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Michelle Martin (2:44)

Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Will be testifying in the Senate today after a week of upheaval at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

NPR Host (2:53)

Last week, Kennedy pressured the brand new CDC director Susan Menares to resign and when she refused, the White House fired her. Then three top CDC officials resigned in protest.

Michelle Martin (3:04)

NPR's Selena Simmons Duffin is here to tell us what to expect at the hearing today. So Selena, technically this hearing is not about the turnover of leadership of the cdc.

Selena Simmons Duffin (3:14)

Right. This is a Senate Finance Committee hearing announced last week to go over the president's 2026 health care agenda.

Michelle Martin (3:21)

Okay, so that's the stated topic, but what do you think Senators might ask Secretary Kennedy about?

Selena Simmons Duffin (3:28)

Yeah, I'm expecting it's going to be like a lot of hearings in recent years where there's kind of a split screen depending on the party of the Senator doing the questioning. When Democrats are asking the questions, I think they're going to hammer Kennedy about what happened last week at cdc. And about vaccine. Kennedy has replaced a key vaccine advisory panel with his own hand picked roster of people who have a history of anti vaccine activism. They are set to shake up recommendations on a variety of vaccines later this month. Several Democratic lawmakers, a variety of public health groups and more than a thousand current and former HHS employees have all called on Kennedy to resign in the last few days. And some Democratic states are now making moves to try and run public health without relying on cdc. Given all of the chaos there yesterday, California, Washington and Oregon launched the West Coast Health alliance to coordinate their own health guidance and vaccine recommendations.

Michelle Martin (4:25)

Okay, so that's what you expect to hear from Democrats. What about Republicans?

Selena Simmons Duffin (4:29)

Republicans are moving in the opposite direction. Florida announced plans to end all vaccine mandates for children and adults yesterday. I think Republican Senators will talk a lot about Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again agenda. He's been traveling all around the country with governors who are signing state laws related to some of his food related priorities like limiting food dyes and ultra processed foods. There may be Republicans asking about the drastic cuts in biomedical research funding. I think a lot of people are really going to be wondering what Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana is going to say in this hearing in particular.

Michelle Martin (5:06)

Ooh, Bill Cassidy. Why him? Why is that?

Selena Simmons Duffin (5:08)

Well, Cassidy is a physician. He chairs the Health Committee which oversees HHS and he believes strongly in vaccines. Kennedy won Cassidy's vote by promising he wouldn't change that CDC vaccine advisory panel. Obviously Kennedy broke that promise. He fired everyone on that committee and replaced them. So I'll be watching to see whether Cassidy is going to call Kennedy out for all of the aggressive changes he's been making when it comes to vaccine policy.

Michelle Martin (5:35)

What do you expect to hear from Kennedy?

Selena Simmons Duffin (5:37)

Well, you know, in interviews over the last week, he seemed kind of unbothered by the upheaval at cdc. He wrote an op ed in the Wall Street Journal over the week defending his actions. And in the piece, he places the blame for the high COVID 19 deaths in those early years of the pandemic squarely on cdc, even though I think you could argue that politics and incomplete information about an emerging virus deserve a fair share of the blame. I know what he wants to talk about are his MAHA efforts and what he calls the chronic disease epidemic. So I think he's going to try to keep that the focus as much as possible.

Cory Turner (6:11)

All right.

Michelle Martin (6:12)

That's npr. Selena Simmons, Duffin, thanks a lot.

Selena Simmons Duffin (6:14)

Thank you.

NPR Host (6:22)

President Trump is trying to exert more control over the Federal Reserve.

Michelle Martin (6:26)

One test of that effort will come this morning when a Senate committee holds a hearing on Trump's nominee to fill a vacant seat on the Fed's governing board. Trump is also hoping to fill a second seat by getting rid of Fed Governor Lisa Cook. That move is being challenged in court. The potential shakeup at the Fed is seen as a serious threat to the central bank's independence.

NPR Host (6:46)

NPRT chief economics correspondent Scott Horsey is with us now to tell us more about this. Good morning, Scott.

Scott Horsley (6:51)

Good morning, Scott.

NPR Host (6:52)

What are the stakes here? Is this mainly about Trump wanting lower interest rates?

Scott Horsley (6:57)

Interest rates are certainly part of the story, but more broadly, this is about power and who gets to control decision making at the Federal Reserve. Trump has made no secret of the fact he wants lower borrowing costs, and he's likely to get that wish when policymakers meet in a couple of weeks. That's because the job market is showing signs of softening, and lower interest rates might help to cushion that a little bit. But Trump wants more. He wants to install more of his own people at the central bank. He's nominated a White House economic adviser, Stephen Miron, to fill one vacancy on the Fed's board. And if he's successful in pushing Fed Governor Lisa Cook aside, he'll get a chance to put another ally on the board. That would mean four out of seven Fed governors would be Trump appointees. And the president told reporters last week he's looking forward to that.

Senate Republican Senator (possibly Bill Cassidy) (7:43)

We'll have a majority very shortly. So that'll be great. Once we have a majority. Housing is going to swing and it's going to be great. People are paying too high an interest rate.

Scott Horsley (7:53)

Now. Two caveats. One, the Fed does not directly control mortgage rates. Those are set in the bond market. So this move could actually backfire if investors come to think a Trump dominated Fed might let inflation get out of control. And two, Congress set up the Fed to be insulated from exactly this kind of political pressure from the White House.

NPR Host (8:12)

So, Scott, what's your sense of how this is going to play out?

Scott Horsley (8:16)

Right now the fight's being waged on two fronts. One's in the courts where Lisa Cook has filed a lawsuit to prevent the president from firing her from the Fed board. Trump and his allies have accused Cook of mortgage fraud, but Cook denies that and says that's just a pretext to muscle her off the board. While that's being sorted out in the courts, the Senate has a chance to weigh in. We will hear in particular if any Senate Republicans stand up for Fed independence. They have done so in the past. We will see if they're willing to challenge the president this time.

NPR Host (8:44)

Is Fed independence likely to come up at today's confirmation hearing?

Scott Horsley (8:48)

Yeah, I'm sure we'll hear a lot of questions, at least from Democrats on the committee. Trump's nominee, Stephen Myron, co authored a paper last year in which he argued the president should have more control over the Fed's Board of Governors. Now, he also suggested a ban on people moving from the White House to the Fed, although obviously that is not in effect right now. Most other advanced economies have decided it's a good idea to insulate their central banks from meddling by politicians. Fed Chairman Jerome Powell says it just makes for better long term decision making.

Michelle Martin (9:20)

If you were not to have that, there would be a great temptation, of course, to use interest rates to affect elections, for example, and that's something that we don't want to do.

Scott Horsley (9:30)

Powell's own term as Fed chairman runs out next May, and at that time, Trump will have the opportunity to name a new chairman. Powell could remain on the board as a Fed governor, however, through 2028. So far, the Fed chairman has not said whether he plans to stick around that long.

NPR Host (9:47)

That is NPR Scott Horsley. Scott, thank you.

Scott Horsley (9:50)

You're welcome.

NPR Host (9:59)

A federal judge in Boston handed Harvard University a big win on Wednesday.

Michelle Martin (10:03)

The judge says the Trump administration unlawfully froze more than $2 billion in research funding to the school. The administration put the freeze in place in what it says was a response to allegations of anti Semitism on campus, which prompted Harvard to sue.

NPR Host (10:18)

NPR education correspondent Cory Turner has been looking over the judge's 84 page ruling and is with us now to tell us more about it. Cory, good morning.

Cory Turner (10:25)

Good morning, Michelle.

NPR Host (10:26)

So what can you tell us about how the funding for use, according to the judge, ran afoul of the law? Yeah.

Cory Turner (10:31)

Judge Allison Burroughs offered really not one argument, but several. For starters, she pointed out that the research being defunded at Harvard included studies of Alzheimer's, cancer, Lou Gehrig's disease, heart disease, autism. There was even a study to help emergency room doctors better serve suicidal veterans. None of which, the judge said had any clear connection to antisemitism on campus. Burroughs also said the freeze violated Harvard's First Amendment rights. And that's because at the same time, the Trump administration claimed it was doing this to fight antisemitism, President Trump was excoriating Harvard more broadly on Truth Social for being a, quote, liberal mess and, and for fighting back against the administration. So the judge said she found it, quote, difficult to conclude anything other than that the administration used antisemitism as a smokescreen for a targeted, ideologically motivated assault.

NPR Host (11:30)

You know, Cory, it's interesting. Harvard has said that anti Semitism had become a problem on campus. Does the judge speak to that?

Cory Turner (11:38)

Yeah. In a ruling, Judge Burroughs was kind of hard on Harvard, saying, quote, it had been plagued by antisemitism in recent years and could, could, and should have done a better job of dealing with the issue. But she said Harvard was already taking steps to do just that when the Trump administration froze its funding. In fact, this was actually another way the administration, she said, had run afoul of federal law. It had accused Harvard of violating Title 6 of the Civil Rights act of 1964, the landmark law that protects Americans from discrimination based on race, color, and national origin. But Title six requires a very clear step by step process for the government to follow to bring a school into compliance. And the judge said jumping straight to this huge funding freeze essentially skipped most of those steps.

NPR Host (12:28)

So what happens now?

Cory Turner (12:30)

Well, White House spokesperson Liz Houston said, quote, we will immediately move to appeal this egregious decision, and we're confident we will ultimately prevail. Meanwhile, Harvard President Alan Garber's statement was notably subdued, pledging to, quote, continue to assess the implications of the opinion, monitor further legal developments, and be mindful of the changing landscape. And I think, Michelle, that's a nod to the fact that Harvard and the White House have been battling on multiple fronts here while also talking behind the scenes about a potential settlement agreement like the ones already signed by Columbia and Brown University. It's hard to know what a effect this ruling is ultimately going to have, but I think it's pretty clear it strengthens Harvard's bargaining position.

NPR Host (13:16)

That is NPR education correspondent Cory Turner. Corey, thank you.

Scott Horsley (13:20)

You're welcome, Michelle.

NPR Host (13:25)

And that's up first for Thursday, September 4th. I'm Michelle Martin.

Michelle Martin (13:28)

Madame Martinez, Consider this could be your next listen. It's from npr. We here at up first give you the three big stories of the day. Or consider this Colleagues take a different approach. They dive into a single news story and what it means to you in less than 15 minutes. Listen now on the NPR app or wherever you get those podcasts.

NPR Host (13:45)

Today's episode of up first was edited by Diane Weber, Rafael Nam, Lauren Migaki, Lisa Thompson and Alice Wolfley. It was produced by Ziad Butch, Nia Dumas and Christopher Thomas. We get engineering support from Nisha Hynes, and our technical director is Carly Strange. We hope you'll join us again tomorrow.

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