Aisha Rascoe (2:30)

So I mean, 2023, that's not long ago. I mean, it's, it's kind of hard to wrap your head around, like how it's become Such a big deal in such a short amount of time.

Lee Gaines (2:44)

Yeah, I know it's crazy how much it's already changed the world and the economy, but, you know, this technology is a huge deal. People have compared it to the invention of the Internet, or even as big a change as the Industri revolution. So, Anyway, back in 2023, there's this student, Max Moundus. He's a senior at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee, and he's a computer science major. So after ChatGPT was released, Moundus starts freaking out about the power of this new invention, generative AI.

Max Moundus (3:18)

I couldn't focus because I was experimenting with ChatGPT and a lot of these tools, and I could watch them generate code in any coding language at the time and generate them extremely quickly, like nearly instantaneously.

Lee Gaines (3:32)

Moundus says the AI generated code wasn't perfect, but neither was the code he could write at the time. And he knew this technology was only going to get better.

Max Moundus (3:41)

And I started spiraling and I was just thinking, you know, did everything I just learned over the past four years, is that now obsolete? You know, is the four years of my time plus the tuition that I paid, you know, should I put that towards something else? And I was. I was basically having perpetual panic attacks and catastrophizing the situation.

Aisha Rascoe (4:03)

Yeah, I mean, it's understandable, right? Like, how that could be really stressful. It does seem like computer science and like coding. That might not be the best major right now.

Lee Gaines (4:17)

Yeah, totally. And Moundus was feeling that so much, and he was so stressed out, actually, that he sought advice from one of his professors.

Max Moundus (4:27)

I remember approaching him and kind of trying to express to him that I just felt sort of defeated by this.

Lee Gaines (4:34)

The professor he talked to at Vanderbilt was Dan Arena. Arena told me a lot of his students were deeply worried about AI and what it would mean for their careers.

Dan Arena (4:43)

Most of my students were getting ready to enter the job market, so a lot of them were starting to panic because they're like, well, this is all new technology. We never learned anything about this while we were in undergrad. Now we're going out there. Now, do we have to worry about our jobs? Are we going to still get jobs? And at that time, I felt like my role specifically was to try to say, like, let's just try to look at this accurately and let's really see what's happening.

Lee Gaines (5:08)

So Arina gets this kind of quirky idea. He decides he's going to give the same final exam he's giving students to ChatGPT. So this way Irina could get a sense of whether the chatbot could actually replace an entry level worker in the computer science field.

Dan Arena (5:25)

So I created a fictitious student named Glenn Peter Thompson, which was GPT. Right, the initials.

Aisha Rascoe (5:33)

Okay, so how did Glen Peter Thompson do?

Lee Gaines (5:37)

Pretty bad, actually.

Dan Arena (5:39)

Much to my surprise, Chachi PT had, like, actually did the lowest in one of my sections. And then the other two sections, it did marginally better, but it was still well below the mean. So I shared that with my students, and I just said, like, hey, this is where we're at right now. You are, you are significantly more prepared than ChatGPT is to take on a role in computer science and industry.

Aisha Rascoe (6:01)

Well, you know, that's a big thing. Like, I'm sure that must have made the students feel really good that right now the computers haven't replaced them.

Lee Gaines (6:13)

Oh, 100%. Yeah, that's what Irina told me. He said that this really calmed down his students, except that that was almost three years ago. Right. And ChatGPT has improved since then. So this past spring, Irina told me that he repeated his experiment with ChatGPT.

Dan Arena (6:32)

And this time I pretend I made up a name, which was Gwen Piper Thompson. I pretended that this was Glenn's younger sister, now at Vanderbilt.

Lee Gaines (6:39)

And this time around, ChatGPT or Gwen scored in the low 80s. So better, but still not great. And Irina says his students were again relieved. But Aisha, even in just a couple years, ChatGPT improved a lot on that test. So it's pretty easy to see where things are headed. And I asked Arina what happens when ChatGPT can ace the exam.

Dan Arena (7:05)

So at the point that it really does catch up to what my students need to be able to do, then I need to go back to the drawing board, and I need to say, like, okay, well, how can I then incorporate this technology to make them even deeper, better, and more productive than they were previously without this technology?

Lee Gaines (7:25)

So Irina sounds pretty calm about this, Right? But I wouldn't say he represents everyone in academia.

Aisha Rascoe (7:33)

So arena's kind of an outlier here.

Lee Gaines (7:37)

Well, I definitely think it's safe to say that concerns about how AI is going to impact the job market are pretty valid. I talked to Tanya Tetlow about this. She's the president of Fordham University, and she's very concerned about how AI will impact jobs for computer science majors.

Tanya Tetlow (7:55)

We worry very much about the job market they will inherit quite soon. Coding jobs in computer science, for example, have started to disappear. And our applications for computer science majors went down by a third last year. And that hit will start to also apply to things like accountants or junior lawyers in law firms, that the tasks that are the most technical are quickly being supplanted by technology.

Aisha Rascoe (8:23)

I mean, if the job market is changing this fast, how can or how should universities adapt?

Lee Gaines (8:34)

Well, Tetlow told me she believes universities need to make sure students get skills AI can't replicate, like critical thinking, emotional intelligence, and ethical judgment.

Tanya Tetlow (8:47)

What employers will increasingly need from them is that proficiency in technology, for sure, but also the most human of skills that won't get replaced by machines.

Aisha Rascoe (8:59)

Okay, but is she saying that there will still be a role for computer science majors as long as they have these skills?

Lee Gaines (9:08)

Yes, definitely. So Tetlo thinks there's still going to be a demand for people with these technical skills, but that alone won't be enough. They'll need to have these other skills, too. So in other words, they need to understand what the AI is doing and work with humans to oversee it.

Aisha Rascoe (9:26)

So we've heard from the professors and the administrators, but what about the students? Do you have a sense of how many college students in general are using AI?

Lee Gaines (9:39)

I mean, the short answer is a lot. There was this recent survey done of about 1000 undergrads. It was conducted by Inside Higher Ed and Generation Lab. They found that a huge amount of students, 85%, said they used generative AI for coursework in the past year.

Aisha Rascoe (9:56)

Okay, 85%. I mean, that's a huge majority of students.

Lee Gaines (10:01)

Yeah, it is. And about half of those surveyed said they used it in ways that you could argue support their learning, like brainstorming ideas, having AI ask them questions like a tutor would, and using it to study for tests. Also, 42% said they're using it like an advanced search engine. Now, a smaller percentage, about a quarter of students said they used it to complete their assignments, with 19% saying they had used AI to write full essays for them.

Aisha Rascoe (10:33)

Oh, I mean, that's. That's not good. That's not good because. What. So that's like a quarter of students? Almost a quarter of students. So close to 20%. They basically cheating, right? They're basically cheating.

Lee Gaines (10:50)

Yeah. I think a lot of people would call it that. I think that some of these students might describe it as working smarter rather than harder, but.

Aisha Rascoe (10:58)

Yeah.

BetterHelp/Mattress Firm/Broadcast Sponsor (10:59)

Yeah.

Aisha Rascoe (11:00)

Well, I mean, look, you. Yes. You know, there are. There are ways to work smarter, not harder. You could, like, take some money out to register, but it's still stealing. You know what I'm saying?

Lee Gaines (11:11)

Oh, yeah. I think professors would agree with that. And I talked to this recent college grad. Aisha Tarana about this. Tarana interviewed 10 students at her school, the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, for a research project. And she asked these students how they were using AI.

Aisha Tarana (11:31)

One of the interviewees said something that kind of stuck out to me. She had said something along the lines of it makes it easier to do better. And that was kind of the, like, theme that a lot of people were saying to me was that it just makes it easier to be better and do better and get to my goals faster. And I was like, that's interesting.

Aisha Rascoe (11:52)

I mean, I can see that. And I, you know, I have friends and stuff who talk about using AI in this way. Like, overall, for the students, it sounds like a mixed bag. Like, you have some students that are using AI as a tool, as a, as a study buddy, as an editor, as a brainstorming partner, and then some people who are using it as a kind of an end in of itself. Right, like, so using it to do all of the work.

Lee Gaines (12:22)

Yeah, that's right.

Aisha Rascoe (12:24)

And so, I mean, how are professors responding to this?

Lee Gaines (12:29)

It's complicated. And it seems like the academic response really depends on who you talk to. So three years into the generative AI revolution, there is no broad consensus. I've spoken to professors that are banning it outright in their classes and others who are embracing it.

Aisha Rascoe (12:49)

Okay, so tell me about some of these, you know, perspectives that you're hearing.

Lee Gaines (12:54)

Yeah. Let's start with Leslie Clement. She's a professor at Johnson C. Smith University, a historically black university in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Leslie Clement (13:02)

It's absolutely changed how I teach. It's expanded how I think and how I learn.

Lee Gaines (13:09)

Clement teaches English, Spanish, and African studies. She told me her goal has always been to foster critical, ethical, and inclusive thinking in her students. And at first she was skeptical about AI, but now she says it's her mission to ensure her students apply those same skills to how they use AI.

Leslie Clement (13:30)

We encourage them to use it because we know they're going to use it, but to use it in a responsible way.

Aisha Rascoe (13:36)

So what does that look like, like, in practice?

Lee Gaines (13:39)

So Clement says she allows her students to use AI to create outlines for papers and to find sources for their research. She says she also teaches her students to fact check what AI gives them because it does make mistakes. And if students use AI to refine or edit their papers, she asks them to compare the original draft to the AI version and reflect on the changes it makes made.

Aisha Rascoe (14:04)

That's really interesting. So it's like she's accepting that the AI exists, but she's also making them kind of interrogate the use of it and what they are getting from using it.

Lee Gaines (14:18)

Yeah. Again, she's trying to foster those critical thinking skills alongside the AI. And Clement also co created a new course with two other professors called AI and the African Diaspora. Clement says they also introduce students to a large language model called Latimer AI, which I had actually never heard of before.

Leslie Clement (14:41)

So it's kind of considered the black ChatGPT. So it's supposed to provide more information about black history Black experiences than ChatGPT does.

Aisha Rascoe (14:54)

So it sounds like Leslie Clement is like really going all in. Like she's embracing the possibilities of AI and using it to kind of enhance her curriculum and her teaching. But I'm guessing there are a lot of professors who may not be on the same page as her.

Lee Gaines (15:13)

You would definitely be correct. And I talked to someone who isn't who thinks AI may actually cause serious.

Dan Cryer (15:21)

Harm if we're not careful. The presence of AI can poison our relationships with our students.

Aisha Rascoe (15:29)

That's coming up. Stay with us.

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Aisha Rascoe (16:49)

Sunday Story, talking to journalist Lee Gaines about AI and higher ed. So Lee, you told me about someone who is skeptical about the benefits of AI. So who was that?

Lee Gaines (17:02)

Yeah. Now I want to introduce you to Dan Cryer. He's an English professor at Johnson Community College in Kansas.

Dan Cryer (17:10)

I think that on a scale of 0 to 10, 10 being AI tools are extremely beneficial to humanities education and 0 being, not only are they not beneficial, but they're actively harmful. I'm probably in like a 1 or a 2.

Lee Gaines (17:26)

So Cryer's biggest concern is that AI tools are going to act as a shortcut that cheats students out of the education they signed up for. He told me that part of the problem is students sometimes think the goal of education is the final paper or the grade or the degree.

Dan Cryer (17:44)

I try to convince students that the product is not where it's at. Like, we don't need more research papers written by college students. What we need is students to go through the process of writing research papers so that they can become better thinkers, so that they can put together a cogent argument, so they can differentiate between a good source and a bad source, so they can write a strong paragraph.

Aisha Rascoe (18:08)

Yeah, those critical thinking skills that we talked about earlier.

Lee Gaines (18:14)

Exactly. And Cryer thinks that by using AI, students are robbing themselves of the benefits of that process. He says it's like if we went to the gym and we thought that the point was for the weights to move up and down rather than to build muscle.

Leslie Clement (18:29)

Mm.

Aisha Rascoe (18:30)

I mean, that analogy really makes sense to me because you have to, like, practice actually doing the uncomfortable thing of sitting down and looking at a blank screen and making something come out of nothing.

Lee Gaines (18:45)

Totally. And, I mean, I think you and I really understand that as journalists. Like, it took a lot of work to get to a point where we feel confident with our writing. In Cryer's mind, using AI is basically like bringing a forklift to the gym. And to add to that, many colleges, including Crier's, often provide AI tools like Microsoft's Copilot to students for free. And Crier thinks this puts students in a tough spot because it becomes super easy for them to use it to do all their work for them.

Dan Cryer (19:16)

And then it further becomes their responsibility to not cross that line, even as the tool is kind of beckoning them over it.

Aisha Rascoe (19:24)

I mean, yeah, that would definitely be pretty irresistible, but do we know what the downstream impacts of that are like? Is there research that actually shows that AI harms critical thinking skills?

Lee Gaines (19:40)

Well, I would say it's still too early to know what the long term impacts might be, but there is some evidence that increased reliance on AI tools does impact critical thinking skills. So there's a study from MIT that recorded the brain activity of people using AI to write essays, while another group used Google Search and a third group used nothing but their own brains. And they found that of the three groups, the people who used AI had lower neural connectivity and engagement.

Aisha Rascoe (20:12)

I mean, that don't sound good or that that doesn't sound like a good sign for what AI may be doing to our BR brains.

Lee Gaines (20:22)

Yeah, it really doesn't. And it's something that students are also concerned about. So remember Aisha tarana who interviewed 10 students for a research project at the University of Minnesota?

Aisha Rascoe (20:34)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lee Gaines (20:35)

Well, she told me this fear of AI came up a lot during her interviews.

Aisha Tarana (20:41)

The biggest concern that I found was the conversation around it hindering critical thinking because we also live in a very, like, technology surrounding world. Like, we're constantly on Instagram, Snapchat, or like TikTok or some form of social media. There's always noise in our brains that sometimes, like, you don't have room to think. I feel like sometimes. So even when you want to critically think, well, here's another outlet for you to not critically think.

BetterHelp/Mattress Firm/Broadcast Sponsor (21:10)

Boom.

Aisha Tarana (21:11)

It's convenient.

Lee Gaines (21:13)

And now Tarana agrees with Dan Cryer in Kansas. She doesn't think AI has much value for higher education and in fact thinks it poses more potential harm than benefit.

Aisha Rascoe (21:25)

And how are professors dealing with students who are using AI tools to do their work for them?

Lee Gaines (21:33)

It's a huge issue, and from my reporting, I would say that it's creating a real crisis of trust in classrooms. So part of the problem is the technology that's supposed to help professors catch AI use, known as AI detection tools, are unreliable. They sometimes label work written by humans as being AI generated and vice versa. Also, there are now tools people can use to humanize their writing to bypass AI detection software. It's a mess, honestly. But to be clear, some students are using AI in ways that a lot of people would probably describe as unethical. So just a quick search on TikTok and I found a lot of examples of people using AI or talking about using AI to do all the work for them and other people giving advice for how to do that.

Max Moundus (22:26)

I'm a senior at Stanford, and every.

Lee Gaines (22:28)

Single one of my essays has been written by AI.

Aisha Rascoe (22:30)

Friendly reminder that colleges have literally no.

Lee Gaines (22:33)

Way of knowing if you used AI.

Max Moundus (22:34)

To write your college essays. If you're not using AI in college, you're cooked. Yes, it doesn't matter. You could be a 4.0 GPA student or a 1.6 GPA student. All my smart friends use it.

Lee Gaines (22:45)

All my friends who aren't smart use it too.

Aisha Rascoe (22:47)

So you're talking about the cheaters.

Lee Gaines (22:50)

Yeah, that is who I'm talking about. And here's Leslie Clement again, the professor at Johnson C. Smith University in North Carolina.

Leslie Clement (22:59)

We have students who continue to turn in full papers that they just put in the criteria for the paper and ChatGPT and they give us those exact papers.

Lee Gaines (23:08)

So to deal with this, Clement is trying to change how she teaches. She assigns fewer papers and more in class, collaborative projects. She also assigns way less at home reading.

Leslie Clement (23:19)

Now I have students read in class because I know they're just going to go and ask for a summary. So we actually read, you know, different excerpts, and then maybe we'll discuss it in class, and then we come up with ideas together.

Aisha Rascoe (23:35)

This is really like requiring, like, a different way of teaching, right?

Lee Gaines (23:40)

100%. Dan Cryer, the community college professor, has also changed the way he teaches. In response to AI, he told me he's drastically reduced the amount of online teaching he does, and he has students write in class more often now. He says that this is emblematic of a bigger issue. AI has created more work for educators, and part of that work is not letting suspicions around AI use poison relationships with students.

Dan Cryer (24:10)

If you are always thinking of your students work from the point of policing them and keeping them from using these tools, then that trust relationship that is so key between students and teachers has really broken down.

Aisha Rascoe (24:28)

So it seems like kind of stepping back for a moment, like there are all of these seemingly valid criticisms of this technology and how policing of this technology could erode the trust between professors and students and really hurt the relationship. But then, on the other hand, we also heard from Tanya Tetlow, the president of Fordham University, and she said earlier that universities are facing a real urgency here because the job market is changing and AI is going to be needed to deal with the economy of tomorrow. So how do universities deal with all of those contradictions?

Lee Gaines (25:17)

That is like the billion dollar question. But I will say that Tetlo says doing nothing isn't an option. And she also doesn't think universities should just embrace AI uncritically. She says higher ed's role is to model the difference between responsible and irresponsible use.

Tanya Tetlow (25:35)

I think that where we use AI as a tool to do important and good work better, it is responsible. Where we seed our judgment and responsibilities to technology without constant monitoring and checking of its accuracy, we have violated our own duties and responsibilities. But we need to have it as a tool always within our control, not to give over our most important functions to a soulless machine that has no conscience.

Lee Gaines (26:17)

So Tetlo is saying AI as a tool under human control, responsible AI as a replacement for human judgment, irresponsible but as we've heard, there's disagreement within higher ed about whether professors should embrace or reject this technology.

Aisha Rascoe (26:35)

So where does this leave students?

Lee Gaines (26:37)

Well, I want to talk about what happened to Max Moundes. He's the computer science major from Vanderbilt who was terrified by ChatGPT when it was first released.

BetterHelp/Mattress Firm/Broadcast Sponsor (26:47)

So.

Aisha Rascoe (26:47)

Yeah, where is he now?

Lee Gaines (26:49)

He's actually working as an AI research engineer for Vanderbilt University. So he's doing AI research and building AI tools for the university.

Aisha Rascoe (27:00)

Okay, so he. So he basically, like, became one with the machines or. I mean, he embraced the technology that was worrying him.

Lee Gaines (27:11)

I love that. Become one with this.

Aisha Rascoe (27:13)

Become one with the machine.

Lee Gaines (27:15)

100%. I would say he just leaned right into it.

Max Moundus (27:20)

I had this moment where everything just clicked and I realized that my ability to see the capability of this technology and the different ways that it could augment traditional work, that perspective itself was valuable and that my computer science knowledge wasn't obsolete. It was actually what enabled me to understand how to leverage this technology effectively.

Aisha Rascoe (27:45)

I guess my last question to you then is, with all of these different viewpoints, where does that leave us as a society?

Lee Gaines (27:54)

I mean, to me, this looks like one massive experiment on higher ed that no one consented to. You know, ChatGPT didn't come with a guidebook when it was released. It was just put into the world, and now it's everyone's challenge to deal with. And the reality is AI isn't going anywhere. Higher education has to adapt to it, but we really don't understand the full risks or the benefits to students yet. And that research is actually happening in real time on an entire generation of students. And if higher ed gets this right, maybe universities and colleges can supercharge learning using AI and train students for jobs where they'll be overseeing the use of this technology. And if we get it wrong, maybe students won't develop critical thinking skills and they'll be in this unforgiving job market eroded by AI. Maybe higher ed as a whole will be devalued. The stakes really couldn't be higher.

Aisha Rascoe (28:51)

This really does seem like it will be a key question for our time. Lee, thank you so much for all of this reporting.

Lee Gaines (29:02)

Thank you so much, Aisha, for having me.

Aisha Rascoe (29:07)

That was education reporter Lee Gaines. This reporting was supported by a grant from the Tarbell center for AI Journalism. And if you want to hear more about AI in education, our friends over at the TED Radio Hour podcast have a series called Are the Kids all right? That looks at the use of AI in elementary, elementary school classrooms. This episode of the Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo. The editor was Jenny Schmidt. It was engineered by Robert Rodriguez. Fact checking by Sassil Davis Vasquez. The rest of the Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Lianna Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our Executive Producer. In this episode. You heard social media clips from TikTok users at Advice with Shiv at Study, Fetchalex at CollegeGuy2, IvyRoadmap and Studying with Car. I'm Aisha Rascoe. Up first is Back Tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

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