California in Chaos & Democrats side with the Rioters plus "Maryland Man" Indicted for Human Trafficking & Biden's Autopen Investigation

Summary

Verdict with Ted Cruz: Detailed Episode Summary

Title: California in Chaos & Democrats Side with the Rioters plus "Maryland Man" Indicted for Human Trafficking & Biden's Autopen Investigation
Release Date: June 9, 2025
Host: Senator Ted Cruz
Co-Host: Ben Ferguson
Produced by: Premiere Networks

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1. California in Chaos and Democratic Support for Rioters

The episode kicks off with co-host Ben Ferguson highlighting the escalating turmoil in California. He paints a vivid picture of riots, vehicles set ablaze, and protesters brandishing foreign flags, notably Mexican ones, while clashing with law enforcement. Ferguson emphasizes the startling alignment of Democratic politicians who appear to side with the rioters, undermining law enforcement efforts.

Ben Ferguson [00:12]: "We're seeing riots, we're seeing cars lit on fire. We're seeing protesters waving Mexican flags... the Democrats, we're with the rioters. That's the side we're on."

Ferguson further criticizes Democrats for their stance on illegal immigration, illustrating his point with the case of an illegal alien brought to America to face human trafficking charges. He argues this situation epitomizes the current Democratic Party's priorities and sympathies.

Ben Ferguson [00:12]: "This is, this is an amazing illustration of exactly where today's Democrat Party stands."

2. Media Coverage: Fox News vs. CNN

The discussion transitions to media portrayal of the riots. Ferguson contrasts Fox News' direct coverage of the unrest with CNN's seemingly downplayed narrative. He accuses CNN of portraying the situation as peaceful despite evident signs of chaos, such as fires and destruction.

Ben Ferguson [07:49]: "I want to contrast that with CNN... their message is nothing to see here. This is peaceful. This is fine."

The hosts critique CNN's attempt to minimize the severity of the riots, likening it to previous instances where violent protests were labeled as "fiery but peaceful."

Ben Ferguson [08:10]: "They have a message... fiery but peaceful protest."

3. Democratic Leadership and Response

Ferguson and Cruz delve into the lack of substantial condemnation from Democratic leaders regarding the riots. They cite figures such as Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass, California Governor Gavin Newsom, and Congressman Adam Schiff, accusing them of either insufficiently addressing the unrest or actively undermining law enforcement efforts.

Ben Ferguson [05:55]: "California Governor Adam Schiff... Eric Swalwell... Nancy Pelosi... where are you?"

Lydia, a guest, underscores the Democrats' failure to decry the destruction, instead focusing criticism on ICE officials.

Lydia [05:52]: "Their outrage is the opposite. It's over the ICE officials who are out there."

The hosts argue that Democratic officials are either encouraging the resistance or failing to protect communities, further exacerbating the chaos.

Ben Ferguson [06:22]: "I fully expect the evidence that comes out in this trial to be nothing short of horrifying."

4. The Maryland Man Indicted for Human Trafficking

Shifting focus, Ferguson presents a case study of a Maryland man indicted for human trafficking. He details the indictment, explaining that Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia, associated with the MS-13 gang, was involved in smuggling thousands of undocumented immigrants into the United States over nine years.

Ben Ferguson [21:45]: "He has been indicted for human trafficking... from Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Ecuador... passing through Mexico before crossing into Texas."

Cruz expresses skepticism about media portrayal, questioning how such a case was previously downplayed.

Ted Cruz [25:00]: "You think the media's gonna apologize for any of their stories... he's a Maryland dad."

Ferguson criticizes Democratic responses, highlighting hypocrisy in their previous demands to bring the man back, only for him to be prosecuted for serious crimes upon return.

Ben Ferguson [26:13]: "Democrats actually are putting this man in jail."

5. Biden's Autopen Investigation

The final major topic of discussion revolves around President Joe Biden's use of an auto pen (autopen) to sign significant documents such as legislation and pardons without his direct intervention. Ferguson explicates the constitutional debates surrounding this practice, emphasizing the potential legal ramifications and the questions it raises about Biden's awareness and authorization.

Ben Ferguson [33:29]: "Now, let's talk about pardons first... all of the rest were auto penned."

Cruz and Ferguson reference former President Donald Trump's criticisms of the autopen, arguing that it undermines the legitimacy of presidential actions.

Donald Trump [29:20]: "It's a very bad thing. Very dangerous... It's very disrespectful to people when they get an auto pen signature outside."

Ferguson breaks down the constitutional aspects, noting that while the Constitution doesn't specify the form a pardon must take, the validity hinges on whether the President directed its issuance.

Ben Ferguson [35:16]: "The President may sign a bill... by directing a subordinate to affix the President's signature to it, for example, by auto pen."

The hosts express concerns over potential abuses, suggesting that without Biden's personal approval, autopen-signed documents might be legally challenged and declared void.

Ben Ferguson [36:33]: "They would have to bring evidence he didn't know about it."

6. Conclusion

In wrapping up the episode, Cruz reiterates the gravity of the discussed issues, urging listeners to stay informed and engaged. He emphasizes the importance of holding leaders accountable, especially concerning the use of autopen and the protection of law enforcement.

Ted Cruz [44:32]: "This is an iHeart podcast."

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Notable Quotes:

• Ben Ferguson [00:12]: "California has descended into chaos... Democrats are with the rioters."
• Lydia [05:52]: "Their outrage is the opposite. It's over the ICE officials who are out there."
• Donald Trump [29:20]: "It's a very bad thing. Very dangerous... It's very disrespectful to people when they get an auto pen signature outside."
• Ben Ferguson [35:16]: "The President may sign a bill... by directing a subordinate to affix the President's signature to it, for example, by auto pen."

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This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz provides a critical examination of current political dynamics, highlighting perceived Democratic failings in handling civil unrest, their stance on immigration and law enforcement, as well as raising pivotal questions about presidential authority and integrity in the signing of official documents. The hosts advocate for accountability and transparency, urging listeners to recognize and respond to these pressing issues.

Transcript

[Ted Cruz]

This is an iHeart podcast. Welcome. It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you and Senator, we've got one packed show for people today.

[Ben Ferguson]

Well, once again, California has descended into chaos. We're seeing riots, we're seeing cars lit on fire. We're seeing protesters waving Mexican flags, waving flags of other countries and defying assaulting law enforcement. And amazingly, we're seeing a parade of Democrats all lining up to say, we the Democrats, we're with the rioters. That's the side we're on. Likewise, if you think about the illegal alien that we saw, a parade of Democrats going down to El Salvador saying we're on your side as well. Well, that particular illegal alien has been brought to America to be tried for human trafficking. This is, this is an amazing illustration of exactly where today's Democrat Party stands. And finally, we're gonna talk about Joe Biden's use of the auto pen. Use of the auto pen to sign legislation, use of the auto pen to issue pardons. What does that mean legally? What's the consequence of it? And what does it mean that President Trump says he's gonna investigate it? What happens next?

[Ted Cruz]

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[Ben Ferguson]

Well, look, it's tragic. It's tragic. The chaos, the violence that seems more and more commonplace in California, that seems more and more to be the face of today's Democrat Party. I want you just to watch and see what is unfolding right now in California, in Los Angeles. And this is who today's left is.

[Lydia]

Turning now to a FOX News alert. Anti ICE protesters are still rioting in Los Angeles county and setting a car on fire. You're looking at live pictures in Paramount, California right now in the last hour. Border czar Tom Homan told us they were sending in the National Guard to, to California. You know, Lydia, the damage is just striking here that we're seeing. We also have seen reports there's a Fox Los Angeles reporter who's just there on scene trying to cover this story. He said his car was destroyed by protesters. You know, let's hope that no one is hurt and no one is injured and it doesn't escalate from here. Look at the flag yet, guy.

[Ted Cruz]

There it is. Mexican flag.

[Lydia]

Can, you know, you know, this is, this is criminal activity that I hope people are held accountable for. And I'm talking about the riots right here. Where are the cops? Yeah, where are they? We heard earlier that Karen Bass, the mayor of la, an allegation that she had prevented the LAPD from responding yesterday when he was her first developing guy for upwards of two hours or more. To your point, where are the police?

[Ted Cruz]

Well, the officials in this part of the country, in Los Angeles and California are too busy tripping over themselves to attack Donald Trump and, and law enforcement, I guess those are the cops back there to actually condemn these people doing these things. And in the intro, Alicia, you said these are anti ICE protesters. Yes, but if you just squint, it could easily be the BLM protesters or the Free Palestine protesters or the Resist DOGE protesters or the Resist ICE in this case protesters. It is this dirtbag coalition of leftist, violent so called protest that has been a huge problem in this country for, for years and they are escalating.

[Lydia]

Yeah, you don't see Democrats coming out with any sort of outrage over the destruction here. Their outrage is the opposite. It's over the ICE officials who are out there.

[Ben Ferguson]

Let me give you five names where.

[Ted Cruz]

We'Re not hearing a lot from right.

[Ben Ferguson]

Now, except to attack these ICE officials which is leading to attacks like this.

[Ted Cruz]

Karen Bass, Los Angeles Mayor Gavin Newsom.

[Ben Ferguson]

California Governor Adam Schiff, who's awfully active on X and social media condemning to guys point, Donald Trump, not hearing anything from him. Eric Swalwell as well. You can't get away from this guy on social media attacking Trump.

[Ted Cruz]

Nancy Pelosi, the former House speaker, where are you? This is war right now that we're.

[Ben Ferguson]

Seeing in terms of our federal agents being attacked and California officials doing nothing to stop it.

[Lydia]

Now it's an, it's going to be an incredibly bad look in the next 24 to 48 hours if you don't get the governor out there, if you don't get someone out there to at least get people to stop. Because right now you have city leaders encouraging people to join the resistance.

[Ted Cruz]

You have city leaders, let's just pick it up there, encouraging people to go out there and do this. You watch that video, there are a lot of Mexican flags. So I'm just trying to get my head around this.

[Ben Ferguson]

So Ben, I have an idea. Let's you and me, let's go illegally to France. Let's just break into France once we get there. Let's start rioting against France because we hate France. Let's light the Eiffel Tower on fire. Let's start waving the American flag around while we're lighting the Eiffel Tower on fire. And let's say don't you dare send us back to America the flag we're flying. Because you have no right to decide if we get to come into your country illegally. We can do anything you want. And if you try to enforce your laws, I guess we'll just light things on fire. And even better, your elected officials would say, damn right, you keep burning and.

[Ted Cruz]

We'Ll send you more.

[Ben Ferguson]

This is truly through the twilight zone and what is striking. All right, let's break down several pieces of it. First of all, let's Take the media. So we saw Fox News where they actually covered what's going on.

[Ted Cruz]

Yes.

[Ben Ferguson]

I want to contrast that with cnn, because cnn, look, if you're a propaganda outlet, you've got a message to get out. And you know what the message is nothing to see here. This is peaceful. This is fine.

[Ted Cruz]

I mean, they are famous for the police station being on fire, remember, in the summer of rage.

[Ben Ferguson]

And they're like, it's fiery, but peaceful.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah, fiery but peaceful protest here.

[Ben Ferguson]

So. All right, I want you to watch CNN covering this same riot watch.

[Lydia]

So there's unrest. Let's start with. There's protest, lawful protests, which is allowed in this country. There is some unrest generally dealt with by local law enforcement. And that there needs to be state support through state police and sometimes even National Guard under a governor's authority. What is happening tonight is. Is unprecedented.

[Ted Cruz]

I mean, I love that she's like, it's unrest. Oh, I can't say that. Hold on, I got to back that up. This is just peaceful, and that is something that is protected. And we're totally fine with this.

[Ben Ferguson]

Like, she admitted unrest and immediately had to run away from it.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

And I gotta say, it's striking also the video that they don't show anything on fire there. They've learned the lesson where during. During the Antifa and Black Lives Matter riots where they literally put on, if you don't remember this, they had a video of an entire store on fire.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

And their chyron said, fiery but peaceful protest.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah. As buildings are burning.

[Ben Ferguson]

It is. They've got a message. And look in the first video on Fox where the folks are talking. They say, where are the cops? And you see way up at the top, a block away, and yet there are no police officers anywhere near the protesters. No police officers anywhere near the car that's on fire. And it's clear.

[Ted Cruz]

It goes back to leadership. That's the question I want to ask you. You look at this, you're allowing it.

[Ben Ferguson]

Mayor ordered them to stay away.

[Ted Cruz]

Okay, So I want to be. That was the question I want to ask you.

[Ben Ferguson]

Of course, of course, of course. But here you're in. My friend Dana Bash, she's got to jump in now and really defend what's going on here. Here, give a listen.

[Ted Cruz]

It's pretty bad.

[Lydia]

That's a different question. But I just wanted to state for the record that what did happen in 1992 was so different from what we're seeing now. I mean, that was. That was a. A real. A real riot that went all across the city of Los Angeles after a verdict in the Rodney King case. This is a situation where the l. A County, L.A. county Police. It's not good, but they're saying that they have it under control. And the. And the president is sending national troops.

[Ted Cruz]

In a way that we can look at.

[Lydia]

Hasn't been done in a long time.

[Ted Cruz]

Obviously, see that it is not under control. It's not under control. You and I both see that it's not under control. And a riot is a riot. They're throwing. They're throwing all types of objects at law enforcement. And the president is absolutely right, by the way. Ask the people whose cars and buildings are on fire if this is a riot or not.

[Ben Ferguson]

No, no, no. Dana told us it's not a real riot.

[Ted Cruz]

It's not real.

[Ben Ferguson]

It's fake one. It's a fake. You know, they are familiar with fakes at cnn. They are experts in fakes. You know, it really is striking. This is nothing to see here. Not a real riot. It's all okay. And then she says, well, okay, it's not good, but it's nothing like a.

[Ted Cruz]

Real riot back in the old days of the 90s.

[Ben Ferguson]

And look, there have been multiple arrests because you have. These protesters are actively aggressively trying to stop ICE from carrying out their jobs, from enforcing immigration laws. One of the people arrested was the president of the SEIU union.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

Who was arrested for physically actively stopping federal agents from carrying out their jobs. Now, what is the reaction of Democrat politicians? Well, here, take a look.

[Lydia]

The reality is we see peaceful protests launching in Los Angeles. And again, any violence against police officers should not be accepted. Local authorities can handle that. But remember, a lot of these peaceful protests are being generated because the President of the United States is sowing chaos and confusion by arresting people who are showing up for their immigration hearings.

[Ted Cruz]

They love the word peaceful, don't they?

[Ben Ferguson]

So the phrase peaceful protest, which they say repeatedly, and notice that. So that was Cory Booker, and he's saying, well, look, you can't commit violence against cops. Look, I'm glad he says that in part because they've seen where these riots go. But at the same time, he's repeatedly saying what CNN is saying, which is it's only the governor and local law enforcement that can do it. Nothing federal, because President Trump has called up the National Guard. And they are so unhappy that we're actually going to see these violent protesters will be stopped from terrorizing the communities they're engaged with. And that's a nightmare scenario for the Democrats because anytime you have violence like this. They are on the side of the violence.

[Ted Cruz]

Do you notice Booker also said the beginnings. We've talked about how orchestrated Democrats are when they do these things on college campuses where there's people behind him in advocacy. Booker said this is.

[Ben Ferguson]

So you're suggesting the people who are paying for this are also paying for the Democrats who are going on TV defending it.

[Ted Cruz]

I'm saying Cory Booker seems to have some pretty good insider information that this is the, quote, beginning his words, not mine, of something big like, this is the beginning. And he said that on Sunday morning, after a weekend of this violence. The beginning. So you gotta ask the question, are they all in on it?

[Ben Ferguson]

Well, look, you know, you look at so much of today's Democrat Party that's paid for by George Soros, it kind of makes you wonder if it's now George Zorro, and it is all about go back and. And they want California to secede from America and go back to Mexico. But. But look, Cory Booker was not. Not alone. Give another listen.

[Lydia]

Every single ICE agent who's engaged in this aggressive overreach and are trying to hide their identities from the American people will be unsuccessful in doing that. This is America. This is not the Soviet Union. We're not behind the Iron Curtain. This is not the 1930s. And every single one of them, no matter what it takes, no matter how long it takes, will of course, be identified.

[Ted Cruz]

I have a dad who's spent the majority of his life in law enforcement. That is a threat to law enforcement. That we're going to make sure that everyone that hates you knows who you are, where you live, who your kids may be, who your wife is, and. And we're gonna make you feel unsafe for doing your job.

[Ben Ferguson]

Look, that is grotesque. It's one of the most grotesque things I've ever seen. That's Hakeem Jeffries, the Democrat leader in the House of Representatives. And he's not hiding what he's saying. He is threatening to dox, to expose, to reveal the identities of federal law enforcement agents. Ice. Because he wants threats, he wants violence, he wants intimidation. He wants violence and intimidation directed at federal law enforcement. That is grotesque. By the way, the mayor of Boston analogized ICE to Nazis. Yeah, I mean, that is. Understand today's Democrat Party, this is not your grandfather's Democratic Party. This is a Democrat Party. Now, if you are an illegal alien, if you are a gang member, if you are a murderer, if you are a rapist, the Democrats stand with you. If you're a police officer, the Democrats are not with you, if you are an ICE agent, they are not with you. If you're a Border Patrol agent, they. They are not with you. If you are enforcing the law, they are not with you. And listen to what Cory Booker said. Cory Booker said, well, Trump is causing it because he's enforcing the law.

[Ted Cruz]

Because. Yeah, because enforcing the law it is. Well, and then you gotta look at Newsom. I mean, look at Newsom. We had this very interesting rebranding. I would call it Newsom, maybe 3.0, 4.0. He's rebranded himself a lot. He's really good at it.

[Ben Ferguson]

He's pretending to be a moderate. He suddenly discovered that boys and girls exist.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

And it's really remarkable because, you know, 12 seconds ago, he didn't know that.

[Ted Cruz]

And yet here's his true colors yet again.

[Ben Ferguson]

So here's what he tweeted out. He says the federal government is taking over the California national guard and deploying 2,000 soldiers in Los Angeles, not because there's a shortage of law enforcement, but because they want a spectacle. Don't give them one. Never use violence. Speak out peacefully. So understand the end of that. Speak out peacefully. He's calling for. I'm the governor. I want more riots. Yeah, there are not enough of you out there. More, more, more. Somebody get Soros on line two. George, we need more money. Can you send out more protests now? That is his message. And they are furious, furious with President Trump for actually defending the communities. Look, we saw in that first video, the law enforcement, the police officers are ordered. Don't do anything about it. Don't keep people safe. We've seen, by the way, we've seen this video before. We saw it during the Antifa and Black Lives Matter riots where, again, Democrat mayors, Democrat governors prevented law enforcement from doing their jobs. And by the way, look.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, and the word is on the street that local, I mean, local law enforcement were told on Saturday and Friday night, stand down, don't get involved, let them do what they're going to do. If that turns out to be like, the entire policy of LA and the local government there, doesn't that give even more credence to why Donald Trump should send in the National Guard?

[Ben Ferguson]

Absolutely. And look, I will give the Democrats credit for being the voice of reason, the voice of moderation. I want you to listen to this very careful, calm, measured analysis from a Democrat California congresswoman. She's assessing the situation carefully. She's trying to balance competing interests, trying.

[Ted Cruz]

To protect property and lives, and give.

[Ben Ferguson]

A listen to what she has to say.

[Lydia]

ICE get the out of LA so that order can't be restored.

[Ted Cruz]

There it is. If ICE would just leave and all the illegal immigrants can do what they want to do. And we've had no crime problems in California in the last year or so.

[Ben Ferguson]

So understand their message. Also, they do not want federal immigration laws enforced. She wants ICE out of the state. And by the way, to be clear, her message also, every illegal alien in America, please come to California.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

Because that's who she represents. That is. And I don't even know that Congresswoman. She's one of the many left wings.

[Ted Cruz]

There's a lot of them from California.

[Ben Ferguson]

They blur together. You know, she has, look, I give her credit. Apparently she's volunteering to join AOC and Ilhan Omar and the other kooks to be the face of today's Democrat Party. This is sad.

[Ted Cruz]

Final question on this. You look at the President's decision to send the National Guard and you look at Democrats now clearly wanting a fight. They're wanting more illegals to come out. Is this one of those things where they think this is a positive nationwide? I mean, how could you think that burning down cities, attacking your neighbor's property, burning cars and attacking law enforcement is somehow a political win? I don't understand that.

[Ben Ferguson]

While you're riding a motorcycle around a burning car waving a Mexican flag.

[Ted Cruz]

Bingo.

[Ben Ferguson]

Look, at the end of the day, apparently those individuals, and we saw Mexican flags everywhere you look. Apparently those individuals, they want America to be Mexico. What else do you. And by the way, look, Mexico is a beautiful country. If you want to go to Mexico, go to Mexico.

[Ted Cruz]

If you want to fly the flag, go to Mexico.

[Ben Ferguson]

But you don't have a right to defy federal law, to come here illegally. And yet that is, at the end of the day, that is what today's Democrat Party stands for. It is their core belief. It is their reason for being. And you asked if they think this is a winning message. Well, it depends who you're talking to. If you're talking to your radicals, if you're talking to your zealots, if you're.

[Ted Cruz]

Talking to the people that fund this stuff.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah. If you're talking to the big money donors, yes, that's a winning message. If you're talking to the people who wrote checks on the anti Israel and anti America protests on college campuses, it's a great message. If you're actually talking to ordinary Americans, if you're talking to soccer moms, if you're talking to people who would like their kids safe, if you're talking to people who don't really want to see their neighborhoods lit on fire. I question, as Brer Rabbit said, throw me in that briar patch. Well, you know, I question if they're going to be happy with this decision come next election day.

[Ted Cruz]

Which brings me to story number two, and it's one that is just maybe one of the. I laughed when I saw the news. I thought this was a brilliant move by the Trump administration. Democrats have been obsessed with the Maryland father, the Maryland man who just happened to get deported, who was an illegal immigrant who was caught human smuggling through my home state of Tennessee. And they act like it never happened. And now all of a sudden, we're like, they were demanding you bring him home, bring him back to America. Well, guess what? The dude's coming home.

[Ben Ferguson]

He is indeed. And he has been brought to be prosecuted. He has been indicted. He has been indicted for human trafficking.

[Ted Cruz]

Wait, I thought he was just a Maryland dad, not a human trafficker.

[Ben Ferguson]

Well, I will tell you, I am holding the indictment in my hand, and it is stunning. So how long was he a human trafficker? Well, according to the indictment, from in or around 2016 through in or around 2025. So for nine years, that's a pretty good career. Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia and others known and unknown to the grand jury conspired to bring undocumented aliens to the United States from countries such as Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Ecuador, and elsewhere, ultimately passing through Mexico before crossing into Texas. Very nice. They came into Texas. The co conspirators knew the undocumented aliens did not possess authorization to enter the United States. They used cell phones, they used social media applications. The indictment also alleges Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia was a citizen of El Salvador, was not a United States citizen, was living in the United States, and was also a member of and associate of the Transnational Criminal Organization Mississippi. 13.

[Ted Cruz]

No. He's a dad. Hold on a second. You can't say that. This is just a Maryland dude. Maryland dad. Maryland man.

[Ben Ferguson]

And by the way, they accurately describe MS.13. MS.13 was a criminal enterprise engaged in, among other activities, acts and threats involving murder, extortion, narcotics trafficking, firearms trafficking, alien smuggling, and money laundering. MS.13 operated throughout north and Central America, including in El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico, the United States, including in Texas, Maryland, New York, Tennessee and elsewhere. Now, how many illegal aliens do you. Do you think he's charged with smuggling?

[Ted Cruz]

I'm assuming zero because he's just a Maryland man. He's just a Maryland dad.

[Ben Ferguson]

He's a Maryland dad. I want to read this paragraph. Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia, as detailed further below, used his status in MS.13 to further his criminal activity.

[Ted Cruz]

Right. Not his status as a father or dad as a MS.13 gang member.

[Ben Ferguson]

Over the course of the conspiracy, the co conspirators knowingly and unlawfully transported. Wait for it. Thousands of undocumented aliens, many of whom were Ms. 13 members and associates.

[Ted Cruz]

So you're bringing in people that are now a member of a terrorist organization into the country. So not just random people paying. He was smuggling in members of the terrorist organization in the United States of America for not one year, not two, not three, not four, not five years, but nine years.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yes. And look, the fact that DOJ brought this indictment means presumably they have the evidence to prove this indictment. They're gonna put on that evidence. They're gonna put on that evidence that this guy was a gang member for nine years, that he was part of a conspiracy that smuggled thousands of people illegally, including other gang members.

[Ted Cruz]

You think the media's gonna apologize for any of their stories who are attacking Trump and saying that he just sent a Maryland dad, a Maryland man.

[Ben Ferguson]

And understand this is the same illegal immigrant that my colleague, Chris Van Hollen, Democrat from Maryland, flew down and had really, what was a very sweet margarita with. I mean, it was a Bro man holding.

[Ted Cruz]

It was a moment. It was a bro moment.

[Ben Ferguson]

As I tweeted out at the time, find somebody who looks at you the way Democrats look at illegal alien ms.13 gang members. Yeah, like the sweet nothings in his eyes as he looked on. And by the way, you saw Democrat House members, you know, all on a parade to go down there.

[Ted Cruz]

They wanted to use your tax dollars to go see the Maryland man.

[Ben Ferguson]

This is the face of the Democrat Party. This is who they stand for. So, look, you ought to ask yourself at home, AM I an MS.13 gang member who's a human trafficker who smuggles in thousands of aliens who smuggles in gang members? If so, the Democrats are the party for me. If you're not. If you kind of think we don't want human traffickers and gang members in America, well, then I don't know what the Democrats have to do.

[Ted Cruz]

Is this like the ultimate FAFO like moment? Because for Democrats, and I want people to understand the funniest part of the story, Democrats demanded we bring him back. He's coming back, gonna go to jail for a long time. And then after he serves his time, apparently we're going to send him right back to the country where he just came from. Like it didn't just go from bad to worse. Like he would have been better off just staying where he was. Look, Democrats actually are putting this man in jail.

[Ben Ferguson]

And these facts, the facts that prove he was a human trafficker, the facts and evidence that DOJ is going to put on, I hope and believe the American people need to know those facts because they need to know, look, we've already in this podcast cover how the guy is allegedly a wife beater, that he has a long history of criminality. We played the audio of him being caught human trafficking, but at the time we didn't know that there was a decade worth of thousands of people being trafficked, including other gang members.

[Ted Cruz]

Count for what you wish for, right?

[Ben Ferguson]

And by the way, to understand, look, I don't know specifically what this gang member did, but I'll tell you, Ms. 13, when they are human trafficking, they are raping women, they are raping children, they are abusing women and children, that they are abusing little boys, little girls.

[Ted Cruz]

They'Re soulless, they do not care about human life or using human life.

[Ben Ferguson]

Ms. 13 is evil. And in Texas, we see the atrocities they carry out. I fully expect the evidence that comes out in this trial to be nothing short of horrifying. And I gotta say, if you're a Democrat and you've decided the entire future of your party is defending this guy.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

You know what's weird, Ben? I'm not sure the Democrats are worried right now.

[Ted Cruz]

I don't think they are.

[Ben Ferguson]

I mean, that's the strangest thing is in the face of this, there used.

[Ted Cruz]

To be in politics moments where you knew you screwed up, where even your party, they're all in on California and.

[Ben Ferguson]

Still on defending this guy, Their position is that one Democrat congresswoman said law enforcement get the F out. That's their message. No cops, no ice, no border patrol. We don't defend. We don't defend California, we don't arrest America. But gang members and murderers. You're a peeps.

[Ted Cruz]

Amazing. I wanna move to one final issue and it's one that has gotten a lot of attention in conservative circles. It's certainly one that the media just refuses to talk about. And the president clearly wanted to use the power this week of his microphone to bring up the issue of the auto pin. When it comes to Joe Biden investigating, what did he know? When did he know it? Did he have any clue what he was signing with the auto pin? Was he even directing the auto pin to be used? Or were There people that were literally playing president.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yep.

[Ted Cruz]

That were saying, I want to hook this political favor up or this pardon up or this piece of legislation or this executive order up. And he had no idea it was even happening.

[Ben Ferguson]

Well. And President Trump did a really good job explaining this in the Oval Office this past week. Give a listen.

[Lydia]

Predecessor dismissed your auto pen investigation. He said he made all the decisions during his presidency.

[Ben Ferguson]

I'm curious your reaction to his dismissal.

[Donald Trump]

Well, look, the auto pen, I think, is the big scandal outside of the rigged election of 2020. I think the biggest scandal of the last many years is the auto pen and who's using it. I happen to think I know. Okay. Because I'm here, here. And I'm not a big auto pen person, fortunately. I'm glad. I'm very glad. It's an easy way out, but it's. It's a very bad thing. Very dangerous. You know, I sign important documents. Usually when they put documents in front of you, they're important. Even if you're signing ambassadorships or I consider that important. I think it's inappropriate. You have somebody that's devoting four years of their life or more to being an ambassador. I think you really deserve. That person deserves to get a real signature, not an auto pen signature. And I can tell auto pen easily. I can look at it like two little pinholes from pulling the paper. Right. You always see the pinholes. It's real easy to tell about auto pen. I think it's very disrespectful to people when they get an auto pen signature outside. Auto pen, to me, are used when thousands of letters come in from young people all over the country and you want to get them back. And, you know, people use auto pens for that, to send a little signature at the bottom of a letter. We have thousands of them. We get thousands of letters a week, and it's not possible to, you know, do. I'd like to do it myself, but you can't do it to me. That's where auto pens start and stop. But I don't think. I don't. I'm sure that he didn't know many of the things. Look, he was never for open borders. He was never for transgender, for everybody. He was never for men playing in women's sports. I mean, he changed. I mean, all of these things that changed so radically. I don't think he had any idea that what was. Frankly, I said it during the debate, and I say it now. He didn't have much of an idea what was going on.

[Ted Cruz]

Mr. President, he shouldn't be.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, essentially, whoever used the auto pan was the President. And that is wrong. It's illegal. It's so bad, and it's so disrespectful.

[Ted Cruz]

And I look at what he said there, and I go back to something that is. You've seen auto pin? Do you have the auto pin? I've never asked you that.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ted Cruz]

Okay. So I've gone to an office before to get a birthday card or something done when I worked in dc, People would come over and say, hey, can we get this written? It's somebody's 70th anniversary, our 70th birthday. And they'll go, yeah, sure. And they'll put it together and they'll get it auto pin signed, because there's so many requests like this. But he's right. Being the President of the United States of America, there's a lot of. If it's being put in front of you, it probably deserves a signature, if it's making it to be in front of you.

[Ben Ferguson]

Well, let's draw a distinction. First of all, let me explain what an auto pen is. It's a machine where literally you have a mechanical arm that holds a pen, typically a Sharpie. Most signatures are used with Sharpies. And so I've got an auto pen, as far as I know. I think every member of Congress has a piece.

[Ted Cruz]

So my birthday card, you're telling me, was not really you signing that?

[Ben Ferguson]

No, no. When I made fun of you, that was definitely written by. But you use it for correspondence. I mean, in my time in the Senate, I've literally gotten millions of letters from constituents, and we send out millions of letters in response. And so you could spend literally every waking moment doing nothing but signing that correspondence. And so what you do instead, every congressional office has a correspondence office where for a given topic, if you ask me about illegal immigration, we have a letter in the office that lays out your plans, my views on illegal immigration, and the policy team helps draft those, and they get approved. You know, I suspect we'll have a letter shortly on these LA riots and what's happening there, whatever the topics are that people are writing in on. A congressional office will prepare a letter that's responsive to it, and those will get auto pinned. That is very different from something that requires a signature to have legal effect. And they're really.

[Ted Cruz]

That's a great distinction way of describing it.

[Ben Ferguson]

There are three categories that are consequential here. Pardons, executive orders, and laws. And let me break all three of these down, because there's real legal significance in the question that President Trump is raising. All right, first of all, pardons. There are a whole bunch of folks that Joe Biden pardoned.

[Ted Cruz]

Controversial pardons, by the way.

[Ben Ferguson]

So including. So on the same day Joe Biden pardoned Anthony Fauci, he pardoned General Milley, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and then he pardoned every member of the January 6th commission. So he pardoned Bennie Thompson and Liz Cheney and Zoe Lofgram and Adam Schiff and Pete Aguilar, Stephanie Murphy and Jamie Raskin and Elaine Lauria and Adam Kinzinger.

[Ted Cruz]

And by the way, they were begging for these pardons.

[Ben Ferguson]

All nine of them got pardoned. It's being reported now that the one pardon that Biden signed personally was his son Hunter Biden's pardon, but that all of the rest of these pardons were auto penned. And here's what President Trump tweeted out. He said, quote, the pardons that Sleepy Joe gave to the Unselect Committee of Political Thugs and many others I gotta say, I love. Nobody writes like Donald Trump.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

Are hereby declared void, vacant, and of no further force or effect because of the fact that they were done by auto pen. In other words, Joe Biden did not sign them, but more importantly, he did not know anything about them. The necessary pardoning documents were not explained to or approved by Biden. Now, let's talk about pardons first. So pardons do not have to be in writing.

[Ted Cruz]

Okay.

[Ben Ferguson]

If you look at the language of the Constitution, Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1 says in relevant part, the President shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States. So the Constitution does not specify any particular form of a pardon. It doesn't specify. It has to be in writing. It simply says the President shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons. So with respect to pardons, whether it's signed or not, that's not a constitutional requirement. But what is a constitutional requirement is that the President grant it.

[Ted Cruz]

Interesting.

[Ben Ferguson]

And so what President Trump alleged is Biden didn't know about this, didn't know what he was doing. It was not his decision. I think it is entirely possible that we will see the Department of Justice prosecute someone who has received one of these auto pen pardons. Really, if they prosecute someone, it's going to be someone for whom there is clear evidence of a federal criminal violation. But also it will be someone who there is evidence that Biden didn't know about it.

[Ted Cruz]

So they would have to Bring. To do that, they would have to bring evidence he didn't know about it. And then does that kick off the big grand debate and the investigation? Because you bring those charges to say, okay, let's see if you can prove that he did know about it.

[Ben Ferguson]

So look, if DOJ brought an indictment against someone that Biden had pardoned using an auto pan, the defense lawyer would almost immediately seek to get the indictment dismissed because there's. Because of the pardon.

[Ted Cruz]

Sure.

[Ben Ferguson]

And I would expect the court to litigate. The DOJ would argue this is not a valid pardon because it was not issued by the President. It was issued by a staffer manning the auto panner. And the question would be, did Joe Biden approve and authorize it personally, or was this just the staff?

[Ted Cruz]

They just said, hey, give my buddy or friend or our colleague or ally this.

[Ben Ferguson]

So, for example, they would look to. All right, did Biden make public statements about it? Was he interviewed? Did he stand at a podium? What did he say? Because that would go to, was he aware of it and did he approve it? Now let's focus on statutes. Can the President sign a law and have it become a federal law by auto pen and not by signature? And here, actually, the question is actually pretty similar to the pardon question. It comes down to what Biden knew. So actually, in 2005, the US Department of Justice, the Office of Legal Counsel, they issued a formal opinion whether the President may sign a bill by directing that his signature be affixed to it. And the summary of the conclusion was, the President need not personally perform the physical act of affixing his signature to a bill he approves and decides to sign in order for the bill to become law. Rather, the President may sign a bill within the meaning of Article 1, Section 7, by directing a subordinate to affix the President's signature to such bill, for example, by auto pen. And here the statutory language, or rather the constitutional language, is more explicit. So here's what Article 1, Section 7, says. Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the President of the United States. If he approves, he shall sign it. So sign it is explicitly there. You can't orally sign a law. You have to sign it.

[Ted Cruz]

But that's why bill signs are such a big deal.

[Ben Ferguson]

What the Department of Justice concluded, and this is a lengthy opinion, is the settled understanding of the meaning of sign. An individual can sign a document by directing that his signature be affixed to it by another. And so they conclude this settled understanding of the meaning of sign leads us to conclude that Article 1, Section 7, permits the President to sign a bill by directing a subordinate to affix the President's signature to it. Now, I've got to say, as a legal matter, I think there's a strong case to be made that that is accurate, that you can authorize someone to sign a binding legal document for you if you're the decision maker and you.

[Ted Cruz]

Say, hey, I'm on a plane is a great example, national emergency, worst case scenario. And you say, sign that right now to do what? X, Y, or Z?

[Ben Ferguson]

And let me give you an example I have personal experience with. So, as you know, when I came out of law school, I was a law clerk for Chief Justice William REHNQUIST on the U.S. supreme Court. And every time there is an execution in this country, almost without failing, there are emergency appeals that go to the Supreme Court. And they often will go and be concluded at midnight or one or two or three in the morning, because typically the death warrant is carried out right before midnight. And so the appeals are filed last minute. And so when that happens, there is a law clerk from every justice that remains at the court till the matter is resolved. And the Chief justice had jurisdiction over the D.C. circuit, but also the 4th Circuit, which covers a number of states that have capital punishment. And so when the execution occurs in the circuit that your justice is the lead for, the justices will vote. They do it by phone. So you will read the emergency appeals, you'll summarize the emergency appeals, you'll call your justice, wake him or her up, explain the issues, and then the justices will vote at the end of the process. The very last thing that happens in the process is there is a form that is sent to the prison. And there were multiple, essentially, death warrants that I signed, and I would sign them. Whr tc WHR was William Hub's Rehnquist. So I'm signing for the Chief Justice TC because the chief was home in bed, so he was not physically signing it, but because I had authorization to sign it. You'd literally put it on then a fax machine, and at the prison, they'd pull it off the fax machine. And that signature that I had signed for the Chief justice was sufficient to carry out an execution.

[Ted Cruz]

The TC at the end is that just to clarify that you did it on behalf? Yes. Okay.

[Ben Ferguson]

And you see that sometimes secretaries, when they sign for someone, will do the same thing and put the slash to say who is signing it. What I would say the critical Question in terms of a law. Look, there will be an argument that the word sign in the Constitution means sign. And so it's not a frivolous argument that the auto pen can't do it in any circumstance. And I would expect that potentially argument to be made. But the more powerful argument is, did the President, President direct that his signature.

[Ted Cruz]

Be affixed to it, or did a staffer go rogue?

[Ben Ferguson]

Did a staffer just say, yep, this is our policy, so put it in the autopad, it's signed. And listen, White Houses keep records. You've worked in a White House.

[Ted Cruz]

They keep meticulous records, especially on this level.

[Ben Ferguson]

And so I fully expect there to be litigation, questioning, looking for a statute where there is not clear indication that Biden was aware of it, that he made a decision to sign it, but rather that simply you had a White House staffer say, okay, this is our policy. Let's sign it. And if that's the case, I think there's. If the President did not direct that his signature be affixed to it, I think there's a real argument that is not a law that is not validly in the United States Code. That law is null and void. I think that. And by the way, it's not sufficient for the President at the outset to say, hey, I support this law. Okay, that's different from you can say you support all sorts of law.

[Ted Cruz]

Sure.

[Ben Ferguson]

That's different from making the decision, I am going to sign this law right now. Look, there are all sorts of laws that you can say you support, but the legislative process is like sausage making. You don't even know what's in the thing till it passes. And so finding early statements from Biden that I support such and such policy is not enough. I expect the question to be, and by the way, you don't have to wait for litigation, because Donald Trump has access to all of the White House records that will show did Biden make those decisions. That's why ordering that investigation is so strong, because if they find a law that there is no record of Joe Biden saying, I want to sign this and I am directing you to sign this, then I think there's a real argument that law is not validly enacted.

[Ted Cruz]

It's incredible. We're gonna keep covering it. Don't forget, we do the show Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Hit that subscriber auto download button so you do not miss an episode. Also, if you're watching this episode on YouTube, make sure you subscribe on YouTube as well as we put these out so you don't miss them either. And tell your family, tell your friends about this show and the center. And I will see you back here in a couple of days. This is an iHeart podcast.