Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power

Summary

Up First from NPR: “Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power”

Release Date: January 12, 2025
Host/Author: NPR
Episode Title: Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power
Transcript Provided by: The Sunday Story

---

Introduction

In the January 12, 2025 episode of NPR’s Up First, titled “Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power,” host Aisha Roscoe delves deep into the rising influence of Christian nationalism in America. Accompanied by journalist Heath Druzen, creator of the Extremely American podcast, the episode explores how a movement rooted in a small Idaho town is shaping national politics and societal norms.

Defining Christian Nationalism

Heath Druzen begins by unpacking the broad and often misunderstood concept of Christian nationalism. He explains that while the movement encompasses a variety of beliefs, a unifying ideology is Dominionism—the idea that Christianity should govern all aspects of life and that Christ’s teachings should form the foundation of society.

Heath Druzen [01:05]: “Christian nationalism is a pretty broad movement. It can mean a lot of different things, but there are some unifying ideologies...”

Druzen traces his coverage of extremism back to 2018, highlighting how initial skepticism about the movement shifted post-Donald Trump’s election, as Trump amplified Christian nationalist sentiments.

Heath Druzen [02:46]: “When Donald Trump says these things, Christian nationalists say that it's their ideology influencing the now President elect.”

Christchurch Church in Moscow, Idaho

The episode spotlights Moscow, Idaho—a seemingly unlikely hub for Christian nationalism. With a population of about 26,000 and a liberal college-town vibe, Moscow contrasts sharply with the conservative rest of Idaho. Here, Doug Wilson’s Christchurch Church has established significant local influence, aiming to transform Moscow into a “Christian town.”

Heath Druzen [04:32]: “Doug Wilson and his associates at Christchurch, they want a kind of local theocracy where the political power is held only by people who identify as Christian.”

Despite limited electoral success due to the town's liberal leanings, Christchurch’s influence extends nationally through a network of nearly 500 Christian schools and a media empire, positioning Wilson as a central figure in the movement.

Doug Wilson [06:02]: “Secularism is resting on America like a dense fog.”

The Christian Industrial Complex

Doug Wilson has orchestrated what Druzen’s co-reporter James Dawson describes as a “Christian industrial complex,” integrating education, media, and real estate to propagate Christian nationalist ideals.

Heath Druzen [06:12]: “He sees his educational enterprises as munitions factories...”

Wilson’s strategy involves shaping culture through various channels, including schools, publishing, and streaming services, effectively creating an ecosystem where Christian ideology permeates everyday life.

Doug Wilson [06:12]: “[We want] students appearing before the Supreme Court as attorneys...”

Fight Laugh Feast Conference

A significant segment of the episode covers the Fight Laugh Feast conference, a gathering of Christian nationalists led by Gabe Wrench, a prominent figure within the Christchurch network. The four-day event, described as part conference, part festival, serves as a brainstorming hub for converting America into a Christian nation.

Heath Druzen [15:05]: “Fight Laugh Feast is four days of fundamentalist Christians talking to Christians about being Christian.”

Participants discuss strategies to influence government and society, emphasizing a narrow Protestant view of Christianity that excludes other denominations and religions.

Heath Druzen [16:37]: “They want the authority of the Lord Jesus to be confessed by the House and the Senate, and I want the President to sign it.”

Internal Conflicts and Racism

The episode does not shy away from the darker aspects within the movement. Druzen highlights internal conflicts, particularly around issues of race and antisemitism. While some factions attempt to distance themselves from overt racism, others have embraced white supremacist ideologies, revealing a fragmented and contentious movement.

Heath Druzen [24:37]: “Doug Wilson... co wrote a pamphlet called Southern Slavery As It Was, which very much whitewashed the evils of slavery and painted the Confederacy as the victims.”

This internal strife mirrors historical tensions within similar movements, illustrating the complexities and inherent contradictions of modern Christian nationalism.

National Influence and Political Prospects

Drucken underscores the tangible political influence Christian nationalists are beginning to wield. Notable figures connected to the movement include Russ Vogt, leader of Project 2025, and Pete Hegseth, a Fox News personality nominated for Secretary of Defense, both of whom have ties to Doug Wilson’s network.

Heath Druzen [26:11]: “Russ Vogt... wants to use biblical principles to instruct government.”

Idaho serves as a microcosm for potential national trends, with legislation mirroring Christian nationalist priorities, such as restrictive library bills targeting materials deemed “harmful” to minors.

Heath Druzen [28:24]: “Idaho had an early anti-trans bill that was used as a blueprint for later anti-trans bills that passed in other states.”

Future Outlook and Implications

Looking forward, Druzen expresses concern over the movement’s growing influence, especially as demographics shift and Christianity’s dominance in America wanes. The ability of Christian nationalists to adapt and maintain power amidst these changes remains a critical area to watch.

Heath Druzen [29:31]: “What Doug Wilson and his allies can achieve in the next four years, that remains to be seen...”

The episode concludes with a reflection on the patient and pervasive strategies employed by Christian nationalists to embed their ideology deeply within American societal structures.

Conclusion

“Theocrats on the Doorstep of Power” offers a comprehensive exploration of Christian nationalism, illustrating its roots, strategies, and burgeoning influence in American politics. Through insightful interviews and on-the-ground reporting, NPR provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of a movement poised to redefine the nation's cultural and political landscape.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Doug Wilson [06:07]: “Secularism is resting on America like a dense fog.”
• Doug Wilson [06:12]: “We want students making movies. We want students appearing before the Supreme Court as attorneys...”
• Heath Druzen [16:37]: “They want the authority of the Lord Jesus to be confessed by the House and the Senate, and I want the President to sign it.”
• Heath Druzen [18:29]: “Statistically speaking, there's a good chance they think of you as the enemy too.”
• Heath Druzen [24:37]: “Doug Wilson... co wrote a pamphlet called Southern Slavery As It Was, which very much whitewashed the evils of slavery and painted the Confederacy as the victims.”

---

Additional Resources:

• Extremely American Podcast by Heath Druzen – available at npr.org
• Support NPR by donating at donate.npr.org

---

Produced by NPR’s The Sunday Story team, this episode offers a critical lens on the intersection of religion and politics in contemporary America, highlighting the potential ramifications of theocrats gaining political foothold.

Transcript

[Heath Druzen]

Aisha.

[Aisha Roscoe]

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and you're listening to THE Sunday STORY from Up first, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. So if you've been following the news over the last year, you've likely heard about the rise of the Christian nationalism movement. Today on THE Sunday Story, we take a closer look at one group of Christian nationalists and hear their vision for the country in In Their Own Words. I'm here with journalist Heath Druzen. He's the host and creator of the Extremely American Podcast series from Boise State Public Radio and the NPR Network. The podcast series provides an inside look at how a national movement traces back to a church in Idaho. Heath, welcome to the podcast.

[Heath Druzen]

Thanks.

[Aisha Roscoe]

So I know that you've immersed yourself in reporting on Christian nationalism in America. Talk to me about what this very, very broad category means to you.

[Heath Druzen]

Right. So Christian nationalism is a pretty broad movement. It can mean a lot of different things, but there are some unifying ideologies in the movement. One big example is something called Dominionism. Now, that's sort of a jargony term, but really what it means is that Christianity should rule all aspects of life and that Christ's teachings should be the foundation for all of society. And, you know, I've been covering extremism since 2018, just looking at how extremism is interacts with politics. And a lot of my early coverage was about militias. I covered the COVID lockdown pushback, which was really strong in Idaho especially, and even, you know, elected officials pushing conspiracy theories. Eventually, my reporting turned to Christian nationalism. When I started in 2018, I think people saw it as a really fringe movement. I certainly did two and I definitely, even in making this podcast, there was a lot of skepticism as to whether Christian nationalists would ever really matter. But with the election of Donald Trump, I do think that a lot of that skepticism has melted away. The landscape is very different now. Trump himself has said Christians are, quote, under siege and that the left wants to tear down crosses and that we have to, quote, bring back Christianity in this country. And when Donald Trump says these things, Christian nationalists say that it's their ideology influencing the now President elect.

[Aisha Roscoe]

You did a lot of reporting from this college town in Idaho. It's called Moscow. Tell me about your reporting there.

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah, Moscow, Idaho seems like a really unlikely place to be a center of Christian nationalism in the country. It's a kind of sleepy college town of about 26,000 people in north central Idaho, kind of an idyllic area like rolling wheat fields, a lot of agriculture around the town. Real kind of cool, quaint downtown. Also a blue dot in a really red state. I live in Idaho. It's very conservative, I can tell you that firsthand. But Moscow is one of these kind of liberal strongholds, you know, as you'll find in a lot of college towns. So it's a little weird that it's become this kind of center for this unyielding, pretty far right Christian nationalist church called Christchurch. The pastor of Christchurch is Doug Wilson. He leads a congregation of eight to 900 people. He's a Navy veteran in his early 70s and a prolific author of Christian themed books. He spent most of his adult life evangelizing and developing a conservative Christian education model. And he's kind of built this network from Moscow where he's had a lot of influence. He and his church members have been able to buy up some key real estate, also working on a housing development on the edge of town. So a lot of their influence is through money and real estate right now. And that's been alarming a lot of people in town, because the stated goal of Christchurch, locally at least, is to make Moscow a Christian town.

[Aisha Roscoe]

A Christian town, yeah. So what does that mean exactly?

[Heath Druzen]

Doug Wilson and his associates at Christchurch, they want a kind of local theocracy where the political power is held only by people who identify as Christian. Now, they haven't had much luck at the ballot box because it's a liberal town. But what's been fascinating and what kind of drew me to the story is that the fight over the town is, you know, it's really dramatic and interesting, but you could argue that he actually has more influence nationally because Doug Wilson, he's built up, well, what my co reporter, James Dawson on the podcast termed a, quote, Christian industrial complex. He's got this church in Moscow, but he also has churches across the country and across the world. More importantly, he's built up a Christian educational empire where he's got nearly 500 schools across the country, coast to coast in nearly every state in the country. And as he told me, he sees his educational enterprises as munitions factories. He likes to use war terminology. So, you know, he sees his students as basically foot soldiers in the culture wars that he wants to win. And this school system has been really effective, as has his media empire. He's got popular streaming shows. He's got a publishing house called Cannon Press that churns out dozens of titles. He himself has written dozens of books, and they've been pretty influential in these circles.

[Doug Wilson]

Secularism is resting on America Like a dense fog.

[Heath Druzen]

That's Doug Wilson speaking to me in Moscow, Idaho for the podcast in 2023.

[Doug Wilson]

And we want students who are threats to that fog. We want students making movies. We want students appearing before the Supreme Court as attorneys. We want alums who are writing novels that are bestsellers that help shape the worldview of hundreds of thousands of kids who are reading those books and so on. So that's what we mean by shaping culture.

[Aisha Roscoe]

So how did you get access to the church and the people behind it? And do they call themselves Christian nationalists?

[Heath Druzen]

As far as the Christian nationalist label, they've become more and more comfortable with it. They really don't, for the most part, don't shy away from it anymore, even if they say it's coming from people that they disagree with. Originally, the way I got access was I just asked and I was upfront with them. I said, you know, I'm sure you won't like everything in my podcast and you're going to hear from a lot of people who are really critical of you, but I do want to hear you out and I want to get your voice in there. So they did end up talking to me. But what I quickly realized is that I think a big reason they talk to me is simply because they're very proud of what they're doing. When I'm telling you what their plans are, what their ideology is and what they think, I'm not telling you what I think it is. They said it all into my microphone and they were very direct. They want America to be a Christian nation, an explicitly Christian nation, just kind of saying it like it is in their mind.

[Aisha Roscoe]

When we come back, we'll take a listen to some of season two of Heath Druzen's podcast, Extremely American. It starts off with a candid moment between Druzen and Gabriel Rynch. He's a prominent member of Doug Wilson's Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, the Moscow, Idaho based religious organization. Then Druzen and his co reporter James Dawson check out a Christian nationalist conference called Fight Laugh Feast, headlined by Doug Wilson and other leading voices, Voices of the national Movement. We'll be right back.

[Toby Sumter]

This message comes from Spectrum Business. Small business owners put in unlimited hours, unlimited effort and unlimited passion. Why? Because only you know that your business has unlimited potential. That's why Spectrum Business provides fast, reliable Internet, advanced WI fi with security shield and an unlimited mobile line, all for one low price. Built to work for a small business budget. Connect your business to unlimited possibilities. Learn [e-mail] business this message comes from Schwab.

[Gabriel Wrench]

At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own. Plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth using your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from CarMax. Searching for your next car? Don't settle thrive at CarMax. It's easy to shop online or in person with upfront pricing and tools designed to help. Finding a car you love has never been easier. Plus you can sell or trade in your current vehicle with an online offer in minutes. No strings attached. Start shopping now to find a car you'll [e-mail] CarMax the way it should be.

[Heath Druzen]

Hey Gabe, how you doing? Welcome. I'm talking to Gabriel Wrench, a media personality and activist in Idaho. Most people call him Gabe. Okay, great. Gabe has a lot of ideas about how America should change. You said it would probably take a long time, but that you would like to see only Christians be able to run for office. So if you're Jewish, if you're Muslim, if you're atheist, certainly if I had you right, you said that yes, you would support eventually them not being allowed to run for office.

[Doug Wilson]

That's correct. I did say that because Gabe is.

[Heath Druzen]

A proud Christian nationalist.

[Doug Wilson]

I think that the Christian faith is the ideal moral doctrine and principles for a thriving society. And the farther you get away from that, the more in chaos we descend. And so the only way to maintain that, or one of the ways to maintain that, is you have to have people who are running for office who believe that or you're gonna get back into that chaotic decline.

[Heath Druzen]

So I'll tell you straight up, as a Jewish American, I hear that that I can't run for office. Other non Christians can't. And I have to admit it's a little terrifying to me because to me that means a fundamental freedom of mine in this theoretical world is gone.

[Doug Wilson]

Well, I mean, you're saying that in a country where you experience all these immense freedoms that was built on the Christian faith, but where I can run.

[Heath Druzen]

For office right now.

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah, because your worldview is not good for society.

[Heath Druzen]

So Gabe wants biblical law to apply to everyone. That means a lot less democracy, especially for non Christians like me. I should probably pause a moment here to acknowledge the bizarre journey I've been on for the past year. I've Mentioned before that I'm Jewish and it has been surreal to be immersed in this world of Christian nationalism. Don't get me wrong, people like Gabe have been unfailingly polite, which frankly makes it weirder. I'm being politely told I don't deserve key rights. But the reason I'm here listening to Gabe explain why I should lose my rights is not to feel uncomfortable. It's because plenty of people agree with him. Gabe is part of a younger vanguard of Christian nationalists trying to make their vision a reality. And they're spreading their word through popular streaming shows including Gabe's creation, Cross Politic.

[Doug Wilson]

Merry Christmas. Welcome to Crosspolitik. You could not wait for the weekend to end and Cross Politic to begin.

[Heath Druzen]

I mean, Crosspolitik is a mashup of fuzzy fundamentalist religion, politics and drinking.

[Doug Wilson]

So it's kind of faster paced show and you know, a little rough around the edges. So I think that's attractive to a younger generation. Our music, you know, is a little more hard hitting.

[Heath Druzen]

These aren't the megachurch pastors of yore with their faith healing and fire and brimstone. Those guys focused on arena sized church crowds. Gabe and his allies use popular streaming shows and savvy social media. They have followers around the country. They write books extolling the patriarchy and want their followers to get political and get more Christ into government. They love to get into my tribe.

[Doug Wilson]

Your tribe, tribalism and all sorts of nonsense.

[Heath Druzen]

Gabe and his Christian nationalist peers are a whiskey drinking, cigar smoking set that favor expensive boots and well coiffed hair. What are we drinking?

[Doug Wilson]

This is a Glen Fittich 14 year. I don't have to go back. This is from a listener, kind of.

[Heath Druzen]

Hipster theocrats with a distinctly bro motif. And business is good. These guys have popular books, a large podcast and a YouTube channel with about 20,000 subscribers.

[Doug Wilson]

All right, y'all come on back. Come on in, sit down. Squanch in. Squanch is a word from Texas.

[Heath Druzen]

And each year leading Christian nationalist thinkers, as well as rank and file believers gather at a conference.

[Doug Wilson]

As soon as I walked on campus, someone handed me a glass of whiskey and I was like, all right, I'm at the Fight Laugh Feast conference now. It's official. It's official.

[Heath Druzen]

This is Gabe's creation. Fight Laugh Feast is four days of fundamentalist Christians talking to Christians about being Christian.

[Doug Wilson]

One of the gifts that God has given us is to be able to kind of be a place where we could bring like minded Christians together.

[Heath Druzen]

So Jimmy and I went, we Flew across the country to where Gabe and his compatriots were brainstorming a Christian takeover of America. We're in the northern Kentucky countryside.

[James Dawson]

The landscape is rolling and wooded with lots of farms and, of course, distilleries. But we're not here just as an excuse to go bourbon tasting. We're here to attend Fight La Feast. The theme is the politics of the six days of creation. This, of course, is the granddaddy of bible verses. Genesis 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. From there, each day, God creates a new facet of the earth. And on the seventh day, he rests. And yeah, Christian nationalists definitely go with.

[Heath Druzen]

He creation in six days. A gigantic floating zoo with giraffes sticking their heads out the windows, burning bushes, talking donkeys, dragons and unicorns. Resurrection from the dead. Yeah, we believe all of it. We are not embarrassed by any of it. That's Toby Sumter, a pastor and a Christchurch affiliate and one of Gabe's co hosts on the show Crosspolitik. If you're wondering about the dragons, it's Revelations 12:3 and unicorns are actually mentioned throughout the Bible. Fight Laugh Feast is billed as a conference, but it feels more like a festival or this year even a political convention, because everyone we talk to here thinks America should be a Christian nation.

[Doug Wilson]

I want the authority of the Lord Jesus to be confessed by the House and the Senate, and I want the President to sign it.

[James Dawson]

If you recognize that voice, it's Pastor Doug Wilson, who's a featured speaker here. Fundamentalist thinkers have come from around the country to be here. Nearly 1,500 people, according to co founder Gabe Wrench. And that's despite a per person ticket well north of $400. These Christian nationalists are here to put their heads together. They're planning how to take over America for Jesus, and they have ambitious goals. This is Pastor Toby Sumpter again in a speech at the conference.

[Heath Druzen]

And may you see your children's children standing in the gates of our cities, confounding our enemies until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and this land and all the earth is full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters come. We talked to a lot of people at the conference. They didn't pull any punches about who would be in charge in a Christian America. Christians, of course. When you talk to them, though, they're often polite, funny, and lighthearted about some heavy subjects. Gabe has a pithy term for this approach that he emphasizes in his speeches.

[Doug Wilson]

We have to be joyful To Ollie warders, joy is contagious. Being thankful is contagious.

[Heath Druzen]

Jolly as they may be, warriors are at war. And in a war, there is always an enemy. What I started to realize was to them, that enemy was me. Here's Gabe.

[Doug Wilson]

You know, the Bible says that if your enemy needs a drink, give him something to drink.

[Heath Druzen]

Are we your enemy though?

[Doug Wilson]

Well, I'd say you're God's enemy. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you're at odds. You're at war with God.

[Heath Druzen]

Statistically speaking, there's a good chance they think of you as the enemy too. If you're Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist, you'd be out. Christian nationalist strategy isn't just ideological, though, it's practical. Remember, America is rapidly becoming less Christian. Demographics are death for Christian nationalists right now, and finding support from people they want to disenfranchise seems unlikely. And so I think opposition to democracy comes when they realize or when it becomes more clear that democracy may not.

[James Dawson]

Return results that they've historically desired.

[Heath Druzen]

That's Indiana University professor Andrew Whitehead. Andrew studies Christian nationalism and has written two books on the subject. But there's a workaround for not getting support in a democracy. If Christian nationalists get rid of entire voting blocs that might oppose their theocracy. Voting blocs like women, non Christians, anyone in the LGBTQ community that starts to solve the problem. Being in the minority isn't as much of an issue if the majority can't vote. Because ultimately Christian nationalism is focused on gaining, maintaining access to self interested power. And I think that that ultimately draws Christians away from the example and words of Jesus in trying to break down dividing walls of hostility into actually loving our neighbor. And one thing we noticed at Fight, Laugh, Feast, Christian nationalists are trying to create a parallel society where as many goods and services as possible are provided by Christians. Leaders of Christian companies hawk their services on stage. In between speakers, there's Christian crowdfunding and email, Christian Netflix and a publisher putting out Christian children's books. With that, we created an entire universe where our characters are meeting these same ideologies that they're facing nowadays with peer pressure, fake news, cancel culture, gender identity. But we talk from a Christian point of view. This parallel structure, parallel society is trying to pave the way for a Christian America. And these guys are patient.

[Aisha Roscoe]

You're listening to the Sunday Story. After the break, Heath Druzen and I sit down to talk about the road ahead as we enter the next Trump term. We'll be right back.

[Gabriel Wrench]

This message comes from Viking Committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. Discover [e-mail] this message comes from CarMax boldly searching for your next used vehicle. With CarMax, you don't have to settle on anything when it comes to your ride. Instead, steer clear of the ordinary and buy the car that's right for you. Because CarMax makes it easy to stop settling and find a car you'll love today. Start shopping [e-mail] CarMax the way car buying should be this message comes from BetterHelp. Every January brings you 365 blank pages waiting to be filled. What do you want your 2025 story to be? Therapy can help you craft the next chapters with purpose. Better help offers therapy 100% online with a diverse network of over 30,000 therapists worldwide. Visit Better Help H L P.com NPR today to get 10% off your first month.

[Aisha Roscoe]

We're back with Heath Druzen talking about his podcast Extremely American, which takes this deep dive into Christian nationalism and talks to the practitioners of it who are very open opening about it. One thing that I was struck by in the excerpt that we just heard is that they want the nation to be run under this idea of Christianity or Christ. That's where I get a little confused because I'm a Christian and I grew up in a very conservative church. But I guess I want to get some clarity on what these specific Christian nationalists, when they're talking about a Christian government, what does that actually look like to them?

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah, in the view of the Christian nationalists I talk to, it's an extremely narrow view of what Christianity can be. It's a Protestant view of it. And even more than that, really, if you're outside of the sort of Calvinist Baptist umbrella, then they don't really consider you Christian. So if you're Catholic, if you're Mormon, you're still in the out group in their very narrow view of what a Christian America would look like.

[Aisha Roscoe]

The other part of this that I think is, you know, very interesting is that there was like another very pro US and Protestant movement in the 1920s, and that was like the Ku Klux Klan. Right. Where to be American was to be white and to be Protestant. Right. Like that was a part of this. Right. Like that was a part of what it meant. And obviously now the Klan was a terrorist organization. But I just wonder how does whiteness interact with this movement?

[Heath Druzen]

Yeah, it's a pretty white movement. And Doug Wilson, who leads christchurch, he co wrote a pamphlet called Southern Slavery As It Was, which very much whitewashed the evils of slavery and painted the Confederacy as the victims. So there's some serious baggage there, and there's some real infighting and a bit of a civil war going on within the Christian nationalist movement. I've gone kind of down the rabbit hole and seen some people go to some dark places, mostly on the platform X, where there are elements of Christian nationalism who have really embraced antisemitism and racism. They've basically just, like, embraced alternative theories about the Holocaust and slavery. And then there's people kind of. It's a weird thing to say, but, like, the moderate Christian nationalists, they're a little more moderate.

[Aisha Roscoe]

Okay, right.

[Heath Druzen]

And they're. And they're, like, pushing back, like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't like being, quote, unquote, woke. But you guys are going too far and you're putting a stain on the movement. There is a big battle going on inside the movement between the folks who see not being woke as actually being racist and the other people who are like, no, that's not what we're about. You guys. You guys need to get your head straight.

[Aisha Roscoe]

That is an interesting dichotomy there. So, Heath, this is a church in a town in Idaho. You know, they may have created this kind of Christian industrial complex, but, like, how far can their reach really be?

[Heath Druzen]

Um, how far can they reach? The limitation they have is that their ideas are broadly unpopular in America, but they're gaining influence, and they're gaining influence at the top of power. To many, it seems as though the theocrats are now on the doorstep of power. You've got the architect of Project 2025, Russ Vogt, who's been tapped to lead the White House budget office again. So Vogt was actually caught on a secret recording saying he wants to, quote, rehabilitate Christian nationalism. And in the speech last year for a series called the Theology of American Statecraft, he said he wants to use biblical principles to instruct government. So he's been pretty explicit about his plans. Doug Wilson, who leads Christchurch, also spoke at that event. You've got Fox News personality Pete Hegseth, who's been nominated to be Secretary of Defense. Well, he's a member of a church connected to Doug Wilson's Christian nationalist group, and he sends his kids to one of Doug Wilson's schools. And he's talked about his writings, too. So I think we're seeing it right there in that what's sort of ingenious about the influence campaign that Doug Wilson sitting in Moscow, Idaho, is orchestrated is it's this kind of intangible influence, right? What he's created is an entire ecosystem from school to church to entertainment. So if you get sucked in, all you're hearing is that ideology. And I think that's really powerful.

[Aisha Roscoe]

So, I mean, the influence that Christian nationalism has is not theoretical. Trump and his advisors have not called for some of the most extreme things that the Christian nationalists that you talk to, that they're pushing for, for an actual theocracy and things of that nature. But in this next Trump administration, are there any things that you are going to be paying attention to or looking out for just along these lines?

[Heath Druzen]

My home state of Idaho has been sort of a lab for extremism in the last few years. So I think it actually can be kind of instructive as to what might be coming nationally. There's some examples where the legislature has passed laws that have really become blueprints for the rest of the country. Idaho had an early anti trans bill that was used as a blueprint for later anti trans bills that passed in other states. They also recently passed a really restrictive library bill that basically leaves libraries open to lawsuits if they are found to have harmful materials available to minors. Now, the definition of harmful materials is very much in the eye of the beholder and some possibilities there when it comes to books about people of color, about LGBTQ themes, things like that. And so I think what we're seeing in Idaho, it might be indicative of the kinds of pushes we're going to be seeing in this next administration. As far as what Doug Wilson and his allies can achieve in the next four years, that remains to be seen. But they've said they're in a stronger position now after Trump's win.

[Aisha Roscoe]

Heath, thank you so much for bringing this reporting to us. It's very illuminating. So thank you so much.

[Heath Druzen]

Thanks for having me.

[Aisha Roscoe]

Keith Druzen is the host and creator of the Extremely American Podcast series from Boise State Public Radio. You can hear both seasons of of the [e-mail] or wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode of the Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt. Kwesi Lee mastered the episode. Special thanks to Boise State Public Radio, who partnered with Heath on Extremely American, James Dawson, Heath's co reporter and sound designer on the season, and Extremely American editor, Morgan Springer. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer Leanna Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up first is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

[Toby Sumter]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Boll and Branch. Change your sleep with the softness of bole and Branch's 100% organic cotton sheets. Feel the difference with 15% off your first set of sheets at boleandbranch.com with code NPR exclusions apply. See site for details. This message comes from Mint Mobile. From the gas pump to the grocery store, inflation is everywhere. So Mint Mobile is offering premium wireless starting at just $15 a month. To get your new phone plan for just $15, go to mintmobile.com Switch this message comes from Mint Mobile. From the gas pump to the grocery store, inflation is everywhere. So Mint Mobile is offering premium wireless starting at just $15 a month. To get your new phone plan for just $15, go to mintmobile.com switch.