Layla Fadel (2:32)

Tomorrow, things are going to get a lot worse for many Americans in the midst of this shutdown. Snap food benefits will run out for about 42 million people.

Amy Martinez (2:42)

Saturday is also when open enrollment begins on federal insurance exchanges and premiums are expected to more than double on average. Democrats want to extend health care subsidies to keep those costs down. But Thursday, major airlines asked Congress to pass Republicans stopgap funding plan. Here's United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby. It's been 30 days. And while I don't have a position on which partisan side and how things should be settled with health care, it has been 30 days. I also think it is time to pass a clean cr. The largest union for federal employees already made a similar call. So how long can Democrats continue to hold out?

Layla Fadel (3:18)

NPR congressional correspondent Barbara Sprunt went to a town hall in Maryland last night to hear what Democratic Senator Angela also Brooks and her constituents had to say.

Barbara Sprunt (3:27)

Good morning, Barbara. Good morning.

Layla Fadel (3:29)

First, I just want to know, are Democratic lawmakers the only ones feeling pressure right now?

Barbara Sprunt (3:34)

Well, you know, on Capitol Hill, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are talking a lot about the consequences of this shutdown, people going without pay, the impending loss of some nutrition assistance. But that hasn't translated to any concrete action. Both sides remain incredibly dug in. And so at this town hall last night, I asked the senator, so how does this end?

Barbara Sprunt (3:55)

I think that the pain that has been allowed to grow impacts all of us. It's not just Democrats. Republicans are suffering, too. And I think some of my colleagues will soon find out that their constituents are suffering as well and that we ought to come together and negotiate.

Barbara Sprunt (4:10)

So you just asked me about pressure. It seems like Democrats are banking on Republican constituents applying pressure to Republican lawmakers.

Layla Fadel (4:18)

Okay, so you're at this town hall. We heard unions already calling on Democrats to pass the continuing resolution from the Republicans and get it over with. Is that also the sentiment you heard from voters?

Barbara Sprunt (4:31)

No.

Barbara Sprunt (4:31)

I mean, in fact, the people that I spoke with at this event told me they want Senate Democrats to hold that line when it comes to withholding their votes, hoping to get negotiations on health care. Here's Christina Thompson, one of the attendees.

Barbara Sprunt (4:44)

I think they should hold out as long as possible. It's clear whose shutdown this is. You know, the Republicans hold all the leverage and all the cards. And if we back out now, then, you know, we're just showing again that the party has no backbone.

Layla Fadel (4:58)

Now this is on track to become the longest running government shutdown. The last long one was in 2019 for 34 days. What are some of the ways that make this shutdown feel different?

Barbara Sprunt (5:10)

Well, Democrats have traditionally been hesitant to shut the government down. And we don't even have to cast too far back down on memory lane here. Back in March, there was a sense that Democrats may hold out on supporting a bill that would fund the government Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer ended up voting alongside Republicans. A shutdown was avoided. And I was with a lot of House Democrats at a retreat when he made that announcement signaling his support. And they were very upset about it. And their thinking was, as the party in the minority, they have very few opportunities to force a negotiation. And they view the shutdown as one of the only, not the only, ways to influence the process. So that brings us to today. And since the shutdown began, we have seen Democrats really united. They are exerting this one leverage point, as they've called it. They don't appear to be backing down, and they seem to think that Republicans will take the blame, not them.

Layla Fadel (6:03)

And what about Republicans? What's their response?

Barbara Sprunt (6:06)

Their message has been, hey, we are holding votes to fund the government. Democrats aren't voting with us. If they care about things like funding nutrition aid and paying air traffic controllers, then they should vote with us. Here's Senate Majority Leader John Thune earlier this week.

Jeff Brumfield (6:19)

This isn't a political game.

Amy Martinez (6:21)

These are real people's lives we're talking about. And you all just figured out 29 days in that, oh, there might be some consequences.

Barbara Sprunt (6:30)

And we should say the Senate has quite literally left the building. They've left for the weekend.

Layla Fadel (6:35)

That's NPR congressional correspondent Barbara Sprunt. Thank you, Barbara.

Barbara Sprunt (6:38)

Thank you.

Layla Fadel (6:39)

As we just heard, 42 million people will start to get cut off from SNAP benefits tomorrow as the shutdown drags on.

Amy Martinez (6:47)

That's never happened before. A federal judge is deciding whether to order the Trump administration to find other ways to get people money to buy food.

Layla Fadel (6:54)

Here to tell us more about all this and what's at stake is NPR's Jennifer Ludden. Hi, Jennifer.

Barbara Sprunt (6:59)

Hi there.

Layla Fadel (7:00)

Okay, so remind us why the administration said it had to cut off SNAP benefits and what's the legal challenge to.

Barbara Sprunt (7:06)

That well, a week ago, the Agriculture Department posted on its website that the well has run dry. In a memo, the agency said because of the shutdown, it doesn't have enough money for SNAP benefits for November. And it said it cannot legally use what's in a contingency fund. It argued that is meant for emergencies like natural disasters. Now, Democratic governors and attorneys general from about two dozen states sued. They said SNAP is an entitlement. It can't just be cut off and doing so would cause irreparable harm. Judge Indra Talwani in Boston seemed to agree with the states. She put it bluntly, Congress put money in an emergency fund. And it is hard for me to understand how this is not an emergency. The judge said lawmakers clearly wanted to protect the American people in the event of something like a shutdown and their intent. She said, I'm quoting here. We're not going to make everyone drop dead because it's a political game someplace else. So a not really veiled reference there to the blame game between Republicans and Democrats over this shutdown.

Layla Fadel (8:09)

Yeah. So millions of people who depend on SNAP food aid won't get it tomorrow. Assuming the judge does rule in favor of the states, when will people actually get the money they need?

Barbara Sprunt (8:21)

It's a good question. You know, even if the ruling comes today or very soon, there will still be some delay. And normally the federal government sends this funding to states well before the first of the month, and then it takes days to get onto the debit, like cards people use at stores. But there's an added complication. Full SNAP funding for November is about $9 billion. There's only five and a half billion in the contingency fund, according to the administration. And it has said recalculating for partial payments would be a logistical nightmare. Could take weeks. So, you know, people will have to wait. We don't know for sure how long, and they'll get less money. Meanwhile, I should add, there's a second lawsuit filed yesterday over cutting off SNAP payments.

Layla Fadel (9:01)

Oh, what's that one about?

Barbara Sprunt (9:02)

So this is a federal suit in Rhode island by eight cities around the country, also nonprofits and business groups. They ending SNAP payments would harm not only people but also local economies, and that includes small businesses who really rely on grocery sales from shoppers using snap.

Layla Fadel (9:19)

In the meantime, states and cities have been scrambling to try and fill the gap, or at least help fill the gap during this delay. Can you give us a sense of what they're doing?

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (9:30)

Yeah.

Barbara Sprunt (9:30)

They've got states like Virginia and Vermont who shifted money to actually pay people directly, at least temporarily. Others are stepping up donations to food banks or looking to help people who may fall behind on their bills. And, you know, people in these places really say they're dealing with a cascade of cutbacks, not just the shutdown, but, you know, mass federal layoffs and funding cuts that have been happening all this year.

Layla Fadel (9:53)

NPR's Jennifer Ludden. Thank you, Jennifer.

Barbara Sprunt (9:55)

Thank you.

Amy Martinez (10:04)

President Trump said on Thursday that he wants to test a nuclear weapon.

Layla Fadel (10:08)

The decision could have huge ramifications. The US hasn't conducted such a test in decades.

Amy Martinez (10:15)

So how would a test like that be done? Let's ask NPR science and security correspondent Jeff Brumfield. So, Jeff, where first would these Tests be?

Jeff Brumfield (10:24)

Well, there's only one place these tests can be done, and that's in the desert outside of Las Vegas, Nevada, at a place called the Nevada National Security Site. It's this big, sprawling complex. It's bigger than the state of Rhode island, actually. Scientists would drill a shaft, probably thousands of feet into the ground. They'd drop a nuke down there, then they'd fill it up with dirt and rock and hit the button.

Amy Martinez (10:47)

So why has it been so long since the US Tested a nuke?

Jeff Brumfield (10:52)

The world's major nuclear powers have observed a moratorium on testing since the 1990s. That was the end of the Cold War, of course, and it was kind of a goodwill gesture. Also helped to ensure stability, that there wasn't an arms race. The US Embarked on a program that uses science at that time. And so the idea was to make sure the weapons work without testing. And a lot of that science has been done in the very same tunnels in Nevada where they used to test. And I had the very, very unusual opportunity to go underground last year, 1,000ft. I saw these sophisticated experiments the US was doing down there instead of nuclear testing. And while I was there, I met Don Haynes, a physicist from Los Alamos National Laboratory. That's, of course, the lab that made the first bomb. At the time, Haynes told me there was no need for a systems test of a nuke.

Amy Martinez (11:43)

Our assessment is that there are no.

Jeff Brumfield (11:45)

System questions that would be answered by a test that would be worth the.

Barbara Sprunt (11:52)

Expense and the effort and the time.

Jeff Brumfield (11:55)

But Haynes was very quick to add that, you know, a decision on testing was above his pay grade, as he put it, and it was down to people like President Trump to make that choice.

Amy Martinez (12:04)

Yeah. So why does President Trump want to test now?

Jeff Brumfield (12:08)

We're not actually sure, but earlier this week, Russia said it had tested some very controversial systems. One was a nuclear powered cruise missile. The other was a nuclear powered underwater torpedo that could be used to attack US Cities. Both of these weapons could evade Trump's proposed Golden Dome missile defense systems. And many experts thought that could be the reason why Trump wants to test now. I should point out they're nuclear powered. Those weren't nuclear weapons tests, but still.

Amy Martinez (12:38)

So if the US does indeed resume nuclear test, I mean, what could the possible consequences be?

Jeff Brumfield (12:45)

Many experts basically said the consequences would be bad. For one thing, the US did way more nuclear tests during the Cold War than Russia and China. So John Wolfsall at the Federation of American Scientists told me this.

Amy Martinez (12:59)

We have a huge technical advantage over both those countries, and if we were to start explosively testing nuclear weapons again, so would Russia and China, and they would be able to close the technical gap with the United States.

Jeff Brumfield (13:10)

And there are environmental consequences as well. You know, Las Vegas has expanded massively in the past 30 years. Even if the radiation is contained underground, as scientists expect, the shaking from a bomb even all that way away could be enough to damage buildings near the site.

Amy Martinez (13:26)

That's NPR's Jeff Brumfield. Jeff, thanks.

Jeff Brumfield (13:28)

Thank you.

Layla Fadel (13:33)

And that's up first for Friday, October 31st. Happy Halloween. I'm Layla Falden Enemy Martinez.

Amy Martinez (13:39)

Families around the world are not having as many kids as they used to. Researchers say women are having half as many children now than they did in the 1970s.

Layla Fadel (13:48)

I don't need another one.

Barbara Sprunt (13:50)

I don't want another one. I love having only one child.

Amy Martinez (13:54)

This weekend on the Sunday story, why are so many families making this choice and what exactly does it mean for our future? That's this Sunday right here in the UPVERSE podcast.

Layla Fadel (14:03)

Today's episode of of up first was edited by Katherine Laidlaw, Kelsey Snell, Brett Neely, Mohamed Albardisi and Ali Schweitzer. It was produced by Ziad Buch, Nia Dumas and Christopher Thomas. We get engineering support from David Greenberg and our technical director is Carly Strange. Join us again on this feed.

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