The Power of Dystopian Literature

Summary

Velshi Banned Book Club: The Power of Dystopian Literature
Episode Release Date: September 12, 2024

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Introduction: Understanding Dystopian Literature's Role in Democracy

In the episode titled "The Power of Dystopian Literature," MSNBC’s Ali Velshi, alongside literary editor Hannah Holland, delves into the significance of dystopian novels in safeguarding democratic values. Emphasizing that "reading is resistance," the Velshi Banned Book Club serves as a platform to discuss the contemporary relevance of classic and modern dystopian works, highlighting their role in challenging censorship and promoting critical thought.

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Exploring "The Giver" with Author Lois Lowry

Timestamp: [00:56] - [08:03]

The episode kicks off with an in-depth discussion of Lois Lowry’s acclaimed novel, The Giver. Ali Velshi underscores the novel's importance in introducing young readers to complex themes such as memory, choice, and individuality within a controlled society. Lowry describes a world devoid of color and emotion, where uniformity is paramount, and dissent is ruthlessly suppressed.

Notable Quotes:

• Ali Velshi: “Perhaps no genre more critical to the success of a democracy and the success of its country than dystopian literature.”
• Lois Lowry: “You're the generation that's going to make that determination” (relating to preventing dystopian realities).

Lowry emphasizes the book's enduring relevance, noting its translation into 32 languages and its impact on students worldwide. The conversation highlights how The Giver acts as a rite of passage for middle-grade readers, fostering a deep understanding of societal structures and personal freedoms.

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Dystopian Themes and Societal Control

Timestamp: [08:03] - [15:07]

Hannah Holland raises critical questions about the control mechanisms depicted in The Giver, particularly the role of "birth mothers" and the subtle enforcement of conformity. Lowry discusses the seductive portrayal of a seemingly perfect society that gradually reveals its oppressive underpinnings through precise language and restricted emotions.

Notable Quotes:

• Hannah Holland: “How do we keep this from happening?”
• Lois Lowry: “In our society, when left to its own devices, considers women a threat...”

Lowry recounts the polarized reactions to The Giver upon its release, including both outrage and reverence, illustrating the book's capacity to provoke intense emotional and intellectual responses. The discussion underscores the dangers of sacrificing diversity and freedom for security and uniformity.

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"1984" by George Orwell: A Canonical Reference

Timestamp: [15:07] - [31:20]

Transitioning to George Orwell’s 1984, the episode draws parallels between Orwellian concepts and contemporary political climates. The conversation highlights Orwell’s exploration of totalitarianism, surveillance, and linguistic manipulation—elements increasingly pertinent in today's society.

Notable Quotes:

• Ali Velshi: “1984 is, arguably, not a work of literature out there that has changed culture globally more than 1984.”
• Mark Stone: “Orwell would have absolutely no sympathy for any view along those lines.”

Experts, including Professor James McAllister and author Garrett Conley, discuss how 1984 serves as a critical tool for understanding and resisting governmental overreach and propaganda. Conley shares personal anecdotes on how the novel influenced his resistance against oppressive practices like gay conversion therapy, drawing direct lines between Orwell's fictional authoritarianism and real-world abuses.

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The Mechanics of Control: Language and Thought

Timestamp: [29:01] - [39:00]

The discussion delves into Orwell's concept of Newspeak and its role in limiting free thought and dissent. The panelists explore how language serves as a tool for political manipulation, a theme both The Giver and 1984 vividly portray. Garrett Conley relates Orwell’s ideas to modern instances of language control and censorship, emphasizing the ongoing struggle to maintain truthful discourse.

Notable Quotes:

• Hannah Holland: “The Ministry of Love is brainwashing.”
• Garrett Conley: “The impulse to ban books that even mention sex... is really disturbing.”

They examine the contemporary relevance of these themes, especially in the context of book bans and censorship efforts in various states, arguing that such actions mirror Orwellian tactics aimed at controlling public perception and suppressing dissenting voices.

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Gender and Power Dynamics in Dystopian Narratives

Timestamp: [39:00] - [43:49]

Holland and Velshi pivot to discuss the portrayal of women in dystopian literature, particularly in The Giver and The Handmaid’s Tale. They critique the inherent misogyny and the depiction of women as threats within these societies, drawing parallels to ongoing gender-based oppression and the struggle for female empowerment in contemporary times.

Notable Quotes:

• Hannah Holland: “The concept of women achieving the success to which they are entitled... still threatens people.”
• Ali Velshi: “Love replaces government and family in relationships like Winston and Julia’s.”

The conversation emphasizes the critical need to address and challenge the societal structures that perpetuate gender inequality, using dystopian fiction as a lens to understand and combat real-world injustices.

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The Importance of Open-Ended Narratives

Timestamp: [43:49] - [46:04]

The panel reflects on the narrative choices in The Giver, particularly its open-ended conclusion. Holland expresses a personal preference for definitive endings but acknowledges that the ambiguity serves to highlight the uncertain outcomes of resisting oppressive systems. This leads to a broader discussion on how open-ended stories can inspire readers to continue seeking truth and advocating for change.

Notable Quotes:

• Hannah Holland: “The adventure in your head is as legitimate as the adventure that you go on physically.”
• Ali Velshi: “This is a society where you should be left unsatisfied.”

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Conclusion: Reading as a Catalyst for Change

Timestamp: [46:04] - End

Ali Velshi and Hannah Holland conclude the episode by reaffirming the transformative power of dystopian literature. They argue that such works either inspire individuals to take action against injustices or provide a comparative lens to view and appreciate current societal conditions. The episode closes with a preview of the next installment, which will examine immigrant experiences through the lenses of How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents by Julia Alvarez and American Street by Ibi Zoboi.

Notable Quotes:

• Hannah Holland: “The arc of history does not bend toward justice. It bends exactly the way you bend it.”
• Ali Velshi: “The whole exercise is to push yourself to the brink of, like, how bad could it get?”

The episode effectively underscores the necessity of engaging with dystopian literature to foster critical thinking, resilience, and active participation in preserving democratic values.

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Produced By:

• Host: Ali Velshi
• Literary Editor: Hannah Holland
• Executive Producer: Rebecca Dryden
• Senior Producers: Jared Blake and Dina Moss
• Coordinating Producer: Lily Corvo
• Production Support: Nicole McReynolds
• MSNBC Audio Executive Producer: Aisha Turner
• Head of Audio Production: Bryson Barnes
• Audio Engineers: Katherine Anderson, Katie Lau, and Bob Mallory

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Stay Connected:
Subscribe to the Velshi Banned Book Club podcast on Apple Podcasts through MSNBC Premium for ad-free listening and access to exclusive content. Join the community in resisting censorship and fostering a culture of informed, critical readers.

Transcript

[Ali Velshi]

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[Lois Lowry]

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[Hannah Holland]

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[Lois Lowry]

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[Ali Velshi]

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[James McAllister]

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[Hannah Holland]

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[Ali Velshi]

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[James McAllister]

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[Hannah Holland]

Welcome to the Velshi Band Book Club. I'm MSNBC's Ali Velshi. There's perhaps no genre more critical to the success of a democracy and the success of its country than dystopian literature. These stories force us to confront the darkest possible realities we can imagine, the worst case scenarios, our deepest fears, fears we didn't even know we should have, and look them in the face. For many students, both in America and abroad, dystopian literature grows with us. Look no further than the runaway success of Suzanne Collins, the Hunger Games series, or James Dashner's the Maze Runner series. Children, adolescents and teens are fixated on the what ifs confronted by today's political and cultural uncertainty. The what ifs are not just more prominent, they're ever present at the center of this critical genre. Informing the books that have come after them are two classics, the Giver by lois Lowry and 1984 by George Orwell. Those are the books we will be exploring on this episode of the Welshie Ban Book Club. We discussed which could come first on this The Giver or 1984. On the one hand, 1984 is seminal. You cannot so much as discuss government overreach without the word Orwellian presenting itself. But the Giver comes first for readers. For many, for decades, the Giver was the first ever exposure to the critical thought that comes with that question of what if? So we're going to begin with the Giver, just like we did as elementary age students all those years ago. Let's get started. Would we be happier in a society without the brutality of war, without rain ruining our commute, and with babies that slept through the night from the day we brought them home? What Would you be willing to sacrifice for a place like that? What would you give up? Would you give up your freedom to choose or your individuality? How about creativity or love? These are the questions at the center of one of today's Velshi Band Book Club features the Newbery Award winning American classic the Giver by Lois Lowry. Set in a colorless, emotionless world that values sameness above all else, a world that mercilessly euthanizes those who do not fit in, the Giver tells the story of 12 year old Jonas. He is, by all community metrics, normal. He apologizes readily for anything he's done wrong. He chooses his words carefully and dutifully takes a pill every single day to suppress any pubescent feelings he may have toward his classmates. That is until his life assignment ceremony. While each of his 12 year old classmates are assigned their life's work to the fish hatchery, or as a doctor or as a laborer, Jonas has been selected as the community's next Receiver of Memory. That means the former Receiver, now called the Giver, will give every single memory of the collective society to Jonas. It will be he alone who will experience the pain, suffering, love and joy, all of which have been since taken from his society. Initially published in 1993, the Giver grapples with heavy themes including the weight of memory, the freedom of choice, societal and governmental control, and individualism. While dystopian literature, especially in the young adult and children's genres, has become increasingly popular in recent years, the Giver was among the first. The Giver is proof of concept that those weighty themes are not too complex for middle grade readers to understand. Lowry doesn't just use what is within the text to convey these themes, she employs her writing style to tell the story too. Lowry's style reflects the sterile and controlled community with direct language, unencumbered dialogue, and pointed descriptions. Indeed, precise language is one of the primary means of psychological control within the Giver. This is a society that has done away with feelings that cannot be so easily defined with words alone, including love. Father, mother? Jonas asked tentatively after the evening meal. I have a question I want to ask you. What is it, Jonas? His father asked. He made him say the words, though he felt flushed with embarrassment. He had rehearsed them in his mind all the way home from the annex. Do you love me? There was an awkward silence for a moment, then Father gave a little chuckle. Jonas, you of all people. Precision of language, please. What do you mean? Jonas asked. Amusement was not at all what he had anticipated. Your father means that you used a very generalized word so meaningless that it's become almost obsolete, his mother explained carefully. Jonas stared at them. Meaningless. He had never before felt anything as meaningful as the memory. And of course, our community can't function smoothly if people don't use precise language. Akin to Newspeak In George Orwell's 1984, the other novel we'll be discussing in this episode of the Welshy Band Book Club, Lowry's community has hyper specific vocabulary. The words are similar enough to language we use off the page to maintain the pace of the story. For example, newborn babies are new births and sexual urges are stirrings. The result is an unsettlingly successful Uncanny Valley effect. We know this place, these words, these ideas, but we know they're not the same. As Jonas begins to understand the power of emotion and memory, the writing becomes more vivid and more expressive. Humanity peeks through the cracks of the Giver from the very first page, but the reader does not truly begin to understand the lack of it until these moments of color and emotion. The very topics that make the Giver such a critical read are the same reasons it has topped the American Library Association's most banned book list year after year. While infanticide, suicide, and euthanasia are central to the plot of the book, the way with which the Giver handles these topics is what makes it such a classic. The Giver isn't violent or bloody or gratuitous. It is quiet and introspective and delicate. The Giver allows its reader to come to the conclusion that we must have reverence for human life, that our differences are our greatest strengths, and that the darkest parts of humanity are needed to make way for the most beautiful on their own time. The Giver is one of those rare works of literature that unites American school children. It is not hyperbolic to say that the Giver has become one of the most assigned contemporary works ever. The Giver has become a rite of passage for middle grade readers, a doorway through which they must pass to begin to consider their own humanity and their place in this world. I'm thrilled to be joined by a true literary legend, Lois Lowry. She's the award winning author of many important children and young adult works of literature, including one of today's Welshy Band Book Club features the Giver.

[Lois Lowry]

Thank you. I love the description of me as a legend.

[Hannah Holland]

You absolutely are. And you know, after having been introduced since, you know, 1993, we've got to get creative in how we do it. So we hope we did some justice to it, because this one's a test. This one is like interviewing Margaret Atwood on the Handmaid's Tale. So many people have read this book over the years that they know what we're talking about here, and yet it's newly relevant. I mentioned in the introduction that the giver is centrally about the power of choice and of individual freedom. That is, in my opinion, more relevant now than it was when you wrote the book.

[Lois Lowry]

I was just going to say the same thing. Every year. It seems more and more relevant. You mentioned kids in schools here, having all of them read it, usually in eighth grade. But I'll add to that. It's in 32 other languages. And I've talked to kids around the world, even in Iran, Turkey, Kathmandu, Romania, Thailand, and they all react to this book and they all want to know, how can we keep this from happening? And of course, I tell them, you're the generation that's going to make that determination.

[Hannah Holland]

Yeah, let's talk about how do we keep this from happening. I want to read from the book about one part of society they are referred to as the birth mothers. Quote, I think new children are so cute. Lily sighed. I hope I get assigned to be a birth mother, Lily. Mother spoke very sharply. Don't say that. There's very little honor in that assignment. But I was talking to Natasha, you know, the 10 who lives around the corner. She does some of her volunteer hours at the birthing center, and she told me that birth mothers get wonderful food and they have a very gentle exercise periods, and most of the time they just play games and amuse themselves while they're waiting. I think I'd like that, lily said petulantly. Three years, mother told her firmly. Three births and that's all. After that, they are laborers for the rest of their adult lives until the day they enter the house of the old. Is that what you want, Lily? Three lazy years and then hard physical labor until you are old? Lois, I want to ask you about this because we've had Margaret Atwood on about the Handmaid's Tale literally just days before the fall of Roe v. Wade. This concept of controlling women and their reproduction and forced birth is central to your dystopian myth.

[Lois Lowry]

And yet I tried to seduce the reader that's the role of the writer, of course, seduction into believing that this would be a wonderful, safe, comfortable world. It has, as you pointed out, no crime, no poverty, no discrimination, no divorce, no sexism, no war. And then only gradually, by the use of little passages like the one you just read does the reader realize that terrible compromises have been made? I hadn't thought about it until you chose that particular passage. But of course, the role of women is integral to the book. Incidentally, there are three more books that follow the Giver, and in the final one, the main character is the young woman who'd been a birth mother. So you get to find out what happens to some of them.

[Hannah Holland]

Look, all books are banned for the same boring reasons all the time. But one of them is that this is too much for kids. This is too much for them to understand. Tell me how you process that, because you really are dealing with concepts that are severe and serious and increasingly potentially real. How do you address the idea that 8th graders are prepared to deal with the heaviness and severity of the concepts?

[Lois Lowry]

Well, of course, I'm one end of the row, and the kids are there, and in between are teachers and librarians and parents, and those are often the ones with whom the kids interact and discuss this book. And that's where the important stuff takes place. I think in those discussions, I tried to write it as an adventure story. And it is that I was surprised when almost immediately after its publication in 1993, the reaction was so enormous and on both sides of the spectrum. For example, in one week, this happened in 1995. I can identify the date because of other things that were going on. But in one week I got a letter handwritten from a woman who was so outraged that you could almost see it in her handwriting, as if her hand had been shaking. And the first line of her letter was, jesus would be ashamed of you.

[Hannah Holland]

Wow.

[Lois Lowry]

Same week, I got a letter from a monk in a Trappist monastery who explained that Trappists are a silent order, but they are read aloud to at mealtime. And the Giver had been read aloud to his monk. And he said, no, there's a better wow coming up. He said that they voted to place it in the category of sacred text.

[Hannah Holland]

Wow. You're right. That's a bigger wow. One of the things in the society, in the Giver, is that the society is governed by the idea that sameness is the most important thing. Children are taught not to point out flaws or differences. Tell me a little bit about this.

[Lois Lowry]

It's one of the reasons in this comfortable, safe community, there's no discrimination. You only realize after a little while, everybody's the same. They're all the same color. There's no racism. How could there be? But in making that choice, and we don't know how that came about, in previous decades. But in making that choice, the community, the population, the government had let go, had rescinded all the richness that diversity gives to our lives. Everything that they have done has been a choice. That has been a sacrifice and a terrible compromise. And of course, it's the young boy who comes to realize that when people, people object to the book and try to ban the book, they're kind of caught because there's no explicit sex or violence. And so they, they take out of context small things that they think they might find objectionable. But I think what they're really objecting to is that a young person has perceived the hypocrisy and corruption of the governance of the generation that has created their world. And of course, that's very relevant today.

[Hannah Holland]

That's increasingly relevant today. And it's one of. When I said all books are banned for the same few stupid reasons, that's one of them, right? People who. Books that allow us to see the truth of what might be happening, especially in terms of control, is one of the key reasons. Lois, it's a real honor to have you here on the Welshy Ben Book Club. Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us today, the award winning author of the Giver, Lois Lowry.

[Lois Lowry]

My pleasure. I'm sorry you have to have this segment, but I'm pleased that you've taken it so seriously. It's such a dangerous time.

[Hannah Holland]

One day we will drop the band from the name. It'll just be the book club and we will be able to enjoy it. Thank you, my friend. We've got a quick break next, but after that we're taking a look at George Orwell's Magnum Opus, 1984. If the giver is a reader's first exposure to dystopian literature, then 1984 is the most effective. There is arguably not a work of literature out there that has changed culture globally more than 1984. From language to themes. This is just one of those books that leaves its reader changed. This is the Belshi Band Book Club.

[James McAllister]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.

[Ali Velshi]

Where let's get up to speed. We've got some breaking news right now.

[James McAllister]

Watch your favorite shows live.

[Ali Velshi]

There's a lot happening here in Washington as Donald Trump's second term starts to take shape.

[James McAllister]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app.

[Hannah Holland]

Donald Trump is heading back to the White House Together, we can truly make America great again. We are in for an unpredictable, fascinating four years and we're going to be following every twist and turn for the first 100 days.

[James McAllister]

We'll be bringing you the latest updates.

[Hannah Holland]

And analysis first thing every morning. So join me, James Matthews, me, Martha Calne, and me, Mark Stone for Trump 100 every weekday at 6:00am, wherever you get your podcast. Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? New York Times tech reporter Kate Conger on Elon Musk in the Trump 2.0 era.

[Garrett Conley]

I think a lot of other tech leadership is looking now at what Musk has been able to accomplish by aligning himself so closely with Trump and wanting to follow suit. And it is this very kind of transparent favor trading that's going on throughout the industry right now where people are feeling like, okay, I can cozy up to the president and that's going to have a beneficial impact for my business.

[Hannah Holland]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening?

[Ali Velshi]

Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

[Hannah Holland]

Quote, the party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. In January of 2017, then President Donald Trump's White House press secretary, Sean Spicer, demanded that the American public not believe their own eyes. Spicer and Trump's acolytes insisted that Trump's presidential inauguration was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration. Period. End quote. It wasn't. This is just one example. One out of thousands of times Trump would contort the truth and twist our reality. Quote, and if all others accepted the lie which the party imposed, if all records told the same tale, then the lie passed into history and became truth. Who controls the past, ran the party slogan, controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. In the days that followed Trump's inauguration, George Orwell's magnum opus, 1984, became the best selling book of any genre on Amazon, decades after its initial publication in 1949. Americans who had read 1984 in English class years before were hearing Orwell's warning ringing loudly behind their ears. In that moment, and in the years since then, it suddenly seemed that Big Brother and his immense cult of personality could be watching us right now. The crucial classic, 1984 by George Orwell is today's second Velshi Band Book Club feature. 1984 is set in a near future where a largely forgotten series of world wars and civil conflicts have created three infallible totalitarian states. One of them, Oceania is ruled by an all controlling leader, Big Brother, who is underpinned by a devoted cult of personality. Big Brother systematically murders anyone who does not conform to the Party, using constant surveillance, thought police and torture. Our hero is Winston Smith, a member of the Outer Party in Oceania. Smith works at the so called Ministry of Truth, rewriting and destroying historical records to conform with Big Brother's constantly changing version of history. With each lie he writes and rewrites, Smith's hatred for the Party and longing for rebellion grows. But Smith soon learns that to survive in this brutal world, you must love Big Brother. It is not enough to obey him, you must love him. The ongoing and profound cultural influence of Orwell's novel cannot be overstated. 1984 is ubiquitous. It's referenced in movies, alluded to in songs and borrowed from in literature. It is impossible to discuss authoritarianism, surveillance and the manipulation of the truth without invoking the book's title or Orwell's name. 1984 is more than just a warning, though. It's a masterful exploration of complacency, loyalty and identity. At its core, 1984 is a commentary on how all government, if left unchecked, will exert control to maintain power. The object of terrorism is terrorism. The object of oppression is oppression. The object of torture is torture. The object of murder is murder. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me? Big Brother's secret to control is clearly laid out for the reader. Exploit the truth and restrict language. Orwell's writing style is as integral to the book as the plot and the characters are. 1984 is written with frank language and straightforward grammar that mirrors the bleak and deadened life under the Party. Orwell masterfully intersperses fleeting moments of emotion and more sensory language to underscore Smith's emotional break from the party. Moreover, Orwell wrote extensively about the power of clear and deliberate language, especially when it comes to politics, arguing that politicians hide behind contrived words and canned verbiage. Orwell and 1984 have become a rite of passage for high school students across the country. Big Brother has been dissected by generations of young readers since the book's publication in 1949. With a country at such perilous crossroads, you would think that 1984 would be even more critical to students. But there are forces at work who believe otherwise. 1984 has been removed from library shelves across the entire state of Iowa in cooperation with a new law that restricts books that contain any description of sexual and it's been removed by local boards in Texas and in Florida and in Missouri and in Oklahoma and in Pennsylvania. Perhaps Big Brother was right all along and quote, ignorance is strength. We will soon see. I'm joined now By Professor James McAllister Orwell expert and professor of political science at Williams College and long standing member of the Welshy Band Book Club, Garrett Conley. Conley previously joined us on his memoir Boy Erased and shared how 1984 stopped him from becoming brainwashed at so called gay conversion therapy. Welcome to both of you. Thank you for being with us. And Garrett, when we were talking about this, we remembered that this was influential to you, not simply as an author, but as a child.

[Garrett Conley]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I read it in high school and didn't quite understand the full implications of 1984, as often happens. But when I was in conversion therapy, there were so many rules. I mean, we had 275 pages of rules in our handbook. And in addition to rules about where you could look, which sounds familiar if you read 1984, how you're supposed to hold your face. Right face crime is in the book. There were also so many terms that could have been Newspeak. Right? So like false images. If you had any image of yourself as a gay man in conversion therapy, that was evil and had to be corrected. And the goal ultimately was to love the people that were doing this to you. So I mean, I couldn't have asked for a better text to really have in my mind going into conversion therapy. And I remember I was asked, the place was called Love in Action, which sounds a lot like Ministry of Love in the book. Right. And what it really is is a place of hate. It's not a place of love. And that inversion of the idea is something that's very much throughout Orwell's writing.

[Hannah Holland]

Ministry of Truth is not actually about truth, it's about rewriting history. James Everybody, wherever you are on the political spectrum, people invoke the dangers of what 1984 portends. Elon Musk had a T shirt on that said, what would Orwell think? The strange part is that Trump's inner circle describes anti Trump sentiment as Orwellian, despite the fact that we watch those rallies every week that seem very Orwellian.

[Mark Stone]

Absolutely. Look, you know, in terms of our current political climate, I think Orwell would be worried a lot about a political candidate who sometimes appears like he's trying out for the role of Big Brother. But I think Orwell would also be incredibly concerned about things that are happening on college campuses, media, other things, the beauty about being Orwell is truth is all that mattered. And more importantly, I think Orwell always thought you have to be much more critical of your own side than even the other. You can't let your own side corrupt its own principles.

[Hannah Holland]

Let's address that issue of truth. We have absolute truths these days that people believe in and some of it is related to what side you're on. Right. We're in this world where you carve out a side and that's where you are. How do you reconcile things that are important to you with what is a truth?

[Garrett Conley]

Well, that's a hard one. I mean, for me, the truth must always be tested. Right? That's one of the ways that you check against fundamentalist thought is you have to be open to challenging your own beliefs and listening to your own side and also criticizing your own side when that happens. I happen to believe that there is a much more dangerous front coming from the right right now. You know, my book has been banned in so many states. The kid who found my book that wrote to me and said, I no longer want to commit suicide because I read this book. My parents wouldn't let me read it at home, but they'll let me read it in the library. Those things seem small to people. They seem like these book bans don't work, they don't do anything. But that signal is very important. I'm obviously much more concerned with that attack, especially the anti trans bills that are all around the country right now. But I would say within our own party, within our own side, we have to be willing to question our most sacrosanct ideas as well.

[Hannah Holland]

James, let's talk about book ban. 1984 has been a widely banned book for a long time. And the subject matter therein and the things that you said Orwell would be concerned about would in fact be book banning. Right? The idea that the government is controlling. I don't think anybody objects to the idea that people can choose what they want to read and that parents should have very direct and influential impact into what their children read. But we are in a world where people argue that the government or the library as a stand in for the government or the school as a stand in for the government should make those choices for you.

[Mark Stone]

Well, Orwell would have absolutely no sympathy for any view along those lines. You know, I think it's quite interesting to note that 1984 is a bestseller in Putin's Russia. You can buy 1984 in China. There's a lesson there. Both Putin and Xi Jinping realize the greatest support they could give to people who care about freedom is to ban books like 1984. And there's a lesson there, maybe for people in the United States too. You just make 1984 more attractive to people who are looking to be exposed to these ideas by banning it.

[Hannah Holland]

Garrett in the book, there's a relationship at the center of it between Winston Smith and a woman named Julia. They consider sex an act of rebellion against the Party. Talk to me about that connection between sex, repression and control.

[Garrett Conley]

Well, you know, I've been rereading 1984 for this appearance, and what has really struck me is this whole antisex, antisensuality idea that's within the book. And that rings TR to my own experience in fundamentalist Christianity and then later in conversion therapy, and I think writ large in the culture, there are certain types of sex which are allowed to be spoken about and certain types that are not. And I think that, you know, in the book, it presents a very clear thesis that the party is able to maintain its control entirely by reducing the desires that people have or by eradicating those desires, making the language impossible to discuss. Desire. Right. So all of literature cannot be allowed in that world. And I think that's a lesson for us, right? Like why is there an impulse to ban books that even mention sex? Like my book mentions sex only within the story as needed. And it was actually recommended by librarians as a young adult book as well. But it's being labeled as a book that is dangerous for kids to even learn about the fact that there might be gay sex in the world. And I find that really disturbing and, you know, very prescient.

[Hannah Holland]

Let me quickly talk about language. James. In 1946, three years before the book was published, Orwell wrote an essay called Politics and the English Language, which examined the special connection, quote, between politics and the debasement of language. He was very critical of political language writing, quote, political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable and to give an appearance of solidity to pure witness.

[Mark Stone]

Well, that all comes from Orwell's experiences in the Spanish Civil War where he was fighting in a so called Trotskyist militia and he and his fellow militia members were reviled, denounced, hunted down by communist forces. Orwell never got over that experience. For him, that was a crucial lesson in how people could actually turn a into its opposite. And he never forgot that. You can go right from the Spanish Civil War to both animal farm and 1984.

[Hannah Holland]

Thank you to our Orwell expert, Professor James McAllister. Professor of Political science at Williams College and friend of the Welshy Band Book Club. Garrett Conley, author of Boy Erased.

[James McAllister]

It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.

[Hannah Holland]

What issue matters to you the most?

[James McAllister]

Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

[Hannah Holland]

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[Ali Velshi]

Everybody he can count on this group of people again?

[James McAllister]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed, and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Ali Velshi]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[James McAllister]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Ali Velshi]

How do we strategically align ourselves to.

[Hannah Holland]

This moment of information, this moment of.

[Ali Velshi]

Transition in our country?

[James McAllister]

The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Hannah Holland]

Back with me now is Hannah Holland, our literary editor and chairman emeritus of the Belle Che Band Book Club. Hannah, let's talk about this.

[Ali Velshi]

I love the fact that you said, you know, Boy Erase was one of your favorite features we've ever done in the Valshe Band Book Club last episode. And then here he is back again. You said in the introduction that 1984 is a basis for dystopian literature, particularly with the Giver. But clearly it's true of all genres, because his book isn't dystopian in the traditional sense. Right? I mean, maybe it speaks to a dystopic part of our society.

[Hannah Holland]

You know, I have really loved all of our authors, and you've helped curate this in a way that they're all really different. But something about Garrett Conley, Boy Erased, really struck me. And some of it is in the book, and some of it is his telling of why he wrote it and what he went through. And there are so many elements about this book in which he talks about his family and the love he has for his family, the role that religion and a conservative upbringing played in his family, and the fact that he did not reject that religion wholesale.

[Ali Velshi]

I don't think it was me who thought to book him for 1984. I think that was Lily Corvo. But the book that you just described doesn't seem like it could be connected with 1984.

[Hannah Holland]

I didn't think of it either. But it was Lilly, because it didn't occur to me that this book is influenced by 1984 totally.

[Ali Velshi]

And then here he is sitting there saying, you know, I read it as a 15 year old or however old he was. And he was like, wow, I was able to use 1984 and stave off this teaching. When he mentioned this in the conversation about how his so called gay conversion therapy center was called Love in Action.

[Hannah Holland]

Right. And it didn't occur to me. That's the Ministry of Love, literally. And now obviously, while you and I are sitting here, it's like, well, that's as obvious as the nose on my face.

[Ali Velshi]

Completely.

[Hannah Holland]

That gay conversion therapy is brainwashing. Ministry of Love is brainwashing. These are the fascinating things about books and the influence they have on people. You could be reading Garrett Conley's book Never having read 1984 or having read 1984, not know they're connected and yet.

[Ali Velshi]

Now understand and even knowing that sometimes people will say things that you know aren't true or make you say things that you know aren't true. And to internalize that from 1984 and apply it to your actual life and a real situation is unbelievable.

[Hannah Holland]

Right. I also like what McAllister said about how Orwell was only concerned with the truth.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah.

[Hannah Holland]

And being critical of your own side.

[Ali Velshi]

It's interesting. 1984 is in this weird position because both sides of the aisle sort of use it or weaponize it. But more than that, it is such an American idea to be critical of your own government and your own institutions. Put that into the context of this book of 1984 and the framing of it. It's like, well, I can apply that all the time. You know, like that's how you figure out what the truth is. You critique the government.

[Hannah Holland]

I am intrigued, though. I often bring up the example of parliamentary democracy in which the opposition is referred to as the loyal opposition. Their job is to be the opposition. Right. They're not thought of as interlopers the enemy. They are part and parcel of the process of governing. And the one thing we've lost sight of in America is the other side's the enemy. It's a fight to the death. Elections in parliamentary democracies are fights also. And you want to beat the other side. But there is an institutionalized role for the opposition. They are called the loyal opposition because they are there to critique the government. It's a concept we should really understand because these days we live in a world that's so Polarized. That when you offer critiques of your own government, you are called unpatriotic or you hate your country or whatever the case is. That's the furthest thing from the truth.

[Ali Velshi]

And I think sometimes people might think they're giving up ground like, oh, I support this one candidate, therefore I can't say anything negative. Because then the other side will be like, oh, see, there you go. And like, that isn't the case.

[Hannah Holland]

But that's the critical thinking that 1984 talks about. Right. The idea that once you've lost your ability to be a critical thinker on all things, on anything, it's a very easy slope to accept everything your side tells you or the government tells you or gay conversion therapy tells you.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah.

[Hannah Holland]

Let's talk about Winston and Julia's relationship.

[Ali Velshi]

Yes.

[Hannah Holland]

There's an interesting book, Sandra Newman's book. It's a feminist interpretation or a feminist take on 1984. And it positions Julia as the hero.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah. And I think this is such a good idea. You talked a little bit about their relationship and how central it is to 1984 and this idea that Big Brother and the government replaces love and family and intimacy with the government. But there is also misogyny inherent to 1984. Winston has these violent thoughts about Julia, and she isn't as well fleshed out as Winston is. Or also this society, you know, so much of what makes 1984 so amazing is like the world building, but she doesn't get that same treatment.

[Hannah Holland]

Right.

[Ali Velshi]

So, you know, for.

[Hannah Holland]

And which. But Julia, the book does. Yeah.

[Ali Velshi]

And I think that's such a good idea. I love that. Yeah. Something else I wanted to bring up. I think it's maybe in bad taste to bring up the end of a book, but we're not spoiling anything. There is an appendix at the end of 1984 called the Principles of Newspeak, and it outlines the language that's used throughout the book, as you discussed in the interviews, a mode of control from the government. And it's written in past tense. So a lot of people think that this is signaling that Big Brother didn't last. And Oceana Fell. What are your thoughts on that?

[Hannah Holland]

I suppose the idea, the critique, continues to say, this isn't going to work the way they're doing it in 1984 isn't going to work. So it does allow you to draw your own conclusion that it didn't work.

[Ali Velshi]

I'm somehow, even though we both work in this news industry, still a bit optimist. So I love it. I'M like, this is the most bleak society imaginable. The language is bleak and sad and deadened. It's gray and okay, we know Winston doesn't succeed, but it stands to reason that if he was able to get as far as he did, other people will try and someone will succeed.

[Hannah Holland]

Which is another element of this book that is suddenly contemporary. I mean, so many people that I feel like telling everybody, I have this conversation with a lot of you. All these people who think that they're kind of alone in the fight or they're fighting back. It's like, no, probably most of society feels that way, but something has happened that has made us feel like we are rolling this thing up the hill on our own. If you feel that way, there is something to be said for examples that are trying to demonstrate that perhaps you can have some impact, or if you don't even know that you can have impact, at least you're going to try.

[Ali Velshi]

I mean, small acts of courage.

[Hannah Holland]

Yeah. I would argue that in our society, the contemporary example of that is you probably have more community than you think. But it can seem bleak. And there are people who look at the situation we're in globally, with some of the wars we're in, the conflicts that we see and climate and polarization, and it can feel overwhelming and bleak.

[Ali Velshi]

It's reminding me of something you said last episode that your great grandfather, I think, didn't even know that the seed he. I'm gonna. Now I'm gonna butcher your beautiful.

[Hannah Holland]

My grandfather.

[Ali Velshi]

Yes.

[Hannah Holland]

Didn't know that the seed he planted would result in a tree.

[Ali Velshi]

Yes. I love that.

[Hannah Holland]

That there would be. That someone could sit in its shade, that someone could eat its fruit and.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah. And so if Newspeak is in past tense, and Winston did fail. We know that. But he planted a seed.

[Hannah Holland]

It does, it does. It does make the read interesting.

[Ali Velshi]

But we have to also talk about the Giver, the other book that was featured in this episode, the part that I think was the most compelling. I mean, she's amazing and it all was wonderful. But the connection you made between Margaret Atwood's the Handmaid's Tale and the Giver, I loved it because it isn't a part of the book that people think about as much. It's this small passage, and we learn that part of this society has these quote unquote, birth mothers, and they're forced birth and they're not respected. So I don't know. I mean, I'm curious what you have to say about that. Like authoritarianism and women I mean, that's part of both of these books, right?

[Hannah Holland]

I think it's not normal for us, you and I, and our listeners to think about the degree to which society, when left to its own devices, considers women a threat. Our religious books are filled with references to women as threat, as temptress. It is a common theme in religion that all would be fine if women were not constantly leading us astray. And then you combine that with empowered women, anybody who, in society's view, is stepping out of where they should be. You know, it feels anachronistic, but it's not. In 2024, the concept of women achieving the success to which they are entitled, though qualified, still threatens people. I remind people this is still the country that has not yet elected a woman president. This is something that's been achieved around the world in a whole lot of countries that are nowhere as enlightened or politically advanced or free as America. This shouldn't be as hard as it is, but we really struggle with this. And so I think both the Giver and Handmaid's Tale all put the idea of women as threat and then the need to control women in the forefront, because you can't really justify the control over women that we try and exercise if you don't have some reason for it. And the justification, of course, is they are threat left to their own devices. Crazy stuff's gonna happen.

[Ali Velshi]

And Lauer even said that she said something to the effect of. It's never even crossed my mind, but women are central to this, the success of this government. And of course, the Handmaid's Tale is one of the most seminal dystopian novels in its own right. But you'll have to listen to season one for that.

[Hannah Holland]

That conversation with Margaret Atwood was amazing.

[Ali Velshi]

Something else Lowry said that I thought was interesting was that she intended for the Giver to be an adventure story. And I think this idea that authors set out to create something and then it turns into something else, and the Giver is hugely successful. It's amazingly compelling. It's a classic for a reason. But to me, it does not read as an adventure story.

[Hannah Holland]

So I guess it's a matter of casting what you think an adventure story is, because I like adventure stories. And that's the section to which I would gravitate in a bookstore or a library. And I'm sort of with you. It didn't occur to me that it's an adventure story, but I get it now that I. The issue is raised. I understand that the adventure, the growth, the journey if you will. I think about it as a very physical thing. An adventure story is traveling, Indiana Jones getting into an airplane or getting on a motorcycle and going somewhere. Very traditional, probably masculine view of what adventure looks like. Although there are a number of women authors who center women in adventure stories. And that's becoming much more common in.

[Ali Velshi]

But you're right, that's the classic, the hero's journey.

[Hannah Holland]

Right. This adventure is in Jonas's head. Yes, that's the distinction. It's still an adventure, it's still a journey. And frankly, why not?

[Ali Velshi]

And this is just occurring to me now, but how could it be any other way when he's in this hyper controlled society? Of course the journey has to be internal.

[Hannah Holland]

I interviewed Vladimir Kara Murza, who was in solitary confinement for 11 months in Russia. There's no way I wouldn't think of that as an adventure. But he had nowhere to go. He had a tiny little cell. They even took out the bed every morning and reinstalled it. So there was nothing there. Nothing. He could write for 90 minutes a day. That was an adventure. And in that writing he was so creative. He won a Pulitzer Prize for his work that he wrote from his prison cell. His days consisted of in his cell and one hour in which he could walk around a space that was a little larger than his cell, which had an open roof. So at least you could see that there was light outside. He didn't go anywhere. And yet there's no world in which I wouldn't think, if I read a book about that or read his work, I wouldn't think it's an adventure.

[Ali Velshi]

Yeah.

[Hannah Holland]

So the adventure in your head is as legitimate as the adventure that, that you go on physically.

[Ali Velshi]

Totally. I have one more question about the Giver. So people are very upset about one part of this book. It has an open ended ending. So Jonas leaves and we're not sure if he dies with his baby brother. How do you feel about open ended literature in general?

[Hannah Holland]

Well, so notwithstanding the fact that this is a remarkable book in general, that troubles me. I love things that end very cleanly, that say the end. I do like series. I do love reading more work by authors. So to the extent that not having a very clear ending makes me think I wanna read more about it. That's interesting. But I will always worry about resolution because in my head, if I'm watching a play or reading a book, I'm ahead of myself. I'm always waiting for how will this end. And the good thing about me is that I'm so imperceptive that I can never tell. I can never read the clues that, you know, the music and the scene in a movie where you definitely know this person's gonna die. The foreshadow.

[Ali Velshi]

I do not think that that's.

[Hannah Holland]

There's no foreshadowing. I can't read foreshadowing ever, under any circumstance. So that's why I need conclusion. That said, this is a great book, and I did like the choose your own adventure stuff, you know, when I was a kid, so who knows? Oh, totally.

[Ali Velshi]

Those are great. And I'm with you. I mean, I get it. This is a society where, like, you should be left unsatisfied, you know, so great. Okay. I feel.

[Hannah Holland]

But I'm very simple.

[Ali Velshi]

You know, everyone there feels unsafe.

[Hannah Holland]

You know, my consumption habits. Doing the Velshi band book club is, by a very long shot, the most sophisticated and intellectually stimulative thing I've done in my entire life. Right. These are fantastic books, and I enjoyed reading them. And I've enjoyed reading them in many cases when I was growing up. Some of them that you've introduced me to are not things I read growing up. They're entire genres that were not nearly as developed when I was growing up, including young adult literature. And that's what many of our members have written to us to tell us about, that they didn't know this story. They were never exposed to it, which is the entire point of the whole exercise. Read something you don't know and let your brain go to the places it goes to. How many people have we talked to who have said by reading certain books, it allowed them to imagine a different world?

[Ali Velshi]

I think that that is also the whole point of dystopian literature and why it's so important to push yourself to the brink of, like, how bad could it get? Which sounds horribly pessimistic, but it's crucial.

[Hannah Holland]

Reading dystopian literature will do one of two things to you. It'll either scare you into action, or it'll cause you to say, perhaps things aren't as bad as that.

[Ali Velshi]

Right.

[Hannah Holland]

So.

[Ali Velshi]

And both are good. Both could be true and useful.

[Hannah Holland]

But to the extent that it does cause you to take some action, that may not be a bad thing. As I often say, the arc of history does not bend toward justice. It bends exactly the way you bend it. All right, this is what we've got coming up. Coming up on the next episode, we're going to continue to explore the idea of reading as a rite of passage. A little bit later in the season of the Welshy Band book club. Like 1984 and the Giver, there's some literature that punctuates a young person's life even across generations. But before then, on the next episode of the Veliban Book Club, we're going to take a look at two books that explore the immigrant experience for young Women written over 25 years apart, how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents by Julia Alvarez and and American street by Ibi Zuboi. Prove how much changes in two decades and how much stays the same. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. When you do, you'll be able to listen to the Vel she Band Book Club podcast ad free, along with other MSNBC originals like Prosecuting Donald Trump, how to win 2024 and why is this Happening with Chris Hayes Without Ads? Plus, you'll get episodes of Season two of the Velshi Band Book Club One Week early, as well as exclusive bonus content from this and other podcasts. Sign up now on Apple Podcasts. I'm the host of the Velshi Band Book Club, Ali Velshi. Our producer and literary editor is Hannah Holland. Our executive producer is Rebecca Dryden, alongside our senior producers Jared Blake and Dina Moss. Our coordinating producer is Lily Corvo with production support from Associate producer Nicole McReynolds. The executive producer of MSNBC Audio is Aisha Turner. The head of Audio production is Bryson Barnes, alongside our audio engineers Katherine Anderson, Katie Lau and Bob Mallory.

[James McAllister]

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[Hannah Holland]

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[Ali Velshi]

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[James McAllister]

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