. Right, you know, I'm just making it.

[Paul Scheer]

No, but I think what's so interesting about that, too, is I imagine the tension on set that Austin Pendleton is talking about and a few other people did as well, which is, like, you bring in this other person, you feel responsible for this other person, you want to make it good. Like, there's so many things that he's balancing to keep everybody happy, because at the end of the day, he is the centerpiece. It's not like actors that go home. This is his. The Muppets are his creation. He's brought these people in, and, you know, he says this movie is autobiographical to a certain extent. It's like, I left the South, I came to Hollywood to make my dreams come true. I found these friends. We overcame adversity. Like, he is, like, I think, to your point, a leader. This is a story about him trying to make this movie about the Muppets, you know, and it really. It just kind of keeps on folding in on each other. That's why I feel like it's so layered and deep, and I. I'm really just impressed by it. Watching again, I hadn't watched it in a long time. I. I avoided this movie a lot in my middle years because it had too many songs. And I went to Muppet Caper because I was like, I like the Muppet Caper more. There's more jokes. And that was at least my kid point of view on it. But the songs here are amazing. You saw it with Paul Williams, and I thought there was a really interesting thing that Paul Williams and Jim Henson talked about. I don't know if he spoke about this, but basically, Paul Williams has said, Jim Henson, let me make all the music. He said, it will be great. We'll deal with it when we get it. It'll be great. He didn't want to. He didn't want to kind of get in there and, like, just mess with anything that Paul Williams is doing. But they did talk a little bit about this idea of having the rainbow connection kind of be The. When you wish upon a star like the Di. Like this. This song. Like, what is the song that captures the spirit of the Muppets, captures the spirit of teamwork and building together and kind of finding this rainbow. And I thought that that was just even more beautiful now. I mean, that song, obviously, is a beautiful song, but, wow, even I love that idea of, like, this is their. This is their mantra in a song.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's funny, he told a story that I found really moving. Man, this could be, like, the most earnest I've ever been on a podcast. But that he told a story that really, really moved me, which was that every time he presents something, that Henson's attitude was just like, all right, it's perfect. Great. No notes. And. But then when he played for him the song that Gonzo sings, like, near the end of the second act, it's a beautiful song. And it's dark.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Well, he said. He played it for him, and he said Henson's like, I don't get it.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, wow.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And I really bummed him out. And he's basically. I'm paraphrasing terribly, but Henson's like, yeah, I just don't feel like that's right for that point in the movie. And then he said, some time passed, and Henson came back to him and goes, okay, so I found a way to make your song work. So I added a scene where Gonzo has a bunch of balloons and he floats off into the sky. And any other character would be so scared, but he's not. He's just joyous. And he's like, so if I have that scene, then your song can be like, it's a setup and payoff. Where now that song has a function where it can literally be about the balloon scene, and it also can, you know, just work as a metaphor. And that's genius. Shit. Yeah. I mean, but also just the fact that he found a way to make it work instead of being like, go back to the drawing board and write a new song, he's like, I have to make it make sense in my own head. And I think that's, like, a really wonderful level of collaboration, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Right. And I feel like, you know, sometimes the best collaboration, too, is not always understanding what someone is doing, but letting it affect you. Right. I think that's the hardest thing to do as, like, a leader in anything creative. Right. Because you have your way of doing things. And there are certain directors who are like, nope, I see it this way. I want it that way. And that's all. But then you work with people who are really talented. I think this is the goal. And they take what you want and they interpret it maybe differently, or they give you something different. And it. And the gut reaction is, no, no, that's not what I wanted. I wanted it like this. But when you have those moments where you can actually see, like, oh, it can work together. It's like, how do you take somebody else's genius and fold it into yours? And I think that that's a. That's the hardest skill, I think, of. Of making movies, making anything in a way, like making people feel like they are part of the process and also allowing yourself to change what you wanted, you know, as long as it's on theme. And overall the plot of what you're doing.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's funny. I noticed when I saw it this time, the lyric that I could really see hit like an atom bomb for a lot of people around me. And it's from that song where it's.

[Ben David Grabinski]

There's not a word yet. Our old friends who just met.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah. Which is like a genius line. That's one of those things where you're just like. You could spend a whole career trying to write a lyric that good and fail, but just Paul Williams is Paul Williams. Like, as you're mentioning earlier, he said that his goal of Rainbow Connection was like, to write something 1% as good as when you wish upon a star. And it's like. And he. And then he just did way better than, like. I'm not saying it's a better song, but I said he did way better than something that was just like a pale imitation. It's fascinating to me. Like, how do you. It's like every. Every song in the movie works, and how often is that the case, you know? Right.

[Paul Scheer]

And that song, which is supposed to be this, like, you know, this kind of The Muppet theme, in a way, is also so layered through the movie because, you know, it opens up on this. I think the rainbow connection is a creative impulse, right? It's like, you know, we have to keep on dreaming of what we believe in, and we'll create this thing. And. And. And even if we mess it up, which is like Gonzo knocks over something at the end and the whole set collapses. The entire dream of the movie is destroyed, only to open up the roof of the studio in a real rainbow to come in. You know, like, okay, well, guess what? That one thing, that one door closed, this other door opened. It's like. It. It does. It is a beautiful connect. I mean, it's A rainbow connection, but it's a beautiful connection of, like, this. He found his rainbow, he found his people. He. He is on this journey with them. I. That ending really got me.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Unschooled. So I got to ask you a question. Who is Dom DeLuise to you? It's a thing I was thinking about today.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, and who do I think he was? Because I have a theory on who I think he's playing.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Well, I'm saying to you. I'm saying, like, just as a performer in your life, were you, like, a big movie fan when he was, like, a thing?

[Paul Scheer]

So I was a big Cannonball Run fan as a kid because I thought that those movies were great. And I love Burt Reynolds and Dom DeLuise from Cannonball Run, and. And my parents showed me Fatso, which is a little bit more depressing. But. And I also watched a movie called this Is the. Is it called this Is the End or the End where, like, Burt Reynolds has to kill himself? It's like, it's a suicide of the end. And so I had a familiarity with him. As I've gotten older, it's changed, but I definitely was. Dom DeLuise is from Cannonball Run, and I've watched all three of these Cannonball Run movies. That's who he is to me. He's funny. That's to me. Yeah. Who is he to you?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's interesting because when I was a kid, he was like a cartoon voice actor to me. Like, he was like a guy who was in. I'd say it feels like half the animated movies I saw as a kid.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, you're right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I didn't even think about that Dom DeLuise in it. And I, you know, had missed, you know, sort of all of that stuff. And I didn't connect that the guy from the opening, the Muppet Movie was the guy who was in all these things because it was like the American Tale movies, a lot of. Like, the. Don Bluth, right?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

All Dogs Go to Heaven and the All Dogs Go to Heaven. That, to me, was. You know, I didn't understand the cleverness of him being paired with Stallone. And the funny thing is, recently I've been on this weird tear where I was looking up an old episode of Siskel and Ebert, and then it just kept autoplaying old Siskel and Ebert episodes, and it randomly kept doing older episodes of Dom DeLuise movies. So it was like I was getting this weird accidental thing of, like, they're covering Fatso, right? And then there was Some movie that he wrote, directed, and starred in. And it was just. I kept seeing all these movies where they were just, like, ripping into him. And I was just like, I'm not prepared. It's really interesting to, like, have an artist mean one thing to you.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, but.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But Dom DeLuise to people, was not the cartoon voice guy. I just happen to know his work from that. But it's funny now, like, going back on it, because to me, it was like. It felt like he was in every cartoon I saw as a kid, and that was, like, his main function.

[Paul Scheer]

And for me, it felt like he was in every funny movie, because I think that they were these movies that I could watch as a kid that were pg. And there's, like, a movie they did with Gene Wilder. Like, it was A Haunted Honeymoon. And I was like, he was in that. That's probably a terrible movie, but I loved it as a kid. He was in Johnny Dangerously, which was like, a parody of, like, gangster movies. And I love that. I don't know if these movies are good, but he was in Mel Brooks movies. So the. The only movies that I saw or that I was, like, seeking out as a kid that were, like, comedy. He seemingly was popping in them all the time. So that was. It was interesting. I didn't know him more than that, like, as just being the funny guy, the funny, funny guy. And every now and then I would catch him on Carson or something like that. You know, that would be like the other. You know, the other part. But he is. I mean, you look at his IMDb page, and it's. It is. It's. I did not know he did this much animation. It really is. It's wild. And he's so good. And obviously in this, he's playing like, Bernie Brillstein, right? Like, it's Bernie Brillstein discovering Kermit. His name is Bernie in the movie. And he's like, you got to go out to Hollywood, kid.

[Ben David Grabinski]

And.

[Paul Scheer]

And he does. And it's not even a very funny part, necessarily. I mean, it's a little funny. And this is the thing that I was kind of fascinated by in the film. This has, like, 16 different cameos, and they're giant stars. I mean, it's James Coburn, Madeline Caan, Telly Savalas, Carol Kane, Paul Williams, Melton Berle, Elliott Gould, Edgar Bergen, Bob Hope, Richard Pryor, Steve Martin, Mel Brooks, Cloris Leachman and Orson Wellesley. But they don't play, like, cameos or I guess I don't know what that secret is there, right? It's weird.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

That's one of the things I wanted to talk about was, you know, as a kid when I saw it, these were just funny people who were well cast. You didn't. Because I was thinking about it and I think it's the first time I saw Steve Martin.

[Paul Scheer]

I think so too.

[Ben David Grabinski]

Waiter.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yes, May I help you?

[Podcast Narrator (Glass Cannon podcast promo)]

The.

[Ben David Grabinski]

The wine, please.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You mad, impetuous thing.

[Ben David Grabinski]

It's champagne. Not exactly. Sparkling muscatel.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

One of the finest wines of Idaho.

[Ben David Grabinski]

Well, you may serve us now, please. Oh, may I?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And to me, it was just the funny guy in his shorts who is just crushed every single thing he did. I think that was, I think truly almost everybody in this movie who has a one off scene. This was my introduction to them, but I didn't think of it that way. It just felt like to me, it's just like, here's a new funny person. And you're like, later discovered that is who it is. And it's also like a tradition that's gone where there used, it used to be a thing where there's just like this big collection of like of the moment cameos where people behave as if, hey, it's me. And there's something charming about how dated that can become with some of these movies where I really almost wish we did this more often, where it's like, well, it take the eight most famous people of May 2026 and just have them be each of these little parts. It's like instead of just being like, oh, we're going to get a character actor for this little scene. It's like, no, we're just going to have somebody show up. And functionally, I assume this is because some of them had been hosts. This is how not prepared I am.

[Paul Scheer]

No, you don't have to be. You don't have to be.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But I'm curious how many of them were people who'd been on the Muppets.

[Paul Scheer]

I believe that the majority of them had been. But I also think part of that, like, cleverness is they're all not super funny. Like Steve Martin, hands down, is, I think, the funniest cameo. And I would say next to that, Mel Brooks. They both are. I mean, Mel Brooks is like chewing the scenery. Steve Martin is doing like absent minded waiters. But then I was thinking about it and this is no sight on either one of these performers. I think they're both great, but like, Richard Pryor is not, like, he's not going for jokes in that scene. And nor is Bob Hope. Like, they're just kind of Just act. There they are. They are essentially doing, like, an under five in a movie. Like, they're. It's. It's not like, oh, like. And I think that that's part of the fun of it, is that, oh, yeah, Bob Hope is just the ice cream vendor, and that's it. Like, you know, he's. He's not. He doesn't do a bit, I guess that's what I think maybe is that thing that kind of connects them. It's like, oh, it's cute to see. It's fun to see. But they all. They don't feel like they are needy. Like, they're. I gotta make it. I gotta make my mark in this scene. Um, and I thought that was like, even Telly Savalas, like, he just kind of pops up and it feels like they were having fun. Like, they wanted to be in it. Like. And that's what I think it is maybe, too. It wasn't like, we got to get these celebrities. It was like, no, no. Telly's, like, a friend of ours. We got to get him in the movie. Oh, he's like, oh, yeah, absolutely. When do you need me? I'll come for two hours and shoot this.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I mean, they're all functional and charming, which is all they really need to be. But it's like, you know, you have Lee. Was it Lee Marvin?

[Paul Scheer]

It is. James Colburn. Is it? Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

James Coburn. Sorry.

[Paul Scheer]

No problem.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

As the. I am the owner.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Everyone comes in and they're like. They're, like, committed to the bit, and then they get out of their costume and go home and they also. It's sort of also similar to how a lot of kids movies used to have these innuendos that meant nothing to you as a kid. And you don't know why the adults are laughing, but you're not bored by it. There's like, these kind of. These tropes that are not used in the same way anymore that I find, you know, I just think it's amusing. It's like, you know, when you. Like Peter Falk showing up in gray. Muppet caper. Now, Columbo is my favorite thing in the world.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Then it was just the charming guy sitting on a park bench, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Like, it almost just. It's later in life, you kind of get a secondary enjoyment from these movies now that you know who everybody is.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that, like, because, again, this is a movie I watched as a kid, and I didn't know a majority of them, but I knew what I thought was Funny. Right? Like, and that. And. And I do think that it is. There's something kind of special and cool about, I guess, people just wanting to play. And I think that. That, like, when we were doing stuff on Adult Swim, that was one of the best lessons I ever learned, which was, like, I never chased after anyone who didn't want to be there. And when you. When someone said yes to come on and do something on ntsf, it was always like, oh, they know the money's not great. They must have liked it, and they're gonna have fun. And every single person who came to set just had fun. And that's why we get people like, you know, you would get, like, Ray Liotta and Brie Larson and Steven Yuen and, you know, all. And, you know, just these great people coming in because maybe a. They're not asked to do anything else, like, in this way or just be funny in a certain way. And I feel like that's why it's always worth taking a shot. It's always worth asking someone. I wanted to draw to you, too, because you have put Steven Root in all of your films so far, and even in Scott Pilgrim, and he's another one of these guys who, when he appears on screen, you're just like, ah, great. I'm excited. You just sit back and you're excited, but you don't use him in the same way. And I feel like you give him different things to do, and he is just kind of wonderful. And I love that, like, that, like, that ability to see somebody, to give them something that they would want to do, but also know that he's down for it. He's down to play in any way.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah, it's. I always like when filmmakers have, like, featured players or, like, people who keep showing up in their movies. I mean, that's.

[Paul Scheer]

Preston Sturges is, like, my favorite for that. Like, this whole crew.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah. I remember. I think the first time I'd thought about it was. It was, I think, the audio commentary for From Dusk Till dawn where Quentin and Robert Rodriguez were talking about De Palma having reoccurring players and, like, the value of it. And it had been a thing that I hadn't really articulated, which is I really would enjoy, you know, like, when, like, the same guy will be, like, in eight John Carpenter movies.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And there's something. I think there's a value of someone being very talented and also developing a shorthand with each other and trust that. I think it's additive, both as a viewer and as a filmmaker. Everybody Benefits because you can just say, hey, I know your strengths. You understand me. I wrote this thing for you. It's like, I've said this before, but the only time I ever kind of got in trouble because I'm not a real, actually difficult person, even though I sort of do tend to do exactly what I want to do is the only thing where I drew a line in the sand was I said I wouldn't consider anyone else for the root part in my movie because I'm like, I wrote it for him. And I just don't think anyone could be better. And everything is subjective.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But I, but I can't think of another actor that would be better for that part. It just. There's a reason I wrote it for him.

[Podcast Narrator (Glass Cannon podcast promo)]

Right.

[Paul Scheer]

And it's also gonna come down to you anyway, like, what you wanna work with. I always feel like I love working on sets where people know me because I think it takes away that other part of the anxiety. Like, you actually will perform better, right? Because like, okay, we know each other and you know what we're doing and we're, you know, like, there are those. I get nervous when you get an offer only or whatever. People just give you a partner. I do want them to meet me though. And I want to like, just talk, make sure. Because it is, it's a crazy thing. Like you want to make sure that you're not, you're not doing the wrong thing or that they actually like you. It's, it's. I think you get a better performance with a shorthand. And that's why I keep on saying, let's go back to the studio system. Put people under contracts. You can only work in certain things, get loaned out. But there is a, there's a fun nature to that. Just being like, oh, yeah, we'll just pull our crew together. And Judd Apatow did that for a while in those first films. Like, and then he would kind of spin off each person into their own movie, which is, I think, like, that era was amazing for that.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's funny, I don't remember what episode it is, but there's a, there's a blank check where our friend Griffin went on a rant about how he thought the studio system was better and everyone got mad at because, because it's like, yes, on some level, yeah, it was bad for people. But creatively and just as a viewer, it's very satisfying to see these different players ping pong around in each of these different Warner Brothers movies from that time period. And seeing there's Also, one of my favorite things ever is the only reason Bruce Willis is in Sixth Sense is because Disney was making a movie. And I think a week into the shoot, Bruce Willis fired the director. And then they brought in a new director and that director got fired. So they just shut it down. And there was so much money had been spent that the deal became, all right, we will eat this, but you have to agree to, like, a three picture deal for any movie under the Disney umbrella. And that meant within a certain amount of time, he had to say yes to enough movies to satisfy that contract. And Sixth Sense was a script they bought. And then he was sort of forced onto it. He wasn't on M. Night's list of anyone he wanted for it. And then he's incredible in the movie. And it's interesting sometimes how these weird things have. Just by virtue of, okay, Bruce Willis is in Armageddon and Sixth Sense because he got tied into this deal where he had to do these movies in a certain time frame. And in both cases, I benefit.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, and. But, you know, it's not like every actor, I wish there was some sort of lawsuit where they got stuck and then had to make X amount of movies for a distributor. But it can lead to unexpected choices that benefit.

[Paul Scheer]

Right, because you're getting them at a discount. I know one person, which I probably can't say their name, but they're very big. They're a very big, big actor who was caught into a contract situation and was able to show up in a movie that I did. And you would never have been able to put him in this movie because his price would have been way too prohibitive. But he needed to hit three of these movies, whatever the deal was that they had made. He was delinquent on these movies. And so in the middle of the shoot, they're like, we can bring them in. And it's a great. It's a. It's a great cameo. And you're like, wait, how did that happen? And I think as a viewer and as a person, I'm always watching, like, they must have been friends. They just wanted to go and hang out. And, you know, and it's. And I think sometimes that is the case, but other times someone is forcibly making you fulfill the other end of a bargain, especially if the movie is beneath them.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

While we're on the subject of the, you know, quote unquote cameos. So when I watched this a couple of weeks ago, for some reason, I was really, like, thinking about Carol Kane.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And then coincidentally, I have like the. A subscription thing with vinegar syndrome. Or like every month they'll send me four or five movies and I just don't know what I'm going to do.

[Paul Scheer]

That's awesome. I didn't know that.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And it can lead you to watch things that you didn't know exist, which is. I watch this movie called Office Killer, okay. Which is a. So it stars Carol Kane and it's sort of a slasher film where she's like, in an office and she's basically just starts killing everyone off because they're forcing remote work. And it came out in 97.

[Podcast Narrator (Patrick Picklebottom promo)]

Wow.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And she's also working at a magazine. So there's all these levels. Things about it that are, like, really prescient. And then this is the kind of stupid person I am about culture, is I started watching the behind the scenes and I didn't know who Cindy Sherman was, right? Who's the director, who's this brilliant artist, and it's the only movie she ever made. And then I end up, like, buying some books of, like, her photographs and stuff. And this is a tangent just to say part of the joy of movies like this is kind of the rabbit holes. You can go down on these things where it's sort of like you could just sort of watch this movie and. And follow one of these bit players who shows up and be like, let's just say you hadn't seen a Mel Brooks movie. And you're like, well, I want to see who that guy is. And then you just can just go down this list of things that blow your mind and expand your view of movies. And I do think that's one of the values of these things is like, let's say you are a kid and you see this and then now you're like, well, who was that actress who did this part? And then you just, you know, it can lead to. You end up watching Office Killer. So there's a value in that. And the other thing I wanted to mention is I agree with everything you said about, like, bringing people in and having a good time. But it is ironic that you also mentioned Cannonball Run because it's that famous quote. It was either from Soderbergh or it was Damon quoting Soderbergh or Soderbergh quoting Damon, which was that, you know, the amount of fun you have on a set doesn't necessarily mean anything. And if the amount of fun you had on set correlated to quality, then Cannonball Run 2 would be the best movie ever made. That's like. Because that is the one example. It's like, if we had as much fun as they seem to be having, well, it would be the best, right?

[Paul Scheer]

This is the thing. And I. This is my own. And I may be like a sour sport on set sometimes. Like, I don't really break often and my wife has forced me to break because a lot of the times when they release some sort of like, oh, these are the funny moments. Like I'm just sitting there stone faced and she's like, you gotta, you gotta laugh because it looks like you're miserable. And I'm like, I'm not miserable. I'm in it. And I've been on a handful of different things where one person is crushing. And once the crew is like this, oh man, this movie's gonna be great. This person crushes. This person crushes. I will say with 90% certainty, it never translates. That character is never as funny as it was on set in that day. Or they're cut down in such a way. I feel like it's such a. It's a knock. Because I think what it is is. It's just. It's goosing the set. It's like, oh, the set feels good. We're laughing, we're having a good time. But it often is not to the defi. It's to the deficit of the film. Like, there is it. I. Whenever anything is working like that, I'm like, oh, this is not going to edit together well, I know it's not. It's not. Because it's like a joke, a kind of joke upon a joke. And it gets out of there pretty quickly.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It is. The funny thing is I love movies more than anything in the world. There's nothing I love more than making movies. But I also, you know, the more you do it, the more you learn not to trust how good something's feeling. As purely meaning it works. And it's, it's sort of. It can be kind of odd to be a buzzkill. Yeah. When people around you are like, this is crushing. And you're like, I know it seems like it is, but we have to make sure it is. Like, because you can just. That can just be enough to move on. It's like there is. There's a weird thing about sometimes it's just like, because if the dailies were really fun to watch just on our own, it's like, why don't we just release the date?

[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Like there is a function of like, whether something seems like it's working and whether it doesn't. But to bring it back to Muppet Movie. It's like part of the reason I really love this movie is it's, it is somehow realistic about how difficult shit is. And also very, you know, rose colored glasses about any of the.

[Paul Scheer]

But at the same time we're talking about like, is it fun to make a movie? And is the movie then fun? And this, by all intents and purposes, was very difficult to shoot. And not as much fun as later Muppet films became. Because I think they figured out the process. Now I will say that I think part of this is twofold. Bringing in an outsider. But also like, how do you do these sequences? Like, you know, making, you know, making the Studebaker drive. You have a little person in the trunk who is controlling the car while you have, you know, Fozzie at the wheel. Like, and trying to figure out that those kinds of shots. And I could see that those are the things that can just weigh down. But this movie feels so light. I wanted to talk about this one thing cause this kind of blew my mind. Jim Henson spent three days in a specially constructed submersible. It was made from like two aluminum jet engine containers. It was called like the Bathysphere. And it was like a. Had rubber sleeved arms for Kermit so he could manipulate him. And a video monitor so he could see his performance in there. And a mic. And then there are rescuers nearby. This is all for the opening scene, the rainbow connection scene. And it was. Rescuers are on either side in case the air supply failed. And the only way they could get liquids in was by pouring iced tea down one of the rubber sleeves during breaks. So you could like sip out of that. Like. Like that. Like knowing that that's your first three days on. Or I don't know if they shot it, you know, all you know, in the right order. But. But just like that seems like how do you make anything, you know, at that point, like you're in a. You're in a. Like a coffin for, you know, for effectively like, you know, 72 hours.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, I think part of your job as a director is to make it seem as if everything was effortless and easy, right? Even when it's not. It's like when there's scenes that have two Vince Vaughn's. In my movie, some of those were so difficult to figure out that on set and in prep, I was like getting like stress migraines from it. But because I'm also simultaneously wanting the scene to just be fun and easy. I don't want you to be watching it saying, wait, how did they do that?

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I don't want you to do that.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's the thing that I.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

The bike. The bicycle scene is the only scene in this movie that, to me, feels like they're like, okay, come on, look at what we're doing. Otherwise, it's like, you just want to think that's a frog. You don't want to think that someone's drowning underwater trying to operate the puppet.

[Paul Scheer]

No. And you shouldn't. And I think that, like, that's. You know, it's all that stuff that you don't get to see. You talked about Lost a little while ago, and I wanted to bring it to this theory. I was going down a rabbit hole about the Muppet Movie. And I'm not saying that this is a prevalent theory, but it is a theory that I saw a lot of people jump on, which is that the ending scene or the bookends of this movie is the afterlife. The Muppets are dead. And they're watching this, and this is like. So basically, this movie that they watch is like their life, and maybe a more optimistic version of their life. Like, this is a chance for them to all be together. And, you know, and so people say, well, yeah, it's true. Because this whole movie, there's all these brushes with death. You know, maybe they. They did. They did die. And this is like their. And I just was thinking, like, there. But there's a similarity to the idea of. And I think at this point, it's fine to talk about the ending of loss. You know, the ending of loss. They're all together, you know, in this church, and they are. And they've all met up there, and they're in their afterlife. And this is like a very formative group. And I just was thinking about that. I was like, wow, did Lost and the Muppet Movie have, like, a similar. Like, an ending?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's very funny to me that, you know, as a really big fan of Lost and the ending and the characters and all of Daemon's stuff, is that. My really dumb, simple thought is that most of his stuff feels inspired by Peter Weir movies. But it would be hilarious if the entire time it was like, yeah, we got the idea for the last season from the Muppaboo. Because I was, like, imagining what if that theater was really everyone in the afterlife and they're kind of watching a clip show. I've had weirder ideas that something started kind of as a joke where I'm like, you know that movie? What if blank. And then I suddenly have a whole idea from it. Yeah, it would be hilarious if that's. At some point. Dame was like, well, you know, the last season, that was just the Muppet.

[Paul Scheer]

We just got that idea. Well, because, you know, what I do love about it is, and I do love the ending of Lost is this idea that, you know, at the end of your life, you're with people that like. This idea of, like, you're waiting for all the people that meant a lot to you. And obviously, on this island, this is a very pivotal moment that all these characters came together and then they're able to, like, go into the afterlife together. But they've been waiting for each other there. I love this idea that these are like. Yeah, this is. This was the most important group of people to each other. Like, this meeting each other and making this movie. It's a very beautiful idea. Like, they get to watch themselves live the Hollywood dream. Like, you know, they're there watching this movie again. It's more just for fun, but I just. I think it is a beautiful idea that that's the way the movie is kind of bookended. Like, this is. They're getting.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

So is.

[Ben David Grabinski]

So.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Is Sawyer, Statler and Waldorf or they just get the. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Do they cut to the. Like, Sawyers is sleeping in one of the. At the end, but that's it.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah, he's basically. He has the same function as them on the show with all of his glib comments and stuff.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I mean, look, Damon, come out and let us know if that is true. I'm gonna ask him about that next time I see him speaking. I really noticed. It was cool. It was really cool you did that.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Something I wanted to talk about is. So there's a scene in the movie when the Electric Mayhem show up after being gone for a while.

[Paul Scheer]

All right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah.

[Ben David Grabinski]

Hey, listen, it's wonderful to see you guys, but how did you ever find us? Oh, easy. We just read the screenplay you left us. Exterior, desert, night. We knew right where you were.

[Paul Scheer]

Like, can you get behind it?

[Ben David Grabinski]

Hey, listen, when you dudes have to be at that audition, 2:00 clock tomorrow afternoon. Well, climb aboard the bus. We'll have breakfast at Hollywood and Vine.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

That scene. So there's two things about this movie for me. One, it's the movie that made me realize I wanted to make movies at a very young age. It just got burned in there. But functionally, also, I got to use this movie to get out of a, like, sort of a political creative jam that I had On Scott Pilgrim, which is when we were at the outline stage. Brian and I had outlined the whole season and everyone was really happy with it. But they had one note, which is they didn't. They thought there was too much, like, inside Baseball meta stuff about the movie industry. Because I have a Lucas Lee episode. And then after that, there's like, another thing about a movie within the show of Scott Pilgrim. And it was a very, like, line in the sand. People are like, it's too inside. It's too matter that we're just going to alienate anyone unless they're, like, huge movie fans. And my rebuttal, I wrote an email to everyone and I said, there's nothing in this show that is more meta than the Muppet Movie. And I don't think anyone can argue that the Muppet Movie is not an accessible piece of entertainment. Yes. And when I said that, it never came up again. And it was just one of those things where it's like, it's. It's not just an argument. It is, to me, it is a truth, which is that no kid watched this at, like, 8 years old. And they're like, this is too inside Baseball. This guy's reading a script and that's how he figures out where they're at. Like that. No one. Nobody. This is such a huge mainstream. Like, this is not a thing where, like, a kid crosses their arms and they're like, I'm bored. Who cares? What's a screenplay like?

[Paul Scheer]

It. It didn't bother anybody.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

No, it's.

[Paul Scheer]

It's kind of funny because this movie does a great job at, like, revering old movies, but also being a movie that is full of that same heart. Like, I mean, the final sequence that we talked about with Doc Hopper, that's shot on the same sets as, like, High Noon, right? Like, there's a lot of homage to, you know, classic movies and actors, but that idea of the script, this is another thing that I think is so great. It's like you can make a movie that has these meta jokes, and as kids, we're watching that, and the movie doesn't stop to over explain it. It's funny, but it doesn't break the reality either. I mean, they read the whole script to get caught up in the beginning, and then that is established that that's how they understand the movie, the Electric Mayhem. And then at the end, it uses. You know, they get it to. They use it to find them. And it doesn't wreck the reality because it's like, okay, this is a movie, but Then they are. They are not actors or they didn't get the script. Like, I also don't like. If you try to unpack it, it kind of will be tricky, but you watch it and it just.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And that, to me is one of my favorite kind of jokes, is the kind of joke where, like, if you really start to think about it, it's going to give you a headache. Uh, and. But you don't. Because it's funny, it's just funny.

[Paul Scheer]

And because it works 100%, it just. It works. Um. What I thought was interesting, and I think what I was looking at this time too, we're talking about, like, what's happening within the camera and why you're not thinking about stuff, is that final sequence when you meet up with Beaker and Professor Hunterdew and. And Animal takes the pill that makes him grow when he appears out of that thing. I always thought that that was like CGI, but they built a 60 foot tall animal. And I was just watching that and I was like, this is, to me, like, I love. Like, there is something, I don't know, just so wonderful about that last scene too, because again, you're talking about this moment where Kermit tries to flip this guy. He's like, no, we're gonna kill him. There's no way out, right? These are people that are. You have a frog assassin who I'm gonna believe is Michael Shannon. That guy looks like Michael Shannon. I know it's not obviously, but there's no way out for them. And then they just do this other super heightened thing, which is like, oh, now he will be 60ft tall. And that's enough to scare everybody away. And end of movie. I love that this movie, it's dumb enough and big enough in moments that you're just along for the ride. And maybe that's what we're talking about. The movie has a sense of fun and playfulness. It's like, we understand that we're watching movies. We can play with the concept of a movie, but we can still give you all those feelings that you want a movie to have at the same time, when they go see Orson Welles, even though he goes, okay, great, we'll give him a big contract. There's no debate. He's not like, get out of my office. It still packs that punch. I think that that's something that people have a hard time doing now, or a lot of meta stuff starts to be. I don't know if I had this conversation with you, but I feel like meta stands in for we're not trying. It's like, oh, you can't attack us because we actually didn't. We actually don't care. Like, we know it's lame, so we're not actually doing it. Like, so, you know, it's like this meta. I think takes. Takes the place of, like, earnestness. And I think this movie shows.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

My theory is that if you're gonna make choices like these, you really, really have to be hard on your own work and make sure that it's not the wrong kind of flippin. Because it. They're so close. You know, there's some things that you could be like, oh, fuck you. You couldn't come up with an idea, right? But the really talented, brilliant people are figure out when it's funny that you're kind of being flippant and when it feels like you're being lazy and it's really. You either know or you don't. And it's, it's very interesting to me because I've seen movies that I won't mention where they made choices similar to these. And it's like, aggravating, right? And then you're just like, well, and also. But then again, I, I'm. Who am I to talk where I, I decided to make a whole movie where I explained nothing at the end and I am a kind of a jackass about it.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I don't believe. But, no, but nobody.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But I'm. But I, I'm. I'm being clear. But what I'm saying, saying is like, it's interesting because, like, you know, I think the, the Muppets is probably the most successful format for this type of humor because it's interesting. There's. There's examples that, like, I think are incredible, but to other people, it's like cilantro, like, tasting like soap. It's like the Julia Roberts thing at the end of Oceans 12.

[Paul Scheer]

I love it.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I think is one of my. Every time I watch it, it makes me laugh so hard and I admire so much that they did it. And then, you know, I can't go a week without just some random stranger being like, by the way, that's like the lamest shit I've ever seen.

[Paul Scheer]

I think it's so funny because I think it's earned. Like, I think there's something really fun. Like that movie is. You are the one who turned me on to Ocean's twelve because I had watched it and I think I was of, of the mindset. I don't think this is as good as the first One, and now I am of the mindset that I kind of think it is. It is to me, like, they're, to your point about Cannonball Run 2, that's a movie where they're like, how do we make it more interesting? What are we gonna, we'll do like five heists and we'll, we'll turn it up. And they're playful. And the first movie's playful. But I love, I, I, I gave it a rewatch after your full throated, like, recommendation of it. And I think it is, it really is. It's a battle now because I love that one so much because it does seem like they're at the height of their power and they can kind of do anything. But it is well thought out. It's not a cheat. It's not a cheat. And it's not. Especially from Soderbergh.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I think the genius of this movie is that I don't think anyone's ever had an argument about any of the jokes in this. Right? I don't think there's ever been, like, two film bros being like, no, I just think it's, like, too easy that Orson Welles seemed like, don't you think it should? No one has ever, in the history of the world. I don't believe any two human beings have ever, in person or via text or on the phone or on a message board, argued about any of the jokes in this movie.

[Paul Scheer]

The only person that really had something to say that has come back to haunt him is, is Leonard Maltin, who called, who called the score the Paul Williams score, pedestrian.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Leonard.

[Paul Scheer]

I was like, and I love Leonard. And I was like, but, you know, in a moment, you say these things, it gets out there. But like, you're right. Like, this is a movie that is universally loved. It's 90%, you know, on rotten tomatoes, Roger Ebert gave it three and a half out of four stars. Um, you know, this is a movie, but also I, I do want to just, like, contextualize it as well, because it's, it's 1979 and America is out of the Vietnam War, right? It's like, and this is a time where I think people are very disheartened, like, what is America? What is this thing we, you know, it's like this, the country is, you know, very much beside itself. And, and then you put these Muppets in there, and they're representing that kind of counterculture, that awareness of, you know, what is maybe a little bit sappy. But then they use all of that to kind of bring you on board and say, no, no, no, no, we can't give up hope. We gotta go here. Like, let's, let's be optimistic still. Let's get, let's get going. And I feel like that's really hard to do because this is a moment where this in many respects could have just been pushed away. Like, fuck this, I don't want to see this. You know. And it kind of galvanizes people because it is one of these big block. It is in this time of blockbusters, but it is like it becomes this big thing that I think is really. That's what I'm just thinking about the time that this is released. Fascinated by.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's also just weirdly, it is a timeless movie. The only thing that really lets you know when it came out specifically is just it had to be at a time when all those actors were at, you know, the height of their powers.

[Ben David Grabinski]

The.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

The guest stars.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

That's the only thing really that gives it. You're just sort of along with it in the same way that something like Pee Wee's Big Adventure feels like. You only know when it came out by like the age of the actors. There is something where it's like, there's like a 10 year span or maybe in a 15 year span to me where this movie could have come out. And I just sort of forget like, right, it matters culturally and it's interesting to think about. But I also think it's interesting to think about the fact that it feels untethered to, you know, trends of the era or what. It doesn't feel like it's. Oh, they're just chasing, you know what the kind of thing that was a hit at that time.

[Paul Scheer]

And I also think to your point, they're also not chasing those cameos. We talked about the cameos, but it's like these are icons, like across the board. Like there's not like, oh yeah, that guy was on chips. You know, it's like it's. And, and, and at that moment, you know, Eric Estrada might have been huge. You know, Scott Baio might have been huge. But it's like these are, they've sustained on some level. Every single one of them is not just a, for lack of a better term, like a one hit wonder. And that's impressive too, right? Every. And so I, I think that that's again, maybe, maybe some of these things were lame and some of them were cool to have Richard Pryor cool and Steve Martin cool. But you know, but maybe, you know, Milton Berle at this Point. Not as cool. Right. But, you know. But who knows? I don't know. I just think it's like. But being able to look at a movie like that and cast it in that particular. Right. Way, too, it kind of has a universality to it because, you know, I'd,

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

like, want to talk about Charles Durning.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And I mean, Charles Durning is always the greatest, but it's funny to me. Like, Austin Pendleton, I think, is the. His, like, sort of sidekick.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

If I remember correctly.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, exactly.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And it's. He's one of those guys who, like, whenever I'd see a movie, like, I. I saw maybe like eight years ago, ish. For the first time, I saw what's Up, Doc? Which I now think is maybe the funniest movie.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, my gosh. Same.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But there's, like, when you would watch this movie and the guy shows up and you're just like, oh, that's Max. Like, Right. Because there's these character actors who are so connected in your brain to the first time you saw them. And it's got to be interesting from an actor's perspective. I always want to ask people, and I do ask people who, like, I will work with and stuff. Just saying, what is the thing that gets brought up the most to you? Like, when you're on the street? And it's in the same way these, like, the roles that you have in specific movies make that who you are to someone for life, 100%. Like that guy and that thing. And it's, you know, you got just. You got to hope it's something that you are proud of, because it would be really. There's probably people who are really well known for the weirdest thing. But I've been. I truly, you know that adage where they say that every bad movie is someone's favorite movie? I thought that wasn't true until I was at this guy's house and he had Pluto Nash on his shelf. And I go, wow. Oh, Pluto Nash. He goes, yeah, it's my favorite movie. And I was like, okay, you have to explain this to me.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

He's like, oh, yeah. When I was five, it was like the only DVD my parents had, and I was watching Pluto Nash all the time. And there is the, you know, the Muppet movie. Seeing as a kid, perfect movie, I think.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But there is probably some version of Muppet Movie that is dog shit. That is someone's favorite movie ever. And because of that, an actor in it is, you know, forever known for it. So it goes Both directions. It's like, you know, well earned, placed in the zeitgeist versus, you know, you know, the Garbage Pail Kids movie is probably someone's favorite movie. I, I've seen it too many times and I kind of admire it. But you know, I actually do have a friend who earnestly really loves it. And I, you know, it's like you watch it at the right time.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, here's the thing. I'll say that I think kind of encapsulates this too. When I got Black Monday, I told my brother in law, I was like, oh yeah, it's this show with Don Cheadle. And he's like, oh my God, Kung Fu Kenny. And that's the character that Don Cheadle plays in Rush Hour, right? Or like, I think that's his name or Kung Fu. Yeah. And I was like, oh, yeah. But he's been in a lot of stuff. He's like, oh, I don't know. I just, I love Rush. I know him from Rush Hour. And to think of the work of Don Cheadle and this is like in the, you know, in the 2000s, you know, like, like, oh, that's, that's the thing. And I watched many times on set, people coming up to Don talking to him about Kung Fu Kenny. And it is like, it's like. And that's the thing. It's like you have to accept it. All right? You hopefully you did a good job. You had like, you liked it out there. But you can't equate for like what hits people at the right time when they see it and what like lingers. Because like, I remember one person said to me one time, it's like an airport. And they're like, oh my God, I love Best Week ever. That was the best show. Have you ever done anything after that? And I was like, oh yeah, a couple of. That was like the first thing I ever did my entire career. But it's like, it doesn't make a difference. You don't know how people's lives are or whatever, if they even see movies. It's like you are going to be Amber editing in some people's memory as the weirdest fucking thing.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's funny because that. What I just realized when you're saying it is that Don Cheadle bit in Rush Hour 2. I think it's yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Rush Hour 2.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yes, is very close functionally and in performance to these things in this movie when these actors show up. Don Cheadle feels very much to me when I saw it like him being like, hello, it's America's favorite Don Cheadle. It's almost like he's spiking the lens and just being like, it is me, Don Cheadle. I will now be in the movie for two minutes. It has very. So to me because, like, at that time, I still really like the first two rush hours.

[Paul Scheer]

I have nothing bad to say about it.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But I think the thing though is. But to me at that time, I thought his performance and out of Sight, and I still do. Me too, is one of the greatest performances ever. There's lines that he says in that movie that are so funny. There's a line about falling on a shiver his dick. That is one of the funniest line deliveries, I think, like, ever. And to me, it took a while for me to see Don Cheadle another movie and not just be like, that's my guy. Like, out of sight. And it's so funny because he's. For most people, he's much more well known for other things. But to me, that is like so high that it's like, how do you even do work after that? It's like, you know, like, if you're to be that good, it's like you could just retire after being out of sight. And that's better than most careers. Just that one role.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, Steve Zahn is amazing in out of Sight as well. And I love, like out of Sight was a movie that felt for me was like the movie like, have you not seen this movie? This is like one of my favorite movies. It's like it. Everything about it is performances across the board. But I feel like, yeah, like, it also is like, what are these first movies that you see that like affect you, that get you. That trigger something in you. A performance triggers something in you. And that's why I think it's so interesting when people want to hide away from it. You gotta just be like, that's what you do. You have made this thing and it connected. You can't judge it on the level that it connected. You know, it's like you can't tell people, I've done better work. They don't care if you've done better work or you are more versatile than what they just. They're telling you that they like you and you, you know, like, it's not like defend why they're wrong. It's like I learned very early on, like when people came to see shows, I'm always like, ah. I would say, oh, I don't know. We Were. We were a little bit off tonight. Just be like, thank you. I'm glad that you were here. And if they like you, don't help by getting out in front of it, by saying, actually, this wasn't as good as it normally is. We have better shows. You know, it's like, you remember the

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

time when you and I went to a Clippers game? It was at Staples. This was years ago.

[Paul Scheer]

The Suns.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Someone ran across the street. I thought it was to talk to you. And they went, oh, man, I love your work. And then they point at me and said, seth Rogen.

[Ben David Grabinski]

I do.

[Paul Scheer]

I remember that very clearly.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

There's something very funny to me that I. That's happened to me, like, a hundred times where it's really funny having people come to tell you they love your work and it's not your work. But then that eventually I was at a Critics Choice Awards, and I was standing next to Seth, and someone ran up to me and said, oh, man, Seth, I love your work, and went to shake my hand, and I was standing next to Seth Rogen, and they said it to me.

[Paul Scheer]

That's amazing.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

So this anecdote is sort of relevant, but not. But it is hilarious, though, to get people that version of someone being like, oh, I gotta tell you, Superbad meant so much to me. I'm like, cool. But I. I don't have anything to do with it. I was on. I was. I was on the phone with someone when I was in New York recently, and that someone on the street came up to me. Good. Oh, my God. Are you Seth Rogen? And the person I was on the phone, we started laughing so hard. I'm like, I'm sorry.

[Ben David Grabinski]

I'm not.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And as I walk away, the guy starts shouting to his friends, I just met Seth Rogen.

[Podcast Narrator (Patrick Picklebottom promo)]

I just met.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

So, you know, I love it.

[Paul Scheer]

I love it all. I mean, I've. Look, I've taken compliment. Rob Cordray and I made a deal. We don't look really anything alike, but people confuse Rob and I a lot, and I will take his compliments, and he will take my compliments, and we. And I just go, I love you on the Daily Show. Thanks so much, man. Now I will say, I think that Michael Caine gets so much, so many accolades, especially online. Like, he gave this performance of Scrooge and the Muppets Christmas Carol. Like, he acted with these Muppets so well. Charles Durning, to me, is doing the same thing. Like, he is phenomenal in this. Like, he plays a heavy. He is playing this full Character, like, there is not. He. I mean, it's a heightened character. He's not playing these, like, sad moments, but, man, oh, man, I feel like he set the bar for this level of, like, acting. He is the nemesis, and, you know, he's the villain he's playing against Kermit. And I think he does it so, so well.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I think it's just as good as, like, his performance in Tootsie, where there's just something about. I don't know, man, he is. He just brings so much to a movie. And what's the one where he has his big dance number? Is that the best little whorehouse in Texas?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah. Where the guy could just do anything. And he's. And it's funny, too, because I usually associate him with being, like, so warm. And that is one of the. A really brilliant move to cast someone really likable as someone despicable because it balances it out. Because, like, you. It's. If you cast this guy wrong, it's a pretty depressing thing to just have this omnipresent guy who's like, yeah, I want you to sell eating your own kind. I mean, it's, you know, like, there's a darkness baked in to that character that you have to offset by casting Charles Durham.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, because he. Yeah, because he plays the right type of menace and think about song and dance.

[Ben David Grabinski]

Hi, I'm Doc Hopper inviting you to hop on down and get some Hopper's French fried frog legs. Right here at the sign of the bright green legs. Good grief. Come on, come on. Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. Frog, Frog legs Frog legs are fine Hoppers is the place you should dine there's cheese legs, bacon legs, chili legs, too French fried, fried legs, barbecue if you want just a snack Then here is the one A frog leg burger on a bright green bun

[Paul Scheer]

when he plays his commercial where he can't really sing and dance and he's kind of sleeping, talking, like, through the song, he's like, I really can't. I don't have talent in that. Like, it's such a. Like, the character is very confident, but also, like, has these, like, little cracks. Like, I think there's a line in here where he, like, insists that he does have friends. He's like, I have friends.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Like, it's like, there is something so sad about that in a way that I think is so kind of beautiful and hilarious is just the. What a sad thing for a character to realize they have no friends. It's a fate worse than death. Like, to have him. Like, he thinks these people like him. And I realize nobody does.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, it's such a. Like, it's such a little moment. And I feel like. And what I do like about him is he is irredeemed. Going back to your first point, some people can't be changed. Some people cannot be, you know, reasoned with. And what a cool thing again, for a family movie to be like, yeah, no, this. These optimistic people can't turn this asshole. Like he. Like he. And they're offering him friends. They're offering him the thing that he is missing, like companionship, you know, and. Nope, doesn't work.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, I think, though, on the previous note of. To me, the best performance across from a Muppet is Charles Groen.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Really convincingly falling in love with Miss Piggy.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

And the.

[Paul Scheer]

The best.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Just you've. You never. I've never, ever, at any age in my life didn't think that that guy was just like, he felt. He feels so bad about betraying her.

[Paul Scheer]

But it's fine.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

But it's an interesting. I think the Mount Everest of acting across from a thing that's not there. To me, the height of all of it is Bob Hoskins and New Frame Rogers.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

That is the best performance that's ever been done across a thing that doesn't exist. And he did that at a time. Now so many actors are acting across from nothing and they're getting rotoed into another shot and they're looking at a tennis ball. But it's like he invented the game and it's still. I don't think it's been topped. I think that he somehow has a perfect buddy comedy chemistry with a thing that isn't there. But that is the real magic of these movies as well. It's like the. All these people were talking about. It's like, that's, to me, almost the sign of a really talented actor is that you can. It's like, I think this is going to sound like. And it is, and it is stupid. But, you know, Grodin and Miss Piggy to me is like Grodin and De Niro and Midnight Run's like, third favorite movie of all time to be able to functionally. But that's also because in this case, you are acting across Frank Oz.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Who's a genius, you know, but you are still selling that you're in love with a pig.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I also think that this is why people are talking so positively about Ryan Gosling in Project Hail Mary is because he's Acting against Rocky, who is a puppet, you know, on set. And also the puppeteer is doing the voice with him and he's acting with him. But you, you know, you buy this. I mean, it's a little different because that. We can at least buy that that's a rock formation. But just to be acting against, you know, you're losing eye contact, you're losing all these things, but you're putting so much emotion in. I think it's a certain type of. You're right. A certain type of actor that can. Can do it. And I think it's a little bit of. You have to be so vulnerable, and you have to over. You have to, like, almost not pantomime, but just push it just a little bit because it is a little bit bigger and. And it kind of is this perfect sweet spot that. I mean, they both have. I mean, they both have. I mean, even when Austin Pendleton gets on the bus and kind of has his moment of like, look, guys, he's after you like this very. He's played such a sweet, great character in this. And, you know, you're just doing it to a bunch of men on the floor, you know, men and women on the floor. You know, 150 men and women on the floor. And you have to, like, keep a straight face and be right there and be in the moment. I think that those are. Those are the moments that are. It's. Again, I'm not thinking about it when I'm watching it, but talking to you about it. I'm like, wow, how do you do all this?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

The Gosling thing is a level of movie star that I didn't know even existed because no one gets bored watching him for two and a half hours when he is 80% of it the only thing there. And it's. And not like he is so good and emotional and charismatic and layered. And to be able to carry that, that is the most. Kind of like,

[Podcast Narrator (Glass Cannon podcast promo)]

it's just.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

It's like that. It's not just that it's difficult. You just have to have, like, a magical level of charisma and star power in order to make that work. I mean, that's the genius, though, of Lord Miller movies, to me, is that almost every one of their movies could have been the worst movie ever.

[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, it's like the. Every idea, it's. Are you sure that's gonna work?

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, they're taking.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Because it's them, you know, it will.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, it's like they're taking the Armageddon mission. They're taking the Armageddon mission, which is like, this is an impossible task that is doomed to fail, but there is a 1% chance that you can make. You know, I'm talking about the actual mission in Armageddon, not the movie Armageddon. You know, there's a chance you can get this right. And. And they do it. And I think where they do it is actually. It's funny to have this comparison in a very similar way. It's earnest without being cheesy. It can. It can play in comedy. It can play in so many different realms. And I think that that's sometimes what we. What sometimes our bigger movies miss, which is like having it all. Like having your kid. You know, it's like. And I feel like I keep on saying, oh, Lord. Miller movies are like Spielberg movies. And I think to a certain extent it's true, but I also feel like they do something even different than Spielberg. But it's about kind of combining a bunch of different genres and making you just love being in that theater and feeling like you have some sort of a happy catharsis in a way. You know, you leave happy and sad.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

There's a thing I've been saying recently, and I'm not even implying it's insightful, but it's a thing that I've been thinking about a lot, which is that, you know, some movies don't settle for just being one thing. Some movies are. They are everything at once. It's like, if you can make a movie that makes me laugh and makes me cry and is exciting and is surprising and is silly, but then also earnest. Like, the ability to not just combine genres, but combine tones and shift between these things and be satisfying on that level. It's like, you know, something that can be really funny and also make you cry is such a magic trick. And that's the thing about the Muppet movie as well, is like, it's primarily sort of a joke machine. But. But the things that I love the most about it are actually really secondary to the laughs. Like, it is very, very funny. But I also think that it's like a really beautiful story about a bunch of misfits going together to try to create art. I think it just has all these different levels, and then it also just has a dog playing the piano, which is funny.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, it's like it's all these things, like, you know, to be able to function in that way. You know, sometimes people, movies, they try to do that, like, in a way that feels sort of Crass or, you know, they're like, well, we want you to care, but we also want to be funny. We also want to do this, but that. It doesn't feel calculated.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

You know, it just feels like this is the voice of Jim Henson and this is the type of story he wanted to tell.

[Paul Scheer]

I always say that some of my biggest laughs are in dramas. Right. Like, if I watch. If I've watched a. You know, like, you can get a great laugh in a drama because you're so invested in. Like, that's what we do. We laugh in difficult moments. There are laughs. And it's like. And. And balancing that out is like, I think part of what they do across the movie, it doesn't have to be one thing. And I think people have a hard time accepting that. Like, well, why does it have to be funny? It's like, it can be. Its life is a bunch of different emotions. It doesn't have to just be one thing.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Yeah, but, you know, the value of what you're talking about is, like, you won't see a huge laugh coming if a movie doesn't live or die on laughs. And you also won't expect to have your heart broken.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

If a movie doesn't feel like it's going to go in that direction, I think there's, like, that's. The real kind of. That, to me, is just the real magic of a great movie, is that it doesn't matter how many movies I've seen. You'll be watching something and you don't know that the movie's gonna make you cry. And it's like you're just. You don't even know that you care about the characters. Like, there's a thing that happens, like, a lot of movies from, like, the. The 40s and 30s where I always say you sort of like a. That the whole pot. Frog in a pot of boiling water. I shouldn't talk about boiling a frog when we're talking about the movie. But that thing where you don't realize until it's too late that you love these characters and you don't realize until it's too late that you're invested and you're sitting there in the finale and you're like, oh, fuck, I. I love these people. I'm worried about them. I didn't even know that. I did, like, you know, where you sort of very sleepily just get more invested, more invested, and by the end, you're like, oh, no, I hope everyone's gonna be okay. And. But you weren't Even conscious of the fact that you cared like that to me is a right.

[Paul Scheer]

Because they're not. They're not driving you to that point where it's like, we gotta make a care by page one. Like, we. You are just letting it actually happen. You are living with these people. And I think that that's. Yeah. Like, if you have that freedom to do it, it's amazing. I always say that my son looked over at me in the middle of Project Hail Mary and said, this is the funniest movie I've ever seen. I've cried four times. And it was like. And both statements were true. Like, they were like. And I think that that's. It's important. I think it's important for movies to be empathy machines. I talk about that a lot, too. It's like, we should have all the experiences. I'm so glad that we picked this movie, that you brought this one in, because I think this is like a very important, important movie and one to rewatch. Ben David, what a pleasure to have you here talking about this today.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

No, this was. It was. This was fun and it was a nice exercise and maybe just mostly being earnest for 90 minutes and just saying, I love this thing, instead of. Instead of doing bits.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, and I'll tell you this much. I will say that one of the. The best things about you is your pure love of film. I always tell people, your letterbox is something I look to. And I always enjoy, because you really do appreciate movies. And I think you can find something amazing in the Office Killer with, you know. Or what if that's the right title of the Carol King.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

I mean, the opening credits of it are genuinely brilliant in a way that I'm planning on ripping off. And so whenever I do, no one can be like, hey, he ripped that off years in advance.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm calling it just like Damon called the end of Lost with the Muppet Movie. All right, so Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice is streaming right now on Disney or Hulu, whatever you have there. Also, you can check out Happily, which, of course, I am in. And if you've not checked out Scott Pilgrim, the Animated Series, I think you will enjoy it. Ben David, what a pleasure. Thanks so much.

[Unnamed Guest (likely Ben David Grabinski continuing)]

Do you know what else is on Disney? The Muppet Movie.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, look at that.

[Ben David Grabinski]

All my life I wanted to own a thousand frog leg restaurants, and you're the key, Queenie. Yeah, well, I've got a dream, too, but it's about singing and dancing and making people happy. That's the kind of dream that gets better the more people you share it with. And, well, I found a whole bunch of friends who have the same dream and it kind of makes us like a family.

[Paul Scheer]

Thank you so much. Ben David Grabinski. Oh, my gosh, I could talk about that movie all day long. You know, one of the things I forgot to mention is he also rebooted Are youe Afraid of the Dark? Ben David in our lives in such a good way with so many classics and new films altogether. And like I mentioned, he was an on set advisor for Coyote vs. Acme, which I think and I hope will be the hit of the summer. You can follow him on Instagram at bdgrabinski and you can figure out how to spell it. People Unspooled's got shirts, bespoke shirts. They're not just regular Unspooled shirts are a little bit different. They're a little bit fun. And if you want to know even more about the Muppet Movie, well, then head on over to our substack where we will break down this movie in depth and in detail like we do on every one of our films. Our substack is completely free and we just want to give it to you because we love to keep the conversation going. And let me tell you, while I've had some fun with these amazing guests, Jorma and Ben David and Joanna and Rob Anderson, I long to have a connection with my partner, Amy Nicholson, and she will be back. I think it'll be fun for us to continue our our summer series by talking about a summer movie that started off lower on the box office list and moved its way up because people couldn't believe what they were seeing. So let's talk about Superbad in our next episode. You get it wherever you get your streaming films, or you can get it in physical media as well. We will see you then. And a big thanks to our entire team. Unscrew Spooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Schear, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxell, show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now.

[Podcast Narrator (Glass Cannon podcast promo)]

The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow to dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s and man, it is so good to be back. Join the welcome to the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8pm Eastern on YouTube.com theglasscanon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.

[Podcast Narrator (Patrick Picklebottom promo)]

From the parents behind Law and Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11 year old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grown ups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now. Wherever you get your podcasts.