Grading Trump's First 100 Days, Presidential Retaliation, Detained Student Speaks

Summary

Up First from NPR: Grading Trump's First 100 Days, Presidential Retaliation, Detained Student Speaks

Release Date: April 29, 2025

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1. Grading President Trump's First 100 Days

In the latest episode of NPR's Up First, host Steve Inskeep discusses a significant NPR PBS News Marist poll involving over 1,400 Department of Labor respondents who were asked to grade President Trump's first 100 days in office [00:02]. The results revealed a stark division among voters:

• Failed Grade (F): 45% of respondents rated Trump's performance as an F, indicating a failing mark.
• Excellent Grade (A): Approximately 25% awarded him an A, reflecting strong approval.

Domenico Montanaro, NPR's senior political editor, provides deeper analysis [02:21]. He attributes the high disapproval rates primarily to Trump's handling of tariffs and the economy. Only 39% of voters approved of his economic management—the lowest since his first term. Moreover, 34% supported his tariffs, while nearly 60% believed these tariffs would harm the economy further. Montanaro emphasizes that the economy remains the paramount concern for voters, cutting across age and gender lines [02:36].

Montanaro also highlights Trump's overall approval rating at 42%, marking one of the lowest scores at the 100-day mark historically. He notes the polarized political climate, suggesting that while Trump's base remains steadfast, the broader electorate conveys a clear message of dissatisfaction with his economic policies [03:24].

2. Presidential Retaliation and Government Retargeting

Transitioning from the poll results, the episode delves into President Trump's campaign promise of retribution and its actualization within his administration [05:31]. Tom Dreisbach, an NPR investigative reporter, outlines the breadth of Trump's targeting tactics [06:07]. The President has directed the U.S. government to take action against a wide array of individuals and institutions, including:

• Lawyers and Law Firms: Often associated with Democrats or involved in investigations against Trump.
• Political Opponents: Individuals who have worked on inquiries into Trump or related events like the January 6th riots.
• Media Companies and Universities: Entities that are perceived as critical of Trump's administration.

Notable Actions:

• Criminal Investigations: Initiated directly from the Oval Office, targeting figures such as Christopher Krebs, a former cybersecurity official dismissed by Trump for affirming the 2020 election's integrity [06:36].

  Steve Inskeep: "He's the fraud. He's a disgrace. So we'll find out whether or not it was a safe election. And if it wasn't, he's got a big price to pay." [06:58]

• Department of Education Actions: Investigating universities, including NPR, for perceived biases.

• Immigration Enforcement: Detaining and deporting international students advocating for Palestinian rights, as explored later in the episode.

Tom Dreisbach points out the irony in Trump's accusations against President Biden for using the Justice Department against him, while Trump himself is actively engaging in similar tactics. The administration's stance claims these investigations are about "accountability," despite widespread belief in their unconstitutional nature. Legal challenges have already seen some orders blocked, with judges denouncing them as abuses of power [07:38].

3. Detained Student Mohsen Madawi Speaks

A significant segment of the episode features Mohsen Madawi, a Columbia University student detained in Vermont. Host Leila Fadel reports from the Northwest State Correctional Facility in St. Albans, Vermont, marking the first journalistic meeting with a detained student [09:38].

Mohsen Madawi's Story:

• Background: Madawi, a green card holder and permanent resident, was detained under the guise of a routine naturalization interview [10:11].
• Experiences: Despite maintaining his composure and faith in the justice system, Madawi faces accusations under a rarely used section of the Immigration Act. The government alleges his presence adversely affects U.S. foreign policy and undermines efforts against anti-Semitism, though specifics are scant [12:17].

His lawyer argues that the government's charges are unfounded and that the administration is punishing Palestinian rights advocates unjustly [12:50]. Madawi awaits a federal court hearing in Vermont, where his request for immediate release will be considered.

Mohsen Madawi: "I have faith that justice will prevail." [10:33]

This story underscores the administration's aggressive stance against international advocacy, highlighting concerns over civil liberties and due process.

4. Election of Mark Carney as Canada's Prime Minister

Shifting focus internationally, the episode covers the projected election of Mark Carney as Canada's new Prime Minister, succeeding Pierre Poilievre [13:27]. This political shift is interpreted as a referendum on handling relations with the United States under President Trump’s administration.

Key Points:

• Campaign Dynamics: Carney's victory is partly attributed to diminishing momentum for Poilievre following Justin Trudeau's resignation, which invigorated the Liberal Party.
• Impact of U.S. Trade Policies: Trump's imposition of tariffs on Canada and sharp rhetoric, including threats to annex Canada as the 51st state, ignited Canadian nationalism and influenced voter sentiment [13:48].

Carney's leadership is seen as a response to maintain Canadian sovereignty and manage the economic strains caused by Trump's protectionist policies.

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Conclusion

This episode of Up First provides a comprehensive overview of President Trump's contentious first 100 days, marked by economic dissatisfaction and authoritarian tendencies in targeting opponents. It also sheds light on individual stories like that of Mohsen Madawi, illustrating the personal impacts of broader political strategies. Additionally, the international reverberations of U.S. policies are evident in Canada's recent political changes, reflecting the intertwined nature of North American politics.

For those seeking in-depth analysis and balanced reporting on current events, NPR's Up First continues to deliver essential news to start the day informed.

Transcript

[Steve Inskeep]

A survey asked voters to grade President Trump's first 100 days in office. Some gave him an A, while the most common grade was F. What is.

[Leila Fadel]

Working for the president? And how do some voters think he's falling short?

[Steve Inskeep]

I'm Steve Inskeep with a Martinez, and this is up first from NPR News. The president campaigned on a promise of retribution and also blurred what he meant by that. 100 days in. NPR has a list of people and institutions the president has targeted using government power.

[Leila Fadel]

Also, the US has deported or detained college students who advocated for Palestinians. NPR visited one in detention. I want the American people to see this, too, to see this level of injustice. Stay with us. We've got all the news you need to start your day.

[Emily Kwong]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Odoo. Some describe Odoo's programs for manufacturing, accounting and more as building blocks for creating a custom software suite. Odoo, exactly what a business needs. Sign up today at odoo. That's o-o o.com this message comes from the Nature Conservancy. Working together to create a future with a livable climate, healthy communities and thriving nature. Explore ways to act during Earth Month and every [e-mail] NPR this message comes from Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma. Co NPR hey, it's report card day.

[Leila Fadel]

Now, if that brought back feelings of anxiety from when you were in school, relax, you are not being graded. But the president is.

[Steve Inskeep]

More than 1,400 DoL respondents to an NPR PBS News Marist poll sent in their grades for President Trump's first 100 days. And the most common grade submitted for the President is f. 45% gave him the failing mark. About a quarter of voters gave Trump an A.

[Leila Fadel]

Let's hear now from senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, who's been analyzing the numbers. Domenico so no one likes an F. I am very familiar with that grade, by the way, from my high school years.

[Domenico Montanaro]

I don't believe you.

[Leila Fadel]

It's true. But so, I mean, why did so many respondents give him an fuck?

[Domenico Montanaro]

Well, it really looks like it has a lot to do with tariffs and the economy. And just 39% approve of how he's handling the economy. That's his lowest mark ever for that, including for his first term. An even lower 34% approve of his tariffs. Almost 6 in 10 say Trump's tariffs on imports will hurt the economy. The percentage of people expecting prices to increase is up 7 points from last month.

[Leila Fadel]

Well, that's pretty damning. I mean, the economy is the most important issue for most voters, I would assume.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Yeah, I mean, across all age groups, you know, whether it's men or women, the economy, inflation that comes up over and over again. It was certainly the biggest issue in the 2024 election. And arguably there was no bigger reason that Trump won than his promises to bring prices down. But the bottom line here is that people are sending a very clear message. They largely think these tariffs are a bad idea.

[Leila Fadel]

Okay, now this disapproval of the president can't be just about the economy.

[Domenico Montanaro]

Yeah, that's true. I mean, majorities disapprove of how he's handling most aspects of his job, actually, from tariffs on the economy to foreign policy and immigration, which, by the way, had been a relative strength for Trump. Overall, Trump is down to just a 42% approval rating. That's second only to himself in 2017 for the worst score for any president at the hundred day mark. If you look at the numbers that Gallup has put together since Harry Truman, things can change. Some presidents who were very high at the 100 point mark went down. Others like Bill Clinton, who was only at about 45% at 100 days, left office with a very high approval rating. So we'll see what happens. But we're in very polarized times. I don't expect much to change people's minds. Trump's base, for example, remains very much intact and is giving him a long leash on things like tariffs because they believe in the long run they'll be good for the economy.

[Leila Fadel]

All right, let's get into the sweeping changes Trump's tried to make to the government and Elon Musk, who's led the charge on that front. What do people think about that?

[Domenico Montanaro]

Yeah, none of that is really popular either. Six in ten say that they think that Trump is rushing to make changes. That's up 5 points from last month. About 4 in 10, though mostly Republicans, think he's doing what needs to be done. Still, overwhelmingly, the majority of Americans, 85%, think that Trump should follow court orders, even ones he doesn't like. Think about things like his deportations and government restructuring through Doge, that Department of Government Efficiency that Musk has been heading up. As for Doge and Musk themselves Both are also increasingly unpopular. Just 34% have a favorable view of Musk. That's down five points from last month. In Trump's first hundred days, Musk was at Trump's side a lot, but I think that buddy movie A might be coming to an end soon. Not only is Musk unpopular, but his time as an informal government advisor is up at the end of next month. And Musk himself has said that he's going to be spending less time on doge, given the 71% drop in profits at his company, Tesla.

[Leila Fadel]

That's NPR's Domenico Montanaro. Thanks a lot.

[Domenico Montanaro]

You're welcome.

[Steve Inskeep]

The president campaigned for office promising retribution.

[Leila Fadel]

During that campaign, critics and supporters alike warned that it's wrong for a president to go after people he doesn't like. So Trump downplayed his promise, saying his retribution would merely be success. Now Trump is president in his first 100 days. The president has ordered the US government to target his personal political opponents, as well as law firms, universities, and others. An NPR analysis finds Trump has taken action against more than 100 people and institutions.

[Steve Inskeep]

NPR investigative course Tom Dreisbach compiled that list is with us. Good morning, Tom.

[Tom Dreisbach]

Good morning, Steve.

[Steve Inskeep]

Who exactly is Trump targeting?

[Tom Dreisbach]

Yeah, it's a really wide spectrum of people and institutions that Trump has gone after. It includes lawyers and law firms, often with ties to Democrats, political opponents, people who worked on investigations into Trump or the January 6th rioters, media companies, universities, and then also people who actually worked in the first Trump administration, but who Trump considers disloyal.

[Steve Inskeep]

And when we say targeted, what kinds of actions are involved here?

[Tom Dreisbach]

So it may be the harshest end are these criminal investigations. And Trump has actually ordered multiple Justice Department investigations right from the Oval Office. One of those investigations targets Christopher Krebs. He was a top cybersecurity official in the first Trump administration. Trump fired him back then for saying the 2020 election was safe and secure. And here is what Trump said about Krebs earlier this month.

[Steve Inskeep]

He's the fraud. He's a disgrace. So we'll find out whether or not it was a safe election. And if it wasn't, he's got a big price to pay.

[Tom Dreisbach]

Then there's Miles Taylor, who also served in the first Trump administration. Back then, Taylor wrote this anonymous op ed that said Trump was erratic and dangerous. Here is what Trump said about him.

[Steve Inskeep]

I think he's guilty of treason, if you want to know the truth. But we'll find out. And I assume we're recommending this to the Department of Justice?

[Leila Fadel]

Yes, sir.

[Tom Dreisbach]

So Trump was not just ordering an investigation into Taylor. He was also effectively telling the investigators what he thought the outcome should be. Both Krebs and Taylor say they are being retaliated against for telling the truth.

[Steve Inskeep]

It's striking to think about this, Tom, because Trump, of course, accused President Biden of using the Justice Department against him. Lawfare is what Republicans called it. He said that was wrong. Biden denied he was doing any such thing. Trump is openly doing that, openly doing the thing that he said was wrong. So what other government powers is he using?

[Tom Dreisbach]

Well, we found the administration using more than 10 different agencies in various ways, not just the Justice Department, which we should say is also announcing criminal investigations into the Democratic governor and Attorney General of New Jersey over immigration policy. Trump has also pulled Secret Service protection for two of President Biden's children, Hunter and Ashley. Media companies that Trump dislikes are facing investigations from the fcc. That includes npr, we should say. Universities are facing investigations from the Department of Education. International students who protested the war in Gaza have also faced ICE detention and deportation.

[Steve Inskeep]

Well, what does the administration say about this?

[Tom Dreisbach]

Well, they didn't respond to our requests for comment for this story. And on the one hand, the White House says that Trump is ending what they call the weaponization of government, which you just mentioned. And when they're pressed on this issue, though, and the fact that Trump is actually directing specific criminal investigations from the Oval Office, well, they say their investigations are merited and it's about accountability.

[Steve Inskeep]

What do the people targeted by the power of the presidency have to say?

[Tom Dreisbach]

Well, some are very confident that Trump's actions are unconstitutional and they won't hold up in court. In the cases of the law firms, for example, judges have actually blocked parts of the orders for violating the Constitution. One judge said it was a, quote, shocking abuse of power from the administration. But even the process of investigation can be stressful and scary. Law firms are losing clients, people have lost jobs. And multiple sources said they could not talk with us because speaking out just puts a bigger target on your back.

[Steve Inskeep]

NPR's Tom Dreisbach is speaking about what he found in the facts of his reporting. Thanks so much.

[Tom Dreisbach]

Thanks, Steve.

[Leila Fadel]

In recent months, the Trump administration has locked up and tried to deport multiple students who advocated on behalf of Palestinian rights in the midst of the Israel Hamas war.

[Steve Inskeep]

Our co host, Leila Fadel is in Vermont, where she became the first journalist to meet with any of the students in the facilities where they are held. She's talked with Columbia University student Mohsen Madawi in the Northwest State Correctional Facility in St. Albans, Vermont. Madawi is a green card holder, a permanent resident detained at what he thought would be his naturalization interview for citizenship.

[Leila Fadel]

Leila joins us now from our member station, Vermont Public. Leila Madawi is a student at Columbia. Why was he in Vermont?

[Mohsen Madawi]

Well, a, this is where he lives, where he calls home. And I sat down with him in the state prison where he's being held, since there are no immigration detentions centers here. And the first thing I asked when he walked into the room where I was waiting was, how are you?

[Michael Scholson]

I am centered.

[Leila Fadel]

Internally, I am at peace. While I still know deeply that this is a level of injustice that I am facing, I have faith. I have faith that justice will prevail.

[Mohsen Madawi]

And when he says justice, A, he means his release and his ability to stay in this country. His lawyers filed a petition in federal court here in Vermont accusing government officials of violating his First Amendment rights to free speech and due process in what they argue is a policy by these officials to silence Palestinian rights advocates.

[Leila Fadel]

Did he tell you about the day he was detained?

[Mohsen Madawi]

Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a roller coaster. I mean, he's lived here for 10 years, and he was on track to graduate next month with a bachelor's from Columbia. And he went to this meeting thinking he would finally become an American citizen after growing up in a Palestinian refugee camp in the Israeli occupied West Bank. He says he only understood the concept of freedom of movement or freedom of speech without retaliation from living here. But because he had watched the experiences of other students, he knew there was a risk.

[Leila Fadel]

I see the risk. I see the opportunity, and I want the American people to see this, too.

[Steve Inskeep]

See what?

[Leila Fadel]

To see this level of injustice, that I am doing everything legally, that I have prepared and studied for the Constitution, and that I went willingly and respected the law.

[Mohsen Madawi]

And despite that, he says he's in prison, although the government wasn't able to move him to Louisiana like other students, at least not yet because of an injunction a judge granted here.

[Leila Fadel]

And what is the government saying about why they want to deport him now?

[Mohsen Madawi]

He's not charged with a crime, but as with most of these students, the government is invoking a rarely used Immigration Act. Court filings say his presence has, quote, adverse consequences for foreign policy. In this case, they say his presence would undermine the Middle east peace process and a policy to combat anti Semitism. A letter for the Secretary of State was the only evidence the government submitted this week as proof of this. It did not elaborate on how his presence supposedly undermines Middle east peace or how he supposedly fueled anti Semitism.

[Leila Fadel]

And what have his lawyers said?

[Mohsen Madawi]

One of his lawyers, Luna Druby, says the accusations are completely false and the government is, quote, scraping the bottom of the barrel to punish students for the advocacy of Palestinian been very vocal about his opposition to anti Semitism and is part of peace initiatives with Israeli and Jewish students. Tomorrow, the federal court here in Vermont will hear Mahdawi's request for immediate release as this case continues.

[Leila Fadel]

That's NPR's Leila Fadel. Leila, looking forward to hearing more of this on Morning Edition. Thanks a lot.

[Mohsen Madawi]

Thanks. AC you in D.C.

[Leila Fadel]

Mark Carney has been elected as prime minister of Canada, according to the projections from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

[Steve Inskeep]

This was seen as a referendum on which candidate could best handle the United States under President Trump, who placed tariffs on Canada and sparked a wave of Canadian nationalism. Carney defeated Conservative Party leader Pierre Poilievre.

[Leila Fadel]

Poilievre's momentum began to slip when former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigned earlier this year, which gave the Liberals a lift. But the real boost came when President Trump began targeting Canada's economy and its sovereignty. Many Canadians were outraged by Trump's threat to make Canada the 51st state. And that's up first for Tuesday, April 29th. I'm Imi Martinez.

[Steve Inskeep]

And I'm Steve Inskeep. There's an easy way to stay connected to news and podcasts from the NPR network. It is the NPR app. You can hear community coverage from your local station, stories from around the world and podcast suggestions based on what you like. Download the NPR app, wherever it is you download apps.

[Leila Fadel]

And we got one more thing for you today because you listen up first. We're pretty sure you're the curious type. And since our friends at NPR science podcast Short Wave are some of the most curious people we know, we think you would love to listen to them. They bring you new discoveries, everyday mysteries and the science behind the headlines in under 15 minutes. Here's a great example, the risks and rewards of giving your kids melatonin.

[Steve Inskeep]

This is such a great podcast.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

You're listening to Shortwave from npr. Hey, shortwavers, Emily Kwong here. Okay, so possibly my favorite thing in the entire world is a good night's sleep. I mean, nothing makes a bigger difference to my mental and physical health. Without quality sleep, we're less productive, grumpy. It can even affect our hearts. And for kids, sleep is crucial for physical, mental and emotional development. But there are a lot of things keeping us awake. These screens, electronics, stress, researchers Say that, like adults, kids are having problems falling asleep and staying asleep. So more and more parents are turning to a supplement called melatonin as a possible solution.

[Michael Scholson]

It's like so many parents dream, which is like, is this the answer? Is there this one gummy or this one thing that can help me get through this part of the day that can be really, really hard for parents and families?

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Michael Scholson is a contributing editor at Undark magazine, where he writes and edits stories about science. And he recently looked into why more and more people are using sleep supplements, especially with their kids. Melatonin is a hormone, and it's one that our bodies produce naturally.

[Michael Scholson]

It's part of the way that the body regulates its sleep cycles and gets you toward bedtime.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Every night, the pineal gland in our brain releases a bit of melatonin. So when people take synthetic melatonin in the form of a pill or a.

[Michael Scholson]

Gummy, it also can have that experience of helping people feel a little bit more tired, a little bit sleepy in ways that a lot of people find helpful for getting to sleep.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Melatonin is widely considered safe for adults in low doses and for kids with certain neurological and neurodevelopmental conditions that get in the way of a good night's sleep.

[Michael Scholson]

I think it's really important to understand that when families are seeking to help their children get a better night's sleep, it's not just like an abstract health goal that they're trying to solve. They're often really speaking into very real challenges and very real problems that are affecting all parts of a family and are also really affecting their kids flourishing.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

But some experts worry that we don't know enough about how regularly taking melatonin affects kids in the long term. So today on the show Melatonin and Kids, what the research says, how melatonin is being used, and how to navigate obstacles, forgetting kids. Enough Z's. I'm Emily Kwong, and you're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from npr. Okay, so, Michael, we are talking today about melatonin. It is a hormone that the human body naturally produces. But I want to hear more about the history of this supplement. This is synthetic melatonin that a lot of people have started taking, and some people are giving it to their kids. When did people start taking melatonin?

[Michael Scholson]

So you really start to see an uptick in people taking melatonin in the 1990s. And there's this funny way in which you both have a lot of marketing and interest in it and research sort of coming and saying it. And at the same time, you have this moment when supplements are being deregulated in the United States, meaning Congress has gotten together and said, we're going to put a lot fewer restrictions on supplements and make it easier to. To sell things and make claims. You know, you could find these articles where people are like, whoa, melatonin is the new hot thing. What do we make of it? And there's anxiety around that and there's excitement around that, and it begins to be more widely used.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

And that's mostly for adults. When did children start to use melatonin?

[Michael Scholson]

So a lot of the early news coverage or advertisements have something that says it's not for children. And then starting in the 2000s, that kind of like the age floor begins to drop in this really interesting way. By the late 2000s, you start to see some news reports of parents using it. You start to see articles that are saying, well, maybe for kids older than 10, this makes sense, but not for really small kids. And over time that just kind of gets gradually lower and lower and lower. And. And even then, it's especially in the last few years that it seems to be that clinicians are reporting a real uptick in use.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Yeah. A lot of melatonin packaging is just very friendly looking. I mean, it's like these big bottles and the melatonin supplements come in sometimes very yummy flavors, sometimes they're gummies. So is it really being marketed to kids in a very deliberate way?

[Michael Scholson]

I would say it's being marketed to parents in a very deliberate way, yes. And it's the bottles. It's a lot of the language around saying melatonin is safe and drug free and non habit forming. Right. These are all terms that you hear coming up again and again in this marketing.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Yeah. And I want to add here, a key distinction you make throughout this reporting is that melatonin is not a vitamin, it is a hormone. Why is that distinction so important?

[Michael Scholson]

So melatonin falls into this really weird in between space, right, where I think it's regulated as a supplement and a lot of people think about as being harmless and natural. And it's also something that's a prescription drug in a lot of the world. Right. And is very much a drug. And I think there's like, legally it is not a drug. Legally it is classed as a supplement. And so it's legal to say that it's not a drug. But I think that that can create this weird thing where people think about it as being maybe a little different than what how researchers and physicians describe it, which is they're like, it's a hormone. It's a hormone you take in order to change something in your, sort of create a change in your body. And in that sense, it certainly, even if it is not legally a drug, it certainly is kind of being used like a drug and is acting like a drug.

[Mohsen Madawi]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Let's talk about the research. So obviously there's not enough, but for what is available, what do sleep scientists have to say about kids taking melatonin?

[Michael Scholson]

Sure. So, as you just said, one thing they always say is there's not enough, which people say in almost every field.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

It feels like it's true. We don't really know.

[Michael Scholson]

We'd love to know more. But I think that this really is an area where, and this is something I heard again and again in interviews, where there is a sense that there is very little research, especially on long term effects of melatonin. There's kind of two ways to break down what the science says. Right. What is this? What does the science say about whether it works and then what does the science say about whether it's safe? And in both cases, there's some uncertainty in terms of the what the science says about whether it works. The evidence that exists definitely suggests that, yes, it can help kids fall asleep a little bit earlier, maybe not dramatically earlier, but something kind of on the order of around 20 minutes, maybe a little bit more on average. And of course, that tracks with a lot of anecdotal evidence from parents who say it works, it helps. But there's also a question of whether children are actually better rested the next day. And there again, there's actually some limited evidence. There's not really that much evidence either way showing that children are actually better rested when they have taken melatonin versus they have not.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

No, melatonin is considered fairly safe and benign in terms of overdose potential. But if there are side effects to melatonin, what are they?

[Michael Scholson]

This is again like such a big question to unpack. Right. But there are reasons to say, okay, it's fairly safe. I want to be careful not to generalize that, but one of the big questions is about short term and long term side effects. In terms of short term side effects, they could definitely be there. The ones that are typically recorded in the scientific research tend to be pretty mild. But some researchers feel like that research hasn't been that comprehensive or rigorous and that it's possible that there are kind of immediate or short term side effects that people just haven't really done a Good job of tracking. And then in terms of the long term effects of children who are taking melatonin maybe four or five or six or seven times a week for years on end. And that's a really big open question. And I think some scientists look at that evidence and say, we see that it's helpful for families, we don't see obvious signs of concern. And again, it can be really helpful for people and it's worth doing. In many cases it's still worthwhile. And then I think there are a lot of researchers who look at this and say based on that unknown, we should be cautious. And the way that it's being used right now is many things, but it's not cautious. And that's a problem.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Was melatonin ever supposed to be taken long term? Because it seems like it was originally designed to be a sleep aid for a short term situation.

[Michael Scholson]

Yeah. So I think we should kind of divvy this up for children in different situations. Right. So I think for children with some neurodevelopmental differences that can significantly affect their ability to sleep, autism in particular, certain manifestations of adhd, I think there has been more of a willingness to say, look, these are children who are having in some cases a tremendous difficulty falling asleep, not sleeping or not sleeping well can have some really negative long term effects. And it makes sense to perhaps use melatonin regularly in order to kind of, in order to do that, in order to be helpful.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

It might be beneficial to them.

[Michael Scholson]

It might be beneficial. I think that the way that melatonin is used often right now, which is used regularly, often for neurotypical children who are perhaps sometimes taking the hormone a few times a week or every night with very little sort of supervision or input from a medical professional, is something that very few people intend. And even the supplement makers themselves will often include language that affects on their bottles. But there's a real disjunct between kind of where that consensus is and how I think a lot of people are actually using melatonin.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Okay, for all the desperate parents hanging on your every word, what do experts suggest for kids who have trouble sleeping but they wanna try other solutions first?

[Michael Scholson]

Yeah. And I wanna be really clear that I am not telling families like don't use melatonin or this is definitely dangerous. And I really don't wanna be in any way sort of delivering that message. I think that parents have the right to know what debates among scientists look like and understand where there's uncertainty. And I also think that as parents, we're always having to weigh trade offs. This is just a huge part of parenting. And lack of sleep is itself something that can be really hard on families. And this makes sense. Like, I don't want to suggest that this is a clear cut, like parents stop using melatonin. I think a lot of sleep parents, experts perhaps predictably would say talk to a sleep expert. And I think that one thing that they point out is that establishing good bedtime routines, doing things like avoiding screen time before bed, steps like that can be helpful. And I want to say I'm a parent who has implemented some of these behavioral interventions and still deals with totally chaotic bedtimes with one of my children. And so I don't want, I, I recognize that this doesn't always work or it doesn't always feel like it's gonna work, or it doesn't always sound realistic.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

Well, we want kids to have a good night's sleep for sure. And we want parents to sleep too. So Michael, thank you for dipping your toe in the melatonin research waters so that we all can get a good night's sleep.

[Michael Scholson]

Thanks so much for having me on here.

[Rebecca Ramirez]

This episode was produced by Rachel Carlson. It was edited by our showrunner Rebecca Ramirez, and fact checked by Tyler Jones. Maggie Luthar was the audio engineer, Beth Donovan is our senior director, and Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from npr.

[Leila Fadel]

Thanks for joining us and keep your curiosity satisfied with Shortwave. It's available in the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.

[Emily Kwong]

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