The Truman Show

Summary

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Unspooled | “The Truman Show”

Hosts: Paul Scheer & Amy Nicholson
Date: April 9, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Paul and Amy take a deep dive into Peter Weir’s The Truman Show (1998), starring Jim Carrey. They discuss its prophetic take on reality television, parasocial relationships, the psychological and cultural implications of surveillance and curated reality, and the film’s enduring resonance in an era of constant sharing and social media. The conversation ranges from the movie’s production history and tonal choices, casting Jim Carrey against type, to larger questions of authenticity, comfort, free will, and the neverending cycle of media consumption. The episode is rich with anecdotes, memorable quotes, and classic Unspooled banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Film’s Premise & Cultural Prediction

• [11:16] The hosts frame The Truman Show as shockingly prescient, predating Survivor and Big Brother and anticipating the explosion of reality TV and omnipresent surveillance.
• Amy: “Imagine, I mean, today we’re in an era where, like, kids are born already having Instagram accounts. Their first picture is their sonogram.”
• Paul: “I believe this created the future that we are living in. ... I think that this movie opened up our acceptance to reality as a primetime genre network format.” ([27:39])

2. The Evolution of Reality TV

• [12:04–15:38] Paul and Amy reminisce about the “social experiment” nature of early real-world reality shows, such as The Real World in contrast to modern iterations focused on branding and drama.
• Paul: “There was a grittiness to it, like a real verité nature to it that I think has been co-opted and completely blown out.”
• They discuss The Joe Schmo Show as a literal Truman Show-style prank that played out in real life ([29:50]).

3. Script Origins and Production Choices

• [15:38–19:36] The original script (Andrew Niccol’s The Malcolm Show) was much darker—addiction, infidelity, crime.
• Amy: “Relentless positivity is the worst sort of torture.” ([03:33])
• Peter Weir transformed the tone, relocating the story to a stylized, 1950s-like suburb. The aim was comfort over darkness, creating a reality viewers would be drawn to watch endlessly.

4. Casting Jim Carrey & Shifting the Tone

• [18:17] The hosts explore the significance of casting Jim Carrey, known for his zany comedies, as Truman.
• Paul: “Peter Weir is playing on all the things we love about Jim Carrey, but also giving him this runway to do something incredibly different.”
• Amy: “He is childlike. He is, like, so happy-go-lucky. So you’re actually watching someone who looks and acts like a child have this realization, like he’s having his puberty on camera—mental puberty.” ([57:56])

5. Parasocial Relationships & the Audience

• [15:10–15:38] The hosts discuss the idea of the fan who “loves the neighbor, framed on their wall”—an ultra-personal parasocial attachment that’s now expressed through Internet discourse, memes, and even buying Cameos from reality stars.
• They explore how The Truman Show anticipated this, blurring boundaries between audience and subject—people feel they genuinely know and care about reality stars.

6. Control, Comfort, and Complicity

• The film’s critique goes beyond media, raising questions about safety, comfort, and the desire to retreat into curated worlds.
• Amy: “Every morning [Truman] goes to the magazine store and he buys a newspaper. He buys a magazine. And everything he’s being offered for sale is like...newspapers where the headline is always like, Seahaven is great...Travel’s really bad...Disasters could happen to you.” ([57:56])
• Paul connects this desire for control to contemporary chain restaurants and planned communities like Disney’s Celebration and the real-life town of Seaside, Florida, where the movie was filmed.

7. Literary and Philosophical Roots

• [38:05] Paul draws parallels to Plato’s Allegory of the Cave: “They would rather live in the comfort of what they know than the unknown. ... This movie does follow a lot of that.”
• Amy agrees, connecting The Truman Show to Peter Weir’s Dead Poets Society as stories about breaking free from control and becoming a free thinker ([36:43]).

8. Casting, Performance, and Character Layers

• [43:00] Full breakdown of Ed Harris’s Kristoff (originally Dennis Hopper), with anecdotes on the actor's approach and backstory.
• Amy: “I like how Ed Harris plays him…a combination of coldness and intellectualism, but also a little bit of a soul.”
• [48:16] Discussion of Marlon (Noah Emmerich), the complicated psychological toll on a character forced to live a lie for the sake of the show.

9. Manipulation, Media, and Consent

• [81:03] The ethics behind participants’ consent and the cost of living public, curated lives—for Truman, the actors around him, and by extension, the audience who consumes such stories.

10. Control vs. Authenticity: The Modern Take

• Paul and Amy explore how real people now seek out the Truman experience willingly—“People would want to be seen. People would want to be Truman now.” ([87:36])
• Amy considers whether there’ll be “a moment of the zeitgeist being very pro-privacy” as a backlash to ever-present cameras. ([91:05])

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Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Paul: “We accept the reality of the world with which we’re presented. It’s as simple as that.” (Kristoff quote, 39:22)
• Amy (on nostalgia and politics): “You’re a Make America Great Again guy, but you live in a place that was made to basically be the model of Make America Great Again. This is what you want it to look like.” ([71:51])
• Paul: “It’s easier to stay in the cave than go out, like my good friend Plato said.” ([74:42])
• Paul (on trauma and growth): “Trauma is the fire in which we are forged. That’s what makes us stronger. That’s what makes us better, and that’s how we become who we are.” ([55:08])
• Amy: “I love how Peter Weir stages this scene…Instead of putting the camera on Jim Carrey’s face, where he could do his big Oscar moment...He puts the camera just on Truman’s back. We don’t get to watch how he’s reacting. We just watch him absorb it.” ([76:45])
• Paul (on modern reality shows): “You are just a prop. You are a puppet. And that’s what you have to kind of agree to.” ([90:57])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [11:16–13:49]: The birth of reality TV and The Truman Show’s predictive elements.
• [15:38–19:36]: Script’s dark origins and Peter Weir’s transformation.
• [18:17]: Jim Carrey’s casting and approach to Truman.
• [27:39–29:38]: Did The Truman Show create mainstream reality TV?
• [38:05–41:35]: Plato’s Cave and philosophical underpinnings.
• [43:00–44:44]: Ed Harris’s backstory and performance as Kristoff.
• [48:16–53:15]: Marlon’s role and the supporting cast’s moral dilemmas.
• [57:56–62:49]: Subtle manipulation—comfort vs. agency, classic Americana, and existential fears.
• [65:13–68:12]: Real-life “perfect towns,” chain restaurants, and the psychology of comfort.
• [71:36–74:42]: Politics, nostalgia, and the draw of fake utopias.
• [76:01–77:18]: The film’s ending and Weir’s directorial choices.
• [87:36–88:46]: Voluntary surveillance, privacy, and the desire to be seen.
• [91:05–91:32]: The possibility of a pro-privacy zeitgeist.

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Final Reflections

• The Truman Show remains sharply relevant, both for its critiques of media manipulation and its broader questions about authenticity, surveillance, comfort, and control.
• The hosts agree that its staying power—unlike other films with similar themes—comes from a sophisticated balance of emotional and technical storytelling.
• Paul and Amy use the film as a springboard for personal anecdotes (Paul’s own hidden camera show, Amy’s feelings on constant surveillance), and for reflections on why this story continues to resonate in a culture increasingly obsessed with curated selves and ever-present cameras.

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What’s Next?

• Next episode: Total Recall (“My life is fake, my wife isn’t really my wife, and now I want to go shoot some things!” – Amy)
• Follow Unspooled on YouTube and join the Substack for deeper dives.

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This summary covers the essential themes, memorable moments, and episode flow, providing listeners (and non-listeners alike) with a clear, engaging understanding of Unspooled’s episode on The Truman Show.

Transcript

[Amy Nicholson]

Don't miss the Devil Wears Prada 2 in theaters.

[Paul Scheer]

Meryl Streep, Anne Hathaway, Emily Blunt and

[Amy Nicholson]

Stanley Tucci are back. In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility.

[Paul Scheer]

I did not hire you, and all

[Amy Nicholson]

I need to do is bide my time until you fail on May 1st. Icons. I'm going to make something of this job. Rain May the bridges I burn light my way forever. I just love my job.

[Paul Scheer]

Get tickets now. The Devil Wears Prada the second of in theaters May 1st directed by David Frankel. Radiopg 3 may be inappropriate for children under 13K.

[Amy Nicholson]

Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Trick's Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Paul Scheer]

It is an honor to share.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, it's our honor.

[Paul Scheer]

It is our larger honor.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

[Paul Scheer]

but and participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Amy Nicholson]

The year is 1998.

[Paul Scheer]

Good morning.

[Amy Nicholson]

Morning. Good morning.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, and in case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

[Amy Nicholson]

The movie the Truman Joe. Hello everyone, and welcome to Unspooled.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed EMS, we have

[Amy Nicholson]

covered the AFI top 100 and now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterboxd top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb top 250 and the New York Times 1000 essential films.

[Paul Scheer]

And we will be chasing our own curiosity too. I am Paul Scheer. I am an actor, writer and director and I have directed some hidden camera prank shows. And I will tell you, I identify with Ed Harris. It's a very powerful feeling to be behind that wall of monitors, making sure people are coming in and going at the same time. I was on a positive prank show and I feel like there's a lot of similarities there. Maybe. Maybe I am part of the problem.

[Amy Nicholson]

I am Avery Nicholson. I'm the film critic for the Los Angeles Times. I am wondering if you are of the problem that's terrifying. Like, one of my nightmares is that there could be a camera on me ever. I hate cameras. I lose my mind about cameras everywhere. I'm always yelling at Waymos and trying to be like, people, they are videotaping. You don't get in them. They were driving around the street just seeing what you're up to. I hate cameras.

[Paul Scheer]

This show that I did, it was back for the UPN network when that was still a thing, and it was based on a British show called Make My Day. So you didn't even know that cameras were in your house. Your friends would let us in to your home, and we would install cameras there while you were out at work so we could follow you from the moment you woke up till the end of the day when it was revealed that you were on a prank show. Now, the problem with the show was we weren't pranking people in a negative way. We were giving them the best day ever. So when we pulled the rug out at the end and said, hey, you're on a show where we gave you the best day ever. It felt like the worst prank. There was no relief. Like, it wasn't like, oh, my God, I'm not in, you know, a car with a crazy alcoholic. It was like, oh, no. Everything that you thought good was happening to you, that was all fake. It was a tricky balance. Never aired.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, my God.

[Paul Scheer]

Never aired. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, I am fascinated in this idea that we're definitely gonna get into this episode about how relentless positivity is the worst sort of torture.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, it really was. We shot eight full episodes, and at the end of the taping of it, the head of UPN at that time told us, we don't do positive prank shows. And instead, he opted to double down on a parody of American Idol, where they kept on pushing forward the worst singer. And then at the end, they revealed to the winner that they were actually the worst person in the competition, which was equally horrifying.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's awful.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. It was a really tricky look, Amy. It was my first job ever.

[Amy Nicholson]

I have to ask you something that I just really always want to know.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Don't the people fart on camera? And what do you do about that?

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, well, I will tell you a story not about farting, because we never heard a fart. Like, we didn't follow them into the bathroom. Like, there's no. And I guess we could be watching that, but I think there are certain laws that we abided by. But we had one episode where our mark got on a speedboat and was going out to Governor's island, which is, like, a little bit off of the island of Manhattan. And our actor, who was with him, I guess, had a hemorrhoid that burst and blood started coming out of his pants. And we were above the speedboat in a helicopter, and we could see the blood smears on all the white cushions of the speedboat.

[Amy Nicholson]

And.

[Paul Scheer]

And it still, to this day, was one of the most embarrassing things because he's bleeding out of his butt, and I don't know how you hide that. And it was all over the place. And we had to use the shot because we had a helicopter chasing a speedboat. So, yeah, that was pretty much the most shocking moment on that show.

[Amy Nicholson]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Rough one. Rough one.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay, secondary question. What about picking their nose?

[Paul Scheer]

Um, no. I mean, honestly, we weren't in the bathroom with them, but, I mean, I guess you could argue that if you woke up with, like, morning wood, if you're a dude, we would have saw that. I don't know. Like, wow. Like, there's also a lot of footage that we weren't watching live. It wasn't like the Truman show in the sense that it was all being fed into us like. Like Mr. Beast style. Like. Right. We would get the tapes back at the end of the day and then just pull the moments that we wanted. So we'd be fast forwarding and just be like, okay, here. This is him getting out of bed. Okay, this is that. But if it was embarrassing, it would have been passed around the office. And I only really remember the hemorrhoid.

[Amy Nicholson]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

Eight episodes. So not bad. You feel good that. Yeah. You might be picking your nose. You might be farting. Farting, by the way, rarely comes up on mics, I think. I mean, as somebody who's acted in front of the camera, you can smell it before you can hear it. Although I will say that I once was doing a live stage show where our piano player farted. And they did have the piano mic'd. And the way the piano was mic'd and where this gentleman's was on the same level. So when he farted, it went through the mic, and then it reverberated throughout the theater during one of our scenes, which was possibly one of the funniest things that have ever happened.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, thank you for answering my question. That is just the question I have every time I watch something like the Bachelorette. Oh, come on. It's just a lot of people are,

[Paul Scheer]

like, enormous problems in farting. I mean, I always think the smell. Like, we are so lucky that we don't smell reality tv. Reality tv. To me, like, when you look at Summer House. Oh, Summerhouse Drama. I can't get enough. But it's like the Morning after the party. I just feel like it's not a good spot. It's not a good spot. But I mean, obviously if we're talking about Truman show, then we gotta be thinking at one point, Truman, the character definitely masturbated. He had to have masturbated.

[Amy Nicholson]

And now I want to ask you, when we really get into this, would that have made this an even better movie? Would that have taken this 10 to a 10.1 or would it have dropped it down to a 9.99?

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, well, we will talk about it all because there apparently was a darker version of this film. But let's start at the beginning.

[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

The year is 1998, and no one involved in the Truman show has any, any idea how prescient it's going to be. It's a movie about this man named Truman Burbank. It's Jim Carrey, who doesn't know that he's starring in a reality show 24 hours a day since he was in the womb.

[Amy Nicholson]

And imagine, I mean, today we're in an era where, like, kids are born already having Instagram accounts. Their first picture is their sonogram. I have seen many of my friends before they were born. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. It's like, oh, congrats, here's a little baby coming out. Oh, they're coming. Here we go. But in 1998, this idea of constantly sharing your life is still, I think, pretty new, pretty strange. The real World does exist on mtv, but shows like Survivor, Big Brother, those are still two years away.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, I just want to point out something here because obviously if you're of a certain age, you remember this advent of reality television. And I remember when Survivor came out, it was the most like, oh my God, it felt like a dirty show. Like, how could they do this to human beings? Right? And now Survivor is like the grandfather, like the gold standard of reality. Right? That's how far we've come. Like, Survivor was, I think, pushing limits in a way that we had never seen before. And, you know, I was a huge fan of the Real World. And I feel like before people understood what reality TV was, that was the best experiment of it because you would have real conversations. I think you go back to Real World season one, you had these like, interesting conversations about race. You had Real World San Francisco where one character had aids. Like there's a lot of real stuff going on now. People just go on and get brand deals. But back in the day, there was a grittiness to it, like a real veritane nature to it that I think has been co opted and completely blown out.

[Amy Nicholson]

Now, I know it's almost like we're back doing our episode on Reality Bites. But that is true. Like the very first cast of the very first Real World in New York, I think they felt this obligation to be like, okay, we're a handful of very different people. Let's hash it out. Let's talk about the problems of the world. Let's like pick a presidential candidate that we want to root for.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

And yeah, I loved that. Like they were treating it as though it was a social experiment. And I think you hear the phrase social experiment thrown around. I think even on Love is Blind, like this is a social experiment. We're just seeing if you could fall in love that way. That's definitely what the social experiment of it. But I think they meant it in the Real World at least one.

[Paul Scheer]

And I think that unfortunately what has happened is reality TV sometimes is more interesting than anything you could possibly script. I find that with watching a documentary, these characters are real. So when they're real and making these decisions, there's an investment that you take or a real strong opinion that you have about them that I don't think you could ever fully have about a character that is written. I think that they're very different experiences. But again, going back to a couple weeks ago with the drama around the Summer House, cheating scandal and hiding this romance, people are bent out of shape about It, I was talking to a friend who was in a writer's room yesterday. He's like, we can't break the next episode because everyone is talking about it. Because it's also this like parasocial relationship. You feel like, you know, these people. This show has been on the air for 10 years. We now are in this world where reality shows are on for 10 plus years. We know these characters, Sandoval, all that sort of stuff. You know, we, we followed these people and we feel a connection to them. Which is why I think this script is so interesting. Because it was even before any of this stuff, right? We already said it was two years before Survivor and Big Brother. This script older than that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, but it gets that idea. I mean this is a movie where the people who are the fans of the Truman show, the times we get to see them out in their little cubicle lives, working in the garage, they have fan pictures of their favorite minor characters. Oh, I love the neighbor framed on their wall. I mean that is the attachment, the parasocial love. It's just what we didn't know in 1998 was that we would vent it. Not through buying photographs of people and putting them on their wall, but through just yelling about them on the Internet and getting mad at people all the

[Paul Scheer]

time or buying cameos from them. Now the original script, like we mentioned, is written by Andrew Niccol, who wrote Agattaca and Simone. And it's a spec script that he had in 1991, which is the year that the real world started. And he calls it the Malcolm show. And it is very dark. Maybe this is one of the versions that does have masturbation in it. I feel like it had to.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, I think it had some bad stuff. I mean his version of this script, the first one, Malcolm, that's the TV star who doesn't know that he's on tv. He lives in a fake version of New York City that is just riddled with danger and crime. Malcolm is an alcoholic, he is cheating on his wife with a sex worker. Everybody in the world knows that his deep dark secret is just out there. He doesn't know that, but they all know that. Cuz they're watching him cheat on his wife on television.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that idea. I mean that I, I mean, can we remake that now?

[Amy Nicholson]

We're living it, man.

[Paul Scheer]

Now that script does get sold for a million dollars. The director Brian DePalma.

[Amy Nicholson]

A million dollars?

[Paul Scheer]

A million back in 1991. That's a lot of money for a script. Now the director Brian De Palma considers doing it. I mean, he can do sleaze and voyeurism and, um. But he's kind of on the fence, Right. So it gets passed around to people like Tim Burton and Sam Raimi, which are interesting and odd choices. I don't feel like it totally captures what this movie could be. But then it goes to Terry Gilliam, and after we talked about Brazil, I could see that really clearly. And then people like David Cronenberg talk about it, and Barry Sonnenfeld is brought in, so.

[Amy Nicholson]

And of course, the man who's been attached to, like, a bazillion projects.

[Paul Scheer]

But I'm up Steven Spielberg.

[Amy Nicholson]

Steven Spielberg.

[Paul Scheer]

That's right. Whenever multiple directors are attached, so is he. Now, I will say, I could see Spielberg doing a version of this film. I could see it, and it'd be interesting. I feel like the Truman show that we got is actually closer to the Spielberg version of it, which is interesting to me. Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I actually can see that. And suddenly as we're talking, I'm thinking, now I want to do AI by Spielberg. But that's another point.

[Paul Scheer]

Ooh, that's a whole. That's a jump.

[Amy Nicholson]

We'll talk about that.

[Paul Scheer]

But none of those people. Direct goes to Peter Weir in 1995, and Peter Weir has made it known he wants to do something challenging. He says, like, I'm looking for trouble. Send me your broken scripts.

[Amy Nicholson]

And he gets this script, and Peter Weir says, it was like trying to pick up a hedgehog. And it was bristling with metaphors. Imagine I'm saying that. But I'm Peter Weir and I have an Australian accent, which I will.

[Paul Scheer]

I like it. And I did it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Try to torture Peter.

[Paul Scheer]

Now he takes in the darkness, and he goes, all right, this is too dark. Again in an Australian accent. He's like, this is too dark. And he has this idea. Let's get Jim Carrey, who is fresh from his breakout of doing Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber, and I guess maybe less notably of all those Batman Forever. And Carrey is in this moment where he wants to do something different. He is looking for trouble. He wants to do something dramatic, and he loves that. Peter Weir turned Robin Williams into a serious actor with Dead Poets Society. Again, this is the second time we're doing Weir.

[Amy Nicholson]

We're getting weird.

[Paul Scheer]

But as much as Jim Carrey wants to do it, he can't. But because he's too busy making the Cable Guy. And Weir's like, okay, I'll wait. And while I wait, Andrew Nicol and I are gonna make this script more cheerful. If I looked at it as a movie, I thought it had to be light where he had it dark. I wanted to make it real, not science fiction. I wanted to make it just the near future, if you like. Which, of course, it turned out to be. Not that we knew that. And to do that, I thought, well, why would people watch it 24 7? It has to be not depressing, which it would be. It has to be kind of enlivening.

[Amy Nicholson]

And they do. They move the television show from gloomy New York City to this happy, tiny coastal front suburb they surround. Jim Carrey's Malcolm. He's now named Truman with these cartoonish, happy, smiling people. His wife Meryl, his best friend, Marlon, his mother. They're played by Laura Linney, Noah Emmerich, and Holland Taylor. There's also a director and a tech guy that's Ed Harris and Paul Giamatti, and an extra named Sylvia that Truman falls in love with and she gets fired from the show. She is played by Natasha McElhoff.

[Paul Scheer]

I do think it's interesting that Peter Weir, his big contribution to this script is kind of making it a 1950s Americana. I mean, that's really what he does. It doesn't represent the now of now. It's kind of like if the 50s never really changed. Right. It's. It's obviously in the 90s, but it's also this, like, leave it to Beaver world.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I think what Weir thinks in his head is I should also be interested in who wants to watch the show and why. And it seems like he made the decision that people wanted to watch comfort food, happy food. They wanted to watch people being in a good mood and a nice guy being nice. And I think that was a smart choice. I mean, the reason why I wanted to do the Truman show is because the second season of jury duty, it's wrapping up. And I was thinking about the attraction to watching just a good person try to do good things and try to be the best version of themselves in a world that's a little bit weird, but everybody's ultimately trying. Right. It just. It feels comforting to know that this is how the world could be, too. And it's not just people on the Bachelorette getting drunk and screaming.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, company retreat is very much, you know, especially this season, very much a Truman show because they are living with this character for seven days or about that period of time. And I was talking to some of the actors on the show, and, you know, they couldn't just clock out they had to hang out, quote unquote, like, after hours. Right. And that's interesting. And they had all these different rules, which I don't know if I can break for them. So I will just stay back and say it was very much all being controlled, but there are times where nothing was supposed to be happening. So nothing did happen. Yeah. And that's kind of fascinating, too. And as you know, or if you've watched it, they don't have cameras in the Marks bedroom. Right. So there is a little bit of privacy there as well. But they also don't have their cell phones, so you can't really connect to the outside world. Anyway, let's focus on Truman's show and say that it got there and it took a long time to get there because it took 12 drafts and three years to. But finally, the Truman show is released on June 5, 1998. That's seven years after the first script was written. And it's just in time to be a little early.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And it is also a big hit, though. It costs $60 million. It makes $264 million. And Jim Carrey wins the Golden Globe for Best Dramatic Actor.

[Paul Scheer]

It's going to be so hard to talk out of my ass after this, But I'll manage.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'll manage. Oh, what a shocker.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, if you look back at some of my earlier dramatic work in films like Earth Girls Are Easy and Once Bitten, you might have seen this coming. But what I really wasn't expecting it. And boy, you know what this means, don't you? I'm a shoo in for the Blockbuster Award. That's right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, yeah. But alas, just like how Adam Sandler got shut out for Uncut Gems. We also recently did an episode on that as well as his Poet Society. He gets snubbed by the Oscars. They only nominate instead Truman show for Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor for Ed Harris. And they lose all of those because this is that really intense Oscar year where Saving Private Ryan and Shakespeare in Love are just going hit head to

[Paul Scheer]

head, which we did two episodes on that, too, I believe. We definitely did Shakespeare in Love.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, we have done both of those. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, I think it's interesting because it feels like back in that time, you were penalized. Like, people didn't want to take Jim Carrey seriously. Like, oh, well, it's a fluke that he's good in this. Right? Like, that's kind of the mentality behind it. He's very good. He has a lot to do in it. Um, and I think what's brilliant about the script and brilliant about the casting is that Peter Weir is playing on all the things that we love about Jim Carrey, but also giving Jim Carrey this Runway to do something incredibly different. And I think something that he did fantastically well in Cable Guy. I want to talk about a movie that we should do on the show. I would love to do Cable Guy, one of my all time faves.

[Amy Nicholson]

Really? I've never seen Cable Guy.

[Paul Scheer]

What? Oh, Ben Stiller directing. Great, great movie. Wow. Great movie.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, listen, you know that I love my Ben Stiller directing. Yeah, I just got really excited because I saw that on the letterbox. Top 250 films with the most fans. They have a movie that I thought you and I were the only people of the member of. Of the fan club of. They actually have the Ben Stiller version of the Secret Life of Walter Mitty. People love that too.

[Paul Scheer]

I love it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Great.

[Paul Scheer]

That movie definitely has gotten a lot more traction as it's left the public consciousness. Like, I feel like people find it go, oh, how come I didn't know about this? And I think it's probably a lot about advertising at the time. Like people went in probably expecting something very different than what it was. I know the first time I saw it, I think I saw it at a friends and family screening. I thought it was gonna be a lot more like the Danny Kaye version. And I was really taken in by what it was, which is a lot darker and more interesting than that.

[Amy Nicholson]

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[Paul Scheer]

But now, let me ask you this. Before we even get started, Is this a symptom of, you know, what came first? The chicken or the egg? Because I believe that the tremendous success of this film opened up the floodgates for mainstream networks. Cause you gotta remember, MTV was not mainstream. You know, it became mainstream, but Real world was not like a mainstream show. But Survivor, Big Brother. These ideas, I think, were greenlit because of the success of this movie. I believe that this created the future that we are living in. I'm not saying that wouldn't have happened, but it happened earlier because of it.

[Amy Nicholson]

Really.

[Paul Scheer]

I do. I mean, because think of it, right? You watch this movie and you go, oh, my God, I would kind of wanna watch that, right? There's a part of you that is engaged by it. It is tapping into something in our public consciousness. But I could see, you know, in this movie, like you said, makes 264 million DOL dollars, people are like, yeah. So all of a sudden you go, what if it's the Truman Show? But they're all trapped on an island. This Truman show meets Gilligan's island. Yeah, let me watch it, right? I mean, that's the pitch. And maybe there are a bunch of these sitting on people's desks. But the way that we've gamified and the way that we kind of start to blow out the premise, it's very different. Reality TV becomes very different from the real world very quickly. Yeah, sure, the real world is there, but I don't think it was. I don't think that the. That it was hitting Mainstream America the same way that this movie did. And I think that this movie opened up our acceptance to reality as a primetime genre network format.

[Amy Nicholson]

But this movie also says it's terrible

[Paul Scheer]

and we don't care about that. We're idiots.

[Amy Nicholson]

And the shows that also came to exist are totally different than the troop. They're all so mean for the most part. Okay, I mean, you are right, but

[Paul Scheer]

you know what I'm saying.

[Amy Nicholson]

They did try to do, I think, a Trumanish version of this. Like there was Joe Schmo show. Yeah, the Joe Schmo show where Joe did not know that he was in a reality show where he was actually the star of this. And it was like everybody's in a house, they're competing. What I love is talk about actors getting cast and launching their careers off reality show of all things. Kristen Wiig was on the Joe Smo show as like one of the girls who lived in the house. This is her actually in one of the Survivor ish competitionist moments, voting for his competition and breaking his heart.

[Paul Scheer]

This could be the deciding vote unless there's a three way tie. So we'll have to see Dr. Pat.

[Amy Nicholson]

I feel like the person that I voted for is the most real. The person who has been not only true to himself, but true to all of us and deserves this the most. And also who gave me three consecutive orgasms. I'd like to vote for the Hutch. Hutch.

[Paul Scheer]

You're the winner.

[Amy Nicholson]

She is incredible. And then of course, that's like the season finale where it's building up to the moment where Joe finds out that this entire show is fake and has a complete meltdown. I think he handles it pretty well.

[Paul Scheer]

Are you an actor, dude? Are you an actor? Are you an actor? Everything. I changed my life.

[Amy Nicholson]

Are you an actor?

[Paul Scheer]

Tell me.

[Amy Nicholson]

Just say it. I am.

[Paul Scheer]

Someone fill me in. And you know, Amy, I do want to just acknowledge the Joe Schmo show. I watched it, it was fascinating. But you know, if we're gonna even go back to the genesis of the idea of the prank or the idea of hitting camera, I think we have to thank Alan Funt. Right? You know, he was doing this back on the radio. There's two gentlemen who also out of San Francisco. I can't remember their names, but they were two amazing prank people as well, who would interview people on the street like they were newspaper men, you know, getting reactions to stories. And I think that we've always had a fascination with this idea of like catching people or hearing what people really think. This like this social experiment. Right. We like. Again, that term is back up. But I do wanna just say that while the new format of this is like a longer form living in a house, it all goes back to the original thing of what would you say or do when you didn't think people were watching? And, I mean, it's funny, I haven't never watched it, but did you ever watch An American Family, which was like a. Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, I haven't watched it, but I did read Emily Nussbaum's really great book on the history of reality tv, which is named after a line that we hear in this movie. Cue the sun. What time is it? It's way too early for that.

[Paul Scheer]

Open it up. Cue the sun. I love that moment. Which was actually done practically, by the way. But, yeah, so I do think that, like, this is. It's just. It is capturing this thing that we want to know, you know, what are people really thinking? And what are people really thinking about me? I think that that's part of the idea of why this movie works and why we've been obsessed with this, because it's very navel gazy, in a way. And, you know, now the idea of, like, the Truman show, it's even like a psychological diagnosis. People who think that they are like. Well, now, I mean, my sons call it main character syndro. Like where you think everybody is, you know, revolving around you.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I mean, that is definitely a thing. Like, people started showing up in, I think, the early 2000s saying that they were convinced that they were being recorded by cameras all the time, that everyone was acting fake around them and that nothing in their life was real. I mean, when you hear Jim Carrey's character in this describe what he think is happening. He does sound like he's having a psychotic break.

[Paul Scheer]

We will see a lady on a red bike followed by a man with flowers and a Volkswagen Beetle with a dented fender.

[Amy Nicholson]

Truman, please look,

[Paul Scheer]

Lady.

[Amy Nicholson]

Flowers and Truman. This is. There it is. There it is.

[Paul Scheer]

There's the.

[Amy Nicholson]

Did it Beetle.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I gotta say, I disagree with you, though. I don't think that the Truman show, as the Truman show is conceived of in this movie, really wants to know what anybody is thinking in their head. I think they want that comfort food. I think they want to control his world so that he comforts us and not we ever get to know him. I mean, there's that line in here. Nothing is fake. It's merely controlled. I think they're raising him in this fish tank to try to make Him, Somebody that makes the audience just feel good about humanity.

[Paul Scheer]

I guess I'm saying the reason why people are continuing to watch is, yes, it's comfort food because it's allowing you to watch somebody else, and you get to play act how you would act in those situations. I don't know. That, to me, I think, is a part of what we love about reality tv. Yes, it's not hard. That's the reason why we are watching reality tv. That's why Bravo is gigantic. It's not. It is comfort food. But we're like, oh, if I was in that situation, I might do that. That's not a heavy lift. It's kind of nice because you're removed from having to deal with that. In my mind, maybe we're just splitting hairs, but I do feel like the reason why Bravo and reality TV is giant, even Love is Blind is because it's comforting and it makes you think, but it doesn't make you uncomfortable about thinking, oh, man.

[Amy Nicholson]

See, this is why I can't watch something like, Love is Blind is because I get too into it, right? And I'm like, who is that person? What is their entire life? And I just. I think too much, and I'm on Reddit boards. It's awful. So I cannot watch these things. But I think the real. I think that the movie itself, the Truman show, though, it's not even thinking about all of that yet. Like, I think, in a way, I think Peter Weir is making kind of a spiritual sequel to Dead Poet Society, because Dead Poet Society is a movie about, like, people are trying to control your brain and how you think, and you deserve the right to be a free thinker. Right?

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

Where Robin Williams comes into this school where all of the boys are controlled. They're taught that, like, this is the canon and this is what you're supposed to learn, and this is what matters. And this is how you think, and this is how you write, and this is how you behave, and you're all gonna be the future leaders of the world. And he's like, think of yourself. Be free. Be weird. Be messy. And people lose their minds, and he gets fired, and all hell breaks loose. I think the Truman show is exactly about that. Like, that Truman is essentially the student living in this controlled world, and he doesn't know that he doesn't have the right to think freely yet. And he's trying to discover that for himself. I mean, I was even thinking there's scenes in here where, because it's this 50s aesthetic, he kind of even Looks like Robert, Shawn and Leonard towards the end of it when he's in that fisherman sweater and his brown hair is all messy. I'm like, oh, it's the same heroic thing I am facing. My willingness that I will die in order to feel like I can live free.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I guess the idea that maybe Peter Weir is bringing forward from Dead Poets is like, think for yourself. Question everything. Don't just take everybody at face value.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Like, I almost think to the Truman show, the future we're living in is so hard to imagine that they're almost not even criticizing that. They're just criticizing the mind control that's happening inside of the bubble.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, like, then, Amy, let's talk about the original reality show or the original idea behind this, which is Plato's the Cave. Right. So if you are not familiar with Plato's the Cave, I can't believe you're

[Amy Nicholson]

putting your monocle on. Go ahead.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, this is. All right, so there are these prisoners that are chained in a cave, and they're only able to see shadows on a wall cast by objects behind them, and they mistake those shadows for reality. Right. And one prisoner is freed and stumbles toward the fire and then outside, and then slowly realizes that everything that he thought was real was just a projection. And when he returns to tell the others, they don't believe him and they would rather keep on watching the shadows. Right. They. They would rather live in the comfort of what they know than the unknown. And I think that this movie does follow a lot of that. Right. It's like the dad coming back in, you know, Natasha McGlone, you know, trying to reveal this stuff to him. Right? Like, this is. And we see Truman wrestling with this

[Amy Nicholson]

line kind of like that. Like, here, Kristof, let me ask you, why do you think that Truman has never come close to discovering the true

[Paul Scheer]

nature of his world until now? We accept the reality of the world with which we're presented. It's as simple as that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I think that line is really scary because there's so much that we accept, even just how things should be in this world, because it's just how it is, and it's hard to imagine changing them.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, and I think there's a part of this, too, where, you know, if you act on your own impulses, if you go away from the status quo, you are risking losing all the things that are the most important to you. You know, family and safety. And I think in this movie, like you said, he sounds insane, and it's sanity, too. Right. And I think that then the movie goes out, and this is where I feel like I want to examine what you're talking about. Cause you're saying, oh, people want this for comfort food. But at the end of the movie is really, to you, the audience going, like you. The audience are also prisoners to this tv. You gotta turn this off. And you gotta live your own life.

[Amy Nicholson]

There's people who are living basically all the time, 24 7, in a Truman show bar, a bar that's only about the Truman Show. And you go there. I guess it's nice that you go there to watch TV with people and

[Paul Scheer]

it's sports, but they're all watching it when they're cheering together. But. But there's a part of me that feels like that's what. Like this social media thing, you know, Social media thing. But, I mean, you could make a correlation to that social media thing.

[Amy Nicholson]

You have to take your monocle off now, put on some bifocals.

[Paul Scheer]

But, you know, but I do think that that is. I think that there's something really interesting here. Cause I like going back to Plato, and I would never reference Plato normally, but in my research, we've done a

[Amy Nicholson]

million episodes, and you have never actually.

[Paul Scheer]

Plato never did. Please go on.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love this.

[Paul Scheer]

But, you know, but there's a part of me that goes like, oh, wow. So this is something, you know. Cause people are like, oh, social media is bad. Oh, video games are bad. Oh, music is bad. Right. You know, oh, color is bad. Whatever it is. Like, whatever is new is bad. And I think what new things do often is disrupt our reality or the way that we view reality.

[Amy Nicholson]

And, yeah, Jim Carrey is a serious actor. That destroys my reality. I need to get used to the idea.

[Paul Scheer]

But we're going back to the time of Plato. Right?

[Amy Nicholson]

So I was drinking a cappuccino every time he said the word Plato.

[Paul Scheer]

I apologize to you, the audience, and to you, Amy. But I do think that that's interesting. It's like, I think that we're so caught up in our own modern times. Like, well, no one else had to deal with something like this. And we're literally talking about a text to. That was about, like, fire and cave shadows, right? Like. Like, we are always. There's a. I think, an inherent fear to leave the tribe, to leave a point of view, to be independent. So I agree with you 100% that this is a continuation of that same idea in Dead Poets Society, like, break free from the world, which I think is a good underlying thing. But I also think it even goes out further. It's like in Dead Poets aside, he's affecting that class. This is how we all are complicit in it. There's so many levels of complicity. And I also think, I know I said in the beginning, I feel for Ed Harris character. I don't think that Ed Harris character is inherently bad.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, I mean, in fact, Peter Weir kind of came up with this whole backstory of who he is and how he got here.

[Paul Scheer]

I did things like I wrote a background to Christoph. I said to Andrew, do you mind? I'm gonna really invent this guy's background for myself. And so I wrote a 10 page piece about him and where he came from and documentary background. And, you know, he'd won an Academy Award for a piece he'd done on the homeless in which he'd put some cameras in a kind of crash pad and, you know, filmed homeless people. And that, you know, made it plausible. And initially, the Truman show was only to be about a baby. And they were going to do one year of its life, which seemed more logical, and sell baby products. So they only built a nursery and they hired a mum. And, you know, you would see the kind of products for sale there, you know, the powders and oils and things for the baby and baby food. It was so successful, they decided to add a father to it. So they built a garage. And so the father could come and go from the nursery to the grand garage, and in there would be, you know, his car and the rakes and tools and, you know. And so they developed a little husband and wife story going and went for another year. And then Christoph presented them with the big plan, which was to go from cradle to grave a whole life and build not just a house, but a town. And then I, you know, I went to the details of how he raised finance. You know, I had advisors telling me how you would do this and, and get money from here. The Japanese love the idea right off. And, you know, so I was making it plausible for myself.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I like how Ed Harris plays him, actually. I like the beret, I like the wire frame glasses. I mean, originally this role was supposed to be played by, I believe, Dennis Hopper.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Amy Nicholson]

And I think they did a couple days and were like, no. And it seems very vague as to what went wrong. But I like how Ed Harris does this. Cause I think he has that kind of combination of coldness and intellectualism, but also a tiny bit of a soul. Like when he says to Truman, I've been watching you since you were born. I do feel like he loves him, but he is also willing to let him die. I think he's kind of just playing this like God, right? I'm coming down from the mountains, from the sun, from the sky. I can control the weather. Behave or don't. If you don't behave, I might kill you.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, you know, this is something I just wanted just to bring up the Dennis Hopper of it all, which I think is really interesting. I've heard this, I can't talk about who said it, but a very famous actor was being courted for a part and a very famous director wanted him to be in it. And this director told me the story one on one, so I know this is a true story. And the actor said, I see this part in a very specific way. I'm gonna make a choice and if you don't like it, you can't fire me. And I'm not gonna tell you what that choice is until I do it on set. And I always thought that was such an interesting thing. It's like, I have a choice, I'm not gonna tell you. And you can't fire me if you don't like it. That's a very tough position to put a director in. This director said no. Peter Weir said yes to those same exact parameters that Dennis Hopper gave him. I have a choice. I am going to do it.

[Amy Nicholson]

And

[Paul Scheer]

they didn't like it. They just didn't like what he was, I guess he was not collaborative, you know, it was just sort of, you know, he had done a very researched idea of what it was and it just didn't work. And I could see it as kind of. And I hate to be assuming, but I'm going to. It could be in a way more fanciful, more Willy Wonka, more that character in Apocalypse Now. And I think that the staid nature of Ed Harris, like that kind of guiding force, like a really, like a father figure, is more important because I don't think you want a showman. I don't think you want like a P.T. barnum here. I think that that actually wrecks what the movie is or makes it less special, makes it more spectacle.

[Amy Nicholson]

I think that the film does not think that he's a good guy at all. You know, like, I mean, there's even that moment where he is getting phone calls as he's doing like one of his rare TV interviews on air. And a caller comes and it's like the Hague for Kristoff. He's like, yeah, yeah, uh huh. The Hague Is definitely coming for Kristoff and some other people. But I also. Yeah, I think that Lear has the empathy to feel like, you can't just watch this guy for 30 years. Give 30 years of your life. How young was Kristoff when this show started? My goodness, he must have been a baby himself and not care about him a little bit, which is. I mean, to me, the horror of the Truman show comes in the supporting characters who are just around Truman, who have to have lived with him their entire lives, Particularly his best friend, Marlon, you know, the actor played by Noah Emmerich. I mean, this is a guy who was assigned as a young kid to be this kid's best friend from when he was seven. And he has grown up on TV his whole life. And, I mean, what even is that mentally like? I found an interview with Marlon where he was talking about it here.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, I created my own personal sort of backstory on Lewis, on this kid who obviously, he'd been on the show, on the Truman show in the movie for his whole life with Truman grown up together. So you have to imagine that this kid had some very pushy stage mother who was willing to sell her son into this unreality, you know, and sacrifice his childhood for the sake of becoming a television personality. So there's that element to this guy, who was an aspiring child actor. Then there's the other reality, which was that he actually did grow up with Truman on the trail Truman show, and they became best friends. That was an authentic, I think, real relationship, because when you're 8 years old, you're not faking your best friend. And sort of, you know, the notion that you're with someone all your life that you can't actually share this secret with, must have been very, very difficult for Lewis, you know, to have this burden as a child. So I think that creates a very interesting sort of almost psychotic split in this character who has to be false perpetually to the person who is authentically probably his best friend in the world. And then he, of course, grows up and realizes he's this famous actor. But it's all predicated upon this very deep and profound betrayal, false life that I think must have made him a very complicated man. You know, it's interesting because I also guess, like, at a certain point, it goes away because, like, it's not that Marlon could actually have a real life. Right. You cut to moments in this film where you see, like, a crew or lights or, you know, you see a little bit of the backstage production of it, but the truth Is to live in this world and live in this town. Like, maybe he gets a week off a year when he goes on vacation or does something like that. But he's not.

[Amy Nicholson]

I have pneumonia. I'll be gone.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, but, like, where is he going? He's not been in enough. Like, it's almost like the. They're all trapped there. And, yes, they are under different ideas of what that is. But what is your life like? Are you faking being his best friend since seven, or is it just now part of you? I think that that's one of the things that the movie kind of wrestles with, is, like, yeah, they go to bed, but I would imagine. So does Marlon. Like, you know, like, yeah, he's gotta

[Amy Nicholson]

be there in case something happens, right? Like, yes. And I think that adds just such this wrenching dimension to a scene where, you know, Truman is starting to have a breakdown. He's like, I really think that something's weird is happening in this world. And Marlon, his whole job is just to kind of show up with six packs of beer, sell the beer to the camera, and try to convince him to stay, to try to convince him, hey, everything's fine. You have a great job. You know, we're just having a good time. Like, try to talk him down from leaving the whole time. Try to be like his. If he's not P.T. barnum, he's the guy with the keys to the elephant cage being like, you gotta stay in here. You know? Don't you ever get antsy? Itchy feet?

[Paul Scheer]

Where's her to go?

[Amy Nicholson]

Fiji.

[Paul Scheer]

Where the hell is Fiji? Near Florida. See here? Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

This is us.

[Paul Scheer]

And all the way around here, peachy. You can't get any further away before you start coming back.

[Amy Nicholson]

And so there you hear him when he's happy doing his job or he thinks it's working out, but when it gets harder towards the end, that scene where they're, like, sitting facing the waterfront at night and stuff is very close to going sideways, that is heartbreaking because you can't tell as you're listening to him if he's being sincere, if he's lying. You realize he's getting lines in from an earpiece. It's just devastating.

[Paul Scheer]

You're the closest thing I ever had to a brother, Truman. I know other things haven't really worked out for either of us like we used to dream they would. I know that feeling when it's like everything's slipping away and you don't want to believe it, so you look for answers somewhere else. But, Well, but, well, the point is, I'd gladly walk in front of traffic for you. Well, point is, I would gladly step in front of traffic for you, Truman.

[Amy Nicholson]

And the last thing I'd ever do is lie to you.

[Paul Scheer]

And the last thing that I would ever do is lie to you.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, how do you feel about this guy? Like, where is he to you on the villain scale?

[Paul Scheer]

I don't know how much control this person has. He's been doing it since he's seven. And I think that there's something really magical about this part by Ed Harris, which is. It's the dad. Right? Like, if I could control. I don't want to control my son's friends. But if I had the ability to be there and lift his spirits, get him to a place, not have him go through things that are painful. But that's life, obviously, and that's why I wouldn't want to do it. But if I had that ability, that's what you kind of feel Ed Harris is doing. He is, yes. He's the puppet master, but I think not in an attempt to get ratings, in an attempt to kind of protect his son, his creation. Right. This idea of a director having to guide his film, which is Truman, to this finish line, and there's no end, I think.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. There was an idea that Ed Harris pitched to him where he would play Kristoff as a guy who had a birth defect. He said that Kristoff should have a big hunchback that made him get teased a lot as a child, that he had a miserable childhood. And so having suffered as a child, he wants to create somebody who doesn't have to suffer.

[Paul Scheer]

I love that idea, but I think you like. And that's where I feel like you don't even need to go that deep. Because I think anyone who is. Who has been in that position, and I just say it from the protecting children point of view. Right. I think it's. Yeah, I get it. I'm there. Like, I feel it. Like, yeah, but you have that choice.

[Amy Nicholson]

But, you know, people get hurt.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, and that's part of it, too. That's how we become. You know, I always say, when I was touring around with my book, I would always say, you know, trauma is the fire in which we are forged. That's what makes us stronger. That's what makes us better, and that's how we become who we are. It doesn't matter what your trauma is, but that is the obstacles in our lives are the things that actually propel us forward or keep us Held back.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. The worst thing that happens to you is the worst thing that happens to you. Even if somebody else's worst thing is worse, it's still your worst, and it shapes you.

[Paul Scheer]

And, you know, and I feel like, I don't know, this is what is interesting about, you know, these movies in general, because I have to think that, like, Peter Weir is looking at this as a director. Like, what would he be doing as a director in this? Like, you know, this is, you know, you have to look at it like, you know, and all the care that you take to, you know, cast your movie the right way, get it out, get it, you know, released, and make sure you don't. Nothing is harmed from what you wanted to say, like, really committing and caring for it. That's, I think, such a. An interesting story for a director to tell. And as we always talk about, it's always about the director's point of view as well. Like, you know, how am I a director? And I think that this movie, it's right there.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, I suppose any director could have these same quibbles, like, have I made an actor feel so upset that they cried so that I could put their tears on screen and am I a terrible person for that?

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

And, yeah, that kind of threading of the needle between, like, even on the simplest level, some actors take apart just because they identify with it. So are we watching them completely as the character, or are we watching 80% of the character? Are we watching 20% them thinking about something awful that happened to them that was a lot like this? You know, it is blurry.

[Paul Scheer]

And I believe that when you look at this movie, you can probably even go further out in saying, like, are we protecting our partners? Are we protecting our children? Are we protecting them too much? Maybe this movie is just saying, like, we need to release a little bit, because that's the biggest part of living a really fulfilling life is letting mistakes happen. And, yes, this is the heightened version of it. And I think that the reason why Jim Carrey is such a great pick is because he is childlike. He is, like, so happy. Go lucky. So you're actually watching someone who looks and acts like a child have this realization, like, he's having his puberty on camera, Mental puberty.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, he is. And I think that in a way, he is so sincere, like, he can do that gigantic smile. I think he does mean saying hi to his neighbors with the gusto that he has. But what terrifies me is just seeing how subconsciously the world around him is shaping his thoughts, I think, like, maybe there's something just in the mood that I'm in right now where what I was just drilling into was that every morning he goes to the magazine store and he buys a newspaper. He buys a magazine. And everything he's being offered for sale is like, dog. Fancy country living, magazines about cars, newspapers where the headline is always like, seahaven is great. Everyone loves Seahaven. Oh, you shouldn't travel. Travel's really bad. You know, Disasters could happen to you. I was thinking a lot watching this movie about bullying for Caliban, the Michael Moore documentary about just how the national mood is controlled by the news. Why are we more scared today than we used to be back in the 70s when more people were getting murdered on the street? You know, why are we being told to be afraid of certain things and also that certain things are fine and just being distracted and not being told the truth of stuff, you know, Like, I'm really fascinated, even getting back to the whole childhood of it all, that kids today aren't allowed the same freedom to run around on the streets and get into trouble.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

And, like, why? You know?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, I mean, the amount of stuff that I did, you know, I mean, part of it is, like, maybe that's a point of view that we have because we're in Los Angeles. I mean, I think kids maybe in different parts of the country are able to do that.

[Amy Nicholson]

I hope so. Maybe I just find newspaper articles that make me mad. But it's like parents arrested for letting their kids walk to the park. I'm like, what? What are you talking about? It's hard for me to understand, but I think it's because we assume the world is more dangerous than it is. But I think it's because we're watching news that tells us that it is.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I also think that this movie is really interestingly structured because it's doing two things at once. Right. We're watching this movie that is about, oh, my God, can you imagine if you were in this reality show or watching this reality show, how would they do it? Right? So there's a lot of technical fun of this movie. Just like, oh, they're coming in. They're being cute.

[Amy Nicholson]

But the movie, really, all the camera shots where you're, like, inside of a button or watching through a briefcase, all the framing, it's really cool. It doesn't feel like it ever forgets and cheats and has a shot that doesn't feel like it could be coming from a secret camera.

[Paul Scheer]

And what I kind of love about the movie is that it kind of follows two separate tracks. The end of act one has a. Like a inner emotional kind of a climax. Right. And then you also have, like, the technical issues. And I think that that's what's really interesting in the entire film is that they're running these two stories, so. Cause you could see this movie just as somebody figuring out that his life is a lie, that this is a technical. Like, it's like Noises off or something like that, where the whole thing starts to fall apart around him. But they really are seeding the emotional breakdown. And I think that that, to me, is actually the. I mean, is the part that makes this a classic film. Right. It's sunny, it's cheery. And we probably would have liked it if it was just like, oh, my gosh, this is the day the reality show goes off the rails. And they realize it, but it's so beaten into. The emotional part of it is beaten into you in such a way that I feel like that's the staying power of this movie. Cause it's the darker part of the movie. And I feel like that's the part from the original script that they did bring over, even though they sanded the edges of it. But that emotional thing is really dark.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Or even the fact that you realize that, you know, they fake this boat accident to make him terrified to leave, and then they keep the sunken boat right by the pier. So every time he walks to the pier, he gets scared. Like, that is torture. That is incredibly psychologically cruel. But then, even beyond that, I mean, honestly, the way that he's living his life and the things that are holding him back are actually incredibly relatable to all of us. Like, hey, I feel like we should go on a trip. I'd like to go somewhere. And his wife discouraging him by being like, well, but don't we have this other stuff that we should be doing instead? We've got other things we should spend money on. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, here I figured we can scrape together 8,000. Every time you and Marlon get together,

[Paul Scheer]

we can bum around the world for each.

[Amy Nicholson]

And then what, Truman? We'd be where we were five years ago. You're talking like a teenager.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, maybe I feel like a teenager.

[Amy Nicholson]

We have mortgage payments, Truman. We have car payments. What, we're just gonna walk away from our financial obligations? Adventure. I thought we were gonna try for a baby. Isn't that enough of an adventure?

[Paul Scheer]

That can work.

[Amy Nicholson]

Wait. I want to get away. See some of the world. Explore. You Want to be an explorer. This will pass. We all think like this now and then. I find that monologue really scary because. Sorry. I find that scene really scary because basically his wife is saying lines that I say to myself in my head all the time. Like, you can't do that. And you can't do that. You should be more practical with your life. And you're letting your life live by you. You're not experiencing it to the full. That's horrifying because really, I think that's at the core of this film, in a way, honestly. You know what else the Truman show really made me think of is It's a Wonderful Life. Because this is also the version of that, too.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm so excited you say that because I literally was like, I gotta bring up It's a Wonderful Life. I just wrote that down.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And it's because It's a Wonderful Life also kind of says, it kind of goes the opposite direction, which is like, I know you want to leave, but honestly, you should stay here. It's like the Truman show worked and kept him there. Right? Like, this is what your life is. And so it's an interesting. I was thinking about it from the point of view of, like, of the director. Why am I blanking on his name of Frank Capra. Yeah, Frank Capra, like, is kind of the successful version of Ed Harris. He kept him there.

[Amy Nicholson]

Oh, your uncle just gave away all your money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you're right, you're, in a way, the way you're coming at It's a wonderful day from the other angle of like, but you should stay home and all of your family is here. I wonder if that's what they're making fun of when he sits down to watch a movie and they're like, here's your favorite old classic. This is exactly what it's about.

[Paul Scheer]

And there'll be another episode of I

[Amy Nicholson]

Love Lucy same time tomorrow. But right now, it's time for Golden Oldies.

[Paul Scheer]

Tonight we present the enduring, much loved

[Amy Nicholson]

classic, Show Me the Way to Go Home. A hymn of praise to small town life, where we learn that you don't

[Paul Scheer]

have to leave home to discover what

[Amy Nicholson]

the world's all about and that no one is poor who has friends.

[Paul Scheer]

Full of laughter and love, pain and

[Amy Nicholson]

sadness, but ultimately redemption, which. Oh, okay, now the layers are, like, really stacking up to me because it's like, if you interpret It's a Wonderful Life as just be fine, your life is fine, then it is that inner version of Show Me the movie. And the movies are telling us just to suck it up and everything's great and you don't have to travel anyways.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. And I think that that is the thing that is really, really interesting. Like, our movies very rarely tell us to go and leave and get out, you know?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I mean, I've never seen Eat, Pray, Love, but I assume that's what.

[Paul Scheer]

No, but, you know, and I think that maybe that's part of, like, the argument that he's making, is that we're all complicit. We want to watch those movies. We want to, you know, we're there. You know, we're not at the bar, but we want to be at the bar. Right. We want to, like, we're going to all gather around. It's easier to be there than it is anywhere else. You know, it's interesting to me.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I think that's why where the Truman show hits me the hardest is almost stripping the reality show element away from it and just thinking about how it really is not even just a symbol of mental thinking that this is like a real place. I just assumed my entire life that the Truman show was filmed on, like, a gigantic set and. No, this is filmed in an actual town that designed itself to look like this because it's for people who want to live in a version of a town that looks like a happy movie set all the time, where everything is 1950 and everything is perfect. That this is one of those fake towns that got made in Florida just basically to be like a theme park of a town. It's called seaside. It has 400 houses. They're all very controlled of the design. They have to be slightly different from each other, but not too different from each other. They all have to have a white fence, but they have to have a different white fence. Rich people basically built this town to say, I want to live in a set. I want to live in a world that is this cozy version of the world that looks like the 1950s movie of my dreams. And it is real. And they do live there. And I find that just completely brain breaking. I mean, if you've heard of, like, Celebration, the Disney town, they basically took the idea from Seaside, and that's what

[Paul Scheer]

I was gonna bring up. Like, that idea is, like, people. I mean, the fact that people wanted to live in Disney. Right. I think the reason why there are Disney adults out there.

[Amy Nicholson]

You wanted to live in the Americana, didn't you?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, well, I didn't want to. We were considering living in the Americana when we were Gonna do work on our house. There's a difference. There is a difference. And I will say that just from being on the outside of that, I was like, oh, thank God we never did that.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, walk out of your house, Frank Sinatra and fountains all day long.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, although. Although my mom lives there and she absolutely loves it. Like, loves it, loves it, loves it. And it makes her feel like. But, you know, but my mom is also an older woman who I think is very happy to have that kind of fake world around her.

[Amy Nicholson]

Does she walk downstairs and go to the Cheesecake Factory?

[Paul Scheer]

You know, the funny thing about my mom is she doesn't go anywhere. But I'm like, can you hear me? You literally live in the place where you can go anywhere you want and you don't.

[Amy Nicholson]

Can you hear Frank Sinatra from inside her place?

[Paul Scheer]

She likes to leave the door open so you can.

[Amy Nicholson]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. So, you know, there you go.

[Amy Nicholson]

I lose my mind. Could you live in this town?

[Paul Scheer]

No, I don't want. No, I don't want to. I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's like. But I do think that this is the idea of like, I know that I love certain things about Disney World and I think the reason why. And it's changed as I've gotten older, but I think the thing about Disney that's so wonderful is it's safe. It's the reason why there is an Olive Garden in every city. Right. I remember whenever I'm on tour, I'll say, oh, hey, you know what's a good place to eat around here? And people will say, oh, the Cheesecake Factory. You're like, hold on one second. Like, what do you mean? And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, the Cheesecake Factory. It's like, well, no, but I mean. And I think that that's part of it. It's like, people feel like, this is safe. This is a safe, you know. Oh, it's safe. It's good. It's. Yeah, that's delicious.

[Amy Nicholson]

I get scared in places like that. Like, I get scared when you travel and you're in a place where everything's really clean and nice. I get freaked out. Like, am I not allowed to be here? Am I ruining the place? I was scuffing it up with my dirty sneakers. I don't like hyper clean, well maintained things. They just make me feel like I don't belong.

[Paul Scheer]

I, you know, I get that. I think that there's a safety sometimes. I don't know. I think that chain restaurants, the end of mom and pop stores, the, you know, the reliance on places that are familiar when you go from town to town. Again, not that I am like touring all the time, but I'm out and about. You know, you see these things and it's like, oh, these people are. They want. Everything looks the same. I mean, everything looks the same. And I don't think it used to be like that. I know it used to be like that, but that there's a, you know, I don't know, I feel like that's a bigger part of this movie as well.

[Amy Nicholson]

So you're saying with Hilton Honors, I can use points for a three night stay anywhere? Anywhere. What about fancy places like the canopy in Paris? Yeah. Hilton Honors, baby.

[Paul Scheer]

Or relaxing sanctuaries like the Conrad in

[Amy Nicholson]

Tulum Hilton Honors, baby.

[Paul Scheer]

What about the five star Waldorf Astoria in the Maldives?

[Amy Nicholson]

Are you gonna do this for all 9,000 properties? When you want points that can take you anywhere, anytime it matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay, book your spring break now. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola in original and cherry vanilla that Pepsi taste you love with no artificial sweeteners and 3 grams of prebiotic fiber. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, unbelievably Pepsi. What do you think it means psychologically that disgraced politician Matt Gaetz grew up literally in the Truman House? Not just even in the town, but literally in the Truman House. His parents bought that house in 1991 before the movie was made. It only cost like $125,000 by the time back in 1991. Now it's like almost 3 million. But what does it mean if you are a person who sought public life growing up in the house that was a public house for a version of the world that was just completely phony to begin with?

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, that to me is really fascinating. Right? Cause you are living in exactly what you said, a world that feels a little bit more fake. Right. It's supposed to be, you know, it's supposed to be. And I think that if you're a

[Amy Nicholson]

Make America great Again guy, but you live in a place that was made to basically be the model of make America Great Again. This is what you want it to look like.

[Paul Scheer]

I need to like, you know, and, you know, I'm not trying to be political, but I do think that there's something that's very easy to say and it's somebody who's smarter than me who said it. So I'm repeating them and paraphrasing them, which is when we go, let's go back to the way that things Were oftentimes what we're saying is, let's go back to when things were easier when you were a child, when you were younger, when you had less responsibilities.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. I love the 90s because I love the 90s. Cause I didn't have to worry about anything. Exactly. And I barely followed the news and I didn't know what was happening 100%.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. So that idea is natural. That idea is very Truman Show. Right. That idea of living in the town is a part of that, but it's unrealistic because you're not engaging your age in it. You know, when I heard my grandma talk about the difference of the post office in town. No politician is going to change the way your town looks. Right. Like in that way it's not going to. You know, it's your own perception because it's a POV that is warped through childhood eyes. And what we see and what we do, it's so completely different. So I understand and I actually really relate to the idea of let's make America great again. Because it's like, let's make it simpler, let's make it easier. This shit is complex. I have to have an opinion about this and that. And that makes me feel uncomfortable. Now I have to be confronted with something that makes me feel uncomfortable as a kid. That's. You are blockaded from that for the large part by parents and by age and by just the amount of information you're getting. So I have that and I can see that. I could see somebody falling into that kind of belief system very easily. But again, you have Matt Gaetz, who you know is having like. I mean, God, I don't even. Where it's like sex trafficking and all this other stuff, which is also like that seedy underbelly. It's like, yeah, you're saying one thing, but you're living a very different life,

[Amy Nicholson]

man. Okay. Oh, no. I just had the most sick thought ever. I actually do want now a 24 hour reality show just set in this town about all the horrible stuff that happens in this place that looks so perfect. Because I don't trust it. I don't trust a town like that. I think anybody who would build a town like that and move into it and act the way even that I think Truman Show's mother does here, where she's like, oh my goodness, everything's going to cede and the rest of the world is trash. Or even at Harris, who loves this town, he thinks that this is how reality should be and that everywhere else is broken.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I have given Truman the chance to

[Amy Nicholson]

lead a normal life.

[Paul Scheer]

The world, the place you live in, is the sick place. Seahaven is the way the world should be. Yes, exactly. So that's what we're talking about. We are talking about making it perfect, making it right. And the world is messy, and the world is complicated, and these are. And these are the ideas. Right. And it's easier to stay in the cave than go out, like my good friend Plato said. Right. Then dealing with, I don't know, like, all these bigger issues. And what's kind of heroic is once he understands that outside that door is something that will not treat him as well. I mean, I would love to have seen a sequel to this movie, because I think that that actually is fascinating, too. The celebrity in the world and who is he and how can he react? And, you know, it's like that. Give me the J. Kelly of Truman.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, you're right. But I like that the film ends where it does because it's like his private life is private. We don't get to see it.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, but he's making a choice to say it may not be right, it may not be perfect, it may not be good, but at least it's a choice, and I get to make a choice.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love how Jim Carrey plays this scene, and I love how Peter Weir stages this scene because, you know, his boat crashes into the actual limit of the set, and it looks so surreal. Oh, my God, it's just gorgeous. They actually used the image, even for the poster of Cannes a couple years ago. Like, sky with stairs and starkness. And instead of putting the camera, like, on Jim Carrey's face, where he could do his big Oscar moment, that probably would have even gotten him the nomination, because people are ridiculous. Oh, I'm crying and I'm blubbering, and, oh, my God. And a thousand emotions crossing my face the whole time. He puts the camera just on Truman's back. We don't get to watch how he's reacting. We just watch him absorb it. He makes, like, I think, the tiniest little noise, his little underplaying here.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, oh.

[Amy Nicholson]

And he then gets to just absorb it. And how beautiful is that? How subtle is that? Like, that's not, I think, how. I would just assume you'd play the scene. Right.

[Paul Scheer]

I agree.

[Amy Nicholson]

That's exactly right. Like, it gives him some human respectfulness. He's had the camera up in his face in his bathroom mirror, and now he gets to be alone, you know, and. Oh, my gosh, I just thought of that. That's right. There is no camera right there. There wouldn't have been.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, And I do think that, you know, this movie is ahead of the curve in a lot of different ways. I also can't stop thinking about Pleasantville, but I don't remember enough of it to be able to draw a beautiful comparison to it. But, like, Pleasantville came out the year after this, I believe, or 98 it came out. And that was also about, like, the logline of. It was. Nothing is as simple as black and white. And it was this, like, 1950s family that's starting to see color. And what does that mean? And, you know, so I think we're wrestling with this idea of, like, this transition to a more, you know, the late 90s into the early 2000s. Is this a more complicated time? And then, you know, it's interesting because in 2001, we do have nine, 11 too. Right. So it's like. That's another shock of like, oh, wow, hold on. Right. Like, the world is opening up. The Internet is more accessible. Like, the world is expanding right in front of us in this moment.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And these are the ones that are kind of like, just prescient enough to say, hey, shit's changing.

[Amy Nicholson]

Exactly. And you're trying to keep it the same and cozy, and it's not gonna work. I mean, I do think if we had a Truman Show, Truman show itself now on the air, I think audiences would probably take about a week to be like, hold on. What's up with Kristoff? He's a horrible person. Right.

[Paul Scheer]

I don't think they would even know. But do you know who's running company retreat?

[Amy Nicholson]

Well, no, but I am thinking about how everybody's mad at the Love Is Blind producers for not feeding people and keeping them cold and making them drunk all the time.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, but that. I mean, that's different. I think that those are two different things. Cause he's not abusive like that.

[Amy Nicholson]

No, but I think we're quicker to condemn a show for the way that they have structured it.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. I mean, I guess there's a part of it, too, where it's like, we all watched that show where it was like the fictional version of what it's like to be a producer on the Bachelorette. I think that what people don't wanna see is, oh, these producers are manipulating what we're seeing. Cause there's still a part of us that's like, oh, I just wanna just enjoy that these are actually real people and they're happy.

[Amy Nicholson]

But now we're in such a deep cycle of the reality show, where people go onto a show knowing that they'll be the villain, knowing that they'll be this. I mean, it's just. It's iterating. It just keeps evolving and evolving and evolving psychologically, where now it is basically scripted. You're just going in knowing that you're a scripted character. Like, everybody is Marlon now, in a way, or I guess everybody is closer to the Laura Linney character, the Meryl of it all, who knows very well what she's doing and why she's there. I mean, she is basically a contestant on the Bachelorette who's like, well, I guess I will sleep with this guy occasionally for ratings. I mean, hearing Laura Linney talk about how she considered the characters fascinating. She was a rabidly ambitious, powerful woman who, when not on the set, my idea was that she had this huge room with an enormous conference table, and she was just making deals left, right, and center and making an enormous amount of money that she had gained so much popularity through the show that she had an enormous amount of power. For example, every time she slept with. With Truman, she'd get a bump in salary. I mean. Cause that's gross. You do have to kind of go there with that character. She is living with this man. She is sleeping with this man occasionally. It doesn't seem like they do it that much, but it has happened. They are married. And I wonder what it does to her psyche, knowing, as the entire world knows and that the entire world knows about her, that she's his second choice, that he would have gladly dumped her in a heartbeat for Sylvia. But Sylvia is gone, in that she's just the world's most public, I guess.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. You know, and it's interesting. It's like this idea, too. It's like, I think it's funny that the dad and the girlfriend or the girl that he likes really were trying to. Like, they reneged on what they did. Like, yes, they want to take the part. They got there and they go, I don't like this. Right. So there's a part of that, too, which is like, oh, they change their mind once they're there. And do we have more admiration for the people who never change their mind? I don't know. Are they better actors? Is that what they're supposed to do? You willingly did this thing, but then humanity came in. I mean, it's all over the board. It's tricky. It's asking a lot of questions.

[Amy Nicholson]

It really is. And we don't get to Spend that much time with the Sylvia character. But I love that when we do. I love the way that Natasha plays it. She's just always glancing over her shoulder. She looks so terrified. She looks like she's in a spy movie. I mean, she's just always aware of where the cameras are and she's freaking out.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm Truman Burbank.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, I know. You know, Truman, I'm not allowed to talk to you.

[Paul Scheer]

Really?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I can understand it.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm a pretty dangerous character. I'm sorry. It's not up to me. Girls gotta be careful. I mean, that whole there, like. I respect that we don't see too much behind the curtain of how the show works, works that it's not, you know, that a third of the movie isn't taken up too much with the mechanics of how these actors are doing. That we get to kind of build in our imagination or understand it just through her nervousness. Although they did have a deleted scene where they were talking about what's going to happen if they can get this romance that they're trying with the secondary redhead that they kind of cast to look, I think even like Sylvia Vivian, the red hair to work in his office to replace Meryl, who's leaving the film because he's having a break and grabbing knives. And it looks very dangerous to be him right now. They have a meeting of what will happen if they can actually get this couple together and if they can create a sequel. I don't have to tell you how critical these next few weeks will be.

[Paul Scheer]

This takes us into the next generation.

[Amy Nicholson]

When the child is born, the network

[Paul Scheer]

will be switching over to a two

[Amy Nicholson]

channel format to chronicle both lives. What happens when Truman and the baby are both on camera together?

[Paul Scheer]

There will simply be duplicate coverage.

[Amy Nicholson]

Let's just hope we don't have twins.

[Paul Scheer]

So when Truman dies, we go back to the single channel format. Right.

[Amy Nicholson]

That will be all.

[Paul Scheer]

Thank you.

[Amy Nicholson]

I love that scene. And I think I don't miss that scene not being in the movie.

[Paul Scheer]

I totally agree. Cause I think that what I was saying early on too is part of it is just. It's not about who cares how they do it. It's cool. We don't need to get into the nitty gritty of it. That's not what the movie is about. Right. That's a different movie. This is a movie about him and he's gotta make that choice. I think that the choice that he's making is a choice that everyone is agreeing to, you know, letting go, having more control Finding out what a choice is. And I would also argue that, you know, Peter Weir is having an issue with Jim Carrey during this movie too, because Jim Carrey wants to improvise more. Peter Weir's like, no, it's gonna wreck what I need you to be. Because he needs him to. It's a very straight line of what he needs to do and how he needs to be. So I also think it's like, I'm sure that Peter Weir is wrestling with, should I give him more? Am I making a mistake in this? Because you have to think like, oh, am I not getting what I need from him? Or am I doing the right thing? He's trying to control Jim Carrey, the person he wanted in this.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. And I love that he said the reason he wanted Jim Carrey is because Jim Carrey has that, I think, classic lovability. Right. Like he said that Jim Carrey was basically like a modern day chaplain, which is lovely. And I think that that is fairly correct. And I would have loved to see, I think, even more Jim Carrey. That was serious than that. We have this film. I'm glad that we have Eternal Sunshine. I think those two are perfect movies and I think he was perfect for that. And I think actually in this period of his life, even Jim Carrey is really understanding what it is like to be a Truman. Because he went from anonymous to major celebrity incredibly fast. You know, he went from that life of, I'm just a comedian living my life, going around doing my thing. Suddenly I have paparazzi in my backyard. I have people chasing me when I'm, you know, trying to get married. I think he was really wrestling with that. Like, am I on the right track being gigantic movie star doing Batman Forever? Or is there a more authentic version of me that I should explore? And I think this was his attempt at that.

[Paul Scheer]

I totally agree. And where are we now? Like you said, this is a movie that comes out before all this stuff. And I think we take the wrong thing away from it. And I think, but that's okay, right? But it's interesting because I think of this packaging that it's in and the character that it's in. We look at it and it stays with us and we go, ah, that's right. Now what's on Love is Blind Tonight, Right? Like, you know, we haven't heard.

[Amy Nicholson]

Now the show ends. The show that all of the people have been obsessed with and they're like, okay, what else is on air? Like, that's the last line of the movie. You know, whatever. What are we gonna watch next?

[Paul Scheer]

Right. It just be. It becomes disposable. And, you know, I think that, like, that's part of, like, I don't know, the commodification of, like, entertainment to a certain degree as well. It's like, the reason why, you know, we aren't. You know, you're doing two years between seasons of a show, and because things are just. You're forgetting things. Like, all right, what's entertaining me now? Oh, that show is back that I loved. Oh, but it's been a year. I don't care anymore. Like, you can't. It's almost forcing. It's like daring you to find and be a fan of something. Even movie stars, I think, are having a hard time launching.

[Amy Nicholson]

I mean, if anything. Yeah. The loyalty that you could love this show for 30 years feels almost hard to imagine, except for reality. Yeah. You know what it is? It's like, because he's controlled on this bubble, he can't do the thing that would get him canceled.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, they would never let him.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah, yeah. They would never let him do anything that would be cancelable. Like, oh, no, you're flirting with the girl that we don't want you to be flirting with. She's gone. He couldn't do the thing that would make him an Internet villain, unlike everybody else who stays in front of cameras too long.

[Paul Scheer]

And I feel like there is something where we'll always be wrestling with, are we abusing people? Are people like, you know, I don't put my kids on social media. That's a choice that I make. Because they can't make that choice yet. When they get older, they can do whatever they want. Um, but right now, I am protecting them from that. I remember that there was a kid in my son's first grade class who was obsessed with having people follow his YouTube channel. The worst thing you would ever want. He's not making anything of interest in those videos. Not that that would. But it's like. It's like, why do we need followers? Why do you need these things? And it's like, so I. In my mind, I try to protect them from those issues. There's enough other issues they have to deal with. And, you know, we're subjecting ourselves. We want to be seen. People would want to be Truman now. People would subject themselves to this willingly. And that's maybe the big difference, too, is people would want to go in, and people are going in. I mean, that's what it is. People are going in very different ways. But that's what's happening.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm Will. I would love just to be inside the body of someone who wants to do reality TV just for a day so I can understand what on earth they are feeling. Cause to me it sounds like my absolute nightmare. Yeah, just any camera on me ever is my absolute nightmare, you know, and that's to me.

[Paul Scheer]

And that to me is like, I did one reality thing. I did a one day shoot reality show and I was scared out of my mind. Not because, well, there's a couple things. One, you're like, I have no control over any of this, what they're gonna use. And that's, you know, as an actor, you have no control over a lot of this stuff unless you're a producer. So there's that, but it's also you and you don't know what you're gonna do. And then you have to be like, I've gotta make sure I don't get manipulated here. And one of the things that we did was the first challenge was, hey, who wants to take this ball and throw it through a hoop? And if you get it in the hoop, you win a car for one of your fans. If you don't get it through the hoop, you are immediately eliminated from the show. So the risk of throwing this ball, you have one shot kind of sucks, right? Like, it's like, I don't want to get kicked off the show. So you just immediately say no. And then you wait 20 minutes. So like anyone want to throw this ball? And again you're like, no. Now it's 40 minutes, then it comes in 60 minutes. Like, anyone want to throw this ball? And then someone inevitably like, yeah, yeah, I'll throw it. Because you've been waiting for 60 minutes and you're done and you're like, and your thing changes. But when you watch the show, it's like, anyone want to throw this ball? And one person raises their hand. It feels fast. It feels, you know, like it's a morphing of reality. So I knew that these things are at play, but you never know how they're going to look in a different way or how you can be manipulated because you really are allowing yourself to be edited in ways they could take things. If you watch Traitors, there's a whole breakdown of how they were editing people's words differently to make create more drama. Like, you know, you are just a prop. You are a puppet. And that's what you have to kind of agree to.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hell on earth. I do wonder if we're gonna come Back to, like, a moment of the zeitgeist being very pro. Privacy.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

Cause I do feel like this is it. I'm done, man. I got waymos driving around recording me on the streets. I got food carts driving up and down with cameras everywhere. Just, like, giving footage to the cops. Like, I'm done with this. I'm done with cameras following me all the time. I mean, now you could shoot the Truman Show, I think, just with, like, city footage of anybody.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

I would like to see an end of cameras. That's me. I don't know. I don't. I just. It's terrible.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I mean, by the way, you know what I was thinking of when we were talking about this is Bowfinger. Remember when they made the movie with the Eddie Murphy stunt double? Like, that's a great other movie like that, too.

[Amy Nicholson]

You know, I've never seen Bowfinger either.

[Paul Scheer]

What?

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, Amy. All right. Bowfinger and Cable Guy are going on the list.

[Amy Nicholson]

Okay.

[Paul Scheer]

100%. Okay. Molly and Harry, make sure you mark that down. This is fascinating. I think that this movie still works this day because it does bring up a bunch of thorny questions. It does give you a cheerful ending. I think it does give you a. I think you can feel good about the choices you want to make in life. I think it can also question the choices that you are doing in life. I think it's a movie that doesn't make you feel bad. And for all the things we just talked about, that's the trickiest thing you could possibly pull off. And in a time where this movie is now, however old it is, you know, over 25 years old, we don't talk about Pleasantville the same way. I don't know if Pleasantville just got just kind of washed away in the storm because of Truman show, but Truman show does have weight because reality TV gets more and more popular. And as my sons watched Truman show, they loved it and got it, and they were so into it. Cause they understand what reality is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Yeah. Or what reality, quote, unquote, is.

[Paul Scheer]

By the way, if you wanna watch a great breakdown of reality and what different things are. I mean, I know everyone knows this, but there's a great David Letterman special where he embeds himself with Mr. Beast on Netflix, which is pretty fascinating.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm terrified by that. Okay. But you know what? I want to do a weird version of this idea next week. I think we should do. Oh, my gosh, My life is fake. What is happening to me? My wife isn't really my wife. And Now I want to go shoot some things. I think we should do Total Recall.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, I am ready for Total Recall. I cannot wait. I read that book as a kid. I remember when I had chickenpox. That's. And then I got to see the movie. I was so psyched. I was like, I read it first. Yeah.

[Amy Nicholson]

You're like, oh, it's the three boobs. I can't wait. They're boobs.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, Amy, by the way, I want to start telling people that if you have not yet. Well, I guess you wouldn't have known yet. You can start to follow us on [e-mail] etunspooled that's YouTube.com etunspooled we have some special stuff coming up, but this is the beginning. So right now, just start following us. Things will start happening there. YouTube.com the Symboletunspooled. And make sure you check out our substack each and every week to go a little bit deeper on the movies that we talk about here. It's always free, so join in the conversation. Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Scheer, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Cory Barton, music by Devin Bryant, episode art by Kim Troxall, show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a Rome production. See you next week. Bye for now. Welcome to Inside the Art House, the

[Amy Nicholson]

go to destination for cinephiles and the number one place for art house cinema and filmmaker conversations. Each week, today's most visionary filmmakers pull back the curtain on the art of

[Paul Scheer]

cinema, sharing how stories are made and why they matter.

[Amy Nicholson]

Hosted by Greg Laemmle of the legendary Laemmle Theaters, a family that shaped the movie business for over a century, and Raphael Sparge, actor and award winning director. Together they explore the creative process, the struggles and the triumphs behind the camera, and the bold ideas shaping film today. From indie debuts, documentaries to international art house cinema, Inside the Art House dives deep into a world where passion meets craft and where the love of film lives loud. Inside the Art House conversations with today's most visionary filmmakers.

[Paul Scheer]

Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, Praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadowdark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare

[Amy Nicholson]

with a story that emerges organically based

[Paul Scheer]

on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8pm Eastern on YouTube.com theglasscannon with the podcast version dropping the next day.

[Amy Nicholson]

See what everybody's talking about and join

[Paul Scheer]

us in the dark.