Episode 4: Outlaw Country

Summary

Podcast Summary: Valley of Shadows, Episode 4 – "Outlaw Country"

Podcast: Valley of Shadows
Host: Produced by Pushkin Industries, reported by Betsy Shepherd & Hayley Fox
Episode Release: January 26, 2026
Main Theme:
Episode 4, “Outlaw Country,” uncovers how the search for missing LA Sheriff’s Deputy Jon Aujay led investigators deep into the Mojave Desert’s methamphetamine underworld, exposing the role of violent outlaw biker gangs and corruption within the sheriff’s department. Through new tips, exclusive interviews, and harrowing witness accounts, investigative reporters Betsy Shepherd and Hayley Fox piece together a landscape where lawlessness reigns and trust is in dangerously short supply.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Wild West: Antelope Valley’s Lawlessness

• Backdrop: Antelope Valley is likened to the “old west”—remote, wild, and a hotbed for meth production and violent crime (02:04–05:03).
• Notable Quotes:
  • “It was a little bit like the old west in a way.” – Darren Hager, former detective (02:24)
  • “This is a place where mayhem, theft, and murder are the commonplaces instead of the unusual.” – Vince Burton, retired LASD Sergeant (04:55)

2. Outlaw Bikers: The Vagos’ Meth Empire

• Outlaw Culture: The Vagos biker gang is a driving force in local drug violence, having allegedly supplanted other gangs and developed a reputation for murder (05:31–06:17).
• Culture & Initiation:
  • Biker gangs operate with their own codes, earning patches for deeds from violence to killing cops (05:31–06:17, 29:14–30:15).
  • Their culture is compared to a violent, twisted version of the Boy/Girl Scouts (29:59).
• Notable Quotes:
  • “The Vagos chased the Hell’s Angels out of that valley... almost every suspect named in the disappearance of this deputy has some connection to the Vagos motorcycle group.” – Darren Hager (05:58)

3. The Meth Trade: “Breaking Bad” in the Desert

• Scale and Purity: Meth in Antelope Valley mirrors “Breaking Bad,” with 97% purity and massive labs (11:34–11:58).
• The Untouchables: Major traffickers are untouchable due to inside connections—cases repeatedly thrown out (12:23–12:33).
• Insight into Operations:
  • Outlaw bikers supplied meth labs. The “crank” nickname comes from hiding drugs in motorcycle parts (31:47–32:25).
• Notable Quotes:
  • “If you change the names, it’s the same exact thing.” – Darren Hager, on Breaking Bad comparisons (11:42)
  • “We talk to probably thousands of people on the street, and you gotta put that link chart together... every time you talk to one person, that person’s going to give you a whole dozen other names.” – Darren Hager (21:14)

4. Corruption and Leakages within Law Enforcement

• Informant ‘Keith’ and Internal Risk:
  • Keith, a new informant, warns Hager about dirty deputies with direct lines to traffickers (13:13–14:48).
• Turning to the Feds:
  • Hager is advised by his superiors: “You can’t trust anybody in here. Take it to the feds.” (15:29)
  • Operation Silent Thunder is founded, becoming a joint DEA-LASD operation that moves in secret (16:24–17:08).
• Infiltration:
  • Secrecy is paramount, with Hager going undercover and relocating to safe houses (17:27–17:40).

5. The Aujay Case: Biker Connections and Witness Intimidation

• Key Evidence from Witnesses:
  • New informants claim Aujay stumbled onto a meth lab and was killed; names like Tom Hinkle (“God”, cold-hearted killer) and Richard Carroll surface (19:11–19:46).
  • Eyewitness ‘Matt’ claims he saw Aujay at the Punchbowl with bikers just before disappearance, but then recants—likely due to fear (24:15–25:09).
• Disappearances & Threat:
  • Rodney Katsif, a local with underworld ties and potential evidence, vanishes as well, his car found burned—a pattern echoing Aujay's own disappearance (25:45–26:00).
  • “If you ratted or they thought you were gonna rat, or you got involved in their business... you’re done. They didn’t take a chance.” – Darren Hager (26:28)

6. Rampant Fear: No Trust Between Cops, Public, and Witnesses

• Witness Hesitation:
  • Witnesses routinely back out or won’t talk, citing “dirty cops” and fear (38:00–39:25).
  • “They didn’t know who to trust... so they say, I ain’t saying shit, I just want to stay alive...” – Larry Brandenburg (38:14)
• Crucial Missed Opportunities:
  • Potentially vital informants like 'Tina,' who claimed knowledge of Aujay's burial site, never follow through due to safety fears (38:25–40:41).
  • “It was like searching for a needle in a haystack out there in that desert, in that mountain.” – Larry Brandenburg (40:41)

7. Bikers and Dirty Deputies: The Outlaw Pigs and Law Enforcement Overlap

• Blurred Lines:
  • Even local deputies form a biker club, the “Outlaw Pigs,” with customs mirroring the outlaw gangs (33:05–33:37).
  • Some deputies have rumored patches and serve as lookouts during biker crimes (33:54–34:36).
  • “There was even a deputy rumored to be a patched member... he even served as a lookout for the gang. While on duty and in uniform.” – Betsy Shepherd (33:37)
• Chummy Relationships:
  • Sgt. Burton describes calling biker leaders to “handle” wayward members, and cops being on call for Hells Angels or Vagos associates (34:04–36:14).

8. Big Rick: Meth Kingpin and Murder Suspect

• Emerging as a Linchpin:
  • Big Rick, Vagos Sergeant-at-Arms, is named by multiple witnesses as key to both meth trade and Aujay’s disappearance (39:25–41:43).
  • Recorded jailhouse calls reveal Big Rick worried about police finding a specific gun: “You know what would happen if they found that gun? I’d be looking at the death penalty...” (43:01)
  • Hager connects this panic to the possibility that Big Rick killed Aujay, a cop—the one crime that could mean death penalty (43:34–43:55).

9. The New Lead: Was a Dirty Deputy Involved?

• Final segment introduces the suspicion that a fellow deputy, Rick Ingalls, may have collaborated with the meth operation and could be connected to Aujay’s fate.
  • “The word on the street among a close circle of drug dealers has been that Deputy Ingalls has been involved with drugs for a very long time.” – Narrator (47:26)
  • “Do I believe Ingalls is a dirty cop? Absolutely.” – Betsy Shepherd (48:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Valley:
  • "But this lawless frontier isn’t just a trope in fictionalized Westerns. It’s also the backdrop of John Ajay’s disappearance… where cowboys and outlaws haven’t given it up." – Narrator (05:03)
• On Outlaw Biker Violence:
  • “These people were killers. They’ll kill you in a minute if they think it’s going to save them.” – Larry Brandenburg (06:52)
• On Law Enforcement’s Delicate Position:
  • “The task force will operate in a vacuum without the knowledge or help of local deputies.” – Narrator (16:41)
• On the Stakes:
  • “We just need that one person to say, ‘I was there. This is what happened. It wasn’t a suicide... He was murdered at the punch bowl.’” – Darren Hager (44:41)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|-------------| | 02:04 | Antelope Valley as the “old west” – wild lawlessness scene set | | 05:31 | Intro to the Vagos and outlaw biker culture | | 11:34 | Hager describes “Breaking Bad” scale meth labs | | 13:13 | Informant Keith and revelation of dirty deputies | | 16:24 | Operation Silent Thunder formation and necessity for secrecy | | 19:11 | Confirmation from new witness on Aujay encountering meth lab | | 24:15 | Eyewitness ‘Matt’ claims to have seen Aujay before his disappearance | | 25:45 | Rodney Katsif’s disappearance, car found burned | | 29:14 | Explanation of biker patches and criminal symbolism | | 33:05 | Sheriff’s deputies form “Outlaw Pigs” biker club | | 39:25 | ‘Tina’ alleges knowledge of Aujay’s grave, names Big Rick | | 41:43 | Big Rick’s connection with ephedrine supply and witness claims of murder | | 43:01 | Big Rick's incriminating jailhouse phone call about a gun | | 47:26 | Introduction of suspicions against Deputy Rick Ingalls |

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Flow & Tone

The episode’s mood is tense, urgent, and laced with dry humor—the hosts blend noir-esque banter (“You really do feel like you’re in an old saloon or something”) and hard truths about lawlessness and fear. They maintain curiosity and skepticism, pushing reluctant witnesses for answers while mapping a web of intimidation and betrayal.

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Episode Takeaways

• The search for Jon Aujay evolves into a deep probe into the notorious Vagos biker gang and the meth epidemic in rural California, illuminating rampant violence, corruption, and blurred lines between law enforcement and criminal enterprise.
• Key suspects (notably Big Rick and possibly a corrupt deputy) emerge, but pervasive fear and witness intimidation continue to stall the investigation.
• Episode concludes with strong evidence that the outlaw bikers—and possibly dirty cops—know more about Aujay’s fate than they have ever let on.

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For tips regarding Deputy Jon Aujay’s disappearance, listeners are encouraged to contact 213-262-9889 or email [e-mail].

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End of Summary – Valley of Shadows, Episode 4: Outlaw Country

Transcript

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

There are moments in each of our lives that seem to change everything. An unexpected diagnosis, the sudden end of a relationship, the loss of a job. As our lives veer off course, it can feel like time is dividing into a before and an after. I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist, and my new book, the Other side of who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans, is all about how we navigate these inflection points. The Other side of Change pairs singular real life stories that with scientific insights to help us find meaning in the tumult of change. What if we saw the hardest moments in our lives not simply as something to endure, but as an opportunity to reimagine who we can be? I'm thrilled to share that Booklist gave the Other side of Change one of its coveted starred reviews, saying, quote, it's impossible not to be moved. The Other side of Change is out now. Get your copy today wherever you like to buy books at Charmin we heard you shouldn't talk about going to the bathroom in public, so we decided to sing about it.

[Betsy Shepherd]

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[John Carr]

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[Betsy Shepherd]

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[Dr. Maya Shankar]

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[Narrator / Host]

Pushkin subscribe to Pushkin to hear the entire season of Valley of Shadows ad free starting January 12th. You'll also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks, and early ad free listening from your favorite Pushkin hosts and authors. Find Pushkin plus on the Valley of Shadows show page on Apple Podcast or at Pushkin FM plus and thanks for your support.

[Betsy Shepherd]

This series includes content that may not be suitable for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Previously on Valley of Shadows. At the time, the Antelope Valley was a cesspool. It was a desert. It was known for manufacturing methamphetamine, so people were getting busted left and right.

[Darren Hager]

It was a little bit like the.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Old west in a way.

[Larry Brandenburg]

I mean, this is a very unusual, strange place. Rick Ingalls was a resident deputy. I want to show you the area he lived in. He knew this area probably better than anybody.

[Narrator / Host]

Tom Hinkle brings it up to my boyfriend, tells him RJ was on a jog, ran across something he shouldn't have ran across and he had to be.

[Vince Burton]

Taken care of, meaning he was killed.

[Narrator / Host]

There's A musical road in the Antelope Valley that plays the Lone Ranger theme song every time a car drives across it. And we're headed there to hear it for ourselves.

[Betsy Shepherd]

So it looks like the musical road was the first of its kind in the United States.

[Narrator / Host]

Wow.

[Betsy Shepherd]

There's like a rumble strip and the grooves are spaced out in a series of pitches.

[Narrator / Host]

You gotta hit the musical road just right. A steady 55 miles an hour.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Are you comfortable? Like going a full 55?

[Narrator / Host]

I mean, am I comfortable only going 55?

[Betsy Shepherd]

Is that actually.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Yes.

[Narrator / Host]

But in the spirit of Antelope Valley speed demons, I crank it up to 65 miles an hour.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Okay. We're out in the desert. We are surrounded by scrubland.

[Narrator / Host]

The sun is on the horizon.

[Betsy Shepherd]

We're on our horse, galloping into the distance.

[Narrator / Host]

And the Lone Ranger rides again.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Exhilarating.

[Narrator / Host]

The end of that really does slap, like, super cowboyish.

[Darren Hager]

Yeah.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Host]

That part I legit felt like I was a mother. The Lone Ranger was first dreamed up in the 1930s for old timey radio listeners.

[Betsy Shepherd]

A moment later, a thunder of hoofs and silver with a Lone Ranger in.

[Vince Burton]

The saddle sped into the night.

[Narrator / Host]

The masked cowboy restores order in an otherwise lawless place. The Wild West.

[Betsy Shepherd]

This is a raw frontier.

[Vince Burton]

You must take a realistic attitude. This is a place where mayhem, theft and murder are the commonplace inst of the unusual.

[Narrator / Host]

But this lawless frontier isn't just a trope in fictionalized Westerns. It's also the backdrop of John Ajay's disappearance in the Antelope Valley, where cowboys and outlaws haven't given it up.

[Darren Hager]

A car would race down the road shooting guns out the window.

[Narrator / Host]

Retired Captain Mike Bauer.

[Darren Hager]

And we didn't think anything of it because we said Antelope Valley. Kind of the Old West.

[Narrator / Host]

But the gunslingers riding rough, shod over these desert towns ride iron horses. Outlaw bikers travel in packs across the valley. Their vests are emblazoned with names like the Hells Angels, the Mongols and the Vagos. They wear patches to showcase their feats, from using various drugs to acts of violence, and even for killing a cop.

[Darren Hager]

The Vagos chased the Hell's Angels out of that valley and the Vagos took over. And almost every suspect who was named in the disappearance of this deputy has some connections to the Vagos motorcycle group.

[Narrator / Host]

Was John Ajay one of their trophy kills? That's what Brandenburg wants to know when he hears about some local bikers who've been bragging about Ajay's murder.

[Larry Brandenburg]

Why would outlaw biker gang these big badass crooks take credit for killing a cop if they didn't. Because then when it's found out, then they're nothing but a bunch of lying punks that are taking credit for shit they don't do.

[Narrator / Host]

But witnesses run for the hills when Brandenburg approaches them. No one is willing to talk. The bikers tend to have that effect on people.

[Larry Brandenburg]

They're scared for their life and rightfully so. These people were killers. They're real killers. They'll kill you in a minute if they think it's going to save them.

[Narrator / Host]

The outlaw biker world is hard to break into and without access. Brandenburg's investigation hits a roadblock until he hears about a hotshot young narcotics detective who's been trying to put the squeeze on the meth trade in the Antelope Valley. But enforcing the law in these parts is a dangerous undertaking. I'm Haley Fox.

[Betsy Shepherd]

I'm Betsy shepherd and this is Valley of Shadows. Episode 4 outlaw country.

[Narrator / Host]

No trespassing, no hunting, no motorcycles. Check, check, check.

[Betsy Shepherd]

We're on our way to meet Darren Hager, former narcotics detective for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

[Narrator / Host]

He sees us.

[Betsy Shepherd]

We'Ve been granted entry. Haley and I pass through a security fence and make our way down a dirt road to Hager's house. And we have Mr. Hager in his full cowboy regalia. There he is. Hat, boots and buckle. Must be him. Hager's 6ft tall, he's got a horseshoe mustache and a barrel shaped chest. It's very easy to picture him as a sheriff's deputy, but these days he's a cattle rancher. Can we start off by Nope?

[Darren Hager]

No.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Alright, let's go back to la. Okay, nice to see you.

[Darren Hager]

Bye.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Hager likes to mess with us, but he agrees to a sit down interview. He leads us into a dark wood paneled room covered in old neon signs and shows us his home bar, which is apparently a requirement for all retired sheriff's deputies. Haker's bar is stocked with every kind of whiskey you could possibly want and no other type of liquor.

[Darren Hager]

I built the bar. Just try to make it as rustic and western as I could.

[Betsy Shepherd]

You really do feel like you're in an old saloon or something.

[Darren Hager]

That's the whole purpose.

[Betsy Shepherd]

And just when we thought the vibes couldn't get any more. Yellowstone, we notice a big ass taxidermied buffalo head mounted to the wall.

[Darren Hager]

The one on the wall was our herd bull. He got pneumonia so we mounted his head.

[Betsy Shepherd]

What made you want to farm buffalo? Like that's a real challenge.

[Darren Hager]

It was Larry Brandenburg's idea. The homicide detective.

[Betsy Shepherd]

That's right. Darren Hager and Larry Brandenburg ran a buffalo farm together. They became friends in 2000 and then business partners in 2003. And the thing that first brought them together was the John Ajay case. It's a long story. So we pull up stools at Hager's bar. He pours himself a glass of whiskey and starts from the beginning, like the very beginning.

[Darren Hager]

As a little kid, I always wanted to become police officer. Just like any normal kid, either a cowboy or police officer, right?

[Betsy Shepherd]

I like to think of myself as a pretty normal kid, but I can't say I ever wanted to be a cowboy or a cop. Hager. Let's cut from a different cloth, though. He went to the sheriff's academy pretty much right out of high school. And by his early 20s, he was working patrol in the Antelope Valley.

[Darren Hager]

They put me into a patrol car, but I was just a hook and booking machine. That's just what I like.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Hager was a hook and booking machine, as in he made a lot of arrests.

[Darren Hager]

I was number. Either number one or number two in stats for felony arrests out of the entire station. Every time.

[Betsy Shepherd]

We ask if he acquired any nicknames at the lasd, you know, like the Enforcer, the Hammer, something tough. Higar's reluctant to answer, but we keep prodding.

[Darren Hager]

Nobody likes you two. They called me Pee Wee because I looked like Pee Wee Herman. Are you happy? I'm glad you guys are happy.

[Betsy Shepherd]

These days, Hager's more of a John Wayne type. But back when he was still Pee Wee, he slowly worked his way from patrol deputy to Narcotics. And the Antelope Valley where he was assigned was the mother load.

[Narrator / Host]

You know, I think a lot of people picture Breaking Bad whenever you're talking about making meth in the desert. Can you give us a reality check?

[Darren Hager]

If you change the names, it's the same exact thing. The meth we were receiving was like super crystal clear meth, but it was 97% pure meth. It was top of the line, Breaking Bad method.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Hager's not just picking people up for meth, though, because the drug trade is driving up all kinds of violent crime.

[Darren Hager]

We were number one in homicides in Los Angeles County. So, yeah, crime was huge.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Over time, Hager makes detective. But even in his new role, he can't seem to hook any of the big fish. The traffickers who are flooding the streets with meth.

[Darren Hager]

These are guys we could never touch even if we arrested him. All the cases got kicked out and that's how we came up with the name Untouchables.

[Betsy Shepherd]

But then, in late 1999, Hager lands a case that will change the course of his career. It starts with a domestic abuse call that escalates when the suspect barricades himself inside his home.

[Darren Hager]

I was able to serve a search warrant on him and found a bunch of stolen property. Methamphetamine. And was able to tie it back to one of the individuals that I knew was big in the processing of methamphetamine.

[Betsy Shepherd]

With the charges combined, the suspect is looking at major prison time.

[Darren Hager]

And he finally came to me, goes, I don't want to go to jail for 12 years. What will it take to get you off my ass?

[Betsy Shepherd]

And that's when this suspect offers to become a police informant. We're going to call him Keith.

[Darren Hager]

I go, what do you got? He goes, I will give you dealers in the methamphetamine world out here that you've never touched before. And that started the ball rolling.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Keith is willing to name names to help Hager bust the area's meth giants. But first, Keith needs some assurance no one will ever find out. He claims there's a lot of powerful people involved, dangerous people, like the bikers who do not fuck around.

[Darren Hager]

The outlaw bikers were big out there. If you crossed them, there was a guaranteed death. There was going to be murder.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Hager realizes he's in over his head, so he kicks the info up to his supervisor.

[Darren Hager]

I go, look, this is, like, above my pay scale.

[Larry Brandenburg]

This is huge.

[Darren Hager]

This is way huge. And it got even bigger.

[Betsy Shepherd]

His supervisor calls a meeting with a few other detectives. Hager tells them everything discussed must stay in the room. But less than 24 hours later, Hager gets a call from Keith, his informant.

[Darren Hager]

He goes, who did you tell? It's already on the street. I'm talking to you.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Keith manages to convince people he's no snitch. But the problem remains. The dealers have a direct line to someone in the sheriff's department. Keith says he knows a number of dirty deputies.

[Darren Hager]

He said, look, if you go forward with this, Deputy X, Y, and Z are going to know exactly what's going on. So you got to protect me.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Hager doesn't know what to think, but it's his job to reassure Keith.

[Darren Hager]

I had no information confirmation that deputies were dirty, but for the safety of my informant, I don't want them injured. That's your main goal, is you never want an informant hurt.

[Betsy Shepherd]

And that's why we're using aliases for Keith and Other informants to protect their identities. Hager sends Keith's concerns up the flagpole to the second in command at the Narco bureau.

[Darren Hager]

He goes, don't talk to anybody else. Take it to the feds. Take it straight to dea. He goes, you can't trust anybody in here.

[Narrator / Host]

That's what Hager does. He meets with the Drug Enforcement Administration, tells them about the meth trade in the Antelope Valley, the untouchables, the leaks in the department. And the Feds agree to help under one condition.

[Darren Hager]

We'll work your dope case, but we're not going to work any deputy personnel that you have.

[Narrator / Host]

So the DEA and the Sheriff's Department come to an agreement. It'll be a joint effort. The DEA will lead the charge on the meth trafficking investigation and the LASD will handle claims of police misconduct and crimes outside of narcotics. The Feds ask Hager to be their local guide because this is an unusual place and he knows it.

[Darren Hager]

Well, I couldn't tell you how many police pursuits and chases we had through the desert because it's pitch black out there and you're running over rattlesnakes and jackrabbits trying to get the bad guy. And they just feel they're gonna get away. So I got sworn in as a federal agent for them. Even though I was still LA County.

[Narrator / Host]

Deputy Sheriff from the start, there's a huge emphasis on discretion to protect against leaks. The task force will operate in a vacuum without the knowledge or help of local deputies.

[Darren Hager]

We gotta keep this quiet. Not just that I was going undercover, but quiet internally, like nobody needs to know. That's where the name Operation Silent Thunder came up.

[Narrator / Host]

Operation Silent Thunder. Almost overnight, Hager's life is turned upside down.

[Darren Hager]

I was taken completely out of the station. I wasn't allowed at the station. I couldn't drive my vehicle to the station. I couldn't talk to any more deputies at the station.

[Narrator / Host]

He grows a beard to disguise his appearance and he's relocated to an abandoned fire station where he and five DEA agents set up offices. It's one of many safe houses used by the task force.

[Darren Hager]

They were just old abandoned houses that we had keys to, and several of those so we could swap different houses so people weren't tailing us and seeing what we were doing.

[Narrator / Host]

Despite all Silent Thunder's efforts to keep the lowest of profiles, word of Hager's star informant reaches Homicide Detective Larry Brandenburg.

[Darren Hager]

He knew that my informant was involved in this meth trade, so he wanted to ask him if he knew certain things. About what's going on in the Antelope Valley.

[Narrator / Host]

Hager bristles at first. He's mad that word of his informant is making the rounds. But he softens when Brandenburg says he's chasing a lead related to the disappearance of John Ajay. Because Hager knew Ajay. He worked with him in Bosco a number of times. So Hager hears Brandenburg out and he.

[Darren Hager]

Told me what he was learning. I go, you're the homicide detective. But I sure don't believe it.

[Narrator / Host]

Up until now, Hager had heard little about Ajay's case, just that he vanished in the punch bowl. So he's surprised by the murder allegations. But he agrees to let Brandenburg talk to Keith at a clandestine location.

[Darren Hager]

You get out there in the middle of the desert, you make sure no one's around. You're constantly looking out the windows.

[Narrator / Host]

They meet in a remote part of the Mojave Desert and pile into an unmarked police van. Hager makes the introduction and the informant starts talking.

[Larry Brandenburg]

He said he had been hearing things from drug dealers, that Jay was off duty and he came across a meth lab.

[Narrator / Host]

Brandenburg has heard this before, but this has added confirmation.

[Larry Brandenburg]

And the drug dealers killed him because he came across his lab and they didn't want it exposed. He can go to jail and that they dropped him in a hole.

[Narrator / Host]

It's the same story with the same.

[Larry Brandenburg]

Names he brought up. Tom Hinkle said they called him God and that he was a cold hearted killer. And he said that he heard that Richard Carroll may also be involved.

[Narrator / Host]

That's the guy who owned the meth lab right next to the punch bowl. Prior to this, Brandenburg had just suspected Carroll's involvement.

[Larry Brandenburg]

So that kind of got our attention, that he's putting out the right place, the right names.

[Narrator / Host]

Hager gets some new names for the task force. Brandenburg lands some witness corroboration. But the biggest outcome of this meeting is that Hager and Brandenburg have entered into a kind of unofficial partnership. Hager knows he's got to maintain the cone of silence, but the department tells him anything beyond narcotics should be passed along to the appropriate law enforcement division. So that's what Hager does. He hands off Ajay Leeds to Larry Brandenburg. And over time, the men develop a type of alley oop rapport.

[Darren Hager]

We would get the door open through our informants to where Larry wanted us to go and then pass that information on to Larry. And then he'd put. Try to put the homicide investigation together, you know, and it worked out, worked great.

[Narrator / Host]

And in the process they take a liking to Each other.

[Darren Hager]

Then we started hanging around each other and then we started talking off duty. And there might have been a couple glasses of chocolate milk here and there, off tv, whatever. We became good friends over it.

[Narrator / Host]

While Brandenburg works the homicide angle, Hager follows up on the names Keith has given him.

[Darren Hager]

We talk to probably thousands of people on the street, and you got to put that link chart together. Who knows, who are they really worth looking into a little more or talking to a little more. And every time you talk to one person, that person's going to give you a whole dozen other names.

[Narrator / Host]

And sometimes one of these names pays off. It's a new eyewitness who allegedly saw Ajay in the Punchbowl area at sunset right before he disappeared. And the witness tells Hager that Ajay had company.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

There are moments in each of our lives that seem to change everything. An unexpected diagnosis, the sudden end of a relationship, the loss of a job. As our lives veer off course, it can feel like time is dividing into a before and an after. I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist, and my new book, the Other side of who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans, is all about how we navigate these inflection points. The Other side of Change pairs singular real life stories with scientific insights to help us find meaning in the tumult of change. What if we saw the hardest moments in our lives not simply as something to endure, but as an opportunity to reimagine who we can be? I'm thrilled to share that Booklist gave the Other side of Change one of its coveted starred reviews, saying it's impossible not to be moved. The Other side of Change is out now. Get your copy today, wherever you like to buy books.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Narco detective Darren Hager hears about a guy named Rodney Katsif. He's fresh out of jail and finds work with a local lawyer digging up dirt on people.

[Darren Hager]

So Rodney Castiff was out shaking trees and bushes and interviewing people and doing his own thing.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Katsif is tied into the local drug world, including the godlike Tom Hinkle. So all sorts of characters opened up to him. And it turns out Katseif has a lead. He tells Hager about an interview he did with a man who claims that he saw John Ajay in the punch bowl at dusk right before he disappeared. This is a huge development because up until this point, all reported Auge sightings had been earlier in the day. So this witness, who we're going to call Matt, might have insight into Ajay's last moments. Catseff tells Hager that Matt was confronted by two armed bikers in the Punch bowl and that Matt saw John Ajay headed in the direction of those bikers. So Hager tracks down Matt to hear the story firsthand.

[Darren Hager]

First, he says, they were yelling by a rock, and your deputy went over to him, and he wouldn't talk any more than that.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Later, Matt starts to walk back. This version of events changes the biker details. Says he just saw some hippies.

[Darren Hager]

The next time we talked to him, he goes, well, I think the guys on the rocks were, like, jumping, and they were just yelling, having fun. You know, it wasn't like yelling like something was going wrong, like an argument.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Hager says Matt even seemed to be lying about what he was doing in the Punch bowl that day. He claimed to be up there mountain biking. But Hager learns that Matt is pretty tapped in with Tom Hinkle and Richard Carroll.

[Darren Hager]

He knew every player in that Punch bowl area. You know, if I went to ride a bike in the mountains, I'm not going to know everybody there. So this guy was intertwined somehow, some way.

[Betsy Shepherd]

But the lead fizzles out when Matt recants his story. Hager guesses it's because Matt was scared of the bikers and what would happen to him if the bikers found out he placed them in the Punch bowl at the time of Ajay's disappearance. And then something happens that strengthens Hager's hunch. He circles back with Katseff, that guy out there shaking those trees to see if he has any more details about Matt's original account. But before Hager can talk to him, Katsif disappears.

[Darren Hager]

His car was found burned up in the wash in Pear Blossom, and he's never been found again. And that's at the same time we were starting to get information from him on what we needed for our case.

[Betsy Shepherd]

In September 2001, Katz's car is found burned out near the Angeles National Forest, not far from where Audrey had been jogging three years earlier. And just like the deputy, Katsif vanishes into thin air. Hager can't help but think the two disappearances are related, that the men were taken out because they got too close to something. And there's a common thread between the disappearances, the outlaw bikers.

[Darren Hager]

If you didn't pay your debt or if you ratted or they thought you were gonna rat or you got involved in their business, it wasn't, hey, don't do that ever again. You're done. They got rid of you. They didn't take a chance. So that's where the murders came in.

[Narrator / Host]

Antelope Valley has a large presence of outlaw bikers who are constantly making the nightly news.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Witnesses describe a chaotic scene of gunfire.

[Narrator / Host]

And stabbing between the Hell's Angels and.

[Betsy Shepherd]

One of the most violent motorcycle gangs in the country, the Mongols.

[Vince Burton]

Prosecutors say Vagos are being charged with murder, attempted murder, drug and firearms dealing.

[Darren Hager]

I know they don't like me to call them our local terrorists, but I'll put that name on them too.

[Narrator / Host]

These groups also went by another name, the one percenters. It's a term coined back in the 1940s to distinguish the majority of bikers who are law abiding citizens from a small number of bad apples. The one. Some biker gangs have turned that into a point of pride, embracing the 1 percenter label. And that's often reflected in their names. The Devil's Disciples, the Grim Reapers and the Diablos. The official term law enforcement uses to refer to one percenter groups is outlaw motorcycle gangs or OMGs. The bikers got the OMG acronym well before texting emerged, just FYI. And many of these OMGs are native to Southern California.

[John Carr]

Hells Angels originated in San Bernardino. The Vagos originated in San Bernardino. The Mongols originated in Montebello, California. So I mean this is a lot of the mother chapters of these clubs started here.

[Narrator / Host]

This is John Carr, a retired agent from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and explosives, or ATF. He's an expert in the OMGs and back in the day he even infiltrated some of them while working undercover. And he still looks the part, intimidating and all muscle. Carr says that the biker gangs claim they're turf and the Antelope Valley belongs to the Vagos.

[John Carr]

The Vagos are still that old school kind of down and dirty.

[Narrator / Host]

OMG Car lays out two denim vests that he confiscated from the Vagos during prior investigations. The centerpiece of the vest is the club's emblem.

[John Carr]

There's center patch. You can see this red devil. It's supposed to be the red Loki, the Norse God of mischief. He's on a winged wheel and he's holding basically Vago's banner up in his hands. And then the MC is for motorcycle club.

[Narrator / Host]

Bikers are given the back patch. When they're officially selected as a member, they can earn others for different contributions to the club. In front of us there's a swastika patch which tracks because a lot of the biker gangs have deep roots in Neo Nazism. Other patches are slightly more subtle, like the one that says mf.

[John Carr]

If you ask Avago what it means, they'll say it means motorcycle family. But as law enforcement, we know it's what they call their motherfucker patch. That's a patch you earn for doing some form of violence.

[Narrator / Host]

You know, I know that the Vagos will not like this comparison, but so it is a little bit like girl Scouts in that you get patches for doing certain things.

[Larry Brandenburg]

Absolutely.

[Darren Hager]

You, you.

[John Carr]

There's patches you earn and without a doubt, you know, I mean, in this culture, their, their cuts, their vests are one of the most important things to them. It's a very sacred thing to these guys.

[Narrator / Host]

It's not just that the patches are sacred. There's a quasi religious aspect to biker culture in general. The gangs hold weekly meetings, they call church, and there's even a group mentality when it comes to acts of violence.

[John Carr]

You know, they use a term called a boot party, right?

[Narrator / Host]

A boot party where, you know, you.

[John Carr]

Basically stomp the shit out of somebody.

[Narrator / Host]

Carr saw evidence of this firsthand. A bloody corpse that the Vagos had dumped in the desert.

[John Carr]

You know, and that's part of the way this individual got murdered. He got stomped to death just having that motorcycle boot imprint on his face.

[Narrator / Host]

In the Mojave Desert, Detective Darren Hager says the Vagos were involved in all types of criminal activity.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Police from five counties carry out a.

[Narrator / Host]

Massive early morning raid on the outlaw.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Motorcycle gang called Vagos.

[Betsy Shepherd]

They seize guns, drugs, money, and arrest.

[Narrator / Host]

25 bikers, charging them with murder, attempted.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

Murder, and drug dealing.

[Narrator / Host]

One of the agencies targeting the bikers was the DEA with the Operation Silent Thunder task force.

[Darren Hager]

I'm not saying all the dope in Antelope Valley came from the 1 percenters, but it was a big percent of the antelope Valley. I mean, they, they did a lot of the meth dealing, and they were huge. I mean, we took down a 57 pound ephedrine lab, we took down 100 pound methamphetamine lab, and lots of seizures in between.

[Betsy Shepherd]

As Hager and his DEA counterparts start mapping out the meth trade, they identify six cells in the area. One was run by a Mexican cartel. The other five were associated with outlaw biker gangs. Which checks because bikers and meth are a duo as old as time. Crank. One of meth's early nicknames came from motorcycle gangs because they used to hide their drugs in their engine block. Also known as a crank case. The bikers would cook meth nearly anywhere in shipping containers and trailers. And the Vagos were known to use Rick Carroll's underground lab near the Punch Bowl. It was also bikers who started making crystal, a type of meth sold in rock form. And that led to skyrocketing meth use, because crystal was easy to make and extremely potent. That 97% pure Breaking Bad. Meth. Motorcycle culture is so ubiquitous in the Antelope valley in the 90s and 2000s that the local cops want in on the action. Sheriff's deputies even formed their own biker club called the Outlaw Pigs. With jackets, patches, the whole nine yards.

[Vince Burton]

What's the image on the back of the jacket? It's a pig with horns.

[Betsy Shepherd]

A pig with horns?

[Vince Burton]

Yeah, it's a pig with horns, yeah.

[Betsy Shepherd]

I recently hopped on the phone with Vince Burton. He's retired from the LASD now, but when Ajay disappeared, he was a sergeant at the Palmdale station, and he helped lead the Ajay search. He also founded the Outlaw Pigs.

[Vince Burton]

We didn't, you know, violate the. Well, we might have spent now and then on motorcycles, but that's probably about it. You know, we weren't. We weren't thugs.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Burton says the Outlaw Pigs was just a fraternal club with cops who happened to ride Harleys. But Burton also worked in the area, so he got to know the Vagos, including the club's president, a guy named 37.

[Vince Burton]

I still have the phone number for 37. Who was. That's his nickname, his street name. He is like the godfather of the chapter.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Burton says that when possible, he'd let the Vagos sort out their own affairs. And when members got on his radar, he'd go straight to 37 and pressure him to get his troops in line.

[Vince Burton]

I would say, go take care of your brother. Right now, we're gonna go in there and arrest him and his old lady for being stupid or for doing this or doing that. Okay? Sergeant Burton and his guys would go and if they had to physically handle whatever, and he would take their guy away, and the problem was solved.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Telling the Vagos to discipline its members seems like a bad idea because their form of discipline often involves violence, sometimes extreme violence. But there's a larger issue at play here. It's this chummy relationship between law enforcement and outlaw bikers. There was even a deputy rumored to be a patched member. He had all the Vagos gear at home, would park his patrol vehicle outside their church meetings, and he even served as a lookout for the gang. While on duty and in uniform. He posted up outside a house while the Vagos robbed a couple inside. Byrne says that law enforcement's relationship with the bikers was all strategic. A way to gather intel and maintain order. But this dynamic seems problematic. Like it could be used as a cover for criminal behavior. Like, for example, when Burton tells a local member of the House Angels that he and his deputies have got his back.

[Vince Burton]

I said, hey, this is members of my team. They have already been told that at any time you can call them and that they will respond to you even when I'm gone, as if it was me. And you can trust them, because if they violate my trust or the trust with you, then they'll deal with me. And they don't want to do that, because I will forever haunt them. And I have forever friends on the department who will make their lives miserable if they ruin that trust in me.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Burton had a similar arrangement with members of the Vagos.

[Vince Burton]

And as soon as they would see who I would was, they knew I wasn't going to screw with them. And I would just say, hey, Desert Rick, what's up? What's going on? Everything cool? You guys behaving? And it's funny, in a lot of these things, they would always say, well, you know, Sergeant Burton, we don't shit in our own backyard.

[Betsy Shepherd]

But sometimes they do shit in their own backyard. And Ajay's disappearance might be one of those times, because according to witnesses, the Vagos know exactly what happened to the deputy.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

There are moments in each of our lives that seem to change everything. An unexpected diagnosis, the sudden end of a relationship, the loss of a job. As our lives veer off course, it can feel like time is dividing into a before and an after. I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist, and my new book, the Other side of who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans, is all about how we navigate these inflection points. The Other side of Change pairs singular real life stories with scientific insights to help us find meaning in the tumult of change. What if we saw the hardest moments in our lives not simply as something to endure, but as an opportunity to reimagine who we can be? I'm thrilled to share that Booklist gave the Other side of Change one of its coveted starred reviews, saying, quote, it's impossible not to be moved. The Other side of Change is out now. Get your copy today, wherever you like to buy books.

[Narrator / Host]

The relationship between the bikers and local deputies creates major hurdles for Hager and Brandenburg. Even when witnesses are brave enough to come forward, they often change their minds before giving the detectives the information they need.

[Larry Brandenburg]

They didn't know who to trust. And that makes sense. So they say, I ain't saying Shit, I just want to stay alive and I'm going to go hide. Well, that's what happened.

[Narrator / Host]

It happened with a witness. We'll call Tina. Hager and Brandenburg get a call from a lawyer with big news. He says his client knows the location of Ajay's remains. Up until now, people have said Ajay was dropped in a hole. But this is the first person claiming specific knowledge of where he was buried. It's a hot tip and could unlock the whole mystery of what happened on June 11, 1998. So Haeger meets with the lawyer and sets up a time to meet with his client, Tina. But she never shows. Not the first time, not the second time. So Brandenburg takes a crack at it and finds out where Tina's staying. When he gets there, she refuses to open the door, saying she can't trust him because, quote, there are dirty cops out there. Brandenburg reassures Tina he's no dirty cop. And eventually she agrees to talk.

[Larry Brandenburg]

She said that there was a guy in the Vaginals motorcycle gang and his name was Big Rick. And she said he was involved in this murder of the deputy, and she had been shown where he was buried, which we went, wow, okay, by who? And she says Big Rick showed her.

[Narrator / Host]

A name, a supposed confession, and the possibility of forensic evidence. It's a stunning revelation. Brandenburg does his homework and finds out Big Rick isn't just a member of the Vagos. He's the sergeant at arms, the muscle, the enforcer.

[Vince Burton]

And as soon as they would see who I was, they knew I wasn't gonna screw with him.

[Narrator / Host]

And it seems he went by multiple names.

[Vince Burton]

I would just say, hey, Desert Rick. What's up? What's going on?

[Narrator / Host]

Big Rick is also a big time meth supplier. And according to court records, he was known for using extreme force to collect on drug debts. And he's got the look to match a prison yard Hulk Hogan. So, yeah, Tina's scared to cross him, which is why she shuts the conversation down before Brandenburg can find out the location of Ajay's alleged grave.

[Larry Brandenburg]

It was, you know, it's like searching for a needle haystack out there in that desert, in that mountain.

[Betsy Shepherd]

And so you couldn't convince her to show you?

[Larry Brandenburg]

No, she wasn't going with us on a little field trip. She did not want to do that. She wasn't going that far. It was hard to get her to go this far.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Tina's story wouldn't be the only time Big Rick's name came up in connection to the Auge case. Big Rick was Identified by Hager and Operation Silent Thunder as a linchpin in the meth production process. He was an ephedrine supplier, which means he obtained and distributed one of the key ingredients for making meth. Ephedrine is found in decongestants like Sudafed and was legal to buy at the time, but only in limited quantities. The GRIC had a workaround, though. He used a connection. He had the next county over, where Hager says Rick would buy ephedrine in bulk and then distribute it to meth cooks in the greater Pearblossom area to people like bearded methaclaus Tom Hinkle.

[Darren Hager]

All the meth was coming to Tom Hinkle so he could sell the meth out of his house.

[Betsy Shepherd]

And that's why Hager takes note when a tip comes in that puts Big Rick in the devil's punch bowl. On the day of Ajay's disappearance, according to a new witness, Bigrick said he was making an ephedrine deal in the punch box bowl when he was approached by a cop. And so he shot and killed him, adding that the cop was stupid, thinking he could make the bust by himself. So in July 2001, when Big Rick is arrested during Operation Silent Thunder, Hager sees an opportunity to gather more intel on him.

[Darren Hager]

So we take Big Rick to jail.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Down federal custody, where his phone calls are recorded. So when Big Rick calls home, Hager says he got a chance to hear.

[Darren Hager]

It, listen to the phone call. He calls the house, talks to his son, said, did they find the gun?

[Betsy Shepherd]

Law enforcement had recently served a search warrant at Bigrick's house, and his son.

[Darren Hager]

Said, no, they missed it. They didn't find because he had a false compartment under the floor of his closet.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Big Rick is still worried about that.

[Darren Hager]

Gun, though, and he goes, you know what would happen if they found that gun? I'd be looking at the death penalty, make sure that gun disappears. He goes, dad, I got it taken care of.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Hager's hackles go up, because a guy like Big Rick would not be stressing over just any illegal firearm. Bikers like Big Rick run guns in their sleep. So this gun must have some history to it. And Hager wonders if it might be connected to Ajay.

[Darren Hager]

That statement was just in my book, is huge. Why are you concerned about a death penalty over a firearm? You can go out and kill anybody you want. You're not gonna get the death penalty in California. But if you killed a cop, that was the death penalty. And that was the only missing cop that I know of in that time.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Period, California rarely executes people. The last one was in 2006. But one of the special circumstances used to invoke capital punishment here is the murder of a law enforcement officer. In fact, a California man was recently sentenced to death for killing a cop. So Hager's right. Big Rick's statement is suspicious, especially in light of everything else Hager and Brandenburg have heard. Like Big Rick taking Tina to Ajay's alleged gravesite and telling another witness he killed a cop. And the eyewitness who says he saw Ajay in the punch bowl with two bikers. Hager thinks he's onto something.

[Darren Hager]

We just need that one person to say, I was there. This is what happened. It wasn't a suicide. Ajay's not in Alaska. He's not working for the government. He was murdered with the punch bowl.

[Narrator / Host]

Brandenburg thinks he's got a line on that person. When a woman comes forward saying that her longtime friend is dating a Vagos member and has insider knowledge of what happened to Ajay, she had told her.

[Larry Brandenburg]

The story that she was in this Vago party in the garage, and she overheard the statement that Ajay had this deputy, not Ajay, didn't know his name, I don't think. But he came across a meth lab that was the Vagos were involved with, and he was going to be a hero, and he was taken care of.

[Narrator / Host]

It's the same story that Brandenburg's been hearing over and over again. There's one detail that makes this tip stand out, though. The Vagos were reportedly telling this story within a few days of Audrey Jay's disappearance. And Brandenburg thinks they're not going to brag about killing a cop unless they're sure he's dead, because then you're going.

[Larry Brandenburg]

To look like fools on the street. We're taking credit for big bad bikers taking care of this deputy sheriff. And now they find them alive up there in the mountains or in Alaska or wherever. You look pretty stupid. So that's why I thought people don't make up like that.

[Narrator / Host]

So he sets out to find the woman who was at the biker party, who we're going to call Jen. But she keeps dodging Brandenburg, which he takes to mean he's on the right track.

[Larry Brandenburg]

If an informant. Somebody's in jail, for instance, and they call you and they say, hey, I got some real good info on something. Come talk to me. You're always skeptical. Okay, what do you want? Return. But when you get it, like, this girl didn't raise her hand. She wasn't Calling us, hey, come talk to me. No, she was hiding from us.

[Narrator / Host]

Jen had only told a close friend or two, had never reached out to the cops directly. And when Brandenburg does eventually find her, she still won't talk. Not at first, anyway.

[Larry Brandenburg]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And then we pressed her and she finally said, you guys, you're all connected cops, dirty, good and bad. You're all the same. And she said she didn't trust any of us.

[Narrator / Host]

This is emerging as a pattern for Brandenburg and Hager, witnesses and informants who are scared of the cops.

[Larry Brandenburg]

Ms. Went on to say that she heard from a friend who she refused to name that Deputy Audrey was jogging near the punch bowl when he came across Deputy Ingalls meth lab and was killed.

[Narrator / Host]

Deputy Engels, meth lab the word on.

[Larry Brandenburg]

The street among a close circle of drug dealers has been that Deputy Ingalls has been involved with drugs for a very long time.

[Narrator / Host]

As in LA County Sheriff's Deputy Rick Engels.

[Larry Brandenburg]

Yeah, that's pretty, pretty frightening.

[Narrator / Host]

If this alleged dirty deputy was involved in the local meth trade, what else could he be involved in? That's next time on Valley of Shadows.

[Darren Hager]

There was an inappropriate relationship between Rick Ingalls and at least one drug dealer in the area.

[Larry Brandenburg]

Then I started interviewing other people and Rick Ingalls name starts coming up more and more and more.

[Betsy Shepherd]

Do I believe Ingalls is a dirty cop? Absolutely. If you have any information or tips related to the disappearance of John ajay, please call 213-262-9889 or email Shadowsushkin FM. Valley of Shadows is reported, written and produced by us, Betsy shepherd and Haley Fox. Our editor is Diane Hodson. Our executive producers are Jacob Smith and Alexandra Garriton. Original music by Jake Gorski, Ray Lynch, Mike Jersich and Hayden Gardner. Sound design by Jake Gorski. Fact checking by Annika Robbins. Additional production support by Sonja Gerwitt. And our show Art was designed by Sean Carney and Betsy Shepherd. Special thanks to Nick White for the show Art Photo. Valley of Shadows is a production of Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts from Type two Fun. We're Betsy and Haley. See you next.

[Dr. Maya Shankar]

There are moments in each of our lives that seem to change everything. An unexpected diagnosis. The sudden end of a relationship. The loss of a job. As our lives veer off course, it can feel like time is dividing into a before and an after. I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist, and my new book, the Other side of who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans, is all about how we navigate these inflection points. The Other side of Change pairs singular real life stories with scientific insights to help us find meaning in the tumult of change. What if we saw the hardest moments in our lives not simply as something to endure, but as an opportunity to reimagine who we can be? I'm thrilled to share that Booklist gave the Other side of Change one of its coveted starred reviews, saying it's impossible not to be moved. The Other side of Change is out now. Get your copy today, wherever you like to buy books.