Tariffs: Angels & Demons urging either a Massive-Free-Trade Victory or Perpetual Trade Barriers & Taxes

Summary

Verdict with Ted Cruz: Tariffs – Angels & Demons Urging Either a Massive Free-Trade Victory or Perpetual Trade Barriers & Taxes

Release Date: April 7, 2025
Hosts: Senator Ted Cruz and Ben Ferguson
Produced by: Premiere Networks

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1. Introduction

In this episode of "Verdict with Ted Cruz," hosts Senator Ted Cruz and Ben Ferguson delve into the contentious issue of tariffs imposed by President Donald Trump. They explore the immediate and long-term implications of these tariffs on the U.S. economy, international relations, and the political landscape. The discussion also addresses the surge in nationwide injunctions aimed at thwarting Trump's agenda, framing it as a modern form of lawfare.

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2. The Rationale Behind Trump's Tariffs

Senator Cruz emphasizes that President Trump's decision to implement tariffs stems from a perceived decline in American manufacturing over the past five decades. "We've seen what used to be the heart of the American middle class, the heart of blue-collar jobs going away, being pulled abroad," Cruz explains (02:53). The tariffs are portrayed as a strategic move to reverse this trend by incentivizing companies to bring manufacturing back to the United States.

Key Points:

• Economic Revival: The tariffs aim to rejuvenate the manufacturing sector and restore blue-collar jobs.
• Trade Deficit Concerns: Highlighting the significant trade deficit with countries like Vietnam, which absorbed manufacturing jobs relocated from China (09:55).

Notable Quote:

"We've seen a hollowing out of manufacturing in America... President Trump was elected to fight for bringing those jobs back."
— Ben Ferguson (02:53)

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3. White House Debate: Leverage vs. Permanent Tariffs

A central theme of the episode is the internal debate within the White House regarding the future of the tariffs. On one side, advisors advocate using tariffs as leverage to negotiate lower rates from trading partners. On the other, some argue for maintaining high tariffs indefinitely, potentially using them as a primary source of government revenue.

Key Points:

• Leverage Strategy: Using tariffs to secure better trade deals and reduce reciprocal tariffs from other nations.
• Permanent Tariffs: Proponents see tariffs as a lasting economic tool, albeit with significant drawbacks.

Notable Quotes:

"There are angels and demons on each of President Trump's shoulders urging him to use them as leverage or keep them forever."
— Ben Ferguson (03:00)

"If the outcome from these tariffs is really high tariffs from every country on earth... that is going to be really bad for Texas and really bad for America."
— Ben Ferguson (11:59)

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4. International Reactions and Opportunity for Deals

The episode highlights the immediate international response to the new tariffs, noting that over 50 countries, including Vietnam and Israel, are seeking negotiations to mitigate the economic fallout. This surge in interest presents a "historic opportunity" for the U.S. to secure favorable trade agreements that could stabilize the stock market and benefit American workers.

Key Points:

• Negotiation Momentum: Countries are eager to negotiate, providing the U.S. with significant leverage.
• Potential Deals: Successful negotiations could lead to reductions in tariffs, benefiting both American consumers and exporters.

Notable Quote:

"There is a historic opportunity here. And if the White House capitalizes on this opportunity, it could prove to be one of the most significant, one of the most powerful moments for US Economic interest for American workers this country has ever seen."
— Ryan Seacrest (08:31)

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5. Consequences of Maintaining High Tariffs

Senator Cruz warns of the potential negative repercussions if tariffs become permanent. These include increased costs for American consumers and businesses, exemplified by an auto manufacturer’s projection to raise car prices by $4,500 due to tariffs (14:29). Such outcomes could dampen economic growth and consumer spending, counteracting the intended benefits of the tariffs.

Key Points:

• Consumer Impact: Higher prices on goods, exemplified by the automotive industry.
• Economic Strain: Potential inflationary pressures and reduced competitiveness of American products abroad.

Notable Quote:

"If the outcome from these tariffs is... high tariffs... that is going to be really bad for Texas and really bad for America."
— Ben Ferguson (11:59)

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6. Nationwide Injunctions: Lawfare Against Trump

The discussion shifts to the unprecedented rise of nationwide injunctions targeting President Trump's policies. Senator Cruz describes this phenomenon as "lawfare," a strategic use of legal systems to undermine Trump's administration. He underscores the severity by comparing the current surge in injunctions to those issued during previous administrations, asserting that "there have been more nationwide injunctions in the last two months than in the entirety of the previous 20 years" (29:48).

Key Points:

• Judicial Overreach: The use of injunctions to halt executive actions without direct involvement in specific cases.
• Political Weaponization: Allegations that left-wing groups and judges are selectively targeting Trump’s policies to impede his agenda.

Notable Quotes:

"It's an absolute abuse of power. It is worse than it has ever been."
— Ben Ferguson (29:48)

"These judges are issuing nationwide orders trying to stop everything President Trump is trying to do."
— Ryan Seacrest (32:33)

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7. Strategies to Counteract Lawfare

Senator Cruz discusses potential remedies to address the misuse of nationwide injunctions. Legislative measures, such as the bill introduced by Chuck Grassley aiming to eliminate the power of district judges to issue such injunctions, are examined. However, Cruz remains pessimistic about its passage due to partisan hurdles. He also mentions impeachment as a long-shot strategy, given the improbability of Senate conviction without bipartisan support.

Key Points:

• Legislative Action: Proposed bills to restrict judicial overreach.
• Impeachment: Highlighted as a potential but unlikely avenue for removing obstructive judges.
• Public and Appellate Responses: Emphasizing the importance of public opinion and higher courts in countering judicial misuse.

Notable Quote:

"The remedy are, number one, the court of public opinion, making people understand just what an abuse of power this is. And number two, the appellate process, the courts of appeals and ultimately the Supreme Court."
— Ryan Seacrest (37:55)

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8. National Security Concerns: The China Factor

Senator Cruz elaborates on the broader national security implications of economic dependencies, particularly focusing on China. He argues that China's control over critical supply chains and essential minerals poses a significant geopolitical threat. The COVID-19 pandemic is cited as a stark example of how reliance on Chinese manufacturing can jeopardize American public health and safety.

Key Points:

• Supply Chain Vulnerability: Dependence on China for essential goods and materials.
• Geopolitical Threat: China's strategic maneuvers against U.S. interests underscore the need for economic independence.

Notable Quotes:

"China is fighting a thousand-year war against the United States... China is the single greatest geopolitical threat America is facing for the next hundred years."
— Senator Ted Cruz (27:37)

"We need to move all of that out of China. We need to be able to stand on our own."
— Senator Ted Cruz (28:49)

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9. Conclusion: The Path Forward

The episode concludes with a call to action for leveraging the current international interest in negotiating tariffs to secure advantageous deals for the U.S. economy. Senator Cruz underscores the importance of decisive leadership to navigate these complex trade dynamics and counteract the legal challenges impeding Trump’s policies.

Key Takeaways:

• Strategic Negotiations: Utilize global desperation to negotiate fairer trade terms.
• Judicial Reforms: Address the surge in nationwide injunctions to protect executive authority.
• Economic Independence: Continue efforts to reduce reliance on China for critical industries and supply chains.

Final Notable Quote:

"Everything we can do to delink from China is a good thing... We just need to make sure we're competing fairly."
— Senator Ted Cruz (27:13)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben Ferguson (02:53):
  "We've seen a hollowing out of manufacturing in America... President Trump was elected to fight for bringing those jobs back."

• Ryan Seacrest (08:31):
  "There is a historic opportunity here. And if the White House capitalizes on this opportunity, it could prove to be one of the most significant, one of the most powerful moments for US Economic interest for American workers this country has ever seen."

• Ben Ferguson (11:59):
  "If the outcome from these tariffs is really high tariffs from every country on earth... that is going to be really bad for Texas and really bad for America."

• Ben Ferguson (29:48):
  "It's an absolute abuse of power. It is worse than it has ever been."

• Ryan Seacrest (37:55):
  "The remedy are, number one, the court of public opinion... And number two, the appellate process, the courts of appeals and ultimately the Supreme Court."

• Senator Ted Cruz (27:37):
  "China is fighting a thousand-year war against the United States... China is the single greatest geopolitical threat America is facing for the next hundred years."

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Conclusion

This episode of "Verdict with Ted Cruz" provides an in-depth analysis of the strategic use of tariffs by the Trump administration, the internal debates surrounding their implementation, and the broader implications for the U.S. economy and national security. Additionally, it sheds light on the escalating use of nationwide injunctions as a tool to impede executive actions, framing it as a significant threat to democratic governance and policy execution. Senator Cruz and Ben Ferguson advocate for proactive negotiations and legislative reforms to navigate these challenges effectively, aiming to safeguard American economic interests and uphold the rule of law.

Transcript

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[Ben Ferguson]

It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz. Ben Ferguson with you as always. And Senator, it's nice to be back in the studio with you. You've been traveling like crazy. You guys have been really busy in Washington and adding some days onto the work week as well. We're finally back here together. We've got a big show.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So is something going on in Washington?

[Ben Ferguson]

Right? Exactly.

[Ryan Seacrest]

You know, there's an old Chinese curse. May you live in interesting times. We certainly live in those. Donald Trump has hit the White House with speed and fury and velocity. There's never been anything like it. There's never been a president like this in the first hundred days last week. Obviously. The president announced on April 2, tariffs on just about every country on earth. The highest tariff level since 1933. It is a big, big deal. Every nation across the globe is reeling. They're all trying to figure out what do we do about it. The stock market, the stock market collapsed. It went into free fall. $6 trillion evaporated in 48 hours. Now, Monday, everyone's wondering how's the market going to open Monday morning. But there's a lot of concern that the market isn't done going down. And the question is, where do we go from here? And I'll tell you, the reason President Trump is doing this is important. The reason President Trump is doing this is that we've seen over the last 50 years a hollowing out of manufacturing in America. We've seen what used to be the heart of the American middle class, the heart of blue collar jobs going away, being pulled abroad, going overseas, and the industrial Midwest just being utterly decimated by good paying jobs leaving America. And President Trump was elected for many things, but heart and center to fight for bringing those jobs back. That's right at the core of this, bringing those jobs back to America. But there is now a very active debate within the White House. Which direction do we go next? Do we use this as leverage to lower other countries tariffs and then lower our own tariffs to reflect that? Or do we leave these tariffs up forever and ever and ever? And I'll tell you, there are different advisors in the White House. There are angels and demons on each of President Trump's shoulders urging him use them as leverage or keep them forever? We're going to break down that debate and what the consequences are for you, what it means for you if these tariffs are used as leverage to lower the tariffs of our trading partners, and what it means for you if these tariffs are simply a permanent economic feature of America. We're also gonna talk about nationwide injunctions. Nationwide injunctions we have seen in the last three months. It is the new incarnation of lawfare. It is how the left is attacking Donald Trump. They are filing lawsuits. They are looking for left wing radical judges who are issuing nationwide injunctions to stop the President's agenda. We had a hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee this week on exactly this topic. We're gonna take you there and talk about what the problem is and what the solution should be.

[Ben Ferguson]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Look, the Cougars, they played incredibly against Duke. They were underdogs against Duke. It was a great victory. We're now in the finals tonight. I gotta say, Houston is going to win tonight, is going to beat Florida. Florida played well. They had a tough game against Auburn and managed, managed to just scrape it out. Florida is a good team, but, but, but they don't have what it takes to beat Houston. Houston's defense is too stifling. I'm going to call it Houston by six.

[Ben Ferguson]

I like Houston by six. I like the bull prediction. Well, Done. All right, so let's talk about tariffs. You and I, we did a show on Friday. It was a show that a lot of people listened to. It actually kind of went viral over the weekend as well. People just want to know what is going to happen this week, next week. There's concern, there's the stress, anxiety watching the market. But there's also something that's happening right now that's very interesting. Countries are lining up to meet with the Trump administration. Vietnam is apparently at the front of the line. They sent Emergency delegation, the U.S. they want to get a deal done as fast as they possibly can. And now we're hearing there's dozens and dozens of other countries are saying, hey, we want to talk, too.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Now, there is an historic opportunity here. And if the White House capitalizes on this opportunity, it could prove to be one of the most significant, one of the most powerful moments for US Economic interest for American workers this country has ever seen. Right now, every country that is on the receiving end of these tariffs, they're freaking out, they're panicking. This is a great opportunity to engage in let's make a deal here. Listen to Kevin Hassett, who is the head of the National Economic Council, describing how countries are coming to the White House right now. I got a report from the USTR last night that more than 50 countries have reached out to the president to begin a negotiation.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

But they're doing that because they understand.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That they bear a lot of the tariff, more than 50 countries, and that's just in a few days. And listen, I've had a lot of countries that are reaching out, talking to my office, and my advice to them is go cut a deal. Go cut a deal. And the front half of your deal needs to be the tariffs that we've imposed against U.S. goods, against U.S. crops, against U.S. livestock, against U.S. cars, against U.S. manufacturing, against U.S. services. All of those tariffs we are going to slash if we see Vietnam came in, Israel has come in. Israel and Vietnam were right at the front. But you know, it's interesting. Vietnam is a country that is worth talking about a little bit because we have a very significant trade deficit with Vietnam.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Do you know why?

[Ben Ferguson]

Why is that?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Because America is winning. Why do we have a big trade deficit with Vietnam? Because most of that manufacturing used to be in China. And what happened is America, starting under President Trump, leaned on manufacturers and said, move your manufacturing out of China. And so a whole bunch of them moved them out of China and went to Vietnam. So Vietnam was doing what we asked them to.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

We asked, hey, can you take on this manufacturing instead of China? And there was a massive move of American companies that pulled manufacturing out of China and moved it to Vietnam. Look, everything we do to delink from China is a good thing. So moving those jobs out of China was a terrific victory, and it was a victory for President Trump. It was the Trump administration that urged, move those jobs to Vietnam. Now Vietnam suddenly has a big trade deficit because all those jobs came out of China to Vietnam. And now Vietnam has a massive tariff that was levied on it by President Trump. The question is, are they going to work a deal where they lower barriers on both sides? I hope they will, but there's another path. Listen, there are voices in the White House who simply believe in tariffs as a permanent feature of the US Economy. There are voices in the White House that want these high tariffs to be in place in six months, in a year, in two years, in five years, in 10 years, that they want tariffs to be the main source of economic revenue for the federal government. That is a very different philosophy. And this is one of the things I'll tell you within the Senate with my colleagues, a lot of us are debating, okay, how much of this is leverage to get great deals from other.

[Ben Ferguson]

Countries and how much of this is what you said, economic revenue for the government.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And by the way, you get some people that talk about, well, we'll do tariffs instead of the income tax. And I gotta say, that sort of reminds me of the old cartoon Popeye.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. I'm like, well, wait a second. The last I checked, we still have the income tax and we have these tariffs. That's just a ton more taxes. If you want to get rid of the income tax, then we can talk. But I don't see anyone proposing getting rid of the income tax. And so at the end of the day, in my view, if the outcome from these tariffs is really high tariffs from every country on earth against American goods and really high tariffs from America against goods from every other country on earth, that is going to be really bad for Texas and really bad for America.

[Ben Ferguson]

Let's talk about momentum. You mentioned the people coming to the table and you heard there in that comment, 50 nations are now lining up. You and I both know that one of the things Donald Trump does really well is the art of the deal and loves when there's something to celebrate. Celebrating it. Yes, I see in our near future, Vietnam, America on stage, White House, we got a historic deal done, and that's where that move goes.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So what I'm urging is for the president to come and make major deals and make them quickly. Look to calm the stock market down. A few major deals quickly would really, really help. I would love it if this week, this week we had an announcement from the president that this major country came in, they offered huge concessions, they slashed their tariffs, and we're slashing ours. That would be a great outcome and.

[Ben Ferguson]

That'S momentum building as well.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Look, the stock market has a psychology to it. If people start saying it's a bear market, people start saying we're going into a recession that feeds upon itself. That means people are less willing to invest money, they're less willing to take risks. And so it is important for people to see the real tangible victories coming from this. And those victories are not just cash. One of the things you're hearing the White House say is, well, look at all the revenue we're getting from tariffs. That's not actually bringing jobs back to America, getting those tariffs. That's just raising prices. And if the immediate effect for voters of these tariffs is serious inflation because the cost of what they're buying is going up. I mentioned on Fridays podcast how one of the big three American auto manufacturers told me last week the effect of this tariff says they would increase the cost of the cars they sell by $4,500 a car.

[Ben Ferguson]

It's a lot of money to average Americans.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That is a lot of money. That is a big hit. And so we've got to see the upside. We've got to see the benefit. Look, one upside. Right now, Europe has a 10% tariffs on American cars. And prior to April 2, America had a 2% tariff on European cars.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Now I can tell you the Europeans are already back channeling. They are already putting on the table 0 and 0. They'll take their 10% to 0. We take our 2% to 0. And cars go back and forth from Europe and America without a tariff. That deal is there. The president could announce it this week. That's a major victory. Getting rid of those tariffs in Europe is a major victory, but it is important. So there are different voices. So for example, one of the voices speaking out is Elon Musk. We had Elon on the podcast. Elon said last week. Here's what he told Reuters. U.S. tech billionaire Elon Musk said on Saturday he hoped in the future to see complete freedom of trade between the United States and Europe. Speaking days after President Trump, Donald Trump announced tariffs on trading partners, Musk, a Trump advisor, has Been working to eliminate wasteful US Public spending. Spoke via video link at a congress in Florence of Italy's right wing co ruling party, co ruling League party. Quote, this is from Musk. Quote, at the end of the day, I hope it's agreed that both Europe and the United States should move ideally in my view, to a zero tariff situation, effectively creating a free trade zone between Europe and North America. So when I talked about angels and demons, Elon is one of the angels. This is a good, good voice that is focused on U.S. jobs that I hope the President is listening to. I hope the President is listening to Elon Musk. President Trump has an historic opportunity. The leverage right now is massive. The question is, will the White House make the decision to use that leverage to try to lower foreign tariffs? I'll mention something else. Very good friend of mine, works in finance, Very, very smart financier suggested an idea for how to use this leverage and get even more of a win win, which is he said, look, here's the problem. Let's say you're an American company or you're a foreign company and you've got a factory somewhere, you've got a factory abroad, you've got a factory in Vietnam, you've got a factory anywhere other than the US and you're contemplating, do I move the factory to the United States? The problem with that decision making is that move takes years.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

You can't do it instantaneously, even if you decide today, okay, let's build it in America. In a lot of places. Just the permitting takes years to get a factory permitted, much less built. By the way, that's why everyone should come to Texas. If you're gonna build a factory, come to Texas.

[Ben Ferguson]

Amen to that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

We'll permit it fast. We're not. If you go to California, you deserve what you get. Come to Texas.

[Ben Ferguson]

You should turn that into like a public service announcement.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right?

[Ben Ferguson]

Like, you go there, you get what you deserve. You want to get into business. Texas, place to come.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I will tell you as an aside. Several years ago, a CEO came and met with me in D.C. and he was thinking of opening a new factory. And he was looking at Texas, he was looking at California. And he said, all right, well, tell me in Texas, what will you give me to go to Texas? And I said, not a damn thing. I said, but we won't tax you to death, we won't regulate you to death, and we won't allow lawsuits just to tear you apart. And I said, you know what? If you go to California, you deserve what you get. So that being said, let's say you're a big car company and you're trying to decide, where do I put my next car factory? Just the process of getting it permitted, getting it built, built, putting the equipment in. That takes a minimum of two, three, four, five years. That's just how long it takes.

[Ben Ferguson]

Wow.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So the problem for your decision making is if you're looking at this, if you're doing it based on the Trump tariffs, you don't know how long they'll be in place.

[Ben Ferguson]

Sure.

[Ryan Seacrest]

If you're trying to look at the math, you don't know A, is Trump going to lift them in a deal where you may make a decision for the tariffs and then suddenly the tariffs aren't there anymore and the math changes pretty substantially, or B, at a minimum, in three and a half years, Trump is not gonna be president. So you don't know if the next president is gonna keep the tariffs or eliminate the tariffs. So the problem is, by the time you opened your factory, completely different group.

[Ben Ferguson]

Could be in charge.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So the idea that my buddy from the finance world came up with is for the President to announce a fund, an Invest USA fund, that individual CEOs could make it a commitment. Let's say you're the CEO of Mercedes Benz, that you could make a commitment. We are going to open three new factories in America, all in Texas. We're going to open three new factories in America and we're going to invest $100 billion in building these factories. Now, the piece that is, look, that has some teeth to what my friend suggested. Look, you can make that announcement, you can put out a press release, and by the way, if circumstances change, you never spend the hundred billion dollars. It doesn't actually arrive. The idea is you're the CEO of Mercedes Benz. You announced three new factories, $100 billion. You deposit the hundred billion dollars in the fund, the Invest America fund, you actually spend the money on the front end. Now, two things happen when you invested in the Invest America fund. Number one, the United States earns interest on the money while it's sitting there, so it's benefiting the US just from the interest. If you leave it there, we'll get interest while it's there. But number two, as long as you have that money on the fund, you get a credit that you can use against your tariffs. Maybe it's a one to one credit, maybe it's a two to one credit, but it's economically, you create an incentive.

[Ben Ferguson]

Incentive to put the money there for.

[Ryan Seacrest]

CEOs to invest in America, to create jobs in America and to actually deploy the cash. Because if you make the credit on the tariffs only dependent on the dollars actually being in the fund, let's say you give a 2 to 1 credit. So $100 deposit in the funds gets you a $200 credit on your tariffs. Yeah, that's pretty economically compelling to lean in and invest. And what we wanna see is what President Trump talks about a lot. A golden age in manufacturing where companies are profoundly incentivized to invest in America.

[Ben Ferguson]

Not only to grow, but to stay here so we don't have to worry about them leaving in the future.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes, yes. And if that has some real potency, an idea like that. But if the solution is simply, let's go back to the world in 1900 when you had really high tariffs, when you had, you know, 1933, you had Smoot Hawley, that played a major role in the Great Depression. When you put up walls, it hurts America. We compete very well on the global level. We just need to make sure we're competing fairly. And I think the President has real leverage to do that right now if he's listening to the angels and not the voices in his administration that are saying, more tariffs, more tariffs, Higher tariffs forever. Chu Chu Chu Cha Chumba looking for excitement.

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[Travis Holloway]

You know how we're always talking about what's next? Well, I found it. It's called Formula E. Forget everything you think you know about racing. This isn't just cars going fast. It's like a supercomputer on wheels. The tech is insane. And the drivers, they're like chess grandmasters at 200 miles per hour. You've got to see it. Trust me, you'll be hooked. Follow Formula E live on Roku next race. Miami, April 12th.

I'm Rodney Williams. And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the Wealthbreak. Let's be honest. Building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone. It's not just about saving. It's about investing. It's about navigating systems that weren't built for you, embracing your hustle and relying on your community to create something bigger. And that's exactly why we created the wealthbreak. We made something different, something more human. It's not just another financial podcast. It's a conversation about real life, real struggles and real wins. We're here to talk about the journey. You'll hear from people who've broken barriers, found creative ways to succeed, and learn to build wealth on their terms. Whether it's the first time homeowner, a gig worker, or someone turning a side hustle into a six figure business, we're bringing you their stories. And we're not stopping at success stories. We're breaking down the realities. Like what it means to take risk, how to navigate failure, and why resilience matters. Because wealth isn't about money. It's about creating a life where you can thrive and help others to do the same. So if you're ready for a podcast as much as about people as it is about money, you're in the right place. Listen to the Wealth Break podcast on the iHeartRadio app.

[Rodney Williams]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where Money means more Connect with.

[Elon Musk]

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[Ben Ferguson]

Let me ask you a final question on this and you talk about the two different viewpoints here. There is a real debate. I'm having it with friends, I'm having it with colleagues. I mean I've witnessed this on tv. There is, like you said, this core idea. There should always be tariffs. I've heard people talking about great examples. China, we should always be at 20% or 30% or 40% whatever that number is. And there's others saying no, you use this as leverage, you get the better deal now and then you have the market stabilize and people understand what the new norm is. That seems to be what you're advocating for, which is let the market know, the CEOs, know, the people that are deploying, you know, their, their dollars to decide what they're gonna do next. Give them whatever the new normal is going to be so that we can move forward. Is that fair?

[Ryan Seacrest]

You've got to have some modicum of certainty because if there's uncertainty, business doesn. No one invests if they don't know what the rules are going to be. If it's chaos, they sit on their cash and you don't have jobs. We want people to feel confident. And by the way, chaos under Biden came from regulatory chaos of new and job killing regulations, one after the other after the other. But if, if there is uncertainty, uncertainty is an enemy of investment and that means it's an enemy of jobs. So some limited uncertainty can be helpful to incentivize a deal. But we need to get to a deal. A predictable outcome. And I will say listen, China is different. I am actually quite fine with tariffs against China because I think delinking from China their economy, they have us in a position where they are single greatest geopolitical threat. They are utilizing that economic interconnection as leverage against America. And so I think everything we can do to move, moving those jobs from China to Vietnam is a good move, is an important move. And moving them from China to Mexico, that's a good move. Moving them from China to America is a good move. But everything we can do to delink.

[Ben Ferguson]

From China, it's not just trade, it's also national security. Right. And I want a bonus question. I think a lot of people when you mention this is a different mentality with China and tariffs are good there, I agree with you. My reason for it is a lot of national security reasons. I think that's something that's not been talked about as much. Give me your thoughts on that quickly so people understand the national security aspect of this.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So look, we saw in the middle of COVID how much our critical supply chains were dominated by China. China is fighting a thousand year war against the United States. When I arrived in the Senate 13 years ago, I said China is the single greatest geopolitical threat America is facing for the next hundred years. When I started saying that, almost nobody in the Senate agreed with me. All the Democrats disagreed and most of the Republicans disagree. Most of the Republicans looked at China and they just saw dollar signs as far as the eye can see. A lot more people's eyes have opened up to the threat China poses today. And I think Covid did an awful lot of that. You know, in the middle of the COVID pandemic, there was one major Chinese state owned newspaper that advocated cutting off life saving pharmaceutical drugs manufactured in China from going to America because we've allowed much of our pharmaceutical drug industry to be manufactured in China. And they were literally threatening to take away heart medicine and cancer medicine and diabetes medicine from Americans who needed to live. That underscored. This is stupid to let a communist government who is our enemy be in.

[Ben Ferguson]

Charge of our health in that way.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Likewise, critical minerals. Critical minerals. China has a stranglehold on the production of critical minerals which are essential for semiconductors and electronics and for defense and for all sorts of. We need to move all of that out of China. We need to be able to stand on our own. And I gotta say, President Trump has been really effective focusing on that threat. We need to accelerate the delinking from China, another threat.

[Ben Ferguson]

And it's not been covered in the news the way that it should have because we've been dealing with this. Obviously we led with this issue because it's very important. But it's judicial activism that's having a major impact on this administration. And in a shocking way, I would even say historic way, when you look at the numbers. You're dealing with this now in the Senate with these judges that are basically going to be activists, but their injunctions are having a hold nationwide. A lot of people didn't even know that was a possibility. Is it an abuse of power? Is there a check and balance that we need to have on that? Let's dive into that as well.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So it's an absolute abuse of power. It is worse than it has ever been. We have seen against Donald Trump in the first two months of administration, more nationwide injunctions issued against President Trump than in the entirety of the George W. Bush administration, all eight years. The entirety of the Barack Obama administration, all eight years. The entire of the Joe Biden administration, all four years. More in two months than in those 20 years we have seen.

[Ben Ferguson]

Two months and 20 years. You say it, you said it quickly. I want people to just pause and think about how much of abuse of power there has to be if they're doing it that much. This is deliberate.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, and listen to Attorney General Pam Bondi talk about this.

[I]

The president is going to comply with the law. He was overwhelmingly elected by an overwhelming majority of the United States citizens to be our commander in chief. And that's what he's been doing, Shannon, just since January 20th. We've had over 170 lawsuits filed against us. That should be the constitutional crisis right there. 50 injunctions. They're popping up every single day. Trying to control his executive power, trying to control where he believes our tax dollars should be allocated. And saying he won by an overwhelming majority is so important because that's what the American people want, what President Trump campaigned on and what he won on. And he's implementing that agenda at a rapid speed. None of us can keep up with them every single day. And so it's just, we're going after all of these lawsuits, we're defending them all. We just got a great win. And we'll continue to fight.

[Ben Ferguson]

I talked to a judge this week and he described it this way because I was wanting to understand this subject. Obviously, we were going to talk about it. It' and we haven't dealt with this a lot. He said, in essence, what the court's doing, Ben, is they are doing a coup against Donald Trump by neutering him with his agenda. And he said, that is not how the Constitution was set up. Like, you should not be able to neuter a president this way. Saying, we know you won, we know the American people support you, they voted for you, but we're not going to let you do what you're supposed to do as president anyway.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, and Barack Obama and Joe Biden put left wing radicals on the courts. And then this is Democrats, state attorneys general and left wing radical groups going and seeking out these radical judges, many of whom, by the way, used to work for the groups that are suing. I mean, it is fundamentally corrupt and it is one judge. Normally a judge has the authority over the parties before him or her, right? But these judges are issuing nationwide orders trying to stop everything President Trump is trying to do. We had a hearing of the Judiciary Committee last week on this that was focusing on the threat to democracy and the rule of law from these nationwide injunctions. Here's what I had to say at the hearing.

[Rodney Williams]

It's long been said that hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue. I have to admit, I'm enjoying listening to my Democrat colleagues suddenly discover the virtues of the rule of law. After four years where they brazenly supported the most lawless Department of Justice and the most politically weaponized Department of Justice.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Our nation has ever seen.

[Rodney Williams]

We just heard the senator from Rhode Island Talk about the imperative of protecting judges. And yet not a single Democrat senator cared about the violent protesters that showed up outside Supreme Court justices homes, including, I might note, female justices like Justice Amy Coney Barrett threatening their family. And Joe Biden's attorney general didn't do a damn thing and refused to enforce the law to protect those judges. Why? Because he agreed with the violent protesters and he wanted to intimidate and threaten those judges. Professor Bray, under our Constitution, who should decide elections? The voters or unelected judges?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

The voters are the ones who should vote in the election according to the laws. And the laws sometimes have to be applied by the judges if they're.

[Rodney Williams]

And under our Constitution, who is charged with making policy decisions? Elected representatives elected by the people, or unelected federal judges?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I think the question of policy, Senator, is a little broader than the particular case. So the basic laws should be enacted by Congress. That's where the fountain of law, policy.

[Rodney Williams]

Decisions are the elected branches.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Rodney Williams]

Law is the. Is the province of the court. Policy is the province of the elected branches. These are not complicated. Professor Bray, let me ask you this. Do the federal courts have power to issue remedies for people who are not parties to a case?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

That's a question I agree. Is not complicated. They do not have that power.

[Rodney Williams]

Is the phrase nationwide injunction or universal injunction found anywhere in the Constitution?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

It is not.

[Ryan Seacrest]

First chart.

[Rodney Williams]

In the first 150 years of our republic, how many nationwide injunctions were issued?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

My view is that there were not any until 1963.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Zero.

[Rodney Williams]

Now fast forward. How many nationwide injunctions were issued in the entire 20th century?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

It's a small number. I would. I would think it would be a dozen, give or take. It's not large.

[Rodney Williams]

27. Actually, excluding Trump's first term, how many nationwide injunctions were issued in the last 20 years?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Far more than that.

[Rodney Williams]

32 from 2001 to 2024. Against Biden, Obama and Bush. 32. And how many nationwide injunctions have been issued in the last two months alone?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

There have been quite a few.

[Rodney Williams]

37. Let that sink in. There have been more nationwide injunctions in the past two months against President Trump than in the entire 20th century. There have been more nationwide injunctions against President Trump in the last two months than both terms of George W. Bush, both terms of Barack Obama and Joe Biden's term. We saw during the Biden presidency law fair, indicting President Trump four times, using the machinery of justice to attack him. And that was an attack on democracy because Democrats today hate democracy. Democrats today are angry at the voters for reelecting Donald Trump and electing a Republican Senate and a Republican House. And they engaged in lawfare to stop democracy from operating. Understand this is the second phase of Lawfare.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Second chart.

[Rodney Williams]

This is the second phase of LawFare. Now that their efforts to indict President Trump and stop the voters from reelecting him have failed, they're going and seeking out individual radical judges to try to shut down policies. And they are forum shopping like crazy.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Give.

[Rodney Williams]

Give me any loon judge put on the bench by Obama or Biden who disagrees with the policy. We just saw a judge flagrantly ignore U.S. immigration law concerning TPS being revoked. U.S. law explicitly said there's no judicial review for that. But, hey, they found a judge who says, you know what? We, the Democrat Party, we are the party of illegal aliens. We are the party of murderers and rapists and gang members. And the Democrat Party exists here to fight to keep murderers and rapists and gang members in your communities. There's a reason the Democrat party is at 26% approval nationwide, because they put radical policies ahead of rule of law nationwide. Injunctions are an abuse of power. It is the judiciary acting as policy deciders. And it is incumbent on this committee and this body to rein in the abuse of power from these unelected radical judges who are trying to overturn the election because they disagree with what the voters decided.

[Ben Ferguson]

So here's my question you just teased at the end, and that is it's our job to look at reining them in. How long does that take? Can it be done through legislation? What are the options here, and how quick can we get this under control?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, it could be done quickly. There's legislation. In fact, there's legislation we were talking about at that hearing that Chuck Grassley's introduced that I'm a co sponsor of, that would remove the power of a district judge to issue nationwide injunctions. I think that makes an awful lot of sense. Is that gonna pass? Probably not. Because for it to pass in the Senate would take 60 votes, which would mean we would need seven Democrats to support it. Every Democrat, they're enthusiastic about this lawfare. They want to see more of it. So they are dug in. That remedy is not there. The other remedy that you and I have talked about before is impeachment. Impeachment. You can impeach a judge in the House with a majority vote, 218 votes. It may well make sense that one or more of the most egregious district judges who are defying their oath of Office should and perhaps will be impeached by the House. However, if and when that happens, it'll come over to the Senate for the trial. And under the Constitution, it takes two thirds to convict. That means we need Democrats and the Democrats are not going to convict. There may be value in impeaching one or more of these judges anyway to highlight the utter brazen lawlessness of it. And doing so would mean we could have a trial on the floor of the Senate to lay out just how lawless their conduct was. But the judge is not going to be removed because the Democrats are all in. In support of illegal aliens and against the rule of law. That means the remedy are, number one, the court of public opinion, making people understand just what an abuse of power this is. And number two, the appellate process, the courts of appeals and ultimately the Supreme Court. Now, I will say immediately after I finished my questioning, Amy Klobuchar spoke next.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And I think my comments rattled her because she tried to respond. And I gotta say what she was saying made so little sense, I couldn't resist jumping in. And we had some real fireworks. So here, give a listen. And the only reason there's all these injunctions, Senator Cruz, is because he's violating the Constitution. Why would Trump appointed judges.

[Rodney Williams]

Why don't you file them in red. Red districts, Senator Cruz?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Why? What did you just say?

[Rodney Williams]

Why don't you file them in red districts? Why are the Democratic Attorney General seeking out Senator Cruz? Left wing.

[I]

My patient.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

With Senator Cruz's activity in this bill.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Senator Whitehouse is entitled to.

[I]

I'm just going to ask for a point of order.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Madam Klobuchar.

[I]

Senator.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Senator Moody.

[Rodney Williams]

We have debates on this committee. They occur regularly person.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Let's let her have her time and.

[I]

Then we'll get back to that. If you want to wait, we'll get back to you.

[Rodney Williams]

Senator, welcome to the question or not her choice.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Go ahead. Following Senator Cruz once again. Excuse me, but I will say. Excuse me, I didn't hear you.

[I]

What did you say?

[Ryan Seacrest]

To be following him. He and I have a. I was.

[I]

Permitting you your time to continue.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, to be following him in order.

[I]

Excuse me. Go ahead. Senator Klobuchar during hearing. Go ahead.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That's what I'm referring to.

[I]

Go ahead.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And I will take more than my time since he's taken more than his time to yell at me. So what I will say is that I'm not yelling.

[Rodney Williams]

I asked a question.

[I]

Senator Cruz, please. I'll give you time.

[Ben Ferguson]

I do have to say. I've seen you yell that was not yelling.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I didn't raise my voice at all. And by the way, Amy Klobuchar had no answer.

[Ben Ferguson]

None.

[Ryan Seacrest]

She's like, well, oh, these injunctions are issuing because everything he's doing is illegal. It's like, great. Why don't they file them in red districts? Why are you seeking out the most left wing judges in the country who used to be radical activists who were nominated because they're radical activists who used to work for the left wing groups that are now bringing the lawsuits? Why are you only filing them in their courts if it was so clear, if it was such a slam dunk, you ought to be able to file them in red districts. And nope, nope, they ain't gonna do that. She had no answer whatsoever. Because this is about power and abuse of power. This is not about the rule of law.

[Ben Ferguson]

Don't forget, we do the show Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Hit that subscribe or auto download button. If you're watching us in the video on YouTube, make sure that you subscribe so you don't miss a single episode on YouTube. We put out a lot of stuff on YouTube so we want to make sure you get all of that as well. And grab my show, the Ben Ferguson podcast on on those in between days. I'll keep you updated on the latest breaking news because there's a lot happening in Washington. The senator and I will see you back here on Wednesday morning.

[Travis Holloway]

You know how we're always talking about what's next? Well, I found it. It's called Formula E. Forget everything you think you know about racing. This isn't just cars going fast. It's like a supercomputer on wheels. The tech is insane and the drivers, they're like chess grandmasters at 200 miles per hour. You've got to see it. Trust me, you'll be hooked. Follow Formula E live on Roku next race Miami, April 12 for some of.

[Rodney Williams]

Us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with [e-mail] I'm Rodney Williams.

[Travis Holloway]

And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the Wealthbreak podcast, a real conversation about finance. Let's be honest, building weft doesn't look the same for everyone.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have to revisit that.

[Travis Holloway]

And we're not stopping at success stories.

[Ryan Seacrest]

What happens when it doesn't go right? How do you cope with it?

[Travis Holloway]

Because wealth isn't just about money. It's about creating a life where you thrive and help others do the same. Listen to the Wealth Break podcast on the iHeartRadio app.

[Elon Musk]

Discover Vizio's complete lineup of home entertainment. From stunning smart TVs to immersive soundbars, Vizio has you covered. Experience clarity like never before, bringing your favorite shows and movies to life. Plus, with Watch Free plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on demand TV right out of the box. You can even stream your favorite music and podcasts with the iHeartRadio app ready to go on every Vizio Smart TV along with hundreds of other pre downloaded apps. Ready to transform your home entertainment? Visit Vizio.com today It's true that some.

[I]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Com.