Kelly Therese Pollack (9:35)

Segregated their burial plots.

Kelly Therese Pollack (9:39)

He was married four times and had six children, two sons and four daughters. Joining me in this episode is Dr. Marion Orr Frederick Lippett, professor of public policy and professor of Political science at Brown University and author of House of the Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressman, Charles C. Diggs, Jr.

Kelly Therese Pollack (10:25)

I wanna tell you people all about my beloved.

Kelly Therese Pollack (10:40)

Hi Marian.

Kelly Therese Pollack (10:41)

Thanks so much for joining me today.

Dr. Marion Orr (10:43)

Well, thank you for having me on your show. Looking forward to our discussion.

Kelly Therese Pollack (10:49)

This was a terrific book. I'm looking forward to speaking about it. I want to hear a little bit about what first got you interested in writing this biography of Charles Diggs, Jr.

Dr. Marion Orr (11:02)

Well, I'm a political scientist by training and I study American politics. I learned about Charles Diggs many years ago when I was an undergraduate student at Savannah State College. That's a historically black college in my hometown where I was raised in grew up there. And I had a professor at Savannah State, a political scientist. His name was Haynes Walton Haynes, like the T shirt maker, Haynes. His last name was Walton. And Professor Walton taught many of the political science courses at Savannah State. He was a brilliant, brilliant political scientist, by the way. And Charles Diggs came up in many of the courses that Dr. Walton taught. He came up in his course on American government when Professor Walton taught us about Congress. Diggs came up because Charles Diggs was the founder of the Congressional Black Caucus. I remember, Kelly, that Dr. Walton taught a course on African politics. And again, Diggs came up in that course because Charles Diggs was a a leader in the American anti apartheid movement. So I learned about Charles Diggs when I was about 18 years old as an undergraduate political science student. And then I went on to get my PhD in political science, Kelly. And I learned even more about the Congressman. And then I discovered that there was no book or no biography on Diggs. And so I decided to take the plunge. It took me 10 years to do the research and writing the House of Diggs.

Kelly Therese Pollack (12:47)

What did that research look like?

Kelly Therese Pollack (12:49)

What kind of sources were you able to find?

Kelly Therese Pollack (12:51)

And could you talk some about your use of oral history as well?

Dr. Marion Orr (12:56)

Well, certainly the research space, I should say largely on the papers of Congressman Diggs. Diggs donated his congressional personal and business papers to Howard University. And there's about 750 boxes of material that Diggs left. It's a rich source of information and data about the Congressman, his work on Capitol Hill, his business. His family owned a funeral home, by the way, and the funeral home was called the House of Digs and hence the title of the book. So I had archival data from the Congressman papers. I have archival data from all the presidential libraries under the presidents that Congressman Diggs served under. And then, Kelly, you mentioned us. I had a wonderful opportunity to interview about 30 individuals who actually knew the Congressman. His family members, his colleagues on Capitol Hill, staff members, indeed neighbors who remember the Congressman. So it's a really rich data source that drives the book. Lots of governmental data. Also, the Congressman had lots of speeches on Capitol Hill. And then finally I was able to obtain Congressman Diggs FBI file. And that was another rich source of information about his, his life.

Kelly Therese Pollack (14:45)

I of course read and know a lot of American history and I'm especially interested in politics. And I'd heard his name, but I didn't know a whole lot about him. Before reading your book, can you talk a little bit about why he isn't better known despite his effectiveness, all the he was able to do while he was in Congress?

Dr. Marion Orr (15:05)

Well, Congressman Diggs served on Capitol Hill from 1955 to 1980, some nearly 25 years. And many people may remember the name and heard the name because he really played a vital and important role, but they don't know a whole much about him, as you indicated. I think there's a couple of reasons for this. One, when Diggs was in Congress, he served alongside for many of the years he was in Congress of a man named Adam Clayton Powell. Adam Clayton Powell was a Congress member from Harlem, a black Congress member who arrived on Capitol Hill ten years before Dix. And Powell was a very flamboyant Congress member. And he got the attention, I.e. powell, of many of the reporters who were covering Capitol Hill during the post World War II period. That's number one. He was overshadowed, I believe, by this very domineering Congressman, Adam Clayton Powell. And then the other reason I believe many people have forgotten about Diggs is I believe his downfall had something to do about his, what some people call and told me his erasure from history. He had a tremendous downfall. In fact, I should tell your listeners that he eventually spent seven months in prison for payroll irregularities that he was convicted on. Let me just add, Diggs, unlike Powell, was sort of unassuming, soft spoken, kind of individuals who can often get overlooked on Capitol Hill. So I think those two features, his downfall and his being overshadowed by Adam Clayton Powell.

Kelly Therese Pollack (17:17)

Can you talk some about the legislative style that Diggs had? You know, he was, as I mentioned, he was pretty affectionate. There were a lot of things he was able to do. So what was his approach to governing?

Dr. Marion Orr (17:31)

Yeah, when Diggs arrived In Congress in 1955, there were only two other black members of Congress. So that's three black members out of 435 House members. And Diggs arrived in Congress, he had to decide how he was going to approach the legislature. And what he decided to do was to carve out what I call a politics of strategic moderation. Let me just say this. The other two members of Congress, black members of Congress, was a man named William Dawson. Dawson was a black Congress member from Chicago. And he was very conservative, especially around racial issues. Dawson came out of the Chicago machine and he was somewhat controlled by the machine in terms of what he could say and what he could do. Very conservative. On the other hand, Adam Clayton Powell, whom I mentioned earlier, was outspoken and spoke out forcefully on racial issues. He was considered a black militant, indeed a black radical. What Diggs decided was in an effort to be effective in Congress, in order to build coalitions, that you really had to be strategic. And his strategy was to chart out this sort of moderate approach. And let me be very clear what I mean by a politics of strategic moderation. Diggs was a race man from his heart. He was very forceful on racial issues. He spoke out against discrimination, and he was a strong supporter of black civil rights. So he wasn't a martyr in the sense of this. He was a moderate in the sense of his strategy in trying to build a broad based coalition in the Congress. He understood that given the fact that blacks were a numerical minority, only about 12% of the population and a racial minority, it required a strategic approach to build coalitions. And he wanted to build and believe that black Americans had to have support from across the political spectrum. And that's what he tried to do as a Congressperson to try to build these broad based coalitions across ideological spectrums. And that was his approach. And given the way our Founding Fathers established the Congress, this approach, I think proved much more effective than the Powell approach of militant radicalism and much more effective than Dawson's quiet ignorance or annoyance of black racial issues. And so the Founding Fathers established the Congress to be an institution of bargaining and compromise. And that's what Diggs was effective at in working in that institution to both build coalitions and understanding when one had to compromise.

Kelly Therese Pollack (21:03)

So it seems in reading your book that you know, in some ways Diggs, and partly because he was one of only a few black congressmen, as you mentioned, that he almost had to be a Congress member not just of his district in Michigan, but of Mississippi, of Washington D.C. of the larger black population. I want to start with Mississippi. Can you talk some about his connections to Mississippi? And then, you know, he has some really important moments, especially sort of early in the Civil Rights Rights movement where he's in Mississippi where he's fighting for the people of Mississippi.

Dr. Marion Orr (21:40)

Dick spent a lot of time early on in his career, especially in the, in the south, in the Deep South. He was drawn especially to Mississippi because it's his ancestral home. His, his father, his father, Charles Diggs senior, was a part of the Great Migration. His mother, Mamie Diggs, came from Tennessee. And so Diggs ancestral home was indeed Mississippi. When Diggs arrived In Congress in 1955, one of the first things that he did was to go down to Mississippi in the summer of 1955 to observe the trial of the two white men who had murdered Emmett Till. Your listeners may recognize Emmett Till's name. Emmett till was the 14 year old black Chicago boy who was lynched in Mississippi in the summer of 1955. And so Diggs first national exposure, if you will, was his attending the trial of these two white men, and I say this in the book, and I repeat it here, is that Diggs had a major impact on the trial while he was there. I think an impact that's been overlooked by many. Number one, Diggs presence, and he was actually in the courtroom during the five days of the trial. His presence in the courtroom gave assurance and encouragement to the black witnesses who came forward to testify against the two white men. It was Kelly and your listeners, a dangerous thing in 1955 for black men and women to accuse a white person of a crime. And so these black witnesses who came forward in Mississippi, they were, they told reporters after the trial, that seeing Congressman Diggs in the courtroom, seeing a powerful black man from the federal government in the courtroom during the trial, gave them the courage to testify at the trial. So he had a big impact on the black witnesses that came. The other impact he had at the trial is that Digg's presence as the only federal government official at the trial, his presence drew additional media attention to the trial and moreover, to the broader issue of civil rights in the South. So the media was just curious about this new black member of Congressman. Again. He just arrived in January of 55. The trial is taking place in late August, early September of 1955. And so the reporters are curious about this new black congressman. What is it that would draw this person from Detroit to Mississippi to observe the trial? And then finally, the third impacted that this trial had on Diggs is what you said earlier in your question to me. Diggs presence at the trial of the two white men who murdered Emmett Till was really sending a signal to America about what kind of congressmember he planned to be. And what he was saying by being down in Mississippi. He was saying to America that although I was elected from the 13th congressional district of Michigan, and although I planned to represent that district, he was saying he also planned to be a Congress member for all of black America. And if you look at his career, you see he did just that. He was a Congress member for all of black America during his period in Congress.

Kelly Therese Pollack (26:08)

And of course, another segment of black America that was and still is unrepresented in Congress is the population of Washington, dc. And, you know, I. I've been really interested in the more current movement for statehood, but I. I don't think I realized how far back the push to statehood in D.C. went. Can you talk some about what he was able to do in the House Committee? That of course, we didn't get all the way to statehood in D.C. but he was able to really have a big impact on the ability of D.C. residents to have some control, at least in the way their city was governed.

Dr. Marion Orr (26:48)

Yes, yes. Washington, D.C. is a unique kind of city in that it is the seat of the federal government. Government. And so Washington, D.C. was carved out of portions of Maryland and portions of Virginia. And our Constitution, the United States Constitution, Kelly, gives Congress exclusive control over the federal district, Washington, dc. And many people don't know this, but for the beginning of DC's history, Congress, given that it had control over the district, Congress allowed local officials to run Washington D.C. for decades, indeed, until after the Civil War, when more and more black People moved to Washington, D.C. black people now have the right to vote after at least black men do after the Civil War. And so blacks began to have political power shortly after and during and after Reconstruction in Washington, D.C. well, Congress decides that it would remove home rule and no longer allow local officials to run Washington, D.C. so for 100 years following Reconstruction, until around 1973, the president of the United States appointed the mayor and other top officials in Washington, D.C. to make a long story short, the members of Congress simply did not want black people to have governing authority over Washington, D.C. and what happened is that in 1973, Diggs became chair of the committee that had jurisdiction over Washington, D.C. and he was able to push through the Congress a bill that is now called the Home Rule Bill. And today, Congress now allows D.C. residents to vote for its mayor, city council members, and other public officials. So for 100 years, there was this real push for home rule, as it's now called, and Diggs was able to put through a compromise bill. Let me just say that that allowed for the kind of home rule we have today that, as you indicated, Kelly, at least imply, is currently being scrutinized heavily by the Trump administration. So Charles Diggs Jr. Is indeed the father of home rule in Washington, D.C. and we can connect the current mayor of Washington, D.C. muriel Bowser, former mayors like Marion Barry, to the work and effort of Charles Diggs in pushing through the home rule bill through Congress.

Kelly Therese Pollack (30:07)

And if I am remembering your book correctly, Diggs was actually interested in there being a D.C. state statehood as well. But of course, we have not gotten there.

Dr. Marion Orr (30:18)

Charles Diggs was a strategic and skilled legislator, and he understood that in 1973 that you were not going to get through the Congress a bill that would grant Washington D.C. statehood. He supported statehood and supported the statehood movement, but he understood that Richard Nixon, who was president at the time, a Republican president, was not going to sign a bill that would grant Washington D.C. statehood and potentially allow two Democratic senators to come into the Congress and hence the compromise. Hence, Diggs had to, you know, he understood that he. That you had. You had to grab something. And the best thing DC has ever had right now is the current home rule home rule bill, which today probably would not get through the Congress. If a home rule bill came through today, I suspect it would be a challenge for Diggs or anyone else to get it through the Congress.

Kelly Therese Pollack (31:35)

Yeah. So you mentioned earlier Diggs interest in Africa and his work there. Can you expand some on that and how he got the name Mr. Africa and the work he was Able to do?

Dr. Marion Orr (31:50)

Yes, yes. There are three chapters in the book about Africa because Charles Diggs became the first American legislator to take a genuine and have a genuine interest in Africa. No other, no other congressmember has ever taken African policy so seriously as Congressman Diggs. In 1959, Diggs became the first black American to sit on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. And from his position on that committee and 10 years later, in 1969, when he became chair of the Africa Subcommittee of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, he began to talk about apartheid. Diggs was talking about apartheid, that system in South Africa that allowed the white minority to rule over the black majority. Diggs was talking about apartheid in the 1950s, before many Americans knew what apartheid was all about. And so, Kelly and your listeners, the American anti apartheid movement literally started in Diggs congressional office. He became the member of Congress who everybody looked for for ideas and strategies and policy around Africa. And he will work really hard as chair of the Africa Subcommittee to awaken America to the racist system of apartheid that was happening in South Africa. And he, Diggs was really going against the grain of American government policy. He was going against the grain of his party. Because our nation, our government was closely allied with the South African regime. And Diggs had to work hard to work the bond between our nation and the South African regime. South Africa, its government was highly anti communist. And hence our nation view South Africa as a strategic ally in the Cold War. And so while Diggs was trying to break the bond between our nation and South Africa, you have Democratic and Republican presidents trying to keep the bond in place. And so I argue in the book that Diggs work in South Africa was perhaps his greatest challenge and indeed his greatest accomplishment. As you and your listeners probably know, in 1994, Nelson Mandela was elected the first black African to lead South South Africa. And when Mandela visited the US in summer of 1990, he noted that it was the work of the black members of Congress, led by Charlie Diggs, that freed him from prison, that free Mandela from prison and brought down the racist regime in South Africa.

Kelly Therese Pollack (35:39)

You mentioned that Diggs started the Congressional Black Caucus. I think this is probably a caucus that a lot of people have heard of. It's of course, much bigger now, much more influential. Could you talk a little bit about how it started? Why some of the black members of Congress didn't actually want to form a.

Dr. Marion Orr (35:56)

Caucus Originally, when Diggs arrived in Congress In January of 1955, as I said earlier, there were only two other black members of Congress. Adam Clayton Powell, the black radical And Bill Dawson, the black conservative. Diggs discovered that the two men did not talk to one another. They didn't get along with one another. And I believe walking into this situation, Diggs had a sense it just wasn't really good for black America. I believe he understood right away that these. That the three of them ought to be working together somehow. Well, in 1968, Diggs would take up the idea of forming a caucus, that is to bring together at the time, the 13 black members of Congress, many of whom represented similar districts, all of whom were Democrats, and all of whom had challenges back home in their districts that overlapped. And so Diggs believed that the black members of Congress should sort of coalesce and come together. And so what he did was to. First of all, they met informally before they really formed the Congressional Black Caucus. They met informally in Diggs office to discuss policy and these kinds of things. And then in 1968, when the number of blacks reached 13, Diggs would formalize the group into an organization that he called the Democrat Select Committee. So the Democratic Select Committee was formed in 1969, and Diggs was its leader. And then in 1971, the Democratic Select Committee would change its name to the Congressional Black caucus. And the 13 members of the caucus at the time would appoint Diggs as the caucus principal spokesperson and leader. And so Diggs would become the first chairperson of the Congressional Black Caucus. And one of the first things that they did was to boycott Richard Nixon's 1971 State of the Union speech. And that would eventually lead to this historic meeting in March of 1972 between Richard Nixon, the President of the United states, and the 13 members of this new caucus, the Congressional Black Caucus. And today the caucus now have, I believe, 62 members and is one of the most powerful political organizations, I believe you could argue, in the country.

Kelly Therese Pollack (38:51)

We've been talking about wonderful, effective things that Diggs did. I think we need to mention his downfall, as you mentioned. So can you talk a little bit about the scandal that Diggs found himself in, a little bit about how it came about and the end result for him.

Dr. Marion Orr (39:13)

Charles Diggs, for many, many years had difficulty managing his personal finances, difficulty unwillingness. I don't know how to describe it, but he was a guy who always would overspend. And this was something that started early on when he was in his early 20s working for his father at the family owned funeral home, the House of Diggs Funeral Home. He had a salary as a young man working for his father. And I'm told through interviews that Diggs would spend his salary and come to his father for extra money. And his dad would say, come on now, spend your money wisely. I'm not giving you any more money. So he had a pendulum for overspending. And he had a tendency of relying on the House of Diggs Funeral Home to finance his overspending. So he would come to the funeral home because he's like the owner of it, and he would sort of, you know, get the cash he need to pay his personal finances. The funeral home would eventually collapse in the early 70s. The House of Diggs, which was a very prominent business enterprise for about 30 years, would eventually collapse. And I discussed this in the book. I won't go into it now. And hence Diggs did not have this source of additional income coming in. Now, let me say this. This is not an excuse for what Diggs eventually was convicted of. I'm just trying to explain to you and your listeners what happened to Congressman Diggs. So without the funeral home, he did not have this sort of cash he could get his hands on. And so given his prominence in Congress, chair of a subcommittee and chair of a full committee, he became chair of the. Of the D.C. committee. As I indicated, he had access to resources. And here's what he did. He gave his secretary a salary raise, an increase in her salary. And the increased salary was given back to Congressman Diggs. It's called a payroll kickback scheme. I give you an increase in your salary, but you give that salary increase back to me as the boss. And Diggs did this for about two and a half years with his secretary. And he used those funds to pay his personal bills. The woman with whom he was doing this scheme with eventually resigned. So the payroll scheme sort of stopped in a way. Diggs would hire a successor, a person to replace this woman. And this person would discover in Diggs personnel files the payroll kickback scheme. I won't reveal this person to your listeners here. They have to get the book to get it. But here's what happened. The person went through Diggs files, discovered that he had been involved in this payroll kickback scheme, and picked up the phone and called the Justice Department and gave them a tip about what Diggs had been involved in. And this person asked the Justice Department for this person to remain anonymous, not to reveal the name. Okay? My book is the first to reveal the identity of the confidential informer who told the Justice Department about Diggs payroll kickback scheme. Diggs would eventually, Kelly, go on become indicted. He would go on trial and be convicted by unanimous jury of 11 black Americans and one white person convicted him on all counts in the payroll kickback scheme. Diggs would eventually be censored by the Congress, which is the most severe punishment short of expulsion. And he would eventually spend seven months in federal prison for the payroll kickback scheme. He had to resign after being censored and then he went to prison for seven months. He would come out of prison in 1981 and he would live died of a stroke August of 1998. So he lived about 18 years after serving in Congress. He lived after Congress in and around Washington, D.C. and Prince George's county, got involved in local politics in Prince George's county, and as I said, died of a stroke in August of 1998 and was buried next to his mom and dad in Detroit.

Kelly Therese Pollack (44:40)

There is, of course, much more in this book as you note things like the identity of the informant. Can you tell listeners how they can get a copy of the book?

Dr. Marion Orr (44:50)

Yes, your listeners can purchase this book through Amazon.com, you can go online to University of North Carolina Press, that's the publisher of the book. And the book is available in some local bookstores. Go to my website, marianor.com you can learn more about me and learn how to purchase the book also.

Kelly Therese Pollack (45:14)

Great.

Kelly Therese Pollack (45:15)

Is there anything else you wanted to make sure we talk about?

Dr. Marion Orr (45:19)

Yes, I want to underscore this one point. Is this to say that you mentioned that Diggs is sort of not well known and what have you. My attempt is to with this book is to present a restorative and corrective sort of history of this gentleman. And I wanted to say that to your listeners that Congressman Diggs should not be known solely by his downfall and the payroll kickback scheme that sent him to prison and really undermined his his career. Diggs should, on the other hand, be known for and recognized for his tremendous contributions that despite what happened to him, he was a true patriot. He loved his country and he really wanted this country to stand up and be true to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. And so my book, the House of Diggs, is really an attempt to present to the readers biography of a wonderful American that many of us should know more about because of his work. Diggs was a freedom fighter on two continents in North America here in the US And a freedom fighter in Africa.

Kelly Therese Pollack (46:52)

Marian, thank you so much. This was an incredible read. I'm so glad to have learned more about Diggs and it was a pleasure to speak with you.

Dr. Marion Orr (47:00)

Well, thank you. Thanks again for your interest and thank you for your listeners out there.

Podcast Narrator (48:01)

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Kelly Therese Pollack (48:34)

Com.

Podcast Narrator (48:34)

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