Rahm Emanuel on 2026 Midterms and Politics in the Trump Era

Summary

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Up First (NPR) — Special Edition: Rahm Emanuel on 2026 Midterms and Politics in the Trump Era

Date: January 22, 2026
Host: Steve Inskeep
Guest: Rahm Emanuel — former Chicago mayor, Obama White House Chief of Staff, U.S. Ambassador to Japan, potential 2026 presidential candidate

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Overview

In this extended, in-depth interview, veteran Democratic strategist and leader Rahm Emanuel unpacks the state of U.S. politics midway through the second Trump presidency. The wide-ranging conversation explores the breakdown of the international order, U.S. relations with allies, education policy, immigration, party strategy for the 2026 midterms, and the changing relationships between Democrats, corporate America, and key social issues. Emanuel provides both sharp critiques and actionable advice for Democrats seeking to reshape their message and electoral coalitions in a turbulent era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Collapse of the US-Led International Order

[01:22 – 10:13]

• Setting the Stage: Discussion begins with a recent speech from Mark Carney at the World Economic Forum declaring the U.S.-led, rules-based economic order “a fiction” that’s no longer credible.
  • Emanuel critiques Trump’s approach to Canada, contrasting strategic opportunities with current isolationism.
• Emanuel’s Core Point:

  “America today is exporting its political dysfunction and China… is exporting their economic dysfunction.” (Rahm Emanuel, 02:33)

• Consequences: U.S. inconsistency and “going it alone” is severely damaging trust among allies, exemplified in key strategic crises (Ukraine, Greenland, tariffs).
• Rebuilding Trust:
  • Trust, once broken, will be much harder to restore—even after a change in leadership.
  • Emanuel rejects a naïve “reset,” advocating instead for “fundamental reforms”:

    “You can't wish these four years away…you’re gonna have to make fundamental reforms, and I would do it together that serve us collectively. So reset, no. Reform, Yes.” (Rahm Emanuel, 09:08)

2. Immigration, ICE, and Federal-Local Dynamics

[10:13 – 19:50]

• On “Ending ICE As We Know It”:
  • Emanuel calls for major reforms, describing ICE as “a lawless mob rather than a law enforcement agency” (11:37), but clarifies he does not advocate outright abolition.
  • Emphasizes loss of trust between national and local law enforcement:

    “The trust between a national security entity… and the public, is essential to responding to a crisis. You're destroying that trust.” (Rahm Emanuel, 11:14)

• Limits of Enforcement:
  • Supports deporting convicted undocumented criminals from prison, not pretrial detainees from jails.

    “Prison? Yes...If you’re in jail, we don’t know whether you’re guilty yet…” (Rahm Emanuel, 18:56)

• Comparison to Obama Era:
  • Obama deported millions, but with more oversight and less spectacle.
  • “Under President Obama…you did not have the federal government using tear gas… or people out of places of worship. So there is a difference here.” (Rahm Emanuel, 18:13)

3. The Emanuel Brothers and the American Dream

[21:46 – 27:37]

• Personal Story: Deeply moving account of Emanuel’s immigrant family roots and the expectations of gratitude and civic duty instilled in his upbringing.

  “You got something that nobody else got. This was a special place. And I think America’s pull is a special place. There’s a gravitational pull towards freedom.” (Rahm Emanuel, 22:32)

• Responsibility and Political Motivation:
  • Cites his 93-year-old mother’s determination to outlast the Trump era (“I have to live another three years just to make sure that that bastard’s out of the office.” — 26:30)
  • Emphasizes public service:

    “When you walk through the door of opportunity…grab a hand and pull somebody through.” (Rahm Emanuel, 33:37)

4. Reviving the American Dream: Economic & Educational Policy

[27:37 – 34:09]

• Policy Platform If Running for President:
  • Restoring affordability and accessibility to the American dream.
  • Cites damning statistics:

    “In the 1950s, 50% of our young adults at the age of 30 were married and owned a home. Today it's down to 14%...The first time homebuyer is now 40. This is crushing.”

• Education as Priority:
  • Blames both parties for failures:

    “Republicans have walked away from public education, abandoned it. And Democrats have abandoned accountability and standards. And both parties are wrong.” (Rahm Emanuel, 32:04)

  • Highlights Mississippi’s success with basics like phonics, intense teacher retraining, and mandatory proficiency benchmarks.
• Urgency & Opportunity:
  • Sees education reform (especially K–8) as the key lever for social mobility:

    “You live in a period of time where you earn what you learn…Today, 50% of our kids are not reading at grade level and doing math at grade level. It’s the lowest it’s been in 30 years.”

5. Democrats and the Education "Culture Wars"

[34:25 – 41:21, 35:41 – 41:21]

• Bathroom Politics versus Classroom Priorities:
  • Summarizes his education critique:

    “Way too much time on bathroom access and not enough time on classroom excellence.” (Rahm Emanuel, 36:28)

  • Accepts trans people and enacted inclusive policies in Chicago, but urges focus on fundamentals, not distractions.
    • “If I run and the issues on trans are the most important, I'm not your guy and I'm okay with that.” (Rahm Emanuel, 39:33)
    • “You can’t believe in equity if you’re complacent with 50% of the kids not reading at grade level.” (Rahm Emanuel, 33:38)
• Democrats’ Strategic Mistake:
  • Admits the party’s focus on divisive cultural issues led them to “the losing side” with voters:

    “We (Democrats) engaged in bringing cultural wars to schools and then found out we were on the losing side of those cultural debates.” (Rahm Emanuel, 41:00)

6. Corporate America, Democrats, and the Rule of Law

[41:21 – 50:03]

• Losing Corporate America:
  • Democrats once held some business support, but both sides blew it.
  • Criticism of corporate complacency:

    “I think they've sold out America…You're watching from the sideline, a nation being destroyed and walking away from the rule of law. Everything you have is built on the premise of the rule of law.” (Rahm Emanuel, 46:36)

  • Democrats’ weakness: focus too much on redistribution, not enough on growth.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 02:33 | Rahm Emanuel | “America today is exporting its political dysfunction and China…is exporting their economic dysfunction.” | | 09:08 | Rahm Emanuel | “You can't wish these four years away… you're going to have to make fundamental reforms, and I would do it together that serve us collectively. So reset, no. Reform, Yes.” | | 11:37 | Rahm Emanuel | “ICE has become a lawless mob rather than a law enforcement agency.” | | 14:01 | Rahm Emanuel | “He has lost the American people and for good reason, because he has overextended way beyond. He never had a mandate…” | | 22:32 | Rahm Emanuel | “You got something that nobody else got. This was a special place. And I think America’s pull is a special place. There’s a gravitational pull towards freedom.” | | 26:30 | Rahm Emanuel (quoting his mother) | “I have to live another three years just to make sure that that bastard’s out of the office.” | | 32:04 | Rahm Emanuel | “Republicans have walked away from public education, abandoned it. And Democrats have abandoned accountability and standards. And both parties are wrong.” | | 33:37 | Rahm Emanuel | “When you walk through the door of opportunity…grab a hand and pull somebody through.” | | 36:28 | Rahm Emanuel | “Way too much time on bathroom access and not enough time on classroom excellence.” | | 39:33 | Rahm Emanuel | “If I run and the issues on trans are the most important, I'm not your guy and I'm okay with that.” | | 41:00 | Rahm Emanuel | “We (Democrats) engaged in bringing cultural wars to schools and then found out we were on the losing side of those cultural debates.” | | 46:36 | Rahm Emanuel | “I think they've sold out America…You're watching from the sideline, a nation being destroyed and walking away from the rule of law…You are timid souls.” |

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Election Strategy: 2026 Midterms and Beyond

[50:03 – 55:30]

• Focus of 2026 Democratic Campaign:
  • "This is a referendum election. Keep it focused on the rubber stamp Republican Congress to President Trump, he's unpopular.” (Rahm Emanuel, 50:10)
  • Warns Democrats to win independents “2 to 1 to win the House.”
  • Three voter moods:
    • Democrats: Anger at Trump and GOP enablers
    • Independents: Discomfort and “Faustian bargain” gone bad
    • MAGA Republicans: Betrayal (“as seen by Marjorie Taylor Greene, seen by Joan Rogan, feel betrayed” 51:49)
• Contest Every Race:
  • Urges Democrats to field candidates for every office—school boards to governor’s mansions—in swing states:

    “This should be a wave election. If you want to set up 2028, make sure in Nevada, Arizona, North Carolina, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin that you have every office from top to bottom, have a person registered as a Democrat...” (Rahm Emanuel, 54:19)

• Economic Message:
  • Use tangible issues (groceries, bills, affordability) to highlight the disconnect between Trump’s distractions (e.g., Greenland) and everyday Americans’ needs.
  • “He's not looking at your paycheck. He's looking at his checkbook.” (Rahm Emanuel, 54:27)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:02 – 01:18: Introduction & Emanuel's credentials
• 01:22 – 10:13: US global leadership, Trump foreign policy, and future of alliances
• 10:13 – 19:50: Immigration, ICE, and law enforcement reform
• 21:46 – 27:37: Emanuel family story and the meaning of the American dream
• 27:37 – 34:09: Emanuel’s economic and educational policy platform
• 34:25 – 41:21: Democratic Party “culture wars,” education priorities, Megyn Kelly podcast fallout
• 41:21 – 50:03: Corporate America and the Democratic coalition
• 50:03 – 55:30: 2026 midterm campaign advice and election strategy

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Conclusion

Rahm Emanuel provides an unvarnished, historically grounded diagnosis of Democratic Party strengths and shortcomings as the 2026 election approaches. Grounding his critique in personal narrative and policy lessons from both sides of the aisle, he urges a return to fundamentals: restore trust abroad, focus domestically on education and economic mobility, and contest every office with practical solutions that speak directly to people’s lives. With memorable one-liners, candid self-reflection, and a call for unapologetic strategic focus, Emanuel’s message is both a warning and a blueprint for Democrats seeking to navigate—and possibly turn—a turbulent political tide.

Transcript

[Steve Inskeep]

Democrat Rahm Emanuel has seen many elections and has advice for this year's this.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is a referendum election. Keep it focused on the rubber stamp Republican Congress. To President Trump.

[Steve Inskeep]

What does he think Democrats are doing right and wrong? It's a special edition of Up FIRST from NPR News. Emanuel is a Democratic Party insider with a critique of the Democratic Party.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Republicans as have walked away from public education, abandoned it and Democrats have abandoned accountability and standards.

[Steve Inskeep]

What did he learn about education from a Republican dominated state? Also, how did Democrats lose corporate America even though many executives worried about Trump?

[Rahm Emanuel]

You're watching from the sideline, a nation being destroyed and walking away from the rule of law.

[Steve Inskeep]

Stay with us for a talk with Rahm Emanuel. Rahm Emanuel has been involved at every level of government. He was a Democratic leader in Congress, President Obama's chief of staff, mayor of Chicago and President Biden's ambassador to Japan. Now he's thinking about a run for president which gives him a platform to promote a particular idea of the Democratic Party. We sat down to talk to him about everything. Welcome to our studios. Thanks for coming by.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Thank you.

[Steve Inskeep]

I want to begin with with the prime minister of Canada.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Good.

[Steve Inskeep]

Which is a sentence that's never been said at the beginning of an interesting podcast.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's where the prime minister wants to begin.

[Steve Inskeep]

I think. So Mark Carney, just before we sat down here, gave a speech at the World Economic Forum in which he effectively said the US Led rules based economic order is over, that it's always been partly a lie, but that people benefited. Now it's been exposed as a total lie and it's done.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is he right? Did he use the word lie?

[Steve Inskeep]

He talked about things being false. Falsehoods. Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. Well, I mean, it probably is a proper follow up to we chased him into the arms of President Xi of China, which was totally unnecessary days ago. Also shows the inconsistency. If you wanted to talk about President Trump's policy of having this region be our region. You take the country with the largest, longest border with the United States and you are shoving them away when they wanted to actually run closer and be more aligned. So there's consequences and also an inherent contradiction to the president's own stated policy. I do think there's two things that I would say that I think are getting lost in all the news. And I'll respond to. And the speech fits in that.

[Steve Inskeep]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

America today is exporting its political dysfunction and China under President Xi is exporting their economic dysfunction. Let me unravel that.

[Steve Inskeep]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

China has a is now 40% of the world's or nearly 40% of the world's manufacturing.

[Steve Inskeep]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

More than the United States, Europe and Japan combined. And because their economy is imbalanced, massive overhang of public debt, massive overhang of housing deflation. The President Xi's decided they're going to export their way out of this. And they're destroying even to not just us but other allies of theirs, not US industrial base. They're exporting their problems onto the world economy, which is why Europe is trying to protect itself. As an example, Chile. The reason the EU has a anti coercion plank in their economic toolbox which they refer to as the bazooka. It was designed to protect your post. Lithuania getting attacked by China. It's being only deployed or talked about in defense of the United States. But it was originally conceived of because of China.

[Steve Inskeep]

Oh, meaning that they were preparing for a trade war with China. Instead they have one with the United States.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Lithuania did something with Taiwan and China did a three year economic coercion. They came up with this tool, an attack on one economically you could use an anti coercion tool, et cetera. Now they're talking about. And the only time they would ever think of deploying it, not to saying they're going to, but was because of the United States and mainly because of what the United States is doing. Threatening tariffs on EU countries, mainly EU as a whole because of the way we're approaching Greenland. And I don't think Carney's take is totally wrong. I'm not sure it's totally right because of the size of the economies. But the order in which we have been a beneficiary is now fundamentally broken and cannot be repaired. So it has to be thought anew.

[Steve Inskeep]

I want to talk that through. Carney is essentially saying the US set up these rules for the global economy and also for human rights and conduct among nations. It was always partly a fiction, he says. I believe he uses the word fiction, but it kind of worked. But now he says the US has stripped the fiction away. It it's a naked power grab. Or great powers, he says are making a naked power grab. So it's done. And smaller nations have to defend themselves.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, you expanded the point. I thought he said only economic. Now I'm hearing also political.

[Steve Inskeep]

It's all in there. Everything is in there. Freedom of the seas, all manner of things.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So let me say that the United States, while maybe never totally lived up to its idealistic claims, it was more consistent with it even when it did things in violation of that. I Think him saying is okay, the game is off, the mask has been ripped off. There's actually no even head faking these aspirations.

[Steve Inskeep]

Yeah, these guys aren't even pretending anymore. So smaller nations have to fend for themselves.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, I mean, this is. There is going to be damage, a legacy of damage and collateral damage from the United States walking away from. Not just that it constructed this, it constructed an international economic, political and strategic. That's what I call NATO and other allies in Europe. A whole set of systems that we benefited from. When you. Now let me give one example of having been ambassador to Japan for the United States. When we deployed export controls against the semiconductor industry of China, we had Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Dutch and the Europeans standing with us. So we didn't have to do it alone. As we saw the president try to do something against China alone and folded. Like that's where the phrase taco comes from. But because we had allies who were invested with the United States, China used to say, we're being isolated. And the answer was ding, you're right. But it was isolated because allies stood shoulder to shoulder with us. So we were a direct beneficiary. When we wanted a strategic objective, we had an army that came. And it wasn't just us. And I mean that metaphorically, not economic, et cetera, but that was an example of having people work with us. And Carney's not wrong. We decided that is a burden on us and we're gonna see the price for that. And that price will be more than the American people on a host of issues, economic, political, strategic, defense wise, that the American people aren't ready to bear alone.

[Steve Inskeep]

Here's the next question though. You're talking about that system in the past tense, which may well be appropriate. And Carney talked about it in the past tense. Do you believe the next president after President Trump could put that system back again?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think the biggest damage will be the trust level, which is we could do it with you, but what's the guarantee it will stand the test of time? That's what's being tested in Ukraine. That's what's being tested in Greenland. That's what's being tested on the tariffs. That's what's being tested. When the United States, you know, as somebody who was part of this, creating the trilateral between the United States, Japan and Korea, which was the worst nightmare for China, the Korean president and the Japanese prime minister just had a two day state visit and the United States was awol, wasn't even invited. That tells you the cost of going alone. And so I don't think it's thrown out, meaning it's over. I understand why the Prime Minister of Canada would feel that way, having just been in Montreal last week. I think being forthright with our traditional allies, here's the trust we have to build. Both of us have a role to play. I think that's the most important thing you can do. How we construct NATO, how we construct our economic relationships, our political coordination in the G7, et cetera, roll those out that you can do and kind of reform them. Not just hit a reset button, but reform them to better serve the future.

[Steve Inskeep]

Reform, meaning you would not want everything to go back to just the way it was in 2016.

[Rahm Emanuel]

First of all, you can't wish these four years away. No matter how much I want, or maybe your audience wants, you can't. So the question is, and the biggest damage is going to be to the trust of the American word. You have a president, United States, and let's deal with Greenland. It's in the news.

[Steve Inskeep]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know, why would you. I said this the other day. Why would you pay full price for something you can get for free? Denmark and Europe are saying, we will do all of that in terms of.

[Steve Inskeep]

National security for Greenland. Everything you want, minerals and everything else.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Let me say this. Go back to Truman, set up a defense treaty. Why would you want to pay full price for something you get for free? You're asking the American taxpayers to build this. Second, is this a geostrategic or is this ego strategic? Because every. He says, well, I need it psychologically. Well, that may not be true for America.

[Steve Inskeep]

This is the thing the president said we should note. He said, it's psychologically important to me.

[Rahm Emanuel]

To own it now because of the way the. Both the stock market, but also the bond market's reacting to American homeowners who want to get a mortgage for their first time home are going to have to pay more on a mortgage because of the president and the way he's behaving. Pause. Is his strategic vision about Greenland correct, not wrong. How he's going about doing it is massively dangerous and damaging to America short, medium and long term. And to me. So you just can't say, okay, I'm back. Let's hit reset. You're gonna have to make fundamental reforms, and I would do it together that serve us collectively. So reset, no. Reform, Yes.

[Steve Inskeep]

I wanna move domestically. There's so much to talk about with you because you've had such a range of experiences in your life. Immigration, there's a lot of focus on Minnesota right now. And the other day on television, you said you wanted to, quote, end ICE as you know it today.

[Rahm Emanuel]

As we know it.

[Steve Inskeep]

As we know it today. Some people will hear that and think you meant abolish ice.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, as we today. That couldn't have been, I think, clearer.

[Steve Inskeep]

I'm inviting you to be clear now.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That will be a test. We'll see if I could pass it. Okay. No, But ICE has become a lawless mob rather than a law enforcement agency. It serves a role, but not trying to be an occupying force in our cities. Taking a US Citizen out of a school, grabbing people who are filing their immigration papers at the courthouse, which means we're. They understand that the rules, and this is the law, is lawless. Wearing masks without identity, no body cams. There's a lot of reforms, and I'll tell you, not just for immigration. As a former mayor of a big city, you have a national crisis one day, a terrorist act. I've seen it both as a mayor and also as a chief of staff to a president. The trust between a national security entity, whether it's ICE and any other entity, local law enforcement and the public, is essential to responding to a crisis. You're destroying that trust. And so I say, and ICE as we know it, because it's not become. It's not a law enforcement entity anymore. It's become a lawless mob. And you can see the action. And the American people agree with this conclusion. What they're doing is creating lawlessness and disorder. So how it's functioning and the way it's lacking, both oversight is ended. As that is, Congress is going to improve the appropriation with some changes here. But another point and illustrating of this example, no police chief of any city of size would ever allow a young man who six months ago got 33 stitches having served back on the street, given all the other both physical, mental and emotional scars.

[Steve Inskeep]

You're referring to the agent who shot Renee Macklin. Good.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yes. And so to me, it has lacks supervision, it lacks purpose, it lacks focus, and it is serving for a political goal, not a law enforcement goal.

[Steve Inskeep]

Well, let's talk about that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So that's when I said. And that's what I meant by the end it as we know it, not end it.

[Steve Inskeep]

That leads to another question. Do you think that in your view, a more competent, better trained ICE with better guidance could accomplish the goal the president has in mind, which is deporting millions of people as quickly as possible?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't think. Well, that's I think you're cleaning up. The president had consensus in the country, and what he claimed we were going to deport is deport undocumented immigrants with criminal records.

[Steve Inskeep]

Sure. He said many things, and that was one of the things.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, that was probably.

[Steve Inskeep]

He said everything at once.

[NPR Announcer]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And it was like a salad bar. You could pick which one you wanted.

[Steve Inskeep]

I think that's actually accurate. Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

What this is morphed to is not what the American people bargained for. And you can see it. If you don't trust me, listen to Joe Rogan referring to them as Gestapo. Okay. So this is not a political. I mean, I'm making a political. Not a partisan, but a political observation. He has lost the American people and for good reason, because he has overextended way beyond. He never had a mandate, but way beyond. What you could have said was the support of the American people. And I think think it's more than just a tweak of management and reform. I don't think any city, and I'm talking about this as having lived through this in Chicago, should have the federal government come in as an occupying force. It's just wrong.

[Steve Inskeep]

That leads to another question, though. You talked about courting.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think all of these lead to.

[Steve Inskeep]

Another question that's absolutely true between federal, state, local authorities. Here. We're just going to continue on. It's going to be a flow of conversation, as things often are. But the next question has to do with that collaboration between federal and local authorities. In many cases, of course, as in Chicago, the governor of Illinois Pritzker has said, well, they're not even communicating with us.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[Steve Inskeep]

But there's still a question. Should local authorities be cooperating with the feds even when they're committing, even when they're doing a mission? They don't first.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know, I believe in community policing.

[Steve Inskeep]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And community policing means, you know, the first word is community. It's working with the community. When you have a wall of distrust that breaks down, every police chief, every head of any law enforcement, federal, local, state will tell you that's a massive problem. One anecdote, if I can. Sure. A mayor of Chicago, President Obama decides. We're going to have the largest NATO meeting in the history of NATO at that time in Chicago. I'm doing this by memory, so I could be off. But 63 countries come, not only NATO, but participating country, et cetera. Sure. We're going to have clearly demonstrations. There was a. The federal government loved our oemc, which is an emergency management department, modern technology, they take it. We coordinate with them. There's heads of state, foreign ministers, defense ministers from 60 plus countries. There are 25,000 protesters each night for four nights. Nothing bad happens, meaning from either property damage or otherwise. That's the type of coordination you want, that's the type of trust you want and that's the ability of this. When you have a major event, you have other types of things that are crises that happen. But here was a major international event held in what I consider the most American of American cities. City of Chicago, sure. And the federal government, and I'm not talking about one single entity. There's national security, there's FBI, there's homeland security, a lot of entities, Chicago Police department, state troopers. There were protesters exercising their First Amendment rights. All went off without a hitch. And everybody high fived at the end because people were able to express their protest, their First Amendment right. There was an agreement in NATO that was historic as it related to Afghanistan. And you had more countries, heads of state and defense ministers ever in the.

[Steve Inskeep]

I get it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So you're asking me. So I'm saying that's what you want and when. Governor, but let's talk about that.

[Steve Inskeep]

There's two sides to the cooperation. I mean, there's a federal government informing the locals what they're doing. But the other question is, should local governments be assisting immigration authorities in finding people who are in the country illegally? Well, should they, for example, be allowing access to jails where people who may have a immigration record are also in jail? Charge.

[Rahm Emanuel]

We have to go through every location. Let's go through it. One, a school down the block from where Amy and I live. There were ICE agents in unmarked car waiting for parents to pick up their kids from school. No, that's a parent doing exactly what you'd want a parent to do. And that is not the crisis we're seeing of somebody who's doing their small business and picking up resources at Home Depot is not where you want it. Somebody filing their papers at the court following the laws we have established as a country based on the law, following the rules for their immigration papers is not where you want to go. Now, I don't want to go through every location, but I think you get the general gist of what I'm saying. The consensus on the country was and Democrat, Republican governors and elected officials at many levels, you had an undocumented immigrant with a criminal record. We don't want him in the country. That was the basis of what we have done.

[Steve Inskeep]

But there's a particular question under wait okay, go ahead. Go ahead.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Under President Obama, we deported. I'm doing this by memory. I think it was like millions of people, over 2 million, 2 and a half, enough that people decided to protest his event and call him deporter in chief.

[Steve Inskeep]

Sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But you did not have the federal government using tear gas. You did not have the federal government being masked security people without names, et cetera, showing up, taking kids out of schools or people out of places of worship. So there is a difference here.

[Steve Inskeep]

Yeah. But there's one specific question I have here. Alejandro Mayorkas, who you know very well, who served in the Obama administration, was secretary of Homeland Security under President Biden, has said the same thing that Tom Homan, who, who works for President Trump has said. Essentially, we would like to be able to go into jails locally and bring out people who have a criminal record and also have an immigration problem. And not every city will allow that. Should that be allowed?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No particular thing. I would say no, it should not be allowed. Well, hold on. I think. Let me draw the distinction. Prison? Yes, Jail. I'm not sure what they're charged with and whether they're convicted. If they're in jail, if they've been convicted, they're in jail. I mean, rather, in prison. 100%. Yeah. They're undocumented and they're serving time because they've been found guilty. Yes. If you're in jail, we don't know whether you're guilty yet, and we don't know whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony yet. There's a lot of unanswered questions. So there's a distinction there.

[Steve Inskeep]

I want to.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So I don't want, like, I don't want you to say you send end. Welver. That's not end.

[Steve Inskeep]

Rather.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's not what I said. I said end it as we know it.

[Steve Inskeep]

I quoted you and invited you to explain.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I have a feeling with npr, I want to make sure the whole answer was there.

[Steve Inskeep]

That's good. We're going to make sure the whole answer is there.

[Rahm Emanuel]

This is all prison is not jail. And prison is what I said.

[Steve Inskeep]

Got it. Got it. Prison is what you said.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yes, because they're convicted.

[Steve Inskeep]

That's how this longtime Democrat views immigration right now. Rahm Emanuel is one of three prominent brothers, and in a moment, we'll hear how they're experiencing this time in history.

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[Steve Inskeep]

Know if they don't, that you are one of three very successful brothers in wildly different fields.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The other two never think that, but I'm glad you never think that you're successful.

[Steve Inskeep]

Is that or that. What are they being humb about themselves?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Ari Emanuel Humble does not fit with the manual.

[Steve Inskeep]

Ari Emanuel is an entertainment executive, which is really not a large enough phrase for everything that he does. Zeke Emanuel is a doctor, very instrumental with Obamacare and also has a book out and other things. I'm just curious, being in such wildly different fields, how are the three of you experiencing this moment in history?

[Rahm Emanuel]

So. This is not to get teary eyed, but I will.

[Steve Inskeep]

It's allowed.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So in our family room growing up, mom and dad had my grandmother on my maternal side purse in the center of the wall. It was framed. Her purse, her purse. Above it was Grandma Sophie and Giddy and Aunt Ida's passports. That was the purse that carried their passport when they came in 1914 to America. Oh wow. On either side of that purse was the black and white photos of mom and Dad's family that neither in the pogroms or the Holocaust made it to America or whatever. And all 28 eyeballs were on you when you were in the family room. Grandpa Herman and Grandma Sophie, who are my mother's parents, lived with us growing up for part of our childhood. And grandpa comes to America in 1914 by himself, 13, 14 years old, goes to Maxwell street, steelworker, meat cutter, truck driver. They meet in Douglas park in Lawndale on the west side of Chicago, at a dance for Eastern European Jews. We knew growing up that America was a very special place. Those pictures were a reminder to the three. Ari, Zeke, and I. You're not to mess this up because you got something that nobody else got. This was a special place. And I think America's pull is a special place. There's a gravitational pull towards freedom. And America has been that place that the. And I don't mean this, soapy. I don't want to be, because this story is told in many different languages and different cultures. But the idea that my grandfather, at 15, his three grandsons, one is an oncologist, has made a name for himself, another in entertainment, has achieved riches and capacities unimaginable from both shtetl and Moldova. And that his grandson can be both the mayor of the city he called home and the chief of staff to a president is not the Emanuel story, It's America's story. And the idea that you have ICE agents chasing people, firing tear gas, unnamed, a president attacking people, both religion, gender, or faith, and using that is unimaginable in a country that opened its arm to him. And so when we talk and we text and I saw Ari this weekend. I saw Zeke on Thursday when he was in Chicago. We all went to see my mother. It's hard to put into words how we're living through this, because this is in such a violation of every value and principle from about four days old to where we are today. And I'll close on one thought. My mother ran corps in Chicago in their late 50s, early civil rights and doing open housing, open beaches in Chicago. And her and grandpa used to fight about politics all the time. Mom was a much more progressive. Grandpa was a Teddy Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman Democrat, et cetera. And so my mother said the other day, she goes, I have to live another three years. She's 93. I have to live another three. Another three years just to make sure that that bastard's out of the office.

[Steve Inskeep]

So she has an opinion, is what you're telling me.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Whether you ask for it, she'll give it to you.

[Steve Inskeep]

Got it? Got it. At the same time, you're all trying to continue to succeed in this changing World in a rapidly changing world. Do you talk about that like, you know, Ari is in an entertainment world that is roiled by constant change. You're in a political world.

[Rahm Emanuel]

This role, I think the change was. Yeah, but I think the change we're trying to see is change not for ourselves, but for other people. And of course you do. I mean, that's what those eyeballs on you are about. You have something that's a gift. This is not to be careless or reckless with. And so there's a responsibility that comes with this and that is self evident. And so yes. Are we continuing to kind of move forward? Yeah, because you have a responsibility. It's easy to kind of turn your back on it and be. My three kids are doing fine. Amy and I are doing great. So at one level you could just say that I feel guilty saying my family's well when I look at everything else going on for everybody else's family. And that's the responsibility that comes with being here.

[Steve Inskeep]

And you're thinking about running for president. If you ran, what would your cause be?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Cause B to make sure that the American dream stays alive for another generation. I think that we have broken faith with it. It's unaffordable, it's inaccessible. And that's totally unacceptable. I'm a product of the American dream. When you said, and Steve, you said this, you know, we're going to get ahead. Who are we getting ahead with? Our parents. You can't do that. Today kids are making three times what their parents made when they got out of college. Yet they're in the basement and their parents could afford a home. In the 1950s, 50% of our young adults at the age of 30 were married and owned a home. Today it's down to 14%. The first time homebuyer is now 40. This is crushing. We have pulled up the ladder, double locked the door, the bridge is closed rock solid and a few kids are able to make it. And 97 of the other kids out of 100 can't. They can't own a home they can't afford. They're one sickness away from health care. They're fighting with the insurance company to get what the doctor prescribed. Their 401, 401Ks become a backstop to their paycheck and education has become unaffordable and forced them into the basement. And to me, the cause would be restoring both the American dream and I do think in both the accessibility and the affordability of the American dream. And from something. If you want stability in democracy, get Stability in the economy that works for people. You used to strive to get to the American middle class dream. Today you struggle to stay in it and more likely you're falling behind on it. And so to me, that would be naive. Also put at the center of that because it's what makes it accessible. You live in a period of time where you earn what you learn. As you know, because we've talked about this many times. Sure. Today, 50% of our kids are not reading at grade level and doing math at grade level. It's the lowest it's been in 30 years. Those kids will be fighting and playing with one hand tied behind their back. If you can't do third grade reading, fourth grade is not easy. That's the answer to the pop quiz. It doesn't get easier. Now, I just came back from Mississippi where they have what is referred to as the Mississippi miracle. But I would refer to it as Mr. Barksdale said to me, who funded this? It's the Mississippi Marathon.

[Steve Inskeep]

I just want to underline for people. Mississippi traditionally right near the bottom.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And in 20 years they've gone from 49th on reading to 9th.

[Steve Inskeep]

And it's a very conservative state. Let's note that as well. So what are they doing right?

[Rahm Emanuel]

What are they doing right? But also two points. One is every other state, Louisiana, Tennessee and Alabama that have replicated it are all seeing similar growth in their reading scores. They've returned to the fundamentals. One back to phonics. Get away from all the hooey that's taught out of Columbia that's ruined kids. Phonics, the science of reading. Retrain the teachers around it. Support the teachers with constant coaching around phonics. Give kids the additional time needed on reading. Give them the additional support if they may need a tutor, and then hold them accountable. No going to fourth grade. If you can't hit third grade, that is it. It's the fundamentals. And they have succeeded. And every state that has replicated has seen similar growth. They've gone from 49th to 9th. Every challenge we face can be answered by what's working in America now. I happen to think on the latter years, and we'll get to this as you want. What we did in Chicago in the high school years were the kind of fundamentals that needs fundamental reforming. The K through 8, or what we did in Chicago pre K through 8 is about returning to the fundamentals, giving the time, giving the teachers the training, giving the kids the support. And you will get gains on reading and math, which are essential for the rest of the education to work.

[Steve Inskeep]

I just want to note, you're a Democrat. You went to an overwhelmingly Republican state.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Not only overwhelmingly, I went to a county, did a town hall standing room only in a county that Donald Trump won by 21%.

[Steve Inskeep]

Is there anything partisan about what you're saying? Anything at all?

[NPR Announcer]

No.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think actually if I had to say, as my mother would say, a few on both of you is one. I don't know if that gets translated in the radio, but it's an old Jewish phrase. Got it.

[Steve Inskeep]

I'll ask you to spell that later.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, it's like a fine.

[Steve Inskeep]

All right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Republicans have walked away from public education, abandoned it.

[Steve Inskeep]

You mean national Republicans, I assume, since you're praising Mississippi, but go on.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And Democrats have abandoned accountability and standards. And both parties are wrong. And it is unacceptable that 50% of our kids are not reading at grade level. I grew up and I believe in the politics where Governor Clinton, Governor Winter from Mississippi, Governor Riley from South Carolina, Governor Hunt from North Carolina, Governor Zell Miller from Georgia, Governor Lawton Childs from Florida. They answered Mr. Bloom's a nation at Risk report. And they came up with major famous report that got us on a 25 year slow, steady progress in reading and math scores. Some fits and starts. That's how this is. You ain't gonna have a linear line. Find somewhere else if you want instant gratification. Ain't happening here. It's hard work. But we as a country answered that challenge today. You know more about the president's position on windmills than you do about the fact that we've had a 30 year low in reading scores. He's never commented on it. No governor of either party has called for a national emergency meeting. And this is not a pop quiz. The answer is with four states who have all adopted something totally fundamental. And they showed you not once, not twice, not three times, four times how to succeed. To me, that is what's essential to getting this country right and getting those kids future right. And one of the things I'll say and I'll shut up. Steven, I know you want to get one of the 925,000 questions.

[Steve Inskeep]

I got a few more to go.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is and this gets back to when you talk to me about us and my family, our responsibility is when you walk through the door of opportunity is not to reach back, as Ms. Obama said, and grab a door handle and shut the door, but to grab a hand and pull somebody through that you can't get from here to there. You can't believe in equity if you're complacent with 50% of the kids not reading at grade level.

[Steve Inskeep]

To Rahm Emanuel, reading is far more important than divisive social issues, which he says Democrats have focused on too much in the past. This was the subject of a much debated comment that he had when appearing on Megyn Kelly's podcast last year.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Can a man become a woman? Can a man become a woman? Not no, thank you, no.

[Steve Inskeep]

After a break, we discussed that quote and ask Emanuel what he meant.

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[Steve Inskeep]

You have argued that your party was missing its priorities on education. Arguing, and I paraphrase here, sure, that Democrats were spending too much time on who goes into what school bathroom and not enough time on the kinds of issues that you have raised. Too much time on trans issues. To be blunt, you a few months ago were on Megyn Kelly podcast and she asked you a yes, no question. And as I recall, the question was can a man become a woman? You said no, then said you were heading for the witness protection program. I want to ask about that because with that remark it seemed to me you were going beyond the question of trans kids, where there's all kinds of debate, or trans kids in sport, where there's a very nuanced debate. And you're saying there aren't trans people. Is that what you meant?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, that first of all, that's not what I said, Steve. Okay, so what I said, so let's dial up since what you said, okay, what I believe way too much time on bathroom access and not enough time on classroom excellence. And you could see it in the whole debate. As a former ambassador to Japan, 8,000 miles away. I was watching this country and you got 50% of your kids can't read at grade level. You tell me the amount of coverage of that versus the amount of coverage on a bathroom, a locker room or sport, as your question indicated.

[Steve Inskeep]

Got it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I will also say number two to you. I've been in Iowa, at a front yard, 400 people, two hours of questions. I was in Waterbury, Mississippi, standing room only, about an hour and a half. So I've taken about 40 questions. Nobody has ever asked me a single question about bathroom, locker room, or sports. Every time I get within 202 area code, it's the second or third question. So that's number one.

[Steve Inskeep]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's not a priority. And American people actually feel in their bones what's missing in education. Now, I'm a mayor in 2016, a full decade ago, I passed an ordinance on bathroom access, but I never allowed it to distract me from high school graduation rates, reading scores and math scores. I was the ambassador, led one of the largest embassies in the United States across the world. We were a very welcoming community, inclusive. But I never allowed it to be a digression from our mission of serving the US Japan alliance and building it stronger and better for the 21st century. Never. Now did I go from acceptance to advocacy. No, that wasn't the job. That wasn't the mission.

[Steve Inskeep]

You accept transformation more than I accept.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I created an accepting culture, but I said, here's who we're serving, the United States of America. So to me, that's what I think is a focus. I never took my eye off a ball. We had eight years of graduation growth. Did in 2016, mid cycle, in my eight years as mayor, we changed laws and the ordinance and passed one on bathroom access. Yeah, but I never took the eye off the ball, unlike what has happened in the debate here. And I just say this because you can see the amount of energy and oxygen on a set of issues. And I.

[Steve Inskeep]

We should be frank. Republicans are going to raise it if you don't.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They just did.

[Steve Inskeep]

Your favorite.

[NPR Announcer]

They did in the campaign.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And walking around in a campaign and saying thousands of years, well, I said that in 2020. Well, campaigns are not about what you said yesterday. They're about what you said in your career. Okay? So that said, you got to deal with that. And I believe the American people are a culture of acceptance, but not one that becomes advocacy. And that's where it crossed the line. Now I've made my position clear. It's not the biggest, it's not the Biggest issue. And I think when you have, and I've said this in tongue in cheek, but I mean this one child is discussing their pronoun and the rest of the class doesn't know what a pronoun is. If I want to be frank, I don't know if I'll run. But if I run and the issues on trans are the most important, I'm not your guy and I'm okay with that. If getting us off of a 30 year low on reading or math scores and somebody that's willing to make that core to what we have to do as a country, then you may think my answers are right and you may think my answers are wrong and I'm okay with that. But I'll tell you one thing I know from history. End of World War, Civil War, end turn of the century, end of the GI and meeting the Sputnik Challenge. The four greatest periods of economic growth and prosperity in American history are underpinned by one constant. Land grant colleges under the Civil War, universal high school education, the GI Bill, and the science and technology challenges of the Sputnik Challenge. We are fighting and we're letting people in America fight with one hand tied behind their back. And so to me, that is what I said I would do. Now I again believe in a culture of acceptance. I have no problem with that. But it will not distract or digress from raising graduation rates post high school education and reading a math course. It's something that should be done, but it's not the thing we send kids to school with. And I also think arguing about the name of a school after Abraham Lincoln and not worrying about the fact that the kids don't know why Abraham Lincoln is an icon is also messed up.

[Steve Inskeep]

This was a debate in California over.

[Rahm Emanuel]

A school called the and I think we engaged and I say we meaning Democrats, engaged in bringing cultural wars to schools and then found out we were on the losing side of those cultural debates. In politics, it's about picking where you want to have a battle. And I think we made a big strategic mistake. We took our eye off educational excellence, went into a cultural landscape and found out we didn't have the public with us.

[Steve Inskeep]

I want to find out if you think there was another strategic mistake. I'm thinking about the answer is yes, many strategic figures.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Now you figure out the question that works.

[Steve Inskeep]

Be a little more specific. I'm thinking about corporate America, which is thought of as a traditional Republican constituency. But I think that during the Obama administration you believed that you had some support in corporate America. There were prominent executives like the head of General Electric who were more or less with you. And I think a lot of corporate America was on board with a lot of the Democratic agenda. It seems clear that in 2024, corporate America made their peace with whatever qualms they had with President Trump and got on board with President Trump. Why do you think Democrats lost corporate America?

[Rahm Emanuel]

We're going to have to come back for a whole nother hour.

[Steve Inskeep]

I'm here for you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is that h e r e or h e a r either one. Either one. So, you know one thing, when I said yes before the question, Henry Kissinger has a great quot does anybody have questions for my answers which describes it a manual perfectly. Okay, so here's what I one is. This is an infamous March 2009 or Spring 2009, I shouldn't say March. We passed the President's Recovery act, the extension of health care for children of working parents without health care. Lilly Ledbetter pay equity. Series of other things about teen and tobacco national service. We have this big Saturday meeting of the President's three children, as he called it, health care reform, financial banking reform and cap and trade. And we have this big debate. Now I would, you know, and I point at the other end of the Roosevelt table is domestic policy. Every day that you're not doing healthcare, a day you're not gonna get it done. And if you look at the history of healthcare going all the way back to Teddy Roosevelt, pretty good analysis, especially with Hillary care being kind of front and center in the 90s. Yeah, the economic team did not want to do anything, but they also thought specifically financial reform would prevent banks from lending. That was important for getting the economy moving again. Representing the political group around the table, myself and David Axel, where I was a vocal I was for doing first financial and, and banking reform. One is if the history, as I told the president, if you want to pass health care reform, the industry, insurance, pharmacy, have to be on your side of the table. That's a lesson from Hillary's fail in financial reform. The banks and the insurance executives are going to be on the other side. And America, after the Recovery act, after the tarp, TARP need to see you fighting for them against the people that they think have wreaked havoc on their lives, making them lose homes. Obviously, you know the history. His first child, as he said, was healthcare reform.

[Steve Inskeep]

He went for that, didn't do financial.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's why you get no and that's, you know, look, I kind of argue you got universal health care Reform. But you also got the Tea party. Not everything's 100%. That's life. But that's why he gets paid the big bucks. And you have to have judgment in the Oval Office, which is something that's sorely lacking right now. So to me, that's kind of the choices now, why corporate America goes from kind of okay with President Obama's policy. And I think this is a little shortchanged. Not all of corporate America was there.

[Steve Inskeep]

Understood.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, that's kind of a.

[Steve Inskeep]

But you had some support in the traditionally Republican area.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, I wouldn't say you did. And I mean, I could give you. Steve Schwarzman yelled at the president for. Called him. You know, I think his policies, I mean, I don't want to get into language about Nazis and stuff like that. And they. They had images of, you know, I mean, things that were said about the president out from voices in corporate America. They were also violently against him doing health care when they said just talk about the economy and et cetera. So it was not like they were always applauding. So at least my memory's slightly different than your memory.

[Steve Inskeep]

No, I understand. I understand.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But there was a consensus around when we were first coming up with the Recovery Act. I mean, Jamie Dimon says in the East Wing in a big meeting with financial and business leaders. And this is when you're facing close to a small D Depression, whatever it is, it's gotta be big, it's gotta be bold, and it's gotta be harsh and just get the thing moving and do it all across the whole waterfront. That became pretty much what we did from the Recovery act, et cetera. So there was some consensus there. I think corporate America here just. I'll say it here is I think they've sold out America and America is loyal to them. And what I mean by that is you benefit from a nation built on laws, and you're watching from the sideline. A nation being destroyed and walking away from the rule of law. Everything you have is built on the premise of the rule of law. Number two, the president's declared war on the greatest research system in the world it's ever seen. And your company is a direct beneficiary of that. And you're like the three monkeys. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. You are timid souls. And if you don't want to speak of individually, what is these business groups for but collective voice with a singular message? The core crux of the world economy and the US Great economy is built on the rule of Law, great education, great research at our great universities, and the capacity to both find the talent, the kind of level playing field that the rule of law gives and the certainty it gives, and also the ideas that are coming out of the golden goose called our university system. And every one of you but one or two to the person have been incredibly timid souls. To quote Teddy Roosevelt, I have lost and I know this in respect. So they've decided for their short term stock, I suppose. And I don't want to say all corporate America, but for a whole host of reasons, and I've heard them say things in private to me, but for a whole host of reasons they've decided to bite their tongue. And I will tell you, this will come home to roost.

[Steve Inskeep]

Did Democrats also do something, as on other issues, to drive people away? That might have been people or corporate America? Corporate America.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Corporate America. Okay, you said people there and I wasn't sure what you said.

[Steve Inskeep]

Thank you for asking.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, no, I don't mean that. I'm serious. I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

[Steve Inskeep]

I wanted to know if you've said the Democrats were driving people away with the wrong focus on education. Is there something having to do with corporate America where Democrats. Something about your approach to social issues or taxes or business or regulation? I think that drove corporate America.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think one of the things that my analysis is both parties got it wrong. I kind of, I'm saying this shorthand, but the Republican parties are dominated by a monopolist mindset and our party's starting to get dominated by a bunch of Marxists. And both Marxism and monopolists don't serve the economy well. I think generically this is generic at 10,000ft without a name to it. Democrats don't talk about growth and should be the party that talks and actually executes growth versus redistribution. I happen to think education is core to growth. Investing in our energy and capacity is core to our growth, as is modernizing our infrastructure is core to our growth. Our university systems and college systems and community college systems are essential for our growth. A country based not only in the rule of law is also essential for our growth. And I think making sure that more people, not only there is growth, but more people are participating and beneficiary. To me, like take this whole issue of affordability. People are talking about housing, they're talking about groceries, they're talking about gas. I want to talk about incomes. You have a situation where incomes, you have one man getting a trillion dollar income from a company and other people haven't seen either their minimum wage or their incomes grow. And this is insane to me. So if you want to deal with affordability, maybe you can drive grocery prices down. I think it's better you have a chat to grow people's incomes up.

[Steve Inskeep]

I want to ask separately about in.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Corporate America to get to this point, their profits have never been better. Their stock has never been higher until today when the president decided to have war on Greenland. And they have done nothing to share that income growth and the growth of the company with all their workers.

[Steve Inskeep]

Final question.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yes, Steve.

[Steve Inskeep]

What's one piece of advice you would give to Democrats running in this year's election?

[Rahm Emanuel]

My advice is that this is a referendum election. Keep it focused on the rubber stamp Republican Congress to President Trump, he's unpopular. Midterms that have one party in power have a law of physics. Massive energy by the party out of power. We're seeing that in every special anywhere in the country for the last year. Massive downturn by the party in power. You're seeing that with Republican votes all over the place. You have to win independents 2 to 1 to win the House. They are uncomfortable with Donald Trump and they're uncomfortable that nobody's from the Roberts Court to the press and media to the Republicans in Congress are putting a checkmate on him.

[Steve Inskeep]

What do you have to do with the Senate where you will have to win rural states, Republican states.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, this is my look. Nearly 50% of the electorate identifies as independent in every House, every U.S. senate, where you have a chance of building a majority and also which is lost. If I may say this, Steve, what's also happening in the state races, school every this election, There shouldn't be a school board seat all the way up to the governor in the seven most important swing states. Empty. It should always have a D next to it. But make this a referendum on what the Republicans have been enabling Donald Trump to do, because he is going to drive this election. He's driving down turnout among Republicans and driving turnout among Republicans. Win the hearts and minds of the unaffiliated and you got yourself a majority.

[Steve Inskeep]

You think that you could even win in Iowa, where Democrats haven't won for years with that formula?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, you have. So let's go over the real estate. Not everybody's a weirdo like me. You have a governor's race, a Senate race, four congressional races, not counting also the Capitol. You won five months ago in an area Donald Trump won a state Senate seat that he won by 22%. It flipped to the Democrats. It was the canary in the coal mine. This thing is coming and there is a potential for a wave. But to win in Iowa yet you are going to have Democratic turnout. Here's how I look at the electorate. Democrats are mad at what Donald Trump's doing and mad that he's getting away with it. Independent voters are uncomfortable. They made a Faustian bargain. They didn't like Donald Trump personally. They were uncomfortable with them, but they thought they were going to get economics out of it. They've gotten neither the economics and they've gotten all the personality. And so they're furious. They're uncomfortable with a rubber stamp Republican Congress. I happen to think Republican MAGA voters, as seen by Marjorie Taylor Greene, seen by Joan Rogan, feel betrayed, a different emotion. There are three distinct emotions in this anger among Democrats, uncomfortable and disquieted, and discomfort among independents, betrayal among MAGA voters and Democrats. Focus is on their base, which are going to turn out because they want to send a message, win the hearts and minds of the unaffiliated voters and that's your ticket to a majority.

[Steve Inskeep]

You said also you don't even want a school board seat to be empty. You want Democrats running for every office. Why does that matter in swing states? Just explain it for me.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, one item. You know, the closer you get to where people lives, the more energized there. Nothing's more energizing. School boards, number two, not just school boards. But I'm saying anything that gets close to the I used to have a rule when I was mayor, you better be very smart and strategic about it. It gets to the front door or the back door of the House. So my thing is, I happen to think like 1994, like 2006, like 2010 and like 2018. This is going to be a wave election. If you want to set up 2028, make sure in Nevada, Arizona, North Carolina, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin that you have every office from top to bottom, have a person registered as a Democrat or an independent running under the guy.

[Steve Inskeep]

Even if they got no chance to win, they need to be running.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You say when you have a wave election. The rule I've always had in politics.

[Steve Inskeep]

Well, wave, maybe they do okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The rule I've had in politics, when you think it's bad, it's worse. When you think it good, it's better. Where I'm sitting today, good is going to look like better. Could change. Ten months to go. But take, let's just take the news today. Here's how I would see this. He's all focused on Greenland. I want to focus on groceries. You want to focus on Venezuela. I want to focus on Virginia. Number two, there's a consequence him focused not on groceries. And him focused on Greenland and drive that home. He's not looking at your paycheck. He's looking at his checkbook every time. Take a look at what he is doing and may untie the fact that the Republicans are not constraining him, not refocusing him. But it's going to come to you in an electric bill. It's going to come to you in a health care bill. It's going to come to the fact that your child who did everything right is now living in the basement and can't find a job.

[Steve Inskeep]

Rahm Emanuel, thanks so much.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yep.

[Steve Inskeep]

Enjoyed the conversation.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, we got a thousand more questions to go.

[Steve Inskeep]

We do. We do. We'll do those afterward or the next time you come by. Thank you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Thank you, Steve.

[Steve Inskeep]

This has been a special edition of UP FIRST from NPR News. It's one of our all platform interviews. It's a podcast, it's video, and it's on the radio at NPR's Morning Edition. This episode was edited by Reena Advani. It was produced by Barry Gordimer and Katie Klein. We get engineering support from Robert Rodriguez. And our deputy executive producer is Kelly Dickens. Our executive producer is Jay Shaler. I'm Steve Inskeep. Join us again.

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