Listen to “Trumpland with Alex Wagner”

Summary

Trumpland with Alex Wagner – Detailed Summary

Release Date: January 24, 2025

Introduction

In the inaugural episode of "Trumpland with Alex Wagner," MSNBC’s Alex Wagner delves into the tumultuous return of Donald Trump to the White House as the 47th President of the United States. This episode examines the immediate actions taken by the Trump administration, particularly the controversial pardoning of approximately 1,500 individuals involved in the January 6th Capitol insurrection. Wagner aims to provide a comprehensive, on-the-ground perspective by engaging with those directly affected by Trump’s policies and actions.

Trump’s Immediate Actions and Pardons

Shortly after his inauguration, President Trump made a decisive move by issuing blanket pardons to around 1,500 defendants associated with the January 6th insurrection. This unprecedented decision has sparked significant debate and concern among various stakeholders, including law enforcement officers, the families of victims, and the general public.

• Pardons Trigger Mixed Reactions
  • Ben Pollock (00:06:07) expresses deep sense of betrayal: “There are no words to describe this moment other than I've been betrayed by my country” (00:12:04).
  • Michael Fanone (00:03:32), a former Capitol Police officer, staunchly defends Trump's actions, stating, “I would die for the man” (00:03:32).

Impact on January 6th Defendants and Their Families

The episode features poignant interactions with family members of those pardoned, highlighting the emotional and social ramifications of Trump’s decisions.

• Ben Pollock’s Story

  • Ben Pollock, a father awaiting the release of his children who were charged in connection with January 6th, shares his anguish and sense of injustice. He recounts, “I would have died for him that day” (00:13:53) and criticizes the selective nature of the pardons, emphasizing that violent offenders were swiftly pardoned while others, perceived as more culpable, remain incarcerated.
  • Pollock discusses his efforts to seek protective orders against individuals pardoned by Trump, fearing for his and his family’s safety. He remarks, “I would never forgive the officers... who failed to bear witness to what they experienced on January 6th” (00:30:11).

• Responses from Supporters and Critics

  • A small group of Trump supporters gathers outside the D.C. jail, celebrating the pardons with music and singing. However, this celebration is overshadowed by tension when rumors of mass releases spark a brief, chaotic attempt to enter the facility (07:58).
  • Michael Fanone provides a critical perspective, asserting, “They took that day, they are responsible for themselves” (00:18:17), distancing Trump from the violent actions of the rioters.

Law Enforcement Perspectives

The episode sheds light on the strained relationship between Trump’s administration and law enforcement agencies.

• Michael Fanone’s Testimony

  • Fanone recounts his harrowing experience during the January 6th attack, where he was assaulted by rioters: “They took that day, they are responsible for themselves” (00:18:17).
  • He criticizes the lack of support from the Metropolitan Police Department, highlighting the resignation letter he penned after witnessing the collusion between Trump’s supporters and law enforcement: “go fuck yourselves” (00:33:19).

• Police Department’s Silence

  • When questioned, Chief Pamela Smith of the Metropolitan Police Department refrains from commenting on the pardons, leaving officers without official support or statements (00:33:39).

Personal Narratives and Emotional Toll

Wagner interviews individuals who have been directly affected by the events of January 6th and the subsequent pardons.

• Rachel Powell’s Experience

  • Known as the “Pink Hat Lady,” Powell discusses her role during the insurrection and her frustration with the selective pardoning process. She questions the fairness of her own release while other perceived criminals remain unpardoned: “Why do those people get pardons? Because they're guilty...” (00:17:12).

• Robert Morse’s Transformation

  • Morse, a former Army Ranger convicted for his actions on January 6th, reflects on his time in prison and his unwavering support for Trump. He emphasizes Trump’s resilience and dedication, stating, “this man is not a quitter... I have no absolute right to quit on him” (00:20:32).

Broader Implications and Future Outlook

The episode concludes with a somber reflection on the state of American democracy and the enduring fractures exacerbated by Trump’s presidency.

• Fractured Democracy

  • Wagner underscores the lasting damage to the peaceful transfer of power and the erosion of democratic norms: “The fracture that began that day... is nowhere close to being repaired” (00:34:29).

• Call for Accountability

  • Ben Pollock urges journalists and citizens to hold elected officials accountable for their actions and the pardoning of violent offenders: “I would hope that journalists seize this moment and refuse to allow anyone in Congress or any elected official to escape taking a side on these pardons” (00:30:11).

Conclusion

"Trumpland with Alex Wagner" offers a compelling examination of Donald Trump's return to power and its immediate consequences. Through in-depth interviews and on-the-ground reporting, Wagner captures the complex emotions and divergent perspectives surrounding the pardoning of January 6th defendants. The episode highlights the deep divisions within American society and the challenges that lie ahead in healing the wounds inflicted by political turmoil and insurrection.

Notable Quotes

• Michael Fanone (00:03:32): “I would die for the man. I would have died for him that day.”
• Ben Pollock (00:12:04): “I've been betrayed by my country.”
• Rachel Powell (00:17:12): “Why do those people get pardons? Because they're guilty, but they were never brought to justice.”
• Robert Morse (00:20:32): “I can't speak for anybody else, but since he's not going to quit on the American people, I have no absolute right to quit on him.”

Production Credits

"Trumpland with Alex Wagner" is produced by Max Jacobs along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. The associate producer is Jamaris Perez, with Enrique Larreal handling audio, and Liam Lee and Greg Papura on camera. Audio engineers include Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, with Bryson Barnes as the technical director. The executive producers are Matthew Alexander for Alex Wagner Tonight and Aisha Turner for MSNBC Audio.

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This summary encapsulates the primary discussions, emotional narratives, and critical insights shared in the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

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[Ben Pollock]

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[Alex Wagner]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite show.

[Alex Wagner]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for MSNBC Daily at msnbc.com.

[Alex Wagner]

A note to listeners this podcast contains some explicit language.

[Michael Fanone]

Trump is now officially 47th President of the United States.

[Alex Wagner]

That happened at noon on the dot.

[Michael Fanone]

He then took the oath of office.

[Alex Wagner]

Very shortly thereafter, his second inaugural address. During every single day of the Trump administration, I will very simply put America first. Earlier this week, on a very cold afternoon in Washington, D.C. donald John Trump was sworn in as the 47th president of the United States. Trump was inside the Capitol Rotunda surrounded by the political, financial and cultural elite. But outside of that room, the ceremony was watched by millions of people the world over. Some were anxious, others were excited. Everyone was wondering about what a second Trump term will mean for immigration, the economy, the environment, America and the globe. I'm Alex Wagner, host of Alex WAGNER Tonight on MSNBC. And for the first 100 days of this new administration, I'm going to be taking a break from the anchor chair to get out into the field. I'll be going to the front lines and speaking to the players and the principals on both the issuing and receiving ends of Trump's policies. We're calling this new show Trumpland with Alex Wagner. These are conversations we can't always have on TV with people you definitely don't usually see on TV. You'll get a 360 degree view of what's happening both at home and overseas now that Donald Trump is once again President of the United States. This week I've reporting on a group of people nervously anticipating what President Trump might do on his very first week back in the White House. President Donald Trump, not wasting any time getting down to business, the convicted defendants of the January 6th insurrection, as well as their families and the police officers who were the victims of the attack itself we want a unified country, they said. Don't talk about the J6 hostages that you're going to be releasing today. Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Michael Fanone]

Oh, absolutely. I would die for the man. I would have died for him that day.

[Ben Pollock]

There are no words to describe this moment other than I've been betrayed by my country.

[Alex Wagner]

Within hours of taking office, President Trump issued full pardons to roughly 1,500 J6 defendants. So on this first episode of Trump Land with Alex Wagner, I'm headed to D.C. but not for the inauguration. We're headed to jail.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front.

[Alex Wagner]

What issue matters to you the most?

[Rachel Maddow]

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the President's policies and promises.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Rachel Maddow]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free.

[Alex Wagner]

Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.

[Rachel Maddow]

Together, we can truly make America great again.

[Alex Wagner]

We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years, and we're going to.

[Rachel Maddow]

Be following every twist and turn for.

[Alex Wagner]

The first 100 days.

[Rachel Maddow]

We'll be bringing you the latest updates.

[Alex Wagner]

And analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha Calneck, and me, Mark Stone for Trump 100 every weekday at 6:00am, wherever you get your podcast.

[Rachel Maddow]

The first 100 days. Bills are passed, executive orders are signed, and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on Ms. Five nights a week.

[Michael Fanone]

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Michael Fanone]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddows show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Ben Pollock]

Thank you, President, for signing those pardons. And as always, as I've told everybody, remember, the President adheres to his promises. Promises made, promises kept, promises made, promises kept, promises made, promises.

[Alex Wagner]

On the campaign trail, Donald Trump talked repeatedly about pursuing pardons for January 6th inmates if he was elected. You could read a lot into the fact that he referred to them as hostages. But this outcome, the blanket pardon of 1500 criminal defendants involved in the Capitol insurrection, is just about the most extreme version of what this might have looked like nobody really saw this coming. Even Trump's running mate, just eight days before being sworn in as Vice President, JD Vance indicated quite strongly that violent offenders would not be granted pardons.

[Ben Pollock]

If you protested peacefully on January 6th, and you've had Merrick Garland's Department of Justice treat you like a gang member, you should be pardoned. If you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned.

[Alex Wagner]

But of course, that is exactly what Donald Trump did, literally hours after he was sworn in as president. And there was no better audience for that news on Monday night than the one outside the detention facility in Washington where an estimated 22 January Sixers have been locked up. D.C. jail.

[Ben Pollock]

Praise God. Thank you so much, Lord Jesus, for doing the good work that we know that you do. Holy Spirit, you're welcome. Here outside the D.C. gulag, we will receiving our J6 hostages by midnight. This is going to happen.

[Alex Wagner]

The jail is a multi story concrete building. From where we're standing across the street, you can see an intake area with large gates that open for vehicles and barbed wire spooled around the tops of the building. People are gathered in a small open patch of dead grass. It sloped downhill and there's ice everywhere. But for the crowd of 50 ish die hard January 6th supporters, this might as well be a summer barbecue. There's music and singing and dancing. All that's missing are the hot dogs. Put them hands up, Jason. Put them hands up.

[Michael Fanone]

Grandpa.

[Alex Wagner]

Let's go. Let's celebrate for our feet. A small group of family and friends has been meeting outside this facility to hold a vigil and sing the national anthem while on the phone with the inmates inside. They've been doing this every night for over 900 days and they're getting impatient. Hey, hey, DC Gulag. Let our people go. Let our people go. Let our people go. What have you heard about what the President is doing tonight?

[Michael Fanone]

I heard everybody's getting out of jail tonight. We've had several released across the country.

[Alex Wagner]

But no one's come out of D.C. tonight.

[Michael Fanone]

Not yet.

[Alex Wagner]

I wasn't here, but what was the reaction like when you heard the news?

[Michael Fanone]

It's amazing, you know, it's what everybody's been waiting for for four years.

[Alex Wagner]

One of the main organizers of these vigils is Mickey Whithoff. They call her Mama Mickey and she's become a second mother for countless January 6th defendants and their families. Mama Mickey is a no bullshit kind of presence at these vigils. Someone who both advocates loudly for the inmates inside the jail and keeps their supporters outside of it in line. She's also the mother of Ashley Babbitt, the only January 6th protester who was shot and killed by Capitol Police. You may have seen the video. A woman trying to climb through one of the doors where glass had been broken out as the mob breaches an area of the Capitol. Until she's taken down by a shot from a Capitol Police officer. A shot that proved to be fatal. Babbitt was a 35 year old Air Force veteran who had traveled to D.C. from California to be there that day. J6ers consider Babbitt a martyr for their cause and Mama Mickey, a representative for family members of those prosecuted. She says she's spoken to Donald Trump multiple times. So the reaction was like, was anybody surprised or everybody thought he was going to let everyone out?

[Michael Fanone]

He said he was. And when I talked to him last week, he said, tell him that he loves him, keep their chins up. And he's been supportive throughout. He's called the vigil and talked to them over the phone. And I am not surprised. And I think anybody that was there that day, even the men that weren't perfectly well behaved, have done enough time and it's time for him to come home.

[Alex Wagner]

You'll have to forgive the music in the background, but as I mentioned, this gathering was part vigil, part protest, part celebration. Do you think President Trump's gonna suffer any political fallout from parting people?

[Michael Fanone]

He suffers political fallout for whatever he.

[Alex Wagner]

Does, but I just mean for the. There are some folks who were in jail who assaulted law officers.

[Michael Fanone]

There were lots of law officers that assaulted American citizens. You know, and if you think about the fact that, you know, they said that everybody came to overthrow the government, if you think about the fact that it was a gun toting populace of the United States of America that showed up on the Capitol grounds, and the only weapon used was the one that was used to kill my daughter. So American citizens did not show up to take over the government with water bottles and flag poles.

[Alex Wagner]

I just wonder if you think the whole country's gonna see it that way.

[Michael Fanone]

No.

[Alex Wagner]

So you think he's taking a risk?

[Michael Fanone]

Absolutely.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm sure you feel like you're gonna have his back for this. What does that look like?

[Michael Fanone]

Trump supporters will always be Trump supporters. Haters might always be Trump haters unless they give him a chance to be America's president, which I believe he will be a president for all Americans. I believe right now, you know, with the system we have with the Democrats and Republicans, and I think that our. Our leaders, they divide us by example.

[Alex Wagner]

As we moved around the crowd, there was an older gentleman giving a speech while holding a huge American flag, one that he says he carried with him on January 6th. It's gigantic, bigger than the bedspread on a California king. It's also flying upside down.

[Michael Fanone]

1,475 days.

[Alex Wagner]

You heard it from first from mama.

[Ben Pollock]

Mickey. God bless you. God bless the USA.

[Alex Wagner]

His name is Ben Pollock and he's here from Florida. I'm with msnbc. Yeah, so we're. We're out here. We're trying to understand what's happening. Yeah, it's about time.

[Ben Pollock]

I got to talk to you guys.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I've been waiting. Yeah, I'm sure we've been. Well. Well, here we are.

[Ben Pollock]

Yeah, the last day.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Well, we're the beginning of a whole new chapter.

[Ben Pollock]

That's right.

[Alex Wagner]

So you're. You've been out here holding vigil. Who do you. Who do you have inside?

[Michael Fanone]

I got Jonathan Pollock and Olivia Pollock.

[Alex Wagner]

We came up.

[Michael Fanone]

We were all as a family.

[Ben Pollock]

Came up on January 6th, and then with our church.

[Alex Wagner]

And I got.

[Ben Pollock]

I got friends, Michael Perkins, and he's gonna be released out of Coleman in Florida. And then I got another buddy on an ankle monitor.

[Michael Fanone]

All my friends are locked up right now.

[Alex Wagner]

What happened with your. Is your son and daughter?

[Ben Pollock]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

What. What exactly. What are they in for?

[Ben Pollock]

They're in for about everything.

[Michael Fanone]

They were.

[Alex Wagner]

We looked up the exact charges and just about everything isn't a bad Description. Jonathan faced 17 counts and multiple alleged felonies, including assaulting officers with a dangerous weapon. In Jonathan's case, that meant charging at police with a flagpole. Among Jonathan's other charges were violent entry, disorderly conduct, and theft of government property. Olivia was charged with multiple felony offenses along similar lines as her brother. She also assaulted police officers who were trying to contain the riot outside the Capitol. Before the two were arrested last year, they were on the lam, running from law enforcement and evading accountability for three years. Now their trial, which was supposed to take place next month, has been scrapped, their charges dropped and their Release from the D.C. jail imminent. Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Michael Fanone]

Oh, absolutely. I would die for the man.

[Ben Pollock]

I would have died for him that day.

[Alex Wagner]

I would die for the man. Here's this father out here in almost zero degree weather, flying a ten foot long American flag, waiting for his children to be released from jail. And his commitment to the guy who landed him in this nightmare is Unwavering. So, yeah, I believe Ben Pollock. The police had been maintaining a loose perimeter in front of the jail, insisting everyone stay across the street in the designated vigil area. But at one point, there's some type of commotion coming from inside the jail just beyond the glass doors that block our entry. I think someone's getting out. Should we go across the street? Yeah. All right. So. Okay. People start to run towards the front entrance of the jail. In a matter of seconds, there's a large crowd. Dozens of police stream out of the building and from down the street to form a barricade in front of the glass. The loose perimeter they had been maintaining is no longer so loose. The energy in the air is frenzied. Watch out, Leon. Watch out, watch out, watch out, watch out. It's like your mound of ice. But whatever anyone initially thought, it does not appear anyone is being released. Police start to push us back to the park slowly and thankfully without issue.

[Ben Pollock]

May I have your attention, please? You guys can protest and say whatever you'd like from the comfort of the sidewalk and the park, Please do not try and come across the street. Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

It ended up just being a brief interaction, but it was tense and it was hard to avoid how on the nose it all felt. January 6th. Participants and their family members rushing towards a line of officers. A reminder of how quickly a crowd can become a mob. And then around 10pm, a couple of well dressed guys, perhaps just arriving after an inaugural ball, come out to announce that two prisoners, brothers Andrew and Matthew Valentine, have been released unceremoniously through a back exit. And it appears that's probably it for tonight. By 11pm, police officers start leaving and so do. We're back the next day. January 21st, bright and early. Ish. And so is the crowd. Very, very slowly, inmates from the DC jail are being released. Did you get out today? Yes, just a little bit ago. And you weren't here? Yes. You weren't here. I wasn't here for the last couple weeks because I was waiting to be re sentenced. This is Rachel Powell, better known as Bullhorn lady or Pink Hat lady, along with her friend Cynthia Hughes. According to prosecutors, on January 6, Powell was part of a group of rioters who used a cardboard pipe as a battering ram to break a window at the Capitol. She also used an ice axe for a different window. Powell wore a recognizable pink hat and used a bullhorn to give rioters instructions, telling them that they needed to coordinate together if they were going to take the building. Powell had only been at the D.C. jail for a few weeks after being moved from Hazleton Federal Prison in West Virginia. She was found guilty of a total of nine felony and misdemeanor offenses and served only one year of her five year sentence. The thing I wonder is, was there ever any moment in jail where you were like, why am. Like, why am I here? You know, did you ever have any frustration with President Trump? Did you ever feel like, you know, he had landed you guys in jail? No. No, absolutely not. Because he really, I believe he really just wants to make America great again. Now, why was I sitting in prison when Anthony Fauci is loose? Why am I sitting in prison when Liz Cheney is loose? Why do those people get pardons? Because they're guilty, but they were never brought to justice. And yet me, a mom, I made a mistake and broke a window at the Capitol. I'm sorry, but do I have to lose my whole life for it when we have these criminals running the government that now have pardons? That bothered me.

[Michael Fanone]

Donald Trump is not responsible for January 6th. Okay?

[Alex Wagner]

Grown men and grown women, whatever actions.

[Michael Fanone]

They took that day, they are responsible for themselves.

[Alex Wagner]

And the country spoke.

[Michael Fanone]

The country spoke loud and proud on November 5th. And they said, Donald Trump is not responsible for January 6th.

[Alex Wagner]

And that's what we believe. We met another recent exoneree, A younger man, 31 years old, named Robert Morse. Morse has curly long hair, which was being kept in place under a bright red Make America Great Again hat. Morse was one of several people who had been released from a different detention center, but came to Washington to show his support. So my name's Alex. Nice to meet you. When did you get out last night? 11:45pm and where were you?

[E]

I was in the Pittsburgh halfway house.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay.

[E]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Can you talk? So you were in a halfway house?

[E]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

Can you explain how that you ended up being there?

[E]

Sure. So on June 11, 2021, I was arrested for my actions in January 6th.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[E]

I spent the next three and a half years in prison. And then on August 29th of last year, I was released from prison to the halfway house in Pittsburgh.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay.

[E]

And that's where I remained until last night. And instead of going home and going to sleep like I really wish I did right now, I decided to drive here.

[Alex Wagner]

In May of 2023, Morse was sentenced to 66 months for several charges, including assaulting, resisting, or impeding officers with a dangerous weapon. Before January 6th, Morse had served as an Army Ranger and did three tours in Afghanistan. He told me he now feels like a new man.

[E]

I've grown accustomed to being a felon. I've grown accustomed to having weight on my back and essentially trying to get used to the fact that my former life was just eradicated. You know, half of my friends and family speak to me anymore. My brothers completely disown me. My dad, who raised me to fall in love with the Founding Fathers, read the Declaration of independence on 4 July. Barely even speaks to me. So this has not been easy. You know, when the Declaration of Independence ends with the last lens of them pledging their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to each other, we kind of know what that's like to have it all taken from us. So it was a beautiful thing and almost like God's poetry to have it slowly returned with the slate being wiped clean and being free at last.

[Alex Wagner]

Let me ask you something. You know, you've been through this whole thing.

[E]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

If Trump comes out and says, this is an issue, that I need you guys to come out for me. I need you guys to show up for me. It may mean taking to the streets. Do you think that the people who just served, you know, years or months or weeks in prison would do that again for him?

[E]

I can't speak for everybody, but I can speak for myself. And the answer to that question would be yes. I think that Donald Trump is the only politician that we've seen in a long time that is not only willing to keep his word, but also who's not willing to back down when he's up against the wall. I mean, this man's been indicted, he's been attacked, he's been shot at. Hell, I mean, name anybody else that would have been willing to go through that stuff. And he's admitted that he's lost billions of dollars by being president. And so, I mean, whether you like him or you hate him, you got to respect that this man is not a quitter. And so if this man really needed us to show up somewhere, I can't speak for anybody else, but since he's not going to quit on the American people, I have no absolute right to quit on him. So I would show up.

[Alex Wagner]

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll speak with someone who has risked everything to set the record straight on January 6th, and we'll find out what Trump's pardons have meant for him.

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News, and all MSNBC Original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Alex Wagner]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? New York Times tech reporter Kate Conger on Elon Musk in the Trump 2.0.e of other tech leadership is looking now at what Musk has been able to accomplish by aligning himself so closely with Trump and wanting to follow suit. And it is this very kind of transparent favor trading that's going on throughout the industry right now, where people are feeling like, okay, I can cozy up to the President and that's going to have a beneficial impact for my business. That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow welcome back to Trump Land. When you talk to friends and family members and the actual January 6th inmates themselves, there is a profound sense of victimhood, of grievance, a deep belief that they were wronged by the federal government and the Department of Justice. Very rarely do any of these folks acknowledge the violence of that day, and if they do, they often blame it on a conspiracy theory that January 6th was an inside job, as if to absolve themselves. There is no proof of that, of course, and the record also plainly shows that January 6th was not a victimless crime. Ashley Babbitt was not the only person who died as a result of January 6th. Police officer Brian Sicknick died in the hospital after he was attacked at the Capitol. Countless law enforcement officers experienced lingering injuries and profound trauma. Police officers Howie Liebengood, Gunther Hashida, Kyle de Freitag and Jeffrey Smith all later died by suicide. During this trip, we were in touch with several current and former members of the Capitol Police who witnessed and were attacked at the Capitol on January 6th. One of those men was Michael Fanon. You might remember him. Fanon was an Officer for the D.C. metropolitan Police Department who was tased in the neck by a rioter. Right after he was attacked, Fanon suffered a heart attack and lost consciousness. Another rioter then dragged him into the crowd where a pro Trump mob began beating him to the brink of death. A few months later, Fanon testified to the January 6th committee about what had happened.

[Ben Pollock]

At one point I came face to face with an attacker who repeatedly lunged for me and attempted to remove my firearm. I heard chanting from some in the crowd, get his gun and kill him. With his own gun.

[Alex Wagner]

He said that the rioters called him a traitor and that they only stopped their violent attack after Fanon pleaded that he has children. Fanon resigned from the force 11 months after January 6, reportedly ending his 20 year career in law enforcement with a resignation letter written on a napkin that read, go fuck yourselves. On Tuesday, my colleague Peter Alexander asked President Trump about his decision to pardon DJ Rodriguez, the man who tased Fanon during the January 6th insurrection. President Trump didn't have a clear answer.

[Ben Pollock]

You would agree that it's never acceptable to assault a police officer. So then, if I can, among those, you pardon DJ Rodriguez. He drove a stun gun into the neck of a D.C. police officer who was abducted by the mob that day.

[Alex Wagner]

He later confessed on video to the.

[Ben Pollock]

FBI and pleaded guilty for his crimes. Why does he deserve a pardon?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I don't know. Was it a pardon? Because we're looking at commutes and we're looking at pardons. Okay, well, we'll take a look at everything, but I can say this. Murderers today are not even charged. We'd had an interview planned with Fanon the day after the mass pardons, but in the morning, we got word that he was heading to the Prince William County Courthouse in Virginia to seek a protective order against several of the people who had just been pardoned by President Trump for their involvement in the Capitol attack. We were still able to reach him, but by phone. Me inside our car outside of the D.C. detention center, and Michael Fanone heading to the courthouse. I'm ready. I'm ready. Are you there, Michael? Mr. Fanon, I'm here. Hey, thank you for doing this.

[Ben Pollock]

Of course.

[Alex Wagner]

So I'm outside of D.C. jail. I was here last night, and I've been, you know, trying to get a sense of how people are processing the moment. And I. I think it probably doesn't surprise you that the families of the inmates are very excited. They feel like Trump has really delivered for them. And I've been wondering how this is all going over with you. You know, what's your reaction to the, you know, the pardons and the. The news of the day?

[Ben Pollock]

I mean, it's. I don't. There's no. There are no words to describe this moment other than I've been betrayed by my country.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Ben Pollock]

I've been betrayed by those that supported the former president, now President of the United States. I've been betrayed by his political opponents, the Democratic Party have been betrayed by law enforcement.

[Alex Wagner]

Were you surprised that he pardoned basically almost all of them and commuted the sentences of the rest.

[Ben Pollock]

Donald Trump announced his candidacy in Waco, Texas, the scene of one of the bloodiest conflicts between the American fringe extremist movement and law enforcement. That's where he chose to announce that he was running for president. And he's been saying he was going to pardon each and every one of these violent criminals since day one this morning.

[Alex Wagner]

You were going to seek a protective order. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Ben Pollock]

I mean, listen, once those charges were dismissed and they received pardons, essentially, you know, in addition to being released from prison, there's no longer any order in place preventing these individuals from contacting myself and my family. These are individuals who violently assaulted me. I was the victim in these criminal cases. And in Trump's Department of Justice, these people go free, and I have no, no recourse to protect myself and my family. So I'm seeking a protective order. I don't know if it's gonna be granted, to be totally honest with you.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. It occurs to me that this is also sending a separate message to people who would otherwise operate extrajudicially outside the bounds of the law to do Trump's bidding. Right. He basically now has, well, at least like 1100, 1200, 1300 people who have proven that they are willing to do whatever they need to to keep Trump in power. And now he's just freed all of them.

[Ben Pollock]

It says this. It says this is the age of lawlessness. If you are a Trump supporter and you commit violent crimes on Trump's behalf, Donald Trump will free you.

[Alex Wagner]

I wonder what you make of. You know, it's. Trump is, as you point out, he's president. He owns the Department of Justice. What about the other Republicans in office? I mean, does it concern you that the leadership in Congress seems kind of intent on forgetting what actually happened on January 6th?

[Ben Pollock]

I don't think they're intent on forgetting what happened on January 6th. I think they're intent on changing the story of January 6th to a patriotic event in which thousands of American patriots fought back against the deep state. That's going to be the new narrative. You know, I will be the villain in this story.

[Alex Wagner]

So rewriting history in real time. Correct. You're one of only a handful of law enforcement officers who've spoken out about this. Do you feel like, you know, other folks are watching this and have watched this all play out and are just trying to keep their heads down because they're worried about their own safety?

[Ben Pollock]

I will never forgive the officers of the Metropolitan Police Department, U.S. capitol Police, who failed to bear witness to what they experienced on January 6th. I believe wholeheartedly that had there been hundreds of officers lined up to testify about their experience instead of four, that we may not be in this position that we are today. That being said, you know, it doesn't just stop at the law enforcement officers. It stops at every American. It stops at anyone who has been adversely affected by Donald Trump and his surrogates and supporters and anyone who has seen their neighbor adversely affected by Donald Trump and his surrogates and who refuse to step up, speak out. I would hope that journalists seize this moment and refuse to allow anyone in Congress or any elected official to escape taking a side on these pardons.

[Alex Wagner]

Can you tell me what else you're doing today? Like, so you've already gone to file the protective order, is that right? Are you on your way to do that?

[Ben Pollock]

I'm, I'm, I'm on my way to the courthouse now to file the protective order. After that, I am gonna go with my ex wife and help her is her first firearm.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, wow.

[Ben Pollock]

This is very real for us. I don't know if you followed some of the incidents involving my mother, but, you know, she's been swatted, she's received threats. I've been confronted in public places and threatened. And she recently had someone throw a bag of feces on her.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow.

[Ben Pollock]

While she was out raking the leaves in her front yard. This is, this is very real. And unfortunately, law enforcement has been feckless in its ability or attempts to protect me and my family.

[Alex Wagner]

That just, I don't get it. You know, I'm on the outside. I've never been in law enforcement, but how can cops.

[Ben Pollock]

I already know your question, Alex, and I'm going to answer it for you. The idea that police officers in this country, law enforcement officers, are stewards of the Constitution is bullshit. I was not a steward of the Constitution. I didn't subvert it, but I looked at it as an impediment in doing my job. My job was to put bad guys in bad places. And so the American law enforcement officer responds in a positive way when Donald Trump says things like, we're going to suspend the Constitution and we're going to let you loose in these communities. We're going to get rid of crime in a day. We're going to let you go out there and do your job, which is just a dog whistle for, you know, beat the shit out of everybody that doesn't comply. And that's why you can't rely on police officers. And police departments to protect you in this age of government lawlessness.

[Alex Wagner]

It's staggering to me that the people who assaulted law enforcement are being pardoned and standing. Law enforcement is okay with that. I don't get it. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but it's still just an alignment between law enforcement and Trump that is seems real unbreakable if they can get with this.

[Ben Pollock]

I mean, listen, my friend at the Washington Post asked Chief Pamela Smith at the Metropolitan Police Department to comment on this. And you know what her response was? No comment. The chief of the Metropolitan Police department in Washington, D.C. yeah, these officers were violently assaulted by these individuals. Has no comment. And it's all fear. It's the fear of Donald Trump taking office. And what retribution lies in store for me if I simply speak the truth and say that this is an outrage. Well, you know, this is. This is that example of evil exists and persists when good men do nothing. America is doing nothing.

[Alex Wagner]

We reached out to Michael Fanon the day after that phone call. He told us that the process to seek protective orders was a lot more difficult than anything he had expected. And to carry them out, he would have to find the location for each individual he was concerned about and serve them papers in person. And even then, the protective order would only last two weeks. He told our producers, quote, that America simply doesn't give a shit about justice. January 6th was a profoundly devastating moment for American democracy. The peaceful transfer of power, once a sacrosanct part of our unique system of self governance, was trampled. And what's clear this week is that the fracture that began that day, the tear in the fabric of our democracy, is nowhere close to being repaired. With Trump's elevation as the 47th president, the opportunity to degrade not just systems and institutions, but the truth itself, those opportunities will continue to present themselves in ways we can't yet imagine. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode of Trumpland with Alex Wagner. You'll be able to find us in the Alex Wagner Tonight podcast feed or just search Trumpland with Alex Wagner. To get this show and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. Just subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. As a subscriber, you'll also get exclusive bonus content you won't want to miss out on, especially as this new administration gets underway. Trumpland with Alex Wagner is produced by Max Jacobs along with Julia D'Angelo and Kay Guerrero. Our associate producer is Jamaris Perez. Our crew is Enrique Larreal on audio and Liam Lee and Greg Papura on camera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is our technical director. Matthew Alexander is the executive producer of Alex Wagner Tonight, and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. And I'm your host, Alex Wagner. We'll see you next week.

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