Intel Hearing On Group Chat, Return To Office Mandate, Black Sea Deal

Summary

NPR's Up First: March 26, 2025

Hosts: Michele Martin, Layla Fadel, Ryan Lucas
Episode Topics: Intel Hearing On Group Chat, Return To Office Mandate, Black Sea Deal

---

1. Intel Hearing on Group Chat Security Breach

Overview:
Top national security officials within the Trump administration faced intense scrutiny on Capitol Hill following revelations that sensitive war plans were shared in an unsecured group chat. The group, which included high-ranking officials such as CIA Director John Ratcliffe and Director of Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, also improperly included journalist Jeffrey Goldberg, editor of The Atlantic.

Key Points:

• Security Concerns:
  The use of the Signal messaging app for discussing classified military strategies posed significant security risks. As explained by NPR Justice Correspondent Ryan Lucas, the Pentagon had previously warned against using Signal due to vulnerabilities exploited by Russian hackers:
  “The Pentagon warned actually just last week against using Signal even for unclassified information. The Pentagon said Russian hackers are targeting the app to spy on people of interest.” [03:49]

• Government Response:
  During the hearing, CIA Director Ratcliffe acknowledged his participation in the chat but maintained that no classified information was shared:
  "We pretty much looked into it. It's pretty simple, to be honest. It's not. It's just something that can happen." [02:23]
  Tulsi Gabbard initially denied her involvement but later conceded her participation. Both officials deferred the classification determination to Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, who has publicly stated that no war plans were texted:
  "Nobody was texting war plans." [04:39]

• Legislative Reaction:
  Democrats, led by the top members in the House and Senate, are demanding a thorough investigation despite Republicans controlling both chambers. Senate Majority Leader John Thune expressed the need to understand what transpired:
  "They need to figure out what happened." [05:02]

• Conflict of Interest:
  Notably, Kathryn Marr highlighted an internal conflict of interest as NPR's CEO, Kathryn Marr, chairs the board of the Signal Foundation, adding complexity to the reporting on this issue.

Conclusion:
The security breach has sparked bipartisan concern, although actionable steps remain unclear. Further testimonies from intelligence officials are anticipated as Congress seeks accountability and enhanced security measures.

---

2. Federal Employees Struggle with Return to Office Mandate

Overview:
In adherence to President Trump's executive order terminating all remote work, federal employees are being compelled to return to physical office spaces. However, numerous workers are encountering significant logistical challenges, including inadequate office infrastructure and unsuitable work environments.

Key Points:

• Absurd Office Assignments:
  A Department of Agriculture employee reported being instructed to work from a storage unit, revealing the disarray in office preparations:
  "This employee doesn't expect to actually be working out of the storage unit... They say using it feels like an indirect way of pressuring them to quit." [06:12]

• Infrastructure Shortcomings:
  Federal offices are reportedly unprepared for the influx of employees, facing shortages of essential supplies like toilet paper and desks, as well as technical issues such as slow internet connections:
  "They are running out of toilet paper and soap in the bathrooms. There aren't enough desks or computer monitors." [07:06]

• Health Concerns:
  At the FDA's main office in Maryland, employees are hesitant to drink the building's water due to previous Legionella bacteria findings, despite reassurances from the agency:
  "Some say because they haven't made new testing results available, they just don't want to risk it." [06:14]

• Impact on Productivity and Costs:
  Remote work had been a cost-saving measure for the government, with telework saving taxpayers over $230 million in 2020 alone. The abrupt reversal threatens to increase expenses and reduce operational efficiency:
  "Remote work has enabled them to be more efficient, to be more productive, and that getting rid of it feels like an indirect way of pressuring them to quit." [08:03]

• Employee Sentiment:
  Many federal workers view the mandate as counterproductive, citing increased costs and diminished productivity:
  "It's actually going to cost the government money." [09:04]

Conclusion:
The return to office mandate is met with widespread frustration among federal employees due to inadequate preparations and the undermining of previously successful remote work arrangements. This policy shift may lead to reduced morale and increased operational costs for government agencies.

---

3. U.S. Brokered Black Sea Deal Between Russia and Ukraine

Overview:
After three days of negotiations in Saudi Arabia, the White House announced tentative progress towards a peace agreement between Russia and Ukraine, focusing on maritime passage through the Black Sea. However, the deal's implementation remains uncertain due to Moscow's demands for extensive sanctions relief.

Key Points:

• Deal Provisions:
  The agreement aims to cease hostilities in the Black Sea and resume free commercial shipping. However, the start date for the ceasefire and the fulfillment of conditions remain unclear:
  "It's not clear when the partial ceasefire would begin or if conditions to put the deal in place could be met." [10:19]

• Conditions for Sanctions Relief:
  Russia demands the lifting of several US-imposed sanctions as a prerequisite for the deal, including re-integrating Russia's state agricultural bank into the international payment system and easing maritime trade restrictions:
  "The Kremlin issued a statement in which it made clear the deal would only come into force once the US had lifted all sorts of sanctions..." [10:21]

• US Position and Challenges:
  John Ratcliffe indicated that the U.S. is evaluating Russia's conditions, which number around five or six:
  "There are about five or six conditions. We're looking at all of them." [11:10]
  However, Kathryn Marr pointed out that unilateral sanctions relief by the U.S. is unfeasible without European cooperation, which remains skeptical of Moscow's intentions:
  "The US can't really remove all these barriers without European allies agreeing to do much the same." [11:10]

• Ukrainian Concerns:
  Ukraine opposes U.S. actions that may unilaterally ease sanctions on Russia, fearing it would undermine their position in the conflict and economic stability:
  "Ukraine objects to what it sees as unilateral sanctions relief for Russia by the US." [11:16]

• Ongoing Conflict:
  Despite the tentative agreement, fighting persists in Ukraine, with both sides accusing each other of violating ceasefire terms:
  "Both Moscow and Kyiv have accused one another of violating that energy infrastructure ceasefire." [11:53]

Conclusion:
The brokered Black Sea deal represents a cautious step towards de-escalation, but significant obstacles remain. Russia's stringent demands for sanctions relief complicate the agreement's viability, and without broader international support, the path to lasting peace remains fraught with uncertainty.

---

Additional Coverage

China's Trading City and Tariffs Impact:
Steve Inskeep provided a glimpse into a bustling Chinese trading hub, highlighting how global tariffs are influencing international trade dynamics. This segment explored the responses of local businesses to increased tariffs on goods exported to the United States, emphasizing the intricate balance between global commerce and protectionist policies.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Layla Fadel:
  “It's hard for me to believe that targets and timing and weapons would not have been classified.” [04:22]

• John Ratcliffe:
  “They will be looking at them and we're thinking about all of them right now. There are about five or six conditions.” [11:10]

---

Production Credits:
Edited by Anna Eunough, Brett Neely, Rylan Barton, Arizu Rizwani, and Mohamed El Bardisi. Produced by Ziad Butch, Nia Dumas, and Christopher Thomas, with engineering support from Nisha Hyness and technical direction by Carly Strange.

---

Subscribe and Support:
Stay informed by subscribing to Up First and consider supporting your local NPR station at donate.npr.org. Unlock sponsor-free listening by subscribing to Up First+ at plus.npr.org/upfirst.

Transcript

[Michele Martin]

Trump's intelligence officials got a grilling on Capitol Hill over sensitive war plans shared in a group chat.

[Layla Fadel]

It's hard for me to believe that targets and timing and weapons would not have been classified.

[Ryan Lucas]

Will Democrats get the investigation they want?

[Michele Martin]

I'm Michele Martin here with Layla Fadel, and this is up first from NPR News.

[Ryan Lucas]

Federal workers are being ordered back to the office, but when they get there, they're finding there aren't enough chairs, desks or toilet paper. How did one employee get told to report to work at a storage unit?

[Michele Martin]

And the US Brokered a deal between Russia and Ukraine to allow safe passage through the Black Sea, but Moscow wants sanctions relief first.

[John Ratcliffe]

There are about five or six conditions. We're looking at all of them.

[Michele Martin]

Stay with us. We'll give you the news you need to start your day.

[Shannon Bond]

This message comes from Saatva, the first company to sell luxury mattresses online without the hassle or expense of traditional mattress stores. So Saatva customers always paid about 50% less than retail. Visit swatva.com NPR today, where NPR listeners save an additional $200. This message comes from BetterHelp. Therapy can be expensive, but at BetterHelp, they believe therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury, which is why they offer quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it, and now it's within reach. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com NPR this message comes from.

[Steve Inskeep]

PEMCO Mutual Insurance Company. You know that moment when things take an unexpected turn and you get that sudden sinking feeling that maybe it could have been avoided? Pemco Insurance wants to help you avoid that feeling by sharing prevention tips that empower you to prevent some of life's preventable pitfalls. Because Pemco's commitment to their customers goes beyond the moment of acclaim. It's about being with their customers every day. [e-mail] Prevention the Trump administration is in.

[Michele Martin]

Damage control mode after the revelation this week that top national security officials shared secret war plans in a group chat that included a journalist. President Trump was asked about it yesterday.

[John Ratcliffe]

We pretty much looked into it. It's pretty simple, to be honest. It's not. It's just something that can happen.

[Ryan Lucas]

CIA Director John Ratcliffe and Director Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard were both part of that group chat. And they appeared before Senate lawmakers yesterday for a previously scheduled hearing where they faced tough questions about how this security breach could have happened.

[Michele Martin]

NPR justice correspondent Ryan Lucas is covering this, and he's with us now with more. Good morning, Ryan.

[Charles Mainz]

Good morning.

[Michele Martin]

So Democrats really pushed Gabbard and Ratcliffe on this group chat revelation. Just remind us, what are the security concerns here?

[Charles Mainz]

Well, there are a couple of issues here. First off, this group chat reportedly involved sensitive strategy discussions among top top U.S. officials, including the vice president. And it also reportedly involved discussions about targeting, about weapons and attack sequencing of US Military strikes in Yemen before those airstrikes happened. These discussions weren't on a secure U.S. government communication system. They instead were in a group chat set up by national Security Adviser Mike Waltz on the Signal messaging app, which is commercially available, widely used by all sorts of folks. Our colleague Tom Bowman is reporting that the Pentagon warned actually just last week against using Signal even for unclassified information. The Pentagon said Russian hackers are targeting the app to spy on people of interest. So that's issue number one. Issue number two here is that a journalist, the editor of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, was included in this group chat, and that, of course, is a serious security breach.

[Michele Martin]

So what did the director of national intelligence and the CIA director have to say about this yesterday when they appeared before lawmakers?

[Charles Mainz]

Well, initially, Tulsi Gabbard wouldn't even acknowledge that she was in the chat. For his part, though, CIA Director John Ratcliffe didn't try to play that game. He said straight out he was part of this chat. But he did say US Officials are permitted to use Signal to communicate and coordinate for government work purposes. He and Gabbard said there was no classified information shared in this chat. The White House has said the same thing. But that line received a lot of skepticism from lawmakers on the panel, and that includes Maine independent Angus King.

[Layla Fadel]

If that's the case, please release that whole tech stream so that the public can have a view of what actually transpired on this discussion. It's hard for me to believe that targets and timing and weapons would not have been classified.

[Charles Mainz]

Now, Ratcliffe and Gabbard both said at one point that the information from an intelligence perspective wasn't classified. But then when it comes to specific military information about the airstrikes, they said the secretary of defense has the authority to determine what's classified and what's not on that. So pointing to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth for answers on those questions. Hegseth was not at this hearing yesterday, but he has said publicly that nobody was texting war plans.

[Michele Martin]

So what happens next with this?

[Charles Mainz]

Well, the same intelligence officials are testifying before House lawmakers today, they'll no doubt face more questions. But stepping back a bit, the top Democrat in the House and Senate are both calling for an investigation. Democrats, of course, don't have a lot of power. They're in the minority. Republicans control both houses of Congress. Some GOP senators have expressed concern about this security breach and how this all went down. That includes the Senate majority leader, John Thune. He told reporters yesterday that they need to figure out what happened. So there may be more to come on this.

[Michele Martin]

So let me just mention here that Kathryn Marr, who is the CEO of npr, chairs the board of the nonprofit Signal Foundation. And that is NPR's Ryan Lucas. Ryan, thank you.

[Charles Mainz]

Thank you.

[Michele Martin]

Earlier this month, a Department of Agriculture employee who works remotely was told they'd soon have to start reporting to an office.

[Ryan Lucas]

The employee was given a list of possible locations, including one described as a storage unit.

[Michele Martin]

NPR Shannon Bond spoke to that worker and other federal employees who have been ordered back to the office and who say they are dealing with challenging conditions. And she's with us now. Good morning, Shannon.

[Jenna McLaughlin]

Good morning, Michelle.

[Michele Martin]

So, Shannon, a storage unit? What's going on there?

[Jenna McLaughlin]

Yeah, this USDA worker was pretty confused by this, so they actually drove to the address on this list. Sure enough, it was a storage facility. And when the worker asked the owner of the facility why it might be showing up on a list of federal office spaces, they said the owner laughed and said, yes, you know, the federal government does rent a unit here. It's used to store a boat. Now, to be clear, this employee doesn't expect to actually be working out of the storage unit like other federal employees I spoke with. They didn't want us to use their name because they fear retaliation from the Trump administration for speaking out. I reached out to the usda. They told me they are identifying issues and addressing them quickly. But, Michelle, this is just one example of the kind of confusion, even absurdity, some federal workers are encountering around this order. Back into offices.

[Michele Martin]

What are some of the other stories, stories that you've heard?

[Jenna McLaughlin]

Yeah, my colleague Jenna McLaughlin and I talked to employees at a dozen agencies who are being ordered back into the office to comply with President Trump's executive order terminating all remote work. And what they told us is in many cases, these offices just are not equipped for an influx of people. So they're running out of toilet paper and soap in the bathrooms. There aren't enough desks or computer monitors. Internet connections and wi fi service can be slow or unavailable. You know, I even spoke to people at the FDA who went back to the main office in Maryland last week. They're nervous to drink the water in the building because last year testing found Legionella bacteria in some FDA buildings that causes Legionnaires disease. Now, the agency notified employees coming back that it is safe to drink the water, but some say because they haven't made new testing results available, they just don't want to risk it. The FDA told me it's keeping employees up to date on their working conditions.

[Michele Martin]

Can you give us a sense of how many people were teleworking or working remotely at least part of the time until now?

[Jenna McLaughlin]

Well, about 10% of federal employees were fully remote, according to a federal government report last year. That's around 288,000 people. And many more had the ability to work from home sometimes. And of course, Michelle, teleworking increased a lot during the pandemic. But actually, many federal agencies had been encouraging telework going back decades as a way of saving on costs around like, you know, real estate, utilities, office space. The Office of Personnel Management found telework saved taxpayers more than $230 million in 20. And the government was encouraging telework during the first Trump administration as well. You know, many of the employees that I spoke with said this is not about they don't want to go back into the office, that it's inconvenient or that they're being lazy. They say that for them, remote work has enabled them to be more efficient, to be more productive, and that getting rid of it feels like an indirect way of pressuring them to quit. And they say it just doesn't make a lot of sense, bringing people back into offices that can't accommodate them. It's actually going to cost the government money.

[Michele Martin]

Seems like some of these goals are at cross purposes. That is NPR's Shannon Bond. Shannon, thank you.

[Jenna McLaughlin]

Thanks so much.

[Michele Martin]

After three days of negotiations in Saudi Arabia, the White House announced new progress toward its goal of a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine.

[Ryan Lucas]

In the latest, both have tentatively agreed to stop fighting in the Black Sea and allow free commercial shipping through that region to resume.

[Michele Martin]

Joining us to fill in the details is NPR's Charles Mainz in Moscow. Charles, welcome.

[Kathryn Marr]

Morning, Michelle.

[Michele Martin]

So what does this deal do, at least according to the White House?

[Kathryn Marr]

Well, I think it's important to look at it in a broader context. You know, Trump returned office in January saying he wanted an end to the war in Ukraine. His efforts to craft a full ceasefire didn't work out. So the White House has really shifted tactics. It's pursuing smaller, limited ceasefires that work towards a wider peace. So last week it was. That deal to end attacks on energy infrastructure, at least in theory, hasn't quite held. And now the latest deal involves maritime passage through the Black Sea. Kyiv and Moscow both promised to ensure safe passage to commercial vessels. The catch, and it's a big one, is it's not clear when the partial ceasefire would begin or if conditions to put the deal in place could be met.

[Michele Martin]

What would those conditions be?

[Kathryn Marr]

Well, they mostly come from the Russian side. The Kremlin issued a statement in which it made clear the deal would only come into force once the US had lifted all sorts of sanctions, related entanglements to Russian maritime trade that were put in place because of Russia's invasion of its neighbor. Things like plugging Russia's state agricultural bank back into the international payment system, giving access to Russian sea vessels in foreign ports, even just solving problems like getting Russian ships insured to haul cargo around the world. So, you know, in essence, Moscow is demanding the US resolve all sorts of complaints that had doomed an earlier United nations brokered deal that tried to get Russian and Ukrainian grain and fertilizer out to world markets in the first year of the war. That's when there were real concerns about global food shortages.

[Michele Martin]

So, look, if I hear you correctly, we're talking sanctions relief for Russia. And that would be a huge concession, wouldn't is?

[Kathryn Marr]

But even for Trump speaking yesterday, he sounded somewhat unsure the US could meet all the Russian demands.

[John Ratcliffe]

They will be looking at them and we're thinking about all of them right now. There are about five or six conditions.

[Kathryn Marr]

You know, the truth here is that the US can't really remove all these barriers without European allies agreeing to do much the same. And Europe remains far more skeptical of Moscow and supportive of Kyiv. Meanwhile, Ukraine, you know, it's objected to what it sees as unilateral sanctions relief for Russia by the US Perhaps with that in mind, the White House also addressed Ukrainian demands, saying it would work towards the return of Ukrainian children and prisoners of war held by Russia. That's something that Kyiv has been asking Trump to press Moscow on, really, ever since he came into office vowing to end the war.

[Michele Martin]

But meanwhile, the fighting does go on in Ukraine.

[Kathryn Marr]

You know, it does. Both Moscow and Kyiv have accused one another of violating that energy infrastructure ceasefire, just as both have continued attacks on targets outside of that agreement. And because of all that, there's a lot of skepticism on both sides this latest ceasefire deal will work. In fact, sometimes it feels like the Trump administration is its own best cheerleader in this process, optimistic, whatever the truth on the ground, that is.

[Michele Martin]

NPR's Charles Mainz in Moscow. Charles, thank you.

[Kathryn Marr]

Thank you.

[N/A]

Hi. This is Steve Inskeep. Our team is in China, inside a historic Chinese trading city where people come from from all over the world to buy wholesale goods to import to their countries. The hotel where we're staying is full. This is a very busy time, and we're here to find out, among other things, how people are responding to tariffs on goods that go to the United States. Listen for that report on up first from NPR News.

[Michele Martin]

And that's up first for Wednesday, March 26th. I'm Michele Martin.

[Ryan Lucas]

And I'm Layla Falden. For your next listen, try Consider this. This from npr. We here at up first give you three big stories of the day. Our Consider this colleagues take a different approach. They dive into a single news story and what it means to you. Learn about a big Story of the day in less than 15 minutes. Listen now on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michele Martin]

Today's episode of up first was edited by Anna you can enough Brett Neely, Rylan Barton, Arizu Rizwani, and Mohamed El Bardisi. It was produced by Ziad Butch, Nia Dumas and Christopher Thomas. We get engineering support from Nisha Hyness, and our technical director is Carly Strange. We hope you'll join us again tomorrow.

[Steve Inskeep]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Boll and Branch. Experience the softness of 100% organic cotton sheets. Take 20% off during the annual spring event at bolenbranch.com with code NPR limited time only exclusions apply. See site for details. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Indeed. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs More visibility@ Indeed.com Stevensonville terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Support for NPR and the following message come from Boland Branch Change your sleep with airy blankets, cloud like duvets and buttery soft Sheets. Save 20% during the annual spring event at bolanbranch.com with code NPR limited time only exclusion supply. See site for details.