Up First from NPR – Sunday Story: “Where Kids Play”

Host: Ayesha Rascoe
Guest: Eli Stark Elster, Researcher on human society evolution, UC Davis
Date: December 21, 2025
Episode Theme:
Exploring the evolution of where and how children play, comparing unsupervised physical spaces of the past to today’s digital environments, and what this shift means for children’s development, autonomy, and safety.

Episode Overview

The episode dives into how children’s play spaces have shifted from unsupervised, outdoor, physical environments to predominantly digital, online spaces. Host Ayesha Rascoe, herself a parent navigating screen time during the holidays, interviews Eli Stark Elster from UC Davis to unpack the implications of these changes, their roots in historical and societal shifts, and how parents can assess the value and risks of their children's screen use today.

“With all those screens and all of these online games, I do kind of worry—what are the implications of this? What is the safety of this in real life?” —Ayesha Rascoe (00:45)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The History of Children’s Independence in Play

Timestamps: 03:48–05:01

• Historical Norms: Prior to the 1970s, and largely throughout human history, children experienced significant autonomy and independence in their play, often forming "independent peer cultures" away from adults.

  “You find that kids are generally afforded a really high degree of independence and autonomy... making their own separate little groups away from the adults.” —Eli Stark Elster (04:20)

• Recent Decline: Since the early 1970s, there’s been a sharp drop in unsupervised childhood independence—this coincides with increased urbanization, reliance on cars, and fears about traffic and stranger danger.

2. Why Supervised Play Increased in Physical Spaces

Timestamps: 05:01–05:41

• Urbanization: More people living in cities means less safe space for unsupervised outdoor play, physical proximity to friends is reduced.
• Parental Fears: Concerns about traffic and stranger danger contribute to increased supervision.

3. The Digital Shift—Supervision Doesn’t Translate Online

Timestamps: 05:41–06:58

• Digital Autonomy: There’s relatively little adult oversight in children’s online spaces compared to physical ones.

  “Kids are using digital space as sort of the last frontier to get away from us.” —Eli Stark Elster (06:34)

• Children’s Motivation: The migration to digital spaces isn’t just about screen addiction or tech company manipulation—it’s an extension of children’s innate motivation to seek autonomy and form peer cultures out of adult view.

4. Importance of Autonomous Spaces for Children

Timestamps: 07:25–08:12

• Mental Health Correlation: Declines in childhood autonomy parallel declines in mental health measures; greater independent mobility links to greater well-being (referencing UNICEF's Innocenti study).

  “We see a very stark trend that different measures of mental health among children begin to decline at around the same time their autonomy becomes more and more restricted.” —Eli Stark Elster (07:34)

5. What Are Kids Doing Online Together?

Timestamps: 08:12–10:22

• Game Comparisons: Contrasts between games like Minecraft (open-ended, creative, collaborative, one-time purchase) and Fortnite (designed with addictive loops, encourages in-game spending).

  “Minecraft is... an open-ended exploratory game where you can collaborate with your friends... Fortnite... has essentially built it like a casino.” —Eli Stark Elster (08:38)

• Playing Together: Many online games mimic older forms of play like using dolls or action figures, but in a digital space.

6. Is Virtual Play Different Than Physical Play?

Timestamps: 10:22–11:18

• Not Necessarily Inferior: The key indicator of good play—virtual or physical—is whether kids have freedom to make decisions, explore, and spend time with peers.

  “If the answer... is yes, my sense is that the play is probably just as good regardless of the domain.” —Eli Stark Elster (10:40)

• *Physical autonomy is hard to reclaim; digital alternatives are sometimes necessary for modern kids.

7. Good vs. Bad Screen Time

Timestamps: 11:18–12:36

• Quality Matters: Mindless scrolling (e.g., TikTok) is likely harmful; collaborative, creative play (e.g., Minecraft) is beneficial.

  “The key question that parents should probably ask is, are my kids getting space to be independent from me, to spend time with their friends unsupervised and to explore in ways they are determining on their own?” —Eli Stark Elster (12:14)

• Screen Time as a Metric: Lumping all screen time together is like measuring food’s effect on health without distinguishing among types of food.

8. Balancing Autonomy and Safety Online

Timestamps: 12:36–14:17

• Games as Double-Edged Swords: Platforms like Roblox offer autonomy but also feature manipulative, money-driven incentives.

  “It is good for the independence of kids that... they can sort of build whatever they want. And it is bad... that the company making this game has added all of these incentives that try to coerce them.” —Eli Stark Elster (13:29)

• Predator Fears: Online threats are often overestimated—just like in the physical world, most inappropriate approaches come from people kids know, not strangers.

9. What Makes Kids Safe—and What Do We Trade Off?

Timestamps: 14:17–15:17

• Short-Term vs. Long-Term: Over-supervision may keep kids safer in the short term but could hamper their ability to navigate conflict and independent decision-making as adults.

  “In many cases, the measures that we think we're taking to make them safer in the short term are probably harmful in the long term.” —Eli Stark Elster (15:11)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the motivations behind digital play:

  “Kids are using digital space as sort of the last frontier to get away from us.” —Eli Stark Elster (06:34)

• On evaluating ‘screen time’:

  “That’s really a bit like trying to measure, let's say, the effect of food on physical health.” —Eli Stark Elster (12:23)

• On parental trade-offs:

  “In the short term they want to keep their kids safe... In the long term though, that might not be such a good thing for the safety.” —Eli Stark Elster (14:39)

• On contemporary parental frustrations:

  “That Robux, yeah, they take my money a lot. But let's don't talk about that, let's talk about something else.” —Ayesha Rascoe (13:14)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [03:48] – The historical norm of unsupervised play
• [05:03] – Urbanization and parental fear changing play
• [05:51] – Why digital environments are less supervised
• [06:49] – The evolutionary drive for peer-only zones
• [07:31] – Independent zones and child mental health
• [08:30] – Comparing Minecraft and Fortnite
• [11:24] – Not all screen time is equal
• [12:45] – Roblox: freedom vs. corporate incentives
• [14:22] – The real meaning of safety for kids

Summary

This episode challenges the narrative that kids’ migration to digital spaces is inherently harmful. Instead, Eli Stark Elster reframes online environments as new venues for children’s timeless need for autonomy and unsupervised peer interaction—needs that are now less met in the physical world due to urbanization, safety concerns, and increased supervision. He encourages parents to consider what kids actually do online (creative, collaborative play vs. passive consumption), and not just total “screen time,” when assessing value and risk. Ultimately, Elster argues for a nuanced approach: protecting kids from clear online harms while accepting and facilitating the independent experiences that help children grow into resilient adults.

For further details, listen to NPR’s Up First episode “Where Kids Play” from December 21, 2025.