The Future of Ukraine ... and a US Consumer Agency. More on Black Hawk Crash

Summary

Up First from NPR – Detailed Summary

Episode Title: The Future of Ukraine ... and a US Consumer Agency. More on Black Hawk Crash
Release Date: February 15, 2025
Hosts: Leila Fadel, Steve Inskeep, Michel Martin, A Martinez, Ayesha Rascoe, Scott Simon

---

Introduction

In this episode of NPR's Up First, hosts Ayesha Rascoe and Scott Simon delve into three pressing issues shaping the current geopolitical and domestic landscape: the ongoing conflict in Ukraine and its implications for international security, the Trump administration's aggressive moves against the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), and the investigation into a tragic Black Hawk military helicopter crash. The episode provides comprehensive reporting, insightful analysis, and poignant quotes from key figures involved in each story.

---

The Future of Ukraine

Munich Security Conference and Changing US Policy

World leaders convened in Munich to address the uncertain future of Ukraine amidst shifting US foreign policy under President Trump. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy emphasized the need for strong security guarantees in any peace agreement.

Ukrainian Resilience and International Support

Joanna Kakisis, NPR's Ukraine correspondent in Kyiv, highlighted the resilience of Ukraine's army, bolstered by global aid, in resisting Russian aggression. Kakisis remarked, "Right now, Ukraine's army, supported by global aid, thank you so much, is holding back Russia. But if not us, then who will stop them?” (00:25)

US Policy Shifts and Ukrainian Concerns

The episode discusses President Trump's unexpected pivot in US foreign policy, specifically his intent to engage directly with Russia. Scott Simon notes that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has publicly dismissed Ukraine's aspirations to join NATO and reclaim occupied territories, causing significant unease among Ukrainians. Kakisis explains, "These developments have really unsettled Ukrainians. I've spoken to many who say they feel like the US, the country they most admire for its democratic values, is betraying them.” (03:27)

Zelenskyy's Response and NATO Ambitions

In response, Zelenskyy has intensified efforts to secure Ukraine's NATO membership, viewing it as the most robust security assurance against Russia. He questioned NATO's hesitancy in confronting Russian President Vladimir Putin, stating, "Zelenskyy said he will not give up pushing for Ukraine to join NATO.” (03:30) Zelenskyy also advocated for European unity, urging the EU to strengthen its collective defense capabilities to deter further Russian advances.

European Unity and Security

Joanna Kakisis pointed out the significant influence of Putin within NATO, noting, "The most influential member of NATO seems to be Putin because his whims have the power to block NATO decisions. And that's despite the fact that it was Ukraine's army that stopped Russia, not a NATO country.” (03:52) This underscores the challenges NATO faces in presenting a unified front without a cohesive European military force.

Looking Ahead

As the conflict approaches its fourth year, the US Special Envoy to Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, is scheduled to visit Ukraine, signaling continued international engagement. The ongoing dialogue at the Munich conference remains a pivotal moment for shaping Ukraine's future and the broader security dynamics in Europe.

---

US Consumer Financial Protection Bureau Under Attack

Trump Administration’s Workforce Reduction

The Trump administration has intensified its efforts to dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), an agency established post-2008 financial crisis to safeguard consumers in financial markets. Recent actions include significant layoffs, with approximately 150 employees—about 9% of the bureau's staff—losing their jobs. Scott Simon reports, "This past week, [the administration] has taken aim at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.” (05:46)

Impact on CFPB Operations

Laurel Walmsley, an NPR representative, expressed deep disappointment over the layoffs, stating, "It's heartbreaking. I think we do exceptional work at the bureau, and I have been honored to serve in this role for the last over a year and a half. I expected to be here for another 15 years. And it's shocking, it's unlawful, for one thing, and extraordinarily disappointing.” (06:38) Amidst these cuts, all CFPB operations have effectively been halted, with employees locked out and the bureau’s systems now accessible to entities like Elon Musk's team.

Legal Battles and Future Uncertainty

The CFPB’s union has filed legal complaints against the administration’s actions, arguing that the shutdown is unlawful and that granting access to external teams violates the Privacy Act. A federal judge has temporarily blocked further layoffs and data deletions until a hearing on March 3. David Schaper explains, "A lot of this is going to play out in court, but for now, there's just no real financial cop looking out for consumers in this country.” (09:32)

CFPB’s Role and Achievements

Established by the Dodd-Frank Act, the CFPB was designed to protect consumers from unfair financial practices. David Schaper highlights its achievements, such as "returning more than $21 billion to Americans by means such as returning fees, canceling debt, reducing loans. And it's done that on a pretty small budget for a federal agency.” (08:59) However, its proactive regulation has made it a target for Republicans, big banks, and Silicon Valley companies, who argue that the bureau overreaches its authority.

Political and Corporate Opposition

The administration’s actions against the CFPB are part of a broader effort to reduce federal regulatory oversight. Critics argue that dismantling the bureau would significantly weaken consumer protections against financial malpractices, leaving consumers vulnerable in a deregulated financial environment.

---

Black Hawk Crash Investigation

Overview of the Tragic Incident

Two weeks prior, a Black Hawk military helicopter tragically collided with a commercial jet over the Potomac River, resulting in the deaths of 67 individuals. Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) have been meticulously analyzing black box data to determine the cause of the crash.

Potential Communication Failures

Initial findings suggest that the helicopter's pilots may have missed critical instructions from air traffic control (ATC). Jennifer Homendy, NTSB Chair, noted, "So the instructions from ATC were to pass behind the CRJ. That transmission was interrupted. It was stepped on.” (11:12) This brief interruption likely led to the pilots not hearing the essential directive to alter their flight path, a factor that could have prevented the collision.

Altitude and Instrumentation Issues

Further investigation revealed discrepancies in altitude data. The helicopter’s radio altimeter, which measures altitude using radio waves, conflicted with data from the flight data recorder (FDR). Homendy stated, "We are looking at the possibility that there may be bad data. We're looking at were they seeing something different in the cockpit that differs from the FDR data, which was radio altimeter.” (12:26) The source of this conflicting information remains unclear, prompting a closer examination of the helicopter's instrumentation systems.

Visibility Concerns

Another aspect under scrutiny is the visibility conditions during the flight. Despite the use of night vision goggles by the Black Hawk crew, the abundance of aircraft and city lights in the area may have hindered their ability to visually identify the commercial jet. Homendy mentioned, "The NTSB will conduct a visibility study to try to determine what the pilots could and could not see.” (12:52)

Final Thoughts

As the investigation continues, the NTSB aims to uncover the precise sequence of events that led to the collision. The focus remains on understanding whether communication failures, instrumentation errors, or visibility issues were the primary contributors to this devastating incident.

---

Conclusion

This episode of Up First provided listeners with an in-depth analysis of the complex and evolving situations surrounding Ukraine's struggle for sovereignty, the Trump administration's assault on consumer financial protections, and the harrowing investigation into a fatal military aviation accident. Through expert interviews and detailed reporting, NPR offers a nuanced perspective on these critical issues, ensuring that listeners are well-informed about the events shaping their world.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Joanna Kakisis on Ukraine’s resistance: "Right now, Ukraine's army, supported by global aid, thank you so much, is holding back Russia. But if not us, then who will stop them?” (00:25)

• Zelenskyy on NATO membership: "Zelenskyy said he will not give up pushing for Ukraine to join NATO.” (03:30)

• Laurel Walmsley on CFPB layoffs: "It's heartbreaking... shocking, it's unlawful, for one thing, and extraordinarily disappointing.” (06:38)

• Jennifer Homendy on ATC instructions: "So the instructions from ATC were to pass behind the CRJ. That transmission was interrupted. It was stepped on.” (11:12)

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of NPR's Up First episode, providing detailed insights and key quotes to inform and engage readers who may not have listened to the original broadcast.

Transcript

[Ayesha Rascoe]

World leaders meet in Munich to discuss the fate of Ukraine now that President.

[Scott Simon]

Trump has abruptly changed US Foreign policy toward that country's war with Russia.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

I'm Ayesha Rascoe.

[Scott Simon]

And I'm Scott Simon. And this is up first from NPR News. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy calls for security guarantees in any peace agreement.

[Joanna Kakisis]

Right now, Ukraine's army, supported by global aid, thank you so much, is holding back Russia. But if not us, then who will stop them?

[Scott Simon]

We'll have more on that, plus a.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Tumultuous week at a federal consumer protection.

[Scott Simon]

Agency and more on last month's fatal plane crash outside of Washington, D.C. so stay with us.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

We have the news you need to start your weekend.

[Jennifer Homendy]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva founder and CEO Ron Rudson shares why Saatva sales associates are focused on finding the perfect mattress for their customers.

[Laurel Walmsley]

At Saatva, we have a 365 day home trial. Why would we want to rush you or try to push you into something that's not right for you? We want to make sure that we guide you to the right mattress. Our team is always available to be helpful to make sure you make the right choice.

[Jennifer Homendy]

Save up to $600 through President's Day at saatva.com NPR this message comes from HubSpot. As a marketer, you have to generate leads, create content and make your brand go viral. It's a lot. Thankfully, there's Breeze, HubSpot's suite of AI tools. Now you can turn one piece of content into all the assets you need for find the best leads and beef up your reporting all in one place. Visit HubSpot.com marketers to see how companies like yours are generating 110% more leads in just 12 months. This message comes from Attentive. Imagine getting a message from your favorite brand tailored just for you. Attentive. The SMS and email platform helps marketers transform interactions into personalized experiences. [e-mail] Upfront First, President Trump has called.

[Scott Simon]

For a speedy end to Russia's war.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

In Ukraine and is pressing zelensky for concessions.

[Scott Simon]

NPR's Ukraine correspondent Joanna Kakisis joins us from Kyiv. Joanna, thanks for being with us.

[Laurel Walmsley]

Thanks for having me, Scott.

[Scott Simon]

And this has been a very important few days, the security conference in Munich, hasn't it for Ukraine?

[Laurel Walmsley]

Yeah, Scott. It's given Zelensky an opportunity to publicly advocate for his country surrounded by European allies who want to see Ukraine in the strongest possible position going into any negotiations to end the war. And Scott, this is important because the U.S. ukraine's strongest single ally, is now speaking directly to Russia, the country that invaded Ukraine and continues to attack it. President Trump says he plans to visit Russia. His defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, has poured cold water on two of Ukraine's most important goals, joining NATO and getting back all of its territory occupied by Russia. And these developments have really unsettled Ukrainians. I've spoken to many who say they feel like the US the country they most admire for its democratic values, is betraying them.

[Scott Simon]

And what's President Zelenskyy's response been?

[Laurel Walmsley]

Well, Zelenskyy admitted that he has a lot of work to do to convince President Trump and his team that Russia is dangerous. Speaking in Munich today, Zelenskyy said he will not give up pushing for Ukraine to join NATO. He sees this Western alliance as Ukraine's strongest security guarantee against Russia, though he did question why NATO is so cautious around Russian President Vladimir Putin.

[Joanna Kakisis]

Right now, the most influential member of NATO seems to be Putin because his whims have the power to block NATO decisions. And that's despite the fact that it was Ukraine's army that stopped Russia, not a NATO country.

[Laurel Walmsley]

Now, the US and other NATO member states are cautious about Moscow because they don't want this war to escalate. Russia is indeed a nuclear power. So Zelda Zelenskyy has tried to use the moment as a call for unity in Europe.

[Scott Simon]

And why is unity in Europe such an important theme for Mr. Zelenskyy?

[Laurel Walmsley]

Well, you know, Ukraine is in talks to be a European Union member state. Zelenskyy wants to tie the EU's fate with Ukraine's, reminding Europeans that it's Ukraine's army that's holding back Russian troops from further aggression into Europe. And he told them, look, Russia takes advantage of perceived weakness and Europeans must be strong and united. Zelenskyy echoed President Trump's call for Europe to take the lead in its own security.

[Joanna Kakisis]

Europe must decide its own future. We need confidence in our own strengths so that others have no choice but to respect Europe's power. And without European army, that is impossible.

[Laurel Walmsley]

Now, European army is not something that can be pulled together very quickly, of course, and negotiations are moving very quickly. Talks about how to end this. This three year war set to continue next week when the US Special envoy to Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, is expected in Ukraine.

[Scott Simon]

And here's Joanna Kakissis in Kyiv. Joanna, thanks so much for being with us.

[Laurel Walmsley]

You're welcome, Scott.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

The Trump administration continues its efforts to shrink the federal workforce.

[Scott Simon]

This past week, it has taken aim at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

That's an agency set up after the 2008 financial crisis to make sure banks stick to rules about credit cards, home loans, and other forms of debt.

[Scott Simon]

NPR's Laurel Walmsley has been following all the twists and turns at the bureau. Laurel, thanks for being with us.

[David Schaper]

Hey there, Scott.

[Scott Simon]

Catch us up. What's been happening with this agency?

[David Schaper]

Well, there's been a lot of layoffs this week. That's part of Trump's plan to massively reduce the federal workforce at CFPB. Some 150 employees lost their jobs. That's about 9% of the staff. Those cuts were largely folks who'd been at the bureau for less than four years. One of the employees who lost her job this week was Johanna Hickman, who was an attorney in the bureau's enforcement division. She received her termination notice at 9pm on Tuesday, and because her work email had already been turned off, it came to her personal email.

[Laurel Walmsley]

You know, it's heartbreaking. I think we do exceptional work at the bureau, and I have been honored.

[David Schaper]

To serve in this role for the.

[Laurel Walmsley]

Last over a year and a half. I expected to be here for another 15 years. And it's shocking, it's unlawful, for one thing, and extraordinarily disappointing.

[David Schaper]

And right now, essentially all of CFPB's work has been halted. Employees have been locked out of the building and told they can't do any work. And Elon Musk's team, meanwhile, has been given access to the building and to its systems.

[Scott Simon]

And where does that leave events now this weekend?

[David Schaper]

Well, staff are bracing for even further cuts. According to a legal complaint by CFPB's union. They're expecting that perhaps 95% of all employees could be fired. A report asked President Trump on Monday whether his goal was to have CFPB totally eliminated, and Trump said yes, but for now, A federal judge ruled yesterday that they can't conduct layoffs at CFPB, at least through March 3, when a hearing is scheduled. And they can't delete any agency data either.

[Scott Simon]

Laurel, remind us. The bureau was created in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, but what does it do?

[David Schaper]

That's right. That's when millions of Americans lost their homes due to lax lending standards, and it brought the global economy tumbling with it. The Dodd Frank act established the bureau to prevent such a disaster from again, at a high level. What the bureau is supposed to do is that it's been tasked by Congress to regulate consumer financial products and services like credit cards mortgages, etc. So consumer protection responsibilities are now unified under one agency that's tasked with being on the side of the consumer against big banks and financial services companies. And it's really done a lot. I mean, just in recent months, it's made rules capping credit card late fees and overdraft fees. It sued the payment app Zelle and the banks that operate it, saying they didn't protect consumers from fraud. And it sued Capital One for advertising a high yield checking account that paid close to zero in interest.

[Scott Simon]

Why is the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau become such a target for some now?

[David Schaper]

Well, all those actions I just mentioned have made it unpopular with some Republicans as well as big banks and Silicon Valley. They say the bureau's too heavy handed in its regulation and they argue it's overstepped its authority. And, you know, if it wasn't so politicized, CFPB would be an unlikely target for cost cutting. Since its launch in 2011, it's returned more than $21 billion to Americans by means such as returning fees, canceling debt, reducing loans. And it's done that on a pretty small budget for a federal agency.

[Scott Simon]

What kind of opposition against this is going on now?

[David Schaper]

Yeah, there's a lot of legal action happening against these moves, as there is with other actions that Trump has taken. A union representing CFPB employees says the Stop Work order is unlawful and it filed a second suit arguing that Musk's team's access to CFPB systems violates the Privacy Act. A key idea, they're arguing, is the executive branch can't just get rid of an agency created by Congress with all the work it's required to do. So a lot of this is going to play out in court, but for now, there's just no real financial cop looking out for consumers in this country.

[Scott Simon]

NPR's Oral Wamsley, thank you so much for being with us. Take care.

[David Schaper]

You're welcome, Scott.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Members of the National Transportation Safety Board have been sorting through black box data for the past two weeks.

[Scott Simon]

They're trying to figure out why a Blackhawk military helicopter crashed into a commercial jet above the Potomac river two weeks ago. 67 people were killed.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Now investigators say the helicopter's pilots may not have heard a critical instruction from air traffic control.

[Scott Simon]

Aviation reporter David Schaper joins us now. David, thanks for being with us.

[Joanna Kakisis]

My pleasure, Scott.

[Scott Simon]

I gather this latest information offers some detail on what the Black Hawk helicopter pilots may not have heard.

[Jennifer Homendy]

Right.

[Joanna Kakisis]

The National Transportation Safety Board investigators outlined the exact paths both aircraft were flying that Wednesday night. One important thing to note about aviation, which is the safest mode of transportation, is that even experienced skilled pilots often undergo training and retraining and they are tested on their skills. So the Black Hawk helicopter was on what they call a check ride in which the crew is being tested, their use of night vision goggles and flying by instruments. And they were flying along this familiar corridor along the Potomac while the American Airlines CRJ regional jet was approaching for a landing at Reagan National Airport. Investigators say cockpit voice recordings indicate that an air traffic controller seemed concerned that the helicopter was flying toward the path of the incoming plane and asked the Black Hawk pilots to fly behind it. Here's NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy.

[Laurel Walmsley]

So the instructions from ATC were to pass behind the crj. That transmission was interrupted. It was stepped on.

[Joanna Kakisis]

Homendy says the mic in the helicopter cockpit was keyed open for just a second or two. But the pilots may have missed the key words passed behind the that's critical instruction that had the pilots actually heard and followed, this disaster might have been averted.

[Scott Simon]

We've also heard that the helicopter may have been flying too high at an altitude that put it near the path of the plane. Any new information on that?

[Joanna Kakisis]

Yes. You know, Hamidi says the helicopter pilots might not have been receiving correct information about their exact altitude. Hamidi says a radio altimeter which uses radio waves bounced off the ground to measure the aircraft's altitude and information gleaned from a flight data recorder were in conflict and showing different altitudes.

[Laurel Walmsley]

We are looking at the possibility of there may be bad data. We're looking at were they seeing something different in the cockpit that differs from the FDR data, which was radio altimeter.

[Joanna Kakisis]

Amandi says it's still not clear why there was erroneous or conflicting data, and the investigation is still in its early stages. But she says this is definitely something the NTSB is focusing on.

[Scott Simon]

We've also heard about the speculation that the two pilots just may not have seen each other's aircraft. The crew of the helicopter in particular may have mistaken another plane for the one into which they crashed. What do investigators say about that now?

[Joanna Kakisis]

Well, investigators did say that the crew of the American jet did pull up aggressively just before the impact, indicating that they likely saw the helicopter at the very last moment. In addition, they did confirm the Black Hawk crew was likely wearing night vision goggles. And they acknowledged there is some concern in an area with a lot of aircraft lights and city lights that it could have been difficult to see the airplane. Chair Homendy says The NDSB will conduct a visibility study to try to determine what the pilots could and could not see.

[Scott Simon]

Aviation reporter David Schaefer, thanks so much.

[Joanna Kakisis]

You're welcome, Scott.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

And that's up first for Saturday, February 15th. I'm Ayesha Rascoe.

[Scott Simon]

And I'm Scott Simon.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

This podcast was produced by Martin Patience with help from Fernando Narrow, Samantha Balaban, Elaina twerk and Gabe O'Connor.

[Scott Simon]

Our director director director is Danny Hensel.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

He keeps us on track. Our editors were Miguel Macias, Dee Parvaz, Nick Spicer, Raphael Nam, Russell Lewis and Matthew Sherman.

[Scott Simon]

Our technical director today, David Greenberg. Engineering support from Stacey Abbott, Simon Laszlo Jansen and Arthur Halliday Laurent.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Evie Stone is our senior supervising editor. And Sarah Lucy Oliver is our executive producer.

[Scott Simon]

Jim Cain is our deputy managing editor.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Tomorrow on the Sunday story, how advocates for homeless people devise the housing first strategy and why conservative lawmakers oppose it.

[Scott Simon]

And for more news, interview, sports and music, you can tune into Weekend Editions Saturday and Sunday. Why don't they do it Monday and Tuesday, too? It's such a good show on your radio. Go to stations.NPR.org to find your local NPR station.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

But on Monday and Tuesday, it's not me and you, Scott. It's not people.

[Scott Simon]

You answered it. Okay. Thank you.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Very nice.

[Laurel Walmsley]

Foreign.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Jitasa, providing bookkeeping, accounting and CFO services exclusively to the nonprofit sector. JITASA is committed to serving nonprofits who.

[David Schaper]

Make the world a better place.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

J I T A S A.com this.

[Jennifer Homendy]

Message comes from NPR sponsor Satva, maker of quality handcrafted mattresses. Founder and CEO Ron Rutson shares one of their core values.

[Laurel Walmsley]

At Saatva, we believe sleep does unlock a superpower. When you wake up and you're totally refreshed, you go after things more. And it all starts with being on the right mattress. And that's what Saatva has been inspired by. From the day that we started save.

[Jennifer Homendy]

Up to $600 through President's Day at saatva.com NPR it this message comes from Intuit.

[David Schaper]

TurboTax Now Taxes is matching with an.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

Expert backed by tech to get you.

[David Schaper]

The most Money back at TurboTax. Com experts only available with TurboTax Live.

[Ayesha Rascoe]

See guarantee details at TurboTax.

[David Schaper]

Com guarantees.