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- [00:12]
A
Welcome to VetBusiness, brought to you by the Veterinary Hospital Managers association, where innovation meets expertise in the veterinary industry. Join us as we delve into the latest business trends, explore emerging technologies, and share strategic insights for today's veterinary practice leaders and managers. Whether you want to enhance your practice's operations, improve client engagement, or stay ahead in this dynamic field, VetBusiness is your go to resource for confidently driving your veterinary practice forward. Let's dive into today's episode. Well, welcome.
- [00:48]
B
I am Brian Conrad and I'm your host for VHMA's Vet Business podcast. Joining me today is Gwen Delabar, a senior recruiter and owner of the Vet Pro Central, a recruiting agency dedicated to the veterinary industry. Gwen has over 30 years of experience in the field of veterinary medicine. She has worked in all areas of the veterinary practice and in all types of practice profiles. Ms. Delavar completed the VMC School of Practice Management in 1989, taught by the late and great Mark Opperman, and it's something we share in common, too. I also attended that school. She went on to establish Progressive Veterinary management services in 1992. PVMS is now known as Vet Pro Central and works nationwide in recruiting. Gwen is also the founder of the National Veterinary Talent Acquisition Association. That's a mouthful. Which is launched in 2024. She's collaborating with the NVTAA in setting up the first certification program for veterinary recruiters. Recently, Ms. Delavar wrote a book called you, Veterinary Dream Team, A Practical Guide to Attracting and Retaining Top Talent. Gwen has two amazing labs, Ginger and Opal, and they keep her company during her recruiting efforts. Welcome, Gwen.
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C
Thank you. I'm happy to be here, Brian.
- [02:04]
B
Well, I appreciate you making the time for me. Tell me about your story. I know you've been doing this for a very long time and you're passionate and dedicated to this industry, but what got you started and how did you get into the recruiting portion of it?
- [02:16]
C
The recruiting portion came sort of organically. I moved to California from Texas and no one would hire me because I was pregnant, so. And showing. So they were worried that I wouldn't come back after the baby was born. And so after I had attended Mark's school, we continued to have a professional and personal relationship. And so I reached out to him and said, I need to work. And he said, well, why don't you have me come down and do a seminar and I'll introduce you and we'll talk and you'll have veterinarians there. So with his help, we put together the. It's what's up front that counts. I'm sure most of the listeners have probably been to that seminar. And from that veterinary practice owners started calling me and saying, how can you help me? And we quickly figured out that what they needed was team members, they needed practice managers. So I started the company by only recruiting managers. And from that then those clients started asking us to do veterinarians. So we started doing those as well. And now we place veterinarians and management personnel nationwide across the United States.
- [03:28]
B
Okay, very cool. And before that you were actually working in clinics. So you truly understand kind of the inner workings of what goes on in our day to day lives, is that right?
- [03:37]
C
I do and I remember it well. And throughout the years of recruiting, every couple years I'll actually go into a practice and work a couple of days a week over the course of three months or six months so that I learn all the new techniques. Not in depth of course, but I learned what is being done. The new medications because they're changing so rapidly and the new services that we can offer. Plus, it's fun. I like working on the floor.
- [04:01]
B
Yeah, well, it keeps you in real life too, right? It keeps you up to date and yeah, that's awesome. You had said that you're recruiting kind of managers and DVMs. Do you also do credentialed technicians or do you just focus on the first two?
- [04:15]
C
I tend to focus on the first two with our really good clients. If they really need veterinary technicians, we will search for those as well. But our main focus is veterinarians and of all stripes, any type of veterinarian and management. Sure.
- [04:32]
B
And talk to me about the landscape today. And you know, we've talked for many years that we've had a shortage of DVMs. And are we still seeing that? Talk to me about the landscape of where we're at.
- [04:43]
C
Yes, we are still seeing a shortage. And I think there's not one reason why we are seeing that shortage. It's a combination, but it is still very, very real. The last stat that I heard was that for every veterinarian looking for a position, they probably have access to six to 10 jobs that will want them. And that means competition is fierce. Sure.
- [05:06]
B
And is there a portion of the geography that's easier or harder?
- [05:13]
C
Both coasts are pretty easy. The middle of the country is a little more difficult. Rural practices are even more difficult, which is a shame because those communities deserve to have a good veterinarian in their community as well. Sure.
- [05:29]
B
Besides the obvious of not being able to find a suitable Candidate, what do you find? What is the hardest part of the job for you?
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C
The communication between candidate, client and myself to keep that flowing, to keep it moving forward. There's so much noise out there with emails and text of social media that just cutting through all that and staying connected is vital.
- [05:50]
B
Sure. With your Lenki experience, talk to me about some of the differences you're seeing today in today's market versus 15, 20 years ago.
- [06:00]
C
Well, in some ways it's so much easier now. When I started, we used the phone book, the yellow Pages, I don't even know if they print those anymore. And we would just sit down and call people and we would call a hospital and it's a little intrusive, but we would call a hospital and ask to talk to the doctor and hopefully not get the owner doctor because we're talking to them about a job. And, you know, people find that intrusive, but that was really the only method we have other than just mailing them a letter or a postcard. And now, of course, we have the Internet, we have social media, we have AI, we have many, many more sources. A way to reach people without being so obtrusive. It's still intrusive, but sure.
- [06:45]
B
I'm sure you see a disconnect at times where applicants are wanting. Their wants and needs are maybe a little different to the employer that has wants and needs. Can you talk to me about some of the differences in those?
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C
The biggest is just trying to match expectations. I think with new grads, it's a little difficult because they don't really know what they want or they have an idea of what they want and it might not match the reality of working in a veterinary practice. Anything from schedule to days off to the length of the day, all the way to salaries and compensation. They're kind of in an ivory tower when they're in college, and unless they've had prior experience, sometimes they just don't understand what it's like to be in a veterinary practice and the reality of that it is a business and it has to run like a business. And so it's difficult from the practice owner's point of view. They want the very best person they can get for the least amount of money that fits within their budget. And sometimes it's difficult to match those two things up.
- [07:57]
B
When you have owners that are reaching out to you, what is maybe one of the biggest requests or what are their needs and wants? Are they so desperate to where they're like, I'll take anything, or are they very Much like I need 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
- [08:10]
C
They still have expectations. They. Most of them do not just want to hire a warm body because they know that creates chaos in their practice and turmoil. But they often wait till the last minute. They wait till they're in dire need, and then they reach out to us. And then they. They ask me and other recruiters, how quick can you find someone? And I don't make any promises or guarantees because I don't know, it just takes longer now than it did five, 10 years ago. So timing is a big issue.
- [08:39]
B
Sure. And in the vet schools, do you see education being done with the up and coming graduates about kind of the landscape of finding a job and what to expect? And do you feel like that education's being done, or is that something that you've gone to the vet schools and maybe discussed with the grads?
- [08:58]
C
I have gone to the veterinary schools. We attend a lot of their career days and so do almost everyone else out there. They can, of course, private practice tends to stick to the state that they're in or relatively close. The schools are doing some. They have career services and they are doing some education. I'm not sure at some level that it's the best that it could be. They set the new grads up for some unrealistic expectations sometimes. And then also one of the things I hear frequently is the schools are telling them they absolutely have to do an internship first, which is not true. And they absolutely need to go with a corporate practice or a practice that has four or more doctors that they won't get mentoring if they're not in that type of practice. And that's absolutely not true. You can get better mentoring or great mentoring one on one. Sometimes in a one doctor practice or two doctor practice versus a five or six doctor practice. It depends on the individual that's supposed to be your mentor.
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B
Now, you brought up mentoring. Is that one of the big requests that you're getting from the new grads?
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C
Absolutely. Across the board, they talk about mentoring so much more than they even talk about salary. And they want real mentoring. They don't want just someone to go, oh, go do this. They want someone not so much just to hold their hand all the time, but to be there and answer their questions and support them.
- [10:21]
B
Well, talk to me about what are some of the different approaches that you see, the new grads versus the kind of the seasoned veterinarians. Can you talk to me about some of the differences? Because so obviously you're with your new grads. I mean, one of the things that you talked about was the mentorship that they want. And you're probably not going to get a seasoned grad of 25 years saying, I need mentorship or want mentorship. Can you maybe talk about some of the differences when you're placing these veterinarians?
- [10:46]
C
To me, the biggest difference is the fact a seasoned veterinarian and often an early career veterinarian know more about what they want and they know what they're looking for with the new grads. Some of them are very, very devoted and they know exactly what they want they want. They know the path they want to follow. But often they're kind of scattered and they, they might give us like three locations. We want New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. And then we start looking in those areas, we start helping them find good connections and good practices to work. And then all of a sudden they go, oh, I just accepted a job in Texas. We're like, what? We didn't even know you were, you were interested in Texas. So that's the biggest thing is they just. Not all of them are as focused. And I don't blame them. They've just gone through a lot of schooling. And one of the big differences now is that they are able now to say, I only want New York, I only want the city. I'm not going anywhere else. Where 10 years ago, a new grad would take a job anywhere they could get a job. And then once they got those two or three years experience, then they would go back to their home city or state.
- [11:56]
B
Do you see these new grads as, do you see them committing to the practices? I mean, so obviously you have a track record of being able to really kind of follow some of these applicants. And do you, do you see these new grads and staying in a location for greater than a year, or do you see the. Is there kind of a trend where they take a job and then they're there for a year to 18 months and then they move, kind of move on? Talk to me about what you're saying.
- [12:19]
C
In the past, absolutely, they would take a job for a year and then go to wherever they wanted to be. But now I see that they're more particular about where they're going to end up and what kind of practice they're going to end up in. So we do see the longevity, lasting. Plus the practice owners, both corporate and independently owned, I think they're doing a better job of meeting the needs of the new grads and working hard to keep them in their practice.
- [12:46]
B
Talk to me about Sign on bonuses. So I've seen some ridiculous sign on bonuses over the last five to 10 years. Is that still kind of a thing? Is that kind of an expected or what is it you're seeing?
- [12:58]
C
We still see. I just saw a client Yesterday, he's offering $100,000 sign on bonus. But it's for a practice that's in the hill country of Texas and so they want that to bring people there. But then I also had an excellent candidate or an excellent client in Pismo Beach, California and they wanted to offer a hundred thousand dollar bonus. And I'm like, you've got a great location. So if people see that $100,000 bonus, they very well may think there's something wrong with your practice that you have to offer that. So let's be realistic. And I don't like those large sign on bonuses. They're often tied to three or four years of commitment to the practice. And who knows what your life is going to be three years from now. Four years from now, you may not be able to stay in that particular location for that length of time. So then you've got this whole do I have to pay it back? So I think a realistic sign on bonus makes more sense. Along with adding that along with the moving expenses is, is a better approach. But $100,000, $50,000, that's a lot of money.
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B
Yeah. And that was going to be my next question. You kind of already answered it. But what are, what are the stipulations usually with these sign on bonuses?
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C
It's, it's great, they're large like that. It's a payback. It's, you're, you make not 100% of the time, but most often you're going to have a two or three year contract. And again, who knows what life's going to bring in those two or three years. So what if you don't like the practice? What if the practice doesn't like you? So if you get those kind of sign on bonuses and then if they're tied to production, there's one group out there that ties the sign on bonus directly to production. Well, if your practice owner or your managers aren't making sure that you can achieve that production and it's directly tied to that sign on bonus, then if they're not marketing you, the cases aren't coming in. If business slows down, then you may not get the bonus anyway.
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B
Interesting. What are we seeing with non compete clauses these days?
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C
That's a very hot topic. Still, of course there's more and more states that are not allowing them, but there still are some. And so I think I don't particularly like them, but if they're realistic, I can understand why practice owners want them. But I think what practice owners really want is a non solicitation clause in their contracts. More than just a non compete. It's very difficult to stop someone from making a living.
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B
Yeah, talk to me. For the listeners maybe that don't know what is the non solicitation clause. Talk to me about what that is.
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C
So if you leave a practice and you build a new practice or you go into a site a couple of blocks away or within that same market that you don't actively download their database when you leave, and then you don't actively solicit the team or the clients.
- [16:03]
B
You published recently a book and you were talking as we talked off kind of off air or whatever. You were telling me that was one of the harder accomplishments in your life. Is that right?
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C
Yes. I thought it would be easy because I've been doing this for so long and I know the industry so well and I know recruiting so well, I thought it would just be, basically, to put it crudely, vomiting everything out of my head onto a piece of paper. It's not that easy. I found it very daunting and a little stressful. And then my publisher was coming back to me and going, gwen, you know, when I talk to you, you sound very warm and very friendly and very personable. None of that's in the book. And I'm like, well, that's. The book's not about me. The book to me is a textbook. You should be able to sit down and use it and move forward and make sure that all the parts of your talent acquisition program is meeting all those criteria. And it's hard. It was hard. Yeah.
- [17:03]
B
I want to take a step back. So when you're actually recruiting, are you actually doing kind of the first layer of the filtering of the candidates or at what point does. Is the potential practice, at what point are they having that meeting? So just maybe walk me through the process. If I called you today and said, hey, I want a doctor, can you find me a doctor? I'm just curious on how the process works. And then let's come back to the book.
- [17:29]
C
Okay. Basically the first step is that I do an intake conversation with the practice manager, the practice owner, and find out everything possible about the practice, the culture, the team, makeup equipment, everything. I want to know everything about that practice and then I want to know what they've done to Recruit and where do they feel they have, for lack of a better word, failed? If they've worked with other recruiters, I want to know how successful was the other recruiter with them and what did they see the shortfalls were. And then from that, then I go out and of course I've got a job description and a list of requirements. They're hard yeses, they're hard nos, they're maybes. And then I go out and find those candidates. And of course I have a database, an ATS that has a pipeline. So I first look there and then from there we just start sourcing and interviewing. We interview every single person that we present. Sometimes it's a back and forth several times, and then once we feel like we have a really good match, we from experience, education and compensation requirements, then we'll introduce them to the client. And then once the client sees all their paperwork and then they say, yes, I want to meet this person, then we introduce them and then we assist as much as or as little as the client wants or the candidate wants. And then we also, if it's a practice manager that's doing the search and they need some help with negotiating or talking about back and forth about the requirements and about the schedule, then we help with that as well. And then hopefully we get down to the offer.
- [19:08]
B
So as a, as a practice manager, so I'm curious, what is harder to do? Is it harder to place a DVM or a manager right now?
- [19:16]
C
It's harder to place a dvm, yeah.
- [19:19]
B
So your book is entitled your venery dream team. Talk to me about some of the highlights or kind of broad strokes, because it's so funny, 30 minutes before you and I got on this phone call, I literally when recruiting a csr. And
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C
so, yeah, I want to, I
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B
want to pick your brain a little bit, but maybe give me kind of just a little brief overview of the book.
- [19:41]
C
Basically, it's start to finish, nuts to bolts. It's how do you set your team up or your practice up and how do you make sure that you can stand out? And you know, we hear that, we hear that all the time. Your practice has to have a story and it has to stand out. And you have to be truthful. You have to look really hard at yourself. You can't promise a pie in the sky. Oh, we've got a great team. They're long term, they're supportive if you've got chaos in your practice. So you. And you also have to have look at your expectations. So to me, it's you first look at your job description, look at your culture. You get a really good thorough description of that and then you go out and you can't just rest on placing ads. Ads, I mean, sometimes they work. When they do work, I'm always surprised. And it's not bad to have an ad out there as long as you're looking at your cost. So look at your budget. Don't just spend the money and put the ads out there everywhere. And then, and then the book talks about what, what should you say in an ad, how should you position yourself, where should you position yourself? And then you just, once you've done that, then you can start sourcing. It's really difficult for a practice owner to be the recruiter. So the book talks a lot about what are your expectations, how do you set yourself apart and then how do you actually source?
- [21:05]
B
So I've got some interviews scheduled this afternoon. Obviously they're not for a veterinarian, but I actually am going to have a veterinary candidate here in a couple weeks. Do you have two or three just questions that you just absolutely love or you can't wait to hear what the response is?
- [21:18]
C
I have a list of questions that we ask every single candidate so that our. So I strongly advise that, that you ask every single person the same thing and also that you don't choose the person that you like because we tend to hire our family members or our friends. And so you need to take that chatter out of your brain so that you're looking at their, you look at what their experience is. And I don't rest well, veterinarians are a little different. But for CSRs, I don't rest just on what their resume says. I also look at what their dream is, what are their goals, what do they want to do? If I see a CSR that's been working at Walmart, say, but she's been volunteering at a shelter, but she doesn't have any real front desk experience other than the exchange, retail exchange. Then if she's got the can do attitude and the personality, then I might go ahead and hire her over someone that already has 3 years experience in a bell hospital.
- [22:22]
B
Okay, good advice. Now, not all of us use a recruiter and try to recruit on our own. Kind of similarly to what I'm doing today. What are some of the common mistakes that you see me and others making?
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C
Hiring a warm body instead of the right person. And then again that you feel a connection to someone and you kind of overlook maybe some red flags is the biggest thing That I see,
- [22:44]
B
I think trying to get the hiring process started before you're back to the wall. Right before.
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C
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
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B
If you could give a few words of advice about finding success and being attractive to potential candidates. In other words, what do I need to do to attract top talent today?
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C
Well, you have to tell the truth. You have to tell a story. You have to have something, a hook to catch them. So the same oh, associate veterinarian wanted everyone saying that. So say something different. Come live and work at the beach if your practice is by the beach. And then you talk not only about the practice, but you talk about the, the community. What does the community offer if you are. I can't think of any college. Well, Wildcats, some Wildcats in Arizona seeking Wildcats. If you're trying to, to find somebody from the University of Arizona. So you just need a hook and you need to have your ad state something new and different that will attract their attention.
- [23:52]
B
Sure. Okay, I like that. What, what about the work life balance? So are you seeing. So, you know, we, we all joke about the, the 80 to 100 hour work weeks that we had 30, 40, 50 years ago today. Realistically, the candidates that you're working with, are they willing to work 30 hours, 40 hours? What are some of their expectations? I know it's hard to put them, it's hard to do a blanket statement. But in general, what are you seeing?
- [24:22]
C
I see a lot of people want that 32 to 35 hour work week. They don't really want to work weekends. A lot of er, veterinarians no longer want to work overnights, which is a little tricky sometimes. It is still very much a buzzword. And people, especially people younger than you and I, they want to work to live. So they want to have fun at their work. They want to enjoy the team they're working with and they want to have a life outside of work. So the more that you can offer that, the better. And I, you know, we tend to follow human healthcare and they now, Human healthcare now very clearly has been doing three 12s and a lot of veterinarians are starting to do that as well. That means you might need to hire two veterinarians or two CSRs, when before you would just hire one. But then they work three 12s and they have four days a week off.
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B
Interesting. So let's have some fun. Gwen, you ready to have some fun with your years of experience?
- [25:25]
C
I have fun every day.
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B
With your years of experience. Do you have just kind of a funny story or some big flags that you've seen? Out of a candidate or something that maybe you could entertain us for a few seconds.
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C
Well, the funniest story I know is not even my story. It's Stacy Purcell's and I know she won't mind if I share it. The veterinary recruiting niche has changed a lot over the last three years, primarily the last three years. And so we see these groups, these recruiting groups that come in that have it experience or automotive or lawyers, whatever they do, and then they jump into veterinary medicine. They think, oh, we can do this. Well, Stacy had one of these groups call her and say, hey, I see you have a job in St. Louis, Missouri for a veterinarian. Well, I have. And wait for this. I have a pediatrician that would be perfect for this row. And she goes, what? Excuse me? And he says, well, I have this pediatrician that wants to be. Wants to consider your row. And well, a pediatrician can't do this. Well, why not? They're a doctor. So that was probably in 30 some years. That's the funniest story that I've ever heard.
- [26:46]
B
That's great. I love it.
- [26:48]
C
This recruiter had no clue of the difference between a pediatrician and a veterinarian.
- [26:55]
B
Well, maybe they need to join your association, Gwen, because they do need to.
- [27:00]
C
Everyone needs to. Any veterinary recruiter, any hospital administrator, anyone that has recruiting needs to join it. It's going to make a difference.
- [27:08]
B
That's awesome. Well, over the next five to 10 years, in your opinion, what are veterinary clinics going to have to do to stay relevant in finding and retaining veterinary professionals?
- [27:19]
C
Continuing to work on their story, continuing to offer excellence in veterinary medicine and employee care, making certain that they have the support that they need for their employees, all of them. And watching the mental health issues. They also need to really look at reproductive health care for families. That's come up a lot from candidates that I've talked with in this past two years. And also AI they need. You know, AI is a wonderful tool. I know a lot of people, they get hot and cold about it. It's a great tool. Is it going to take over our practices? Absolutely not. But we need to have the bells and whistles needed with all the new surgeries we can do, all the new medications we have available and all the services that we can offer. We have to stay on the cutting edge all the time, but then also always keeping in mind spectrum of care that we need to make sure that we take care of the community that we're working in. You know, if your practice and your team can go out and do Good works in the community. Not so you can post it all over and brag about it, but just so that you're taking care of the community. We need to be a good community partner, and I think that will help set practices apart as well.
- [28:39]
B
Yeah, I love that you brought up Spectrum of Care. That was last month's guest. So it's. That's what we discussed with Spectrum of Care. So great, great topic. Well, do you have any final words for our listeners, Gwen?
- [28:53]
C
I think every practice should be working with the recruiter. We're just as important as your accountant and your lawyer and good recruiters to make a big difference. It just makes a difference with the competition so fierce. What your network is, it's going to be different from what my network is. And it only takes one to make a difference for your practice.
- [29:14]
B
Well, I so appreciate your time today, Gwen. It's been just such a great pleasure to speak with you. And from everything, from understanding that we still have a great need for DVMs and good managers in this country to finding a way to set us apart and finding a great story. We all have great stories, but finding a way to. To communicate that and tell that story to the possible applicants out there and finding success. So thank you so much.
- [29:37]
C
I really appreciate you asking me. I know it took me a while to say yes, but it's a joy to talk with you. I know you've got the same kind of experience I do, and good luck on your search this afternoon on your interviews.
- [29:49]
B
I appreciate it. Maybe I'll do the search live.
- [29:52]
C
You'll have to report back.
- [29:54]
B
Absolutely. That'll be episode two with you.
- [29:58]
C
Excellent.
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B
Until next time, for Gwen Delevar, I am Brian Conrad. I look forward to speaking with you next month on what is impacting managers and the veterinary industry. Have a great day.
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A
Thank you for tuning into VHMA's vet business podcast. We hope today's insights inspire you to push the boundaries of veterinary practice management. Subscribe, review and follow VHMA for more episodes. Until next time, drive your practice forward and create a brighter future for veterinary care.