Up First from NPR – "ICE Under Trump" (October 12, 2025)

Episode Overview

This Sunday Story episode of NPR’s Up First, hosted by Ayesha Rascoe, explores the transformation of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) since President Trump’s second term began in January 2025. Against the backdrop of a historic injection of $170 billion for immigration enforcement—$75 billion for ICE alone—reporters and guests dissect how ICE’s role, tactics, and influence have radically shifted. Drawing from the reporting of NPR’s Throughline podcast, the episode presents perspectives from Roger Werner (a founding member of ICE and DHS historian) and Peter Markowitz (immigration attorney and law professor), who examine recent developments, historical context, and the contentious national debate over the agency's power and methods.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Massive Funding Increase and Policy Shifts

• [00:00–01:04] Context Setting: ICE now receives more funding than any other federal law enforcement agency, with record-breaking appropriations intended to facilitate mass deportations.
• [13:23] Peter Markowitz: "The one big beautiful bill is directing more than $175 billion to immigration enforcement... ICE alone is set to get $75 billion. ...That's more than any country in the world spends on its military in a year [except US and China]."
• [15:07] Roger Werner: Emphasizes the responsibility of wisely utilizing taxpayer money and maintaining lawful treatment of detainees.

2. Escalating Enforcement and Public Visibility

• [04:21–06:30] “Shock and Awe” Approach: Tom Homan announces a campaign of mass deportations, supported by the deployment of National Guard and Marines to major cities, with frequent, highly visible raids (hardware store parking lots, bus stops, etc.).
• [05:59] Peter Markowitz: "The deployment of non-immigration agents, National Guard, other military and law enforcement agencies... in a kind of sweeping, heavy-handed, very visible manner. That is something that is unfamiliar to me... or in any time in my lifetime."
• [06:30] ICE is now averaging over 600 arrests per day; Stephen Miller set a goal of 3,000/day—over a million annually.

3. Optics, Social Media, and Global Implications

• [05:06] The ubiquity of ICE videos on social media intensifies public perception—some posted by ICE itself for deterrent effect.
• [06:36] Trump administration has deported immigrants to "notorious" facilities abroad and, in some cases, to countries with which they have no connections, raising concerns among advocates and legal experts.

4. Expedited Removal & Erosion of Due Process

• [09:29–10:36] Peter Markowitz: Details how ICE circumvents court proceedings using "expedited removal"—allowing ICE agents to act as "judge, jury and executioner."
  • Quote [09:51]: "They move to terminate these cases for the purpose of using that alternative mechanism, notwithstanding the fact that... the person is fully compliant with that process."
• [11:23–12:03] Markowitz describes conditions in ICE facilities: "It is indistinguishable from the jails and prisons that I've also routinely visited... There is medical care of the poorest quality. People routinely die... because of inadequate medical care."

5. Deterrence Debate and Human Impact

• [07:36–08:46] Roger Werner and Rund Abdel Fattah discuss the desperation driving migrants and whether deterrence through tough enforcement is effective or justifiable.
• Werner [07:36]: "Imagine walking 50 miles like, like an old lady or a kid..."
• Abdel Fattah [08:14]: "What would compel me to ever put [my child] in that situation? ...Things have gotten so bad..."
• Werner [08:30]: "Is the risk worth the reward?... If you show and say... you're not going to be allowed in... would you sell everything and try? No, you would look for another alternative."

6. Checks, Balances, and Erosion of Oversight

• [17:19–18:37] Peter Markowitz: Expresses concern that internal checks, oversight, and external controls (including the judicial system and Supreme Court) have been dismantled or rendered ineffective.
  • Quote [17:19]: "There are no internal checks going on anymore. ...The immigration courts are being purged... the Supreme Court is no backstop either. ...We are in a really, really, really precarious place as a country."
• [15:59–16:59] Roger Werner presents a cyclical, historical view: immigration enforcement swings back and forth every few decades, reflecting the political mood and public perceptions.
  • Quote [15:59]: "There’s always a pendulum swing, but you do have to have a deterrent... It depends on where you sit on the issue is how you’re going to judge that."

7. Stakeholder Perspectives and Future Risks

• [13:58] Markowitz: Fears a normalization of checkpoints and militarized presence—possibly risking transformation to a police state.
• [18:37–18:50] Werner: Reiterates the dedication of ICE agents to public service.
• [18:50] Markowitz: Warns further escalation is likely: "Tom Homan keeps saying, just wait, just wait. We're just getting started. And I believe him."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom Homan, on the administration’s approach [04:26, paraphrased]:

  "Shock and awe. That is how Tom Homan kicked off the Trump administration’s second term approach to deportations..."

• Peter Markowitz, on unprecedented enforcement [05:59]:

  "The deployment of non-immigration agents... in a kind of sweeping, heavy-handed, very visible manner... is unfamiliar to me... in any time in my lifetime."

• Werner, on the cyclical nature of immigration policy [15:59]:

  "There’s always a pendulum swing... but you do have to have a deterrent."

• Markowitz, on the erosion of checks and balances [17:19]:

  "No internal check... no immigration court backstop, no Supreme Court backstop. We are in a really, really, really precarious place as a country."

• Markowitz, on ICE’s expanded reach [13:58]:

  "We’re at real risk of kind of becoming a police state... increasingly people are going to feel that in a very, very visceral way."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:37 — Intro and guest introductions
• 04:21–06:30 — Kickoff of "shock and awe" mass deportation strategy; National Guard deployment
• 06:30–07:36 — Immigration raids increase; global impacts of deportations
• 07:36–09:02 — Deterrence debate: desperate migration vs. government response
• 09:29–10:36 — Expedited removal; bypassing due process
• 11:23–12:03 — Life in detention: overcrowding and poor conditions
• 13:23–15:01 — Explosive funding growth; scale of enforcement
• 15:59–16:59 — The pendulum of immigration enforcement through history
• 17:19–18:37 — Erosion of internal and external legal checks
• 18:50–18:59 — Warnings of “just getting started” with mass enforcement

Conclusion

This episode delivers a sobering look at the dramatically expanded scope, power, and visibility of ICE under the second Trump administration. The conversation between historian Roger Werner and immigration attorney Peter Markowitz vividly illustrates the resulting tensions: between enforcement and humanitarian concerns, historical precedent and political reality, and the enduring question of how far a democracy should go in pursuit of border security. The policies and funding surge have set the stage for a new era in American immigration enforcement—one that, as the guests make clear, is roiling communities, the courts, and the country’s sense of itself.

For deeper historical context and a fuller narrative, listeners are encouraged to check out the original Throughline episode.