BONUS: America's Shifting Alliances

Summary

Summary of "Bonus: America's Shifting Alliances" Episode from NPR's Up First

Podcast Information:

• Title: Up First from NPR
• Host/Author: NPR
• Episode: BONUS: America's Shifting Alliances
• Release Date: March 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this special bonus episode of NPR's Up First, host Michelle Martin delves into the profound shifts occurring in America's global alliances under President Trump's administration. The episode examines policy reversals, the realignment of international relationships, and the broader implications for global stability.

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Trump's Redefinition of America's Global Alliances

Policy Reversals and Realignments

President Donald Trump has initiated significant changes in U.S. foreign policy, leading to realignments that have reverberated worldwide. Michelle Martin opens the discussion by highlighting Trump's departure from traditional alliance structures:

Michelle Martin [00:02]: "President Trump has shaken up America's global alliances with policy reversals and moves toward realignments that are being felt around the world."

Trump's Stance on Alliances

Trump emphasizes his commitment solely to the United States, distancing himself from previous international commitments:

Donald Trump [00:10]: "I'm not aligned with anybody. I'm aligned with the United States of America and for the good of the world."

Expert Perspectives on the Shifts

Stephen Walt's Analysis

Stephen Walt, a foreign policy expert at Harvard, provides insight into Trump's nationalist approach and comfort with autocratic leaders:

Stephen Walt [00:31]: "First of all, he's not an isolationist. He's an ardent nationalist and much more comfortable with autocratic leaders than with leaders of liberal democracies."

Walt further explains the potential consequences for U.S. alliances:

Stephen Walt [04:28]: "If the United States is no longer a reliable ally... the countries we've been counting on in the past to support us on many international initiatives are going to be much less willing to do so."

Anne Applebaum on Implications for Democracy

Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, discusses the far-reaching implications of Trump's approach:

Anne Applebaum [02:34]: "Trump is saying, I don't care anymore about alliances. I'm not interested in your opinions. I'm going to do a deal with this dictator over your head."

She elaborates on the potential disintegration of longstanding treaties and economic relationships:

Anne Applebaum [03:02]: "There are economic implications... What happens to a series of trade agreements... treaties on not just commerce, but treaties on the laws of war... disappear."

Impact on U.S. and European Relations

European Leaders' Concerns

Victoria Coats, a former deputy national security adviser, addresses the concerns of European allies:

Victoria Coats [07:22]: "European Union was formed so that there wouldn't be any wars in Europe anymore... the United States has always been our ally and friend."

She warns of the dangers if the U.S. continues its current trajectory:

Victoria Coats [11:19]: "No one can depend on the United States under Trump to come to their defense. There could be a real drift toward either accommodating China... or going after their own nuclear weapons."

NATO and Ukraine

The episode delves into the critical role of NATO in the current geopolitical climate:

Victoria Coats [07:51]: "It's clear that we need to have very, very concrete security guarantees for Ukraine. And the strongest security guarantee that there is is the NATO membership."

Contrasting Trump's statements on NATO:

Donald Trump [08:24]: "NATO you can forget about."

Coats emphasizes the broader implications for global security:

Victoria Coats [08:44]: "Russia, China, Iran, North Korea... are working together to establish a new world order where might makes right."

Shifts in Asia and Relations with China

Potential Realignment in Asia

Michelle Martin explores how Trump's policies might affect U.S. relations in Asia, particularly with China and Taiwan:

Victoria Coats [10:26]: "It's unclear... how Trump's instinct to suck up the dictators... comes up against the hawks in the administration."

Lorde, a former U.S. Ambassador to China, critiques Trump's impact on America's global standing:

Victoria Coats [09:56]: "Trump has done more damage to America's position in the world... if he can sell out Ukraine, he could easily sell out Taiwan."

Consequences for U.S. Allies in Asia

The uncertainty in U.S. foreign policy has left Asian allies apprehensive:

Victoria Coats [11:19]: "If this trend continues, no one can depend on the United States under Trump to come to their defense... It's a disaster for Asia as well as Europe."

Historical Context and Comparisons

Throughline: Trump vs. Nixon-Kissinger Era

Host Leila Fadel interviews Winston Lorde, a former U.S. Ambassador to China, drawing parallels between Trump's approach and historical diplomatic efforts:

Winston Lorde [09:39]: "Trump has done more damage to America's position in the world... countries like China and North Korea are delighted at what's going on."

Lorde reflects on the historical significance of Nixon's diplomatic breakthroughs and questions Trump's long-term strategy:

Victoria Coats [10:24]: "Changed the fate of Taiwan. Will what's happening today under the Trump administration fundamentally change the US approach?"

Conclusion

The episode concludes by underscoring the gravity of the shifts in U.S. foreign policy under President Trump. Experts like Stephen Walt and Anne Applebaum highlight the potential erosion of alliances, the destabilization of NATO, and the emboldening of autocratic regimes. The discussions emphasize the urgent need for coherent and cooperative strategies to maintain global stability and uphold democratic values.

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Production Credits

• Edited by: Lisa Thompson, Arizu Rezvani, Reena Advani, Olivia Hampton
• Produced by: Claire Murashima, Nia Dumas, Chris Thomas, Paige Waterhouse
• Additional Production: Adam Biren, Milton Guevara, Ana Perez
• Hosts: Michelle Martin, Leila Fadel, Steve Inskeep, Michel Martin, A Martinez

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This summary captures the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the original podcast.

Transcript

[Michelle Martin]

President Trump has shaken up America's global alliances with policy reversals and moves toward realignments that are being felt around the world.

[Donald Trump]

I'm not aligned with anybody. I'm aligned with the United States of America and for the good of the world.

[Michelle Martin]

So how are other world leaders as well as thought leaders making sense of these big changes? I'm Michelle Martin, and this is a special bonus episode of up first from NPR News. A major shock has been President Trump's tilt toward Russia and its war on Ukraine.

[Stephen Walt]

First of all, he's not an isolationist. He's an ardent nationalist and much more comfortable with autocratic leaders than with leaders of liberal democracies.

[Michelle Martin]

What does that mean for future relations between the US and its democratic allies?

[Anne Applebaum]

It has so many implications that they're almost hard to think through.

[Michelle Martin]

Stay with us. We've got news. You need to make sense of it in this special bonus episode of up first from NPR News.

[Stephen Walt]

On Throughline.

[Donald Trump]

From npr, the consequences for the country would have been enormous. It would have been a crisis.

[Michelle Martin]

The man who saw a dangerous omission in the US Constitution and took it upon himself to fix it. Find NPR's Throughline. Wherever you get your podcasts these days, there's so much news it can be hard to keep up with what it all means for you, your family and your community. The Consider this podcast from NPR features our award winning journalism. Six days a week, we bring you a deep dive on a news story and provide the context and analysis that helps you make sense of the news. We get behind the headlines. We get to the truth. Listen to the Consider this podcast from NPR. After years of U.S. policies aimed at isolating Russia, the Trump administration is working with Russia to try to make a deal to end the war. Critics say Trump is appeasing Putin, even that Trump has forged a new alliance with Putin. During a heated meeting in the White House with Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelensky, Trump says that's not true.

[Donald Trump]

I'm not aligned with Putin. I'm not aligned with anybody. I'm aligned with the United States of America and for the good of the world.

[Michelle Martin]

Europeans and others are worried because what happens in Ukraine could have broader implications. So what do the shifting alliances mean for America and its role in the world?

[Anne Applebaum]

Trump is saying, I don't care anymore about alliances. I'm not interested in your opinions. I'm going to do a deal with this dictator over your head.

[Michelle Martin]

That's Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for the Atlantic, talking about Trump's recent posturing towards Russia. She says Russia is a threat not only to Ukraine, but also to Europe.

[Anne Applebaum]

And that's a message that is heard not just in every European capital, but in every allied capital around the planet as a sign that the US Is changing.

[Michelle Martin]

My co host, Leila Fadel, spoke with her about the significance of this shift.

[Victoria Coats]

Okay, so if the US Says I don't care about alliances anymore, what does.

[Michelle Martin]

That mean for US and global stability?

[Anne Applebaum]

It has so many implications that they're almost hard to think through. There are economic implications. You know, what happens to our trade relationships with Europe and with Asia? What about the US Companies that have enjoyed special favor in those markets, you know, U.S. defense companies, but also U.S. nuclear power companies, other kinds of big utility companies that have been welcomed by those countries because as a way of expressing their fealty to the United States. What happens to a series of trade agreements that have created easy and regular trade between all around the world? What happens to all kinds of treaties on not just treaties on commerce, but treaties on the laws of war? All these things that have governed U.S. behavior and allied behavior all over the world for 80 years now disappear.

[Michelle Martin]

We also heard from Stephen Walt, a foreign policy expert at Harvard. He's concerned about the kinds of world leaders Trump seems comfortable with.

[Stephen Walt]

First of all, he's not an isolationist. He's an ardent nationalist and much more comfortable with autocratic leaders than with leaders of liberal democracies. It's, you know, Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, Viktor Orban in Hungary, Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia. And I think in Trump's mind, and a perfect world would be one where powerful leaders can get together and cut deals and then impose them on others without paying too much attention to the rule of law.

[Michelle Martin]

Like Applebaum, Walt is concerned that this positioning should shake up how democratic allies.

[Stephen Walt]

View the U.S. if the United States is no longer a reliable ally, if it actually seems to be hostile to liberal democracy in Europe, then I think we're going to find that the countries we've been counting on in the past to support us on many international initiatives are going to be much less willing to do so.

[Michelle Martin]

But Walt has been critical of U.S. foreign policy and what he views as an over commitment to allies and the expansion of NATO without clear benefits to the US So how does he think the US should realign with allies?

[Stephen Walt]

Well, there's no question Europe should be more responsible for its own defense, and the United States should be shifting its attention and resources elsewhere. I think I agree with that. But that should be done in a responsible, cooperative way, and it should be done gradually over a period of, you know, five to 10 years, because Europe is going to need some time to develop its own security institutions, build up its forces. We should be moving in that direction, but we should be doing that by treating them as our allies so that 10 years from now we still have a good relationship with Europe and we can count on their diplomatic support and count on cooperating with them when unexpected events happen. Trump appears to be burning up the alliance.

[Michelle Martin]

My co host Steve Inskeep asked Victoria Coats, a former deputy national security adviser in the first Trump administration, if the president has already upended the world order and switched sides.

[Kayakalas]

No, I don't think so, Steve. I think President Trump is doing is acknowledging that 80 years on, the reason that some of the structures were put in place after World War II, which was actually largely to prevent another inter Europe war, that those circumstances are no longer in place. You know, a war between Germany and France is not our number one national security problem. Neither is in Europe.

[Michelle Martin]

So what does she make of the President's approach to Russia's war in Ukraine?

[Kayakalas]

There's been no diplomacy to proceed to a conclusion of the war. We've had a lot of maximalist rhetoric. We've had a lot of displays of support for Ukraine and, and declarations that Ukraine is a democracy and this is an existential threat to the West. But we've also had hundreds of thousands dead and a lot of destruction and as I said, no progress. So I think he, he is trying to change that paravat and in terms.

[Michelle Martin]

Of how allies might be interpreting sh in approach. Coats says visits to Washington from several European leaders, Prime Minister Keir Starmer from the UK President Emmanuel Macron of France and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine tell a different story.

[Kayakalas]

So that hardly looks to me like, you know, a Washington that is rejecting Europe.

[Michelle Martin]

Another European leader who came to Washington is EU foreign policy chief Kayakalas. My colleague A. Martinez spoke with her and started by asking about what President Trump said at his first cabinet meeting as he threatens 25% tariffs against the.

[Donald Trump]

European Union was formed in order to screw the United States. That's the purpose of it and they've done a good job of it. But now I'm president.

[Victoria Coats]

Well, European Union was formed so that there wouldn't be any wars in Europe anymore. And we have been succeeding with the members of European Union that we don't have wars between ourselves. But the United States has always been our ally and friend. So I don't know where this Talk.

[Michelle Martin]

Comes from a asked Kalis about her hopes for Ukraine.

[Victoria Coats]

What the Americans are explaining is that when you have economic ties with the country, then it's also in your interest to work for the security of this country. You know, it's clear that Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is the victim. So it's clear that we need to have very, very concrete security guarantees for Ukraine. And the strongest security guarantee that there is is the NATO membership.

[Michelle Martin]

President Trump, however, has said this about membership, but I can tell you that.

[Donald Trump]

NATO you can forget about.

[Michelle Martin]

But for Callas, NATO membership doesn't just benefit Ukraine. She says Ukraine has one of the strongest armies at the moment. So to have a strong NATO, that would mean having Ukraine as a member. Do you think that Americans are taking the Russian threat seriously enough?

[Victoria Coats]

Well, it's clear that we need to really explain how important this is also to America. If we don't get Russia right, we don't get China right either. And it's clear that Iran, Russia, North Korea, and more covertly, China are working together to establish a new world order where might makes right. And that is dangerous to everybody, including United States. So that's why it's not only Ukraine sovereignty and territorial integrity that is at stake, but it's much, much broader fight between the autocracies and the democracies of.

[Michelle Martin]

The Leila Fadel spoke with Winston Lorde, a former US Ambassador to China who was a close aide to the late foreign policymaker Henry Kissinger. Lorde is the only surviving American witness of a landmark meeting in 1972 between President Richard Nixon and China's leader Mao Zedong.

[Donald Trump]

Now, those who are apologists for Trump say, well, maybe what he's trying to do is a reverse Nixon Kissinger, namely to pry Moscow away from Beijing when they've gotten closer and closer.

[Michelle Martin]

But what does Lorde think about this moment of closer ties between the U.S. russia and China? Lila asked.

[Donald Trump]

I think Trump has done more damage to America's position in the world, not even mentioning what it's doing to our democracy at home in one month than decades of Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Just take what's going to happen in Asia if this continues. China and North Korea are delighted at what's going on. If he can sell out Ukraine, he could easily sell out Taiwan.

[Michelle Martin]

Your historic trip with Nixon to Beijing.

[Victoria Coats]

Changed the fate of Taiwan.

[Michelle Martin]

Will what's happening today under the Trump.

[Victoria Coats]

Administration fundamentally change the US Approach?

[Donald Trump]

So it is premature to conclude conclusively what it's going to do about China and Taiwan, and so It'd be interesting to see how Trump's instinct to suck up the dictators and with people like Xi and to forget about commitments and just worry about our own transactional economic interests comes up against the hawks in the administration. But I must say that given the fact that he's made comments on Taiwan taking advantage of us making the point they're far away, they ought to do more for their own defense. I'd be apprehensive if I were in Taiwan.

[Michelle Martin]

How are other US Allies in Asia viewing these shifts in longstanding American foreign policy?

[Donald Trump]

With astonishment, and they're appalled. If this trend continues, no one can depend on the United States under Trump to come to their defense. There could be a real drift toward either accommodating China because they don't have America as a deterrent or going after their own nuclear weapons. It's a disaster for Asia as well as Europe.

[Michelle Martin]

These are just some of the perspectives we've been hearing about how U.S. foreign policy is shifting under the Trump administration. And that's it for this bonus episode of up first. We'll keep following this closely here at up first and on Morning edition, so keep listening for more news and analysis. This episode was edited by Lisa Thompson, Arizu Rezvani, Reena Advani and Olivia Hampton. It was produced by Claire Murashima, Nia Dumas, Chris Thomas and Paige Waterhouse, with additional production from Adam Biren, Milton Guevara and Ana Perez. And don't forget, up first airs on the weekend, too. Ayesha Roscoe and Scott Simon have the news. It will be here in this feed or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to up.

[Kayakalas]

First sponsor free through Amazon Music.

[Michelle Martin]

Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get up first [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.