Up First from NPR

Episode: National Security, Unlocked

Date: October 5, 2025

Host: Ayesha Rascoe
Guest: Mary Louise Kelly

Overview

This episode of Up First’s "The Sunday Story" takes listeners inside NPR’s new national security podcast, Sources and Methods, hosted by Mary Louise Kelly. The discussion explores the significance of fearless journalism amid shifting national security landscapes in the United States, particularly in an era when NPR is operating without federal funding for the first time in over 50 years. The conversation addresses the challenges of reporting on intelligence agencies, the importance of protecting sources, and the evolving relationship between journalists and government institutions like the Pentagon. The episode also touches on the threats posed by increased secrecy and censorship tactics, and what listeners can expect from Sources and Methods when it comes to covering national security.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

Bearing Witness Through Journalism

• Ayesha Rascoe opens by reflecting on NPR’s new era of independence and the responsibility to bear witness to history and truth (00:00).
  • Quote: "As long as you are here, as long as you are tuning in, NPR will be here bearing witness, telling the truth without fear or favor." – Aisha Rascoe (02:14)

Mary Louise Kelly: Fearless Reporting in Action

• Recounts Kelly’s tough questioning of U.S. officials, most notably her viral 2020 interview with then–Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, where she refused to shy from uncomfortable topics (03:10–04:40).
  • Memorable Exchange:
    • Kelly: "Change of subject, Ukraine. Do you owe Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch an apology?" (03:10)
    • Pompeo: "I agreed to come on your show today to talk about Iran." (03:19)
  • Behind the Scenes:
    • Kelly: "I was taken to the secretary's private living room where he shouted at me for about the same amount of time as the interview itself..." (04:01)
    • Kelly: "He asked if I could find Ukraine on a map.... I pointed to Ukraine. He put the map away." (04:15)
  • Impact: The interview was hailed by NPR’s Public Editor as “exemplary ethical journalism.”

Introducing Sources and Methods

• Name Origin & Double Meaning (07:03)

  • "It is a spy thing... it speaks to how do they know what they know? Who told them? By what methods did... this secret information get gathered?" – Mary Louise Kelly (07:03)
  • The phrase resonates with both intelligence work and responsible journalism, highlighting parallel practices of source protection.

• Why Focus on National Security? (08:16)

  • Kelly describes the unique challenges of the "spy beat," covering institutions designed to operate in secrecy.
  • "They almost never hold a press conference. They don’t tell you what they’re doing. So how the heck do you cover them? You have to work sources. I found that really interesting. I still find it really interesting now, 20 years later." – Mary Louise Kelly (08:54)

• Unique Value: The podcast aims to "pull back the curtain" on NPR’s national security reporting, showcasing how stories are uncovered and why transparency matters.

Reporting from the Frontlines

• Real-world Example: Ukraine Coverage (09:43–11:33)
  • Kelly discusses NPR’s ability to report from Moscow and Kyiv, offering on-the-ground perspectives, such as the surprising normalcy in Kyiv despite years of conflict.
    • Greg Myhre: "You know, Ukraine did have a lot of troops in the city in the early days of the war. But now you can really walk around... and not really see any troops." (10:56)
  • Contrast drawn between militarization in Washington, D.C. and Kyiv:
    • "At this precise moment, you're seeing more soldiers on the streets in the capital of Washington, D.C. than in the streets of Kyiv, Ukraine. A country that has been at war for three and a half years. Huh? Yeah, here we are. What do we make of that." – Mary Louise Kelly (11:33)

Changing National Security Under the Trump Administration

• Department of War Rebrand (14:18)
  • Kelly examines the administration’s move to refer to the Department of Defense as the Department of War.
    • "It is interesting to me, knowing that history, why our current president, President Trump... wants to have a Department of War." (14:44)
  • Highlights the disconnect between stated “peace” priorities and the symbolic/literal shift toward overt militarism.

Press Freedom & Information Control

• Restricting Journalistic Access at the Pentagon (16:12)
  • The Pentagon has revoked press booths for some organizations and proposed restricting journalists from gathering non-cleared information—even if declassified.
    • "That has already changed for some news organizations, including NPR, which is one of the news organizations that was booted out of our Pentagon booth earlier this year." (16:33)
  • Kelly warns:
    • "Pre-censoring information before it comes out. That’s not the way that the press works and breaks stories." (16:51)
  • Cites stories that would never have come to light under such restrictive rules, e.g., Abu Ghraib, CIA black sites, warrantless wiretapping. (17:29–18:22)

The Future of National Security Reporting

• Kelly underscores the vital public service of journalism, especially when reporting challenges government secrecy and holds powerful institutions accountable.
  • "It is important to be able to ask the questions that occur to you as an eyewitness to big events unfolding around the world." (18:36)
• Guests Kelly wants: Gina Haspel, former CIA director (never interviewed by anyone), and current CIA director John Radcliffe, for his perspective on agency priorities. (19:18)

What Listeners Can Expect from Sources and Methods

• Distinct Mission: Focuses on original, on-the-ground reporting—distinct from the "armchair analyst" approach of many national security podcasts.
  • "Let’s do the reporting. Because I think that’s so central right now to public mistrust of journalism..." (20:19)
  • "I want to do reporting where we go out in the world, boots on the ground, and just say, here’s what I see, here’s what I hear, here’s what it smells like..." (20:33)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On bearing witness:
  "NPR will be here bearing witness, telling the truth without fear or favor."
  – Aisha Rascoe (02:14)

• On exemplary journalism:
  "NPR’s public editor called it, quote, exemplary ethical journalism."
  – Aisha Rascoe (04:34)

• On the importance of tough reporting:
  "If we lose that, then it will become much, much harder to bring stories that are in the public interest to light."
  – Mary Louise Kelly (18:13)

• On what makes Sources and Methods different:
  "Let you hear the facts as best and fully and completely as we can describe them. Let you hear all the things we don’t know that are gonna inform what we wake up tomorrow and try to get answers to and make up your own mind what you wanna think."
  – Mary Louise Kelly (20:47)

Key Timestamps

• 00:00 – NPR’s new era without federal funding; mission to bear witness
• 03:10–04:40 – Recounting Mary Louise Kelly’s historic Pompeo interview
• 06:38 – Interview with Mary Louise Kelly begins
• 07:03 – Origins of “Sources and Methods”
• 08:16 – Kelly’s background in national security reporting
• 09:43–11:33 – Unique on-the-ground Ukraine coverage
• 14:18 – Analysis of Defense Department’s “Department of War” rebrand
• 16:12–18:22 – Press restrictions at the Pentagon and their implications
• 19:18 – Dream guests for the podcast
• 20:19 – What sets Sources and Methods apart

Conclusion

This episode offers a compelling look at the crucial role of investigative journalism in national security, the challenges faced by reporters in an era of increasing secrecy, and the unique mission of Sources and Methods. Mary Louise Kelly’s stories illustrate both the necessity and the difficulty of holding government to account, while providing listeners with an engaging promise of transparency, original reporting, and an inside look at the methods behind the news.

New episodes of Sources and Methods drop every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.