Q&A 9.26.24

Summary

Up and Vanished: Q&A Episode – September 26, 2024

In the Up and Vanished Q&A episode released on September 26, 2024, host Thrasher Banks alongside co-hosts Mike Rooney and Cooper engage with their audience by addressing a series of listener-submitted questions. This episode offers deeper insights into the ongoing investigations featured in Season 4, particularly focusing on the cases of Florence Okpealuk and Joseph Balderas in Nome, Alaska. Below is a detailed summary of the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. Focus on Oregon John and Other Suspects

Question: Are there any other suspects or persons of interest besides Oregon John?

Thrasher Banks ([03:29]):
"Oregon John is front and center of Flo's case because, as far as we know, he's the last person to see her alive. Just plain and simple. Had her belongings in his tent. There are definitely other people’s names that have been brought up. We have censored a few of them and we've talked to a few of them. No matter how you slice it, his name comes up in the story no matter what, that night when Flo went missing, and he remains at the center of the investigation."

Banks emphasizes that while Oregon John is the primary focus due to his connection as the last known person to see Florence alive, the investigation remains open to other potential suspects. He clarifies that the first eight episodes primarily covered Florence's case, but the investigation is ongoing with plans for more episodes.

Cooper ([04:50]):
"Yeah, that's probably the most often asked question that we get is that, did we forget about anyone? And it's like, no, we didn't."

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2. Investigative Process and Podcast Production Decisions

Question: How far in advance do you start working on a case before production begins on the podcast? Did you know from the beginning Flo's disappearance would be the subject of the next season?

Thrasher Banks ([05:30]):
"We work pretty far in advance because we know as soon as the podcast is out, the cat's out of the bag and our investigating strategy has to change completely. We worked for, I want to say, almost close to a year on Flo and Joseph's cases before the podcast came out."

Banks explains that the team conducts extensive research and groundwork approximately a year before launching the podcast to ensure a comprehensive investigation. The decision to cover both Florence and Joseph's cases was strategic, enhanced by the alignment of listener interest and connections drawn by their sound designer, Cooper, who is from Alaska.

Cooper ([06:24]):
"The stars kind of aligned because not only were these families reaching out, but one of the sound designers... is actually from Alaska. So that was a little more incentive, right, for you to go to Alaska and do a story or do cases in Alaska?"

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3. Ensuring Safety During Investigations

Question: When you and your production team meet someone potentially dangerous like Oregon John, do you have any protection with you?

Thrasher Banks ([07:34]):
"It depends on what you mean by protection. We actually debated a lot on whether or not we should be armed in certain situations. This season, specifically, the state of Alaska seems to be pretty loose on guns. We try to protect ourselves by being ten steps ahead and thinking about every worst-case scenario."

Banks discusses the deliberations the team had regarding personal safety, ultimately deciding against carrying weapons. They focus instead on strategic planning and situational awareness to mitigate risks during interviews and meetings.

Cooper ([09:04]):
"We were trying to avoid bringing that thought into the mix... We're just simply trying to ask questions. And so we're not trying to combat anybody. If anything, we're deescalating from the start."

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4. Interaction with Oregon John

Question: How much time passed from when you first reached out to Oregon John to when you actually met him?

Thrasher Banks ([10:48]):
"I want to say about eight months. I sent a message on Facebook from this fake Facebook account that I have way, way early on, and he actually responded to me."

Banks recounts the strategic approach taken to contact Oregon John, which involved initiating communication months in advance to build rapport and legitimacy, leading to their eventual meeting.

Cooper ([12:04]):
"It was really a puzzle that ultimately you figured out, Payne, how to find him, which... we were racking our brains for days trying to figure out where he was going to be."

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5. Theories About Florence’s Disappearance

Question: Is there any validity to Oregon John's theory that Florence's body was stuffed in a barrel on a meth dealer's property?

Thrasher Banks ([15:40]):
"He's the only person I've heard tell a story like that. No one else that I've talked to at all has made that bold of a claim or assertion. Maybe he said it because he wanted to move on in the conversation."

Banks expresses skepticism regarding Oregon John's theory, noting that it is an isolated claim not corroborated by other sources. He suggests that John may have fabricated the story to shift the conversation away from pressing questions.

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6. Handling Community and Discord Engagement

Question: What's up with the Discord? How's that working out for you?

Thrasher Banks ([23:06]):
"The Discord is insane... It's an investigative tool. It's not really like a fan club group or discussion. It's a place where people can speak anonymously and a place where we can hopefully find new leads and try to control the chaos as much as possible."

Banks describes the Discord server as a critical component for gathering anonymous tips and leads, despite challenges such as trolling and misinformation. He acknowledges the platform's value in engaging the community while highlighting the difficulties in moderating such an active space.

Mike Rooney ([24:26]):
"It's gonna happen no matter what."

---

7. Updates on Joseph’s Case and Credit Card Statements

Question: Was Joseph’s cell phone recovered, and was there useful information from it?

Cooper ([26:06]):
"They never found Joseph's phone, unfortunately. There's really only one cell tower in Gnome, so there's no way to triangulate his location that weekend."

Thrasher Banks ([26:31]):
"We know his WhatsApp messages to his fiancée because we have her ends of the conversation, but we don't have Christine's because she wiped her phone or something."

Question: What about Joseph’s credit card statements showing usage after his disappearance?

Thrasher Banks ([28:31]):
"We've done a lot of homework on that. It seems like the birthdays punched in were random, possibly from the same person or group. We plan on sharing more specifics soon."

Banks outlines ongoing efforts to investigate unauthorized use of Joseph's credit card, indicating potential leads related to recurring purchases that may point to a single individual or group involved.

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8. Involvement of the PCOA Family and Patterns of Lying

Question: What updates are there regarding the PCOA family’s involvement and patterns of lying among locals?

Thrasher Banks ([32:41]):
"There are people we have interviews with who have repeatedly lied on different occasions, and their stories don't match up. There's a pattern of lying from people related to each other, which is concerning."

Banks highlights a troubling pattern of dishonesty among certain individuals connected to the case, raising questions about their involvement and integrity. He emphasizes the need for transparency and urges those with information to come forward.

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9. Future of Up and Vanished

Question: Are there plans to continue deep dives into Florence’s case and Oregon John?

Thrasher Banks ([41:08]):
"Absolutely yes. We already have so much new information that we're compiling and putting together. We plan on doing another installment of at least eight episodes that focus on both cases in tandem."

Banks assures listeners that the investigation will continue, with more episodes dedicated to uncovering further details about Florence and Joseph's cases. He indicates ongoing discoveries and the intention to provide comprehensive coverage as new information becomes available.

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10. Concluding Remarks

The episode wraps up with Banks inviting listeners to join their Discord community for deeper engagement and reminding them of the collaborative nature of their investigative efforts. He reiterates the commitment to uncovering the truth behind the disappearances and encourages ongoing support from the audience.

Mike Rooney ([42:13]):
"We really appreciate you sending us these questions and showing us how interested you are in this investigation. It fuels us to keep going and in turn it allows us to give you better content."

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Notable Quotes:

• Thrasher Banks ([07:34]):
  "We try to protect ourselves by being ten steps ahead and thinking about every worst-case scenario."

• Thrasher Banks ([15:40]):
  "He's the only person I've heard tell a story like that... Maybe he said it because he wanted to move on in the conversation."

• Thrasher Banks ([32:41]):
  "The lies go beyond that... We have a pattern of lying from people related to each other."

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This Q&A episode provides listeners with an in-depth look into the complexities of investigative journalism within true crime storytelling. Thrasher Banks, along with his team, demonstrates a methodical approach to uncovering truths while navigating the challenges of community engagement and safety. As the season progresses, fans can anticipate further revelations and comprehensive analyses of the cases gripping Nome, Alaska.

Transcript

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[Thrasher Banks]

When I stumbled upon an old box full of VHS tapes and police reports, I didn't expect to uncover connections to several unsolved murders near my hometown. I've been investigating how these murders could be connected to a group called the Lords of Death. Check out this clip from the show.

[Mick]

So Tim had a tattoo on his arm that was just letters. It said lod. And I asked Mick what LOD stood for and I was told it stood for Lords of Death. So I asked, you know, for the meaning behind it. And only a couple people had the tattoo, apparently. And in order to get the tattoo you had to take someone's soul, as in murder someone is what I was told. But it never really clicked with me that it was like they were really the Lords of Death. I could just see them being like, yeah, cool, we're the Lords of Death. And it really meaning nothing is how I looked at it. But I was wrong. It meant a lot.

[Thrasher Banks]

I'm Thrasher Banks, host of the new Tenderfoot TV podcast Lords of Death. For an ad free binge, subscribe to Tenderfoot [e-mail] up and vanished in the.

[Payne Lindsey]

Midnight sun is released every Thursday and brought to you absolutely free. But for ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts up and Vanished in the Midnight sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting such as emotional, physical and sexual violence, rape and murder. The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. Thank you so much for listening.

[Mike Rooney]

Welcome to a new episode of up and Vanished. This episode is going to be a question and answer episode. We've collected a lot of your questions and we're going to do Our best to have Payne and Mike and myself occasionally answer them and give you the best answers that we can with what we can tell. Obviously, there are still a lot of moving pieces and there are a lot of things that we can't talk about yet. But we're happy to answer as many questions as we can. So I'd love to introduce the one and only Payne Lindsey and Mike Rooney. We're just going to start here at the top of our list, and we're just going to work our way down, answer as many as we can. So, first question. Hey, Payne, you spend a lot of time focusing on Oregon John, and I think some of it is warranted, but are there any other suspects, persons of interest?

[Thrasher Banks]

Oregon John is front and center of Flo's case because as far as we know, he's the last person to see her alive. Just plain and simple. Had her belongings in his tent. There are definitely other people names that have been brought up. We have censored a few of them and we've talked to a few of them. No matter how you slice it, his name comes up in the story no matter what, that night when Flo went missing, and he remains at the center of the investigation. But there are other people that we are aware of and other theories that also involve John himself that we've been looking into as well. And just to clarify for everyone, the first eight episodes were mostly about Florence, and as a listener, it might sound like we have stopped investigating her case, but it's truly exactly the opposite. We plan on doing a lot more episodes of this season, and there will be a third installment of this season that shifts the focus back to Flo's investigation and continues on with Joseph's as well.

[Cooper]

Yeah, that's. That's probably the most often asked question that we get is that, did we forget about anyone? And it's like, no, we didn't.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah, quite the contrary. I've learned more about Flo's case in the last couple of months than I have in the last two years, and you will hear all of that.

[Mike Rooney]

So this next question comes from Christine. How far in advance do you start working on a case before production begins on the podcast? Did you know from the beginning Flo's disappearance would be the subject of the next season? And if not, at what point is that decision made?

[Thrasher Banks]

We work pretty far in advance because we know as soon as, like, once the podcast is out, the cat's out of the bag and our investigating strategy has to change completely. We worked for, I want to say, Almost close to a year on Flo and Joseph's cases before the podcast came out, we were in gnome. No one besides the people that we talked to and interviewed really knew what we were doing there. So we didn't stick out like that. We definitely would now, I believe, but we made a conscious collective decision to cover both of these cases this season right from the get go. After receiving the emails from their families and just doing some of our own preliminary research.

[Cooper]

Yeah, the stars kind of aligned because not only were these families reaching out, but one of the sound designer, the guy who mixed in Masters Cooper, who's not here right now, is actually from Alaska. So that was a little more incentive, right, for you to go to Alaska and do a story or do cases in Alaska?

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah, he first showed me the story and we have thousands of emails and in the up and vanish inbox, 10 or foot inbox, just everywhere. Right. And I just typed in gnome and there were two emails and they were from the families. And like, to me that was like a stars aligning moment and it just looked like there was a lot of bad stuff happening in this place. And the families were familiar with this podcast and wanted our help to put it in the spotlight and try to find out as much as we could.

[Mike Rooney]

This next question comes from Maxime. I'm just curious, when you and your production team go and meet someone that could be dangerous like Oregon John, do you have some sort of protection with you?

[Thrasher Banks]

It depends on what you mean by protection. I mean, we actually debated. Yeah, not bodyguards, if that's what you're referring to. We actually debated a lot on whether or not we should be armed in certain situations. This season, specifically, the state of Alaska seems to be pretty loose on guns out there, really. Like, we try to protect ourselves in being 10 steps ahead and thinking about every worst case scenario. And if it goes this way, we have a plan for it, and if it goes that way, we have a plan for it. And so when meeting someone like Oregon John, that was probably the craziest thing we've all collectively done thus far. And we didn't know how that would go or if it would even go, but we knew that if we were in a public place and out in the open, there was only so much that could happen in all likelihood, but still a very scary, real risk that we were taking and, you know, took took very seriously because we were not trying to get hurt out here either, so.

[Cooper]

Right. And honestly, it's. It's just, it feels a little icky. Googling, like how do you get on a plane with a gun like that? Never felt.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah. It's like we were trying to avoid, like, bringing that thought into the mix just sort of almost creates this, you know, like, war scenario that we're. We're just simply trying to ask questions. And so we're not trying to combat anybody. If anything, we're deescalating from the start or at least trying to.

[Cooper]

Yeah. And I think bringing a gun to any situation is just. You're. You're asking to escalate it. Like, you're saying this is more of just asking questions, just trying to get someone on the record. Bringing a gun to that kind of situation is probably like you're putting some weird not intentions in your head, but.

[Thrasher Banks]

You know, you're putting it out there.

[Cooper]

Yeah, you're being a little more paranoid. So I remember we quickly abandoned the idea of, like, traveling with a gun or any.

[Thrasher Banks]

It's like, yeah, are we planning on using it? It's like, I hope. I hope not. Right. So I think there's a lot to be said about the element of surprise. And when something happens all of a sudden, if you just pop up somewhere and randomly start talking to somebody and interviewing them or ask them questions about a case, there's a moment where they're still figuring out what's going on, and you already know exactly what's going on. Regardless of how nervous I am, they're still piecing it together, and by the time they are or do at all, it's over. Sometimes in situations, in some situations like.

[Mike Rooney]

That, this question comes from Lauren. She wants to know how much time passed from when you first reached out to Oregon John to when you actually met him.

[Thrasher Banks]

I want to say about eight months. I sent a message on Facebook from this fake Facebook account that I have way, way early on, and he actually responded to me, and I just kind of acted like he might know who I am or something, or just, you know, I think I said something like, how's Alaska been? Or, I don't know, something like that. And he responded probably like eight months later when we were on the mission to find out where he was and go and try to actually interview him is when we kind of were in the dilemma of do we approach him this way or that way? And so regardless, I started messaging him again from that same account, just being friendly also to try to find out where he was, because we didn't really know and no one knew. So I think planting the seed of that first message eight months earlier is why he probably met with us in the first place. I think that it would have been way more sus looking if we just came out of the woodwork and said, hey, do you want to meet tomorrow? Just out of the blue?

[Cooper]

It was really a puzzle that ultimately you figured out Payne how to find him, which I don't know if you want to talk about, but yeah, just we were racking our brains for days trying to figure out where he was going to be when.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah. And we had several other plans ready to go and then realized that that's not going to work. Oh wow. He's not even going to be there. So where is he going to be? We're not going to go to his house. And so like how do we meet him out in public And I mean you heard all that in the Finding John episode. But yeah, we really did not know what to expect. But I think that the original Facebook message I sent about eight months prior is what brought some validity to in his eyes of why he should meet this stranger.

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[Mike Rooney]

Sabrina asks now that the podcast is out, does Oregon John know who you are?

[Thrasher Banks]

Oregon John most certainly knows who I am. Hi John. Yeah, we knew that eventually that was going to happen. Right. Just based on past experiences. You know, V dog, the one of the main persons of interest in season three, Ashley's case. Cooper and I flew out specifically to Montana one week to go find him and talk to him. And if you recall, it didn't go over that well. He didn't want to talk. Right. And looking back, that was a more dangerous situation than Oregon John because we were up on this hill way out in the middle of nowhere and I was in his house waiting for him to come upstairs, just making small talk with his roommate once he learned why I was there and what I wanted to talk about. He was pretty pissed about it and just kind of reflecting back on that, you know, I asked as many questions as I could as I was walking out the door, as he's asking me to leave his property and doing all those things. But you can only learn so much in a couple of minutes. He's, like, being defensive, and he's. It's not an actual interview or conversation that you could yield a lot of beneficial evidence from if there was any to be found.

[Mike Rooney]

During your conversation with Oregon John at the bar, he mentions this crazy theory that her body was stuffed in a barrel on some meth dealer's property. So the question is, Danielle asks, is there any validity to that theory, and have you heard that from anyone else?

[Thrasher Banks]

He's the only person I've heard tell a story like that. I've heard, like, the specific being in a barrel in someone's house. No one else that I've talked to at all has made that bold of a claim or assertion. Maybe if you look back, John claims that she's dead, murdered, and knows who did it. No one has said that besides him. And so I don't believe that story. But I think we know some of the people he might have been referring to in that narrative that he gave to us. But my gut is that he just said that because he wanted to move on in the conversation. And you got to remember, we were at the bar with John for over two hours, and we didn't just talk about Gnome in Florence the whole time, because that would have been very weird. It naturally came up in conversation super early when he talked about gold mining in Gnome. And then we just kind of kept it going and why'd you leave? And so really, the hardest part of that conversation was trying to find ways to go back to that conversation again when he wanted to talk about other things.

[Cooper]

Yeah, he really wanted to talk about guns and his wife and not about Gnome. But, yeah, I think you're right. I think he was trying to put some finality on it where he was even saying the FBI solved it or found the guy.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah, he's like, that's over. That's what I got out of that, was that, yeah, she was murdered and put in a barrel, and it's under this meth dealer's house. And, you know, they thought it was me, but it. You know, but they. They solved it. It's good now because we were playing dumb. Like, we don't. Like we don't know shit about this case. But I think he said that just to. Yeah, like, he Said Mike, to close it out and move on.

[Mike Rooney]

Will any of the footage or audio tape of John be admissible from the FBI or the known police?

[Thrasher Banks]

Admissible? I think that only refers to the courtroom if, you know, if a judge finds this tape admissible based on xyz. I'm not an expert in that area. I think in terms of a police investigation, absolutely. If there's a recording of somebody that says something suspicious or, you know, slips out some sort of admission of something, then police always use that kind of stuff.

[Mike Rooney]

Whitney says, what made you want to go deeper into your own experience while making this season? I really love hearing more about your own emotions, feelings, experiences while tackling this case.

[Thrasher Banks]

Well, first of all, thank you. Because Reddit does not, uh, to me, the experience is so. Is so bizarre and so real, and sometimes in an episode, it can sound super cinematic and almost in some way, maybe like, take away from the reality of it all. And so just kind of reflecting back on three seasons of up and Vanished, I wanted to kind of pull the curtain back a little bit more and let you hear some of those inside conversations, the stuff that happens before and after, and take you into my head in a moment just to, like, take you there as close as I can, because that's what we experienced. That's how I experienced it. And I think that it shows how high the stakes really are and is also a reminder of how real these people's lives are. And that, to me, is of utmost importance.

[Cooper]

Yeah, I think it's a reflection of, you know, your evolution as, like, a, you know, podcast host.

[Thrasher Banks]

I can already see someone on Reddit or somewhere. There he goes, patting himself on the back again. So go ahead and shut up. But I like the question, and I appreciate that you appreciated that part of in the Midnight Sun. I wanted to let you in a little bit more. You can view that, hear that. However, I can't control that. But for me, sincerely, it was being more vulnerable. And I felt like that was. That's important in stories like this, to give you as much context as possible and also help gain trust with other people. You know, just being real and being real with them and, you know, not being afraid to show what's going on.

[Mike Rooney]

Mickey asks, what's the hardest part about creating a podcast in Alaska? The locals seem receptive to you solving this case.

[Thrasher Banks]

Honestly, like, 99% of the people in Gnome, from my experience that I've talked to, were super helpful. They wanted to talk, even if they were nervous or scared. They overcame it, and they were willing to do whatever they had to do to get this story out there on a bigger platform because it affects their everyday life. There's only a handful of people that have been weird about talking to us, and no one has the obligation to talk to any journalist or podcaster at all. And it doesn't mean that you're suspicious or guilty if you don't. But I would say, honestly, 99% of the people in Gnome have met us mostly with open arms. There's been some hesitation, but we've, you know, worked at gaining that trust. And there are people who are just saying fuck off, but that's everywhere.

[Cooper]

Yeah. I think a cool thing about Gnome is they're very aware of these cases. And if you talk to anyone about Florence's case, they'll probably bring up Joseph's case or they'll probably bring up Sonia Ivanov. They don't want these things happening in their town. And if you talk to him about Joseph's case, they'll bring up Florence's case. They're very aware of this, and they know there's been some wrongdoings that I don't think anyone in the town wants repeated.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yet they're also perplexed as to why the police have not solved these cases. And for a lot of people who live there, that reality is way different. To live in that and to not feel like you can trust law enforcement on a daily basis, I can't imagine what that's like, especially in a place like Nome, isolated and far out there.

[Mike Rooney]

Shannon asks, what's up with the Discord? How's that working out for you?

[Thrasher Banks]

The Discord is insane. We knew it would be. If you've been a longtime listener of up and Vanished, and if you were there in the beginning, 2016, 2017, we had a discussion board that was really, really active, and the suspects and the community were all up in there. And it was. It was a crazy place because everyone's kind of hiding behind a username. And, you know, there's a level, everyone's pretty much anonymous, unless they say who they are or prove who they are, or someone comes out of the woodwork and proves to us that that is who that is. And really, it's an investigative tool. It's not really like a. A fan club group or discussion. It's. It's. It's a place where people can speak anonymously and a place where we can hopefully find new leads and try to control the chaos as much as possible.

[Cooper]

Yeah, it turns into a lot of fighting almost every time we do this.

[Thrasher Banks]

Which is a bummer, but I know.

[Cooper]

It'S gonna happen no matter what.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah, people just get, I mean, they're gonna get pissed. And so, yeah, there's a lot of babysitting that happens as well. And, you know, not knowing who to trust in there as a moderator or whoever, and people just making things up out in the open and shifting things and directions that it shouldn't be going in. But the good thing that comes out of all of it, the silver lining is that we see all this, like we're logging all of this. And I know for a fact there's been some people in the discord who are purposefully making shit up because they're guilty of something.

[Mike Rooney]

I guess that's kind of the double edged sword of anonymity. You know, like you can get really great tips because people aren't afraid to come forward, but you also get a lot of just like assholes who are just stirring up drama just for the sake of drama, you know?

[Thrasher Banks]

Absolutely.

[Mike Rooney]

So it's, it's hard to sift through that. But I feel like we're doing a good job with the amount of people who are in there and we're finding good information and maybe finding new leads, who knows?

[Cooper]

Definitely trolls will come out. No matter what. There's always trolls.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah, trolls be out there. They find those discords.

[Mike Rooney]

So a bunch of people are asking about Joseph's cell phone. When he went missing, was his cell phone recovered? Was there information that was recovered from that that's been useful to the investigation? We haven't really discussed it in the podcast, but what can you say about that?

[Cooper]

Yeah, they never found Joseph's phone, unfortunately. And the cell towers there. I think what I've seen from the private investigators, homework and investigation is that there's really only one tower, one cell tower in Gnome. So there's no way to like triangulate any kind of location of where he was during that weekend. So yeah, there's not much to go off there.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah, yeah. All the information we have in regards to Joseph's phone are from his actual cell phone records themselves. And unfortunately they don't have a detailed spell out of what his text messages were saying. We know his WhatsApp messages to his fiance because we have her ends of the conversation, but unfortunately we don't have Christine's because she wiped her phone or something.

[Mike Rooney]

Yeah. So getting more into the specifics of some of the people surrounding the case, a bunch of people are asking about Joseph's fiance, Megan Ryder. What can you tell us about her, she hasn't really played a main part in the podcast, per se, but is there anything going on behind the scenes with her?

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah, I mean, personally, I talk to the families a lot, Meg being one of them. She's been an active participant behind the scenes, regardless of whether or not you've heard, like, a full interview from her or something. But she's the one who gave us all of the voice notes. You. You heard of Joseph's real voice and has worked in tandem with the family and his entire friend circle since day one and spearheading, trying to find out what happened to him. And so we talked to a lot of people, her included, that are close to the victims, even if you don't hear interviews with them per se.

[Mike Rooney]

So another question that's come up a few times, people are really curious about Joseph's credit card statements. One of the things you figured out in the podcast was that his credit card was used after he had disappeared. Are there going to be any new updates on that, and is there any plan to try to investigate that any further?

[Thrasher Banks]

Yes. So we've done a lot of homework on that specific thing, and I've been trying my hardest to pinpoint particular items that were purchased at the Bonanza Express. And I have the birth dates of the individual who made the purchases, who bought this stuff. But in all likelihood, it seems like the birthdays that were punched in was just like if you went to your local supermarket and they're like, oh, you're over 21, and they just go boop, boop, boop, boop, and just put in a random, you know, birthday. But we do know who those individuals are. I think that they're completely unrelated, but we know specific items that were purchased that were purchased repeatedly on different days. So likely the same person or group of people buying this stuff. And we've done our best to try to find out who would have bought those things without letting the cat out of the bag. But we also plan on, based on how much further we get just straight up telling you guys, because I think that the community itself could answer that question if we. If we just tell them specifically what it is. So definitely more to come on that. And that was like, that. That was the cliffhanger of the first installment. But we've been. We've learned a lot about the credit card issue. You know, there's stuff about the security footage from there that's gone, and it ties in other ways to the story. But we plan on telling you as much as we know about that specific piece of evidence if we want to call it that very soon. Actually.

[Payne Lindsey]

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[Luke Lamanna]

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[Thrasher Banks]

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[Luke Lamanna]

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[Thrasher Banks]

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[Mike Rooney]

So another big question we're getting. People are really wanting an update on the PCOA family and how they're involved in this case. I know early on when we talked to private investigator Andy Clamser, we had mentioned, you know, is, is there something to this? The pias being involved. And his take seemed to be that it was just such a large family in such a small town that eventually you just couldn't help but run into a pyscoia. But I'm curious, like, what your take is on what you've uncovered through all of these files, Listening to everything, talking to people in Nome. Where are you with that?

[Thrasher Banks]

Regardless of whatever last name or whatever family you want to refer to in Joseph's case, like in the case of Joseph's disappearance, there are people that we have interviews with, recordings of who have bold faced lied repeatedly on different occasions, and their stories just don't match up now, I don't know. That doesn't. Everyone isn't guilty of something, right? Like, that's impossible. But why is anyone lying? When you're being questioned by an investigator about a missing person who's supposedly your friend or, you know, someone you consider family yourself, why is there any need to lie about anything. And it's not. And it's not just stuff like I forgot the exact time or this or that. We have a lot of tape, thanks to all the hard work that was done and we have a lot of new tape to compare it to. We can see what someone said eight years ago and see what they're saying now. We can see what they said in July of 2016 or October of 2016. And those things are not adding up. And it appears like a narrative was being stitched together in some way, shape or form is the only way that I can rationalize it and the only way to clear it up is if any of these people talk to whoever and they can say, I've already talked to the police. Well, if the police is your cousin or if it's still unsolved like, and he's your friend and you care about this missing person, then talk again like everyone else is talking. You know what I mean? So I think that there probably is a level of fear and some people in Gnome in terms of their closeness to certain people, maybe they've been friends for a long time and they didn't know all this stuff and they don't want, you know, their family name to be brought down in some way if somebody, you know, a lone individual did something. Right. But there are, there's a pattern of lying that we have discovered here from people who are related to each other. And that's just a fact. Do, do, do whatever you want with that, but when they lied to police officers, that's a crime. So. And it seems like every day we find a new one. And we'll, we'll outline all of this stuff very specifically so you can see what we're talking about. And you don't have, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to stitch it together. It's this person saying this on this date and then this on this date and then this on this date. Why are those things so off and why doesn't it match this? They all couldn't have happened. And why is it that it's all connected to one group of people who were saying these things that don't match when mostly everything else does add up. So it's just like a common sense thing that, you know, I think had investigators kept investigating, they would have probably been able to get to the bottom of a long time ago.

[Mike Rooney]

Kind of a follow up question. I know that you've spent a lot of time reaching out to a lot of people who are close to this case and you aren't getting a lot of responses from some of the people that you're hoping to talk to. And I think because of that, you're having to rely on a lot of secondhand accounts and secondhand information to piece together these narratives. If, assuming that these people are listening, is there anything that you would want to say to them that might convince them to want to talk to you?

[Thrasher Banks]

I mean, assuming that any of them are listening, if I've tried to talk to you and you've declined and you're scared or nervous about what's going to happen if you do, if you're genuine with me, there's really nothing to be afraid of. Especially if you didn't do anything wrong. Right. Even if you did do something wrong or you know, something that happened and you were. You're a witness of something, it. It feels like now would be the best time to say something. Because I think when it's all said and done and we've packaged up all that we know and what we've discovered and combine that with all the eight years of work on Joseph's case, it's going to land on an investigator's office that's not local, who we're going to compel to go investigate, because crimes were committed in terms of lying to the cops. And I don't know about you guys, but, like, I don't know, isn't it in, like, every. In every true crime documentary you've ever watched, if you lie to the cops, they pick you up and interrogate you? It just seems like it's. I don't know.

[Mike Rooney]

No, yeah, I think that's totally. That's what it is. You know, it's like they kind of either just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or by doing the wrong things at the wrong time, made themselves the center of this investigation. You know, because of that, they've always been in that place now. And it's unfortunate, but that's how the cookie crumbles, I guess, you know, and all we can do is just track that down and do our best to get to the real story there.

[Thrasher Banks]

Yeah. And I think at, like, early stages, when you hear of the investigators talking to people like Jake, they only knew so much because it was very fresh. They knew that Jake had lied and texted his friends to create an alibi, but that's really all they knew. But the lies go beyond that. That can be factually, literally, physically proven beyond eyewitness accounts. And so it wasn't just, okay, we get it, you were nervous. We'll let you pass on this one. I think the whole I was just nervous thing becomes a little flimsier if there's more lies uncovered after the fact. And so we'll see if a higher government agency wants to take that seriously. And we'll do our best to present it in a digestible, legitimate way professionally. And with the help of you guys, the listeners, and, you know, we can make some noise about, hey, we think something's wrong with this. Why don't the people who can actually do anything about it can actually make an arrest, can actually bring the sort of justice that we're talking about in terms of breaking laws, murder. We can try to compel them to go look into this again. And I think if they do, they're gonna say, holy shit, it's right here in front of us.

[Mike Rooney]

So we have so many questions asking the same thing here. Everyone wants an update on what's going to happen with Flow's case. Is there any plan for the future of up and Vanish to do more of a deep dive on Flow or Oregon John or the case in general?

[Thrasher Banks]

The answer is absolutely yes. We already have so much new information that we're compiling and putting together, and you will hear it. The first seven episodes of this season were mostly focused on Florence's disappearance, and towards the end we dovetailed into Joseph's case. And just like we did in the first half, we're going to do the same coming up, and we plan on doing another installment of at least eight episodes after this that focuses on both, now that we collectively know the information right, and we'll obviously catch you up to speed and remind you and recap you on important details. But now that we're collectively familiar with these cases, moving forward, it's going to become a podcast series about both cases in tandem.

[Mike Rooney]

So that's all the time we have today to answer these questions. We really appreciate you sending us these questions and showing us how interested you are in this investigation. It fuels us to keep going and in turn it allows us to give you better content. So thank you for your time and thank you, Payne and Mike, for taking the time to answer these questions. And we'll see you next week on up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun.

[Thrasher Banks]

If you want to dive in deeper into the conversation of this season, go join our discord. The link to it is in the episode description. You can follow me on Instagram, ainlinsy and Panished and for ad free listening of up and Vanished and every other Tenderfoot TV show, subscribe to Tenderfoot plus on Apple Podcasts or just go to tenderfootplus.com there's a $50,000 reward. Come get it.

[Payne Lindsey]

Up and vanished in the Midnight sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsey. Lead producer is Mike Rooney along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional Production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanique, Glenn and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set mixed and mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at uta, Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show Notes. For more podcasts like up and Banished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Water Damage is no Joke did you know that water damage makes up more than 25% of all home insurance claims and the average claim costs over $13,000? Don't let a small leak turn into a big expense. Learn more at go.pemco.com Nojoke Pemco Mutual Insurance Co. Seattle, WA did you know that after World War II the US government quietly brought former Nazi scientists to America in a covert operation to advance military? Or that in the 1950s the US army conducted a secret experiment by releasing bacteria over San Francisco to test how a biological attack might spread without alerting the public? These might sound like conspiracy theories, but they're not. They're well documented government operations that have been hidden away in classified files for decades. I'm Luke lamanna, a Marine Corps recon vet and I've always had a thing for digging into the unknown. It's what led me to start my new podcast, Redacted Declassified Mysteries. In it I explore hidden truths and reveal some eye opening events like covert experiments and secret operations that those in power tried to keep buried. Follow Redacted Declassified Mysteries with me, Luke Lamanna on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts to listen ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery App.