Reading Rites of Passage

Summary

Velshi Banned Book Club - Episode: Reading Rites of Passage
Release Date: October 17, 2024
Host: Ali Velshi | Produced by: Hannah Holland

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Introduction

In this poignant episode of MSNBC’s Velshi Banned Book Club, host Ali Velshi delves deep into the transformative power of literature as a rite of passage. The episode focuses on two seminal works: Bridge to Terabithia by Katherine Paterson and The Perks of Being a Wallflower by Stephen Chbosky. Through in-depth conversations with these acclaimed authors, Velshi explores themes of friendship, loss, and the profound impact of banned books on young minds.

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“Bridge to Terabithia” with Katherine Paterson

Overview of the Book

Bridge to Terabithia, a Newbery Award-winning novel, encapsulates the innocence and turmoil of childhood. The story follows 10-year-old Jess Aarons and his new friend Leslie Burke as they create an imaginary kingdom called Terabithia. Their bond is abruptly shattered when Leslie tragically drowns, forcing Jess to navigate his grief and the complexities of growing up.

Key Themes:

• Friendship and Imagination: The creation of Terabithia symbolizes the sanctuary that friendship provides against the harsh realities of life.
• Confronting Death: The sudden loss of Leslie introduces young readers to the inevitability of death in a sensitive manner.
• Personal Growth: Jess’s journey post-tragedy underscores resilience and the enduring impact of meaningful relationships.

Author Interview: Katherine Paterson

Katherine Paterson shares her heartfelt motivations behind writing Bridge to Terabithia. She emphasizes the importance of literature as a rehearsal for life’s inevitable challenges, particularly death.

• On Addressing Death in Children's Literature:

  “Books are a wonderful rehearsal for what you're going to have to meet in life, and we're all going to have to meet death.” (07:22)

Paterson recounts a moving story of a reader who found solace in her book after losing a best friend, highlighting the book’s profound emotional resonance.

• Impact of Personal Loss:

  “Bridge to Terabithia was written in reaction to the senseless death of Patterson's own son's best friend.” (01:10)

She defends her portrayal of faith and death against accusations of anti-Christian sentiments, asserting that authentic faith involves grappling with doubts and questions.

• On Faith and Conflict:

  “If we have real faith, then you're going to argue with God.” (09:03)

Paterson also delves into the centrality of friendship in the novel, illustrating how genuine connections provide strength and understanding.

• On Friendship:

  “Bridge to Terabithia is really actually as much about friendship and the power of friendship as it is about death.” (09:45)

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“The Perks of Being a Wallflower” with Stephen Chbosky

Overview of the Book

Stephen Chbosky’s The Perks of Being a Wallflower is a seminal work capturing the essence of adolescent angst, mental health struggles, and the search for identity. Through letters written by the protagonist, Charlie, the novel navigates themes of friendship, love, loss, and the challenges of growing up.

Key Themes:

• Adolescent Anguish: The novel delves into the complexities of teenage emotions, societal pressures, and personal traumas.
• Mental Health: Addressing topics like suicide, rape, and sexual abuse, the book serves as a crucial dialogue starter on mental well-being.
• The Power of Friendship: Charlie’s relationships with Sam and Patrick provide a foundation for his personal growth and self-acceptance.

Author Interview: Stephen Chbosky

Chbosky discusses the profound impact his novel has had on readers, emphasizing the life-saving potential of relatable literature.

• On Receiving Life-Saving Letters:

  “I've received letters from young people that said that they were gonna commit suicide. And they read the book or in some cases, the movie, and they found it. And then they decided to choose life.” (21:34)

He reflects on the importance of cultural touchstones like music and literature in shaping young identities and providing comfort during turbulent times.

• On the Role of Music and Literature:

  “Music…when you're piecing together this mosaic that ultimately becomes your adult identity, these cultural touchstones are everything.” (19:19)

Chbosky also addresses the escalating trend of book banning, particularly of young adult novels, and its detrimental effects on vulnerable readers.

• On Book Banning:

  “Book banning and some of the stuff you were talking about earlier in the show about the democracy is this is a canary in the coal mine and we all know it.” (26:02)

He underscores the urgency of keeping such narratives accessible to provide solace and guidance to those in need.

• On the Life-Saving Nature of Literature:

  “This is the most banned books list. Yes. And… it is a matter of life and death.” (25:03)

Emotional Resonance

Chbosky shares a poignant letter from a young woman saved by his book, illustrating the tangible impact literature can have on individuals facing despair.

“...The Perks of Being a Wallflower gave me a reason to not kill myself. It made me think about everything... Thank you for giving me a chance to do so.” (22:06)

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The Perils of Book Banning

Discussion with Literary Editor: Hannah Holland

Hannah Holland, the literary editor and producer of the Velshi Banned Book Club, joins the conversation to highlight the insidious effects of book banning.

• On the Importance of Unrestricted Access:

  “When you ban books, you are actively stifling discussions that help young people process complex emotions and experiences.” (29:24)

Ali Velshi on Reading as Resistance

Velshi articulates the concept of "reading as resistance," emphasizing that purchasing and reading banned books undermines censorship efforts.

• On Fighting Censorship Through Reading:

  “By reading these books and taking them out from the library or buying them from your local bookshop, you are actively stabbing off censorship.” (37:56)

Holland reinforces this notion, stating that continued support for authors and their works ensures that vital stories remain accessible.

• On Supporting Authors:

  “When you buy their books, it encourages them to write another book... They know they've got supporters.” (38:30)

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Conclusion and Future Episodes

As the episode wraps up, Velshi and Paterson discuss the enduring relevance of these banned books and the collective responsibility to preserve literary freedoms. They highlight upcoming features, including an interview with Jacqueline Woodson about her acclaimed work Brown Girl Dreaming.

• Preview of Next Episode:

  “In the next episode of the Velshi Banned Book Club, we will feature just one critically important novel and an all-new interview. I'll be speaking with the former Young People's Poet Laureate Jacqueline Woodson on her magnum opus, Brown Girl Dreaming.” (38:56)

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Key Takeaways

• Literature as a Lifeline: Both Bridge to Terabithia and The Perks of Being a Wallflower demonstrate how books can provide comfort, understanding, and a means to process difficult emotions.
• The Dangers of Censorship: Banning books removes essential tools for young people to navigate their personal struggles and diminishes their ability to engage in meaningful conversations.
• Collective Responsibility: Supporting banned books through reading and purchasing is a form of resistance against censorship, ensuring that vital stories remain available for future generations.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Katherine Paterson on the Purpose of Books:

  “Books are a wonderful rehearsal for what you're going to have to meet in life, and we're all going to have to meet death.” (07:22)

• Paterson on Friendship:

  “Bridge to Terabithia is really actually as much about friendship and the power of friendship as it is about death.” (09:45)

• Stephen Chbosky on Letters Saving Lives:

  “I've received letters from young people that said that they were gonna commit suicide. And they read the book or in some cases, the movie, and they found it. And then they decided to choose life.” (21:34)

• Chbosky on Book Banning:

  “Book banning and some of the stuff you were talking about earlier in the show about the democracy is this is a canary in the coal mine and we all know it.” (26:02)

• Ali Velshi on Reading as Resistance:

  “By reading these books and taking them out from the library or buying them from your local bookshop, you are actively stabbing off censorship.” (37:56)

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Final Thoughts

Reading Rites of Passage is a compelling episode that not only celebrates the enduring power of literature but also serves as a clarion call against the rising tide of censorship. Through heartfelt discussions with Katherine Paterson and Stephen Chbosky, along with insightful commentary from Hannah Holland, Velshi underscores the indispensable role books play in shaping resilient and empathetic individuals. As the Velshi Banned Book Club continues to spotlight critical works, it champions the notion that reading is indeed an act of resistance—preserving voices that inspire, heal, and transform.

Transcript

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[Katherine Paterson]

Welcome to the Velshi Band Book Club. I'm Ali Velshi. In the very first meeting of this season, we examined two books that most every single American reads 1984 by George Orwell and the Giver by Lois Lowry. These are books that punctuate the American school system, the Giver in elementary school and 1984 in high school. I wanted to continue to explore the idea that there are some indelible books that unite us. The idea that there are books that have a remember where you were power. The idea that these books conjure up the same feelings from the first read, every single read. The idea that some books come into your life at just the right time. These works of literature are rites of passage. We are looking at two important and enduring rites of passage today. Bridge to Terabithia with Katherine Patterson and Perks of Being a Wallflower by Stephen Chbosky. Let's start chronologically with the story you read first, Bridge to Terabithia 10 year old Jess Ahrens has a new neighbor. Her name is Leslie Burke and she's just moved to their rural Virginia town from Arlington. She's imaginative, bullied for being shy, and the only person who can beat Jess in a running race. Jess is able to confide in Leslie. He tells her about his dream to become an artist despite his father's disapproval, the financial challenges his family faces, and his own insecurities they become best friends and build a magical imaginary world in the woods behind their homes that only they know about. They call it Terabithia. One day Jess is invited to go to an art museum with his favorite teacher and can't play with Leslie after school. While he's gone, Leslie goes to Terabithia alone and tragically and senselessly drowns in their creek. Quote Cremated. Something clicked inside Jess head that meant Leslie was gone, turned to ashes. He would never see her again, not even dead. Never. How could they dare? Leslie belonged to him more to him than to anyone in the world. End quote. Jess is left to confront this life altering tragedy without his best friend and find the strength to carry on. Newbery Award winning Bridge to Terabithia by Katherine Patterson is one of today's Velshi Band Book Club features. Heralded as one of the most enduring and poignant children's books of the 20th century, Bridge to Terabithia demands its reader confront the realities of childhood, including family dynamics, class division, friendship, identity, and of course, death. Without reading Bridge to Terabithia, you might assume that these topics are too serious and too heavy for a children's book. The tragedies, the joys, the challenges and the imagination found in the pages of this book are just a reality. To think otherwise is to do disservice to children. In fact, Bridge to Terabithia was written in reaction to the senseless death of Patterson's own son's best friend. The dedication reads, quote, I wrote this book for my son, David Lord Patterson, but after he read it, he asked me to put Lisa's name on the page as well. And so I do for David Patterson and Lisa Hill. End quote. She ends the dedication with a traditional Japanese exclamation banzai, meaning 10,000 years of long life. Patterson masterfully captures the voice of a child without being patronizing. This is best showcased in the way Patterson allows our protagonist Jess the full spectrum of grief after Leslie's death, from anger to guilt and then eventually to acceptance. At its core, though, Bridge to Terabithia is a story of the power of friendship. Even after its end, Jess and Leslie's friendship both affirms and provides the space for them to grow. There is a nuanced understanding and safety that is masterfully captured within the description of friendship. If you've been lucky enough to experience friendship like this, it reads as truthful and sacred. Leslie was more than his friend. She was his other, more exciting self, his way to Terabithia and all the worlds beyond. In the pages of Bridge to Terabithia, Patterson eloquently reminds us that those intense feelings of longing and belonging, of searching for a why that does not exist, of turning to your family for support, and of life affirming friendship, do not begin in adulthood. Rather, they are universal, unavoidable, and always there. If you're among the school board members, the organized parents, or the far right groups that have banned and challenged Bridge to Terabithia for foul language or for promoting so called witchcraft, then you've missed the point of the book. If you're among the masses who have targeted Bridge to Terabithia for its frank portrayal of death, then you've still missed the point. Bridge to Terabithia is equally powerful for adult readers as it is for young readers. The book reminds us that the emotional imprint left after true friendship and after first loss never truly fades away. Today, decades after the book's initial publication, and decades after I opened it for the first time, Bridge to Terabithia still has the power to make me cry. And that emotional resonance is the point exactly. I'm joined now by the legendary Katherine Patterson. She's the author of numerous award winning books for children and young adults, including Bridge to Terabithia.

Well, thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure and honor.

Let's talk about this Bridge to Terabithia is literally the first time many young readers are ever confronted with the idea of death. Talk to me about why you thought it important to broach that topic through literature before many of these people will ever experience it in life.

I didn't start the book that way, but I've always felt that books are a wonderful rehearsal for what you're going to have to meet in life, and we're all going to have to meet death. Can I tell you a story?

Yes.

A young man wrote to me and he said that he had a best friend growing up and they were always together until they went to separate colleges and he couldn't wait till Thanksgiving when they could get together again and talk about their experiences when they were apart. And he got home first and then he got the word that his best friend had been killed in automobile accident on the way back home. So he wrote to me and he said, I went to my shelf in my bedroom and took out my copy of Bridge to Terabithia, which I had owned since I was 10, and I read it through and I can't tell you how comfort that was to me. And I thought, you know, if Somebody hadn't given it to him when he was 10, then it wouldn't have been there when he was 18 and needed it.

What a way to think about it. A rehearsal for what you might meet in life. One of the reasons that this book has been challenged or banned is because it's apparently anti Christianity. In chapter eight, Leslie joins Jess's family at Easter mass. She's never been to church before and is interested, although she disagrees with the idea that God would send anyone to hell. You were raised by Presbyterian ministers and married to one. What do you say to people who say that your book is anti Christianity?

Well, it's so sad because it's only my Christian brothers and sisters who ban me. I think I don't find the book Antichrist at all. I think if we're honest, we're always struggling with our faith. I heard Ellie Riesel talk once, and he said, my God lets me argue with him. What does your God do? And I thought, you know, if you have real faith, then you're gonna argue with God. And certainly Bridget Sarah Bathya wasn't one of my arguments with God. Why should this wonderful child be struck and killed by lightning? It just did not make any sense.

I touched on this in the introduction. But Bridge to Terabithia is really actually as much about friendship and the power of friendship as it is about death. Let's talk about that. The actual friendship, irrespective of the tragedy.

When I said the first cry of pain to my wonderful editor.

I knew.

I made a mistake. I mean, no real writer would send a book as bad as that. And she called me up and she said, is this a book about friendship, or is it a book about death? And I had always thought it was a book about death. When she asked me that question, I said, no, it's a book about friendship. And she said, that's what I thought. You've got to go back and write it that way. And that was when the bully that I knew in the fourth grade at Calvin H. Wiley School came into the book. I couldn't name her Pansy, which was the bully's real name. I named her Janice Avery. And I said, pansy, I'm going to get my revenge.

And.

Of course, you know, before I finish, I kind of felt sorry for Janice Avery. And then I kind of liked her. So it ruined my revenge. But it did the job. It showed how Leslie could grow because she knew Jazz. Cause Jess helped her be kind to Janice Avery.

I want to talk about the role of Ms. Edmonds. She's described early in the book quote sounds like some kind of hippie, his mother had said. When Branda, who had been in seventh grade last year, described Ms. Edmonds to her, she probably was. Jess wouldn't argue that, but he saw her as a beautiful wild creature who had been caught for a moment in that dirty old cage of a schoolhouse, perhaps by mistake, but he hoped, he prayed, she'd never get loose and fly away. He managed to endure the whole boring week of school for that 1/2 hour on Friday afternoons when they'd sit on the worn out rug on the floor of the teacher's room. There was no place else in the building for Ms. Edmonds to spread out all her stuff and sing songs like My Beautiful Balloon. And that took me back to my childhood. What's Ms. Edmonds role in Jess World?

What is Ms. Edmonds? Well of course it is she who takes into the art museum and causes not causes the tragedy, but the tragedy occurs when Jess has gone off and is not invited as they go on a trip with them and makes feel guilty responsible for her death. She played that role, but also she played a real role in bringing Jess and Fleshley together and making Jess feel that it was okay for him to have a girl for a friend.

Thank you to the legendary author Katherine Patterson, author of today's first feature, Bridge to Terabithia. Next, we're going forward in time to high school. We're looking at the book you pick up when you're trying to find yourself and your place in this world. I'm talking about Perks of Being a Wallflower by Stephen Chbosky. This interview is just as emotional as the book it discusses.

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[Katherine Paterson]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? New York Times tech reporter Kate Conger on Elon Musk in the Trump 2.0 era.

[Stephen Chbosky]

I think a lot of other tech leadership is looking now at what Musk has been able to accomplish by aligning himself so closely with Trump and wanting to follow suit. And it is this very kind of transparent favor trading that's going on throughout the industry right now where people are feeling like, like, okay, I can cozy up to the President and that's going to have a beneficial impact for my business.

[Katherine Paterson]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow Charlie is entering high school alone. His best friend, Michael has died by suicide. He writes his thoughts, fears and updates in letters addressed only to a dear friend. Soon, though, Charlie meets Sam, a caring and magnetic high school senior with an undeserving reputation and her inviting stepbrother Patrick, who is harboring a secret relationship with the quarterback of the football team. Together, Patrick, Sam and Charlie create an island all their own. They help Charlie find his footing and then himself. This is the plot of Stephen Chbosky's generation defining work, the Perks of Being a Wallflower the Perks of Being a Wallflower honestly grapples with adolescent anguish, the numbing pain of a close death, finding yourself under pressure to conform, and the generational toll that sexual abuse within a family takes. But at its core, it is a story about the power of friendship. Sam and Patrick offered Charlie the steady ground to find himself. They are shelter in the storm that is the typical pain of high school and the additional trauma that Charlie faces. They help Charlie understand the book's most famous line and most enduring message, we accept the love we think we deserve. Friendship in the pages of this book is life or death. Admittedly, the Perks of Being a Wallflower is one of those books that is not so easily summarized. The themes the book addresses are dark and heavy, but the book doesn't read that way. The Perks of Being a Wallflower is sweet and poignant, and that is high school. That is adolescence, the painful meeting of adulthood, lingering childhood naivete and teenage feelings. It's not easy to strike that note right at the crossroads of those three things, but Chbosky does, again and again. The result is a book that's so specific in its story, with its frequent 90s cultural references and its nuanced characters, that it feels infinitely universal and evergreen. The book's power is in its ability to reach so many. The Perks of Being a Wallflower masterfully utilizes outside elements as windows into the characters, including carefully placed literature. The reader sees Charlie's growth and change through the many novels that his beloved English teacher assigns him. Quote, I have finished To Kill a Mockingbird. It is now my favorite book of all time. But then again, I always think that until I read another book, Charlie reads Peter Pan, the Great Gatsby, a separate piece. The Catcher in the Rye on the Road, the Fountainhead. End quote. Patrick grappling with his sexuality and his first love is given the mayor of Castro Street. Charlie's brother says his new girlfriend's favorite book is Walden by Henry David Thoreau. Like many of those books I just named, the Perks of Being a Wallflower has been targeted for ban again and again nearly every year since its publication in 1999. I don't need to tell you why. All the details that make this book emotionally resonant, culturally ephemeral, and necessary are the same details that get it banned. There are terrible things that happen in the pages of this book. Suicide, rape, sexual assault, and anti LGBTQ degradation. But they are things that happen in real life. Off the page books can save a life and help those who have been left behind carry on too. I'm joined now by Stephen Chbosky, author of the New York Times bestseller the Perks of Being a Wallflower and the director of the movie adaptation. With more than 5 million copies in print and the distinction as one of the best young adult novels of all time, the Perks of Being a Wallflower is one of the biggest books we've featured on the Veli Band Book Club. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me being here. This book is full of references, 90s references, which I highly appreciate. One of them is mentioned again and again. The song Asleep by the Smiths. The book and the song explore some of the same things, including loneliness and death and desire. Tell me about the mechanisms that you've used, the literature and the songs.

[Stephen Chbosky]

Well, you know, I remember the one thing about being young. I wrote the book when I was 26, finished it when I was 28. And so music, as we all know, when you're a young person, it becomes part of the identity that you forge, right? You find that book that speaks to you, or you find that song or that Band. And as you're piecing together this mosaic that ultimately becomes your adult identity, these cultural touchstones are everything. And so I was just writing about myself that particular song. I cannot tell you how many times I drove through the Fort Pitt Tunnel in Pittsburgh listening. And when Morrissey, when I met, by the way, fantastic individual. And it was a real treat to meet him. When he sings, you know, there's another world, There's a better world, There must be. Even though he was actually singing about suicide, the music is so beautiful. I didn't take it that way. And so that song, in that particular line, in those lights of the Fort Pitt tunnel and sing downtown, that's forever adolescence for me.

[Katherine Paterson]

Why is it so universal when you have such specific references that I understand very well? And yet this book. You're coming up to your 25th anniversary.

[Stephen Chbosky]

Yes. Yeah.

[Katherine Paterson]

What's the answer? Why is this book, the book that people email us and tell us about, they've got their tattered copies of that became a movie that everybody knows about?

[Stephen Chbosky]

Well, I think that for a lot of people, the song itself doesn't particularly matter, but the listening to it and the drive with those friends in that moment where you're seeing the lights on the buildings and everything, that makes you wonder. The dream of adolescence is forever, and that's universal. And the longing of being young. And I've made many, many movies about this as well. I've written about it extensively. And that's what it is. It doesn't. The cultural references that we know, they change. Like, bands come in and out of favor. Singers change. It doesn't particularly matter. But the connection that we feel to those particular people in those particular songs is forever. It will never change. That goes back hundreds and hundreds of years, you know, when a person first made a piece of music. That brings us closer to everything that makes life worth living.

[Katherine Paterson]

One of the things we talk about with authors, particularly who write for young adults, is the degree to which they feel that their writing has influenced young people. Now, influence is an important thing, but sometimes it saves people. Sometimes people get seen. You've got a pile of letters there. Some of them are 15 plus years old.

[Stephen Chbosky]

Yes.

[Katherine Paterson]

These are letters from whom?

[Stephen Chbosky]

These are letters. I cherish these, basically, over the years, as you said, My book was published 25 years ago next month. And over the years, I've received letters from young people that said that they were gonna commit suicide. And they read the book or in some cases, the movie, and they found it. And then they decided to choose life, basically. And every Time I go and I talk about whether it's the book or the movie or banning or any of these issues, I bring it with me. Cause I wanna remind myself always, that's what it's for.

[Katherine Paterson]

That's what it's for.

[Stephen Chbosky]

That's what, you know. If you say 5 million copies, lovely, good for me. Yay. As an author, it's the people that actually read. It's the people that it reached. It's the people that it helped. Because I wrote it for my own personal reasons. This book saved me in a lot of ways as I was writing it. And then I published it, hoping to help people find a blueprint to heal whatever it is they've gone through. And so I bring these letters to remind myself what it's all about.

[Katherine Paterson]

Can you read from one of them for us?

[Stephen Chbosky]

I would happily read from one of them. This is from a young woman and says, Mr. Chbosky, I really hope you read this. If not, then whoever is reading it, thanks for doing so. I had to write to someone whom I didn't know. I guess a little info about me is needed so you get a mental picture of me. I'm 15, the youngest junior at my school. I'm not one of those popular kids. I've always found refuge among people who actually cared for me and such. I have a younger brother. He just turned 14. And I have a mom. I used to have a dad, but he died November 5, 2008. I can finally say what I've been thinking and feeling. I literally just finished the Perks of Being a Wallflower. And it made me think about so many things. It gave me a sense of hope. I was lost and confused for so long. When my dad died and left me to face life alone, things snapped. I started doing things I wish I never did to myself. The scars and burns still show vividly. I'm so ashamed because of them. Last night I had written letters to the people I love about how sorry I was that I was leaving them. That I had to because I felt like a burden on everyone around me. That it's been 100 days since my dad died. He promised me he would see me graduate. That's why I hate. They are always broken back to the letters. They sit neatly organized on my desk. Now I feel like I betrayed everyone because I planned on killing myself today. I was so ready to swallow the pills and just let my heart give out. But reading the Perks of Being a Wallflower gave me a reason to not kill myself. It made me think about everything My favorite part was the last page about being alive in the tunnel. It made me realize that there was a goal for me. I'd always gone through life as if I were sleeping. But my goal is to find that moment where I feel like I'm actually living. So really, what I'm trying to say is, thank for creating such a wonderful book. Thank you for giving me a reason and a goal to keep going. If I hadn't read your book in one night, I would be cold and dead right now. I write this in pen because I am definite about what I am saying. Thank you for giving me the chance to do so. Eternally grateful. She says her name, which I will not say. P.S. do you think my dad can see my new determination to keep living? I really hope so.

[Katherine Paterson]

Wow. So the 5 million books doesn't matter. The movie doesn't matter.

[Stephen Chbosky]

That matters.

[Katherine Paterson]

Someone's alive because you wrote that book.

[Stephen Chbosky]

Yeah, this one of. And because she read it. Let's give her a lot of credit.

[Katherine Paterson]

Because she read it and because she was able to read it.

[Stephen Chbosky]

That's right.

[Katherine Paterson]

Because someone didn't stop her from doing it. So it goes full circle to the whole discussion about why we have a banned book club. Why not let somebody read that? Why not? Isn't that enough evidence that these books should not be banned?

[Stephen Chbosky]

I couldn't agree more. It is literally a matter of life and death. You know, it's funny. Over the years, I've made the American Library association list many, many times.

[Katherine Paterson]

This is the most banned books list.

[Stephen Chbosky]

Yeah, the most banned books list. Yes. And, you know, I've been asked, oh, isn't it a badge of honor? And he's like, no, not to me. It's not.

[Katherine Paterson]

It's not a goal at all.

[Stephen Chbosky]

It's like, yes, I've been literally banned in Boston. You know what I mean? I'm not bragging about that. To me, it's all about the next kid. You never know what book because, you know, Perks is just one of them. There are many of them. Judy Blume, John Green, up and down the line that reach people. And you never know where the next kid is and what I try to tell parents that are maybe trying to ban the book. To the best of my ability, I write them letters sometimes, if I'm told about this early enough to say, look, not every parent has the time, and not every parent maybe is as involved in their kid's life as you are. Give them a chance. You don't know where that kid is. That's why I thank you for having this club is because I just wanted to let people know it literally is a matter of life and death and to take it that seriously.

[Katherine Paterson]

Where are we right now? I mean, this. As you've noticed, you've been banned a lot. It seems to be getting worse.

[Stephen Chbosky]

Absolutely. Ever since I would say, obviously the pandemic and all the isolation just put every bit of mental health on alert, as we all know. And I'm sure you've reported about many, many. But it also has hypercharged, a lot of anger and vitriol and people that just want to stamp out ideas or voices that they may not agree with. You know, a lot of parent groups, usually on the right, I should say always on the right. They have targeted my book and others because they just don't like some of the characters, some of the things that they're going through and they think that on some level it's a shame that I'm doing it to be titillating or to be this. No, no, no. I'm writing about it because it is a reality and I would much rather a K in a book knowing that I really care about their well being and I want them to do great. I want them to have a great life. And I don't know, it's a shame. I don't know why people are as angry as they are. But to me, the book banning and some of the stuff you were talking about earlier in the show about the democracy is this is a canary in the coal mine and we all know it. And there's so much historical evidence as such, and it's very troubling.

[Katherine Paterson]

That's exactly what it is. Stephen, great to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing some of that correspondence with us. We appreciate that Stephen Chbosky is the award winning author of the book the Perks of Being a Wallflower. Now, to any members of the Velshi Band Book Club or anyone, right now, if you're feeling isolated or depressed or experiencing a crisis of some kind, you're not alone. There are people who can help. You can dial the number 988. The 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline provides 24. 7 confidential help if you or your loved ones should ever need it.

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[Stephen Chbosky]

Let's get up to speed.

[Ali Velshi]

We've got some breaking news right now.

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Watch your favorite shows live.

[Ali Velshi]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

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Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days leave, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Ali Velshi]

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

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Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Ali Velshi]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

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The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Katherine Paterson]

Joining me now is our literary editor and the producer of the Welshy Band Book Club, Hannah Holland. This concept of reading as a rite of passage, I guess the question is when you ban these books, doesn't really take the rites of passage away. It just changes the way some kids are gonna be able to deal with it well.

[Ali Velshi]

And also it's, you know, these are books that you can talk about with your mom and your aunts and your younger cousin and if they're gone, wiped from curriculum. Of course you're not getting the amazing things that these books contribute to childhood or high school. But then we're losing that generational ability to talk about these books as well.

[Katherine Paterson]

And they can be vehicles for discussing feelings for kids who may not want to sit there and discuss their feelings independently.

[Ali Velshi]

100%. And we've had so many authors say this. I'm thinking specifically of Jeanette Walls where she was like, we all wanna protect children, but the reality is you're going to go to a funeral at a certain point in your life, whether it's at 6 years old or as an adult. I loved when Katherine Patterson said Bridge to Terabithia is A rehearsal for that. Death is part of life. It just. It is what it is. And so for you to be able to feel that sadness in such a safe way through a book like Bridge to Terabithia, I think is just so unbelievable and so critically important.

[Katherine Paterson]

I have met people, adults, where someone has passed away and they don't want their children attending the funeral, for instance. They think it is too hard. And look, when someone says that to me, I don't think that's weird. And yet if somebody wants to ban the book that's available to have that discussion in context, I would think that that's a bad thing, because having that discussion in context without you having to first go through it, might be really beneficial. I think back to the movie. As a kid, Stand by Me.

[Ali Velshi]

I feel like everyone has this book or this movie. For me, it was where the Red Fern Grows, of course, with Animals, the two dogs die. And I was like, I could never feel this bad ever again.

[Katherine Paterson]

And how many of our authors have said this to us, Hannah? Why not have some way to address it, to know what it feels like to have a window into it so that when it happens to you, you either can identify with someone, you can feel seen, you can feel heard, or you can say, ah, I know how this unfolds.

[Ali Velshi]

And for a young person, what an amazing way to metabolize your thoughts and feelings. Like, wow, this is happening to me now. This feels incredibly overwhelming, or whatever the feelings may be. But this reminds me of Perks of being a wallflower, right? This reminds me of Bridge to Terabithia.

[Katherine Paterson]

Bridge to Terabithia is often banned. And you and I talk about this. Sometimes we get bored with talking about the reasons why books are banned, because there hasn't been an original one in about five, 100 years. But this one is often banned for being anti Christian. Katherine Patterson says that if you have real faith, you're going to argue with God. It's a central tenet of many of our faiths that you must reason and debate and get there. We tend to think religion is supposed to stop any degree of critical thought, but most people who study religions will tell you that's not true, and it never has been true.

[Ali Velshi]

And Katherine Patterson is actually a very religious person. She was raised by Presbyterian ministers, and she herself is incredibly involved in the Presbyterian Church, right? So to me, I hear a woman who is incredibly involved still in the church say something like that, like, yeah, I. I think that that's absolutely the truth. You were a theology major in college If I'm correct.

[Katherine Paterson]

Right?

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah. It's always fun to talk about religion with you. You know, my grandma, who has a master's degree in theology and was very involved in the Catholic Church, always points out that the religious scholars and the more senior people in the church are always the most liberal. They're the ones that are critically evaluating what the church is.

[Katherine Paterson]

You don't wanna lose people from the church. And that does happen all around the world. So they work on how can I reconcile my beliefs, my faith and my religion with the real life people lead. You cannot tell people they will not experience death. In fact, so many organized religions simply exist for the purpose of letting people deal with the major events in their life. Birth, marriage, divorce if they must, and death. So it is interesting that both of these books discuss this almost in spiritual terms. The idea that when you lose a friend as a young person, it could look like God's not there, God's gone from your life, God has abandoned you, and who else can you turn to? Friends represent so much more when you're young. I mean, look, as an adult, friends represent a great deal. But I write in my own memoir about my best friend, Mikey. And at the end, I refer to him as my brother more than my friend because it's so constant. His presence in my life was so constant. Decisions were not made independently of Mikey. Right. You just think of yourself as one with your friend or your friend group, possibly more than you do with your family and your parents.

[Ali Velshi]

Oh, 100%. And I had the same thing. My two best friends, Kimia and Margaret, we did everything together. And they are still a sounding board for me into adulthood. And I think when you are younger, friends are sort of an everyday part of your life.

[Katherine Paterson]

Right.

[Ali Velshi]

But then your life changes and things become more complicated. You take on more responsibilities. But for me, at least, the role of friendship has become more critical. Who is one of the few people you can talk to that you know in your heart want the best for you and are gonna give you the best kind of advice they possibly can? I think there is this notion in adulthood that friendships aren't as important as they are when you're younger. But I don't feel that that's true at all.

[Katherine Paterson]

Maybe they're more. Maybe they're more Perks is written as letters. They're entries of letters, ostensibly to Charlie's friend Michael, who has died.

[Ali Velshi]

For me, it worked really well because you get this sort of closeness to Charlie that you might not get if it was just third person writing or something. More typical. And I think it also did such a good job of crystallizing the loneliness you feel with a loss. Even though this person is not with him every day, he still needs him. Right. In some capacity. So he. He writes these letters, and it almost functions as a stand in. It's his way of still having this friendship be part of his life. And it reminds me, too, I mean, that emotional moment where Stephen Chawski read you the letters from readers.

[Katherine Paterson]

I mean, we've had some emotional moments. That's certainly the top three of all the moments I've had in a Velshi Band Book Club interview.

[Ali Velshi]

We talk a lot about how powerful books are and how books can save lives. And it can probably sound hyperbolic if you're not a person who reads, but then you hear these letters.

[Katherine Paterson]

Yep, I know our listeners have heard this, but I want to describe it. Stephen comes in to the studio. We probably interview about a quarter of our authors in person. Many of them are remote. It's just simpler for everyone. And usually they bring nothing with them. But he had a pile of papers, and I asked him before we started, what are the papers? And he said, these are letters from my readers. And at one point, he started reading one of them. I could not keep it together because you and I have said, we've said it to authors, we've said it to each other, and we've said it to our listeners that reading can save lives. Right. We say reading is resistance, and that's why you and I do it. But reading actually can save lives. This is not the first time an author has told us this very specifically, that someone has written to them, or case of newer authors, emailed them and told them, thank you. I've never seen myself before. I thought the world hated me. I thought my parents hated me. I thought I was no good and I was worthless. And now I'm alive because of your book. So please do not live under the misconception that reading actually saves lives. So when you ban books, when you ban books, you may ultimately, without knowing it, and unintentionally cost someone their life.

[Ali Velshi]

We have talked a lot about what it means to ban a book that represents someone's identity as an LGBTQ person or a black person. I mean, to remove a book like that from a shelf, from a classroom, from a syllabus, What a clear message. Your story doesn't matter, and your story shouldn't be told.

[Katherine Paterson]

People will keep writing. They'll keep writing. They'll keep telling these stories. Cause we'll keep featuring them.

[Ali Velshi]

And I'd love to just use this as a moment to extrapolate on what reading as resistance means. Right. By reading these books and taking them out from the library or buying them from your local bookshop, you are actively stabbing off censorship. They're quoted out of context. Oftentimes the books that are banned haven't been read by the people that are pounding the table to remove them. And if you read them and you understand how important they are, then that is fighting back. That's how these books end up remaining accessible to readers.

[Katherine Paterson]

You generally don't get rich off of writing a book. These folks, when you buy their books, it encourages them to write another book. Yeah, to keep going. They know they've got supporters. They know they've got an audience. They know they've got people who will stand behind them. Hannah, we could be talking about this for hours. And I guess that's part of the fun of this thing.

[Ali Velshi]

We actually get to, oh, 100%.

[Katherine Paterson]

In the next episode of the Valche Band Book Club, we will feature just one critically important novel and an all new interview. I'll be speaking with the former Young People's Poet Laureate Jacqueline Woodson on her magnum opus, Brown Girl Dreaming. Okay, here's the thing. If you don't think you like poetry or it has yet to resonate with you, or it just doesn't seem palatable or accessible, just know that I have been there right with you. That was before I read Jacqueline Woodson's award winning Brown Girl Dreaming. Woodson's story, her words and her point of view are going to change your mind about poetry. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. When you do, you'll be able to listen to the Welshy Van Book Club Club podcast ad free along with other MSNBC originals like Prosecuting Donald Trump, how to win 2024, and why is this happening with Chris Hayes without ads? Plus, you'll get episodes of season two of the Belshi Band Book Club one week early, as well as exclusive bonus content from this and other podcasts. Sign up now on Apple Podcasts. I'm the host of the Velshi Band Book Club, Ali Velshi. Our producer and literary editor is Hannah Holland. Our executive producer is Rebecca Dryden alongside our senior producers Jared Blake and Dina Moss, with production support from Associate producer Nicole McReynolds. Our coordinating producer is Lily Corvo. The executive producer of MSNBC Audio is Aisha Turner. The head of audio production is Bryson Barnes. Alongside our audio engineers Katherine Anderson, Katie Lau and Bob Mallory.

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[Ali Velshi]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

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