Oregon Jon’s Polygraph Test

Summary

Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun: Oregon Jon’s Polygraph Test

Season 4, Episode: Oregon Jon’s Polygraph Test
Release Date: May 24, 2025
Host: Payne Lindsey
Produced by: Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun, host Payne Lindsey delves into a pivotal moment in the investigation of Florence Okpealuk’s disappearance. The episode centers around John, a prime suspect, who voluntarily undergoes a polygraph test in an attempt to clear his name. This detailed examination captures the tension, complexities, and uncertainties surrounding the use of polygraph tests in true crime investigations.

Background of the Case

Florence Okpealuk, a 36-year-old Alaska Native woman, went missing from the Blackfeet Nation Indian Reservation in Northwest Montana. Despite extensive investigations, her disappearance remained unresolved for two years, leaving the community desperate for answers. John, the last person known to have seen Florence, became a suspect under intense scrutiny. Facing mounting suspicion, John took the bold step of subjecting himself to a polygraph test to vindicate his innocence.

Preparing for the Polygraph Test

Payne Lindsey introduces the audience to Jessica, a 20-year polygraph expert from Los Angeles, who arrives in Portland to conduct the test. Payne emphasizes the controversial nature of polygraph tests, acknowledging their debated accuracy and limitations.

Quote:
“A polygraph isn't an answer. It's just a tool. A way to measure how your body reacts when you're asked a question.” — Payne Lindsey [03:22]

Jessica meticulously sets up the polygraph equipment, explaining each component's purpose and the methodology behind the test. The preparation phase underscores the seriousness and technicality of the process, aiming to ensure that the results are as reliable as possible.

First Polygraph Test

John enters the hotel lobby, exuding a calm and confident demeanor. Payne recounts his undercover interactions with John, highlighting the strategic move to conduct the test without Payne’s presence during the initial phase.

Quote:
“I've never been someone who thinks the polygraph test is some sort of holy grail. I take them all with a grain of salt.” — Payne Lindsey [03:22]

During the first test, John answers a series of questions regarding Florence’s disappearance. Notably, when asked, “Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?” John responds, “No.” This answer appears to position him as honest and transparent.

Second Polygraph Test

Subsequent to the first test, Payne decides to film the second polygraph session to provide transparency and additional data. This time, Payne is present in the room, adding another layer of psychological pressure on John.

Quote:
“A polygraph test isn't just a yes or no decision. It's a domino. One that, once pushed, could fall in any direction.” — Payne Lindsey [07:01]

In the second test, under the observation of both Jessica and Payne, John answers the same question differently. When asked again, “Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?” he responds, “Yes.” This direct contradiction raises significant red flags about his credibility and potential involvement in Florence’s disappearance.

Analysis and Implications

The contradictory responses between the two tests create a critical turning point in the investigation. Payne meticulously dissects the discrepancies, questioning the validity and implications of John’s conflicting answers.

Quote:
“His answer the first time when I was not in the room was no, meaning, no, he has not withheld any information. But during the second test, he answered yes.” — Payne Lindsey [40:36]

This inconsistency suggests that John may be hiding crucial information, undermining his claims of innocence. Payne highlights the psychological dynamics at play, considering how external factors such as Payne’s presence might influence John’s behavior and responses.

Conclusion and Future Directions

The episode culminates with Payne pondering the unanswered questions surrounding John’s true involvement in Florence’s disappearance. He reflects on the limitations of polygraph tests and the ongoing quest for truth, emphasizing that the investigation is far from over.

Quote:
“What does John still know that he's not telling me about Florence? Or does he have a good explanation for why he lied about it?” — Payne Lindsey [40:36]

Payne assures the audience that more insights and expert analyses will be shared in upcoming episodes, promising to further unravel the mystery and bring justice for Florence Okpealuk.

Notable Quotes

• “A polygraph isn't an answer. It's just a tool. A way to measure how your body reacts when you're asked a question.” — Payne Lindsey [03:22]
• “A polygraph test isn't just a yes or no decision. It's a domino. One that, once pushed, could fall in any direction.” — Payne Lindsey [07:01]
• “His answer the first time when I was not in the room was no, meaning, no, he has not withheld any information. But during the second test, he answered yes.” — Payne Lindsey [40:36]
• “What does John still know that he's not telling me about Florence? Or does he have a good explanation for why he lied about it?” — Payne Lindsey [40:36]

Final Thoughts

This episode of Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun masterfully balances narrative tension with investigative rigor, shedding light on the complexities of using polygraph tests in criminal investigations. Payne Lindsey’s dedication to uncovering the truth is evident, as he navigates the murky waters of human psychology and forensic science to seek justice for Florence Okpealuk.

For those invested in true crime and the pursuit of justice, this episode offers a compelling look into the challenges and uncertainties that investigators face. As the investigation continues, listeners are left eagerly anticipating the revelations and breakthroughs that Payne and his team will bring to the forefront.

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For more episodes of Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform. Stay tuned for the next installment, where Payne Lindsey will delve deeper into the polygraph data and its implications for the ongoing investigation.

Transcript

[Tenderfoot TV]

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[Maggie Freeman]

From the team that brought you up and Vanished comes an all new podcast that brings you a weekly dose of true crime cases.

[Payne Lindsey]

She's in an unknown area. Do you know if she's here now.

[Jessica]

Or was she released? They said she was released.

[Payne Lindsey]

I'm Payne Lindsey.

[Maggie Freeman]

And I'm Maggie Freeman.

[Payne Lindsey]

This is up and Vanish Weekly.

[Maggie Freeman]

Join me as I talk through cases with special guests and true crime experts.

[Bokeh]

There's gotta be something at the heart of that evidence that they've got.

[Maggie Freeman]

It's gotta be DNA.

[Payne Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Maggie Freeman]

Tune in as Payne Lindsay lays out the crime in true up and vanish style.

[Payne Lindsey]

A late night knock at the door, a missing car and a mysterious shadowy figure caught on camera.

[John]

We cannot see that person's face.

[Payne Lindsey]

Ever.

[John]

Luckiest person in the world.

[Payne Lindsey]

What new evidence will it take to solve one of Florida's most high profile missing persons cases?

[Maggie Freeman]

Up and Vanish Weekly is available now Listen for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tenderfoot TV]

Up and Vanished in the Midnight sun is released every Friday. And brought to you absolutely free. But for ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot [e-mail] or on Apple. Podcasts. Up and Vanished in the Midnight sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical and sexual violence, rape and murder. The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. Thank you so much for listening.

[Payne Lindsey]

Let me start by saying this. I know what you're thinking. A polygraph test. Yeah, I know. They're not admissible in court. They've been debated for decades. And depending on who you ask, they're either a breakthrough tool or complete junk science. The truth is somewhere in the middle. A polygraph isn't an answer. It's just a tool. A way to measure how your body reacts when you're asked a question. That's it. I'm not here to convince you of its accuracy. In fact, anyone out there rolling their eyes right now, I see you. Because, honestly, I'm just as dubious as you are. I've never been someone who thinks the polygraph test is some sort of holy grail. I take them all with a grain of salt. And that's why the context and the circumstances surrounding what you're about to hear are very important to remember. And please hear me clearly. John asked for this himself. He wanted to take this test himself. He wanted us to film it. He wanted you guys to see and to hear it. John wasn't paid to do this. He wants to simply clear his name. And as for me and the family of Florence Ocpialik, we just want the truth. I'm sure, like many of you, I thought there was no way he'd actually go through with this. Surely he was bluffing. But he wasn't. Not one bit. And that in itself already stands for something in my book. And if we're going to do this polygraph test, we have to do it right. Buy the book. No shortcuts, no pressure. Just clean data. Whatever that even means. So let's talk facts. According to some studies, it's claimed that under ideal conditions, polygraph tests can be up to 85 to 90% accurate. But the National Academy of Sciences also warns there can be serious flaws and false positives. But let's also talk history. False confessions, malicious police tactics, misused results. We've all heard this. There's a dark side of this tool, too. So, no, this is Not a verdict. This isn't science fiction. This is just more information, data. Take it or leave it. Because when you're trying to figure out if someone's telling the truth, sometimes the best thing is to just look them in the eye and ask them.

[Jessica]

Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

[Payne Lindsey]

From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is up and vanished in the midnight sun. I'm your host, Payne Lindsay.

[Dylan]

What I worry about is scientifically, what she's gonna say is that there needs to be a control situation where if he sees camera equipment, it's going to stress him out more and give more of an opportunity for people to say, you got a false positive. So the less that there's any sort of obstruction between him and the calligrapher, the more true the data is going to be. What if you don't even see him at first and he just meets the polygrapher and you only see him after the real test? So if you set it up that way, you get the best possible results because he's not going until after the real test.

[Payne Lindsey]

My producer Dylan and I have been going back and forth on this for about a week straight. A polygraph test isn't just a yes or no decision. It's a domino. One that, once pushed, could fall in any direction. And the scary part, we won't know which way until it's already too late. What if John fails miserably? Like really fails? Would he start to unravel in front of us? That's not being dramatic. That's just being real. What I've learned throughout the years is that when you corner someone who's hiding something, there's truly no telling what they might do next. Especially if they feel they're at the end of their road and maybe have nothing else to lose. At the same time, if he passes, public perception could shift instantly. We might even start second guessing things ourselves. Now, it wouldn't take away from all the other crimes he's committed, especially those towards women, which we do have the court documents for. But that's how powerful this moment could be, regardless of anyone's personal opinion of the science behind it. Let's come up with what we think are the hard hitting questions and what could be a resolution to something we care about. The data. We're gonna be by the book about that. I don't want to have any sway. I want to set up the scenario that is an authentic result.

[Jessica]

Nice to meet you. Hi. Nice to meet you.

[John]

Thank you for coming.

[Jessica]

Warren's my pleasure.

[Payne Lindsey]

We flew in a 20 year polygraph expert from Los Angeles to Portland. Her name is Jessica. And she definitely knows her shit. Absolutely. We had a hotel room set aside for the test, and she began unpacking all her gear. Every cord, every sensor, every pulse. Now I'm just watching slowly, feeling the gravity sink in.

[Jessica]

These will go across this upper and lower chest, stomach, and this is the same polygraph that federal and law enforcement agencies use.

[Payne Lindsey]

Meanwhile, I keep refreshing my phone, waiting for Oregon John's text. He just landed in Portland, too.

[Jessica]

And the blood pressure cuff.

[Payne Lindsey]

I've done dozens and dozens of interviews. I've talked to murder suspects, even serial killers. I've walked into some pretty dark places, but this, today, was making me feel a new kind of nervous, because this wasn't just a conversation. This was a psychological reaction.

[Jessica]

In between each question. We have to allow 20 seconds at least for his body to calm down from each question. They're also going to be peppered in with some controlled questions. So you've got relevant questions. Then I need to pepper in some controlled questions or known truths. Remember, this is a lie detector. It's not a truth detector. So your body doesn't react to something. Like if I ask you if your favorite color is red, but it's really blue, and you say yes, there's no consequence for that. Right. It only reacts to relevant questions where you might lie. Like, did you rob the bank last night? And you say no, but you really did, it would react to your microscopic changes in your body chemistry. The knees will go across this upper and lower chest, stomach. And this is the same polygraph that federal and law enforcement agencies use for both their law enforcement officers and suspects. I'm going to turn this on. I'm not going to leave it running, because it will freeze if you leave it running.

[Payne Lindsey]

So in terms of the questions, they have to be yes or no, right?

[Jessica]

Something you can answer with a yes or a no with your mouth only. So you want to have this person sit like a statue for not more than four or five minutes. We're going to pepper in the relevant questions with some controlled questions or known truths so that we keep a good baseline of what his body does when he's telling the truth, so that when he's asked a relevant question, we can see his internal reaction.

[Payne Lindsey]

The last time I saw John, I was undercover. I catfished him. And I was about to meet him face to face for the first time as the real me. No masks, no fake names. Everything seemed to be going smoothly, Almost too smoothly. I checked my phone again. John is now in his Uber eight minutes away.

[Jessica]

Some people can control to a certain extent, maybe they're breathing or something. But you can't control everything one way or another. Your breathing will react or your blood pressure or the internal sweat that's gorge your fingertips. But you have to give the body time to calm down between each question. That's why you're asked controlled questions in between or known truths in between. You don't want to just keep them elevated that that defeats the purpose. You will not get an accurate reading like that. So four relevant or questions of importance, each chart coupled in with the controlled questions or the known truths.

[Payne Lindsey]

ETA two minutes. I'm about to meet John in the hotel lobby. It's time to put my game face on and finish what I started. And right before I headed down, Jessica had one last question for me.

[Jessica]

Do you want to administer the questions.

[Payne Lindsey]

Or me by the book. I would like you to.

[Jessica]

Okay.

[Payne Lindsey]

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[Maggie Freeman]

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[Payne Lindsey]

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[John]

But yeah.

[Payne Lindsey]

So Airbnb workout.

[John]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Payne Lindsey]

I meet John in the lobby. He walked in, cool, calm, cheery. Almost years ago. So when's the last time you were actually in Oregon? Maybe even a little bit cocky?

[John]

I left semester school to go to Alaska.

[Payne Lindsey]

But confidence isn't truth. It's also sometimes a mask people wear when they want to control the room. Probably a lot similar to the one I'm wearing right now. So this was it. The wires, the questions, the silence. It's strange watching a man walk into a room to be judged by machines. And you start to ask yourself, do I even want the truth? Am I afraid of what it actually might confirm? Then you have the flip side. Two years into an investigation the police gave up on a missing Alaska native woman, Florence Okpialik. And the person who last saw her alive, as we know it, is about to sit down in the hot seat. There's no turning back now. And so the test begins.

[Jessica]

Are you ready to start the test?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Is today Friday?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Aquila?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Have you ever ridden on a train?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Do you know what happened to Florence?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Do you know how to make pancakes?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

[John]

Yes.

[Payne Lindsey]

You heard it. There it is. But here's the twist. If you watched this first on Instagram Live last week, you didn't see the whole thing. This was by design for the best interest of all parties here. What you saw and what you just listened to was actually a second polygraph test. That's because during the first test, we took extreme measures to ensure that John was in the least stressful environment possible. No me, no cameras in his face, no lights, no added pressure. Just John, Jessica, and the polygraph machine. So let's rewind a bit back to the first test. This test happened immediately after me bringing John upstairs. She'll explain everything, and I'm just gonna let you guys do your thing and take your time. Okay.

[John]

I've actually done voice stress analysis, too.

[Jessica]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Payne Lindsey]

Thank you again for doing this. And take your time.

[Jessica]

Sure.

[Payne Lindsey]

We'll be out here. I just want. I want to be. I want to just let it. Yeah, it's one like, you know what I'm saying?

[Jessica]

Cool.

[Payne Lindsey]

I don't want to be, like, staring over your shoulder or something. You know what I'm saying? Y' all can both text me if you need me.

[Jessica]

We'll just be.

[Payne Lindsey]

All detailed to it.

[John]

Okay.

[Payne Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

All right.

[John]

You know, I used to work for the government and stuff. I have to. Had to take a couple of leads and.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[John]

You know, just to get hired.

[Jessica]

You do?

[John]

I was a contractor. I worked for the census department.

[Jessica]

Oh, okay.

[John]

I was a.

[Jessica]

Then you're familiar with.

[John]

I was actually went to Quantico and got profiler job.

[Jessica]

Oh, wow.

[John]

I worked at Guantanamo for three years. My religious beliefs. I help a lot of people that are in bad situations. That's how this situation arose. And I asked for this.

[Jessica]

Okay.

[John]

Because I've been being harassed, you know, and people just believe the worst. I live in a small town. In 2000, we have tourists. It's Ketchikan, Alaska. This originally happened in Nome, Alaska, which only has 12, 1,200 people. Therefore, the rumor mill in very small towns.

[Jessica]

I. Yes.

[John]

You know, I've been assaulted. I've been run up the road.

[Payne Lindsey]

Oh, my God.

[John]

I have to carry a firearm. Everywhere I go up there, the police know about it. They've had to respond multiple times. They already did their own investigation, you know, and it's.

[Jessica]

And what happened with that one? Did they. Were you cleared or.

[John]

Well, they. They can't find anything on me. There's no current case, you know, so. Gnome PD, they call them. They don't even really remember who I am even.

[Jessica]

All right, well, are you ready for a polygraph test tonight?

[John]

Oh, yeah.

[Jessica]

So no drugs, no alcohol.

[John]

I did have a half a drink on the plane yesterday. Here, it was about two.

[Jessica]

That's okay. My question would be, are you hydrated with water?

[John]

I just drink about two or three of these a day.

[Jessica]

Holy cow.

[John]

I'm also a merchant seaman.

[Payne Lindsey]

I.

[John]

Which. That's a lot of background checks. I volunteered for this. And he seemed kind of shocked because they kind of. That's good, you know, because they.

[Jessica]

I. I don't know. No, no, no, it was good.

[Payne Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Jessica]

I don't know anything about that.

[John]

He's giving me the opportunity to completely clear my bed. And that's why I'm here.

[Jessica]

Well, we'll do the test. We'll do a test without him in here. And then when, when we're done. So I've been doing this since the night 1990s. I'm gonna ask you a series of questions, and in between each question, we're going to give you like 20 seconds. There's four relevant questions I'm going to ask you regarding this case. And then it'll be peppered in with some controlled questions. Or what we know is known truths, like is the sky blue? Along with a couple of questions that are meant to embarrass you. Like, have you ever sold change out of your parents wallet when you were a little boy? Or, you know, something like that. Just, it's just to get a baseline correct. So you're very familiar with this. So I'm gonna hook you up to the equipment and it's going to be an upper lower thoracic, which is your breathing. Measures your breathing along with a blood pressure cuff and gsr, which is A galvanized skin response, which we will put on your fingertips. So you're going to just answer yes or no, and you're going to sit like a statue for like four or five minutes at the most. I won't.

[John]

We'll do that.

[Jessica]

And then after the first chart, we can call pain in. And then. And don't move, so make sure you don't move. Okay. Like I said, you're gonna sit like a statue. So are you ready? Okay, so I'm gonna. You don't need to stand up for me. I'm gonna get this chain around you, so keep on going over your head and lean back a little bit forward.

[John]

Okay.

[Jessica]

And I want it snug, but not too tight. One more, and then we're. And then you push your arms down. I'm gonna put this on your arm for the blood pressure. And then leave this hand here. And I will put these on here. So I appreciate you volunteering for this.

[John]

Well, Tina, it'll help the investigation. Concentrate on where it should be.

[Jessica]

There you go. See, that's good. You're doing another good deed. And you can just relax right there. Okay. Take a deep breath for me. Are you ready to start the test?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Is today Sunday?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Have you ever eaten at McDonald's?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

All right, this is a relevant question. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Opila?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you ever flown on an airplane?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Is Florence Ocpilock alive?

[John]

Unknown.

[Jessica]

Do you know how to ride a bike?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

In the last year, have you ever been pulled over by a police officer and lied to get out of a ticket?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Okay. Do you know what happened to Florence?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Are there other people involved in her disappearance?

[John]

Unknown.

[Jessica]

Did you ever sneak out of the house when you were a little boy?

[John]

Try it on me.

[Jessica]

Doesn't matter. It's not a relevant question.

[John]

Me, too.

[Jessica]

Yes or no?

[Payne Lindsey]

Need.

[Jessica]

Best of your.

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Okay. Okay. That is. That is the end of our first chart. All right, I'm So that chart was stopped. I'm going to start a new chart.

[John]

Okay.

[Jessica]

Are you comfortable? You want to drink water?

[John]

I took a couple while we were talking.

[Jessica]

Okay. All right. Got your breathing, blood pressure. All right. Are you ready to start the test?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Okay. Do you know how to ride a bicycle?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Have you ever ridden on a train?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

When you were a teenager? Did you ever steal from a grocery store?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Do you know how to ride a horse?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Okay. Do you know what happened to Florence?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Before today, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

All right, we're done with this chart. I'm gonna let Pain know. So have you told the truth about everything that you know about Florence?

[John]

Are we back on?

[Jessica]

No. I was just asking.

[John]

Oh, yes.

[Payne Lindsey]

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[John]

What happened was, is I gave her a ride. I met her earlier through my girlfriend. Bought a bunch of drink.

[Jessica]

Yeah. We have a timer, so we only need 20 to 30 seconds of question to give his body time to settle down. Yeah. So, I mean, they're federal standardized polygraphs. You can only keep someone hooked up for so long.

[John]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsey]

Right before it's becoming ridiculous.

[Jessica]

Yeah. So now the third set.

[Payne Lindsey]

Here came the first monkey wrench. John felt that some of the questions I prepared for him were unfair because in a polygraph test you must answer yes or no questions only. And I agree with him because if he doesn't actually know something, then he couldn't really answer yes or no. So on the fly, right there in the room, I quickly made up two new questions. I showed Jessica. She approved. And then John began asking why we weren't filming this test. I explained it to him that I wanted to give him an opportunity to take this polygraph without all the theatrics even admitting to him that it'd probably make me nervous too. But I stepped out once more so they could finish the first test. To me, that would feel like, like nerve wracking, get cameras out of my face kind of thing.

[John]

I was kind of actually expecting that. No, no, I was. And I was kind of hoping for it so that this actually happened.

[Payne Lindsey]

So I'm not, I'm not. That's why I'm here now.

[Jessica]

Right.

[Payne Lindsey]

So I wanted to give you more data.

[John]

Yeah. So My point here is for everyone to know that this actually happened.

[Payne Lindsey]

So this one, I'll be here. I won't say anything, but I will going to film this one. Shackle?

[Jessica]

Yeah. Okay.

[Payne Lindsey]

So here we go. Round two. I guess John wants this next one filmed. No problem. We had to adjust two of the questions, so once they were back set up, I left the room once more to let them finish. But now we at least have two sets of data to compare. By the end of all these sessions, he respected that, and I also respected the fact that he wanted the world to see him for his own vindication. I left the room once more to let them finish the test, and once they were done, we planned on filming the next one. I sat down at this tiny table and positioned myself quietly at the edge, pulled out my iPhone and just started filming.

[Jessica]

Are you ready to start the test?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Is today Friday?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Aquila?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

Have you ever ridden on a train?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Do you know what happened to Florence?

[John]

No.

[Jessica]

In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Do you know how to make pancakes?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Okay. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

[John]

Yes.

[Jessica]

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

[John]

Yes.

[Payne Lindsey]

You heard this test already in the very beginning of the episode. But it wasn't until 24 hours later, once I got back home, thousands of miles away from here, that I noticed something very odd from the first test he took with Jessica. After all, I wasn't in the room, so this was the first time I had heard any of the audio from it. This is where things start to unravel a bit. Let's go back to that first test, the one where I'm not there. It's just the two of them. And let's rewind back to that very last question.

[Jessica]

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

[John]

No.

[Payne Lindsey]

Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked? Pretty straightforward, in my opinion. His answer the first time when I was not in the room was no, meaning, no, he has not withheld any information regarding Florence to anyone else who's asked. Not the police, anyone, including me. Okay, but what stranger is that during the second test, the one where I'm there literally sitting across the table, he has a completely different answer.

[Jessica]

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

[John]

Yes.

[Payne Lindsey]

Yes. So you are withholding information. He was asked the same question twice and it wasn't a complicated one. First test, no. Second test, Oddly enough, when I'm in the room with him, his answer is yes. This wasn't a polygraph reading. This wasn't a twitch in the needle. It was a verbal contradiction. You heard it. Even if I try to play devil's advocate here and come up with a million reasons why he answered the questions differently, the irony behind all of this makes everything different. Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked that very question is the sole reason John is here in the first place? Because John has swore to me up and down for hours upon hours on the phone that he has in fact told me all he knows, which is why he came here today to prove to me and anyone else that that's true. So what is he holding back? Anything? Was it just a word slip up, take the polygraph out entirely? And what you have is a man giving two completely different answers to the same question within a 20 minute period. A question that's tethered to the entire reason he's here today. Before we packed up, I gave John the chance to say, well, whatever he'd like to on record to the family, the community. You guys, I want to give you the opportunity just to say why you chose to do this today. Your piece, and so people can see that and, and whatever you want to add, also want to say thank you for being a man of your word. I just like you want to move on through life and keep searching for the truth.

[John]

Truth is very important to me. It's part of my beliefs and my religion and everything. And the reason, to be honest, the biggest reason why I wanted to do this was to give my life a little peace. Flo and Flo's family deserves to know that this area here is not, you know, to concentrate, to be able to look at other places. Because as long as the suspicion is upon me, it's not going to be looked at in other places or as much.

[Payne Lindsey]

I don't want to be barking up the wrong tree either, you know?

[John]

Yeah. And nobody deserves anything like this to happen to him. And if anything I can do to help, I. I have to.

[Payne Lindsey]

Well, thanks again, man. I'm glad. It was a relief question.

[John]

Did I pass.

[Payne Lindsey]

The question? We all want to know, right? But let's talk for a second here. I know how split the audience will be on any polygraph result at all. If you're someone who firmly believes it's all junk Science, or if you're someone who has a lot of faith in this test for whatever reason, or you're somewhere in the middle, I want you to ask yourself right now, will these results do anything for you? Or have you already made up your mind? I told Jessica to hold off on telling anyone, even myself, what the results were until the entire test was over and everyone was out of that building and back in a safe place. A few hours later, after she had a chance to review the charts, I came back in and asked myself, and before you hear this, I want you to remember everything I've said about polygraph tests. They're debated amongst the science community. Inadmissible in court. It's just a tool. Remember that. Now, what's your reaction going to be? You can wait until pain gets back, of course.

[Jessica]

Yeah, I'll wait. So I don't have to repeat.

[John]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jessica]

But I mean, good for him coming in to do it.

[Payne Lindsey]

So what we think so.

[Jessica]

Let me look at the. Let me pull these up so I can accurately. Even though I know some off the top of my head. So did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know, regarding Florence, his disappearance? There were signs of deception. Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked on that one? There were signs of deception and I think he moved on that one too. So I can't say with 100 accuracy because of the movement that he did. Have you ever had social contact with Florence? Definite Val. The two that were the ones where we had to change that. Is Florence alive? He was him hang and he didn't know how to answer it.

[Payne Lindsey]

So he didn't want to confirm yes or no and correct. I get the.

[Jessica]

And also the one where are there other people. People involved in her disappearance? It was showing deception, even though. But he was also moving. He was him hawing because he wasn't sure how to answer it.

[Payne Lindsey]

Didn't he also answer yes to one of the questions he.

[Jessica]

He did. He did answer yes.

[Payne Lindsey]

So to a question about withholding information.

[Jessica]

Right. So that's what I was going to say. So the first time he didn't, but the second time he did.

[Payne Lindsey]

I don't know. When I was in here, he said.

[Jessica]

When he said yes, that one was true, that he withheld information.

[Payne Lindsey]

He failed questions, big ones, in fact. He contradicted himself. He spiked off the charts when asked about having sexual contact with Florence, which is strange enough, considering sex itself isn't a crime unless it was non consensual. So I'm going to let that resonate with you. It is what it is. But next week I'll have Jessica on the podcast to further explain in detail all this data from the tests. And as for me, a major question still remains. What does John still know that he's not telling me about Florence? Or does he have a good explanation for why he lied about it? What you heard today was real. What it all means. Part of that's up to you. Stay tuned next week for another episode of up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. And thank you again to John for being a man of your word in making the effort to do this in the first place. Our investigation into Florence and Joseph isn't over. Don't you guys know me by now? We have even more new information that is going to change everything. I'm looking at it on my computer screen right now, but it's not for clicks, y' all. One step at a time. The truth is what I care about. See you next week.

[Tenderfoot TV]

Up and Vanished in the Midnight sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional Production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanique, Glenn and Eric Quintana. Artwork by by Rob Sheridan Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set mix and mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show.

[John]

Notes.

[Tenderfoot TV]

For more podcasts like up and Banished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.