Carlson’s War: Part 2

Summary

Up First – “Carlson’s War: Part 2” (A Sunday Story)

Date: November 9, 2025
Host/Reporter: Quill Lawrence, Narrator (Ayesha Rascoe), with guests Dave Carlson, Josh Fridgen, Judge Donald Hasson, and Alicia (Carlson’s wife)

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the in-depth, decade-spanning reporting by Quill Lawrence on Dave Carlson, a combat veteran whose life spiraled after his service in Iraq. Picking up from Carlson’s time in prison, the episode explores his journey through incarceration, relapse, love, faith, parenthood, and the relentless struggle for redemption. Listeners follow Carlson through harrowing lows and moments of hope, ultimately chronicling his emergence as a law school graduate and practicing attorney—while reckoning with the lasting scars and vigilance war leaves behind.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Prison After Combat: Trauma and Survival

• Poor Mental Health and Untreated PTSD (00:35–01:12):

  • Dave Carlson entered prison suffering from severe PTSD, which was not addressed due to limited VA services for incarcerated veterans.
  • He describes prison as sensory hell, with noise and chaos triggering combat flashbacks.

    “Wake up to banging. Well, you know, waking up to mortars is waking up to bang...my adrenaline is spiked.” – Dave Carlson (00:50)

• Combat Tactics in Prison (01:04):

  • Carlson adapted survival strategies from Iraq—like using baby oil traps and cardio training—to prison life, treating the environment as a new warzone.

• Descent into Darkness and Solitary (01:29–02:30):

  • Special Forces friend Josh Fridgen recounts Carlson’s thoughts of suicide and violence, actions he admits were meant to hurt himself and guards.
  • Prolonged solitary confinement forced Carlson to confront his demons but also became a turning point.

    “That's where he said he found God. And then basically that was probably the big turning point for Dave…” – Josh Fridgen (02:51)

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2. A New Mission: Faith, Redemption, and Service

• Finding Faith and Purpose (03:04–03:12):

  • Lonely introspection leads Carlson to a spiritual awakening. He decides to devote his life to helping others avoid his fate.

    “I need to go out and selflessly pursue helping other people…maybe help prevent them from going down the same road that I did.” – Dave Carlson (03:12)

• Sentencing and Second Chances (05:30–07:44):

  • Judge Donald Hasson, a Vietnam vet, acknowledges Carlson's troubled path but ultimately grants him concurrent sentencing, meaning imminent release rather than four additional years in prison.

    “Mr. Carlson, this criminal justice system, frankly, has bent over backwards... The response to all that has not been good.” – Judge Hasson (05:46)
    “I want to [trust you]. That's why I didn't put you in prison today for what amounts to be six years. I'm giving you the challenge, sir... You can do it.” – Judge Hasson (07:09)

• Impact of Respect (08:07):

  • Carlson finds motivation in the judge’s acknowledgment, more than the leniency.

    “At the end. He called me a fine young man. And honestly, it wouldn't matter what sentence he gave me, that meant a lot to me... just for people to see that I've meant well...” – Dave Carlson (08:07)

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3. Reentry: Shock, Relapse, and Redemption

• Struggling on the Outside (08:23–09:03):

  • Carlson re-enters society in December 2015, facing “shell shock” and difficulty adjusting even after years since returning from war.

• Building a Life and Falling in Love (09:19–11:26):

  • Works as a trainer at two gyms, meets Alicia (his future wife) through a competitive workout relationship—initially contentious, then bonding over shared intensity.

    “I think that workout meant a lot to both of us in terms of...seeing someone who has that ability and that, like, mental toughness to push through something that was miserable.” – Alicia (10:55)

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4. Setbacks and Rock Bottom

• Relapse and Crisis (12:04–14:48):

  • After a period of stability, Carlson relapses into substance abuse, disappearing for six weeks. Alicia tracks him down in a seedy hotel room.

    “I had drank alcohol, and I had a pile of cocaine in front of my face... I didn't want to take on my responsibility of being a dad, because I knew that I was gonna...suck at it.” – Dave Carlson (13:24)

  • Alicia and a friend give him an ultimatum: rehab or nothing. He enters VA inpatient rehab, with Alicia’s unwavering commitment:

    “I feel like if I can get him help, he has so much potential. Like, this is just a part of his story. I believe that he has so much more to offer this world...” – Alicia (14:21)

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5. Transformation: Law, Family, Leadership

• Turning Rage into Discipline (15:28–15:58):

  • Carlson embraces the proverb:

    “I would rather be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. …to defend yourself...but then having the discipline, the empathy, the compassion to not do it.” – Dave Carlson (15:28)

• Progress and Giving Back (16:09–18:33):

  • Carlson and Alicia build a new life—she completes grad school, they buy a house, he enrolls in Mitchell Hamline Law School, and together they start the “We Adapt” mentoring initiative for at-risk youth.

    “We Adapt...mentor and serve the communities that Carlson escaped as a kid...he knows these kids look up to him because ...he’s fought at war. But he’s trying to teach them a different lesson.” – Quill Lawrence (18:05)

  • Carlson reflects on the dangers and futility of violence, teaching the next generation restraint and peace.

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6. Tested Again: Responding to Crisis (20:47–22:38)

• Confrontation with the Past (20:47–23:16):

  • While on probation, Carlson is drawn into a dangerous domestic situation involving a client in imminent danger. He uses his training to peacefully subdue an abusive man and calls his probation officer, preparing for possible re-incarceration.

    “We’re fighting down the fucking hallway...I finally get him down...but this time...he’s keeping it together and just using the skills he learned as a soldier.” – Quill Lawrence (22:12)

  • Ultimately, thanks to his new life, support, and knowledge, Carlson is not jailed and continues moving forward.

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7. Milestones and Reflections

• Justice, Recovery & Mutual Healing (24:02–25:56):

  • The journey comes full circle as Carlson graduates law school, supported by family and friends.

  • A poignant exchange redefines the reporter-subject relationship:

    “Why are you interested in a story like this?” – Dave Carlson (25:15)
    “Your support of this person isn’t just part of their recovery. As part of your recovery. Right. Just as important. You’re interconnected, I think...” – Dave Carlson (25:28)

  • Quill recognizes the cathartic power of sharing and bearing witness to these stories.

• Acceptance: Never Letting His Guard Down (27:06–27:46):

  • Carlson admits he can’t truly relax—his mission is to maintain security and support for his family, keeping the “wolves at bay.”

    “I don't think it's ever safe. But...if you can build the community that you have...maybe you can relax a certain amount because somebody's got your six... you can just enjoy those relationships and...your family can...thrive.” – Dave Carlson (27:06)

• Triumph (28:23):

  • Carlson passes the bar and becomes a practicing attorney—a testament to survival, transformation, and resilience against the odds.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Finding Faith in Solitary

  “That's where he found God...that was probably the big turning point for Dave.” – Josh Fridgen (02:51)

• On Respect as Redemption

  “He called me a fine young man...it wouldn't matter what sentence he gave me, that meant a lot to me.” – Dave Carlson (08:07)

• On the Cycle of Recovery

  “You're interconnected, I think. I think you're part of this...the same way that I'm part of your recovery. You're part of my recovery.” – Dave Carlson (25:28)

• On Vigilance After War

  “I don’t think it’s ever safe. But...maybe you can relax a certain amount because somebody’s got your six, right?” – Dave Carlson (27:06)

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Important Timestamps

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment | |------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:35–02:30 | Carlson’s PTSD in prison, isolation, and finding faith | | 05:30–08:23 | Sentencing hearing with Judge Hasson; respect as catalyst for hope | | 09:19–11:26 | Meeting and falling in love with Alicia; the bond of resilience | | 12:04–14:48 | Severe relapse and Alicia’s unwavering intervention | | 15:28–16:09 | “Warrior in the garden” – transforming rage/trauma into discipline | | 18:05–18:33 | Launching mentoring initiative for at-risk youth | | 20:47–23:16 | Carlson’s real-world test: intervening in a domestic violence crisis | | 24:02–25:56 | Law school graduation and reflections on mutual healing/connections | | 27:06–27:46 | Carlson on enduring vigilance and community as post-war safety net | | 28:23 | Passing the bar—Carlson becomes a practicing attorney |

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Final Reflection

With candor and empathy, “Carlson’s War: Part 2” illuminates the lifelong complexity of coming home from war, the grip of trauma, and the incremental, often imperfect path toward healing. Every step—from prison combat to courtroom oath—echoes the notion that redemption is hard-won and never finished. As Carlson himself says: survival is a mission, and “keeping the wolves at bay” sometimes means helping others keep their wolves, too.

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If you or someone you know is in crisis, contact the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling or texting 988. Press 1 for veteran support.

Transcript

[Narrator (possibly Aisha Roscoe)]

This is a Sunday story, and we continue with Quill Lawrence's reporting about combat veteran Dave Carlson. Quill first met Carlson while he was incarcerated more than 10 years ago. @ the time, Carlson was serving a prison term for a variety of crimes he'd committed after two tours in Iraq and a warning. This episode includes explicit language as well as descriptions of violence and mentions of sexual assault and suicide. Quill continues the story from here.

[Quill Lawrence]

Dave Carlson went into prison in very bad mental health. And like we said in episode one, incarcerated veterans get very few VA services. So his PTSD isn't being treated and he does not do well.

[Dave Carlson]

Oh, man. At first, it was really bad. People banging. Like, in certain areas of jails and prisons, people bang a lot. You know, wake up to banging. Well, you know, waking up to mortars is waking up to bang. And then when I wake up like that, my adrenaline is spiked.

[Quill Lawrence]

In prison, he starts to behave like he's still at war. He reverts back into combat mode. He's coming up with tactics to keep the enemy at bay. He came up with a whole system for cell fighting. He would put a slick of baby oil at the entrance to his cell, so anyone who rushes in would slip. And he would train specifically for cardio so he could outlast anyone in that small space.

[Josh Fridgen]

And he's telling me, he's like, man, it was just like I was back in Iraq.

[Quill Lawrence]

Josh Fridgen, his special Forces buddy, was in touch with Carlson after he was sent to prison and said that at one point, Carlson told him he was in such a dark place that he was plotting a kind of suicide attack from his cell.

[Josh Fridgen]

He thought about making a shank, walking up to the guard's window and just slitting his throat and bleeding out in front of them just to give them ptsd.

[Quill Lawrence]

On my calls with him from prison, Carlson told me he was having combat nightmares, and his violent outbursts got him put in solitary for a long time.

[Dave Carlson]

It was screaming 24 7. Screaming, crying, fifis, people piss.

[Quill Lawrence]

Josh Fridgen says Carlson told him he actually felt like he was staring down the devil there in solitary.

[Josh Fridgen]

That's where his head was at that time. So he's got to sit in there alone with his thoughts. And I think that might have been one of the better things for him, where you're kind of forced to sit there and think about your problems.

[Dave Carlson]

It was terrible. I mean, it's silent. It. Besides people screaming, people flooding their cells. But otherwise, there's no. There's no. There's no tv. There's no radio, just none of that stuff. And dealing with that was very hard for me.

[Josh Fridgen]

I think that's where he found God. That's where he said he found God. And then basically that was probably the big turning point for Dave, where he just started kind of rebuilding.

[Quill Lawrence]

To rebuild, Carlson had to find a new mission and he comes to the idea that he should serve others.

[Dave Carlson]

I need to go out and selflessly pursue helping other people that are in my position. You know, I feel like I can maybe help prevent them from going down the same road that I did.

[Quill Lawrence]

So let me set the scene. Just months after he found Faith in solitary, Carlson was due for that sentencing hearing in Waukesha, Wisconsin, the one you heard in episode one where his mom and his grandma and his combat buddies all showed up for him.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

We're here today on the matter State of Wisconsin versus David Carlson.

[Quill Lawrence]

And at this hearing, the judge is deciding whether to extend Carlson's sentence for the new crimes he committed in prison or set him free for time served.

[Narrator (possibly Aisha Roscoe)]

When we come back, the sentence.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

Mr. Carlson, this criminal justice system, frankly, has bent over backwards. And frankly, sir, the response to all that has not been good.

[Narrator (possibly Aisha Roscoe)]

We'll be right back.

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[Quill Lawrence]

For me, sometimes I just need to go and talk to somebody that is.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Not gonna judge me right, is gonna.

[Quill Lawrence]

Be there and they're gonna listen to me.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

And I can't start just saying, look, I'm not feeling right today. And it feels natural.

[Quill Lawrence]

I love it.

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[Narrator (possibly Aisha Roscoe)]

We're back with a Sunday story from up first, here's NPR's Quill Lawrence.

[Quill Lawrence]

Dave Carlson's hearing on September 3, 2015 takes place before Judge Donald Hasson. Hasson happens to be a veteran himself. He served in Vietnam. In his opening remarks, he doesn't sound convinced that Carlson deserves any more second chances.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

Mr. Carlson, this criminal justice system, frankly has bent over backwards and gone through a lot of hoops in an effort to maintain you in the community. And frankly, sir, the response to all that has not been good.

[Quill Lawrence]

When you think about it, Dave Carlson has messed up a lot. All the crimes after he got back from Iraq, plus all the fighting in prison. It adds up. And Judge Hassan seems to have already done the math for Dave Carlson's sentence.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

I'm looking at a fine young man sitting here in front of me today. Then I'm going to end up putting in prison for a little bit. The sentence today is two years on each count. Two years confinement, two years extended supervision for an aggregate of four years.

[Quill Lawrence]

And that sounds like four more years in prison. And his family and his combat buddies all gasp. But then the judge explains that it's concurrent with time served. So actually, he's going to be out in a couple of months.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

That, by my estimation, Mr. Carlson, will better prepare you for your return to the community. Because the next time you come to the community, sir, all that we wish from you is your success.

[Quill Lawrence]

And I realized the judge had the same question I did. How did Dave Carlson go so wrong? And even for all his missteps, the judge is betting that Carlson can fight through this.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

So do I trust you, Mr. Carlson? I want to. And that's why I didn't put you in prison today for what amounts to be six years. I'm giving you the challenge, sir, of leaving the state prison system here in a fairly short period of time. But you know what? You can do it. You're very capable of it. Mr. Carlson, these guys behind you believe that you're capable of it today as well, or they wouldn't be here.

[Quill Lawrence]

Right, sir.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

Okay. So to them, you owe something, too, right?

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Yes, sir.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

You do.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

All right.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

That's the order of the court. Mr. Carlson. We don't need you back for good luck, okay?

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Aye, sir.

[Quill Lawrence]

But the judge isn't taking it on faith that Carlson's gonna make it. The sentence includes 12 years of extended supervision, plus three years of probation. So 15 years. It's a huge amount of time to have a cop looking over your shoulder. Still, when Carlson called me from the jail phone right after, he was elated, mostly because of the respect that the judge had shown him.

[Dave Carlson]

At the end. He called me a fine young man. And honestly, it wouldn't matter what sentence he gave me, that meant a lot to me. I think that throughout all of this, that's all I've been looking for, is just for people to see that I've Meant well and that I went down the wrong road.

[Quill Lawrence]

Dave Carlson walks out of jail a free man on December 30, 2015. He moves into an apartment his grandma has rented for him. He hunkers down. I called him up two weeks after he'd moved in.

[Dave Carlson]

It was like shell shock at first. The first couple days were really bad. It took about a week before I could get my bearings and stuff. Just trying to act like I'm back in the world and life is life.

[Quill Lawrence]

Now, you know, In a way, even though he's been home from war for seven and a half years, at this point, it's almost like his first real re entry to the country coming home because he's been in prisons or institutions for a lot of that time.

[Dave Carlson]

The biggest thing is just trying to keep. Keep a middle ground rather than trying to race too far ahead too quick, you know.

[Quill Lawrence]

And I checked in on him again a couple of months later. You know, he sounded good. Hey. Hey. So how you been?

[Dave Carlson]

Not bad. Just leaving the gym right now.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

Oh yeah.

[Dave Carlson]

Headed up to the other. Headed to the other gym.

[Quill Lawrence]

He tells me he's been exercising like crazy to keep busy and working as a trainer at two gyms. And he's met someone.

[Dave Carlson]

I'm kind of dating a female that. She does CrossFit now, but she also is a personal trainer at the gym that I work at.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

That's cool.

[Dave Carlson]

Just basically it's nothing super serious. It's just we do a lot of workouts together and stuff.

[Quill Lawrence]

That girl, her name's Alicia.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

I was coaching a boot camp class at a boxing gym. And I will never forget the day that he walked into this gym. And I was actually married at the time when he, when we met and we were. I was struggling in that marriage at the time. But he. So he walks into this boxing gym and he had this. He had on high top, Jordan tennis shoes, a sweat like tracksuit almost thing like sweatpants. And then he always wore like a tight fitting, like they wore it in boxing to make him sweat more. But it was like a tight fitting, wicking kind of shirt. And it would be tucked into his sweatpants and just serious, like the most serious person I've ever seen.

[Quill Lawrence]

Alicia at first doesn't like him. She thinks he's kind of an arrogant chump who acts like he owns this gym. But there is this competitive energy between them, a way they both push out this gym vibe and one day they actually have it out.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

I'm not joking when I say this workout was like a deadly workout. It Was just him and I in the gym. And I think it was, like, we both saw a push in each other. Like, you know, I'm not backing down, you're not backing down. And I think that workout meant a lot to both of us in terms of, like, a partner or, like, seeing someone who has that ability and that, like, mental toughness to push through something that was miserable. That was the first thing that we had gone through or did it together.

[Quill Lawrence]

And, you know, in the months ahead, Alicia gets divorced, they move in together, and she starts to realize what she is getting herself into.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

I was like, holy shit. I looked up his record and was like, oh, my gosh, my dad is gonna, like, kill me.

[Quill Lawrence]

But she says it was like they were both starting from nothing. And they're in love. Both of them are thinking about going back to school and a job outside training at the gym. Things go really fast, maybe too fast. Something inside Carlson isn't keeping up. He's been out of prison for about a year. When Alicia says he starts to slip.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

I do like to get a cocktail sometimes at dinner, and I'd always ask, would you care if I'd order a drink with dinner? And he never would care. But then we were at dinner, and he was like, well, I think I'm going to get a drink with you.

[Quill Lawrence]

And what comes next, according to Alicia, is a year and a half of insanity. This kind of relapse, it's pretty common. But Carlson's on probation. He's one drunken traffic stop away from getting hauled back to prison. And amid that insanity, Carlson and Alicia, they get married, and she's pregnant and she's committed. She doesn't want to give up on their marriage. Their son is born right in the thick of it.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

I had a brand new baby. David was completely out of his mind.

[Quill Lawrence]

So Dave Carlson is out of his mind, and then he outright disappears for six weeks. Alicia tries to track him down in some pretty bad parts of town. Finally, she finds him in a hotel.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

They wouldn't let me have a key to the front to his door. And I don't remember the reason, but I ended up figuring out which room it was. And then I, like, removed the screen, and the window was unlocked, and I ended up, like, scaling the side. And I climbed in the window.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I was sitting at a desk. I had drank alcohol, and I had a pile of cocaine in front of my face. Was snorting cocaine.

[Quill Lawrence]

And this is already after you've got a son. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

That Just that I wanted to die. I didn't want to take on my responsibility of being a dad, because I knew that I was gonna. I was gonna suck at it, and I was gonna teach my kids all kinds of bad shit. So maybe. Maybe my dad, it was best that he was gone, not in my life, for the majority of it, because, like, maybe I would have just been even worse off. And maybe I'm gonna do that to my kids. Maybe it's inevitable that that's what's gonna happen. Yeah, I think, like, all of that shit was going through my head.

[Quill Lawrence]

Alicia and a mutual friend lock him in their apartment and say, you're not leaving unless it's to the VA for rehab. And eventually he goes to inpatient rehab at the VA in St. Cloud, Minnesota.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

It was like, I'm just gonna do whatever I need to do to, like, keep this. I want to get David, like, back on the rails, because I feel like if I can get him help, he has so much potential. Like, this is just a part of his story. I believe that he has so much more to offer this world, and he's here for a reason. Like, I just have always felt that with him. Like, he feels like he has a bigger purpose.

[Quill Lawrence]

You know? I was always hoping Carlson was going to make it, but I've seen lots of vets fail. The fact is, by now, we've lost four times more Iraq and Afghanistan vets to suicide than we've lost in combat. So maybe it's holding his new baby in the peace and stability of the VA hospital. Maybe it's Alicia. Maybe it's his growing sense of serving God. Most likely it's all of that. But Dave Carlson is finally able to turn all that rage, all that power in the right direction, a direction more suited for life outside of war.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

There's a quote, and I don't. I'm going to butcher it, possibly, but it's about. It's a proverb about, I would rather be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. And I think that it. It really speaks to. For me, it speaks to being able to. To defend yourself, to be able to do harm, but then having the discipline, having the empathy, having the compassion to not do it.

[Quill Lawrence]

And so that's who Dave Carlson decides he's going to be from. Early in his relationship with Alicia, he talked about going to law school. Now he acts on it. He takes the lsat.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

So then it was, like, just little good things kept happening. Like, I ended up graduating grad school, which was a huge help. We bought our first house in that time, which Was really cool for both of us. And then he got into law school and then, I mean, that was just like, whoa. Like, I can't believe this is happening. That like, you did it. You. You're doing exactly what you said you're going to do.

[Quill Lawrence]

They both felt the change. There's a new energy in the relationship. They have another child, another boy. And for all of us, time keeps passing. There's a pandemic.

[Alicia (Dave Carlson's wife)]

More than 4,100 people have died in New York from COVID 19 so far.

[Quill Lawrence]

And racial justice protests. There have been about 9,000 protest related.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Arrests in the US since the death.

[Quill Lawrence]

Of George Floyd last week. And I was overdue for a check in with Carlson in March of 2021. I call him up on Zoom, which has been invented. What's up? Hey, how are you?

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I'm good. How about yourself?

[Quill Lawrence]

Good, good. Good to see you.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

You as well. A lot better setup than the jail phone.

[Quill Lawrence]

Oh, yes, yes. He's now a student at Mitchell Hamlin law School in St. Paul and he's working as a paralegal on the side. And at this point, I've been talking to Dave Carlson for years. That was a long time ago. Now it feels like a long time. I don't even remember how long ago that was. Yeah, man, that was, I don't know.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Like six, seven years now.

[Quill Lawrence]

And he's close to graduating from law school. And at this stage, when I called to talk with him, it's not really interviews anymore. We're just talking about life, like how we're both new fathers. I'm afraid to jaywalk, you know, I quit chewing.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I chewed. Did you?

[Judge Donald Hasson]

Yeah, I quit chewing.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Like, I was like, damn, this is a selfish ass thing to be doing. Like, he turns 10 years old and I get like jaw cancer or something.

[Quill Lawrence]

You know, he and Alicia, they're making things happen. They founded a company they call We Adapt to mentor and serve the communities that Carlson escaped as a kid. So they're working with youth. They take these young people on mountain biking trips and all sorts of physical fitness stuff, mentoring. And he knows these kids look up to him because he's strong and because he's fought at war. But he's trying to teach them a different lesson about fighting than the one he grew up with.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Like, I thought then that the value was the actual violence, being able to do that violence to other people. It just needed to be deserving people that you did the violence to, which is backwards. Like, now I fully believe and know that violence of any kind is wrong. It's the least effective way to do anything. Now does that mean that they're just if you could snap your fingers and there's no violence? No, because there's still situations that I would be violent over, like my family's safety. And so you have to be able to do that, but you shouldn't want to do that.

[Quill Lawrence]

So again, he's talking about being that warrior in the garden. But it's one thing to talk about how to act. It's different when you get put to the test. And that's what happens next.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I'm yelling like, stop, stop, stop. And so I go in after, like, and I'm playing in my mind. I'm like, like, I'm literally like, like a flashback to Iraq.

[Narrator (possibly Aisha Roscoe)]

We'll be right back with more from the Sunday Story.

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[Quill Lawrence]

So Carlson is in law school. He's a paralegal. He's got a strong family and a growing business. And then this thing happens that could destroy it all.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I'm literally just pulling in the on ramp to Eau Claire and I get a text.

[Quill Lawrence]

It's from a colleague. She has a client in trouble. The client's husband is threatening to rape and kill her in front of her kids. So Carlson and his colleague rush to her house.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

We devised this plan of like we tell the wife, get the kids in the vehicle. You get in the vehicle as we're.

[Quill Lawrence]

Driving by, just pick them up out front. Not going into the house because Carlson's got to protect himself too.

[Sponsor Voice]

Here.

[Quill Lawrence]

He's still on probation.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

So we pull into the driveway and.

[Quill Lawrence]

Then the plan goes to hell. Carlson's colleague jumps out of the car and heads right into the house.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I'm trying to. I'm yelling here, like, stop, stop, stop. And so I go in after, like, and I'm playing in my mind. I'm like, like, I'm literally like, my brain is now processing this as if someone has just kicked the door and I'm second man in.

[Quill Lawrence]

So imagine being Dave Carlson, who did this for two years in Iraq, amped up on adrenaline, kicking in a door and rushing in to maybe kill the people inside before they kill you. That was the mission. That was survival.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

So we get in, the wife is in the corner, like, cowering in the corner.

[Quill Lawrence]

The husband is standing by the stairs. He's a bigger man, but Carlson is on him.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

He slammed into the wall. We're fighting down the fucking hallway. And I finally get him down. Like, I put my. I think I put one leg around, like a hook and jiu jitsu around his thigh.

[Quill Lawrence]

But this time he's not having a PTSD flashback that he can't control. He's not having a relapse. In fact, he's keeping it together and just using the skills he learned as a soldier.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I stretch out and I'm just telling him, you need to relax. You need to relax.

[Quill Lawrence]

And he does. And then it's done. The guy stays down, the wife and kids are safe. The cops arrive. Carlson calls his probation officer. He expects to go to jail.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I go straight to the courthouse. So I went. No, I went straight to the gas station. I bought six hard boiled eggs. I ate six hard boiled eggs, went to the courthouse and then waited.

[Quill Lawrence]

I understand everything except the eggs.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Huh.

[Quill Lawrence]

Why did you eat six hard boiled eggs?

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Oh, because I thought I would be in jail. You get hungry as hell. You get hungry as hell in jail. So if I'm going to go to booking, hard experiences.

[Quill Lawrence]

Told you to fill up before you.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Go to jail up. I thought for sure I was going to jail.

[Quill Lawrence]

Carlson knows things about jail, but this time he also knows lawyers. And when he ends up before a judge, he knows what to say. And he doesn't go to jail. He goes home and he keeps on studying. Then the next time I call Dave Carlson, it's to plan a trip to come see him and his wife. And they're now three boys in person. It's been almost exactly 10 years. And then I'm standing in the bleachers at Mitchell Hamlin law School in St. Paul with his mom, Heidi and Alicia and their three boys who can't sit still. And some of his siblings and a few of his formerly incarcerated friends are sitting together.

[Judge Donald Hasson]

Graduates, will you please stand as you're able for the awarding of your degrees.

[Quill Lawrence]

We hear keynote speaker talk and about how far many of these graduates have traveled to, to get here today. And I just can't help but smile to myself and think, I'm not sure there's anyone here who's come quite as far as Dave Carlson. David Carlson. When I started this story, I had this question. I wanted to know how Dave Carlson, how any combat vet, how anyone gets over war. Carlson went through some very dark times when he was punished for the crimes he committed with a really messed up PTSD brain. Despite this, he'll tell you he loves this country. He's proud of his service. When I went to visit him for the commencement, we sat down face to face to talk one more time. But before I could ask him my question about war, Dave Carlson did something I was not expecting. He asked me a question that's been on his mind.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

Why? Why are you interested in a story like this?

[Quill Lawrence]

Oh, like you?

[Judge Donald Hasson]

Yeah.

[Quill Lawrence]

Oh. I didn't really have an answer, but Carlson did. He knew why I'd been doing this for a decade.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

So are you familiar with the concept of an Alcoholics Anonymous? Like, your recovery depends on the person. Like the person you work with, their recovery. So, like, your support of this person isn't just part of their recovery. As part of your recovery. Right. Just as important. You're interconnected, I think. I think you're part of this. You're part of this network, the same way that I'm part of your recovery. You're part of my recovery.

[Quill Lawrence]

And I saw what he meant. Dave Carlson has been part of my recovery. I want to be clear. I was a war correspondent, not a soldier, but I spent really hard years watching senseless destruction at war. And I lost people I loved. And so for me, coming home, the best thing I could have done was to talk to Dave Carlson and other veterans. And telling their stories helped me understand what we'd all been through and make sense of it and find a new purpose back here at home. As for my question about getting past war, the answer seemed clear to me. Dave Carlson had made it. We were sitting in his big house in Eau Claire. It's big enough for his three boys each to have their own bedrooms. There's a playground right down the street. Carlson and Alicia seem happy. And in my mind, his ten year odyssey is over. He's made it home. But that's not how he sees it. He says he's just keeping the wolves at bay.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

I mean, honestly, like, I don't think it's ever safe. But I think that if you, if you can build the community that you have, like the network that you have for support and then that network is stable, I think that then maybe you can relax a certain amount because somebody's got your six, right? You got the 360 degrees perimeter of, of security. And just right now I think that I'm trying to tighten up my portion, my sector of fire, so that like, when I do relax, you know, I can just enjoy those relationships and that my family can, you know, thrive without there being some impending danger looming just ahead.

[Quill Lawrence]

So that's the mission for Dave Carlson. But still, I hope that sometime, maybe sometime he can let his guard down and even relax and look back on what he's done and feel loved and feel proud. He's earned it. He called me up just the other day. He passed the bar. Dave Carlson is now a practicing attorney.

[Narrator (possibly Aisha Roscoe)]

You can hear more of Quill Lawrence's reporting on VeteransPR.org if you or someone you know may be considering suicide or is in Crisis, call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Press 1 if you're a veteran. This Sunday Story series was produced by Andrew Mambo. It was edited by Janice Schmidt and Andrew Sussman. It was fact checked by Sarah Knight. Kwesi Lee mastered the episodes. Original music for this series composed by Tim Lawrence and performed by Quill and his brother Tim. A special thanks to Luis Trailes, Bruce Oster and the many others who generously provided feedback and assistance. The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Liana Simstrom. Our intern is Thomas Coltrane. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up first is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

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[Quill Lawrence]

An NCIDQ certified interior designer must complete.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

A minimum of six years of specialized education and work experience and pass the.

[Quill Lawrence]

Three part NCIDQ exam. All three exams emphasize and focus on health, safety and welfare of the occupants. It's really about the implementation of design. Good design is never just about aesthetics. It's about intention, safety and impact. We take the responsibility of protecting the public seriously.

[Dave Carlson (continued personal reflections)]

The space needs to be functional, safe and accessible.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

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