BONUS! Daily Review with Clay Travis and Buck Sexton - Apr 22 2025

Summary

Verdict with Ted Cruz: BONUS! Daily Review with Clay Travis and Buck Sexton - April 22, 2025

Released April 22, 2025

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Overview

In this special bonus episode of "Verdict with Ted Cruz," hosted by Clay Travis and Buck Sexton, the hosts delve into critical discussions surrounding COVID-19 policies, media narratives, higher education funding, and immigration. Featuring insightful interviews with investigative journalist David Zweig and Congressman Chip Roy, the episode offers a comprehensive analysis of recent political and societal developments.

COVID-19 Policies and Historical Analysis

Clay Travis initiates the conversation by highlighting the publication of David Zweig's new book, "Abundance of Caution: American Schools, the Virus, and a Story of Bad Decisions." He emphasizes the importance of Zweig's work in documenting the missteps in COVID-19 policy, particularly the decision to shut down schools. Travis remarks:

"We knew early on that much of the COVID failures were inexcusable, but what is the lesson that will be drawn in the decades ahead for people who are studying this era of history?" [01:02]

David Zweig elaborates on his motivation for writing the book, recounting his personal experiences during the pandemic. He discusses the stark contrast between public and private school operations, noting:

"Millions of kids were back in school in Europe, but in the U.S., public schools remained remote, causing significant harm to underprivileged children." [24:00]

Media Narratives and Joe Biden's Fitness

A significant portion of the episode addresses the legacy media's portrayal of President Joe Biden's mental and physical health. Buck Sexton critiques media outlets for their unwavering support of Biden, even amidst evidence of his declining capabilities. He cites an interview where Elizabeth Warren defends Biden's cognition, stating:

"He was sharp. He was on his feet. I saw him live events." [06:15]

David Zweig counters by emphasizing the lack of substantive praise, pointing out that being "on his feet" is not equivalent to robust mental acuity. He criticizes the media's failure to hold politicians accountable, stating:

"They know there's no upside to speaking the truth about Biden. Anything that goes against Trump is incentivized within their ecosystem." [07:07]

Travis adds to the discussion by mentioning the cessation of fact-checking on major networks, attributing it to the culmination of Biden's cover-up strategies and Trump's electoral impact:

"The Joe Biden cover-up ended the misinformation and disinformation era." [09:28]

David Zweig's Insights on Media and Policy Failures

During his interview, David Zweig provides an in-depth analysis of how the legacy media and establishment institutions failed during the pandemic. He recounts instances where data contradicted official narratives, only to be dismissed by authorities like the CDC:

"When I contacted the CDC with conflicting data, they dismissed it without investigation, revealing a blatant disregard for truth." [32:20]

Zweig underscores the importance of evidence-based reporting and urges listeners to demand transparency and accountability from media and government institutions.

Higher Education Funding and Discrimination Practices

The conversation shifts to the burgeoning issue of federal funding in higher education. Clay Travis raises concerns about the $60 billion in taxpayer dollars allocated to colleges and universities in 2023, questioning the efficacy and transparency of such investments. He asserts:

"Why should taxpayer money be funnelled into universities that are already financially robust, like Harvard, with endowments exceeding $53 billion?" [38:28]

David Zweig responds by highlighting the systemic discrimination embedded within institutional policies. He critiques Harvard's admission practices and its reliance on federal funds, arguing that:

"Harvard has engaged in long-standing discriminatory practices and benefits excessively from federal subsidies without adequate accountability." [43:48]

Travis advocates for universities to emulate institutions like Hillsdale College, which operates independently of federal funding, suggesting:

"Hillsdale has successfully maintained its educational mission without relying on taxpayer dollars. Harvard should follow suit." [44:34]

Immigration Policies and Legislative Challenges

In the latter part of the episode, Congressman Chip Roy joins the discussion to address the ongoing immigration crisis. Stewart criticizes Democratic efforts to manipulate immigration laws to benefit political agendas, particularly focusing on high-profile cases like that of Abreu Garcia. Roy explains the structural challenges in enforcing immigration policies, noting:

"The administration's approach overwhelms our legal systems, making effective deportation nearly impossible without significant legislative reforms." [54:52]

Buck Sexton underscores the intent behind Democratic immigration policies as a means to gain political power rather than address national security concerns:

"It's all about political power. Democrats are flooding the country with non-citizens to build their political base." [57:08]

Future Implications and Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with Travis and Sexton reflecting on the broader implications of their discussions. They emphasize the necessity for evidence-based policymaking, media accountability, and systemic reforms in higher education and immigration law. The hosts encourage listeners to stay informed and vigilant in questioning official narratives.

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Notable Quotes

• Clay Travis: "The Joe Biden cover-up ended the misinformation and disinformation era." [09:28]
• David Zweig: "They know there's no upside to speaking the truth about Biden. Anything that goes against Trump is incentivized within their ecosystem." [07:07]
• Chip Roy: "It's all about political power. Democrats are flooding the country with non-citizens to build their political base." [57:08]

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Conclusion

This bonus episode of "Verdict with Ted Cruz" provides a critical examination of recent political and societal issues, emphasizing the need for transparency, accountability, and evidence-based decision-making. Through engaging discussions with experts and policymakers, Clay Travis and Buck Sexton offer listeners a deeper understanding of the challenges facing contemporary America.

Transcript

[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

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[David Zweig]

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[Clay Travis]

Today welcome in Tuesday Edition. Clay Travis, Buck Sexton Show. Appreciate all of you out there listening and hanging out with us. We have got a bevy of stories to dive in with all of you today. Congressman Chip Roy, great state of Texas will join us at 1:30 Eastern Time. David Zweig, who I would say Buck of the left leaning media may have been the most honest person in the way that he covered Covid for New York magazine if I remember correctly back in the day and he's got a book out that is just savaging the decision to shut down schools that he wrote about for some time masking all of the chaos that came out of COVID And I think we will enjoy that conversation with him and I hope that his book, which is designed to be an early version of the historical record of what we went through with COVID will become a clarion call for those who are pursuing truth going forward on the historic record. Because one thing you and I have been talking about for years now is not only we knew you and I early on, that much of the COVID failures were inexcusable, but what is the lesson that will be drawn in the decades ahead for people who are studying this era of history? And I hope we are starting to get some of that truth out into the public record. As you know, you read the book, the great influenza book that everybody suddenly started buying up during COVID And much of the way that we responded to the influenza epidemic, the Spanish flu, back in the 1919 ish era, unfortunately, was reflected 100 years later. And one of the things that you saw, Buck, and we'll dive into this a little bit later with David Zweig, but just off the top here, one of the things that you saw was people just didn't want to talk about it. They just kind of put it in the background and pretended that it hadn't happened at all. Now that was much more traumatic in general because the percentage of people who died was higher. But the people who died from the Spanish flu tended to be much younger, whereas the people who had Covid issues in this country, thankfully tended to be on the, on the older end of the spectrum. I say thankfully because you didn't have otherwise fully healthy people dropping who otherwise would have had decades of life. Thankfully, Covid did not have hardly any impact at all on the young. Because if you had reversed this and Covid had had the same impact on the super young that it did on the age, I think the way that America and the world responded would have been very different. But this book that he is writing, I've got a copy of it in my house and I've already started to read it a little bit, is I think an important historic record. So we will talk with him at 2. Speaking of important historic records, all of the books are now being written that we told you would be written in the wake of the 2024 election having to do with Joe Biden and the mental and physical lies about him being at the peak of his abilities are now being exposed. You can go back in time. We told you they would try to protect him as long as they could. They would argue that he was sharp as a tack. Now even Jake Tapper, who tried to argue that any attacks on Joe Biden for his mental and physical health were cheap fakes. Uh, now even he has written a book that is going to be out I think in the next couple of weeks. Uh, and even left leaning media are now holding their politicians feet to the fire when they do interviews. This interview that I want to play for you guys is of Elizabeth Warren. Buck does a very good Elizabeth Warren impersonation, if I must say so myself. This, they, this is. I want to make sure that I give credit because I got an email from these guys saying hey, we're an independent podcast and can you, if you're going to share this, this is on the Talk Easy podcast, this is Sam Gregoso interviewing Elizabeth Warren and they have this exchange about Joe Biden's. Did I mispronounce that?

[David Zweig]

Did you say Grigo? I think it's Fredoso. Right.

[Clay Travis]

The way I have it written here is Gragoso. But it's possible our team changed the, got the name wrong. But Fragoso or Gragoso.

[David Zweig]

No, it's Gragoso. You're right. I should just shut my face, keep going.

[Clay Travis]

This is, this is the podcast that it's from. I just wanted to give them credit, Elizabeth Warren being held accountable for her lies and listen to how she responds to the questions about Joe Biden's physical and mental well being. This is cut one.

[David Zweig]

Do you regret saying that President Biden had a mental acuity? He had a sharpness to him. You said that up until July of last year.

[Clay Travis]

I said what I believe to be true.

[David Zweig]

And you think he was as sharp as you?

[Clay Travis]

I said I had not seen decline.

[David Zweig]

And I hadn't at that point. You did not see any decline from 2024 Joe Biden to 2021 Joe Biden. Not when I said that. You know, the, the thing is he.

[Clay Travis]

Look, he was sharp. He was on his feet. I saw him live event. I had meetings with him a couple of times.

[David Zweig]

Senator, on his feet is not praise. He can speak in sentences. Is not praise.

[Chip Roy]

Fair enough, fair enough.

[David Zweig]

What you have to remember here is that was he an out and out vegetable? No, he was not. He was able to open his eyes and blink and I did not see an SOS coming from him. And so Clay, Clay, I saw him.

[Clay Travis]

On his feet is in all timeline he was able to stand is an unbelievable defense by Elizabeth.

[David Zweig]

It's like the conversation you would have about somebody who was declining and like change their will in the last days. Were they of sound mind or not? Well, I was on his feet. We're talking about the President of the United States, the Commander in Chief, and she is saying essentially he wasn't a full blown vegetable. So don't blame me. I just kept going with the rest of the crowd here. She's not alone. All the rest of them did this too. And I think that more than anything what happened here, Clay, was that the anti Trump media became so. It was like a river that could only flow in one direction. And nobody was ever, nobody was ever told. What you're saying is too crazy. And I mean nobody at msnbc, nobody is in the Democrat Party. New York Times, New York Times, Washington Post. Whatever you said about Trump, he's Hitler. He's worse than Hitler. He's a. He's a. He's a monster. He's a rape. Whatever it was, was actually supported by the infrastructure of the Democrat Party. The apparatus was cheering for it. So all corrective mechanisms were gone. And so when you have that, you can have a situation like exactly what transpired, where they just knew there's no upside to speaking the truth about Biden. Anything that, that is going to go against Trump is incentivized within our own ecosystem. And so they all just had their marching orders. As crazy as I was going to say, like lemmings. But as you will see in my new book, which has finally been cleared by the CIA, lemmings don't commit mass suicide, everybody. That's a crazy story. But. But there's other things that you talk about in the book that you will like as well. Yes, Clay, this was something that they now have to take some degree of accountability for when there's really no pain politically for them because they can't move on without addressing it at some level. Because people like you and me will just keep on dunking them under the water on this, as we should.

[Clay Travis]

You know, I thought it was interesting, too. I saw a graphic, I think it was from Axios this morning that the coverage of misinformation and disinformation has basically ended on CNN and on msnbc. They're not trotting out their fact checkers anymore. I would submit to you, Buck, that the Joe Biden cover up ended the misinformation and disinformation era. Now, Trump winning obviously had a substantial impact on that as well. But when the entire left wing media, legacy media lined up together, and I think you're right, that maybe the most devastating single statement that anybody made was Joe Scarborough basically lighting his entire career on fire when he said this was the best version of Biden. His show hasn't recovered and those networks haven't recovered from this.

[David Zweig]

So, so here's. Here's the thing. Elizabeth Warren is trying to rewrite history in real time here in this way. It's not, Clay, that they said the narrative at the time. Go back to exactly what you brought up with Joe Scarborough. The narrative at the time wasn't Biden isn't as bad as they say. He's semi coherent and maybe we can push him across the finish line and then have VP Kamala take over. That would have been somewhat disingenuous or, you know, that would have been dishonest, but on a scale of 1 to 10. Dishonesty level 6 or 7. They went to dishonesty level 11, which was. Biden is the best he has ever been.

[Clay Travis]

Right?

[David Zweig]

Biden is in fact the sharpest version he has ever been. Which just goes to show the desperation in the lie. You know, that that's what this really was. It wouldn't be enough to try to just soft pedal and say look, he's lost his fastball, but you know, I think he can still get it done. That's not what they were saying. They're saying Biden's fine. How dare you bring anything up. It was Stalinism level propaganda. It was this guy. It's like Kim Jong Il and un and Kim Il Sung who can all hit holes in one every time they play golf. You know, it was that level madness.

[Clay Travis]

Let me. By the way, you are correct. It is Sam for Goso.

[David Zweig]

Oh, oh, look at the buckster.

[Chip Roy]

He thought, you know, he's got a.

[David Zweig]

Got a sharp ear. I'm just trying to help.

[Clay Travis]

So our staff, who I'm immediately going to throw under the bus when they write it, they wrote it as Sam Gregoso, but his Sam Vergoso who had that interview. And I do give him credit because anyone who said that Biden was able to serve as president in a fully honest media, they should have to answer for that. They should have to explain why they said that. And not only the, not only the politicians. Have you ever heard Joe Scarborough be asked or pushed in any way on that viral clip where he argued that this was the best version of Biden that had ever existed. Has anybody held Helm accountable?

[David Zweig]

To be fair, I think that he is just trying to ride out things and wait and wait so that by the time anyone asks him about like I don't think he's putting himself in a position where even Elizabeth Warren, because she's not as bad based on the sound bites with this as some of the others. She's trying to take the medicine. Now I think Scarborough knows that it's, it's brand annihilation that he faces if the wrong person gets him on the hot seat and asks him this question. You can't come back from that. Why should someone listen to Joe Scarborough about anything? If he's that dumb or that dishonest, why would you care what he thinks about a single thing in existence? I don't want to. I don't care what ice cream flavor he thinks is bad.

[Clay Travis]

I. Yours is answers pistachio. Which is by the way, maybe even worse than Joe Scarborough's Answer would be, to be fair, you see this incoming.

[David Zweig]

That us pistachio lovers get from. From Clay and just flute playing ways outrageous.

[Clay Travis]

We'll take some of your calls on this. I do think that these conversations that we're going to have with David Zweig are important. And if you are out there and you argued that this was the best version of Biden, the two by four is coming for you because these books are coming out and everyone in the legacy media is trying to cover their backsides on this. And so they're now covering the release of the books and every little detail. For instance, uh, I'm reading that Biden was supposed to do his prep work from Camp David and he got too tired and he just went outside by the pool and fell asleep. Which is. But remember, they were telling everybody his prep has been amazing. And then they tried to say, well, he has a little bit of a cold after the. After the debate performance. Imagine you're trying to prepare the president for debate, and he's like, I'm tired. And he just goes outside by the pool and falls asleep. That's a story that's out there right now.

[David Zweig]

Know there's a movie, the Death of Stalin, that's actually pretty clever for what it is. And it's. It's a farce, right? But it's. What does everyone do when Stalin dies around him? The Fall of Biden movie that you could make where you basically go Weekend at Bernie's. I mean, you just. It would be if. If anyone in Hollywood wanted to take this idea, it would be utterly hilarious, and I think everybody would want to go see it. And you could base it off of the real stories here.

[Clay Travis]

By the way, I will say as we go to break, imagine what Jill Biden saw. Imagine what the wife of the president, the first lady, what she saw. I still think she is maybe the biggest villain here because she was willing to drag his basic corpse right across the finish line so she could keep living in the White House. I mean, she is. Imagine.

[David Zweig]

I have a. I want to. Just because I feel like fighting with Clay today. I have a very different take on Jill Biden that I would like to share when we come back. I have a very different take than you on this.

[Clay Travis]

I did not expect. She is, to me, the worst villain here. Buck thinks she's a hero. We'll talk about it.

[David Zweig]

No, no, no. That's not the take. You naughty man. We'll come back, though.

[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

One thought at a time Clay, Travis and Buck Sexton.

[Clay Travis]

Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Zweig]

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[Clay Travis]

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[David Zweig]

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[Clay Travis]

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[David Zweig]

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[Clay Travis]

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[David Zweig]

There's free unlimited virtual primary care and urgent care. With just a $30 copay, you get generous cash back reimbursements for doctor's office visits, emergency room visits and ambulance transportation.

[Clay Travis]

You can have affordable health care for as low as $262 a month. Today visit ease forever.com clay that's ease for everyone.com forward/clay paid for by Affordable Benefit Choices. Welcome back in Clay. Travis. BUCK SEXTON show Appreciate all of you hanging out with us. Rolling through the Tuesday edition of the program. And we are joined now by David Zweig, investigative journalist and author. He's got a brand new book. I think you guys are going to love it. I've already started to check it out. We've got it at the home. Buck is holding it up right now. An abundance of caution, American Schools, the Virus, and a story of bad decisions. David, thanks for joining us in our New York City studio. I know we've had you on before and I think it's fair to say that a lot of your reporting was not necessarily well received by people on the left and that you are not some far right wing conspiracist conspiracy theorist. You just did something wild. You looked at the data and you were willing to write about what the data showed. And you were, as Buck and I have both been, profoundly angered and still angry over the failures of American public policy as it pertains to Covid. What pushed you to write this book and what do you hope that people take from it?

[Chip Roy]

That's a, it's a very good assessment. Yeah. In the beginning, very early on, it seemed reasonable to me. I wasn't knowledgeable about what was happening. I live right outside New York City. Okay. The schools are closed. Everything shut down. But very quickly after that, I watched my kids just wilting away in the kind of the gray light of their Chromebooks sitting alone in their bedrooms. And I was like, this isn't going to work for a long period of time like this. This, how can this be? And from there I just started kind of researching and digging in. I was in the middle of writing a book on a totally different topic at the time. But this was just so crazy what was happening. I wanted to learn more about what was going on. And very quickly I started to speak with experts in Europe and elsewhere because you couldn't speak to them in the United States. And it was very obvious that, that there was no reason for the schools to remain closed. And that kind of set me off on this path. And as you noted, this very much was what was termed a contrarian view against the establishment. And it was certainly a challenging position for me writing for mainstream publications to get my reporting in there. But I pulled it off. And I think people kind of perceive me, I think it's true, as basically the only guy who's really able to do that, to write a number of pieces. They were all backed by evidence showing why the establishment view was so wrong.

[David Zweig]

David, you said something I want to return to if I can. You said that there was no reason for the schools to be closed, there was no medical reason for the schools to be closed. But I am sure in the course of your research you found a whole slew of nonmedical reasons or rationales or horse trading that led to the continuation of public school closures. While, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I know that system pretty well went to, you know, went to Catholic school there. There's private schools, parochial schools. Public schools, parochial and private, were open for business in that, in that fall after the initial pandemic. And yet public schools were remote. Why?

[Chip Roy]

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that's so remarkable and, and it's, it's almost astonishing that this actually happened in real time. And it's kind of one of the main reasons of why I wrote this book was to make sure that what happened isn't just memory hold. And the idea, as you noted, kids were in school in private schools. They were in school in red districts and in, you know, red states, while at the same time a kid could be down the block in public school and he was kept home while his best friend, you know, in a different area or went to private school, was in school every day. So the irony to me is that on the left, which traditionally perceives itself as being that the heroes of the underprivileged in our society, they championed the rules and the guidelines and the policies that actually harmed underprivileged kids the most. And it's like one of the most tragic ironies of, of the pandemic to me that this was the result, that you had people vigorously, it wasn't just advocating, but as you know, anyone who disagreed was immediately vilified. You were some right wing crank. You were a piece of garbage if you disagreed with them.

[David Zweig]

Well, I mean, I am a right wing crank, so I can imagine what it would be like for you.

[Chip Roy]

Yeah, I was a turncoat.

[David Zweig]

You're not one.

[Chip Roy]

Yeah, I was Benedict Arnold here. I was, I Was, you know, immediately cast aside. I was called a murderer. You know, how could you do this? One of the things that's so important that, that, that. And this is kind of like the original sin that I talk about in the book in the. At the end of April, in the beginning of May in 2020, schools began to open in Europe. And it's not just like some little school in Tibet somewhere with 12 kids we're talking about. Millions of kids were back in school. And the European, European Union, the education ministers met in. In May. And at that meeting, they said, we have observed no negative consequences of opening our schools. They met a second time in June. They had the same determination. No one reported this. I ultimately reported it myself in June. But this is kind of an astonishing thing. This wasn't, you know, a random blog. This wasn't an obscure medical journal. This is the European Union and their official announcement regarding opening schools where millions of kids were in. There was. There was no negative consequence. And as far as I am aware, no one in the U.S. media reported on this meeting. That sort of set things on the course, you know, where we were just kind of never to come back from that.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, so I want. That's an important point. I want you to expound upon something that happened that a lot of people have forgotten in June of 2020. And I may get the official name wrong, but it was like the American association of Pediatricians or something like that, said schools needed to open back up and we could do it safely. That was a big story in June. And then Randy Weingarten and the American Federation of Teachers somehow kind of got into their universe and they ended up. You probably. I'm sure it's in the book. It is. They ended up reversing their guidance. What do you think now when you see Randy Weingarten going around on show saying, oh, I never said that I wanted schools to be shut down. What does the evidence show us? And how important was it from a science perspective for those pediatricians? And I remember their argument being, David, correct me if I'm wrong, that while the virus wasn't going to go away, kids had far more to gain by being in school than they did to fear from the virus. That was June of 2020. And then they completely reverse themselves under political pressure.

[Chip Roy]

So what happened was the American Academy of Pediatrics put out guidance that was unambiguous. It said, we've got to get kids in school. Don't even worry about six feet of distancing. If you can do it, great. But if you can't, don't worry. Just three feet is fine.

[Clay Travis]

Whatever.

[Chip Roy]

Just get the kids in the building. Shortly thereafter, Donald Trump tweeted, we must open schools in the fall. All caps with a bunch of exclamation points. Within days, the American Academy of Pediatrics put out a new statement. Gone was any mention of don't worry about distancing. Gone was the idea of get kids in school no matter what. And instead they mentioned money. It's really important for a lot of money to flow to schools. And then the second important thing about that revised statement was who authored it. And it wasn't just the American Academy of Pediatrics. It was co authored with the two largest teachers unions in the country. The it was so stark what happened that even NPR reported on this. But I gotta tell you, this is part of a larger thing. And I talk about this a lot in the book where I show this behind the scenes thing that was going on. So as I started writing these articles challenging the sort of dogma and the establishment view, people started reaching out to me from around the country. Parents, regular people, but also a lot of doctors. And these are doctors, not just some suburban pediatrician, but people who are at elite institutions, our top, you know, university hospitals in the country. And they were saying, hey, thank you so much for writing this. I just want you to know I think it's terrible what's happening with kids. I think these policies for keeping schools closed and these mask mandates, there isn't good evidence behind this. Schools are open in Europe, all these things. And they said, but all this has to be off the record because they were afraid to be cast out by their peers. Or in many instances, they were explicitly told, and I have examples of this in the book, they were explicitly told by their superiors, by the administrators at their hospitals, do not say anything about this. So I had this bizarre experience where I'm observing this narrative that's going on in the culture, this sort of manufactured consensus that wasn't real. And I had this very lonely, strange experience where I'm getting all these text messages and emails and I'm talking with all these doctors who are disagreeing with this. But the dissent was silent. I wasn't allowed to talk about it, and they were too afraid or weren't allowed to speak about it themselves. So my book gives what I hope is this deep behind the scenes account of what actually happened during the pandemic, not the narrative that we were all fed. And I'm hoping that when people finish reading this that they're Going to be armed with enough information so they can actually understand and see how the gears turn within the legacy media and how they turn where they are working in conjunction with different institutions of power. So it's not just for a pandemic, but for when any other crisis happens that your listene and they're like, oh, I read about that in Zweig's book. I see exactly what's happening now.

[David Zweig]

We're speaking to David Zweig. The book is an abundance of caution. I have my copy in my hands here. American Schools, the Virus and A Story of Bad Decisions. One of the reason why I have you on, David, is we like to reward people who were right when it mattered and did good work when it mattered on this issue. So congrats on the book and we hope people will. Will pick up a copy because I think that's very. It's very important. Right. It's a lot easier for people to jump on the bandwagon now, but we know that you were early on this and you got heat to just one. I mean, Clay might have a question for you in closing. I don't know if you're a sports fan or you like the SEC or anything, but that's always a possibility here at the end too. But if you were to walk around right now, you know, sort of tell us what it's like on the other side of it, because they'll still talk to you. They won't talk to us that much. Some of them listen to the show because it is so entertaining. But generally speaking, we have a center to right audience. If you walked around Park Slope or you walked around, I don't know, you know, Santa Monica and just talk to people who watch, I don't know, CNN read the New York Times at the LA Times and said, hey guys, the next time around we're all. We're all clear that we don't shut down the schools for this, right? Are they clear on that?

[Chip Roy]

I think there's been a softening. So I think that's. That's the good news. The bad news is, is that there is this revisionist history. There's this narrative that they've been pushing, which is in the beginning it was, we have to close schools, we have to do all this stuff. Eventually, when it was so obvious that that wasn't beneficial, it was so obvious this was only causing harm, then they shifted. Then the narrative was, well, this is regrettable, but it was an understandable thing. This was a fog of war decision. It was chaos. We did the best we Could. And what I show in the book over and over is that information was known in real time. And that example about the European Union is just one of many. They knew what was happening, it was ignored or it was dismissed. So when you asked me that question, my fear is that when the next crisis happens and it doesn't have to be a pandemic, that once again that there's this excuse of we're building the plane as we fly it, we don't know, sorry, we're doing the best we can, don't accept it, it's not true. Demand evidence. And that's what my book is about at its core is you can't say stuff without providing evidence. And over and over, and I cite these long examples in the New York Times and all these other media out, they kept quoting all these experts, saying things, but they didn't provide any evidence. They never challenged them. Journalists shirked their core duty, which was to actually question the statements by those in power. So I'm hoping my book will act as a counter, as a corrective as this is an actual real history of what happened and it works as its own guidebook to help arm people to understand how the gears turn behind the scenes so we can try to prevent something like this from happening again.

[Clay Travis]

Last question. You came from the left and Buck's right. I'm just curious from your perspective, we hope that the historic record 20, 40 years, 60 years from now is going to be a worthy lesson. How much less faith do you personally have in the so called legacy media than you did before COVID happened? So David Zweig 2019 compared to David Zweig 2025, how are you different?

[Chip Roy]

I would say, if I may, not just the legacy media, but the entire left establishment, if you will. My, my experience during the pandemic and what I observed and what I experienced as a journalist actually chasing down the evidence and the facts has completely shattered my entire worldview that I had. I was a smug liberal. I've always been an independent. I was not like a staunch Democrat. So I was an independent minded person. But I tended to believe in these institutions. And what I observed and experienced was the absolute failure and these people who are the good guys. I recount some stuff in the book about. I had evidence from Arizona, the state itself, which differed from a study that the CDC put out. And when I contacted the cdc, I said, hey, I have evidence that I have data that's differing from what you have in your study. And I knew what they had was wrong because I had the official data. And their response to me was we look through it. There are no errors when you can't come back from something like that. And like I remember just like kind of hunched over with like a migraine that night talking to my wife. So to answer your question, I, I just feel entirely differently about how the world works and, and you just can't recover from something like that when you know, you would think something like the NSA or defense department might pull some type of BS on that. This was, this was a health department and the cdc, they were lying through their teeth right to me in email saying there were no errors when I knew we, they knew that I knew and I knew that they knew that I knew that this was complete BS and they didn't care. You can't recover from something like that. So my book is filled with kind of that type of stuff where I, this was, this was almost like a cathartic endeavor where I had to set the record straight. So people, and hopefully not just your audience though I know they're going to be receptive, I think, but I'm hoping that I can persuade some independent minded people as well. That's my real goal is like to help people see what's really going on.

[David Zweig]

David Zweig, everybody. An abundance of caution. David, thank you so much.

[Chip Roy]

Yeah.

[David Zweig]

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[Buck Sexton]

Clay Travis and Buck Sexton.

[Clay Travis]

Mic drops that never sounded so good. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton show. There is now another legal dispute that is underway. Harvard is reportedly Going to sue Trump and the Trump administration over the withholding of billions of dollars in taxpayer dollars that have otherwise been going to the. The university Harvard, but also a lot of other universities. And I grabbed this stat and credit New York Times where it was, and I shared it on social media the other day. I don't know if you have seen this yet, Buck, but we are going to spend, or we did spend in 20, 23, 60 billion dollars in, in taxpayer money more to colleges and universities, 60 billion dollars. Harvard is getting billions of that, but the money is being spent many different universities across the country, and this was 30 times what they spent in 1953, if you account for inflation. So there's a graphic, and I shared the graphic in the New York Times, had it up and you look at it, and what we are spending on universities blew my mind. Here is a question for you because I would put this in the same category. Now, the defense of this is going to be saying, okay, well, they're doing research and we want them doing research, development, all these different things. If it's such a great idea, why aren't the universities funding their own research and development? Why is it the responsibility of you and me and so many of you out there listening to us right now to not only potentially be paying tuition and room and board that is exorbitant for many of these colleges and universities nationwide, but for us also to be funding with our dollars huge amounts of the bureaucracy that exist at these universities. I actually give Trump credit. I never really thought about it before. I didn't know the dollars were this extensive. Did you know that we were given $60 billion to colleges and universities? And why should we be doing this?

[David Zweig]

Well, you know, one thing that you've heard a lot about is this is for research for R and D. Okay, like what? Yeah, I want to know that if we're hearing this, because there's a lot that you can say is research. I mean, is this the kind of research where we're spending money to find out the mating habits of, you know, tsetse flies or something? Like, what exactly is this money being spent on at these schools? Or even worse, is it looking at. Is it just a lot of people being hired to do sociology research to forward the. The progress of DEI initiatives? I mean, we have no idea. Right. So your first point, Clay, did I know or do I think the general public had any idea how much money was going to universities? I knew the answer was that there was money and it was considerable. I didn't know it was $60 billion. That's a lot. And the second part of it is, well, this is where you get more into the Doge piece. What, what exactly is this money being spent on? And then you can add to that. Well, hold on a second. Why are we to fund these universities? We've already decided that the government's going to backstop the loan. So now everyone can get a loan to go, I'll just be honest, to a worthless four year college degree at a place or whatever, at a place that does not have any incentive really, to make sure that its graduates are getting jobs that can help them pay back the loans. Because it doesn't matter to them. It's not their problem. Right. The colleges and universities have no incentive to address what the job market actually looks like. Now, I'm not saying they don't do any of this, but from the macro view, it's just there's no skin in the game for the colleges and universities. And this is why the tuition keeps going up. Because why not? Because it's not their problem. The government is backstopping this stuff and anybody can get these loans. So that's part one of it, or rather that's part three of it. And I just think that then you add to this the ideological realization that we all have had for a long time, but just what factories of insanity these places are. And I think that the campus pro Hamas stuff was just the latest iteration of this. But I mean, I had friends who were in law school, Clay, during the George Floyd stuff. And what was law school and what was being sent around in law schools was nuts.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah.

[David Zweig]

You know, you want to talk about, do you think any of them thought that Derek Chauvin should get due process? This is law schools.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, of course.

[David Zweig]

Of course not.

[Clay Travis]

I also think this ties in and I'm going to start hammering this really aggressively. NPR said that Trump was going to fire Pete Hegseth. You can go read npr.org or npr.com or whatever the heck their website is. It is full on left wing propaganda daily. We compete with them. Why should, regardless of what your politics are, why should NPR be getting millions and millions of dollars in government funding? We don't get millions and millions of dollars in government funding. We don't get favorable treatment when it comes to ad dollars being allocated basically from the federal government. If we're directly competing with npr, which we are now. You know, you guys have brains, so you probably don't listen to NPR that often, but in many of the 550 some odd stations that we are on on a daily basis. There are a lot of stations out there that will be top competing options with us will be npr. There are lots of places out there where you might live or you might not get this show and you get npr. Why is that not one of the first things that they would cut to your point on Doge Buck. And if NPR says, well, we're not getting that much money, and they make the argument that, okay, why are you getting any at all? And you are, because it's coming through local advertisements and everything else. I don't think a single red scent of taxpayer money should go to subsidize NPR's coverage in any way of their media outlet. In the same way that I don't think we should be spending millions of dollars on Politico subscriptions or anything else. We shouldn't be giving them a penny.

[David Zweig]

Yeah, well, why? I mean, sure, the government, the government in general, you don't really want. In the business of business. You want to let the American people do that. Would we want the government to create a really bad smartphone company? No, I think that there's plenty of people already in that space. There are plenty of people in the media space. We don't need incumbents who are little piggies at the trough of government funding to continue to do what they've been doing. So I completely, completely agree with that. And on that colleges and university side of things, it's very clear. I mean, Harvard is just the most prominent example. Understand this, everyone. Harvard has been violating the Constitution for years with its admissions policy policies. Now, you could say at the time, Harvard thought they were operating within. Okay, fine. I'm not saying that we can hold them responsible after the fact in a legal sense, but I do think it's worth noting that Harvard has engaged in a long practice of discrimination. And when it comes to discrimination, just look at section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. Places end up being punished or being watched very closely for historical discrimination in some cases for decades or more.

[Buck Sexton]

Right.

[David Zweig]

I mean, this is the reality of discrimination law is that once you find a place that has discriminated under the law, they are under a dark cloud of suspicion for a very long time. Legally speaking, mind you, look at section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Although I think now that Supreme Court's even looked at that and changed the formula. But put that aside. You know what I mean? In general, I think, Clay, on this issue, Harvard has shown everybody that the plan is to continue to get the money. But to not have to abide by federal guidelines or. So why should you have your cake and eat it? To Harvard plus.

[Clay Travis]

Amen.

[David Zweig]

It's effectively a hedge fund that also has classes at this point. It's got an, you know, what is it, 80 billion, 60 billion, $53 billion.

[Clay Travis]

Endowment, as most recently. We don't know what it's been for like the last year and change. But to your point, when you take federal dollars, you agree to be bound in some way by federal guidelines. And the most basic of federal guidelines is don't discriminate on the basis of, of race and make sure that everybody has an equal opportunity to be educated and they're not going to be discriminated against based on ethnicity, religion, anything else. They failed during the protests surrounding the October 7th related incidents. And many other universities failed as well. I told our team to get Dr. Larry Arn. There was a great article interviewing him in the Wall Street Journal Weekend Edition. He is the president of Hillsdale College. Hillsdale made the decision. We want our educational mission to be completely independent of the United States government. And so we are not going to take any of their dollars. Hillsdale has way less money than Harvard does. And they have managed to run their university independently without needing federal dollars. Why wouldn't that be the standard for Harvard? Unless buck, they were feeding at the trough of special interest dollars. They've got a $53 billion endowment. They can't afford to run their university without taxpayer subsidies.

[David Zweig]

You would think, you would think, you know, Harvard. At one point, the reporting was that they were planning to just batten down the hatches and do without the federal funds. But I think they've realized, well, hold on. It would be for a number of years here you start to do that math and those hundreds of millions of dollars feel like it's, it actually adds up, even for Harvard. So this is, this is a moment that we've been waiting for on the right for a long time, which is just more accountability. These universities have been given tremendous preferential treatment. Tremendous preferential treatment. Right. I mean, whether it's about the tax, tax policy, supporting the student loans with government backstopping, which I think is a bad idea. Now, even the discussion, although, you know, Trump is going to start Trump's Department of Education. Not a Department of Education. Who, who's behind the loans? Who does the loans? Student loans.

[Clay Travis]

They're going to start underwriting. Yeah, it's a good question.

[David Zweig]

I'm wondering who does the collection on that? I don't know. But Anyway, they're going to start collecting money again because I was like doe, that would actually mean they do something that they're supposed to do. Yeah. So I think that you're going to see more people paying attention to this issue than they have in a while because of that. And I also think that the universities have betrayed the mandate that they've implicitly been given by the American people, which is to educate future leadership and make our people as smart and competitive in a global marketplace as possible. Instead, they're educating a ton of foreigners. Okay, start with that. Cuz the foreigners pay full freight. No, no help with the tuition, whatever. You go to a lot of the elite universities and everybody's from Beijing and Dubai. This is just the truth. Not everybody, but huge percentages of these classes and they've become left wing indoctrination factories that are churning out kids who don't know anything that's not good. So they're getting slapped down. I like it.

[Clay Travis]

I also would point out, I think there are massive lawsuits to be filed here. Some of these education loans are indefensible. For instance, you shouldn't be able to take out a loan of $200,000 to get a social work degree. You can never pay it back when your job. And look, I appreciate the people who take jobs that don't pay that well, but the fact that these universities would loan somebody 200 grand to get a job where you're going to make 40 grand a year, it doesn't ever add up that you can ever pay these things off. To me, they're predatory also. I think this is a function of, hey, we should be teaching actual basic math and investment and understanding in schools. Because the people who agree to these loans, I don't think they have any concept of how impossible it is to ever pay them back.

[Buck Sexton]

Right.

[Clay Travis]

If you're a lawyer or doctor, someone getting a master's degree in business or something like that, you could.

[David Zweig]

I wouldn't, I wouldn't even tell people to get. Look, I looked at getting an MBA and from fancy places and I didn't do it. Now I'm sitting here with Clay. So I went into media instead. I think the advanced, I think advanced degrees, people need far more honesty in this discussion. Most advanced degrees are not worth very much. And a lot of advanced degrees are truly worthless. In fact, they put you deep in the hole. A perfect example, journalism. Don't ever get a master's in journalism. It is a waste. I'm not even, I don't even know how journalism schools still exist. Like that's a whole. It is a waste of your time and a lot of master's degrees in the humanities unless you are convinced you're going to get a teaching job. That is the only thing that they are worthwhile to do. And those are very hard to come by, right, Clay? I mean, you look at this stuff.

[Clay Travis]

Most advanced degrees, I don't think people do the math. And I think unfortunately we have a lot of people who don't understand how loans work and a lot of people who don't understand how interest rates work. And you don't even sit back and think how you're going to bankrupt yourself basically getting a degree that never pays.

[David Zweig]

I actually I qualified for master's credit from Georgetown School of Foreign Service as an undergrad. So I got master's credit as an undergraduate. You know what the master's credit was for a class just like the classes I was taking in undergrad. I remember thinking, so I would just go to school for two more years to do two more years of reading books that I could read on my own. I don't think so.

[Clay Travis]

Lessons in Life from Clay and Buck as hard as the Israelis have tried to return to a normal life, difficult to do. Nearly every day there's talk of another missile attack on one of multiple fronts. You never know which direction it might be coming. I was over there in December and I saw for myself how dangerous it can be. That's why we're partnering with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews to help provide life saving aid and security essentials. Your urgently needed gift today will help provide security essentials like bomb shelters, flak jackets, bulletproof vests. Your gift will also help first responders by providing armored security vehicles, ambulances and more. Join us in standing with Israel. The importance of knowing the entire world cares about you and stands by you is important to Israeli citizens and IFCJ delivers that message every single day. Call to make your gift at 888-488-IFCJ. That's 888-488-4325 [e-mail] to give that website again. Supportifcj.org keep up with the biggest political comeback in world history on the Team 47 podcast. Clay and Buck highlight Trump replays from.

[Buck Sexton]

The week Sundays at noon Eastern.

[Clay Travis]

Find it on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Zweig]

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[Clay Travis]

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[David Zweig]

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[Clay Travis]

You can have affordable health care for as low as $262 a month. Today visit ease for everyone.com clay that's ease for everyone.com forward/clay paid for by Affordable Benefit Choices.

[David Zweig]

Welcome back into Clay and Buck. We got Congressman Chip Roy with us now. Sorry I got my guest time slots confused here. But he's fantastic and we appreciate him being here with us. Congressman Roy, appreciate you. And so let's talk about this. Why are your colleagues all of a sudden taking these taxpayer funded boondoggles down to El Salvador? What do they think they're going to prove with this?

[Buck Sexton]

Well, it's kind of hope we're going to talk about A and M&UT baseball in Austin, but we'll cut, we'll get to that in a little bit. But, but look, we've got, we've got my Democratic colleagues are doing what they do best right now. And what I mean by that is they very much believe, and I believe they mean this, they believe that non citizens should vote. They believe that non citizens should be able to flood into the United States frankly at whatever level they see fit regardless of the law. And they believe that they're in better standing to try to go defend somebody who has very obvious ties to Ms. 13 with two courts having acknowledged that very strong reality or likelihood and they're fine going down to try to defend them rather than standing up for the Americans who were hurt. Now I mean a lot of people have been saying this, I mean nothing new about what I'm saying. But look, I got to be very personal here. When I've gotten to know Alexis nungre, the wonderful 28 year old woman whose daughter Jocelyn was murdered last summer by Trende and Agua outside of Houston. That's a real person, a real individual who lost their life directly as a consequence of the people released into our country. And now Democrats want to go to El Salvador to hold up as the poster child an individual who has an order of removal, who had his wife go, like, file charges against him, who was stopped transporting a carload of illegals in a car and who has known affiliation with MS.13. And that is the poster child for who Democrats would have put front and center. Not Rachel Moran and her family, not Jocelyn Nungrave's family, not Kayla Hamilton's family. And that's how out of touch Democrats are. But the good news is President Trump is trying to do the right thing, and Republicans in Congress, hopefully are waking up to try to support what President Trump is doing.

[Clay Travis]

How much of this is just a big structural issue? We were talking earlier in the show, Congressman, about the fact that this is just basically a math problem. If Biden is going to have, as he did, let in, around 10 million illegals. And if you look at the rate with which Trump is able to deport, let's say he's going to be able to get 350,000 people from inside the country out. Basic math would say it would take 30 years of that to get the 10 million that just came in in the last four years, to say nothing of all the people who come in before. How much of this is structural in that the president has to have the ability to get people out of the country as easily as the prior president had to let people into the country? That's the real battle here, in essence, isn't it?

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, that's very well stated. And so for those of us who in 2019, 2020, even under the Trump administration, who was dealing with the conflict complexities of the law, to try to secure the border himself, and ultimately Covid was a part of that as well. But then all through the Biden administration, when we were all saying, guys, they're doing this on purpose, they're violating and abusing parole and asylum in our country, we put in place these laws to try to help people, and they're abusing these to flood the zone. It's intentional because they know how hard it will be to remove them right now. Think about this. Democrats are doubling down on this guy. Imagine what they'll do when it is the, you know, grandmother, you know, who is not a criminal or doesn't have a criminal history, who came here illegally and was wrongfully paroled into the United States, put ahead of other people flooding our zone, burdening our systems and Medicaid and hospital and all that, but isn't a criminal. You know how that will go. And to your point about the numbers, okay, this is why the president and why his team are fighting this so hard. The president needs to have significant authority and I believe does to push back and release people who were wrongfully put into the United States who are citizens of other countries. It is the only way to have a sovereign nation. I believe that the president, I believe the vice president, I believe Stephen Miller, I believe Tom Homan, I believe they are all correct when they are trying to push back on that notion.

[David Zweig]

Speaking to Congressman Chip Roy out of Texas. Congressman, and what is it that they. I asked Clay this yesterday. We tried to walk through this. So to make the Democrats who were going down to El Salvador not for vacation but to meet with Abrego Garcia to make them happy, Trump would negotiate a, I guess a deal or put in a request with Bukele, the president of El Salvador, to bring this illegal back to America so that then we could say, hey, he's an illegal and send him back to El Salvador. Or is it just that they want to bring him back and then try to jam up the process so he gets to stay? Like what is their preferred outcome?

[Buck Sexton]

The goal of Democrats is to empower courts to be able to process every single individual who was paroled into the United States or released into the United States under asylum laws, under Biden, which is million people, and to be able to say that each one of them has an individual claim and due process. Right. To get into court to adjudicate the claim. And I don't believe that is accurate. Right. They had an administrative process for going through and determining what their status is, but they do not. Like, this is not due process in the sense for all your listeners out there. Right. These individuals aren't charged with a crime like murder as a non citizen. They come in here and they murder somebody. Or I mean, some of them are, by the way. But in this question, it's not that as to whether, okay, are they getting due process, are they getting a lawyer, are they getting a chance to go into court and prove their guilt or innocence? This is literally a question of status and it's an administrative process and they're trying to get into court. So, yeah, I mean, Stephen Miller outlined this pretty well when you describe the situation with the, with Garcia down in El Salvador is saying, well, okay, you want to fly him back here, well, we can release him to some other country. Right? So even if you accept that we can't send him to El Salvador because he's threatened by some other gang, which was his position five years ago, he would still be deportable to another country because a judge has already issued a order of removal and that is not to the best of my understanding, appealable, other than in the context of the administrative proceedings in question. It's not a due process claim. So this is what Democrats are trying to do. They're trying to game the system in order to achieve the objective, their objective of NGOs going into court and filing suit on every individual who is released into our country. So the president cannot release or remove them by class as Joe Biden allowed them to come in by class.

[Clay Travis]

Congressman Chip Roy with us right now. Earlier this show, we started off with a clip that I bet you've seen that has gone viral of Elizabeth Warren trying to explain why she in any way backed the mental and physical fitness of Joe Biden. I'm curious, what is the long term fallout in your mind of the biggest lie that's been told in a very, very long time when it comes to the legacy media? And also behind the scenes, were Democrats in Congress, were they acknowledging that they thought there were issues with Biden but they wouldn't say it publicly? How much discussion do you think there was among Democrats about what all of us, and certainly we've been talking about on this show for years, could clearly see?

[Buck Sexton]

Well, to the second question which relates to the first. For the most part, my Democrat colleagues had a handful of friends who would very honestly and openly acknowledge their concerns when you'd have a private conversation, but they were very tight lipped about it publicly because the overwhelming motivating factor for Democrats for the last nine years has been hostility to Donald Trump. That has literally been their entire motivating factor. So it did not matter to them that Joe Biden was very clearly mentally not present. I don't know if you all remember, but last July after the debate when.

[Clay Travis]

I think we lost it there for a sec, it broke up. See if we can get him back here. Sec to finish up the interview. The other thing that's, that's floating around out there, Buck, is all these books coming out. I wonder on some level whether the Abreu Garcia conversation and everything else is a desperate attempt to keep people from looking at all of these stories that come out. I understand it's in the past, but it's such a miscalculation to me to focus on Abreu Garcia as the front facing element of the Trump deportation policies, that I just find it almost incomprehensibly dumb that this could be as calculated of a decision as it appears to be that you could decide, hey, this is the ground upon which we want to fight and I think we've got Congressman Chip Roy back with us right now.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, sorry about that, Clay. All I was saying was I introduced a resolution calling on the vice president to carry out the 25th Amendment. Right. And why I did that was because it was very, I wanted to call the question because it was important that the question get called. But to your point, Democrats, let's get back to the core basis which by the way, relates to the border issue and immigration. They don't care. It's all about political power. It is literally all about political power. And I wish I didn't have to say that. Right. I mean, it oughtn't to be that way. I'd be able to sit down with some of my Democrat colleagues and figure out like issues that are important for our people. But right now it is animus towards Trump and it is about opening the floodgates to people to try to build a political base for themselves, for power. And that's it. That is driving everything they are doing. It's about political power.

[David Zweig]

Congressman Roy, appreciate you being with us, sir. Thank you.

[Buck Sexton]

Thanks guys.

[Clay Travis]

We'll break down a little bit more of that. We come back. We'll take more of your talk backs as well. But I want to tell you, Tunnel to Towers does incredible work. I was down at the West Palm Beach Trump Golf Course a couple of weeks ago. They raised millions of dollars there. I know they're going to be having a big event at Bedminster, another event here in Nashville. I'm going to be on the road for some of those. May not be able to play, but I was up at Liberty national raising millions of dollars for them. And the work that they do is truly inspiring because they help take care of heroes like firefighter James Dickman. Passionate about fire safety, aspired to do everything in his power to keep his community and fellow firefighters safe. While responding to an apartment fire, James and his crew tried to save the people thought to be trapped inside. And when the situation escalated and the fire got worse, James was not able to escape. He died in the blazing inferno there. Cause of the fire arson. James leaves behind his loving wife Jamie and their children Paige and Grant. Tunnel of the Towers gave the Dickman family the gift of a mortgage free home. And Jamie, his wife, is grateful to Tunnel the Towers and to caring friends like you for lifting the financial burden of a mortgage off her shoulders. Donate 11amonth right now to tunnel the towers at t2t.org that's t the number 2t.org news you can count on and some laughs too.

[David Zweig]

Clay, Travis and Buck Sexton.

[Clay Travis]

Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Zweig]

Jesse Kelly Tears it up weeknight 6.

[Buck Sexton]

To 9 on 710 W O R.

[David Zweig]

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[Buck Sexton]

To serious health risks like blood clots.

[Clay Travis]

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