Star-Crossed Lovers

Summary

Velshi Banned Book Club: "Star-Crossed Lovers" - Episode Summary

Release Date: October 10, 2024

---

Introduction: Bridging Centuries with Love

In the "Star-Crossed Lovers" episode of MSNBC’s Velshi Banned Book Club, host Ali Velshi delves into a compelling literary juxtaposition that spans over 400 years. The episode pairs William Shakespeare's timeless classic, "Romeo and Juliet," with Dorit Rabinian's contemporary novel, "All the Rivers." This pairing serves to explore the enduring themes of love, familial conflict, and societal pressures that transcend time and culture.

---

Section 1: Exploring "Romeo and Juliet" by William Shakespeare

Timestamp: 00:39 – 12:52

Ali Velshi sets the stage by introducing "Romeo and Juliet," highlighting its foundational role in English literature and its exploration of themes such as familial ties, fate, and the intoxicating power of love. He quotes the play’s prologue:

"From forth the fatal loins of these two foes,
A pair of star-crossed lovers take their lives,
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents' strife."
(00:39)

Familial Obligations and Generation Gap

Velshi discusses the inherent tension in the play stemming from the feud between the Montagues and Capulets. He emphasizes the play's exploration of familial obligation and the generational divide:

"At its core, Romeo and Juliet asks a question so many teenagers have asked: Do I disobey my parents for what I want most, for love?"
(04:50)

The Iconic Balcony Scene

The conversation transitions to one of literature's most celebrated moments—the balcony scene. Velshi reads the opening lines:

"But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun."
(06:21)

Professor Geoffrey Wilson elaborates on the scene's significance, noting that "the word balcony never appears in the text," yet it has become synonymous with the moment of romantic declaration. He reflects on how audiences project contemporary interpretations onto Shakespeare's intent:

"It's not a more iconic associated moment with this play, arguably with all of Shakespeare, than the balcony scene."
(06:42)

Consequences of Forbidden Love

A listener from Vermont raises concerns about the glorification of suicide in the play:

"My biggest concern with the play was always the glorification of suicide for unrequited love."
(07:16)

Professor Sophie Duncan addresses this by clarifying that the play does not romanticize suicide but rather portrays the tragic consequences of the families' feud:

"It's not a glorification of the romance. It's the consequences of the senseless feud between the families."
(07:51)

Themes of Fate and Moderation

The discussion further explores themes of fate and the call for moderation in love. Duncan cites Friar Laurence's warning:

"These violent delights have violent ends."
(11:13)

Professor Wilson connects this to Renaissance ethics and the Aristotelian concept of the golden mean, emphasizing the balance:

"Moderation was one of the ideals of Renaissance ethics."
(11:45)

---

Section 2: Unveiling "All the Rivers" by Dorit Rabinian

Timestamp: 13:37 – 32:55

Transitioning to contemporary literature, Ali Velshi introduces "All the Rivers," a novel that modernizes the star-crossed lovers trope within the Israeli-Palestinian context. The story revolves around Liot, an Israeli woman, and Hilmi, a Palestinian man, whose love blossoms amidst political strife in New York City.

Censorship and Controversy

Rabinian's novel faced censorship when Israel's Ministry of Education rejected its inclusion in high school curricula:

"The story is based on a romantic motif of a forbidden, secret and impossible love."
(27:15)

This decision transformed the book from a bestseller and award-winning novel into a political symbol, sparking widespread protests and personal backlash against Rabinian.

Themes of Identity and Empathy

Dorit Rabinian joins the discussion to provide deeper insights into her work. She emphasizes the importance of empathy and the complexities of national identity:

"We share so much more than what we dispute. We have so much of our characters, humor, temperament."
(25:42)

Rabinian reflects on the humanistic elements of her narrative, advocating for individual relationships as the cornerstone of peace:

"Make empathy institutionalized in some way... that was what he told me... and I dedicate this book for him."
(31:17)

Setting as a Neutral Ground

The novel's setting in New York City serves as a neutral ground where the protagonists can explore their relationship away from the entrenched conflicts of their homelands:

"Once Helmi and Liat... let themselves be as free as the place allows them to, but there are powers in them that pull them back."
(26:01)

Personal and Political Turmoil

The conversation touches upon the intertwined nature of personal relationships and broader political turmoil. Rabinian shares her emotional journey and the impact of ongoing conflicts on personal empathy:

"I'm disappointed with institutions... this is our only hope and this should be institutionalized."
(31:17)

---

Section 3: Comparative Insights and Modern Relevance

Timestamp: 32:53 – 43:23

Connecting Classics with Contemporary Narratives

Professors Duncan and Wilson draw parallels between "Romeo and Juliet" and "All the Rivers," highlighting how both works address the influence of upbringing and societal expectations on personal relationships.

"We are who we were raised, you know, your parental influence or the influence of the way you were raised."
(39:37)

Universality and Individuality in Love

The discussion emphasizes the universality of love despite cultural and temporal differences. They explore how literature serves as a medium to humanize and foster empathy across divides:

"The only story we can ever tell is about people."
(43:14)

Modern Adaptations and Censorship

Professor Wilson mentions contemporary instances of Shakespearean censorship, such as the banning of "The Tempest" in Arizona due to its perceived commentary on colonization, underscoring the ever-evolving interpretation of classic literature:

"They're not allowed to read the Tempest because it so called grapples with colonization."
(37:02)

The Role of Literature in Social Reform

The episode underscores literature's role in challenging societal norms and encouraging dialogue, positioning reading as an act of resistance against censorship and intellectual suppression.

---

Conclusion: Literature as a Catalyst for Empathy and Change

The "Star-Crossed Lovers" episode of Velshi Banned Book Club masterfully intertwines classic and contemporary narratives to explore enduring human themes. Through expert analysis and author insights, the episode advocates for the power of literature to bridge cultural divides, foster empathy, and resist censorship. By celebrating both Shakespeare's enduring legacy and Rabinian's poignant storytelling, Ali Velshi underscores the vital role of reading as a form of cultural and intellectual resistance.

---

Notable Quotes from the Episode:

• Ali Velshi: "Do I disobey my parents for what I want most, for love?"
  (04:50)

• Professor Sophie Duncan: "It's the consequences of the senseless feud between the families."
  (07:51)

• Dorit Rabinian: "Make empathy institutionalized in some way... that was what he told me."
  (31:17)

• Professor Geoffrey Wilson: "We're the only people who can really answer this."
  (43:14)

---

This comprehensive exploration serves not only as a reflection on the selected works but also as a commentary on the current landscape of literary censorship and the unwavering resilience of storytelling as a means of fostering understanding and resistance.

Transcript

[Ali Velshi]

Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Ali Velshi]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc [e-mail] Foreign.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Welcome to the Velshi Band Book Club. I'm Ali Velshi. Today we are pairing two works of literature that were written over 400 years apart. The first is arguably the most famous and most recognizable work in the long history of English literature. The second is hyper contemporary and heartbreakingly relevant today, separated by time and culture and joined by the universality of love, heartbreak and duty, today's featured works are Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare and All the Rivers by Dorit Rabinian. We're going to begin today with Shakespeare. Romeo and Juliet is foundational to the art of storytelling and the legacy of love stories. Then we will look at all the Rivers, a frank and contemporary examination of love and relationships in the context of familial ties, cultural demands and ingrained beliefs. So let's get started. From the first few lines of William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, the reader already knows what will become of our young two households, both alike in dignity, in fair Verona, where we lay our scene from ancient grudge break to new mutiny, where civil blood makes civil hands unclean. From forth the fatal loins of these two foes, a pair of star crossed lovers take their lives, whose misadventured piteous overthrows do with their death bury their parents strife. End quote. One of Shakespeare's most popular, most performed and most famous plays, Romeo and Juliet explores familial ties, the inevitability of fate, and the power of love. It is also highly controversial. Either beloved or derided, Romeo and Juliet belongs to a tradition of tragic and forbidden romance that precedes Shakespeare. Based on an Italian poem, Shakespeare added tension in his retelling by expanding on minor characters like Juliet's suitor Paris and Romeo's friend Mercutio, adding subplots and creating a dramatic structure that switches between comedic and and tragic. And more than 400 years later, the play still masterfully captures the belief that love is powerful, a source of rebellion, an inescapable destiny, and a means to freedom. One of the primary sources of tension in Romeo and Juliet is familial obligation. Romeo and Juliet's parents and guardian figures, like Juliet's nurse are portrayed as authority. Authority upholding a long standing structure that their children don't support. And that crucially is never explained to the reader. Like Romeo and Juliet, we are expected to just accept the feud between the Montagues and the Capulets at face value. At its core, Romeo and Juliet asks a question so many teenagers have asked. Do I disobey my parents for what I want most, for love? Because it's Shakespeare. The dichotomy between the older generation and the younger generation is complex and deliberate. Romeo and Juliet's age is not an afterthought for Juliet especially her age comes up again and again. We also see Romeo develop. His sonnets become more complex as the play progresses and as he matures. The other force at work in Romeo and Juliet is fate. Fate is the unseen character guiding Romeo and Juliet. The tragic timing of Juliet's awakening and Romeo's suicide. Suicide star crossed lovers is such a part of our lexicon, it's easy to forget that Shakespeare coined that phrase to depict fateful lovers in those first few lines. It really is no surprise that there are so many generation defining adaptations of Romeo and Juliet in modern pop culture. From plays to films to songs. West side Story, the Arpeggio filled Dire Straits song, Baz Luhrmann's iconic movie, love story by Taylor Swift, the cartoons Gnomeo and Juliet and so many more. Shakespeare inspires literature. Especially challenging literature inspires. I'm joined now by two Romeo and Juliet experts. Professor Geoffrey Wilson, Shakespeare Scholar at Harvard University, and Professor Sophie Duncan, Research fellow and Dean for Magdalene College at Oxford University and author of Searching for the Lives and Deaths of Shakespeare's first tragic heroine. Dr. Duncan, let me ask you. I touched on the intergenerational relevance of Romeo and Juliet in the introduction. All of Shakespeare's plays and sonnets have universality that makes them classics. But in your estimation, what is it about Romeo and Juliet that continues to resonate as much as I think because.

Shakespeare has such tremendous sympathy for Romeo and Juliet, One of the things he changes about his sources is that he really squarely blames the parents. We think of the teenager as something that is a kind of product of the 1960s and that generation. But in fact, I'd say he invents the teenager. Lots of people, maybe until now, encounter this play for the first time as teenagers. And after that I think there's something wonderfully nostalgic about the idea of first love, which means this is a play we enjoy returning to.

Professor Wilson, let's talk about the balcony scene. It is probably the most famous scene in English literature. I'm going to read the first two lines of it. But soft. What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east and Juliet is the sun. Talk to me about this moment in the play and what has made that scene unusually iconic.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Well, the Romeo and Juliet's embroiling controversy. There's controversies going on with Florida. There was controversy in 1968 with the Zeffirelli film. But the biggest controversy in the circles that we run in is that the word balcony never appears in the text of Romeo and Juliet. And to me, there's not a more iconic associated moment with this play, arguably with all of Shakespeare, than the balcony scene in Romeo and Juliet. I suppose it speaks to kind of the way in which we in the audience will project what we do with Shakespeare's text back onto Shakespeare's intent.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

I like that. Dr. Duncan, one member of the Velshi Band Book club from Vermont, wrote us with his reaction to Romeo and Juliet. Quote, my biggest concern with the play was always the glorification of suicide for unrequited love. These are two young teens kept apart by their parents who chose to kill themselves rather than be apart. I always thought there needed to be a serious discussion of why Shakespeare made that the ending, as if suicide is a solution to any problem. Of course not. He says in parentheses, and how young hearts heal and things really do get better. Your take on that?

I think it's such an important point. And too often, I think the Romeo and Juliet story is used to glorify toxic ideas about love that, you know, love hurts. You need to fight for love. Turning against everyone you've known before is romantic. But I think the idea that the play glorifies suicide is because of how film and production since have presented it. If you read the play, the ending isn't romantic. It's a mess. Juliet kills herself out of panic because she's been abandoned by Friar Laurence, her confidante. She doesn't want to become a nun. And the reason the lovers kill themselves, I think, is very much to show the parents how senseless and terrible the cost of their feud is. It's not a glorification of the romance. It's the consequences of the senseless feud between the families.

Jeff, your take on that Romeo and.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Juliet sort of asks to me kind of four key questions. And so first is, is the love of Romeo and Juliet something to pursue or something to avoid? And Second is how do we as parents handle our children's shift from subjects who we can control and protect into self determin adults who are frequently horny. And third is what happens when children with poor skills of emotional problem solving, as Sophie's talking about, have easy access to lethal weapons. And fourth is what are the prospects for social reform after partisan politics lead to the death of children?

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Well said. Dr. Duncan. In your book, I want to go forward what you just said, you said it wasn't a romantic ending, it was a mess. In your book Searching for Juliet, you note that Juliet dies because in your words quote, a series of bad decisions made. Romeo kills Tybalt, which leads to his banishment. Her father emotionally abuses her and accelerates her forced bigamous marriage. These events prompt Friar Lawrence's chaotic and ultimately derailed plan. This is not a typical reading of Romeo and Juliet.

No, but I think it's a reading that Shakespeare's first audiences would have understood. And I think Geoffrey's point is excellent about is this a love which is to be pursued or avoided? And for many reasons, Shakespeare's first audiences would have understood this is a love which is to be avoided. They don't know each other. The families are not functioning at all well. And in the Elizabethan era, when Shakespeare wrote the play, to be ready for marriage, you had to be behaving and thinking and functioning as an adult. Since neither Romeo nor Juliet is yet capable of behaving that way, rather than becoming a proper married couple and pursuing a real marriage, they end up being buffeted, and Juliet in particular, by the decisions of the men around them. I mean, Juliet is so sheltered. This is a girl who only leaves her parents house to go to church. This is a girl who doesn't seem to know anybody in her city. She's painfully isolated. And I think this is kind of a reading before romance. The play was always hugely successful in Shakespeare's day, but I think it was understood far more as a tragedy, as a shocking play rather than a vision of any kind of aspirational love story.

Jeff. One particularly memorable moment from the play is a warning from Friar Laurence. Romeo. These violent delights have violent ends. In their triumph die like fire and powder, which as they kiss, consume. The sweetest honey is loathsome in its own deliciousness and in the taste confounds the appetite. Therefore love moderately long love doth so too swift arrives as tardy as too slow. Okay, not only is this really the crux of the play, don't act compulsively for love. The language is kind of amazing too. Jeff.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Yeah, moderation was one of the ideals of Renaissance ethics. So the idea is the Aristotelian golden, mean. Don't be too hot, don't be too cold, don't be too fast, don't be too slow. Shakespeare, as you discussed, is adapting this play from an earlier text by Art Arthur brook, written some 30 or 40 years earlier. And he takes a romance that develops over the course of a year and crunches it down into three days. And so the speed with which Romeo and Juliet fall in love with each other draws people to question whether or not this is genuine love. Could it be genuine love? Because Romeo is just coming off this apparently terrible breakup that he had yesterday with Rosaline and now he is head over heels in love with Juliet. But yet when you see those moments, when you see the balcony scene, when you see the poetry between Romeo and Juliet, it's really hard not to get wrapped up with the passion that they express for each other, with the sincerity of the happiness that they find in each other. And so you have this tension kind of mounting, asking what does it mean to love moderately that's tied up with the speed in which they fall in love.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Thank you to our Romeo and Juliet experts, Professor Jeffrey Wilson, Shakespeare Scholar at Harvard University, and Professor Sophie Duncan, Research fellow and Dean for Magdalene College at Oxford University, and author of Searching for the Lives and Deaths of Shakespeare's First Tragic Heroine. Next we're going to look at the modern interpretation of Star Crossed lovers, the true story of an Israeli woman and a Palestinian man right here in New York City. It's called all the Rivers by Dorit Rabinian. Then you'll get all my thoughts on both works of literature with Welshie Band Book Club producer Hannah Holland.

[Ali Velshi]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app Donald Trump is heading back to the White House.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Together we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable but fascinating four years and we're going to be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days.

[Ali Velshi]

We'll be bringing you the latest updates.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

And analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha Calnick and me, Mark Stone for Trump 100 every weekday at 6am wherever you get your podcast.

[Ali Velshi]

The first 100 days. Bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined and for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Ali Velshi]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time, how do we strategically.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Ali Velshi]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Liotte and Hilmi meet in a Greenwich Village cafe. Their attraction is immediate and their love is inevitable and life changing. Quote in those moments when we talk and talk and talk, I feel like I have been a sort of enigma to myself, a difficult riddle to solve. He has come along to know me and to answer all of my questions. I feel I am almost becoming him, so close to him and infused with him that I can practically feel what it is like to be him. End quote. But theirs is an impossible forbidden love, one that threatens their understanding of identity, cultural heritage and choice. Liot is from Israel and Hilmi is from the west bank in Palestine. They are our star crossed lovers, our modern day Romeo and Juliet. This is the story of today's Velshi Band Book Club feature All the Rivers by Dorit Rabinian. It's also based on Rabinian's very real love affair with the late Palestinian artist Hassan Hourani when she was in her twenties. Robinian skillfully captures the speed and intensity of real love with short chapters, direct and illustrative observations and pointed dialogue. The reader is swept away just as quickly as Liotte, our narrator and protagonist, is. From the moment Liott and Hilmi meet in the cafe, the reader is fiercely rooting for them. And yet, as immediate as Liott and Hilmi's love story is, their cultural and political differences are ever present and intrinsic to their relationship. These moments feel like coming up for air after diving underwater, a necessary interruption. Ultimately, all the Rivers tells two stories, love of country and love of each other, and asks its readers to consider whether they can coexist. There is a pervasive nostalgia throughout all the Rivers. Phone calls made on landlines, a magnet for a taxi company stuck to a refrigerator door, Nirvana played out loud on a stereo. Lyat realizes back in Tel Aviv that she doesn't have a single photograph of Hilmi and of course, no social media to scroll. Or perhaps this nostalgia is because all the Rivers is more than just a wistful recollection of a life changing love. It is a tribute to Hourani. The semi autobiographical nature of all the Rivers is not the only aspect of the novel that exists off the page. In late 2015, Israel's Ministry of Education rejected a request from Israeli educators to add all the Rivers to the national high school curriculum, including student reading lists. Dalia Fenig, an Education Ministry official at the time, defended Barring the novel to the Israeli news website Ynet, saying, quote, the story is based on a romantic motif of a forbidden, secret and impossible love. Adolescent youth tend to romanticize and don't have in many cases, the systematic point of view that includes considerations about preserving the identity of the and the significance of assimilation. End quote. Suddenly, all the Rivers, a true literary work, a real experience, a bestseller, an award winner became a political symbol and a means of division in Israel. High school educators swiftly expressed outrage and protested. Rabinion was spat on in the street. Maybe before October 7th. In a world that seems so far away now, I would have had something salient to point out about Israel's Education Ministry statement and the grave need to preserve freedom of speech wherever possible. Today though, in the year that followed that horrific day and all the horrific days in the region after that, all I can think about is love. All I can think about is how those stolen moments of passion between two kids one winter in New York City has power, immense power to change the world. As bell hooks. The late American author and theorist who studied love said, quote, the moment we chose to love, we begin to move toward freedom, to act in ways that liberate ourselves and others. End quote. I'm joined now by Dorit Rabinian on her Bernstein Prize winning novel, all the Rivers.

[Dorit Rabinian]

Thank you, Ali for this remarkable introduction of my work. Thank you so much.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

It's so meaningful and it's only become more meaningful in the context of the world. Love in a world of conflict. So let's begin by discussing this idea of star crossed lovers, the theme of this episode of the Welshy Band Book Club. First of all, we are comparing your book and people have compared your book to Romeo and Juliet. Was that an influence for you?

[Dorit Rabinian]

It was a reference. I was using the core theme of Romeo and Juliet, the tribal instinct, loyalty towards whom you belong, to those who have shaped you, who molded your point of view towards the world. And I find this instinct to be respectfully acknowledged. And the more I see this ongoing war that seems to be a one day long year, the more I see that this instinct was neglected. And I was raised on this idea that we're all the same. And this had become to be more of a false aspiration. We're not the same we have emotions towards ourselves. The frame of whom we belong to and this emotion should be appreciated were not the same. I feel that the past devastating year had changed me in a way that my empathy had been distorted. I'm not the humanistic person I used to be. I am still a humanistic entity. I still feel for humans. But I'm also aware of how much my heart goes to my own people.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Has it hardened your heart?

[Dorit Rabinian]

It's true, it's true. It could be that my inner core had become toughened in a way that I wouldn't have liked it ever to be. But the outline had become so wounded that I feel weak. I feel that I've softened, not in a good way. I feel that all US citizens of this conflict had gone much older than one year long. We become fatigued in a way that we could have never imagined ourselves to be. And I consider Israelis and Palestinians, Lebanese to be citizens of this conflict. Not because we all voted for this citizenship. It's because of being led by corrupted leaderships. And I'm sorry to say that I'm so ashamed for that. I'm so furious to that that I'm so depressed for that. Yes, you can be both innocent and misled. Yes, both innocent and abused at the same time.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

What a commonality amongst what you call the citizens of this much challenged land in which you all live in that you do share the idea that many of you have been misled by different people for different reasons. And yet I want to explore this idea of whether we are the same or we are not the same. Because it is popular today to say we are all the same. We're all humans, our blood is all red, we all put our pants on the same way. But your book is about a very basic challenge to sameness. In fact, Liot and Hilmi, they refer to respectively Israel and the west bank as home. You don't use the actual place names in the book, you guys.

[Dorit Rabinian]

In English, you have this term of nationhood. I keep on going back to this term because I consider this region to be a neighborhood. And we have two different nations neighboring one another. And we have both our crazy fanatic extremists who are aspiring to devour one another. And the majority in each side are normal people who aspire, normal life. And we all shift from this identity of bravery and victimhood. We have only these polar options of being on top or being under. And this is like. It's unbearable. You cannot live like that. And this generation that is now trapped between my generation and what is about to be the future of this region. They are puzzled and they're being poisoned and they're being convinced that this sameness that we were nurtured with is no longer an availability. And I do cherish it, I do keep it, I do remind myself this same color of blood, same poor mother that cries for her sons, same smoky landscape of the same home. This cannot be denied. Yet I do distinguish between the two nations that are living between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. We should be appreciated as two different identities. And these identities deserve to be separated. I am more than ever and pro. Barriers, obstacles limit borderlines, boundaries. Let us leave one next to the other like neighbors do.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

One of the depictions in your book that so stands out, your depiction of the city in which I live, in New York City, which is more than just the backdrop for Liat and Hilmi's relationship. But it's almost as if their love couldn't have happened somewhere else. New York's neutrality is almost magical and surreal. Talk to me about the setting.

[Dorit Rabinian]

This is in X territory. It's like the fantasy of the American dream, that all opportunities are open, yet we do have the baggage of where we were raised and how we were programmed to see the world. And once Helmi and Liat, this Israeli young woman and these Palestinian young men, when they meet in this New Yorkish everything can happen place, they allegedly can let themselves be as free as the place allows them to, but there are powers in them that pull them back. It's not only the desire of the heart that drive us through life. It's also the fears that we were raised to believe those demons, those interests that makes us who we are. We cannot liberate ourselves that magically, easily, spontaneously, of so many years of education. And it's no wonder that the Ministry of Education of Israel had found this book to be so relevant, so accurate.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

And threatening at the same time.

[Dorit Rabinian]

For that it was threatening because it was so humanistic, because it was offering a possibility of this intoxicating wine of peace and harmony and forgiveness and accepting. And above all, I think it's the acknowledgement of how Israelis and Palestinians are alike. We share so much more than what we dispute. We have so much of our characters, humor, temperament. It's devastating to acknowledge it because it can bring me to tears of how much blood. And my only ray of light that I can look at is history, that there were people in the 20th century wars that are now living in peace. So if we look back in history, we can see catastrophes. But we can see reconciliations.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

I was in Israel right after things happened that morning on October 7th. I got there by October 8th and I spoke to parents and loved ones of those who had been taken. And you're right, the humanity changes the politics. Right. Once you look into someone's eyes and their relative, their child has been killed, whether they're Israeli or Palestinian, it's the same story. But sometimes we can't achieve that in the news. And the argument you use is that perhaps literature is the only way we can achieve that humanity that allows us to resolve some of these things.

[Dorit Rabinian]

It allows us, yeah. There is something about the distance that is being opened between the reader and the characters, the plotline, that it is as if it's a way that allows you to let go your identification and to become somebody else for a while. And this miracle of being somebody else allows you to be in touch with your most vulnerable, denied elements of your human basic instinct that once you close the book, you go back to who you are.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

So your book is interesting. It's written as fiction, but it's influenced by your actual life. Are we farther from what you have written about in your book than when you wrote it?

[Dorit Rabinian]

I keep very loyal to keep in touch with my friends in the West Bank. I have no friends in Gaza. I cannot say that I have friends in the West Bank. I keep in touch. I make sure they're okay. They keep in touch with me, thank God, make sure that I'm okay. I find hope in the most intimate connections, relationship on the ground. And this is a heritage I've been given from Hassan Khawani, my late friend, who was the muse for riding all the rivers. He was very much of a dreamer. He had this plan for a peace solution for the Middle east, for Palestinians and Israelis to be paired in twins. That each Palestinian would have an Israeli that is responsible for his health and well being. And is each Israeli to have a Palestinian that is responsible for his health and well being. Just to call once in a while and bless for a good holiday and to ask how is your mom and dad are doing? And make sure that your fridge is full and that your stomach is full and that you sleep well at night. He said that that is the only solution that we can suggest. Have this twinship on the ground between individuals.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

You're just saying people, intimate relationships, personal relationships is the beginning of the solution.

[Dorit Rabinian]

I'm disappointed with institutions so devastated with institutions that I see only us individuals who march, who protest, who pray, who send out our hands, who maintain what we're left with our empathy. This is our only hope and this should be institutionalized. If there's any practical suggestion that I can add, make empathy institutionalized in some way, foundations, NGOs, anyone that wants to contribute to peace suggests this kind of dream that Hassan Khawani had and I was the one to witness and testify for his name. I cannot predict his position nowadays. I don't know. But that was what he told me at one frosty winter, New Yorkish, harsh snowy night. And I dedicated this book for him and I send out his aspiration now through you. Thank you for this privilege of quoting him, Dorit.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

I would say I didn't know him, but I would argue that his aspiration, if it was that noble, would probably continue. Because it is when it's darkest that the true spirit comes out. And what else can we do in this situation but hope that we can empathize, that we can, we can just learn to love.

[Dorit Rabinian]

Let's save each other.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Let's save each other. Thank you to our latest member of the Velshi Band Book Club, Dorit Rabinian, award winning author of all the Rivers.

[Ali Velshi]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening?

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

New York Times tech reporter Kate Conger on Elon Musk in the Trump 2.0 era.

I think a lot of other tech leadership is looking now at what Musk has been able to accomplish by aligning himself so closely with Trump and wanting to follow suit. And it is this very kind of transparent favor trading that's going on throughout the industry right now where people are feeling like, okay, I can cozy up to the president and that's going to have a beneficial impact for my business.

That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

All right, let's bring Hannah Holland in. She is our producer of the Belshi Band Book Club and our literary editor. I have to say, Hannah, we've all read Romeo and Juliet. I know you think I'm a bit of a rube sometime with my reading, but I actually enjoyed it when I read it for the first time in school. Shakespeare is very close to my heart. I had and I know you may think it's Cheating. But I had one of those Shakespeare anthologies first to familiarize myself with some of the stories. A bit of a cheat sheet, if you will. It's not that I didn't or don't fully appreciate Shakespeare in Shakespearean English, but it sort of helped me look at interpretations and to understand. And I enjoy Romeo and Juliet every way that I read it.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Of course, there's a million and one benefits to reading Shakespeare. Right? Least of all is the language. But to me, stumbling through it is part of the learning process. Picking up for the first time and being like, oh my God, this is so beyond me. And then hopefully having a really good teacher. I think part of the reason I love this play, specifically Romeo and Juliet, is I had this ninth grade English teacher. She created an environment where it was fun and we like, acted out excerpts of the play. And she just made it so that we all understood. And she is the one that brought this up for me for the first time. That, like, the reason that we do this in high school traditionally is because it is a book about being a teenager. Exactly. Yeah. And this idea that Professor Duncan brought up that Shakespeare invents the teenager, I love that because, you know, that's what Mrs. Smith in Richard, New Jersey made very clear to us.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

I also didn't know that there were so many modern adaptations of Shakespeare. Obviously I've come across some of the more popular ones, but it is that timeless. There are people who see the things Shakespeare wrote about in their own time, in their own life experience. It's not just an adaptation because it's neat to make an adaptation of an older story. It's the actual identification with those characters.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Yeah, it's in movies and literature. One of my favorites is this movie. 10 Things I Hate about you. Do you know it with Heath Ledger, a classic, which is Taming of the Shrew. And you're watching it, and the stories are so robust and they're fun. They're plays. I mean, there's a reason why they were so popular during Shakespeare's time. I mean, they're entertaining. And I think one of the benefits of the modern adaptations, you're able to see the play then wholly. You're like, wow, okay, this is what it's actually supposed to be about. I also love when the modern adaptations will insert, like, some of Shakespeare's language, of course. Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet. They do the whole play. Have you seen that one? I have seen it with Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Yes.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

That's another really, really good one for sure.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

One of the things that Dr. Willison said is that the audience will project what they take away from the play onto Shakespeare's intent, which I thought to be an interesting way to think about it.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

And it made me think of another incidence of Shakespeare being banned in Arizona. They're not allowed to read the Tempest because it so called grapples with colonization, which is funny because colonization did not exist when Shakespeare wrote the Tempest. So again, it speaks to what we were just talking about, the idea that these books are so universal and continue to resonate. And so, you know, you read the Tempest today and you're like, oh, this is about colonization. You're putting your own intent into the book. Just as she said. If you want to read this book, Romeo and Juliet and think to yourself, oh, this is going to teach my child how to be rebellious and run away and fall in love and it's gonna end terribly, then certainly you can have that reading.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

There's so much about the conversation with Dorit Rabinian, and there's always a sense that, you know, these conversations are so fraught when talking to somebody who's in a live war zone dealing with the trauma that they're dealing with, that the next conversation will be easier.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Right.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

And it's not. This is from the moment she had this life experience, this relationship upon which she bases her book to the publication of the book through the restricting of book as part of the students list in Israel to the present day, it just gets more and more fraught. Her subject matter is fraught and her life experience is getting more and more fraught.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

This is a story that contextually is Israel and Palestine. It is, it's fraught, but now it's even harder. She almost couldn't talk about the book. And really that's what most of these interviews are. Of course, you know, the authors come on to speak about the characters, their writing style, and then from that you're able to pull the message from the book and then from that, something from culture. But this subject matter is still so raw and will continue to be that way. There is no separation anymore between what the book is and what she is as a fictional character and who she is as an Israeli woman.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

And that was really clear. Yes, those lines don't exist. Real life is challenging. It's threatening to blur out even her fantasy in her book. Yes, she talked about Hassan Hourani and his idea that if you can simply empathize, if you can twin people, that institutions will not solve these problems, governments will not solve these problems. We've all been misled, she said, but people can solve these problems. So in the depths of her despair, which is shared by millions of other people, she believes people, relationships, love, can overcome them. She just. Just doesn't trust institutions anymore. And I think that is a universal. But even in the depths of her despair, she still believes people can overcome.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Another parallel, I suppose, between all the rivers and Romeo and Juliet that I hadn't considered until after you guys spoke is this idea of the way you're raised and what your parents teach you. So in Romeo and Juliet, a big part of the book is this commentary on how part of the blame on Romeo and Juliet's death is on the parents. They just sort of foist this feud between the two families on the children, and they never explain why, and the reader never hears a reason. We don't know what actually happened between the Montagues and the Capulets. And she said the same thing. She said, yeah. I mean, your parents teach you these ideologies, whatever they might be, and even if you want to divorce yourselves from that, you can't really.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Right.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

We are who we were raised, you know, your parental influence or the influence of the way you were raised. Societal. Exactly. Yeah.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Dorit seems to have moved farther away from the idea that ultimately we are all the same.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Right.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

I'm curious as to whether that's a moment in time, because we are literally talking to her at one of the worst moments in time in the world, in the Middle East. It seems like the sentence on that one is not finished.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

I think perhaps here two things are true at once. Right. We can celebrate and see clearly that of course there are massive differences between you and the person walking down the street. No two people are alike. And yet also recognize that in so many ways, people want the same things. They want their families to be protected, success, stability, not having any regrets or whatever you might be striving for. In many ways, that's universal. So I think probably there's truth in both of those.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

She's humble enough not to think that she has a better or more sophisticated conclusion to this than anybody else does. She's feeling it as a human.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

You're probably the only person around who can really answer this, But I love the concept that we continue to explore throughout the band book club that when we cover these current events, it's more often than not it's been war over the past couple of years that it ends up being just something you get desensitized to. It starts to become about the numbers, the body Count. And I believe truly that when you read a novel or a work of fiction or a memoir, that that can bridge the gap and humanize. I mean, you're a person who uniquely is in the business of books, but is also really in the business of war coverage. So I'm curious.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Sadly, that's true.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Which is who else? I mean, really, Valjean, you can't cover.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

Wars or, by the way, school shootings or hurricanes, all the bad things that I cover. And lose your humanity.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Yeah.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

You can't do it. It cannot be done. It is a disservice to your viewer. It is a disservice to your soul. Right. If you don't cry every time you're broken.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

This is meant to make you cry. And that's what I loved about Dorit, is that the authenticity with which she wrote this book continues to exist within her.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Yes.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

She's crying for humanity right now. She's crying for her country. She's crying for her neighbors. She's trying to figure out what success looks like in a world where success doesn't even look like it's possible. And that is the fact, when you cover these stories, you can't find hope in the tragedy. You can't find hope in the bombings, in the bodies and the kidnappings and the hostages. You can't find hope there. You can only find hope in the idea that humanity is something greater and that ultimately something will prevail. That is not the horror of the numbers. That's how our brain processes it. We put it away. It's an abstraction. It was very clear from my conversation with her, there is no abstraction. I think it's really important that even those of us who are in the news business, not the fiction business or the literature business, understand that in the end, it's gotta be about humanity.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

Yeah.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

The only story we can ever tell is about people. And the only story she chose to tell in her book was about people. And that's ultimately the heart of the Velshi Band Book Club.

[Ali Velshi]

Right.

[Professor Sophie Duncan]

People telling stories about themselves or other people that readers can relate to. On the next episode of the Velshi Band Book Club, we're going to be looking at two books that connect generations of Americans. These two novels. Novels don't just capture the spirit of growing up, but punctuate chapters in an American student's life. They are Bridge to Terabithia by Katherine Patterson and the Perks of Being a Wallflower by Stephen Chbosky. Do not miss this episode reading as Rites of Passage. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. When you do, you'll be able to listen to the Velshi Band Book Club podcast ad free, along with other MSNBC originals like Prosecuting Donald Trump, how to win 2024 and why is this Happening With Chris Hayes Without Ads? Plus, you'll get episodes of Season two of the Belshi Band Book Club One Week early, as well as exclusive bonus content from this and other podcasts. Sign up now on Apple Podcasts. Ali I'm the host of the Velshi Band Book Club, Ali Velshi. Our producer and literary editor is Hannah Holland. Our Executive producer is Rebecca Dryden, alongside our senior producers Jared Blake and Dina Moss, with production support from Associate producer Nicole McReynolds. Our coordinating producer is Lily Corvo. The Executive producer of MSNBC Audio is Aisha Turner. The head of Audio Production is Bryson Barnes alongside our audio engineers Katherine Anderson, Katie Lau and Bob Mallory.

[Ali Velshi]

Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.

[Professor Geoffrey Wilson]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on.

[Ali Velshi]

Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for MSNBC [e-mail].