Podcast Summary: Up First from NPR — "Higher Education's AI Problem"

Host: Aisha Rascoe
Guest: Lee Gaines, Education Reporter
Air Date: November 23, 2025
Length: ~30 minutes (main content ~28 minutes)

Episode Overview

This episode of "The Sunday Story" dives into how generative AI, especially ChatGPT, has rapidly and fundamentally changed higher education. With new AI tools woven into everyday student life, the podcast explores the impact on teaching, learning, academic integrity, and the job market for graduates. Aisha Rascoe and reporter Lee Gaines talk to professors, students, and administrators about the challenges and opportunities AI brings—and what’s at stake for colleges and universities navigating this technological revolution.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Rapid Rise of AI in Education

• Background: Since ChatGPT's public debut in late 2022, generative AI has “infiltrated so many aspects of our lives, including higher education.” (Aisha Rascoe, 00:13)
• Historical context: The transformation is compared to the Internet or the Industrial Revolution. (Lee Gaines, 02:44)

2. Student Perspective: Max Moundus' Anxiety

• Initial Impact: Max, a Vanderbilt senior in 2023, describes panic and existential dread about his future in computer science with the arrival of AI tools.

  “I was basically having perpetual panic attacks and catastrophizing the situation.” (Max Moundus, 03:41)

• Questioning Value: He worries his four years and tuition might be “obsolete.” (03:41)

3. Professors Respond: Can AI Do the Work?

• Dan Arena's Experiment: Vanderbilt prof Dan Arena gives his CS final to ChatGPT in 2023.
  • “Much to my surprise, ChatGPT actually did the lowest in one of my sections.” (Dan Arena, 05:39)
  • He reassures students: “You are significantly more prepared than ChatGPT is to take on a role in computer science and industry.” (05:55)
• AI Progresses: In 2025, Arena repeats the test with a newer GPT version: it scores in the low 80s but still lags behind students. (06:39)
• Outlook: Arena’s calm but pragmatic:

  “At the point that it really does catch up...I need to say, like, okay, well, how can I then incorporate this technology to make them…better and more productive…” (Dan Arena, 07:05)

4. University Leadership: The Changing Job Market

• Tanya Tetlow, Fordham President:

  “Coding jobs in computer science, for example, have started to disappear...applications for computer science majors went down by a third last year.” (07:55)

  • Stresses the need for students to learn “the most human of skills,” e.g., critical thinking, emotional intelligence, and ethical judgment. (08:47, 08:59)
• Tetlow’s advice to universities: Teach students both tech proficiency and uniquely human abilities.

5. Prevalence of AI Usage Among Students

• Survey results: 85% of undergrads surveyed used generative AI for coursework in the past year; about half said it supported learning (e.g., brainstorming), while a quarter used it to complete assignments, and 19% had AI write full essays. (09:39–10:17)

  “That's not good...they’re basically cheating, right?” (Aisha Rascoe, 10:33)

6. Students’ Justifications and Self-Reflection

• Aisha Tarana (recent grad):

  “It just makes it easier to be better and get to my goals faster…and that was kind of the theme...” (Aisha Tarana, 11:31)

• Mixed bag: Some use AI as a study partner; others use it to offload all their work. (Aisha Rascoe, 12:09)

7. Academic Responses: Embracing or Resisting AI

Leslie Clement (Johnson C. Smith University)

• Embracing AI:
  “It’s absolutely changed how I teach...It’s expanded how I think and how I learn.” (Leslie Clement, 13:02)
  • Encourages responsible use: “We encourage them to use it because we know they're going to use it, but to use it in a responsible way.” (13:30)
• Practical strategies: Students can use AI to create outlines or find sources, but must fact-check and reflect on changes made by AI editors. (13:39–14:04)
• Course Innovation: Co-created “AI and the African Diaspora,” using Latimer AI to provide more Black history/experience context than ChatGPT. (14:41)

Dan Cryer (Johnson County Community College)

• Skeptical/Resistant:
  “On a scale of 0 to 10...I’m probably in like a 1 or a 2.” (Dan Cryer, 17:10)
  • Fears students use AI as a shortcut and miss the intellectual development that’s the real goal.

  “The product is not where it’s at...We need students to go through the process so that they can become better thinkers...” (Dan Cryer, 17:44) “Using AI is basically like bringing a forklift to the gym.” (Paraphrased, 18:29)

• Worried about easy access: MS Copilot and other tools are often given for free, tempting students to misuse them. (19:16)

8. AI’s Impact on Critical Thinking and Trust

• Emerging research: MIT study showed that people using AI for essays had lower neural engagement vs. those using Google Search or only their own brains. (19:40–20:12)
• Student concern:

  “The biggest concern...was the conversation around it hindering critical thinking...here's another outlet for you to not critically think.” (Aisha Tarana, 20:41)

• Classroom trust erodes: Detection tools are unreliable; students can “humanize” AI text to evade them; policing AI undermines trust.

  “It’s a mess, honestly.” (Lee Gaines, 22:23) “That trust relationship...has really broken down.” (Dan Cryer, 24:10)

9. Teaching Adaptations

• Clement: Fewer papers, more collaborative and in-class reading/discussion—students read in class to avoid outsourcing to AI. (23:19)
• Cryer: More in-class writing, less online work. Teachers are working harder to redesign instruction.

10. The Dilemma for Higher Ed

• Universities can’t ignore AI: Total ban isn't feasible, but full embrace is risky.
  • Tetlow:

    “Where we use AI as a tool to do important and good work better, it is responsible. Where we seed our judgment and responsibilities to technology...we have violated our own duties.” (Tanya Tetlow, 25:35)

11. Where Are Students Now? The Case of Max Moundus

• Outcome: Max, once panicked by AI, now works as an AI research engineer at Vanderbilt.

  “My computer science knowledge wasn’t obsolete. It was actually what enabled me to understand how to leverage this technology effectively.” (Max Moundus, 27:20)

12. The Big Picture

• Lee Gaines:

  “This looks like one massive experiment on higher ed that no one consented to...AI isn't going anywhere. Higher education has to adapt...the research is actually happening in real time on an entire generation of students.” (Lee Gaines, 27:54)

  • The stakes: If higher ed adapts well, students will thrive; if not, critical thinking and the value of a degree may erode.

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “I was basically having perpetual panic attacks and catastrophizing the situation.”
  — Max Moundus (03:41)
• “Much to my surprise, ChatGPT actually did the lowest in one of my sections.”
  — Dan Arena (05:39)
• “Coding jobs in computer science...have started to disappear...applications...went down by a third last year.”
  — Tanya Tetlow (07:55)
• “The biggest concern...was...hindering critical thinking...here's another outlet for you to not critically think.”
  — Aisha Tarana (20:41)
• “That trust relationship...has really broken down.”
  — Dan Cryer (24:10)
• “My computer science knowledge wasn’t obsolete. It was actually what enabled me to understand how to leverage this technology effectively.”
  — Max Moundus (27:20)
• “This looks like one massive experiment on higher ed that no one consented to.”
  — Lee Gaines (27:54)
• “Where we seed our judgment and responsibilities to technology without constant monitoring...we have violated our own duties and responsibilities.”
  — Tanya Tetlow (25:35)

Important Timestamps

• 00:00–02:05: Set-up and context for AI's entrance into higher ed
• 03:18–04:03: Student panic and anxiety about ChatGPT's implications (Max Moundus)
• 05:08–06:13: ChatGPT takes computer science finals (Dan Arena experiment)
• 07:55–08:47: Administrative concerns about jobs, majors, and curriculum (Tetlow)
• 09:39–10:17: Survey data: 85% of students use AI for coursework
• 13:02–14:41: How Professor Clement encourages responsible AI use and course innovation
• 17:10–18:29: Professor Cryer: Ethical and educational pitfalls of AI as shortcut
• 19:40–20:12: MIT study—using AI appears to reduce neural engagement
• 22:23–24:10: Crisis of trust and the limitations of AI detection
• 25:35: Tanya Tetlow on universities’ obligations and proper AI use
• 27:20–27:54: Max Moundus’ journey from panic to AI research engineer
• 27:54–28:51: Stakes for society and college education in the AI era

Takeaways

• AI is transforming higher education in unpredictable ways.
• Students and educators are improvising, often without clear rules or guidance.
• Some see AI as a means to supercharge learning; others warn it may erode essential critical thinking skills and trust.
• The future of higher education will be determined by how well institutions strike a balance: leveraging AI's potential while preserving academic integrity and human capability.
• As Lee Gaines concludes: “The stakes really couldn’t be higher.” (28:49)

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of learning, the ethics of technology, and how today's students and teachers are navigating the AI age—largely in real time, and sometimes flying blind.