Paul Scheer (2:44)

Wow.

Amy Nicholson (2:45)

Yeah, I was so confused by how much I liked about this movie that I wrote a review about it for the LA Weekly. And then after it went up, I thought, you know what? In the online version I could fit in 200 more words about why this movie is good. So I like wrote again and asked if we could expand it.

Paul Scheer (2:59)

Wow.

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Paul Scheer (3:58)

You know, I actually saw this movie in a Friends and family screening on the Fox slot and it was so interesting because I didn't know anything about it. I had my preconception based on the picture book that I read when I was a child, but but I didn't know anything. And this really was a different type of movie for Ben Stiller. We talked about Reality Bites a few months ago, but this. I think I was expecting it to be a big, bold comedy where essentially he would be falling into sketches. And this movie is not that. And as I get older and I watch it more and more, I just love it more and more. But I think that that whiplash of what I was expecting versus what it was was really hard for me to judge how much I actually liked the movie because I had to get over the fact it wasn't a movie that I wanted or I pictured in my head. Even though I liked what I saw,

Amy Nicholson (4:56)

I think that is exactly what happened in the studio too. I've read a piece from the time when it came out where Ben Stiller was explaining that he never told Fox exactly how he saw the film. He kept saying it was Forrest Gump because he was like, Forrest Gump made a lot of money, but he thought it was gonna be more like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. That was how he wanted to kind of sell it or like his version of Playtime or like a European small French comedy. But he had to sell it to them even. And in like the previews and in everything as this big comedy that he never really thought it was. Which that's risky, man. Cause it means people show up and they're like, what did I see? If they don't vibe with it?

Paul Scheer (5:30)

Well, and you know, one of the things that we might get into is in the editing process, they actually cut out a lot of the bigger comedy set pieces. The ideas of Walter Mitte falling into his fantasies because his actual journey was so exciting. Right. So even the studio probably was surprised to see, like, well, where are all these comedy beats that we wanted? Um, I think it makes for a way more interesting movie because as the film progresses, those scenes kind of start to minimize, which actually makes perfect thematic sense. You don't need to fantasize where. When you were living the fantasy.

Amy Nicholson (6:07)

Yeah, exactly. But so I.

Paul Scheer (6:09)

But I get why everyone's upset about that in the initial response to it.

Amy Nicholson (6:15)

Well, that's the thing. That's why I'm really glad we're doing this movie. Because this is what, 13 years ago? For 13 years I thought I was the only person who liked this movie because it got savaged. I think I was one of the only critics who stood up and said, I really enjoy this film. And I had people, my friends make fun of me like midi lover, you know. And now Mitty has gone on this path to redemption and I am not. Because we're doing this movie now, because it is 139 on the Letterboxd top 250 films of all time. And when you look at the five star reviews, they're like, this is my favorite movie. It's not just one of those movies people like. It's one of those movies that people like. This is my favorite movie. That is a whole other echelon.

Paul Scheer (6:55)

I mean, it truly is. And let's get to how it started. Now hold onto your skateboards because the story of how the secret life of Walter Mitte gets to the screen is very long, curvy and bumpy. But guess what? Stiller is able to ollie over that shit. Technically, it starts in 1939 when the cartoonist and writer James Thurber publishes a story in New Yorker magazine about a man running boring errands for his mean wife who hates his life so much that he disappears into daydreams. And that version, the Secret Life of Walter Mitte is fun, but it's not a comedy. It ends with Walter getting so annoyed with his wife that he imagines himself being shot by a firing squad.

Amy Nicholson (7:35)

Yeah, that's literally the last paragraph. Okay, well, I will die nobly. Great. Now, in 1947, this cynical short story becomes a very big, splashy comedy musical starring Danny Kaye. Paul will never see it. Here's how it sounds.

Paul Scheer (7:48)

Walter Mithy, the dauntless sea rover. Anatole Mithy, the Mad Hatter, Captain Mithy, ace of aces, Dr. Mithy, the brilliant surgeon. Mitty, the kid western desperado. Gaylord Mitty, the riverboat gambler. And in real life, Walter Mitty, the lovable Henpeck dreamer. Sometimes Walter can't tell where the dream ends and where the nightmare begins.

Amy Nicholson (8:17)

And now James Thurber is not happy about this. He offers the producer of the Danny Kaye movie that Samuel Goldwyn, $10,000 not to make the movie. And then he tries to get the title changed. They almost changed the title to I Wake Up Dreaming when that James Thurber goes to the premiere. And as it ends when the credits are going, he plays dumb and he goes. Anyone catch the name of this picture?

Paul Scheer (8:40)

Wow, Thurber really keeping accounts here. Fast forward to 1994, when producer Samuel Golden, Jr. Wants to do a remake of his dad's movie. And he really wants Jim Carrey to star. I mean, perfect, right? It feels like this is a Jim Carrey movie waiting to happen. Now, he's so committed to the idea of doing it with Jim Carrey that he turns down an offer at Disney because New Line, who already did two movies with Jim Carrey, has a better relationship with him. I mean, that's. That's huge.

Amy Nicholson (9:14)

Yeah, that is major commitment. And Ron Howard's gonna direct. Things are looking good. Jim Carrey's in. But then after the Truman show is a hit, also Jim Carrey movie, Ron Howard decides he'd rather make his own reality show movie instead, called Ed TV Cinema.

Paul Scheer (9:28)

Ron, no. Why would you try to make a competition to the movie that was a hit? Dumb idea.

Amy Nicholson (9:35)

Dumb idea. Samuel Goldwyn Jr. He gets annoyed. He gets the rights back to his dad's movie, and then Steven Spielberg says he'll do it. Surprise. And then Steven Spielberg drops out. Surprise.

Paul Scheer (9:45)

But, by the way, another great director for this. I feel like Spielberg could capture this really well as well.

Amy Nicholson (9:51)

Yeah, I'm always fascinated when you see the roadmap of people who were attached and left because you get a sense of the tone. They're really trying to chase.

Paul Scheer (9:59)

Well, I also feel like the interesting thing about getting attached and falling out is you get attached to an idea, and that doesn't mean that your idea is actually ever executed right. If you see potential in a script or potential in pieces, but all the pieces don't come together, you know, you just bail. I remember reading a story with Dana Carvey early on when he was talking about why doesn't he do better movies? And this is like when he was right off of SNL and he's like, they're not always offered to me. And so you just take the one that is the least bad and hope you make it the best. And I think you sometimes will see people like Jim Carrey do that. With Ace Ventura, it turns out as this giant star making vehicle makes him a giant star. But there's a lot of movies where you just can't get all those pieces in. And maybe, yeah, not everybody could be

Amy Nicholson (10:49)

Tom Cruise doing Top Gun who's like, this is trash, but let me rewrite it for free and then we'll see if we can do it.

Paul Scheer (10:55)

And Spielberg, I guess, also has that ability to say, well, yeah, if it doesn't work, then I'm gonna walk away from it. Like, that's the beauty of success. In a way.

Amy Nicholson (11:04)

It is. But. So after Stephen drops out, Jim Carrey drops out. He is attached, by the way, for 10 years. He stays attached to like 2005. Then the script goes to Ben Stiller. Ben Stiller says, no, this is dumb. Then it goes to Owen Wilson who says, yes, Mark Waters of Mean Girls, he's gonna direct. They start building sets in Louisiana. Scarlett Johansson is gonna play the Roman. And then Hurricane Katrina destroys the sets and the movie falls apart again.

Paul Scheer (11:31)

All right, well, guess what? Next up, who's going to take this home? Yes, it's Gore Verbinski. I love Gore Verbinski. And he is going to direct this film. It's going to star a funny white guy who does a lot of different characters. Yes, Mike Myers, he's out. We don't know why. Then Sacha Baron Cohen's up. It keeps on getting rewritten, becoming more funny, less funny. And then finally, in 2011, a different version of the script, this one by Steve Conrad, gets back to Ben Stiller who says, ooh, I like this one. I'm gonna do this one. And you know what? I'll direct it too. Now, Finally, Samuel Golden Jr. Is relieved. It has taken 20 years to exist. And when it does, it becomes this earnest dramedy about a guy named Walter Mitte, who has worked in the photo department of Life magazine for 16 years.

Amy Nicholson (12:23)

And.

Paul Scheer (12:24)

And it's now getting shut down and turned into a website.

Amy Nicholson (12:26)

Now Walter is in charge of tracking down the photo for the last ever print cover of Life magazine, but he cannot find it. So he goes on this adventure to Greenland, Iceland and Afghanistan, trying to find the photographer Sean, who was played by Sean Penn. Meanwhile, he gets moral support from his crush, Cheryl. This eharmony employee named Todd, that's Kristen Wiig and Patton Oswalt. He's also got this terrible new boss who's part of, like, the company that's taken over Life magazine. His name is Todd. That's Adam Scott. And also he's got a mother. He's got a sister. They're played by Shirley MacLaine and Katherine

Paul Scheer (12:56)

Hahn, by the way. I mean, just to call it out, Adam Scott, great in this film, but without Adam Scott in this role, maybe there's no Adam Scott in Severance, because that's where he and Ben Stiller kind of find this idea. Not to do Severance, But I think Stiller really loves working with Adam and sees him, you know. And by the way, Severance and Walter Mitty do share similar DNA in a way. Right?

Amy Nicholson (13:23)

I was gonna ask you that. Cause I only saw an episode or two of Severance, and I didn't love the very first episode, so I wasn't that into it. But I understand that it's a me thing. And it got better.

Paul Scheer (13:32)

Well, yeah, it's a very interesting thing, but it's about, like, this idea. I mean, it's an idea. It's not exactly like it, but I can see similarities in the idea.

Amy Nicholson (13:43)

Here's your work life, here's your other life. Right?

Paul Scheer (13:45)

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Now, by the way.

Amy Nicholson (13:48)

Oh, wait, wait, wait. While we're here, by the way, Adam Scott has a movie out called Hokum. Right. It's fantastic. Just gotta say that while we're talking about Adam Scott.

Paul Scheer (13:56)

Ooh, I can't wait.

Amy Nicholson (13:56)

So good.

Paul Scheer (13:58)

Now, this movie was not cheap. It cost $90 million. But Ben Stiller's big movies tend to make big money. So when it opened on Christmas Day, you know, we thought, this is gonna be the next big thing. Unfortunately, the studio was hoping for more than the 188 million that it made. Um, you know. Cause you gotta think, probably a lot of money to market this too. So it probably just came in, you know, as profitable. Question mark.

Amy Nicholson (14:25)

Question mark. But, you know. All right, all right. Well, it's Christmas season, so Maybe at least some award nominations. Nope, none of that either. Critics were pretty missed on mixed on it. So, yeah, when this comes out, MIDI is considered a flop. But as we said, it has had a long and curvy afterlife. Congrats to the people of Letterboxd who have made it number 139 on the letterboxd top. 250, by the way. I remember years after this having some critics over for a meeting at my house for the National Society of Critics, because we're spread out all over the country. So I used to host, like, the LA Wing, where I'd have brunch, we'd wake up, we'd vote on all that year.

Paul Scheer (15:01)

Oh, I remember you telling me about this.

Amy Nicholson (15:02)

Yeah, yeah. And I remember one year realizing two of the people on my couch also liked midi. And we just had this little Midi Powell showed. We were like, midi, you're a midi person. You're a midi person. And it's the thing we share.

Paul Scheer (15:14)

I love that. You know, watching this movie recently for the podcast, I was really struck because what I realized was this is an independent movie with a blockbuster budget. Right. You could see this movie or we've seen versions of this movie done with none of the special effects or the ability to kind of travel the world. And I think that is the beauty of it. But I also think that is the reason why people are a little, you know, dismissive of it. Right. It's a small movie in a big movies package.

Amy Nicholson (15:58)

I can say that. Actually, that's a good way of phrasing because I think people distrust that kind of movie. Like, there's something about this movie that I feel like is easy to distrust. We should just get into that. Right. Like a movie that tells you how to live your life, but it feels a little bit too shiny. Yeah.

Paul Scheer (16:15)

But, you know, I think that that's potentially the wrong reading of it. Right. It's not like, go out there and go to Afghanistan. I think it's really just saying we do so much of living in routine. Break out of your routine, find out who you are. Like, our routine kind of dictates our unhappiness. And that really is at the core of the Thurber short story. Right. The idea, like, he's doing these errands, something that's mindless, and the days are just passing by him. Right. This isn't like Pay It Forward. Remember that movie?

Amy Nicholson (16:56)

I refuse to watch that. Should I?

Paul Scheer (16:57)

Oh, I saw it. No, no. God. Um, but you know, like, where it's like, this is how we live life, we peg it forward. No, it's really just, I think, showing how routine can make us feel like we're in a rut. And, you know, and I remember when I first watched it, there was a thought that I had where I'm like, well, Ben Stiller is, like, a very attractive guy, right? He's a sexy guy. How could he be this kind of nerdy loser? And I feel like the transformation that his character makes, which is subtle and I think really well done, is kind of the most beautiful part of this movie. Right? It's not be someone different. It's just allow yourself to be kind of seasoned by, like, living life. Right? And that's really what happens to him. Like, well.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (17:58)

Right.

Amy Nicholson (17:58)

Cause we see, like, him fantasize being somebody different. Like, he fantasizes going into a mountain and a poster and coming back as this, like, version of Walter Mitty that's tall and has an accent here.

Paul Scheer (18:10)

The ice Jace. She moves like a woman. I'm Walter. Miti.

Amy Nicholson (18:17)

Cheryl Melhoff. Where have you been?

Paul Scheer (18:21)

Testing the limits of the human spirit.

Amy Nicholson (18:25)

I'd like to climb your hair, test that out.

Paul Scheer (18:28)

Perhaps I can contact you possibly through my poetry falcon.

Amy Nicholson (18:32)

Poetry falcon. I like that. That's a version of him that he can't be, right? He can't be a taller guy who's somehow magically from. I don't even know what accent that is. I couldn't tell you. It's an accent as ridiculous as mine when I try to do an accent, but he grow a little goatee and have this glow up of just, like, confidence, like, I can leave the house.

Paul Scheer (18:54)

Well, you know, maybe that's the difference between our fantasy and our actual life. Because we often fantasize, like, we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, right? We are ourselves, but we also are this completely different version of who we are.

Amy Nicholson (19:12)

Yeah. Or we're holding ourselves to an imaginary impossible standard. And considering that success, right?

Paul Scheer (19:18)

We don't need to go that far. And I think that that's, like, the real beauty of it. But it's subtle, right? If this movie did, you know, do something simpler or dumber, like, hey, everybody, take time to daydream. It might have actually caught on in a bigger way. But I think the beauty of this is its subtlety. Spring is upon us. That means it's time for shorts. It also means it is time for a linen pant. Oh, a linen pant. Fellas, get yourself a nice linen pant. Lately I've been a lot more intentional about what I wear day to day. I now have a partner to help me get dressed and that partner is Quince. All right. They give you fabrics that feel elevated, fits that are flattering and everything just works without overthinking it. Now I love quints because what they do is they use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim. And they price it 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship. Now I'll tell you, I just got some great shorts like this drawstring short from Quince that I love. But these linen pants, I are just sealing the deal. I love it because it's a way to be casual but a little bit dressed up. Maybe if you go on vacation, you go to the beach, whatever you might need. Get a linen pant in your rotation and get that linen pant at Quint. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quint.com unspooled for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/unspooled for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com unspooled starting or growing your own

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Amy Nicholson (22:42)

unschooled.

Paul Scheer (22:43)

I mean, this movie looks like it's shot all over the world, but besides New York, they only go one other place.

Amy Nicholson (22:50)

Yeah. I didn't know Iceland had deserts. Are you kidding me?

Paul Scheer (22:53)

No. I mean, Iceland is Afghanistan, and it's also Greenland. Yeah, they do everything there. It's pretty amazing. Isn't the idea that Iceland was called Iceland to keep people away and Greenland is actually the colder, more uninhabitable one?

Amy Nicholson (23:12)

That's exactly it. It's early propaganda. Is it propaganda? What is misleading false advertising? I don't know what the right word would be.

Paul Scheer (23:20)

That's for our geography podcast. We'll get into that, break down all the continents. I do think that this movie looks unbelievable. And it's, you know, a film, truly a film, because it was shot on anamorphic. It was. You know, I think this is probably right at the edge where we're going more digital.

Amy Nicholson (23:39)

Yeah. And some of the digital effects look really digital. But I think Stiller was trying to make this point of, hey, I'm nervous about this fact of us all living in a digital cloud world. I want to make sure that this film is tangible. I mean, he's making a film where one of the main characters is this photographer played by Sean Penn, who does not shoot digital. You know, and Walter Mitte himself does not work in digital. He has that crazy job. He's a negative asset manager. But that's because he literally works with photo negatives. You know, it's all about the tangibility, which is one of the elements in this film that I thought, like, in 2013. Okay, yeah, it did. 2026. As we're recording this, I'm like, oh, yes. And there should not be everything on the cloud.

Paul Scheer (24:21)

Yeah. And I think what I love about this movie is it does really embrace the analog. And when you see them in these rooms and you look at what Life magazine was, there's something really beautiful about it. I think we've seen culturally, us come back to wanting things that we can touch that are there. Right. The. Even in our film cameras, we are. You know, we're doing things where we're selling digital cameras that you can't see the image that you just took so you don't get caught trying to capture the perfect image.

Amy Nicholson (24:59)

That is an invention that I think the Sean Pan character would love. I mean, listen to this scene.

Paul Scheer (25:04)

When are you gonna take it? Sometimes I Don't.

Amy Nicholson (25:12)

Well, if I like a moment, I

Paul Scheer (25:16)

mean, me personally, I don't like to have the distraction of the camera. I just wanna stay in it. I love that. I love that scene. I had a teacher who told me that in college, actually told our whole class that in college. And we just like, this guy's a dick now. I appreciate what he was saying. There are these ways of being with the world. And I think that this movie, we're

Amy Nicholson (25:49)

selling things to keep us off our phones. Like, I'm addicted to one. I have the brick. I have the brick. I love my brick.

Paul Scheer (25:56)

Where do you keep your brick?

Amy Nicholson (25:57)

I keep my brick on my phone. I'm bricked pretty much all week, except for maybe 90 minutes in. My brick keeps me up. Instagram, it's the best. Like, and I love Instagram. But if you've noticed, I haven't been on Instagram as much. It's just got. I've bricked so long that I forget about Instagram and it's amazing.

Paul Scheer (26:14)

I love, I love hearing that people have been saying that the brick is one of the best things they've ever done. And now I thought the idea was,

Amy Nicholson (26:21)

but like to buy a thing to keep us off a thing that we already own. Like, it's so crazy.

Paul Scheer (26:25)

Hey, you know it's an addiction, right? How many think about the cigarette industry or the anti smoking industry. Like, there's Nicorette patches, there's gum, there's hypnosis. There's so many things to keep you off the thing. Right? That's it.

Amy Nicholson (26:38)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It took a long time for my thumbs to stop instinctively going to Instagram every time I had to wait in line longer than 10 seconds.

Paul Scheer (26:47)

I know. That's when I thought that's when we're supposed to be able to do it. But I guess maybe that's where you're supposed to be thinking and enjoying it.

Amy Nicholson (26:54)

To be embracing the boredom, right? To be imagining. To be imagining like what this movie said. We don't even have time to imagine. Cause we're just looking at things.

Paul Scheer (27:02)

And what I do love about Stiller's character in this is he is not a guy who's like, guys, we need to have tangible things. We need to imagine. We need to live in the now. I mean, he's the gatekeeper of a dying art, which is film photography and making sure those negatives stay right. Cause that's our history there. And I think, to your point, doesn't want to go digital in the cloud. This movie is about film. I Think it makes sense why he's shooting this on film and not wanting it to be the Adam Scott version of the movie. So, yes, I think that this is a character who we have seen before achieves something very different than what we have seen before as well. Right. We have this opening that we know. Oh, he's the nice guy who's too shy. The girl doesn't notice him. And I think it's beautifully articulated in this scene where Ben Stiller is talking to Kristen Wiig's son. Her son's a skateboarder.

Amy Nicholson (28:09)

Ben Stiller used to be a skateboarder, huh? Yeah.

Paul Scheer (28:12)

Yeah. And there's a scene where she is on the phone, has her back towards Stiller and her son, and Stiller is doing these amazing tricks on the skateboard because he used to be a skateboarder. Right. And she's just missing them. Not because she's oblivious. But I think it also shows us, like, Stiller's character's kind of cool. Right. He used to skateboard. He could do this. So when you see him skateboard at the end of the movie, it's not like he's cool. He learned how to skateboard. It's actually kind of not even earned. It's just a part of his character. I was having lunch with a friend the other day who told me, like, oh, yeah, I always envision myself as a skateboarder. That's who I was as a kid. And I was like, oh, wow. I didn't really realize that that was something that was you. But there's a coolness to that. Yeah. Like, that's. Of course, Stiller's a skateboarder. He can still be a skateboarder. It's not. I remember that moment getting goofed on so much that he was skateboarding towards the end of the movie. I'm like, but it's earned. It's earned and set up beautifully.

Amy Nicholson (29:10)

Yeah. And I think actually Stiller is doing a chunk of his actual own skateboarding in that. I don't think he's doing all of it, but I think he actually can skate. And he's doing the closeups, but. Right. Cause to your point of what you're making, this isn't a movie about a guy who's like, I hate the world. I don't wanna go into the world. I'm anti the world. This is a movie about a guy who hoped he would go to the world, and then he just got derailed. You know, he has that story that he tells about why he is traumatized by the sight of a Papa John's. What happened to him when he was a kid and his life didn't get to go the way that he planned? So you said that you left Papa John's because of the cups. Is there something I should be aware of as a customer?

Paul Scheer (29:48)

No, I just. I worked there, that's all. I just. I used to have a Mohawk and a background and I guess this idea of who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do and. Yeah, Nothing. Just.

Amy Nicholson (30:08)

Just.

Paul Scheer (30:10)

I was pretty close with my dad and he died when I was 17 on a Tuesday. And we didn't have any savings, so I got a haircut. Haircut that Thursday and a job the same Thursday.

Amy Nicholson (30:29)

Papa John's.

Paul Scheer (30:31)

Yeah.

Amy Nicholson (30:32)

Love that. Because it speaks to even. Just the futures we imagine for ourselves and have a hard time reaching because things are always getting in the way, you know? And also, can we just say, I think part of why this movie turned people off too, is just the product placement is so visible and crazy and big, but also often negative, which is strange, too. It's like, we'll take your Papa John's money. We'll show a lot of Papa John's cups, We'll talk about why Papa John's is terrifying and, like, represents horror and trauma to this guy. Well, we'll have you get, like, pat down by the TSA and we'll give you a Cinnabon and we'll give you a real good long close up of this Cinnabon. But then we're going to call it this.

Paul Scheer (31:08)

How long were you detained for, by the way? Like, 17 hours. Wow. How's that Cinnabon taste? Really great. That's like. That's frosted heroin, what you're eating, my friend. That's what you're having right there, man.

Amy Nicholson (31:23)

I mean, it's strange, right? This movie, I think, does kind of straddle two worlds. Like, big, small. Product placement. Yes, Product placement, no. I mean, I guess what I'm saying is how impossible to try to make a very big blockbuster movie that is commercial, but is also against commercialism. Right, Right.

Paul Scheer (31:39)

Because, like, all of his interactions with the commercial product kind of help his awakening, right? It's like kind of like, oh, this is dumb. Like, these things are dumb. It's not like, oh, this is my comfort food.

Amy Nicholson (31:51)

Yeah. Or, why is there a Papa John's in Iceland? Why am I traveling the world and the world is the same?

Paul Scheer (31:56)

Let me tell you, Amy, I did eat at a Pizza Hut in Iraq.

Amy Nicholson (31:59)

Really?

Paul Scheer (32:00)

Yeah. I had one.

Amy Nicholson (32:01)

But how was it really.

Paul Scheer (32:02)

It was just Pizza Hut. Yeah.

Amy Nicholson (32:05)

Did it taste exactly the same?

Paul Scheer (32:06)

I mean, kind of. We might have even went to a Papa John's in London for my kids at one point. Yeah.

Amy Nicholson (32:16)

You know, I mean, I am all about going to a McDonald's in foreign countries just to be like, what do you have here? Like, I remember going to Kiev and they were really into McDonald's serving. Oh, what was it? Lavender flavored lemonade. And I was like, bizarre. I'll get it. It's those little things where it's like, you know, okay, I'll allow it. Cause it's like your world, but different. It almost helps you see the changes in things.

Paul Scheer (32:41)

Right? Yeah. I think that that is really what this movie is. It's like, look, like, how do you look at things? You can look at things through this window. That is the invisible now. Or you can actually look at the world and say, I can actually achieve that. I can actually go and do that now. Yes. He travels the world and is it possible? Clearly, he goes broke. Right. And. And his whole, you know, this thing that he was gonna do, which was like, get his mom, who is clearly in the twilight of her life, played by Shirley MacLaine. Beautifully done. I mean, wow. This casting in. This is just a John Daly.

Amy Nicholson (33:21)

I mean, there's no. That's not done as, like, a shout out to the apartment, too. Right, right.

Paul Scheer (33:25)

We were talking about that as well. Right? Yeah. This idea of the. Yeah.

Amy Nicholson (33:27)

Talking about Shirley MacLaine loving Jerry Maguire and then bringing out her and being like. Yeah, we based Renee Zellweger on her. Like, I definitely read that Stiller would watch the apartment as he was writing this. So it feels like. Yeah, actually, wait, that's true. Shirley MacLaine was the first actress he cast, so he was going all in on the apartment.

Paul Scheer (33:42)

And I do think that this movie does show this thing. Like, he wants to move his mom into an apartment that can fit this piano. But, like, why? Why do we still need this piano? And you hear these reasons why. And Shirley MacLaine's like, I don't care. I don't really care about it. And, you know, we. We put all this stuff around us and does it really make a difference? And I think that, again, these are small changes. They're very small. And I think that that makes probably most people who go to see this feel, like, less fulfilled, because it doesn't. We want to see the Rachel Leigh Cook. Sorry for this old reference. Take off her glasses, pull the, you know, the scrunchie out of her hair and be calm. Rachel Leigh Cook. Right. But. And that's what we've been trained to do. I think that that's probably the issue with movies and the issues with, like, this transformation.

Amy Nicholson (34:44)

We.

Paul Scheer (34:45)

We tell normal people, well, you can change. You can actually become super hot. You know, it's not about your personality. It's about, like, who you are. Like, if you're just hot, then your personality will shine through. Right. And we're trained to accept it. And we want, like, we're like Pavlov's dogs. We want to see that big thing. And not to say that he doesn't change. He looks cooler at the end. I mean, he definitely looks cooler at the end of the movie.

Amy Nicholson (35:07)

Right. They call him Pat Nuzval, calls him a cross of Indiana Jones and the lead singer of the Strokes. He just has a goatee. He actually just looks more like Adam Scott. They both just got facial hair now. Except Adam Scott is, like, ridiculous. His goatee died. Like, it's real unnatural.

Paul Scheer (35:24)

It does look a little. Yeah, it does look a little crazy. But I also love it. I think that there is a manicured nature to very rich people that I really appreciate here. And I also think if he doesn't have that facial hair, he looks too similar to Ben Stiller.

Amy Nicholson (35:44)

That's fair. Like, Adam Scott is just so good at drilling into these negative, awful people who remind you of, like, the bully when you were young.

Paul Scheer (35:52)

Yeah.

Amy Nicholson (35:52)

I mean, the way he just calls Ben Stiller Cakeman, like, just the delivery of Cake man is so mean. Right.

Paul Scheer (36:00)

And it's like, it is bully behavior. Right. It's like. And it's getting laughs. Like, he's not an over the top bad guy. Right. He's just kind of a dick.

Amy Nicholson (36:09)

He's just a dick who's been put in charge of this magazine that he doesn't know about, doesn't really care about that. He doesn't invest in the motto, you know, I love how they expose his confident ignorance. Like his, like the quintessence scene. Right. I expect full consideration of negative 25 for cover. My most grand.

Paul Scheer (36:31)

The quintessence of life. The. What is that? What's it about? The fullest and most rich.

Amy Nicholson (36:40)

Okay, so our cover will probably be

Paul Scheer (36:41)

the most famous ever because it really will have the big quintessence of all time. Very full and so rich.

Amy Nicholson (36:50)

Like, not only does he just not know what that word exactly means, but he has just to act like it means. He knows what it means. He's like, let's Go get some quintessence.

Paul Scheer (36:56)

You know, I heard a great story where a friend was correcting a very famous person who is very established, and they're like, actually, you got that wrong. It was this. And then the response from the famous bigger producer was, yes. Yeah, I know.

Amy Nicholson (37:23)

I know I got it wrong.

Paul Scheer (37:24)

No, no. Like, I know the answer. If you said, oh, yeah, the answer is Iceland. And you said, actually, it's Greenland, you're like, no, no. Yeah, I know. No, you didn't know. But you can't even. Like, that, to me, is like, the perfect level of I couldn't do it. The voice, clearly, I think the people know who I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah. Like a complete.

Amy Nicholson (37:48)

Just contradiction in how that can be.

Paul Scheer (37:50)

Yeah. Like, you are wrong, but you're never gonna even admit that you are close to being wrong.

Amy Nicholson (37:54)

The one that sticks with me, actually, that's sort of related to that is, like, when I very first moved to la, like, very first, I'd lived here less than a couple months. For some reason, I befriended a really wonderful person who was a composer who brought me to the set of their score that they were recording, which was directed by a pretty big director. So I'm sitting watching just a score get made, and it's really, really cool. I feel, like, so awesome to be there. And the director comes and sits down next to me, and I've got this crossword puzzle in my hand that I'm doing. And the director puts a word in that is wrong in my crossword puzzle.

Paul Scheer (38:26)

Oh, my God.

Amy Nicholson (38:27)

And I'm 22, so I'm just like, okay. And I just let it pass. And I still feel shame over that moment. I just let them put something in my consciousness and I couldn't correct it.

Paul Scheer (38:37)

You can't really correct it. Right. Like, you know, I think that where this movie maybe goes off the rails for me is it's got a very odd structure to it. Like, there's a moment where you're like, oh, the movie is over. And then it goes on for about 45 more minutes and.

Amy Nicholson (38:57)

And that's back to Afghanistan. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Scheer (39:00)

Again, that's not to say that I don't like those 45 minutes, but when you're watching the movie, it's like, oh, I feel like we've hit. We've hit the apex. We get it. Right. Like, he didn't find it, but it. But yet it's working. And you're like, why didn't people like it? And it kind of has that same issue that a lot of people. Kind of ding. Funny people for. Right. Which is like this extra chunk at the end that you're like, oh, but I liked it up to here. I don't know if I like it over here and.

Amy Nicholson (39:31)

Right. Cause it's just shaggy enough. It doesn't seem like you would have had to go home, honestly.

Paul Scheer (39:36)

Right. And I don't know. Like that to me is. My issue with this movie is like I. And it's a small one because I actually, I mean, then if I cut out that I'm not finding the Sean Penn part. Right. And I'm not getting these other moments that I think are really fulfilling.

Amy Nicholson (39:56)

Yeah. I just think he doesn't have to go home. Like, what does he go home for? To find out that everybody got fired and that she's. That her like partner is there. That he can imagine that Kristen Wiig is back with her ex husband. He could just call her. It doesn't, it doesn't have to happen with him. Like, go wing home.

Paul Scheer (40:09)

Right. And it also then I think takes me out of the movie too because I start to buy the idea that he's traveling around. He's getting these like puddle jumpers to the next place, to the next place, to the next place. And he's. It like the, the adventure is kind of building up around him. But the minute he goes home, I'm like, oh, then you have to pack up again and go back out. Like, you know, they're. They're like, they're. I don't know. I guess. Cause he's not independently wealthy. He doesn't have all these tools at his disposal. But that's. That to me, I think breaks my fantasy of the movie. Right. Cause the movie is like I've bought in at this point. And I think in a weird way, in a movie where you are breaking for fantasies, I almost feel like this movie breaks for reality. And that's the section where he goes back and it's like, oh, everything hasn't changed. It's not magical. And that I think is like a. You're in like, oh. You know, just kind of like it stops the flow.

Amy Nicholson (41:07)

Yeah. Because that one real moment, like he has those build up moments of really investing in this journey. Like first he just goes to Greenland in the first place, which is a big one. But then he almost stops there because he's like, okay, well now Sean Penn is on a boat. The only way I can get there is this really, really drunk, like this really, really drunk helicopter pilot who was mad that he broke up with his girlfriend and his decision to risk his life to get on that helicopter where he sees Kristen Wiig come out and she sings to him and she sings Major Tom. And he does that, I think, really beautiful kind of countdown of running onto the helicopter and investing. Like that's the investment moment. And you kind of just want his trip to kind of tumble off after there to spill over the dumpster. Let's hear a little bit of that song, actually, because I love it. 10. Ground Control to major taunt. Seven, six. Commencing countdown. Engine voice two.

Paul Scheer (42:08)

Check ignition. And may God's love be with you.

Amy Nicholson (42:19)

So, yeah, I think after that leap, it's like he's just making a second leap to go to Afghanistan. It doesn't have to happen that way. It just. The big leap. He goes continually.

Paul Scheer (42:27)

The leap is starting, right?

Amy Nicholson (42:29)

Yeah.

Paul Scheer (42:30)

And I think it's. It's interesting because the movie does also. And this is not like a spoiler, because we're talking about movies we've already seen. But the beauty of the end is he does his job. Like, he does do his job. Right. He's never breaking off of his job. And I feel like they're trying to, like, make us understand that this is still in the real world. And I feel like the movie is wrestling with the fact that it's even a movie. Right. In that way, it's like, well, life isn't like a movie. Like, you would go back and then maybe you would go again. But it's like that, I think, wrecks the flow of what's happening.

Amy Nicholson (43:09)

Yeah. I mean, in a way, it kind of reminded me of what we were talking about last week with the bizarre movie structure of Jerry Maguire. How it starts with the ending and then tries to undo the ending and, like, rewind. And how it almost feels like it's kind of dissecting movie conventions as it's going on. Like that scene where Tom Cruise is in the car. He's trying to have his big moment. I got Kush, I wanna sing. It's that movie mom, where I'm like, the happy person in the car and he's singing in triumph, but he doesn't know the songs on the radio, and so he can't get that scene for a second. Yeah, it feels like this movie's almost like that too. You know, having all of these scenes in your head that have to be right but not quite right. They can't really work. It almost is trying to defy movie

Paul Scheer (43:47)

convention, but it doesn't really play with it. Whereas I feel like there's an intentionality to those scenes in Jerry Maguire. Right. The idea is, like, what if we started a movie with the end? What if we have that triumphant moment and pull the air out from it? You know, it's like, it's. I think that that's a little bit more intentional where this feels. I don't think it's trying to comment on anything that. In that same way. Although I will say, do you think that Patton Oswalt is a fictional character or is a real character?

Amy Nicholson (44:22)

Oh, okay. Now, if we're getting into this. Okay, here we go. Because. Well, one funny thing about the Patton Oswald eharmony character is my very good friend, when I first moved out to la, had Patton Oswalt's job. He was a customer service person for eharmony.

Paul Scheer (44:40)

Oh, wow.

Amy Nicholson (44:41)

And he wore Hawaiian shirts like that too. So when Patton Oswalt walks on screen, I'm always just laughing because on a very practical level, which is not what you're asking, he is such a real person to me, because I'm like, oh, that's my roommate. Right, right, right, right. And I loved asking him questions about the inner life of eHarmony because it was fascinating. You know, he worked there around. He stopped working there by this time. But, yeah, it's very intense to be a customer service person for eharmony because you have made plans that you are gonna help people find the love of their life. And, oh, my goodness. I don't think he was calling people all the time like this, being, like, best friends, but still, very funny. What I think you're asking is, could this entire movie be a fantasy inside his own brain? Like, is this entire thing a dream? Cause it almost gets too magical in moments where, like, wait, this cake is here. You have the cake from your mom. This piano is your mom. Like, all of the things that tie it together almost seem too perfect.

Paul Scheer (45:35)

I guess what I'm thinking is, it's 2013. Chances are this is all over email. And I love the idea that it's articulated through Patton. And his voice is fantastic. And you're kind of. He's like a narrator. Like, giving him. He's a cheerleader feedback.

Amy Nicholson (45:49)

He's like, you're doing it. You're doing it. The cell service is working on the top peaks of mountain ranges in Afghanistan. Yeah.

Paul Scheer (45:55)

And the only part of it that kind of takes me out of it is that Patton is the person that he calls when he's, like, trapped in LA after he, like, beats up, you know, the person in the airport, which I think is a little unmotivated, but yeah.

Amy Nicholson (46:06)

Oh, and it looks just like. Doesn't it look just like Total Recall?

Paul Scheer (46:08)

Total Recall, yeah.

Amy Nicholson (46:10)

Oh, God. Split lives and split identities. Wait. It is all coming around. Oh, my God. Living in. Oh my gosh. Living in your imagination of what you're. Your life is. Do you think that's on purpose? Because I do believe, yes.

Paul Scheer (46:21)

I think that this is a remake of Total Recall and that's what I was getting to.

Amy Nicholson (46:24)

Really?

Paul Scheer (46:24)

I know. Oh, I mean. But yes, but it also is true. It's a true.

Amy Nicholson (46:28)

But actually, now I'm convincing myself.

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Paul Scheer (47:19)

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Amy Nicholson (52:38)

But even if they meet in person, really, it doesn't. Yeah, yeah. They never actually match through eharmony in a way. She doesn't respond to any links.

Paul Scheer (52:46)

So do you. Right. So it's also showing the bullshit of that. So I guess the question is, do you think he's real or false? Do you think that he's real or imagined?

Amy Nicholson (52:55)

I'm gonna take that one step further and say I do think there's a reading where the entire movie is imagined. I do think there's a reading where this entire movie is inceptioned. Because the last shot that we really see of him walking down the street with Kristen Wiig, everything's great. He's on the COVID of Life magazine because it's about honoring the people who made it, about honoring the workers, which I think is beautiful. And this movie actually has a very pro worker stance as opposed to the rich people who buy journalism jobs and shut them down, which I find very near and dear to my heart because that's incredibly true. Acquisitions and everybody losing their job. But that last shot in the way we See them. There's something weird happening with the camera lens that we see one other time in the film where it's being filmed through the loop that he's looking at where the frame is kind of watery. Beautiful, strange, unreal. We've seen him look through that loop one other time when he sees her outside, when she comes up and talks to him while he's looking at negatives. It makes me paranoid that this is all in his fantasy because the loop is his eyeball looking out at the world when he's kind of there and kind of not there. I don't wanna think that's true because I wanna just, like, believe in the heart of this movie as is, you know, he did it. He did it. And I'm so proud of him. Because, honestly, the journey that he goes on is the real reward. Even more than Kristen Wiig, I think. Just the journey itself. But, man, it makes me nervous, though, you know?

Paul Scheer (54:23)

You know? And now what I'm also thinking about in the filmography of Ben Stiller. And forgive me if I'm missing something here, but if I'm thinking about Reality Bites, Tropic Thunder in this movie, I'm thinking about real people versus fake people, you know, and who we are versus who we want to be. And I think that there's something with, like, Michael and Troy in Reality Bites and, like, Troy is pretending to be something but actually risking nothing. Where Michael is looking like he's nothing but actually doing something, you know? Tropic Thunder, all these people who look like action heroes but actually are idiots and dopes. And this is a movie, you know, like, it's a really, like, Ben Stiller's often, I think, wrestling with this idea of identity. Right? Who are we and who do we look like and what does it mean? And, you know, I know that you. You know, you talk. I mean, even look, you could even push it and say, like, Zoolander has elements of that too, like, who am I? Like, you judge me for this.

Amy Nicholson (55:29)

I'm perceived. Yeah. And Zoolander, I think, because this movie didn't do well. The only other film he actually directs after this, besides a documentary on his parents, is Zoolander 2. And he hasn't made a movie after that. He's switched over to TV and doing Severance, which I think is very much about identity. And he's been acting in other people's movies, like another movie. I love that. I will champion Till the end of Time. Brad Status, directed by Mike White.

Paul Scheer (55:52)

So good.

Amy Nicholson (55:52)

So good. And also about identity.

Paul Scheer (55:55)

Greenberg is great. I Love that.

Amy Nicholson (55:57)

Yeah. But I think that is kind of his lane. I love that you're pointing that out. And you wouldn't expect it from a guy who's sort of born to parents, already in the business of performing that he would be so invested in this idea of, am I real or not? Am I a success or not? How do I measure success? Am I measuring against my dreams or other people's dreams for me? But that is so his lane. And he hasn't kind of strayed from it.

Paul Scheer (56:20)

No, it really is about these personalities that we have. I think that's kind of indicative of being a child of performers. Also having a private life and a personal life that you have to balance, like who you are and what people want you to be. Obviously, you know, he is a person who everybody wants him to be funny all the time. And, you know, and he maybe is not that all the time. I've worked with Ben Stiller and a handful of times, and he is awesome and so creative and so hands on. And, you know, probably there's a part of people, look, I grew up on Ben Stiller's show. I love Ben Stiller's show. It made a big difference in my life as far as, like, what sketch comedy could be. But he's not the character from Dodgeball. He's not Zoolander. He is more like these characters in, you know, Noah Baumbach movies or, you know, Mike White movies. These smaller characters that he plays, which. Yeah, like when he's also incredibly hilarious. Yes, exactly.

Amy Nicholson (57:17)

Like when he did that episode, it was all about his own anxieties too. You know, he was like, really hard on the cast. Cause he was so determined to excel at this. Like, Jeffrey Katzenberg once said that, like working with Ben Stiller, even just on the Madagascar films, that he said the way that their relationship works. And this is a Jeffrey Katzenberg quote. I love that we're quoting Jeffrey Katzenberg twice in two weeks in a row. Cause we've read his manifesto. In the Jerry Maguire episode, he said, quote, ben beats on me unmercifully with chains, sabers, and two by fours, delivering his anxieties, frustrations and ambitions full velocity. Like that, I think, is who Ben Stiller really is. And so it's funny that so many of his comedy roles are kind of prat folly. Cause it's not him.

Paul Scheer (57:58)

Right. And you know, Mitty sees himself. He goes outside of himself and sees who he wants to be. And then there are other people who just do that thing, pretend they are that taller person. Right. We've talked about. I know I talked about it on Dark Web, like, height maxing. These guys who are using hammers to change the bone structure of their face.

Amy Nicholson (58:22)

Oh, that reminds me of how stupid that scene is in that romantic comedy the Materialist, where it's like, oh, she has to break up with Foeda Basel because he's a hype maxer.

Paul Scheer (58:29)

Oh, God, it's so stupid. It's so stupid. Now, I will say that also, there's

Amy Nicholson (58:34)

no way his head would belong on a shorter body. That just doesn't make sense either.

Paul Scheer (58:38)

We got a neck length, too. But this. I want to go back to Adam Scott because we're talking about his beard, and Ben Stower was talking about this idea, like, in the script, it was written that he had this kind of Grecian formula business beard. And that, I think, is a term that is a little bit older. The Grecian formula, which it's this idea for. Oh, it's like. It was. I think when I was a kid, I understood it to be like. It was like a beard coloring thing.

Amy Nicholson (59:05)

Right.

Paul Scheer (59:05)

Like, you have Grecian formula was like, you never wanted to show the gray in your beard.

Amy Nicholson (59:10)

It's interesting, like, how you go see old statues of Greeks, so they have, like, really crazy curls in their beards.

Paul Scheer (59:17)

The idea was that, like, Greek men have this virility to them, and the beard is thick and black. And so that was the idea, like, making it really dark and black and, you know, and.

Amy Nicholson (59:28)

Right. He's phony to have that beard. Okay.

Paul Scheer (59:31)

Exactly.

Amy Nicholson (59:31)

Deliberately phony to have that beard. Okay, got it.

Paul Scheer (59:34)

Yeah. So that's what I think is, like, part of it, you know, is like this thing, like, he's darkening his beard. I'm actually looking at it right now. Grecian formula is a progressive liquid or cream coloring product for men to gradually reduce gray hair over several weeks by darkening it with each application.

Amy Nicholson (59:50)

Wow.

Paul Scheer (59:50)

You know, so I never thought about that.

Amy Nicholson (59:52)

I kind of like a salt and pepper in a beard.

Paul Scheer (59:54)

Yeah, me too. But when you look at, like, all these. The logos and their boxes and stuff, it's about, like. It is just about. I won't want to show my age. I want to, you know, do this. You know, I'm looking at a hilarious one right now of DJ Khaled. You know, talk about a beard guy who is, you know, coloring that thing a little bit darker. You know, Pete Rose did ads for Grecian formula. You know, it's like, because he was gray, you know, I don't know. I Think that, like, that idea of, like, what's your virility? Where is your virility at? So anyway, I'm just fascinated by this idea that he is constantly wrestling with. Who are we? Who do we appear to be? What's better or worse to fantasize or live a lie? And this movie is a saying, do what you do. Like, he doesn't become. I mean, what does he become at the end? I don't think he changes his career. Like, we don't know where he's off to or what is going to become of him. Right? There's no, you know, there's no real ending. I think that we feel like, if anything, the bookends of this movie is he is somebody worthy of being in a relationship because he actually is being his true self and he has the

Amy Nicholson (61:15)

courage to go out and try to date her.

Paul Scheer (61:18)

Right? But he is not a different person. He is like, he took some chances. He, I think, will be a better partner. Right. I always believe that, like, in a relationship, it takes two people to keep the fire of a relationship going. Not, you know, even romantically, but just like your own personality. You can't be flat while another person's alive. Right? You both have to be kind of. I think that's what's exciting to your partner to say, like, oh, I'm working on things. I'm. I'm dealing with things good, bad, whatever. You know, even if you're depressed, but you have to come back up. It's just you want to see somebody challenged, being challenged, you know, and you're rooting for them to thrive. But I think that he's a character that was just trying to not rock the boat.

Amy Nicholson (62:08)

I mean, but it is interesting, though, that the date they finally go on because it opens with him wanting to wink at her and go on a date. It ends with him going on a date finally, maybe for real, starting to go on a date. What he asks her to do is he asks her to go to his sister's production of Greece in a church. And it's not even the coolest date in the world. It's just like, it's the best. Here's the thing. Yeah, it's right. It's a great date, but it's not like, hey, baby, let's go to Paris, you know?

Paul Scheer (62:32)

Well, right?

Amy Nicholson (62:33)

That's like what a real date could be. And she says something I find really interesting after that. I actually always related to Rizzo more.

Paul Scheer (62:41)

Oh, yeah?

Amy Nicholson (62:42)

Yeah.

Paul Scheer (62:43)

Was the smoking and the teenage sex.

Amy Nicholson (62:46)

No, she was just real I guess. Okay, think about this. Her last line in the movie, she likes Rizzo because she's real. What we have seen him do this entire movie is not just fantasizing about himself, but fantasizing about her, too. You know?

Paul Scheer (63:01)

Right.

Amy Nicholson (63:02)

He doesn't really know her, actually. And I love how Kristen Wiig plays this role. Every time we see her, she's talking really normal, acting really normal. She's not being kind of a fantasy girl character. She's not like a manic pixie girl in this. No, I love how normal she is. She's insecure. Am I talking too much about my fridge? But this statement of, like, Rizzo is real. You know, like a girl who's real, I think is really important because what he was fantasizing her about, that she was the woman in Benjamin Button, for Christ's sake. Which now I have to play that.

Paul Scheer (63:33)

Can I tell you something?

Amy Nicholson (63:34)

Anything.

Paul Scheer (63:37)

I have that Benjamin Buttons thing where you get old, but smaller or whatever and become a gradual old baby or something. I didn't see the movie, so I don't really know how it works, but I have it.

Amy Nicholson (63:51)

We can still build a life together.

Paul Scheer (63:54)

Cool.

Amy Nicholson (64:08)

I like your snappy little suit.

Paul Scheer (64:11)

I bought it at a doll store.

Amy Nicholson (64:13)

Oh, cool.

Paul Scheer (64:17)

My little heart is no bigger than a quarter, but it's as full as board knocks.

Amy Nicholson (64:25)

You're the bravest man I've ever known. I love you, baby. Not like baby, like. Because you look like a little. Little weird baby man.

Paul Scheer (64:38)

I get it.

Amy Nicholson (64:39)

Thank you for such a wonderful life. Just nestle in here and die. And that's so funny. He's like, I know that's not even how Benjamin Button works, but I like how beautiful it is that it just makes no sense.

Paul Scheer (64:56)

And I think this idea that you don't need to do anything. And, you know, sorry, to your point. I think if at the end of the movie, he took her and they got on a hot air balloon or they went to Paris, like, that's not life. But I'll tell you, this guy who's unemployed, dating this, you know, single mom, they're gonna go see it. They're gonna go see a church production of Greece. That's not gonna be probably great, but they'll have a great time. Right? You don't need to go to Afghanistan. You don't need to jump out of a helicopter. Right. By the way, love the helicopter pilot, who I believe was the husband on the Amazing Maria Bamford Show. He is great. A little Easter egg in the movie is that he says you shouldn't cheat on your girlfriend in a country with eight people, and then you only see eight other people there so that you get the actual idea of those people.

Amy Nicholson (65:49)

He's also, I think, in Eurovision, another movie. I deeply.

Paul Scheer (65:52)

Oh, yes. Yeah. But that, to me is. I think that's the hopeful part. But I guess the question that I keep on coming back to is, do people not respond to this movie? Because it's not giving them the candy, right? It's not giving them the fantasy that we have chosen to believe in when we see a movie like this, right? Like the hero saves the day. But there's not. Like the magazine doesn't come back online. His picture is beautiful and obviously it's of him. But it's also about the magazine, right? It's. It. Are we rejecting it because it's almost too true to life?

Amy Nicholson (66:34)

I mean, I think that we rejected it when it first came out, maybe because of those reasons and maybe because I think the movie does lean a little bit too much on score. You know, like really good big pop songs. I mean, in a way, this was a moment just in pop culture that was kind of at the tail end of the. How much do we embrace over the top emotion? This was kind of at the end of that whole series of movies like Pursuit of Happiness or oh, the Magical Dollar Goes all around the World and, like, Follow it around or, you know, things where it's like, believing in kind of a Hollywood version of how life should be or could be if we all just, like, hugged and loved each other a little bit more. And it was strange. I felt like we had this weird, really intense period that I just think of as, like, early 2000s films, you know, where everything felt a little too squishy, everything was a little too magical, everything was a little too high concept. And I think this comes in and kind of gets lumped into that because it really looks and moves like that, even though it isn't.

Paul Scheer (67:31)

Right. Cause I think that we're judging it by. This is. The issue that I sometimes have is like, people don't understand irony anymore, right? If you write it down, it's like, well, that's what you must have meant. There's no way of reading anything with a critical eye. And so, yes, while there are things like, what is it? Arcade Fire playing, you know, like, wake up when he's, you know, leaving wherever he's leaving, right? And that feels like, look, it works for me. I'm not mad about it, but.

Amy Nicholson (68:00)

Well, I think it's just. It bowls you over with how much heart it has in a way that can make people be like, ah, you know.

Paul Scheer (68:05)

Right. And I think that, like, there's also an energy. I'm gonna take out the commercials and things. Cause I think we already discussed that. But I think that there's always a negativity towards positivity, right? Like, I just want to reiterate, like, I don't think this is a movie that's preaching anything more than favor moments, right? Like, live life. That. That's. If that's positive, then we really have it in the bottom barrel, right? It's like. It's not like everything is good. It's not like. It's not like everything will work out. It's just really, like, just be in the moment. Be who you are. And, you know, I feel like, you know, people are upset, like, well, he's not a loser anymore. And I would argue he's never a loser. He's just him. And he hasn't changed. Like, he's not. He's not cooler or anything. I think the movie does a really smart job of that. But I think you put a beard on this guy and you go, his life changed. He was a nerdy guy. Now he's got a beard. This is bullshit. I don't know. I don't know why. I can't quite figure it out. But I think that there is an issue with positivity.

Amy Nicholson (69:16)

I mean, I think that's true. I think this movie really does want to make you feel something. Even if I think kind of there's a part of Ben Slayer that's crossing his fingers at the very end and being like, maybe we'll see if this is true. But it wants so hard to trigger an emotion. And I think it does. It really works on me, too. But it works on me even as I'm going, oh, man, this Arcade Fire is carrying a lot of weight. But you know what? I don't mind. You chose it. And it's a total package. In a way, it's almost instilling.

Paul Scheer (69:43)

Isn't that what scores are supposed to do? Like, I mean, right.

Amy Nicholson (69:47)

This is kind of like the conversation we had about the Notebook, right? That the Notebook works. It makes you cry, and sometimes you're like, oh, man. But I really want this movie to work on me when I'm in the mood for this movie, it really does. And I love seeing how many people it works on, too. That kind of the mutual love for Mitty makes me feel less alone as a human being. Right?

Paul Scheer (70:08)

And I also think, like, there's I love Project Hail Mary. We've talked about it already on the show, but they used some wonderful music there that really punctures moments. And when. Well done. That's what these are the. That's what music does. Right? It's Harold and Maude.

Amy Nicholson (70:31)

Right?

Paul Scheer (70:31)

It's all these. We're coming from a bunch of films that use music so effectively. Even reality bites. Like, we can put these things in. That's the job of them. Right? But I guess there's a rejection of it when it's like, oh, you got me. Or when people go like, oh, yeah, it got me. It got me crying. I didn't want to, but it got me. Like, why not just cry? Just fucking cry.

Amy Nicholson (70:56)

Projecting it is like being Adam Scott, saying, you know what? Not having anything on a cover, making it, say, just the end of life on a black cover. That's what's cool, right? To open up to something which is the point of the whole movie in itself. But I think it is also easier to kind of go around being like, well, I really like the movie Brazil because it is kind of cynical and negative and tragic. And I love Brazil, and I was so happy we did that recently. But Brazil is, I would say, cynical. Midi. It's also about a guy with a job that's a little bit dull, who daydreams about going to other places and living with his fantasy girl and flying around and having wings. And does he get to do it? And does he not? And he gets caught up in his own adventure. I think when you say, I love a movie that's a little bit cynical about the world, you feel kind of cool. And when you say, I love a movie that's just a big, weird, messy, strange, bleeding heart, it's hard. It's harder. So I'm so proud of everybody who's, like, five stars, letterboxd. Love this film.

Paul Scheer (71:51)

Yeah. And I also think that from 2013 to 2026, we have only seen, I think, a movie like this become more and more relevant. How do we adapt in a world that's changing around us, that may not need us? What are the ways that we can kind of break free of the corporate structures? I mean, we're talking about this a lot, and, I don't know, I found this movie to be even more relevant now, over 10 years later.

Amy Nicholson (72:24)

Yeah. I mean, it's funny. There was a cut of this that I think had a scene where he winds up at the G8, that big, gigantic geopolitical conference, and representing the working man against the machine. To the point that Mitty plays, like, gets on stage and plays Rage against the Machine, like, performs it. And Stiller decided when he read that scene, he was like, oh, that's the first thing I have to cut. Because I don't want to come at people with anger in a way, even though that's also incredibly relevant. You know, we were trying to get a billionaire tax done here in California. Like, it's incredibly relevant. But is it better to go forward with anger, to go forward with heart? And that's tough, I think. I mean, sometimes it's sometimes anger, sometimes heart. Honestly, I go back and forth depending on my own mood.

Paul Scheer (73:09)

And by the way, you probably go back and forth in your own day. It's not like everything is perfect. Everything is right. But that moment with Sean Penn, who I think is brilliantly cast in this movie, it's a great. You know, we're searching for him. It's very much like, you know, moment with Orson Welles in the Third man, right? You've been hearing about this character, and then you see this character, and it's like, oh, yeah, that's him. And he's not magical. Right. It's that funny thing where he has that realization that, oh, yeah, I probably shouldn't have put it in the wallet. That was a little too cheeky, right?

Amy Nicholson (73:49)

Mad at him a little bit, right? Yeah.

Paul Scheer (73:51)

What the hell were you thinking? I mean, I'm sorry. I've admired you for a very long time, but that is not a good move at all. With a valuable negative.

Amy Nicholson (74:02)

Sorry, I just.

Paul Scheer (74:04)

I thought it would be playful kind of thing.

Amy Nicholson (74:07)

Playful.

Paul Scheer (74:09)

Too playful.

Amy Nicholson (74:10)

It's almost like you meet God, he's sitting on a mountaintop, and you're like, what is your fucking problem?

Paul Scheer (74:15)

Yeah, it really is. That's what I think is interesting. And maybe, you know, this is a movie that. That at a moment in 2013, felt saccharine at certain points because it's like, well, what? Come on. It just has become more real. And I think that people who find it.

Amy Nicholson (74:41)

We're at the moment, man. Yeah. We're like, everything's fine. We did it. Congrats. We solved the world. No.

Paul Scheer (74:49)

Yeah.

Amy Nicholson (74:50)

I will say, though, there is one other MIDI adaptation worth talking about that came out before our time, 1975, on TV. And I'm just gonna play the intro music. I'm Waldo Kitty A meek and mild kind of cat But I'm a daring hero and I like being that When I see a friend in me I

Paul Scheer (75:14)

want to be a friend indeed I just pretend and Suddenly I'm anyone, and I want to be a courageous kind of cat. Oh, my God. That is so fucking amazing.

Amy Nicholson (75:29)

Yes. Apparently there was a show called the Adventures of Waldo Kitty. It was a Walter Mitty starring a cat. It looks like somebody just went out and filmed their cat in a backyard and a dog and another cat. And then the cat has imaginations and goes inside a normal 70s style cartoon of everything cool that the cat is doing. And then he comes out and it's like, all right, I'm back with this dog and this Persian that is.

Paul Scheer (75:52)

I love it. Now I'm put that on our substack for sure. I mean, that is. I kind of almost want to watch it again.

Amy Nicholson (75:58)

Most of the episodes are on YouTube, so you can really deep dive into the Adventures of Waldo Kitty.

Paul Scheer (76:03)

Oh, my gosh. Well, Amy, I think this is really great. A great way to kind of end up our, you know, larger conversation about, you know, who we are, what we want to be, how our work defines us, and how to break free from that and the scariness of doing that. I mean, all the way back to Total Recall, right, we have been dealing with the fantasy versus the reality. But how do you bring some of that fantasy into your daily life? And maybe that's the only thing that this movie is trying to say is like, can't we just bring a little bit of that fun back to our lives? And.

Amy Nicholson (76:39)

And isn't that what movies help us do?

Paul Scheer (76:41)

Exactly, exactly. And I think that, you know, it's a shame sometimes when directors are ahead of the curve and we've seen this numerous times. You know, I am glad that this movie has gotten embraced and kind of edged up on lists and in people's minds.

Amy Nicholson (77:03)

Yeah. As recently as 2016, Rolling Stone voters voted it their number three favorite Ben Stiller movie, which is pretty big, honestly. I mean, number one and number two are, I believe, Tropic Thunder and There's something about Mary 2 movies I also want to do. But to be number three after those, that's incredible. Honestly, that's.

Paul Scheer (77:22)

I mean, his career is pretty iconic across the board. And like, you said, like, oh, he stopped directing movies and then directed, like, this show that is visually one of the most interesting shows on television. Right. Like, regardless of. I know you don't. You've only watched one episode of it. You weren't into it. But it is one of those shows that when you watch it, you're like, oh, my God, how are they doing this?

Amy Nicholson (77:41)

I know. I hear it gets really good. That's just my Problem with tv, man, it takes so long to get to the good stuff.

Paul Scheer (77:46)

I know, I know. Well, you know, I don't think that show does, but, yeah, maybe give it another shot, I think.

Amy Nicholson (77:53)

All right, all right. Maybe I will. Give me a horrible cold. And then when I stay home for a couple weeks, I'll have it. I'll wash it.

Paul Scheer (78:00)

I love it.

Amy Nicholson (78:01)

You know, when your daddy died, and then you went to work in that pizza place, the one that was named after a father, had that father kind of name.

Paul Scheer (78:09)

Papa John's. Yeah, delivery.

Amy Nicholson (78:10)

And I thought perhaps that it was really sad for you working in a restaurant named after a father after your father just died.

Paul Scheer (78:18)

I never even thought about that. Probably because I didn't call dad papa. All right, well, Amy, next week we are going to look ahead to see if maybe. Are there any other Walter Mittys on our view as we take a look at summer movies? That's right, we're looking at summer movies. A little taste of summer. What do you want to see? Let us know. In the discord. Also, make sure you're reading our substack as we'll post that kitty. And we'll also do some other stuff as well. And then while Amy is away, I can.

Amy Nicholson (78:49)

I like hearing Paul say he's gonna post his kitty.

Paul Scheer (78:51)

I'm gonna post that. I'll post my kitty. We are gonna have a very special lineup of amazing guests with their favorites. We're calling it Unspooled Critics Choice. Everyone's gonna bring one of their favorite films, films that we have not done here on the show, and talk about why they are their favorites. And I gotta tell you, killer lineup. Killer lineup for y'. All.

Amy Nicholson (79:12)

Oh, I'm so excited. I'm so jealous. I wish I could be there. I will be locked in Bookland, Nightmare Land, and also Cannes, which will be fun, but Bookland, Nightmare Land. So, ah, my book is due. I'm turning my book in in a month. I'm so excited.

Paul Scheer (79:26)

I cannot wait to read it. I'm sure it is amazing. All right, Amy, make sure you subscribe and check out our brand new YouTube page, which has nothing on it yet, but it will@getunspooled. So YouTube.com etunspooled just sign up and when we start launching, you'll see. And make sure you check out our substack each and every week to go a little bit deeper on the movies that we talk about here. It's always free, so join in the conversation. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now. Goodbye, Kyle.

Amy Nicholson (80:31)

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Paul Scheer (80:33)

to you like Pavlov's dog?

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Paul Scheer (80:37)

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Amy Nicholson (80:50)

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Amy Nicholson (80:55)

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Paul Scheer (80:59)

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