The Talk

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Talk" – Up First from NPR

Episode: The Talk
Release Date: July 20, 2025
Hosts: Aisha Rascoe, Ryan Ross, and Gavin Ross
Duration: Approximately 19 minutes

---

Introduction

In the July 20, 2025 episode of NPR's Up First, titled "The Talk," host Aisha Rascoe delves into the profound and often painful conversations Black parents have with their children about navigating interactions with law enforcement in America. Marking five years since the tragic killing of George Floyd, the episode explores the enduring impact of systemic racism and police brutality on Black families, particularly through the experiences of Ryan Ross, CEO of the Urban Leadership Foundation of Colorado, and his teenage son, Gavin Ross.

---

The Importance of Fatherhood and Aspiration

The episode opens with Ryan Ross reflecting on the profound responsibilities of fatherhood. At [00:05], Rascoe introduces Ryan and Gavin, highlighting Ryan's commitment to empowering Black leaders through education and training. Ryan shares his emotions upon becoming a father, emphasizing his desire to provide a better life for Gavin:

Ryan Ross [03:44]: "Fatherhood is the greatest gift that a man can receive. ... he just made me want to be better."

Ryan elaborates on his aspirations for Gavin, aiming to shield him from the hardships Ryan faced growing up, such as poverty and an abusive environment. His goal is to create a nurturing atmosphere where Gavin can thrive without the burdens of adult struggles.

---

Navigating External and Internal Fears

The conversation shifts to the dual nature of fears Ryan faces as a parent—both internal pressures to be a role model and the external threats posed by societal systems. At [05:15], Ryan discusses the constant vigilance required to protect his son from racial profiling and police brutality:

Ryan Ross [05:15]: "It's both, Right. ... it's a challenging place for young black men to navigate."

He candidly expresses his struggle with his feelings towards police officers, acknowledging the complexity of respecting individual officers while condemning the systemic issues that endanger Black lives.

---

Personal Encounters with Policing

Gavin shares his evolving perception of the police, transitioning from seeing them as protectors in his early education to recognizing the discrimination and harm they can inflict. At [06:20], Gavin recounts learning about Tamir Rice, whose tragic death at age 12 deeply affected him:

Gavin Ross [07:03]: "Tamir Rice ... it made me scared."

Ryan responds with palpable frustration and anger, recounting a personal experience where he and his friends were unjustly pulled over by a white female police officer. At [09:10], he describes the dehumanizing interaction:

Ryan Ross [09:10]: "First thing you hear is, what are you doing? ... we end up being pulled out of the car."

This incident underscores the pervasive mistrust and fear Black individuals face during police encounters.

---

Preparing the Next Generation

As Gavin approaches adulthood, the importance of preparing him for potential police interactions becomes paramount. Ryan outlines the strategies he teaches Gavin to ensure his safety and well-being during such encounters. At [11:15], Gavin articulates the rules his father has instilled:

Gavin Ross [11:15]: "Make sure that you follow every instruction to the T. ... my job is just to make it home."

This preparation emphasizes compliance and de-escalation, reflecting Ryan's dedication to safeguarding his son's life.

---

The Mental Health Impact of Systemic Racism

Rascoe introduces insights from Dr. Ryan Sutton, a psychologist at UT Austin, who warns that the current polarized environment and backlash against diversity initiatives can severely impact the mental health of Black individuals. Ryan acknowledges this in his work, noting how systemic oppression leads to internalized self-blame among Black community members. At [14:55], he states:

Ryan Ross [14:55]: "People are internalizing this and thinking that is their fault. ... we cannot allow that same playbook ... to poison it again."

This segment highlights the critical need for supportive structures and positive affirmations to combat negative self-perceptions fostered by oppressive societal narratives.

---

Affirmations and Building Resilience

The conversation concludes on a hopeful note, focusing on the affirmations Ryan uses to bolster Gavin's self-worth and resilience. At [16:19], Gavin attributes his confidence to his father's daily affirmations:

Gavin Ross [16:19]: "Throughout most of my life, ... my father ... instills these affirmations in me."

Ryan explains that these affirmations are designed to empower his children to stay true to themselves and resist peer pressure. Examples include reminders to "focus strong" and encouragement that "you can do anything I put my mind to." These positive reinforcements are pivotal in helping Gavin navigate the challenges of being a Black man in America.

---

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The Talk is a poignant exploration of the realities Black families face in contemporary America. Through the heartfelt dialogue between Ryan and Gavin Ross, the episode sheds light on the enduring legacy of systemic racism, the emotional toll of policing on Black lives, and the essential strategies parents employ to protect and empower their children. The narrative underscores the importance of open communication, affirmative support, and community empowerment in fostering resilience against societal adversities.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Ross [03:44]: "Fatherhood is the greatest gift that a man can receive."
• Ryan Ross [05:15]: "It's both, Right. ... it's a challenging place for young black men to navigate."
• Gavin Ross [07:03]: "Tamir Rice ... it made me scared."
• Ryan Ross [09:10]: "First thing you hear is, what are you doing? ... we end up being pulled out of the car."
• Gavin Ross [11:15]: "Make sure that you follow every instruction to the T. ... my job is just to make it home."
• Ryan Ross [14:55]: "People are internalizing this and thinking that is their fault. ... we cannot allow that same playbook ... to poison it again."

---

This episode of Up First not only highlights the personal struggles and resilience of a Black father and son but also reflects broader societal issues that continue to affect Black communities across the United States.

Transcript

[Aisha Rascoe]

I'm Aisha Rascoe and this is the Sunday Story where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. This year marks five years since George Floyd was killed by Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, an event that shook the country and sparked a wave of protests against police brutality in black communities. To reflect on what's changed and what hasn't happened, I sat down with Ryan Ross and his son Gavin. Ryan is the CEO of the Urban Leadership foundation of Colorado, which works to empower Black leaders through training in everything from public speaking and entrepreneurship to conflict resolution and negotiation. At the time of our conversation, Gavin was a high school sophomore. Like so many Black families, they've had the talk. What's the talk? The talk is a painful conversation Black parents have to have with their children about the burdens of navigating encounters with law enforcement as a black person in America. It aims to prepare black children, especially Black boys, for a world where authority figures may perceive them as a threat because of their race.

[Ryan Ross]

You know, we have had this conversation many times and every time I hear him express his feelings, I am enraged because this is what I was trying to protect him from.

[Aisha Rascoe]

That's coming up after the break. Stay with us.

[Advertisement Speaker 1]

This message comes from Schwab At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own plan plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more support for.

[Advertisement Speaker 2]

NPR and the following message come from GoodRx. GoodRx can help you save money and better manage your health. This summer, GoodRx lets you compare prescription prices at over 70,000 pharmacies and instantly find free coupons. You can find big savings at the pharmacy for the whole family. Pets too. GoodRx is not insurance but may beat your co pay if you do have insurance save at the pharmacy this summer go to goodrx.com upfirst support for this podcast and the following message come from Made in Cookware president and co founder Jake Kalik shares the key ingredients that go into made in products.

[Advertisement Speaker 1]

We try to design products that are gonna last you an incredibly long time and to know that we're making this in places that take the raw material serious, the manufacturing processes seriously, that's ultimately what's going to allow us to sleep better at night. Selling this product to you.

[Advertisement Speaker 2]

Learn more about Made in Cookware at M A D e I n cookware.com.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Welcome back to the Sunday Story. I'm Aisha Rascoe. And today, a personal conversation about the talk and the worries that come with being a black parent in America. I'm joined by Ryan Ross, the CEO of the Urban Leadership foundation of Colorado, and his teenage son, Gavin. Welcome to the program.

[Ryan Ross]

Hello. Thank you so much for having us.

[Gavin Ross]

Hello.

[Aisha Rascoe]

So, Ryan, I want to start with you. Like, when Gavin was born 15 years ago, what was running through your mind about being his father? Like, what kind of future were you hoping for for him?

[Ryan Ross]

I think that fatherhood is the greatest gift that a man can receive. And so I had a flood of emotions, you know, just making sure I didn't mess him up, making sure that I figured out how to make sure I was good with God and provided a godly life for him. I wanted him to be safe. I wanted him to be successful. I wanted to give him the things that I didn't have, wanted to make sure that his life, you know, growing up was going to be different than mine and not have to experience some of the things I experienced growing up. So it was just a flood of emotions. Right. But ultimately, just, you know, he just made me want to be better.

[Aisha Rascoe]

And when you say you wanted him to grow up in a different way from you, what did that mean to you? What does that look like?

[Ryan Ross]

Well, I grew up rough, right. I grew up, you know, lots of poverty, had a pretty abusive stepfather, and then also just kind of navigating, just being a young black man, trying to make sure I got home, trying to make sure I didn't get in trouble. It was just a lot to focus on outside of just going to school and studying. And so I just wanted to create an atmosphere where my son just had to, you know, where he could just be a kid, not worrying about having to understand adult problems at a young age. And. And so things like that, I know.

[Aisha Rascoe]

You said it made you want to be better. Did you have a fear about living up to your expectations or were you more, I guess, were your fears more internal or were they more external?

[Ryan Ross]

It was both, Right. Like, internally, it was measuring up to be the kind of man that I knew I could be, that I wanted to be, and the kind of man that he could be proud of every day externally. You know, it's the world, man. It's a challenging place for young black men to navigate and, you know, wanting to protect him and try to keep him from some of the ugliness of our society. You know, something that I thought about all the time and recognized that the truth was I wasn't going to be able to do that. So what was I going to do, right? What kinds of choices was I going to make to try to mitigate some of the experiences that I knew undoubtedly he was going to have?

[Aisha Rascoe]

I mean, talking about that outside world. Right. That brings us to something that's a lot harder to talk about. Gavin, you've grown up in a time when the country has been trying to grapple with systemic racism, especially in policing. I wanted to ask you, what do you think of when you think about the police? What goes through your mind?

[Gavin Ross]

Well, in elementary school, kindergarten, learning about the police, I was taught that they were part of our law system. They were put in place to protect us, serve us, and just make sure everyone follows the rules. You know, now, as I've grown older, I've started to see that the very people I look to to protect me started to discriminate against and harm the community I hold most dear.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Was there a specific moment that it started to switch for you? Was it something that happened to you or something that you saw on TV or you witnessed?

[Gavin Ross]

Well, I remember Tamir Rice. I believe he was around 12 years old, and he was playing with a toy gun, and he was shot by Cleveland police officers. And that was the year my sister was born. And it kind of just put into perspective, like, you know, this is scary. You know, I'm a young boy myself, and now I have to, you know, take on the responsibility of being a big brother. It made me scared.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Gavin, Tamir Rice was killed in 2014. That would have made you six years old. Ryan, how do you feel about what you just heard Gavin say?

[Ryan Ross]

You know, we have had this conversation many times, and every time I hear him express his feelings, I am enraged with, because this is what I was trying to protect him from. Six years old, being afraid of the police. Six years old, having to think critically about your behaviors, what you wear. Do you wear a hoodie? Do you not wear a hoodie? What neighborhood do you go in? Right. It's sad, but it's the reality. And that leads me to my feelings about the police. And it's complicated, right? Because I have good friends who've made the choice to become police officers. And that's great. I'm happy for them. But the police, to me, is like the beginning of a Charles Dickens novel. Right. The best of times and the worst of times, especially for black men. Because when you get pulled over by the police or you engage with the police, you feel like, first of all, you get that feeling in your stomach, you get that lump in your throat, like you're nervous, right? Because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if you're going to have a good situation or. Or you're gonna have a traumatic situation that's literally gonna change the trajectory of your life or kill you. And so I struggle with how I feel about police officers in general.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Have you been stopped a lot? Have you had a lot of encounters with the police?

[Ryan Ross]

So, not lately, thank goodness. But when I was younger, I was afforded an opportunity to receive a scholarship to go to a private Catholic school about by car, 45 minutes away from my house by bus, three hours. Right. I'd have to get up in the morning at 5, 5, 15 in the morning to get to school on time at 8:20, and went out there for a better education, went out there to play sports. And it was a predominantly white school, a Catholic school, and, you know, play football games. You know, obviously, games are at 7, they're over around 9 or 10. The bus stopped running after a certain time of the evening. And so in order to get home, you got to get a ride. And one evening, a friend of ours gave us a ride home as a white girl police officer drives past us, flips a U turn, turns on the lights, pulls her over, right? And she rolls down the window. You don't hear, hey, ma', am, do you know why I pulled you over? Or, hey, are you having a good. First thing you hear is, what are you doing? Why? Are you okay? And she's looking at them. We're like, well, yeah, I'm fine. Are you safe? Why? Why are these men in the car with you? We end up being pulled out of the car, sitting on the side of the road, and the police officer actually made her call her parents to let her know who was in her car. Right. And her parents, of course, were like, yeah, those are guys.

[Aisha Rascoe]

I'm assuming that besides you, the other boys in the car were also black.

[Ryan Ross]

Yep. All black boys from my neighborhood. Right. You know, if one of us would have decided to advocate for our rights, to say that something wasn't fair, Gavin may not be alive, and I may not be having this conversation with you.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Gavin, you're gonna be taking your test to get a driver's license soon, and you could have your own set of wills. What have you and your dad talked about as far as what to do if you're pulled over.

[Gavin Ross]

A few simple rules, right? Once you're pulled over, you make sure that you follow every instruction to the T. You make sure you are clear, you make sure there's no sudden movements. And also we just do things to prepare. So for example, we make sure you're license and registration are in the vehicle and it's in a place that cannot be mistaken for anything. And the main important thing that he told me was that my job is just to make it home and do whatever it takes to do that. Because that is what's most important.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Ryan, you know, I have an 11 year old son. My baby, he's growing up, will be a black man in this world. I have a hard time even taking all this in. I know it, I've lived it. This is not new to me, but I hate when I think about it. With my son, with my baby. It makes me so mad because he doesn't deserve that. He's sweet, he's kind. How does it feel to you to have to talk about this with your baby?

[Ryan Ross]

It kills me, but I know it has to be done right. I think about Emmett Till all the time, right? Full of charisma, full of personality, and boom, some people have taken his life and have beaten him. You know, we have to have these critical and courageous and tough conversations with our kids because they have to be prepared because we're not always gonna be with them. Just to be sure, right? Like we have to teach our kids to put themselves in the best situations, to be safe while not becoming bubble people, right? But wanna make sure that they have the skills and ability to always make it home. You get pulled over, I need you to know your rights. But I don't need you to teach the police officer. I need you to just do whatever you need to do. Get home, let me know and then we gonna take care of it from there.

[Aisha Rascoe]

So, Ryan, in this moment, a lot of the focus isn't just on policing anymore. There's been this huge pushback against diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. We're seeing the country grow more and more polarized around race instead of less polarized. And in some places, even books about black history are being pulled from the shelves. You know, I've been paying attention to this psychologist and professor at UT Austin named Dr. Ryan Sutton. He says this kind of environment can really harm the mental health of black people. He explains that when policies silence conversations about systemic problems, it sends the message that people affected by those systems are to blame for their struggles. And so then over time, people can internalize that and start wondering, what's wrong with me? Instead of recognizing that there are bigger forces at play. Ryan, do you see this playing out in your work because you're dealing with diversity? You're trying to champion people of color and helping them to succeed. How is this playing out in your work right now?

[Ryan Ross]

You know, it is. It's live, man. Like, when I look at some people in our community, right. People are internalizing this and thinking that is their fault. Right. Maybe I shouldn't have drove down that street. Maybe I shouldn't go to that neighborhood. No, this is a free country. You can go wherever the heck you want to go, and you should be able to do that. You can't let oppressive structures and oppressive systems and ignorant people change your psyche. And we cannot allow that same playbook, those same antics to come back into this generation and poison it again.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Well, where do the both of you get that reassurance at this moment of who you are as black men? How do you see that affirmation of yourself and your worth as human beings and. And as human beings who are black men?

[Gavin Ross]

Well, I can go ahead and start for that one. I feel like throughout most of my life, actually, no, I can say, you know, wholeheartedly, my entire life, my father, he's been there for me, and every single day, he instills these affirmations in me, and they really help me. Without those affirmations, things might have been a lot different.

[Aisha Rascoe]

Ryan, talk to me about these affirmations. How did you come up with them?

[Ryan Ross]

Well, you know, it's just speaking life and speaking love into my son and to my daughter, that. That's where it came from. Right. I wanted to just instill things into them that just helped them keep going throughout the day and be, you know, just allow them to stand on business in terms of who they are. Right. Ross's lead, never follow. Right. Just reiterating to them that, hey, man, we're leaders. We don't follow people. We can be ourselves unapologetically. You don't have to give in the peer pressure. Right. They are there to be participants in their learning, not just people who sit in the classroom every day when I, you know, drop them off to school. You know, we have a saying. I'll say, hey, Gavin, do your best.

[Gavin Ross]

And have fun all day long. Focus strong. You can do anything I put my mind to.

[Aisha Rascoe]

That's Ryan Ross and his son, Gavin Ross. Thank you both so much for being so open and speaking with us today. Thank you for having us this episode of the Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Sironek, editing by Jenny Schmidt. Special thanks to Andrew Craig and Melissa Gray, who produced the original interview for Weekend Edition. Mastering for this episode was done by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and Justine Yan and our supervising senior producer, Lianna Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our Executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up first is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

[Advertisement Speaker 1]

This message comes from NOCD have you ever had an unwanted thought that gets stuck in your head? It could be ocd. OCD can cause distress in all areas of life, from relationships to how you view yourself, but it's also highly treatable. NOCD's licensed therapists are specially trained in identifying and treating OCD. If you think you're struggling with OCD, visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call.

[Advertisement Speaker 2]

That's nocd.com this message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 dollars for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Advertisement Speaker 1]

This message comes From NPR sponsor NetSuite by Oracle. NetSuite gives you visibility and control to make quick decisions. And with AI embedded, you can automate a lot of everyday tasks, letting your teams stay strategic. Trusted by over 42,000 businesses, NetSuite helps you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot fast. Tame the chaos with NetSuite. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free ebook Navigating Global 3 Insights for Leaders at netsuite.com story.