Coming to America

Summary

Velshi Banned Book Club: "Coming to America" Episode Summary

Release Date: September 19, 2024

Introduction

In the latest episode of MSNBC’s “Velshi Banned Book Club,” host Ali Velshi delves into the poignant narratives of immigrant experiences and the intricate journey of young women forging their identities in America. This episode, titled "Coming to America," features a deep exploration of two seminal works: Julia Alvarez’s How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents and Ibi Zoboi’s American Street. Both authors join Velshi to discuss the themes of their books, the reasons behind their censorship, and the critical importance of diverse literature in contemporary society.

Overview of the Episode

Opening with a brief introduction, Ali Velshi sets the stage by highlighting the current epidemic of book banning and censorship in the United States. He emphasizes the role of literature as a form of resistance and introduces the two featured books that spotlight the immigrant female experience in America.

Discussion of How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents by Julia Alvarez

Theme of Identity and Assimilation

Velshi begins by summarizing Alvarez’s novel, which follows the Garcia family’s migration from the Dominican Republic to New York City. The narrative, told in reverse chronological order, explores the daughters’ struggles with dual identities—balancing Dominican heritage with American influences.

Ali Velshi [00:58]: "Both books grapple with what all of this means for women. For young women in New York City and Detroit, the respective settings of both books, the stakes are higher."

Censorship Issues

The conversation shifts to the book’s controversial themes, including sexual awakening and assault, which have led to multiple attempts to ban the novel in schools and libraries. Velshi references the National Coalition Against Censorship’s defense of the book, arguing that such content is essential for high school curricula.

Ali Velshi [05:50]: "It is Books like How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents that have contemporary stories to tell. It's books like How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents that illustrate what this country actually looks like today."

Author Interview Highlights

Julia Alvarez joins the discussion, reflecting on the personal impact of her work. She shares a moving account of a middle school student who found solace and understanding through her novel, highlighting the book’s role as a mirror for readers.

Julia Alvarez [06:06]: "You make me want to read the book."

Alvarez elaborates on the complexities of immigrant identity and the nuanced portrayal of female experiences, emphasizing that identity is an ongoing process rather than a fixed state.

Julia Alvarez [09:51]: "Identity is not a done deal. Here I am reinventing myself as an elder, what is my identity?"

Discussion of American Street by Ibi Zoboi

Theme of Haitian Culture and Immigration

Ali Velshi introduces Ibi Zoboi’s American Street, a novel that intertwines Haitian Vodou spirituality with the modern immigrant experience in Detroit. The story centers on Fabiola “Fabb” Toussaint, a 16-year-old navigating life after her mother is detained by immigration authorities.

Ali Velshi [16:09]: "American Street is a stark look at contemporary American life in an underserved city. It's a story of survival, identity, community, and family."

Censorship Issues

The episode addresses the challenges American Street has faced, including objections labeling it as vulgar and sexually explicit. This led to the school district restricting the book to specific passages, depriving students of its full narrative.

Ali Velshi [20:26]: "Fabiola does make it to the Other side of the Glass as both an American and a Haitian."

Author Interview Highlights

Ibi Zoboi discusses her intent to portray Haitian culture authentically, combating stereotypes and emphasizing the strength derived from spiritual beliefs.

Ibi Zoboi [15:28]: "There's a lot of cultural retention for Haitians. I wanted to highlight that in the book because it's important and valuable."

Zoboi also addresses the depiction of police brutality in both Haiti and Detroit, drawing parallels between the two settings to underscore the global nature of systemic violence.

Ibi Zoboi [24:15]: "These two teenage girls are just comparing their experiences and they are black experiences, global black experiences."

Concluding Thoughts

The episode culminates in a thoughtful dialogue between Velshi and Zoboi, moderated by literary editor Hannah Holland. They explore the layered identities of immigrant young women, the transformative power of literature, and the enduring impact of banned books.

Ali Velshi [28:06]: "Are you American? Are you whatever you were before you became an American? And what are the rules about being a girl?"

Both authors underscore the necessity of diverse narratives in fostering understanding and empathy, advocating for the preservation of books that challenge societal norms and provide representation for marginalized communities.

Additional Mentions and Promotions

The episode concludes with a brief mention of upcoming features, including Tim O’Brien’s The Things They Carried, highlighting its exploration of war’s multifaceted impact on individuals.

Ali Velshi [41:35]: "How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?"

Ali also promotes exclusive content available through MSNBC Premium, encouraging listeners to subscribe for ad-free experiences and early access to content.

Key Takeaways

• Representation Matters: Diverse narratives provide essential mirrors for marginalized readers, fostering a sense of belonging and understanding.
• Censorship is Damaging: Attempts to ban books like How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents and American Street limit educational and personal growth opportunities.
• Literature as Resistance: Reading and sharing banned books act as a form of resistance against cultural erasure and censorship.
• Complexity of Identity: Immigrant young women navigate multifaceted identities, balancing cultural heritage with the pursuit of individuality in a new country.

Notable Quotes

• Julia Alvarez [09:51]: "Identity is not a done deal. Here I am reinventing myself as an elder, what is my identity?"
• Ibi Zoboi [24:15]: "These two teenage girls are just comparing their experiences and they are black experiences, global black experiences."
• Ali Velshi [32:13]: "Both books come from a place where either the situation was unstable, stable back home, or you're on the wrong side of politics."

Conclusion

The “Coming to America” episode of the Velshi Banned Book Club serves as a compelling examination of immigrant narratives and the ongoing battle against literary censorship. Through heartfelt discussions with Julia Alvarez and Ibi Zoboi, the episode underscores the vital role of literature in reflecting and shaping societal values, advocating for the protection of diverse voices in the literary canon.

Transcript

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[Ali Velshi]

Foreign I'm MSNBC's Ali Velshi. Welcome to the Velshi Band Book Club. Immigrants and their place in this country have long been a topic of heated conversation in the country. Today's meeting of the Velshi Band Book Club is going to explore two works of literature that illustrate what it means to be an immigrant and a young woman in America. How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents by Julia Alvarez An American Streak by Ibi Zuboi Perhaps at a cursory glance you would see clear similarities between the two stories. Both books grapple with family dynamics, the role of religion, and what it means to become an American when so much of who you are remains in another place and in another culture. And both books grapple with what all of this means for women. For young women in New York City and Detroit, the respective settings of both books, the stakes are higher. Finding yourself, your community and your footing in America can mean life and death. And yet how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents and American street were published 26 years apart. Together, they are a temporal study in the changing culture in America and changing dynamics for immigrants. We didn't pick these two stories as a means of contrast, rather as a critical look at a small part of the ever growing immigrant literary canon and the nuanced stories that illuminate this very real experience. Let's start with the first of the two books to be published, how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents by Julia Alvarez. There's a family of six, two parents and four daughters that live right here in New York City. They came from the Dominican Republic and can trace their lineage all the way back to the conquistadors they left behind cousins, aunts and uncles, and a community with tall, safe walls. After their father joined a failed attempt to oust the then dictator Rafael Trujillo, they had no choice. They had to escape to the US In New York, the family only has each other. The four daughters face bullies who taunt them about their identity with words they don't understand. Soon, though, the girls begin to assimilate and grasp American independence. For better and for worse, they're split in half, American and Dominican, Dominican and American, struggling to understand how a fractured identity can make a whole person. While that story, in variation, is the story that many immigrants share, it is the fictional plot of the first of today's Velshi Band Book Club features How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents by Julia Alvarez. Written reverse chronologically from 1989 backward to 1956 and composed of 15 interconnected short stories, how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents explores the Garcia family and Yolanda, the most rebellious of the four daughters. The novel has no true linear plot, masterfully and intentionally mirroring the Garcia girls own instability and impermanence. Part coming of age story and part historical fiction, how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents explores themes of identity, assimilation, family, and memory. It is an immigrant story. In a matter of pages, the Garcia girls go from praying to return to the Dominican Republic to being forcibly sent there as a punishment for being rebellious teenagers. Here, Alvarez flawlessly juxtaposes the fraught tensions between a typical American teenager and her parents with the tensions between a Dominican American teenager and her immigrant parents. How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents also deals with both women's sexual awakening and sexual assault with gentle nuance and frank realism, two critical themes that have led to numerous calls for removal since the book's publication in the 1990s. The National Coalition Against Censorship, a nonprofit that defends free expression, responded to one attempted ban by a parent in Johnston County Schools in North Carolina with a letter arguing in favor of keeping the book on library shelves. Arguing in part the sexual content and themes in how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents represents essential parts of the novel, consistent with the kind of material that high school students frequently read. If students were precluded from reading literature with sexual content, they would be deprived of exposure to vast amounts of important material, including Shakespeare, major religious texts such as the Bible, the works of Tolstoy, Flaubert, Joyce. These books are classics, works that will make it through this dark moment of censorship in the country. It's Books like How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents that have contemporary stories to tell. It's books like how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents that illustrate what this country actually looks like today. Today, it's books like how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents that we really need. I'm joined now by Julia Alvarez, the recipient of the National Medal of Arts from then President Obama and author of today's VEL Book Club feature, How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Julia Alvarez]

Thank you, Ali, so much and for that introduction. You make me want to read the book.

[Ali Velshi]

Well, that's the point. We want everybody to do that. Let's start with chapter one. Yolanda visits the Dominican Republic and tries to reclaim her roots. She gets a flat tire while gathering guavas in the countryside. Then two men approach her. She begins to speak English and immediately tells them that she is American. Tell me why you set that scene for the rest of the book with the story.

[Julia Alvarez]

Well, I haven't thought about that scene in a while, but I was thinking about the ways in which when you're an immigrant, you're this hybrid person and your American ness, your usa, American nest, because we're all Americans in this hemisphere, gives us a certain amount of protection in other countries, or so Yolanda thinks. And so when she is terrified being a woman, being alone, because that's another theme in the book, it's immigration and life in a female body, she runs to that defense. She figures if she pretends that she doesn't speak Spanish and she's only her American self, she will be safe. So it shows, as you said, the nuance in what it means to be an immigrant. There isn't a clear cut line. There isn't a right way and a wrong way. It's a constant fluctuating and complex.

[Ali Velshi]

It's not even complex between different people or between different people in the family. It's complex within one individual on an ongoing basis. Something you capture well in the book. I came away from it thinking a lot about this concept of being sheltered. The Garcia girls are literally sheltered in the Dominican Republic by the walls, the compound in which they live, the amount of family surrounding them, the confines of the island. And then in New York City, that all goes away. Let's talk about the dichotomy between their upbringing in the Dominican Republic and their life in New York City.

[Julia Alvarez]

Well, they come to the United States and it's the United States of the sixties civil rights movement just getting started. And they at first resist and want to go back to as they say, you open the cage and the little bird has stayed there so long, doesn't know what to do, so it doesn't want to come out. But once they feel this freedom to explore that complexity we've been talking about, they just fly. And this is a situation often with first generation, second generation immigrant families, that the parents are still part of the old world. There's a way in which they don't assimilate. And yet the new generations become part of the new culture. And that causes all kinds of divisions in the family and within the Garcia girls because they feel both poles. So I wanted to capture not as straightforward, you know, it come, it's the American dream, everything goes fine. Because that's not true, right? You know, kids reading these books, immigrant kids, kids that have been here all their life to understand that complexity is important so that they feel there isn't a right and wrong way to be that it's a process.

[Ali Velshi]

It's a process. It's complex. And once you work it all out, it evolves into whatever your identity is. And ultimately, how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents is a story about identity. This is illustrated in the many nicknames that Yolanda goes by. Joe, Yosita, yo, yo, yo. And when she says, quote, I would never find someone who would understand my particular mix of Catholicism and agnosticism, Hispanic and American styles, end quote. Tell us about this. It's part and parcel of what you're doing. But Yolanda in one character is multiple identities.

[Julia Alvarez]

Well, and I think that that's true for all of us. We carry many cells around. And if you say this is a novel about identity, identity is not a done deal. Here I am reinventing myself as an elder, you know, what is my identity? What is my work in the world? So it's an ongoing process. And you know what I do, Ali, when I need help negotiating it? I go to books. I read novels with older protagonists. I want to see films. I want to understand this landscape so I can find my way through it. And this is why books are so important to us and especially to our young people who are doing that in a way consciously, for the first time as adolescents finding themselves trying to figure out who they are.

[Ali Velshi]

This is amazing because that is something that so many of our authors who are members of the banned book club say to us that the greatest reward for one of these authors is not making a bestsellers list or the money that actually doesn't typically come from being an author. It's the idea that someone wrote to them and Said I saw myself in your book or I saw something about myself or I saw a way of articulating the struggles through which I am navigating in your book. That tends to be the thing most authors tell me is the most gratifying.

[Julia Alvarez]

Exactly. It's interesting you say that because I pull this out right before coming on just this January. I get a two page type letter and I'm not going to say the name because I don't have her permission, but from a student, she's in middle school and she read Garcia Girls and she said basically my family has shared a lot of the issues with the Garcia family, including struggle with domestic violence. The way you wrote sparked memories. I haven't thought about it in a long time. It felt too familiar. My heart pounding, my throat catching anxiety made me cry a bit. As I read and reread it, I was painfully reminded of the long conversations with my mom after conflicts with my father. However, I came to the realization that the reason both Carlos in the book and my father acted the way they did was out of insecurity. This is a 13, 14 year old girl and you can go to therapy for a lifetime to get this kind of reading at home. And I'm sure she's read other books in which there were conflicts with the father, but because she was Latina and she saw it play out, she made a leap and it lit up her world. She understood. And that, I mean, I don't want to sound like I don't appreciate all kinds of readers and all kinds of affirmations, but that it's truly home. That's me at her age. But I didn't have Garcia Girls to read.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah, that's exactly what so many of our authors say that they almost write it for their younger own selves. I want to read a small part of a New York Times review from back in 2018. Quote, I must have read hundreds of books, but I never encountered any character like me. Dominican, nerdy, an immigrant whose first language was Spanish. By the time I found Alvarez's debut novel, how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents, I'd already resigned myself to using books as windows rather than mirrors. End quote. I think that's really powerful. Decades after publishing this book in 1991, your writing is still, to some people, the first representation that they will find of themselves. Mirror, not window.

[Julia Alvarez]

Oh, what a beautiful. Oh, I gotta steal that. Yep, window. A mirror, not a window. And that's so heartening and you know, I wish it weren't so, but you're doing the job of keeping those books up there so there will be those books available and not pulled off the shelves because people are afraid of anything that is going to be disturbing or I guess other than what they want in their bubble. It should go back to the potato ship that we can't.

[Ali Velshi]

Right? Right. You want democracy, you want freedom, you want plurality and pluralism. This is what you get. You read books. Thank you. Julia Alvarez, the award winning author of many books including how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents. After a quick break, I'll be joined by Ibi Zuboi, author of American Street. Not only does American street fully explore what it means to be an immigrant in America, it is also a celebration of Haitian culture and religion. This is the Welsh Band Book Club.

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[Ali Velshi]

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[Ibi Zoboi]

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[Ali Velshi]

TRUMP100 hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? New York Times tech reporter Kate Conger on Elon Musk in the Trump 2.0 era.

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[Ali Velshi]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever.

[Ibi Zoboi]

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[Ali Velshi]

American street by Ibi Zuboi begins and ends the same way, through a window. Quote on one side of the glass doors are the long lines of people with their photos and papers that prove that they belong here in America, that they are allowed to taste a bit of this free air. On the other side is me pressing my forehead against a thick see through wall. Set on the corner of American street and Joy Road in Detroit's west side, American street centers on 16 year old Fabiola Toussaint, her Matant Joe and three cousins, Pre Donna and Chantal. Born in Detroit but raised in Haiti's capital city, Port au Prince, Fabiola emigrates back to the United States with her mother to reunite with her extended family, finish high school and live quote on this side of the good life. End quote. When Fab's mother is detained by US immigration, she's left to find herself in the streets of Detroit without a parent. Soon, Fab faces gang violence, drug use, first love, and an untimely death that forces her to question who she is and where she belongs. Written seamlessly coupling accessible language and frank storytelling with magic realism, American street is equal parts immigration and coming of age story. Zoboi masterfully uses familiar devices from both the American immigration canon and young adult coming of age literature to create a nuanced story that reads as fresh and honest. While most of the story is told to us by Fab, there are entire chapters printed in italics, dedicated to the point of view of secondary characters, even one from Fabb's house on American Street. American street is a stark look at contemporary American life in an underserved city. It's a story of survival, identity, community and family. At its core, American street is a celebration and exploration of Haitian culture, especially religion. Fabb uses Haitian voodoo spirits known as Iwas to orient herself in the unfamiliar Detroit cultural landscape. Donna's abusive boyfriend is Baron Samdi, the Keeper of death. The man who sits on an overturned plastic bucket outside Fab's window is Papa Legba, who stands at a spiritual crossroads. Fab's refusal to reject her religious ideology is not just a means to preserve her identity, it's a way to survive. Baron Samdi. Azili. Azili Danto, Ogu Le Marassa, Jumeau, Papa Legba. These are my guides. I need them now. I have to call on them. If there ever was a time that I needed to pray, to pour libation, to ring the bell, to rattle the asan, to sing a song so all my ancestors and my iwas, so God can hear me, it is now that creative and non linear storytelling would make American street almost impossible to read. In excerpts taken without context, these critical moments will mean little. But for one group of students in Elmhurst, Illinois, that will be their only option. After an Elmhurst resident objected to the book as vulgar, misogynistic, sexually explicit, pornographic and far below grade level, end quote. At a school board meeting, the board decided to restrict use of the book in freshman English classes to specific passages. Now students in Elmer's School District 205 will only have access to vetted snippets to read. Fabiola does make it to the Other side of the Glass as both an American and a Haitian quote, I stare out the window as we drive out of Michigan. I press my forehead and fingertips against the glass on the other side of the wide free road. Unlike in Haiti, which means land of many mountains, the ground is level here and stretches as far as I can see, as if there are no limits to dreams here. End quote. For those high school students in District 205, they won't understand why that matters. I'm thrilled to be joined by Ibi Zuboi, the author of National Book Award finalist and today's Welshy Band book Club feature American Street.

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[Ali Velshi]

Well, I appreciate that. We appreciate the book that you've written about Haiti and it's complicated. It's been complicated since I was a little kid and before that it's a complicated place.

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Yeah, we're probably from the same generation. And Haiti has been on the news my entire life. I was born there. I came here when I was 4, and I remember watching the dictator being ousted on television when I was just in fourth grade. So it's something that's part of my reality.

[Ali Velshi]

Multiple times through the book, Fabiola describes living through the deadly 2010 earthquake in Haiti. Quote, it rained dust and screams and prayers. I was in the middle of it all, standing on two skinny, ashy legs with my wet hands, alive, unbroken after all. Now, after the hurricane, the American televangelist Pat Robertson made headlines from blaming a, quote, Haitian devil pact on the earthquake. How do we work on shading the American understanding of Haiti and what needs to happen there without falling into that kind of nonsense? The racism, the tropes, the misunderstandings.

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Well, the wonderful thing that we have now is the Internet and we have the media, wonderful spaces like yours where news is being told to us, but we have social media where we can push back against some of the narratives. When I was growing Up. That's all you heard? Quote, unquote. Haiti is the poorest country in the Western hemisphere. But now we can say Port au Prince is not all of Haiti. A neighborhood in Port au Prince is not all of Port au Prince. And we want to push back against that narrative that Haiti's culture, Haiti's spirit, is not the reason why it's in the situation that it is now. And I'm so thankful for so many voices and the books that I write and the books that others write to push back against those narratives. And American street features Haitian Vodou as a spiritual guide, as a spiritual foundation that helps my character through her journey and is not something that is evil.

[Ali Velshi]

Or wrong, as we talked about in the introduction. So much of this book is grounded in Fab's spirituality and religious beliefs of the ways in which she's different from her Americanized or more Americanized cousins. From the book, quote. You got your voodoo stuff in here, Fab? She asks Pre. You have to treat it with a little more respect. It's not just my voodoo stuff. It's my life. I say, so what? Without it, you're dead. I don't know, Pre. I've never been without my prayers and my songs. What do you hold on to? Myself, my family, hopes, dreams, stuff like that.

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Yeah. The thing about the Americanization process is we discard certain things, and when we hold on to certain things. And there are Haitians in Haiti who do not practice Haitian Vodou, a strong Christian population. At the same time, those who do really use it as a source of power and strength when they come here, there's a lot of cultural retention for Haitians. And I wanted to highlight that in that book and because it's important and it's a. A valuable part of our history and culture.

[Ali Velshi]

When we tell stories about places in conflict, it is inherently dehumanizing. It can look like chaos, but it's.

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Regular people, it's real people. And the chaos is not out of nowhere. There's a long history of how other countries, other facets of this world have really shaped how Haiti is. There was the US occupation from 1915 to 1934. Of course, there was the money paid out to France after the Haitian Revolution. All these things affect how Haitian politics play out today. And we have to tell the full story, and not just that single story of chaos, and that people are inherently corrupt and unorganized. Haitian people can organize themselves, and they historically have. They have. They absolutely have. And they can do it again.

[Ali Velshi]

One of the things American street does it also talks about police brutality. It's a gut wrenching part of the book. Fab's love interest Kassim is murdered in Detroit. She makes the point that police brutality existed in both her homes. Quote, you ever seen a kid get stomped on the face with boots? No, I say not stomped in the face, but beaten with a baton on the back by police. Oh, y'all got police brutality too?

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Yeah, these two teenage girls are just comparing their experiences and they are black experiences, global black experiences. There is police brutality in Haiti too, and the perpetrators of violence look like you. And that's a very different perspective, but it's still violent and dehumanizing no matter how you slice it. You know, I grew up in New York City, and if you know anything about New York city in the 80s, it was not the New York that we know now. When I did see police brutality happening, it was on the news. And I wanted with this book to kind of tell that saying, out of the frying pan and into the fire, this idea of the poorest country in the Western hemisphere and quote, and maybe one of the poorest cities in the country. And what sort of comparisons can you make between those two experiences through the lives of teenage girls?

[Ali Velshi]

Thank you. Ibi Zoboi, the author of National Book Award finalist and one of today's Velshi Band Book Club features American street if.

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[Ali Velshi]

Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service ported, 90 plus days with device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card has no cash access and expires in six months.

[Chris Hayes]

Politics Nation on MSNBC is now available as a podcast Every Saturday and Sunday. Host Reverend Al Sharpton approaches the biggest political news of the week through the lens of equality and justice. Driven by his years of work in the civil rights arena, I've spent my.

[Julia Alvarez]

Career advocating for those unjustly killed.

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Search for Politics Nation wherever you're listening and follow and for ad free listening to this show and other MSNBC podcasts. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed, and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Julia Alvarez]

Now is the time.

[Ibi Zoboi]

So we're gonna do it.

[Chris Hayes]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Ibi Zoboi]

How do we strategically align ourselves to.

[Julia Alvarez]

This moment of information, this moment of.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Transition in our country?

[Chris Hayes]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Ali Velshi]

Joining me now is my partner in crime, Hannah Holland. She is the literary editor of the Velshy Band Book Club. These were two tremendous, tremendous stories. They really resonated with me. Despite the fact that the protagonists are.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Young women, it made me think of small acts of courage and especially of your sister. You know, this seems to be something that's a little bit universal within immigrant stories. You're two things at once, right? You're half white, as is the case with Julia Alvarez's halfway Dominican, halfway American. I mean, have you felt that way ever?

[Ali Velshi]

You bring up an interesting point in my book. You're two things at once anyway, when you're an immigrant. But when you are a young woman, you're three things.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Yes.

[Ali Velshi]

Are you American? Are you whatever you were before you became an American? And what are the rules about being a girl? What are the rules about being a young woman? Because in every society, the rules are different for young women than they are for young men. So my sister's upbringing as an immigrant in Canada felt entirely different than mine. In fact, I'm like pink cloud to pink cloud, thinking this is all amazing. She entirely struggled with identity for reasons that were difficult for me to understand. But now when I read these books, I understand why there's an extra layer of complexity about who you are. And then you add on in American street, the idea that the protagonist grows up, fab, grows up without her mother around.

[Ibi Zoboi]

To that end, when I was reading how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents, I was conflicted because part of me as an American woman, I'm reading about how they're more independent, they're standing up to men in their life. And the part of me that was raised that way, where those are good things, I'm like, oh, good for you guys. That's amazing. Like, that's very American. But then you see the reaction to their parents, right? And this is something that's fraught. They're giving up part of their identity and what makes them, you know, well behaved, Catholic, in this instance, young women and becoming more Americanized.

[Ali Velshi]

The thing about when you're going through that process as a young immigrant is what you don't understand is that in 25 years or 40 years, you'll look back at that, and that is the beauty of this country. That's great, but nobody's really enjoying it as they're going through it, because you're struggling. It is a struggle between your faith, what you believe to be your culture, what your parents think is right for you to do, what you see others doing in the mainstream, what you think you're missing out on. You're not realizing at the time that it's all additive, it's all accretive. You're going to be a better human. You're going to be a better. Because of all this.

[Ibi Zoboi]

And I think you read these and you see that, right? Like, the things that the protagonists in both of these books struggle with are the exact sort of things that their classmates are also dealing with. Although in American street, you do, right? Fabiola is from Haiti and her cousins are American. And at first, there's this culture clash, right? She is just so different from them. And then as the walls come down, the acceptance starts to come about, you see? Well, like, it's cliche, but they are similar. And it's kind of the undercurrent of both books.

[Ali Velshi]

Identity is a word that we toss around a lot. We use a lot. But in this context, it's what is expected of me. How do I live my fullest life? How do I realize what my potential is when I also have to meet all these other obligations that are imposed upon me by my family, by this new society, by my old society, then in Ibi Zoboi's case, by the spirits, Right?

[Ibi Zoboi]

And you read this quote to Ibi that. It's one of my favorite in the books. I'm just gonna paraphrase, where the protagonist's cousin is basically saying, are you gonna give all this up? Are you gonna stop believing in voodoo? And she's like, no, this is part of my identity. And it's a beautiful moment where there's acceptance from both the very American cousin and the Haitian cousin that has come so far. I thought that the way Evie portrayed religion in that book is just remarkable. You know, of course, I love magic realism, but to show how religious exists, it's not just like a place, it's not church, where she just goes and checks a box. This is part of who this character is, fundamentally. And even though you're in this environment where religion doesn't have much of a cultural space, she's like, yeah. I mean, this is how I can find grounding the Stories are in her head like, this is a person who's dangerous, this is a Papa Legba figure. And it's just a way for her to figure out who she is, which.

[Ali Velshi]

At that point becomes really relevant. And we go back to how the Garcia girls lost their accents. I mean, just the central theme of that is remarkable. Right? My parents have accents which are different than my sister's accent, which is different from me. And when you're that age, you want to be less different, 100%.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Both books, too, grapple with what has become a mythos, the idea of the American dream. And it looks different in both, right? There's no longer the streets paved with gold sort of mentality that you might read about in turn of the century books. But, you know, you can find community, belonging, a sense of security. And I mean, maybe that is what the American dream is, you know?

[Ali Velshi]

Well, in both books the similarity is a sense of security.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Yes.

[Ali Velshi]

Both books come from a place where either the situation was unstable, stable back home, or you're on the wrong side of politics. And the one thing we don't really register sometimes in America, if you're from here or you've lived here for a long time, is that the best part of America is that if you're on the wrong side of politics, it doesn't matter. Much lower stakes are much lower. Much lower. Yes, you can put up a sign on your lawn for whoever you're voting for. You can wear those stickers. Somebody might say something about it, but generally speaking, it is your right and it is a right protected by the first amendment of our Constitution. And in both of these cases, you're talking about people who come from places where the political situation was so fraught that you are looking for freedom. So of the attributes that America provides, economic attributes are always among the top ones. But all through our immigrant history, it has been about some form of freedom, some form of self realization. So while it may have looked like the streets paved with gold, it's just a different incarnation of, I can live up to a potential here that I may not have been able to back home. I'll take that deal every single time.

[Ibi Zoboi]

So how the Garcia girls lost their accents is written in this reverse chronological way, which I like personally, some books.

[Ali Velshi]

Hence you're the literary editor. You're a much more complicated person than I am. You know me, I like straight stories.

[Ibi Zoboi]

The negative is it can take the teeth out of books. Right? So, for example, this isn't the case with this one. But like, if you read a story and there's a murder. And you read that the character's alive in the beginning, you're like, okay, well, that stake is now gone. Do you like it? What is your interpretation?

[Ali Velshi]

I think it works here. And it's the same experience in movies. If somebody told me, see this movie, it's reverse chronological, I'd say that give me the punchline at the end. It doesn't work. But there are certain movies where it really works or certain books where it really works because it causes your brain to explore the topic differently. And in fact, while our lives are in chronological order, the way we think of our memories or the way we think of our histories is often the other way around. Right. When I'm telling the story of my family in my book, I'm starting from here and I'm working backward. Why am I who I am? Well, in part, because of my parents. Why are my parents how they are? In part because of their parents. I think it can work. And it does work here.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Yeah, I think that's exactly it. The question at the center of Julia Alvarez's book is not will they get there? It's how did they get there?

[Ali Velshi]

The question is how it came to be.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Right? Yeah. Something you know about me is that I'm obsessed with these coming of age narratives. It's definitely my favorite genre.

[Ali Velshi]

Oh, I know.

[Ibi Zoboi]

I just think because it's the most emotionally charged moments in someone's life, it's very critical.

[Ali Velshi]

So, interestingly enough, you and I have not actually had this discussion prior to having. Because basically, the way this works is that you tell me what we're going to read and what we're gonna talk about and who the author is. And I don't question it because it works so well. But this is an interesting thing. This is definitely a place where we weren't coming from the same place on this. You like a lot of these books more than I did, and I say did because I've come around to your perspective on this, that it's a remarkable little microcosm of life. Right. And this is a time when you can identify so many more of them. It's like the color's brighter, right, about what you're experiencing, because as grow older, the colors get a little muted. You got problems in life, but you know how they're gonna unfold. You know how to deal with them. But here you don't. You don't know what power you even have at that age.

[Ibi Zoboi]

And when you're 16, you can't say to yourself, like, this is not gonna be a big deal in a month.

[Ali Velshi]

Correct.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Because a month out of a school year, that's only 10 months. That is absolutely, you know, the core of the.

[Ali Velshi]

And when you're 16, you're not the boss of you.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Right.

[Ali Velshi]

Your teachers might be, your parents might be, someone else might be. And so you've got all that stuff and then you've got how you present to the world in terms of your relationships and your friendships. So, yeah. Have come around to your way of thinking that you can tell more story and learn more things when you tell stories about people coming of age.

[Ibi Zoboi]

I have also exposed myself through the Valshe Band Book Club to genres and books I would never have picked up. And I think that's one of the most.

[Ali Velshi]

That's the point of the series.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Amazing things. Yes, definitely.

[Ali Velshi]

It's actually what most of our members of the Valshe Band Book Club tell me when I meet them out in the world, that I wouldn't have known of that story. Some people have read them and they're fascinated that they've been banned or challenged or removed from bookstores or removed from schools. But most people benefit from the idea that I'm gonna be exposed to something I wouldn't have picked up on my own. Because why would I. It's not a prejudice. It's just. You don't know. Why would I read that story? Why would I read a young adult story as not a young adult? Well, now I understand that. Cause I'm gonna learn something. I'm gonna learn something that I didn't otherwise know. That's gonna make me a more informed person and a better informed citizen. Yeah.

[Ibi Zoboi]

I mean, a shortcoming I have. I'll almost never, if it's for my own reading, pick up a book with a male protagonist. I can't identify as much. It doesn't resonate in. But if you read enough of them, you do.

[Ali Velshi]

It transcends your inability to have it resonate or for you to identify. That's the trick. Maybe it's not just one. Maybe it is just one. Sometimes you read one book about something that you have nothing to do with and it suddenly clicks. And maybe you'll realize how the similarities between that protagonist and you. And maybe you'll realize that there are no similarities and it's just an interesting story.

[Ibi Zoboi]

I don't think we've ever shared this on the Veil Sheep and Book Club, but. But the first episode of the first season with George M. Johnson, when that book was initially put on our radar.

[Ali Velshi]

All boys aren't blue.

[Ibi Zoboi]

All boys aren't blue. We did a call out to mystorybilshi.com and someone wrote in and said, I've never met a black person. I've never met a queer person. I'm an older woman. I think she was from North Dakota. And she said, but this book has changed my life. I can't believe how much of myself I see in this story that is opposite of who I am.

[Ali Velshi]

And that is one of the most challenged books around.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Yes.

[Ali Velshi]

I mean, it's really the poster child for banned books. And George's view of the whole thing is if you don't like it, don't read it. Which is basically our view. You don't have to stop somebody else from being able to access this stuff. Because so many of these books we've read do resonate with certain people, certain individuals, and where it matters, where you end up with these books that, as we've discussed, stop people from feeling shame or doing things that are harmful to them. It does tend to be young people.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Yeah.

[Ali Velshi]

Those are the books that change lives.

[Ibi Zoboi]

And it speaks to the power of literature. Some people view book banning and censorship as a whole as like a sort of a non issue because people watch tv. Right. Like they look at social media. But these books still resonate year after year, generation after generation. There are certain books that we're covering this season that absolutely have that level of impact.

[Ali Velshi]

And a TV show can never accomplish everything that was in a book, right?

[Ibi Zoboi]

Yes.

[Ali Velshi]

Virtually nobody. And I'm a big consumer of TV shows and movies. We do love it, but virtually never does anyone who loved a book say that it was better as a movie. Partially because the book let you paint the picture. The book means that every human on earth can form their own picture about something that the author wrote. What a remarkable transaction. Where else in life does that happen? Where the creator and the consumer have a unique identity.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Yeah. And a one on one relationship.

[Ali Velshi]

A one on one relationship.

[Ibi Zoboi]

I mean, that doesn't exist.

[Ali Velshi]

Every reader's got a different relationship with the book, its characters and the author. You know, some people really love audiobooks. I struggle with them because I invent a voice.

[Ibi Zoboi]

And also reading for me is such an intimate, quiet moment to hear a voice. It sometimes pulls me out.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah. And I look, I love that. It makes it more accessible to a lot of people. Definitely people who don't have time. So they do it when they're running or they do it when they're driving. It's great. You and I disagree on this because I read my books electronically just because I travel so much. So the Kindle goes into the bag and you like it hard copies? Yeah, you like the hard copies. And I get it. Like, I totally get that for you. That's a more sensory experience. It probably causes you to consume it slightly differently than I do.

[Ibi Zoboi]

And you know, I live in New York City, this tiny apartment overflowing with books. I'm like, oh, this is how it's supposed to be. This is what my comfort level is.

[Ali Velshi]

That's what a literary editor's apartment should be. We're featuring just one book in our next episode of the Vel Band Book Club. It is one of those genre defining works of literature that cannot be readily paired with anything else. It is a true contemporary classic and wholly original in its depiction of grief, friendship, morality and the brutality of war. Quote how do you generalize war is hell? But that's not the half of it. Because war is also mystery and terror and adventure and courage and discovery and holiness and pity and despair and longing and love. War is nasty. War is fun. War is thrilling. War is drudgery. War makes you a man. War makes you dead. End quote. That is from the Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien I am telling you, do not miss that meeting of the Belshi Band Book Club. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. When you do, you'll be able to listen to the Belshi Band Book Club podcast ad free, along with other MSNBC originals like Prosecuting Donald Trump, how to win 2024 and why is this Happening with Chris Hayes Without Ads? Plus, you'll get episodes of Season two of the Velshi Band Book Club One Week early, as well as exclusive bonus content from this and other podcasts. Sign up now on Apple Podcasts. I'm the host of the Velshi Band Book Club, Ali Velshi. Our producer and literary editor is Hannah Holland. Our executive producer is Rebecca Dryden alongside our senior producers Jared Blake and Dina Moss, with production support from Associate producer Nicole McReynolds. Our coordinating producer is Lily Korva. The executive producer of MSNBC Audio is Aisha Turner. The head of Audio production is Bryson Barnes, alongside our audio engineers Katherine Anderson, Katie Lau and Bob Mallory.

[Chris Hayes]

Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Julia Alvarez]

I do think it's worth being very.

[Ibi Zoboi]

Clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Chris Hayes]

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