Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Using AI at Work: AI in the Workplace & Generative AI for Business Leaders
Host: Chris Daigle
Guest: Peter Swimm, Founder of Toilville
Episode: 69 – Using AI at Work with Peter Swimm: From SaaS to Conversational Workflows
Date: September 15, 2025

In this episode, Chris Daigle and Peter Swimm explore the future of work powered by AI, focusing on the evolution from traditional SaaS applications to personalized conversational workflows. Peter shares insights from his 25-year tech journey, practical experiments with voice-based AI, and a vision for how business leaders and teams can create more flexible, efficient, and user-centric workflows leveraging generative AI—without massive tech investments or steep learning curves.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Peter Swimm’s Background and Mission

• Career Overview: 25 years in tech, working in data centers, customer support, Fortune 500 and “Fortune 5” companies, with a continuous thread: using computers and AI for smarter work.
• Conversational AI as a Unifier: Peter has focused on making tech more human-centered—rooted in “conversational AI” and workflow automation.
• Founding Toilville: Peter’s company helps SMBs and mid-market organizations implement AI-powered tools and workflows, aiming to make advanced capabilities accessible without enterprise-size tech teams.

2. State and Trajectory of Conversational AI

• Definition and Perception:
  • Peter: “When I describe it, people always start to make a face—because it’s like when you call the bank and it wants you to explain your problem…but for a long time it’s been very bad.” (03:50)
• Recent Advances:
  • Major progress via OpenAI, Google, and others—conversational AI is “almost good” now, which is transformative after years of unreliable experiences.
• Business Impact:
  • Big unlock for business, not just in support but in sales and productivity—especially as AI gets closer to human-like understanding.

3. Real-World AI Experiment: A Week Using Only Voice AI

• The Experiment:
  • Peter spent a full week conducting all his work exclusively via voice-based conversational AI.
  • Early Pain, Later Gains: “It was wild and painful and scary until I realized a certain way to do it...I downshifted my expectations and it was more like co-working with a friend.” (05:30)
• Key Takeaways:
  • The value isn’t in asking AI to do everything, but in getting support for iterative, idea-driven, collaborative work—like a second brain for planning or code review.
  • “AI's not going to do your work for you. It's going to allow you to do things like whiteboarding, plotting your novel...do it agnostic of tools.” (08:43)
• Workflow Evolution:
  • Developed tools for summarizing chats, managing tasks, and surfacing only relevant communications (“apps are dead”).

4. Building Modular, Personalized Workflows

• From Many Scripts to a Toolkit:
  • The experiment led to 3,000 scripts—quickly sifted down to ~12 core tools that automate and customize daily routines.
  • “I have a concept of rubrics (our processes) and ruses (edge cases)...every edge case tells us something about the inflexibility of our rubric.” (13:23)
• AI-Powered “Secretary” & Context Management:
  • AI checks emails, notifications, and helps set and maintain focus—dramatically reducing cognitive load and digital “noise”.
  • “Now I don't have to doom scroll...my system is watching and it's instructed to shut down unless there's a fire.” (13:23)

5. The Future: Local Models, Total Customization, and the “End of Apps”

• Moving Local:
  • With Apple and others pushing AI-enabled PCs and APIs, running powerful models locally is accessible—“acceptable for probably 99% of the population to do work today.” (18:07)
• Personalization Paradox:
  • General-purpose assistants from big tech hit a ceiling—true value comes from tools that are deeply customized to individual users and organizations.
  • “That's a non-starter for a lot of people—I'm not uploading my life to Microsoft or Google...I'm building that on my computer.” (19:04)
• Vision for the End of Apps:
  • Imagine asking an assistant to build a tool custom to your problem, rather than relying on generic, feature-bloated SaaS products.
  • “Wouldn’t it be great if I could talk to Excel Copilot and just tell it: remove all your buttons and only add them when we need them?” (26:45)

6. Organizational Impacts and Lean Teams

• Business Efficiency:
  • AI empowers lean, highly flexible teams—contract-based, modular, and non-geographically limited.
  • Example: Peter’s company operates with a tiny core team, amplified by AI and automation, allowing multiple concurrent contracts and a more sustainable business lifestyle.
• The Human Element:
  • “People use tech not because they like tech, it’s because they want to solve a problem quicker…If we come to a point where the reason you went to Google for the first time can make an app for you...” (23:04)

7. Insights for Business Leaders and Executives

• Non-Technical Adoption:
  • Most AI capability gains come from changing how people work and how they imagine workflows, not from deep technical skills.
  • “You want to get good at using AI, use AI.” (11:46)
• Advice on Tech Adoption:
  • Ask AI what tools it would use to solve a real problem, rather than just how to perform steps.
  • “Start searching for how would I do the thing I want to do without brand loyalty, and you'll find yourself making the same kind of connections and tooling.” (44:28)
• Cultural and Structural Changes:
  • The C-level must rethink value chains—less middle management, less rigid process, focus on results and knowledge work.
  • “Now my tooling will just auto-convert on the fly…I can hire someone who speaks a language I don’t…It changes the whole paradigm.” (38:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Conversational AI’s Progress:
  “Being almost good after being awfully bad for so long is such a huge disruptive thing in the industry…” – Peter Swimm (03:50)

• On Real-World AI Experiment:
  “It was wild and painful and scary until I realized a certain way to do it...I downshifted my expectations and it was more like…co-working with a friend.” – Peter Swimm (05:30)

• On the End of Traditional Apps:
  “Apps are dead, right? Because the concept of the application is building a better mousetrap, but everyone wants their mousetrap.” – Peter Swimm (09:31)

• On Lean Teams Empowered by AI:
  “I can take their 8 or 12 hours a week that they give me and make it stretch…I can get engagements going…It just feels like a more natural business.” – Peter Swimm (35:17)

• On Personal Technology Ownership:
  “I’m not gonna upload my digital ID to Microsoft and Google…They don’t have a great track record.” – Peter Swimm (19:04)

• On Shifting Paradigms:
  “You want to get good at using AI, use AI.” – Chris Daigle (11:46)
  “People use tech not because they like tech, it’s because they want to solve a problem quicker.” – Peter Swimm (23:04)

Key Timestamps

• [02:05] Peter Swimm’s background, career path, and focus on conversational AI
• [03:50] Defining conversational AI and why it’s only now becoming disruptive
• [05:30] Experience running business solely through voice AI for a week; reframing expectations for AI collaboration
• [13:23] Emergence of modular tools: rubrics (processes) and ruses (edge cases)
• [18:07] Running AI models locally; benchmarking current hardware; privacy implications
• [23:04] Vision for the end of traditional apps; task-centric customization rather than app-centric work
• [33:24] Founding Toilville, bridging the gap for SMBs adopting AI
• [34:55] Operating a lean, agile team with AI as a multiplier
• [40:03] Real-world client stories—how AI can simplify workflows and sometimes eliminate the need for certain tools
• [43:46] Non-technical business adoption advice and unlocking tooling without technical depth
• [44:28] Toilville contact info and philosophical summary: “People make it better.”

Final Thoughts

Peter Swimm’s journey and experiments showcase how AI, when leveraged as a personal, conversational partner, can radically reshape business operations, tool selection, and the very notion of “apps” at work. His practical approach offers a blueprint for both tech and non-technical leaders: start with your real needs, collaborate with AI persistently, and focus on adaptable, personalized workflows—putting people, not platforms, at the center.

Learn more or connect:

• Visit PeopleMakeItBetter.com
• Join Peter’s LinkedIn office hours
• Experiment: “Instead of asking your question, ask AI what you’re trying to do and what tools it would use to do it.” (44:28)

(All timestamps in MM:SS format; quotes are verbatim excerpts from the episode.)