Carlson’s War: Part 1

Summary

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Up First from NPR – “Carlson’s War: Part 1”

Date: November 9, 2025
Host: Ayesha Rascoe
Featured Reporter: Quill Lawrence
Episode Theme:
A special, in-depth Sunday Story for Veterans Day, chronicling the harrowing journey of Iraq war veteran Dave Carlson over the past 10 years — from combat, through desperation, to incarceration. Reporter Quill Lawrence, who has covered veterans for NPR for over a decade, explores what happens when a decorated vet with severe PTSD faces the American criminal justice system, and what society might owe those who have served.

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Episode Overview

This episode departs from the typical quick news format to present Part 1 of a deeply personal, decade-long reporting project. Quill Lawrence shares the story of Dave Carlson, a combat veteran whose struggles with trauma, addiction, and mental health brought him from decorated service in Iraq to prison in Wisconsin. With candid interviews and raw insight, the episode explores the intersecting failures of mental health care, the military, and the criminal justice system for America’s veterans.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. How Quill Lawrence Became NPR’s Veterans Reporter

[01:02]

• Quill’s background as a war correspondent in Iraq and Afghanistan gave him firsthand perspective into the lives of U.S. troops.
• He transitioned to covering veterans on the home front, motivated by a personal and professional need to understand how soldiers adjust to civilian life after war.
• "I just started thinking, what the hell are these troops going to do when they get home? ...How are they not going to resent the country that sent them to fight and possibly die at war and then... just stop paying attention to the wars?" — Quill Lawrence

2. Introduction to Dave Carlson: War Hero to Inmate

[06:13 - 07:41]

• NPR’s only mainstream national network with a dedicated veterans reporter brings focus to a unique and largely unaddressed group: incarcerated veterans.
• Lawrence begins a ten-year relationship with Dave Carlson, a National Guard combat vet turned prisoner after a string of crimes post-deployment.
• The episode opens on Carlson’s sentencing hearing: “I’m trying to square this thoughtful, decorated combat vet I’ve been on the phone with, with this criminal defendant sitting in the dock.” — Quill Lawrence

3. Dave Carlson’s Early Life and Military Path

[10:22]

• Carlson’s turbulent childhood featured addiction, violence, and parental instability. Both parents experienced trauma: his mother faced addiction and suicide attempts, his father, a Vietnam vet, was involved in drugs and crime.
• A promising high school athlete and student, he spiraled in college, plagued by depression and social anxiety, and in need of purpose.
• "I was angry for a lot. For much of my life, I was very angry with my dad." — Dave Carlson [10:33]
• The National Guard offered a way out: “I was like, I’m good at this. Like, I can do this. And I feel something, like ...purpose.” — Dave Carlson [12:41]

4. Deployment to Iraq: Bonds, Loyalty and Survivor’s Guilt

[14:11 - 20:51]

• Carlson thirsted for action on his first tour, forging deep loyalty with regular army units.
• He idolized and patrolled with Army Sergeant Alwyn Cash, who would later earn the Medal of Honor.
• In a cruel twist of fate, Carlson was held back from a mission—one that ended in tragedy: “I should have been there. Like, why wasn’t I there? Why did those guys die? Why did I survive? And those questions, they still haunt Dave Carlson even all these years later...” — Quill Lawrence [19:37]
• Deeply emotional moment as Carlson reflects on the loss: "Burned to death in that...In that." — Dave Carlson [20:10]
  (Quill gently helps Carlson through the memory)

5. Coming Home, Failing to Reintegrate, and Return to War

[21:39 - 24:42]

• Carlson struggled to fit back into civilian life after deployment; the National Guard’s model meant veterans scattered, not reintegrating as a unit.
• He quickly itched to return to Iraq — and did, keeping it secret from his girlfriend.
• In his second tour, his sense of detachment grew: "I just sat there like, I just don’t give a fuck. ...I’m seeing tracers everywhere. I’m fucking hearing gunshots, and I’m just calm as shit. There was no sense of urgency." — Dave Carlson [22:42]
• On returning, his instability increased: “I picked him up at the airport, and I could not believe it ...His eyes were just completely blank...They really got your son this time.” — Heidi Carlson, Dave’s mother [23:21]
• A dangerous run-in with the police, nearly resulting in suicide by cop, followed: “I need to just, like, raise it up and just, like, fucking end this shit, right? And I was just scared to do it.” — Dave Carlson [24:17]

6. Outreach, Rock Bottom, and the Role of Fellow Veterans

[25:46 - 27:53]

• Despite a string of arrests and VA interventions, Carlson continued to spiral, terrifying his family.
• His mother contacted Mike Orbin, a Vietnam veteran who had spoken publicly about his own long-term struggles and recovery.
• Mike found Carlson at a bus station, battered and lost: “When he sat down ...his forehead just fell down on top of his hands and he started crying. And I just looked at him and my heart was just breaking for him ...He said, ‘I just don’t even know who I am anymore.’” — Mike Orbin [27:22]

7. Incarceration as Turning Point

[27:53 - 28:34]

• Finally, repeated legal troubles bring Carlson to the Dodge Correctional Institution.
• “It’s there in probably what’s the worst place for a veteran with PTSD that Dave Carlson begins to find a way out.” — Quill Lawrence [28:26]
• “That was probably the big turning point for Dave, where he just started kind of rebuilding.” — Mike Orbin [28:34]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the broken reintegration process:
  “When you’re in the Guard, everyone scatters to their towns and cities and goes back to their day job, and they’re just back on the streets of the USA. ...So, not at war, but not really a civilian.”
  — Quill Lawrence [21:39]

• On survivor’s guilt:
  “Why did those guys die? Why did I survive? ...They still haunt Dave Carlson…”
  — Quill Lawrence [19:37]

• On the double trauma of war and home:
  “Our lives have been consumed with ... Where's David? What’s he doing? Is he alive? Is he okay? ...I have a son who served his country, and now he’s out in the woods somewhere, homeless.”
  — Heidi Carlson [25:55]

• On the identity crisis of returning veterans:
  “He said, ‘I just don’t even know who I am anymore.’”
  — Mike Orbin [27:22]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:44 – Why Quill Lawrence became NPR’s dedicated veterans reporter
• 06:13 – Beginning of Dave Carlson’s story, first jail interview
• 10:22 – Carlson’s childhood and early trauma
• 12:41 – National Guard enlistment and purpose
• 15:42 – Iraq deployment details, relationship with Sgt. Cash
• 18:40 – The ambush, Cash’s heroism, survivor’s guilt
• 21:39 – Coming home, civilian confusion, return to Iraq
• 22:42 – Emotional detachment during second deployment
• 23:21 – Family’s perspective on postwar change
• 24:17 – Suicide attempt by cop, forced VA intervention
• 25:55 – Family and fellow veteran mobilizing to help
• 27:22 – “I just don’t even know who I am anymore...”
• 28:26 – Prison as the unlikely place for rebuilding

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Tone & Style

Straightforward, compassionate, and unflinching. The episode incorporates both candid, raw confessions from Carlson and moving reflection from his family and veteran peers, pulled together by Quill’s steady, empathetic narration.

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Conclusion

“Carlson’s War: Part 1” is a powerful and unfiltered look at the unseen aftermath of America’s post-9/11 wars, the enduring scars of trauma, and the staggering gaps in veteran support systems. Quill Lawrence’s decade-long relationship with Dave Carlson captures not just one man’s journey, but also the broader moral question: "What do we owe these guys?" Part 2 will continue Carlson’s story, exploring whether it’s possible for a combat veteran — especially one hardened and broken in prison — to truly find a path to healing.

Listen to Part 2 in the feed.

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Transcript

[Aisha Rascoe]

Before we start today's show, we want to share a warning that this episode has explicit language, descriptions of violence and includes mentions of suicide. Okay, here's the show. I'm Aisha Rascoe, and this is a Sunday Story. Veterans Day is coming up this week, so I wanted to invite NPR's Quill Lawrence onto the show to share a story in he's been working on for 10 years. Quill has covered vets in the Department of Veterans affairs for NPR since 2012, and for almost that whole time, he's been following the story of one combat veteran's journey home. So, Quill, welcome.

[Quill Lawrence]

Oh, thank you, Aisha.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Now, just to brag a little bit, NPR is the only mainstream national network that has consistently had a dedicated veterans reporter. And Quill, that started with you. How did you get the job?

[Quill Lawrence]

Yeah, I was a war correspondent for about 15 years, and the end of that, I was working at NPR bureaus in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And in the beginning of those wars, I could just cruise around either of those countries in a beat up taxi and just sort of keep a low profile. As the wars got more intense, the only way I could get around was to embed with US Troops. So that's when I started getting to know troops.

[Aisha Rascoe]

And so you're embedded with these troops, you're spending all this time with them. What did you learn from that?

[Quill Lawrence]

Well, besides just seeing the war from their perspective, as the years passed on and they were doing deployment after deployment, I just started thinking, what the hell are these troops going to do when they get home? Really? Just how are they going to relate to people who haven't been to war? And how are they not going to resent the country that sent them to fight and possibly die at war and then kind of just start paying attention to the wars? And honestly, I had the same questions. For me, I could see that being a work correspondent was stressing out my relationships back at home. And sometimes being at home, I didn't feel like I had any real purpose until I could get back to. But I really wanted to come home. And so the beat for me for NPR covering veterans started out as a way to get home. But, you know, I thought it was important to chronicle the experiences of these veterans and what happens to them on the home front.

[Aisha Rascoe]

And we've heard your reporting over the years covering a wide range of stories about vets. In Perez, Quill Lawrence visits a family where a husband is the one who stays home and a mother goes off to war.

[Quill Lawrence]

A party at Jane Grimes house outside Fort worth means all the enchiladas you can eat, Coors Light and real Texas hospitality. Dodson is the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit filed by the group Paralyzed Veterans of America. Estimates vary about how many veterans have ptsd, but it's almost certainly a minority. More importantly to me right now is that we're all hanging off about 800ft up and we're looking out at the gorgeous view of Yosemite. But for all my coverage over the years, there is one story I've been following the longest and that isn't really over yet, and that's Dave Carlson. I came across his story because a lot of my reporting, as you can hear, is about vets making the transition to civilian life and the va. The Department of Veterans affairs can be very helpful with this with disability benefits, with healthcare therapy, home loans, career counseling. But there's one group that doesn't really get those benefits, Vets in prison. There are tens of thousands of veterans currently incarcerated in the United States, and when you go to prison, most of your VA benefits stop. And getting over PTSD in prison seems practically impossible. I wanted to find out what that would be like for a combat vet, and I went looking for a vet to profile and eventually I found Dave Carlson. You have a call from Dave, an inmate at Waukesha County Jail.

[Aisha Rascoe]

This week. On the Sunday Story, Quill tells us about Dave Carlson and the challenges he faced over 10 years as he moved from war to desperation to to incarceration.

[Dave Carlson]

Jail is the least therapeutic atmosphere you can probably ever imagine. Jail is you come in one way and you leave three times worse.

[Judge]

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[Aisha Rascoe]

This is a Sunday story, and today I'm handing the Mic over to NPR's Quill Lawrence. He's been interviewing Iraq war veteran Dave Carlson over the past 10 years.

[Quill Lawrence]

So I first reached out to Dave Carlson in summer of 2015. I was interested in his individual story, but I was also trying to answer a question, and that is, can you ever really get past war? And maybe that was a question for me, too. So, Dave Carlson, he's 31. He's a decorated Iraq War combat vet. But back then, he was locked up in jail in Waukesha, Wisconsin. He'd been moved to the jailhouse from a prison because he had a hearing coming up. He'd already served most of four years for a long string of crimes. Theft, drunk driving, battery. He'd done most of that stuff after returning home from his second tour in Iraq. But he'd gotten into more trouble in prison, and now the judge was gonna have to decide whether to add even more time to his sentence. And we talked on the phone a few times from jail, but the first time I actually laid eyes on Dave Carlson was September 3, 2015, at his sentencing hearing. All rise, please. I could see him from behind in a prison jumpsuit. You know, he stole a quick glance backwards toward all the family and friends who'd come. But then the bailiff told him to face front toward the judge. He was the only black man in the dozens of people in court that I recall.

[Dave Carlson]

Take your seats, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.

[Quill Lawrence]

And I'm trying to square this thoughtful, decorated combat vet I've been on the phone with, with this criminal defendant sitting in the dock. A lot of people had turned out to support him, though his grandma took the stand. I have loved David Carlson, my grandson, from the time he was born. And before the hearing, I talked to a bunch of his war buddies. Sergeant David Rock said he met Carlson in 2007 at the beginning of his second deployment.

[Dave Carlson]

When it came to how to lead and how to kind of represent yourself.

[Quill Lawrence]

David was definitely on the list of people that I kind of held in an iconic standpoint. His old friend Josh Fridgen, who was in Special Forces. He'd known Carlsen since 2003 when they met in basic training. When I think of mental toughness, Dave's.

[Dave Carlson]

One of the people that come right to the forefront of my mind. Like, if he sets his mind on something and he believes he can do.

[Quill Lawrence]

It, like he's gonna do it, or he's you know, pretty much he'll die trying to.

[Dave Carlson]

We're here today on the matter State of Wisconsin versus David Carlson.

[Quill Lawrence]

And as the court proceedings begin, the judge almost immediately starts reading off a list of Dave Carlson's past run ins with the justice system. And there were a lot.

[Dave Carlson]

Felony is a felony. Operating under the influence. Arrested in Eau Claire, loss of driving privileges. Bennett was convicted of at least four felonies and bail jumping. Each of them carry with them up to six years in the state prison system. So, so the max exposure here is 12 years today with six years of confinement.

[Quill Lawrence]

And so there I am in the back of the courtroom and I'm just looking at his rock buddies talking about how respected he was. And I'm just thinking, what the hell happened to Dave Carlson that he could wind up sitting here in a prison jumpsuit? I've met a lot of combat vets and Dave Carlson's not the first one I've met in prison. As I got to know him, I would find out how the war had affected him. Carlson has diagnosed ptsd. And vets with PTSD are more likely than other vets to get in trouble with the law and wind up incarcerated. It's also true that vets with PTSD often had pre existing trauma and psychological issues before they even joined the military. They come with a lot of baggage. And that was exactly the case for Dave Carlson. He had a rough upbringing. His mom is white. She says she was trafficked as a sex worker and struggled with addiction. His dad is black. He was drafted at 18 years old and saw combat in Vietnam. When I sat down with Carlson earlier this year, it was really our first big in person interview. After years of phone conversations, he was blunt about his childhood.

[Dave Carlson]

My dad was a crackhead and a pimp. Nothing but violence, guns, like all kinds of stuff like that, drug dealing, all of that stuff.

[Quill Lawrence]

And he blames his dad for a lot of it.

[Dave Carlson]

I was angry for a lot. For much of my life, I was very angry with my dad.

[Quill Lawrence]

But even his mom, who he loved, couldn't provide much parenting. By the time Carlson was a teenager, he was wanted for a string of crimes he'd committed with his older brother.

[Dave Carlson]

But then 15, my mom tried to kill herself again. She was in the psych ward. She, I went to visit her in the psych ward and she told me that if I turn myself in, she'd go get long term help.

[Quill Lawrence]

Carlson says that's how he wound up in juvenile detention. Eventually he's released to his mom's parents. They Lived up in the town of Rice Lake, Wisconsin, not such an urban setting. He was one of the few black kids in town and this was a good time for him. He started high school and he did okay. At least that's what his grandma told the judge at his hearing years later. I can tell you that it was a pleasure always to go to every school conference for David. And he was always on the honor roll. And all teachers spoke well of him. And his grandma said he got good grades and he held down a part time job and he was on the football team. Then he took up Golden Glove boxing. And his coach, Zonny Strandlon, said he was polite, coachable and considerate. In fact, Zonny's wife said, David is the kind of boy you'd love to have as a son. Carlson actually made it to college on a scholarship, but then his, his past kind of started catching up with him.

[Dave Carlson]

So as I went on, like, it was hard. I was kind of just spinning my wheels. I started drinking. Drinking became an issue. And so, like, towards the end of my first semester in college, like, I was just like, really depressed. I felt like, really withdrawn from everybody else. I couldn't make friends. I had like social anxiety horribly.

[Quill Lawrence]

So he decided to outrun that passed. He would enlist. He wanted to go into the army, but, you know, he had a felony record as a juvenile. So they would have had to file this extra paperwork to get a waiver.

[Dave Carlson]

So it was the National Guard recruiter was the one that was willing to do the extra work to get me in.

[Quill Lawrence]

So Carlson joined the National Guard and he went to basic training. And he said it felt good. It felt right.

[Dave Carlson]

I was like, I'm good at this. Like I can do this. And I feel something like, I feel a type of, like, purpose.

[Aisha Rascoe]

When we come back, Dave Carlson goes to war.

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[Judge]

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[Aisha Rascoe]

We're back with the Sunday story and NPR's Quill Lawrence.

[Quill Lawrence]

Dave Carlson enlists in the National Guard, and by the time he's ready to deploy, it's becoming clear that National Guard units are going to be doing extended combat tours. National Guard and Army Reserve troops in Iraq will be staying a bit longer. Active duty troops are already being held longer than expected. Now Guard and Reserve troops are having their tours of duty extended to as long as a year. This is just a couple years after 9, 11. And all of the recruiting zeal and people signing up in big numbers after that is running into the reality that Iraq is not going to be a quick or easy war. And now guardsmen basically have to leave their jobs and spend a year in combat. And that was the case with Dave Carlson. He was told at the time he signed up that he was headed for war. He went on his first tour of duty to Iraq at the end of 2004. And it's just as the Iraq war is starting to get really nasty. He was sent to a base near a town called Dulawiya. And the name of that town actually just sends chills down my spine because I was in Iraq at that same time and I know just how much violence and how much killing was going on in that town around that time. So Carlson's National Guard unit was mostly standing watch back at the base rather than going out on patrols. But Dave Carlson, he wants to do more and he wants to be out there where the fighting is happening and he'll go out on patrol with anyone who'll take him.

[Dave Carlson]

I'd bounce around different squads, like sections going out depending on like my schedule, because I would pull like guard duty for like 8 hours or 10 hours and then I would go on mission with them or I'd get dropped off after mission and then I'd go on Guard duty.

[Quill Lawrence]

Eventually, he started going out on missions with one particular platoon led by an army sergeant named Alwyn Cash, who will later be recognized as one of the heroes of the entire Iraq war. But at the time, he was just the sergeant that Carlson had to pester about going out on patrols.

[Dave Carlson]

I was super nervous. I was a private. I was like a PV2, right. Super nervous to approach this individual. And I'm like, can I come with you on tour? Like, when Snot knows, like, and he put up with it, right?

[Quill Lawrence]

And sometimes he'd wake up, like, Cash was asleep from having been out on patrol all night. And he'd be like, carlson, yeah, okay, yeah, just. Yeah, whatever, yeah, you can come on patrol with us. Just let me sleep.

[Dave Carlson]

They would talk shit. Like the other privates and stuff would talk shit and be like, why the fuck do you even want to come out with us?

[Quill Lawrence]

But Carlson did well out there, but.

[Dave Carlson]

Then a couple of the specialists and then maybe like One of the E5s came up to me and was like, why did you join the Guard?

[Quill Lawrence]

That was meant as a backhanded compliment. They're asking Carlson, basically, why'd you join the Guard? Why aren't you in the Army? And it felt really good.

[Dave Carlson]

I felt like my entire life to anybody that accepts me, right, I just get, like a fierce loyalty to them. And so that was. Yeah, it was like. It was like the best thing in the world.

[Quill Lawrence]

You know, he felt like he'd found his place and maybe, you know, maybe he'd found his new family. And then it's toward the end of that year long deployment, and Cash's platoon calls his National Guard commander asking if they can have Carlson for the next patrol.

[Dave Carlson]

He was just like, I'm not letting you guys go on missions anymore.

[Quill Lawrence]

Basically he hears his National Guard commander say, you know what? No, we've been here for a year. I want to bring all my guys home, and we're just not going to send them out on any more of these patrols. Now, honestly, to you or me, great call, right? You want to bring all your guys home? Who can argue with that? Well, Dave Carlson can.

[Dave Carlson]

Even though we've been doing this all year, for you to fucking make it home and be able to, like, say that you brought everybody, brought everybody home, like, you're willing to, like, deprive this other company of a resource that they may need.

[Quill Lawrence]

In other words, to him it was like saying, let's not do that. Let's let those other guys do that. Let's let Cash go out and do that. And all these other guys that he's starting to feel a loyalty to, guys he's been under fire with, let's let them go out. And this is another really crazy, cruel turn of fate, you know, I'm not sure if it was on that day that that call came through that they said, no, I'm not sending more Guard out. But it was definitely within those couple of weeks. It was October 17, 2005. Sergeant Alwyn Cash and his platoon get ambushed.

[Dave Carlson]

Cash lived for like two weeks. Like 90% of his body had third degree burns on it.

[Quill Lawrence]

During this attack, you know, the explosion somehow, you know, Cash's uniform gets covered with diesel fuel, but he's going back into his burning vehicle to get his men out. And then Cash catches fire. He's on fire, and he goes back in several times. He gets seven of his men out of this vehicle while they're getting shot at, and then he refuses to get on the medevac until all his men are out. He gets on last, and he doesn't die of his wounds till over three weeks later at an army hospital in Texas. Years later, he'll be recognized with the Medal of Honor. One of only eight people to receive the Medal of Honor in the whole Iraq war. It's the military's highest medal. You get it. For doing things that no one could ever reasonably ask of even a fellow soldier. Cash was the only black man to get this medal since Vietnam, by the way. But that's all years down the road. Right at that moment, all it means to Dave Carlson is, I should have been there. Like, why wasn't I there? Why did those guys die? Why did I survive? And those questions, they still haunt Dave Carlson even all these years later when he retells the story.

[Dave Carlson]

Bauckham was an interpreter, their interpreter for the ecp. Burned to death in that. In that.

[Quill Lawrence]

Take a minute, don't worry about it.

[Dave Carlson]

I'm good.

[Quill Lawrence]

Yeah, take a couple deep breaths, whatever. Have a sip, something. You never know when that stuff's gonna hit.

[Dave Carlson]

I think this water.

[Quill Lawrence]

Yeah. We're having this conversation almost 20 years after these men die, but I can see for a moment he's back in that place in Dulawiya, Iraq. And at the time, Carlson says he's just supposed to move on. By November 2005, his tour is over and he goes back to Wisconsin. You know, the regular army, they come home and they're still in the army and they're supposed to have some dwell time. They're supposed to do a job back here in the States before they're deployed again or before they leave and they're with their same unit. When you're in the Guard, everyone scatters to their towns and cities and goes back to their day job, and they're just back on the streets of the usa. When you came home, are you just.

[Dave Carlson]

Yeah, it's home.

[Quill Lawrence]

You're done.

[Dave Carlson]

You're basically one week in a month.

[Quill Lawrence]

Two weeks a year, and you're going to school.

[Mike Orbin]

Yeah.

[Quill Lawrence]

So it's like you're a civilian suddenly.

[Dave Carlson]

Right back to being a civilian. It was bizarre.

[Quill Lawrence]

So not at war, but not really a civilian.

[Dave Carlson]

And so I was just in a really bad headspace. So eventually I was like. I think part of the nightmares were about the fact that, like, I couldn't. Like, there was people still over there dying, like, every day. I was kind of, like, tormented, feeling like a coward, just not feeling like it was right.

[Quill Lawrence]

And so he just starts looking for ways to get back to war. So he volunteers for a second tour.

[Dave Carlson]

And I didn't even tell my girlfriend at the time, so I didn't tell her until I was headed to the first drill.

[Quill Lawrence]

So after being home for about 20 months, Dave Carlson is back on the battlefield, back at war, and in his second tour. He's doing well in combat, but he's also clearly not right. After his first deployment, he told me later, it was like watching himself from the outside. He recalled this one battle where it was just like he stopped caring.

[Dave Carlson]

I just sat there like, I just don't give a fuck. Like, I just didn't care. Like, it was, like, complete calm. I'm seeing tracers everywhere. I'm fucking hearing gunshots, and I'm just calm as shit. There was no sense of urgency. There was nothing. It was like I was just. I'm watching this shit. And that. That came back to my mind was like. It's like. It's like a disco.

[Quill Lawrence]

Something is off about his behavior. He's more and more disengaged on the battlefield. And then when he's not on the battlefield, he's just full of anger. Near the end of his tour, he's heading for some R and R, and he assaults an airport policeman. And he got out of the guard with an honorable discharge, barely. When he's released, his mom, Heidi Carlson, is there waiting.

[Heidi Carlson]

I picked him up at the airport, and I could not believe it was at that time that I coined. There were two phrases. It was the dark place and the Iraq laugh. And his eyes were just completely blank. And he had the craziest laugh. It was very forced and very shallow. And he's like, yeah, mom didn't make it through this one. So good. They. They really got your son this time. And he was just going on and on and on, and I was horrified.

[Quill Lawrence]

And right away, he just starts spiraling out of control. He's getting drunk.

[Dave Carlson]

He's fighting Escalating, escalating, escalating. Thinking that, like, yeah, like, I'm like some kind of, like, Jason Bourne or some shit situation, but really, it's just like I'm, like, deteriorating psychologically. Like, I'm, like I'm losing my.

[Quill Lawrence]

Basically, he told me a story that at one point, he was shooting out streetlights with a Glock, and the police converge on him.

[Dave Carlson]

The cops are up on the. On the bridge in front of me. They're shining the spotlight down there on the sides, and they're just. Basically, they're yelling, drop the weapon. Drop the weapon. So I got it down on my side and, like, I. I'm, like, consciously sitting there, like, I. I need to just, like, raise it up and just, like, fucking end this shit, right? And I was just scared to do it. I think I. I just couldn't do it, like, point the pistol at them and just basically. Suicide by cop.

[Quill Lawrence]

He is eventually taken to a VA psych ward. His mom was shocked by what she.

[Heidi Carlson]

Saw there when he was strapped to the bed, just crying and screaming that he was a murderer. And I'm just rocking him like a baby.

[Quill Lawrence]

That. Stay in the psych ward stabilizes him, but not for long. Carlson starts descending back into drugs and violence, Arrests, bar fights, jail time. His special forces buddy, Josh Fridgen, remembers seeing him after he got out of jail. And I was like, holy shit, I think Dave got worse. So, obviously, Carlson is making some pretty bad choices here, but there's something bigger going on at this point. In America, we've never fought wars this long with no draft, just the same volunteer army doing 1, 2, 3, 3 combat tours. And the VA and the services it provides, those are optional. No one can make you go. But what that means is combat vets like Dave Carlson, many of them with untreated ptsd, are often in free fall.

[Dave Carlson]

I think that sometimes it crossed my mind that, like, maybe I'm. I mean, I'm crazy. Like, I might be crazy.

[Quill Lawrence]

His friends, his mom, they're terrified.

[Heidi Carlson]

Our lives have been consumed with. Where's David? What's he doing? Is he alive? Is he okay? I'm calling the va. They're outreach workers. My son is missing. You gotta go find him. Here's what he looks like. Sending pictures, sending faxes. I have a son who served his country, and now he's out in the woods somewhere, homeless.

[Quill Lawrence]

Then one day, Heidi Carlson says she hears this guy on the radio, a Vietnam vet named Mike Orbin. And he's talking about a lot of the same things from his Perspective as having returned from Vietnam and not found the help he needed for a long time.

[Mike Orbin]

Good morning. Thank you for joining us and welcome to another educational segment of Stigma Free Vet Zone.

[Quill Lawrence]

It's a beautiful. And so she gets in touch with him.

[Mike Orbin]

She called me and she said, I'm desperate. My son is in a lot of trouble. She said, can you go down to the Greyhound bus depot in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and give my son enough money to buy a ticket so he can get back home to Minneapolis? And I said, sure, I'd be happy to do that.

[Quill Lawrence]

And he goes down to the bus station in.

[Mike Orbin]

In downtown Milwaukee and. And David showed up. I noticed immediately he had a big gash on the top of his forehead. Open gash. No, no bandage, no stitches, no nothing. Just an open gash. David had been going out to the bars at night, taking drugs, getting drunk and all of that sort of thing, and had gotten in fights. And that's how somebody had taken a pool cue and hit him over the head.

[Quill Lawrence]

So Mike Orban asked Carlson if he was hungry and he said, yeah. So he took him for a burger and fries.

[Mike Orbin]

When he sat down, and he's sitting across the table from me, so we're looking at each other right in the eye, and all of a sudden his forehead just fell down on top of his hands and he started crying. And I don't mean crying, I mean weeping. And I just looked at him and my heart was just breaking for him because I knew not exactly what he was thinking, but I certainly knew how he felt. And I say, what's going on, man? What's the problem? He said, I just don't even know who I am anymore.

[Quill Lawrence]

And this is where we gotta ask, what do we owe these guys? Dave Carlson, with Mike Orban's help, he gets on a bus, he gets home, and soon enough he gets busted again for DWI and a string of other outstanding charges. This time, he gets sent to where he's been headed probably for a very long time. The Dodge Correctional Institution, north of Milwaukee. It's there in probably what's the worst place for a veteran with ptsd that Dave Carlson begins to find a way out.

[Dave Carlson]

That was probably the big turning point for Dave, where he just started kind of rebuilding.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Be sure to listen to the second part of our series about Iraq war veteran Dave Carter Carlson. Can a combat veteran in prison with PTSD make it on the outside and rebuild his life? You can listen to part two of Carlson's war right now in the up first feed.

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[Dave Carlson]

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Learn more @cidq.org NPR.