Harvard President says critics' "fire is misdirected"

Summary

Up First from NPR: Harvard President Says Critics' "Fire is Misdirected"

Episode Release Date: May 27, 2025
Host: Steve Inskeep, Leila Fadel, Michel Martin, A Martinez

---

Introduction

In a special episode of NPR's Up First, Harvard University President Alan Garber addresses the ongoing conflicts between Harvard and the Trump administration. The administration's aggressive stance towards the prestigious institution has led to multiple lawsuits and significant financial repercussions for Harvard. President Garber provides insights into the university's stance, the challenges it faces, and the broader implications for academic institutions nationwide.

---

Background: Administration's Actions Against Harvard

The episode opens with NPR's report on President Trump's administration targeting Harvard University. The administration has initiated two lawsuits against Harvard, halted approximately $2 billion in grants and contracts, and recently ordered all international students to leave the university. This marks a continuation of what NPR describes as a series of attacks aimed at the nation's oldest university.

Key Points:

• Financial Sanctions: The administration has canceled an additional $100 million in contracts with Harvard, building on previous measures.
• International Student Ban: A prestigious move to exclude international students, who constitute about a quarter of Harvard's student body, has been temporarily blocked by a judge.

---

Discussion with Alan Garber

Host – Steve Inskeep (00:00):
Steve Inskeep initiates the conversation by questioning the administration's motives, suggesting that the actions might be a broader warning to other universities.

Alan Garber (00:06):
Agreeing with the characterization, Garber emphasizes the need for universities to stand firm in their commitments.

---

Federal Government's Claims and Harvard's Response

Inskeep (01:42):
Inskeep outlines the Trump administration's accusations against Harvard, including alleged anti-Semitism, lack of viewpoint diversity, and failure to comply with discrimination laws.

Garber (02:14):
Garber acknowledges some internal issues, particularly concerning free speech and the environment for conservative viewpoints. He states, “We need to address that. It includes skills in speaking as well as skills in listening” (03:14). However, he criticizes the administration's methods, arguing that cutting off research funding harms both Harvard and the country's advancement.

Notable Quote:
“Shutting off that work does not help the country, even as it punishes Harvard.” (04:09)

---

Impact on Research and National Interests

Garber highlights Harvard's role in significant research advancements, including breakthroughs in cancer treatments and gene editing. He warns that reducing federal funding to research universities like Harvard would impede the United States' position in science and technology.

Key Points:

• Research Contributions: Harvard's research has led to life-saving medical advancements.
• National Competitiveness: Cuts to research funding threaten America's leading role in global innovation.

Notable Quote:
“Everybody benefits from the research work of universities like ours.” (11:44)

---

Role of International Students

International students are vital to Harvard's academic and cultural environment. Garber argues that excluding them diminishes the diversity and global perspective that enrich the university community.

Inskeep (06:01):
Questions the basis of the administration's accusations regarding Harvard's refusal to provide information on international students.

Garber (06:24):
Denies the claims, stating, “We have endeavored to comply fully in line with the law, with the requests that the government has made.” (06:26).

Notable Quote:
“We want people to be able to discuss difficult topics with one another, especially when they disagree.” (10:40)

---

Addressing Antisemitism and Campus Division

Garber admits that Harvard has faced challenges related to antisemitism and campus division. A presidential commission report identified social exclusion and shunning behaviors, particularly against Jewish and Israeli students.

Key Points:

• Progress Made: Significant improvements have been achieved over the past year in reducing antisemitic incidents.
• Ongoing Challenges: Social exclusion remains a critical issue that Harvard continues to address.

Notable Quote:
“We have made substantial progress on campus over the past year.” (09:16)

---

Warning to Other Universities

Garber acknowledges the administration's statement that Harvard's situation serves as a cautionary tale for other academic institutions. He urges universities nationwide to remain committed to their foundational values despite external pressures.

Notable Quote:
“We need to be firm in our commitments to what we stand for.” (18:48)

---

Concluding Remarks

As Harvard approaches its graduation week, President Garber underscores the university's dedication to education, research, and serving the nation. He emphasizes that attacking academic institutions undermines the collective effort to advance knowledge and societal well-being.

Final Quote:
“When we fail in that, then we can expect to be attacked.” (19:17)

---

Conclusion

Alan Garber's interview provides a comprehensive look into the tensions between Harvard University and the Trump administration. While acknowledging internal challenges, Garber defends Harvard's contributions to research and education, criticizes the administration's punitive measures, and calls on other universities to uphold their commitments to truth and service. The episode underscores the broader implications of governmental actions on academic freedom and national progress.

---

Key Takeaways

• Governmental Pressure: The Trump administration's actions against Harvard represent a significant challenge to academic freedom and research funding.
• Harvard’s Defense: President Garber eloquently argues that the administration's measures are detrimental not only to Harvard but to national interests.
• Importance of Diversity: The presence of international students is crucial for fostering a diverse and intellectually vibrant campus environment.
• Call to Action: Other universities are urged to stand firm against external pressures and remain committed to their core missions.

---

Supporting Quotes with Timestamps

• Commitment to Values:
  “We need to be firm in our commitments to what we stand for.” (18:48)

• Impact of Research Cuts:
  “Shutting off that work does not help the country, even as it punishes Harvard.” (04:09)

• Addressing Campus Issues:
  “We have made substantial progress on campus over the past year.” (09:16)

• Role of International Students:
  “We want people to be able to discuss difficult topics with one another, especially when they disagree.” (10:40)

• Commitment to Truth and Service:
  “When we fail in that, then we can expect to be attacked.” (19:17)

---

This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, providing listeners and readers with a comprehensive understanding of the discussions between NPR and Harvard President Alan Garber. It highlights the key issues, Garber's responses, and the broader implications for academic institutions facing governmental scrutiny.

Transcript

[Steve Inskeep]

I wonder if you agree with that statement that this episode is in fact a warning to all universities across the country.

[Alan Garber]

Well, they said it, and I have to believe it, and I've repeated it myself.

[NPR Host]

President Trump's administration strikes again and again at the nation's oldest university. And Harvard has now sued the administration twice. What does the university do now? We have an interview with Harvard President Alan Garber in a special episode of up first from NPR News. Coming up, Alan Garber calls on universities to insist on their rights.

[Alan Garber]

We need to be firm in our commitments to what we stand for.

[NPR Host]

He also admits Harvard has not always lived up to its commitment to the truth.

[Alan Garber]

When we fail in that, then we can expect to be attacked.

[NPR Host]

Harvard has been attacked. So what does the president think his university is doing right and wrong? We put questions to Alan Garber, a figure in the news today. President Trump's administration began this week the same way that it ended last week, with attacks on Harvard University. NPR has confirmed the administration plans to cancel another $100 million in contracts with Harvard. The administration had already put on hold some $2 billion in grants and contracts. Last week, the administration banned Harvard from hosting foreign students and that prom Harvard President Alan Garber to sue for the second time. A judge temporarily blocked the administration, so foreign students can stay for now. But when we sat down with Garber on Monday, he knew the fight was far from over.

[Steve Inskeep]

As you know very well, Mr. President, the Trump administration has taken a number of actions against Harvard University. They've cut off grants in a number of different ways, and most recently, they've ordered all international students to leave the university for some other university or for their home countries. In your lawsuit, the most recent of your lawsuits about this, you argue very quickly that this isn't really about international students, that it's an act of retaliation. What is really going on, in your view?

[Alan Garber]

In my view, the federal government is saying that we need to address antisemitism in particular, but it has raised other issues, including issues about speech, and it includes claims that we lack viewpoint diversity. There are also claims about failure to comply with laws concerning discrimination more generally. For some of this, we have been very clear that we think we do have issues, and I would particularly emphasize the speech issues. We think it's a real problem if particularly research universities, students don't feel free to speak their minds when faculty feel that they have to think twice before.

[NPR Contributor]

They talk about the subjects that they're teaching.

[Alan Garber]

That's a real problem that we need to address. It's particularly concerning when people who have.

[NPR Contributor]

Views that they think are unpopular.

[Alan Garber]

And the administration and others have said conservatives are too few on campus and their views are not welcome. Insofar as that's true, that's a problem we really need to address.

[Steve Inskeep]

Is it true?

[Alan Garber]

I think that we have heard from some people that they do feel that way. So we certainly need to address that. And that means changing views in the community, making diverse viewpoints more welcome. It includes skills in speaking as well as skills in listening. So the federal government has referred to some of these areas and as I said, we agree that some of these problems we absolutely need to address. What is perplexing is the measures that.

[NPR Contributor]

They have taken to address these that.

[Alan Garber]

Don'T even hit the same people that.

[NPR Contributor]

They believe are causing the problems.

[Alan Garber]

Why cut off research funding? Sure, it hurts Harvard, but it hurts the country because after all, the research funding is not a gift. The research funding is given to universities and other research institutions to carry out work that the research work that the federal government designates as high priority work. It is work that they want done. They are paying to have that work conducted. Shutting off that work does not help the country, even as it punishes Harvard.

[NPR Contributor]

And it is hard to see the.

[Alan Garber]

Link between that and say, anti Semitism.

[Steve Inskeep]

If you don't see a link, it raises the question of what you think the government is really doing. Is the administration trying to damage, destroy or capture your university?

[NPR Contributor]

I don't know fully what the motivations.

[Alan Garber]

Are, but I do know that there are people who are fighting a cultural battle. I don't know if that is what is driving the administration.

[NPR Contributor]

They don't like what's happened to campuses.

[Alan Garber]

And sometimes they don't like what we represent.

[NPR Contributor]

What I can tell you is Harvard.

[Alan Garber]

Is a very old institution, much older than the country.

[NPR Contributor]

And as long as there has been.

[Alan Garber]

A United States of America, Harvard has.

[NPR Contributor]

Thought that its role is to serve the nation.

[Alan Garber]

I believe I speak for nearly every other university as well in believing that is our goal. And that is why, insofar as there.

[NPR Contributor]

Are people who would like to see these universities brought down, in some sense.

[Alan Garber]

I think that their fire is misdirected because we have a common interest in making the nation, and indeed the world a better place.

[Steve Inskeep]

In the letter, cutting off your ability to host international students, the Department of Homeland Security made a number of accusations, including these, that you, Harvard, brazenly refused to provide information that was demanded about international students and that you also, quote, ignored a follow up question about them. Is either of those statements true?

[NPR Contributor]

To the best of My knowledge they are not true.

[Alan Garber]

I need to add, by the way, that this is clearly the subject of litigation, as you pointed out earlier. So we have endeavored to comply fully in line with the law, with the requests that the government has made.

[Steve Inskeep]

Are you going to be able to show in court that you provided information, which I believe your lawsuit says you did?

[Alan Garber]

I believe we have provided ample information in line with the law.

[Steve Inskeep]

In that same statement announcing that you would lose the right to host international students, the DHS was able to link to one of Harvard's own documents. It's a report by a presidential commission to you. So it's your commission investigating problems at Harvard University. And I read through the document. There are a lot of accusations in there about things that have gone wrong here. And my eye fell on one sentence, which I wrote down. I'll quote it to you. Since fall 2020, three different factions at Harvard have fought to force various university leaders to make statements. Invest, divest, hire, fire docs, undocs, discipline students, and undiscipline them. That's your own commission talking about this university. How would you define the problem?

[Alan Garber]

Well, clearly there has been tremendous division on campus over that period of time. There are faculty and students who disagreed with one another about what the university should do. But the main purpose of that report was to identify the problems that we.

[NPR Contributor]

Face, particularly with regard to our Jewish and Israeli students. And they took a very hard look.

[Alan Garber]

And they listened to many, many people. They had dozens of listening sessions and put together what they thought was a comprehensive picture of how basically how people felt on campus about issues touching on not only Jewish and Israeli students, but faculty and staff and the broader community as well. And their work led to a series of recommendations. And I take very seriously not only their identification of the problems, but the recommendations that they made about how we should address them.

[NPR Contributor]

Some of those recommendations we had already.

[Alan Garber]

Adopted, some we are currently working through. But I do believe that we have a real problem in this regard, or we had a real problem. We had done a lot to address it, and we will continue to work at it.

[Steve Inskeep]

Would you say that antisemitism on your campus is better, worse, or about the same as it would be anywhere else in America?

[Alan Garber]

I believe that we have made substantial progress on campus over the past year, and that's what I've heard from many faculty and staff and students. There has been real progress. Comparing what goes on on campus to what goes on in the rest of the country is a little bit difficult because the manifestations may be different from what I've heard we have many fewer violent incidents. They're almost unheard of on our campus.

[NPR Contributor]

And probably a lot less vandalism. The main manifestation of antisemitism and anti.

[Alan Garber]

Israeli bias that we have grappled with has to do with social exclusion. It has to do with shunning. If a student sits down at a dining room table and they have good conversations with other students who don't know them, and when the other students find out that that student is Israeli, if they refuse to continue to speak to them, we have a serious problem that we need to address. That has been to me the most.

[NPR Contributor]

Disturbing aspect of what we've experienced.

[Alan Garber]

And it was highlighted in that report. That is why the problem we're trying to solve requires different solutions perhaps than what we do throughout the nation.

[Steve Inskeep]

Is that a small example of what you're trying to do in a large way? You want to allow all sorts of ideas, but you want people to be able to engage each other civilly and.

[Alan Garber]

Not exactly. Exactly. We want people to be able to discuss difficult topics with one another, especially when they disagree. We shouldn't be in an echo chamber. Everyone in our community needs to hear other views.

[NPR Contributor]

And let me add, that's one reason.

[Alan Garber]

Why it is so important for us to be able to have international students on our campus. They come from different cultures, they have different experiences, different languages. There is so much that they contribute to our environment and they enable everyone else to open their minds.

[Steve Inskeep]

Is this what you mean when in the lawsuit you say that without international students, which is a quarter of your student body, Harvard would not be Harvard?

[NPR Contributor]

Absolutely.

[Steve Inskeep]

You argue that it's a benefit for us born students to have the international students here.

[Alan Garber]

Absolutely. And not only other students, for the other members of our community as well. Harvard is an American institution that is engaged globally and I wouldn't want to change that. It's in the interest of the university. It's in the interest of the nation.

[NPR Host]

We're listening to the NPR interview with Alan Garber, the president of Harvard University. Now, people have strong feelings about Harvard and. And that's what we'll discuss in the next part of our interview. What would the president say to somebody who thinks this elite university deserves what it's getting? Stay with us.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell. Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout. To help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today.

[Ann Marie Baldonado]

This is FRESH AIR contributor Ann Marie Baldonado. I talked with actor Cole Escola about their hit Broadway play oh, Mary who? Cole plays an unhinged alcoholic Mary Todd Lincoln, who's an aspiring cabaret performer. If that makes no sense, that's part of the point. You can find my interview on the FRESH AIR podcast. Know that fizzy feeling you get when you read something really good? Watch the movie everyone's been talking about, or catch the show that the Internet can't get over. At the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast, we chase that feeling through. Four times a week, we'll serve you recommendations and commentary on the buzziest movies, tv, music and more, from low brow to highbrow to the stuff in between. Catch the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from npr.

[NPR Host]

Our conversation with Alan Garber took place at the start of Harvard's graduation week. It's a week spent celebrating the university and its traditions and its students. We saw the preparations around campus, but of course, most voters never attend Harvard. And that political reality informed the last part of our conversation with the university president.

[Steve Inskeep]

What would you say to someone in the middle of the country where I come from, where you come from, who is listening to us and maybe thinking, I really don't have a stake in this. I didn't go to Harvard. I'm not sending my kid to Harvard. I really don't like Harvard that much. This seems to be about a different kind of people, and Harvard deserves what they're getting. Or in any case, it doesn't matter much to me. What would you say to somebody who has that attitude?

[Alan Garber]

I would ask them to learn a little bit more not only about Harvard, but about universities like Harvard, that is research universities. @ the center of our university is teaching and learning that's so crucial to what we do. But actually, if you look at the activities of the university, so much of this is about research. There are so many discoveries that have come from Harvard and other research universities.

[NPR Contributor]

Advances in cancer, in treatments of cancer.

[Alan Garber]

Of all kinds of A faculty member of ours just got the breakthrough prize for work that led to the discovery of GLP1 drugs, which are now revolutionizing how we approach obesity, diabetes and many other conditions. Another one of our faculty received the breakthrough prize this year for advances in gene editing, which is already being used to cure Diseases.

[NPR Contributor]

This is a huge part of what we do.

[Alan Garber]

Everybody benefits from the research work of universities like ours.

[NPR Contributor]

It is not only about Harvard.

[Alan Garber]

And I think that's important to keep in mind the kinds of changes that the administration has begun and is contemplating, which include deep cuts to the National Institutes of Health and to the National Science foundation, will affect all research universities and will have a real impact on the ability of the United States to remain at the forefront of science and technology.

[Steve Inskeep]

When President Trump says, as he did this week, that Harvard's grants ought to go to trade schools instead, how do you respond to that?

[NPR Contributor]

I would say that the federal government.

[Alan Garber]

Has the authority through the budgeting process.

[NPR Contributor]

Process to reallocate funds.

[Alan Garber]

But the question to ask is, what problem is he trying to solve by doing that? The money that goes to research universities.

[NPR Contributor]

In the form of grants and contracts.

[Alan Garber]

Which is almost all of the federal support that we get, is used to pay for work that we perform at.

[NPR Contributor]

The behest of the government.

[Alan Garber]

So in reallocating to some other use, including trade schools, it means that work just won't be performed. So the right question is, is this.

[NPR Contributor]

The most effective use of federal funding? Do you really want to cut back on research dollars?

[Alan Garber]

I'm less concerned about whether it goes to a trade school or if it goes to some other project like working on highways. The real question is, how much value does the federal government get from its expenditures on research? There is a lot of actual research demonstrating the returns to the American people have been enormous.

[Steve Inskeep]

One other thing, in reading the DHS Department of Homeland Security statement about Harvard, there is a line that struck me. Let this serve as a warning. They're talking about their actions against Harvard. Let this serve as a warning to all universities and academic institutions across the country. I wonder if you agree with that statement, that this is, in fact, this episode is in fact a warning to all universities across the country.

[Alan Garber]

Well, they said it and I have to believe it, and I've repeated it myself. And that is how it's understood by the other leaders of other universities that.

[NPR Contributor]

I have spoken to.

[Alan Garber]

It is a warning. They see this as a message that.

[NPR Contributor]

If you don't comply with what we're.

[Alan Garber]

Demanding, these will be the consequences.

[Steve Inskeep]

If you were going to make a warning to other universities, how would you phrase it?

[Alan Garber]

I would say that we need to be firm in our commitments to what we stand for.

[NPR Contributor]

What we stand for.

[Alan Garber]

I believe. I believe I speak for other universities. Is education, pursuit of the truth, helping to educate people for better futures, our.

[NPR Contributor]

Own students, and hopefully our own students after they graduate from our institutions, go.

[Alan Garber]

Out and serve the world. In the end, we're about producing and disseminating knowledge and serving our nation and our world. When we fail in that, then we can expect to be attacked. So, number one, I think we all need to redouble our commitment to the good of the nation and the world, and I know my fellow leaders fully embrace that.

[Steve Inskeep]

Mr. President, thanks so much for your time.

[Alan Garber]

Thank you.

[NPR Host]

Alan Garber, the president of Harvard University, who came by the studios of one of our Boston member stations, wbur. The president has since moved on to the rituals of graduation, which will proceed as they have for centuries in a political environment like no other. This has been a special episode of up first from NPR News. It's produced by Anna Pettis and edited by Reena Advani. Our executive producer is Jay Shaler. I'm Steve Inskeep.

[NPR Sponsor]

Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to up first sponsor free through Amazon Music.

[NPR Music Host]

Look, we get it. When it comes to new music, there is a lot of it and it all comes really fast. But on all songs considered, NPR's music recommendation podcast will handpick what we think's the greatest music happening right now and give you your next great listen. So kick back, settle in, get those ears drums wide open and get your dose of new music from All Songs Considered only from npr.

[NPR Comedy Host]

Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important, but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals in ridiculous science studies and call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Yes, that is what it is called. Wherever you get your podcasts.