Mary Louise Kelly (3:37)

I just want to give you another opportunity to answer this because, as you know, people who work for you in your department, people who have resigned from this department under your leadership, saying you should stand up for the diplomats who work here.

Aisha Rascoe (3:49)

The interview was eventually cut short by Pompeo's deputy assistant secretary. After the interview, Pompeo asked to speak to Mary Louise in private, an interaction she later described on air.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:01)

I was taken to the secretary's private living room where he was waiting and where he shouted at me for about the same amount of time as the interview itself had lasted. He was not happy to have been questioned about Ukraine. He asked, do you think Americans care about Ukraine? He used the F word in that sentence and many others. He asked if I could find Ukraine on a map. I said yes. He called out for his aides to bring him a map of the world with no writing, no countries marked. I pointed to Ukraine. He put the map away. He said, people will hear about this. And then he turned and said he had things to do. And I thanked him again for his time and left.

Aisha Rascoe (4:40)

Well, people did hear about it. The interview went viral, as did the public back and forth between NPR and the secretary of state's office in the aftermath. What stood out to me about this whole situation was how cool, calm and collected Mary Louise was throughout the interaction, even when she was being berated by a powerful member of the administration. And how she kept pushing for the truth. NPR's public editor called it, quote, exemplary ethical journalism. Now Mary Louise Kelly is bringing that trademark exemplary and ethical journalism to a new national security podcast from NPR that just launched last month is called Sources and Methods. We'll be right back with Mayor Louise Kelly to hear more about our new show.

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Aisha Rascoe (6:38)

Mary Louise Kelly, welcome to the Sunday Story.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:41)

Aisha, I am so happy to be here with you. Thanks for inviting me on.

Aisha Rascoe (6:45)

Well, I'm glad to have you here. I'm glad I'm on this side and not the other side. Although you have quite you have interviewed me many times before. I'm joking.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:53)

And you live to tell the tale.

Aisha Rascoe (6:55)

I've lived to tell the tale. So tell us more about the podcast. Why is it called Sources and Methods? Now that's a, what is that, a spy thing?

Mary Louise Kelly (7:03)

It is a spy thing, very common term in espionage national security circles. And it speaks to how do they know what they know? Who told them? Who are the sources? By what methods did the intelligence, this secret information get gathered? And people who work in U.S. intelligence and national security circles will tell you they sweat bullets to protect sources and methods. They don't want it getting out how they know what they know because then that source could be burned. They could be endangered if it's a human source or if it's a satellite or something else that that method of collection could be shut down if your adversary knows how you're spying on them. So it's kind of a cool spy term. But it occurred to me it resonates in our world as journalists as well. We also work sources, we also work to protect their identity if there are people who are putting themselves at a position of risk to share what they know with us. So there was a nice little double entendre there. And the podcast is about how we reporters work our sources to cover national security stories.

Aisha Rascoe (8:11)

And what made you wanna focus on national security in particular, especially at this moment?

Mary Louise Kelly (8:16)

Well, it's my background. It's what I always wanted to do. It's, you know, I've always started covering the State Department and then launched the intelligence beat for NPR back in the days after 911 and the US invasion of Afghanistan and then Iraq. It's such a fascinating beat because unlike almost any other one, including really important beats covering education for examp or health or whatever, spy agencies don't tell you what they're doing. By definition, they want to keep it secret. And I found that such an intriguing challenge, starting out as a reporter trying to cover the CIA. There is no staff directory. You don't get a hard pass. You can't wander around the halls the way you can on Capitol Hill, for example, or the Supreme Court or other big Washington beats. They almost never hold a press conference. They don't tell you what they're doing. So how the heck do you cover them? You have to work sources. I found that really interesting. I still find it really interesting now, 20 years later. And we have a great national security team here at NPR who's doing that kind of work every day. And I thought if we could pull back the curtain a little bit on how they are doing it, what lengths they are going to to try to get stories out there that are in the public interest, to try to ask questions that could be really interesting. Why don't we try it?

Aisha Rascoe (9:33)

What has been some of your favorite topics that you've covered so far? Or has there been something that's been really surprising to you that you've gotten at on the podc?

Mary Louise Kelly (9:43)

So an example, I was in Alaska for the big Trump Putin summit, trying to figure out how do we start to try to end this war in Ukraine. It was fascinating to be there in Anchorage. It was fascinating to hear the White House take on what was achieved and what wasn't. But we on the podcast, the first one that came out after that, we got our correspondence on the ground in Moscow and in Kyiv. I mean, this is it's extraordinary to be able to do that. There are so few major news organizations that have kept a bureau open in Moscow and kept a bureau fully staffed in Kyiv all through this war. We do. We have them and they're sitting watching what's happening in Alaska. To be able to push them and say, how's that playing where you are when you walk to the coffee shop and get your morning cappuccino? What's on people's minds? Greg Myhre, who was then in our Kyiv Bureau when we were having this conversation, he and I had a fascinating exchange where he's trying to tell me how normal daily life often feels in Kyiv. Like there are kids in the street, there are people buying ice cream, People are getting their nails done. It's kind of normal life, he said. It's not like you see soldiers out and about in the streets all the time.

Greg Myhre (10:56)

You know, Ukraine did have a lot of troops in the city in the early days of the war. But now you can really walk around the center of the city, throughout the city and not really see any troops. Occasionally you'll see some here or there, but no, no, don't really have checkpoints or even just see troops walking around.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:14)

That's fascinating. For a country that's been at war for three and a half years, you don't see troops regularly out and about.

Greg Myhre (11:20)

On the street, not in civilian areas. You know, I've been to three cities this week. Kyiv, the capital, Dnipro, sort of South Central, 60 miles from the front line, and now Lviv. And you just don't see that many.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:33)

I had just come in on a train where walking through Union Station here in Washington, there were three guys with firearms strapped to their legs walking in front of me. And Greg and I went back and forth and realized at this precise moment, you're seeing more soldiers on the streets in the capital of Washington, D.C. than in the streets of Kyiv, Ukraine. A country that has been at war for three and a half years. Huh? Yeah, here we are. What do we make of that.

Aisha Rascoe (12:05)

When we come back, Mary Louise Kelly talks about how the national security beat has been changing under the Trump administration, support.

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Mary Louise Kelly (12:54)

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Aisha Rascoe (13:47)

So, you know, obviously, national security has been all over the news lately, and I wanted to get your thoughts on kind of the significance of some things, like, for instance, the administration's rebrand of the Department of Defense to the Department of War. Obviously, that has to be officially changed by Congress, but that's what they are calling it right now. How do you make sense of like that as an approach to national security? What does it say?

Mary Louise Kelly (14:18)

I don't know how I make sense of that as an approach to national security. I think it's fascinating. It prompted me to go back through the history of why the Defense Department was called the Defense Department, because it wasn't always. It was changed after World War II by President Truman, who said, look, we've had enough war. Maybe we should focus on not having a war, on having some peace, so let's change it. And he changed it to the Department of Defense. So it is interesting to me, knowing that history, why our current president, President Trump, who is fond of telling us how many wars he has personally helped to end, and his campaign for the Nobel Peace Prize, which he feels he's earned, why he wants to have a Department of War. And we had a little bit of that conversation on sources and methods before they changed the name, when we were just hearing reports and rumors that that might be where they're heading. So I think it remains very much a live issue, as you say. They're gonna, you know, try to get this through Congress and then go about changing the name officially, which is a huge process in, you know, embassies and military installations all over the world.

Aisha Rascoe (15:23)

There also have been. There's been a lot of talk about changes in how the Pentagon is trying to deal with reporters. The Pentagon has its own press pool. Like, the White House has this press pool, et cetera. And they want new requirements that journalists not gather any information that hasn't already been authorized for release by officials, even stuff that's, like, declassified. And if they do, they risk losing their press credentials or being deemed a security risk. So how do you think that impacts national security stories? Because when we talk about sources and methods at the Pentagon, there are briefings, people have offices, little booths there. They can talk to the press office. It's a part of the job. So talk to me about how that could have an impact.

Mary Louise Kelly (16:12)

It will have a huge impact if this does come to pass. It's one of the subjects we're gonna tackle on sources and methods because it's a big deal if it happens. You talked about news organizations having booths at the Pentagon so we can broadcast live when there's news, or so you can get the official trying to interview and plunk them down in front of a microphone and go live. That has already changed for some news organizations, including npr, which is one of the news organizations that was booted out of our Pentagon booth earlier this year. Our correspondents continue to work covering that department in every way they possibly can. But this would be unprecedented. And I say that as someone who's had a hand in covering the wars in Iraq, covering the war in Afghanistan, covering the wars currently unfolding. I've reported from Ukraine, I've reported from the Middle east, pre censoring information before it comes out. That's not the way that the press works and breaks stories. And I think back on how many stories on my time covering national security. We wouldn't know from torture at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. That wasn't something the Pentagon was issuing press releases about. Reporters had to dig and work sources and try to verify what was happening and what wasn't.

Aisha Rascoe (17:29)

The black Sites were the CIA black.

Mary Louise Kelly (17:32)

Sites after 9 11? Warrantless wiretapping was the original term for domestic surveillance. And what was the National Security agency doing with US taxpayer dollars after 9 11? There were real legal questions that needed to be answered, and they came to light because of reporting done by reporters who were working sources and bringing information to public attention that the Defense Department and other institutions in the US Government didn't want to be out there. I would argue the country is better off because of that. And I would argue that for the Pentagon in particular, which is sending people's sons and daughters to war to risk their lives, that tough questions should be asked and should be answered. If we lose that, then it will become much, much harder to bring stories that are in the public interest to light.

Aisha Rascoe (18:22)

And that's even with stuff like Afghanistan, the withdrawal from Afghanistan, which raised lots of questions from people who are now in this administration. A lot of that was reporting. Right. Reporting not based on just press releases and press conferences.

Mary Louise Kelly (18:36)

Absolutely. And it's not just roaming Pentagon hallways. I mean, it's what happens with reporters who are embedded with US Troops who are out and about in the world. Reporters go in and there's a good faith agreement that they will do to report things fairly and as completely as they possibly can. And of course, we understand the security considerations and their agreements that can be negotiated. Nobody's trying to put anybody in harm's way here. But it is important to be able to ask the questions that occur to you as an eyewitness to big events unfolding around the world.

Aisha Rascoe (19:10)

And so is there someone who you would really like to talk to on the new show? Like someone who's like your big get?

Mary Louise Kelly (19:18)

Ooh, that's such a good question. I have interviewed many of the former still with US CIA directors. I've interviewed them either when they were in the job or after, or both, with a couple of exceptions. Gina Haspel, who was CIA director, never gave an interview to any journalist ever. I would still love to interview her. I will say that the current director, John Radcliffe, has been very good at keeping his counsel and has not done a lot of press. And I would love to ask him questions. Not in any kind of gotcha capacity. That's not how I operate. But in terms of what he sees as the priority for that organization. In a moment where the global world order is changing and resources are not infinite, never have been, never will be, how's he thinking about how to prioritize things, what that agency should be doing, what its job is? That would be a really fascinating conversation to have.

Aisha Rascoe (20:13)

Ultimately, what do you hope listeners will learn from listening to sources and methods?

Mary Louise Kelly (20:19)

I think it is the reporting. I mean, when we were thinking about launching this podcast, I will just say, I said, there are a lot of podcasts out there already. Do we need another one? And there are plenty of national security and foreign policy podcasts out there. Most of them, if you listen and I do, are former officials or academics, really smart people with sometimes really fascinating views. But it's very much the armchair analyst approach. And so what I wanted to do in launching this was say, let's do the reporting. Because I think that's so central right now to public mistrust of journalism is there's all these people telling you what to think about something and giving their opinions. I want to do reporting where we go out in the world, boots on the ground, and just say, here's what I see, here's what I hear, here's what it smells like. Let me describe this road that I'm taking to get to the hospital that's on the front lines in Ukraine. Bring listeners along for that experience and let you hear the facts as best and fully and completely as we can describe them. Let you hear all the things we don't know that are gonna inform what we wake up tomorrow and try to get answers to and make up your own mind what you wanna think. I would listen to that.

Aisha Rascoe (21:38)

Me too. Me too. Mary Louise, thank you so much for talking to us today and for all the work that you do.

Mary Louise Kelly (21:46)

Thank you. This has been an absolute delight. Thanks for having me. I sure.

Aisha Rascoe (21:51)

You can find sources and methods wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. This episode was produced by Michelle Aslam and edited by Liana Simstrom. It was mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team also includes Justine Yan, Andrew Mambo, and Jennifer Schmidt. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. I'm Aisha Rascoe. And up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

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