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- [00:03]
Benedict Townsend
This is a global player original podcast. You know those addictive videos that follow a marble as it sets off an elaborate chain reaction? Well, this extended metaphor is about as hard to pull off as one of those. Stay with me. Now, if YouTube was the first domino that set the marble off, vine was the perfectly timed slingshot and propelling it forward. And Instagram, the magnetized pulley, lifting it higher than the marble, perfectly landing in the bucket. That's TikTok. My point is, in the digital world, everything is connected and timing is everything. Every day, 34 million videos are posted on TikTok. So if you have a great idea that misses its off ramp, tough luck, buddy. Today's algorithms worship newness, meaning trends have the same lifespan as a housefly. And songs, sounds and challenges become nauseating as quickly as they become catchy.
- [01:06]
Bridget Todd
You see how I do my makeup for work?
- [01:08]
Benedict Townsend
Very demure, very mindful.
- [01:11]
Bridget Todd
See how I look? Very presentable.
- [01:12]
Benedict Townsend
The way I came to the interview.
- [01:14]
Kenny Knox
Is the way I go to the job.
- [01:16]
Benedict Townsend
I know we've all moved on, but there's a reason to dredge that one back up again. Demure dominated our public lexicon in 2024. And it was very cutesy for a while. Very mindful, in fact. Until it wasn't. The viral catchphrase made cashier turned content creator Jules Lebron an overnight sensation. Her TikTok following skyrocketed into the millions, earning her appearances on morning shows, late night tv. But just two weeks after she started trending, two strangers had already submitted trademark applications for her phrase. Now, don't worry, Jules fought back. She won. She cashed in. When JLo, the Kardashians, Maybelline, the White House, even NASA jumped on the trend, she was able to turn brand deals into life changing income. And this isn't uncommon, but it's a cautionary tale. Remember hoctur hoc tu? How could you forget hoc tur? The US Trademark Database has over 30 applications for it, including one by the woman who actually said it. Not dumb, you are. And this messy business of viral ownership started on Vine. I'm Benedict Townsend, host of Scroll Deep, a show that's chronically online so you don't have to be. And this is is vine six seconds that changed the world. The biography of the little app that could and then didn't. Of all of Vine's features, the app's greatest triumph, the democratization of content, the thing that allowed anyone to rise to the top spot. That's what made it a cultural force. While the origins of the most iconic vines may be lost, forgotten to the sands of time. They still live on today. TikToks riffing on Vine Energy and YouTube compilations of TikToks that taste like Vines are still bringing the greatest hits to a new generation. But the same thing vine was celebrated for, that allowed people to go from complete obscurity to genuine stardom, may also have been the app's biggest blind spot. You're not likely to know the name Brandon Moore, but you've very likely heard his iconic video Officer. I got one question for you. In 2015, Brandon, who went by the creator name Busco, posted a video of a police officer in the act of arresting one of his friends. The officer looks up at the camera and we're all expecting some kind of protest against the arrest to follow, but no. With a quick pan down, he zooms into the officer's clumpy black work shoes and exclaims, what are those? What are those? What are those?
- [03:43]
Bridget Todd
Like that, like, tell me that was not the most subversive thing you've ever seen, where it's like, oh, you might be an armed agent of the state who can like, shoot me and not have any consequences, but I can still roast your shoes in front of millions of people. And millions of people are going to see it.
- [04:00]
Benedict Townsend
Bridget Todd is the creator and host of iHeartRadio's tech podcast, there Are no Girls on the Internet. Based out of Washington, dc. She's also a former vine addict.
- [04:10]
Bridget Todd
I believe that the people who are making the most interesting subversive, like the people who made Vines that became part of the cultural lexicon, were black folks. And like Peaches Monroe talking about her new eyebrows that were on fleek, that went on to define an entire generation, right? That went on to be used in all different kinds of campaigns. It stuck around, right? We in this bitch fanna get crunk eyebrows on fleek. Da fuck.
- [04:37]
Benedict Townsend
I would bet that even if you've heard the phrase on fleek before, this might well be the first time you've heard Peach's name. Real name Kayla Newman. Peach's Monroe went mega viral in 2014 after she posted a Vine admiring her perfectly plucked eyebrows. Coining the phrase on fleek, the term which the Oxford Dictionary defines as extremely good or very attractive in style, became a sensation. When Ariana Grande picked it up, it reached new levels and brands jumped on the bandwagon, keen to show that they too were hip and cool. The same thing happened to Busco, AKA Brandon of what Are those? He actually posted the original video on Instagram, who By then had made their own rival push into short video. But it was quickly shared by another user to vine, and from there it went stratospheric.
- [05:33]
Aaron
What are those?
- [05:35]
Benedict Townsend
They are my Crocs.
- [05:39]
Bridget Todd
Those are my troglops.
- [05:42]
Benedict Townsend
To call my sandals. Tens of millions of loops on that first video and millions more on imitation posts as other users rushed to do their own take. The problem. Brandon himself had been behind the camera when he made the video. Yes, the line was his, but he appears completely anonymous in the final product. And the account that shared it on vine belonged to someone else. So while the audience adored his creation, he hardly received any credit for it. Then in 2018, Marvel cemented the meme's place in pop culture history by including it in a little known indie movie by the name of Black Panther. The real question is, what are those? Why do you have your toes out in my lap? Okay, Mary, you might think that that was a great compliment to Brandon as the meme's creator, but that's not how it felt to him, was it?
- [06:31]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
No, certainly not. In the end, sadly, Brandon passed away in 2019. He was just 31 years old. He did speak to HuffPost before he died, just after Black Panther's premiere. He told them that he was, quote, sick as fuck over how it had been used. He'd actually spoken to press earlier than that. After the meme first went big and he was being asked, you know, do you mind that you made this thing and no one knows it's you? He was actually saying, no, it's great, it's amazing. I feel like I gave the world a gift. He was really pleased and it was great to see that he had had this impact on the world. But clearly in the sort of intervening years, it started to feel a bit different for him. And I think it was when he was seeing these big, big brands using it and benefiting off it. He said that when they went and they saw Black Panther at that moment, he wanted to turn away from the screen and not acknowledge it.
- [07:24]
Benedict Townsend
I get it though, because it's. It. At first you're like, okay, yeah, I made this cool thing that's fun. And especially in this time, it's like, how do you. How do you even monetize these things? Is there an expectation of that? As he said, I've gifted the world this thing. But then it gets to a certain point where it feels like, oh, seemingly everyone is benefiting from this thing and in fact, people are profiting from this thing except me, the person who made it. That would make you feel sick.
- [07:46]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
Exactly. And particularly because he doesn't even feature in his own video. Even the policeman was out there doing interviews and, you know, getting recognized in the street and having people sort of do repeats. Brandon never got any of that. And he really felt like specifically he said he wished that he had been able to find a way to trademark it somehow or get it, because he should have got some kind of particularly money for it when other people were making money. And that's exactly also how Kayla felt. Peaches Monroe, who did Eyebrows On Fleek, I mean, she was more attached to the content because it was her face. But brands went crazy for that. You know, On Fleek became something that a lot of companies were using. And she tried a couple of times to launch herself with it. You know, she started her own brand, and it was of kind called On Fleek, and she was doing sort of fundraisers, and, you know, then she would be talking to the media about it, and it just seems like it never really took off for her. I mean, in terms of finding her now, having tried hard, I can tell you she's disappeared online.
- [08:41]
Benedict Townsend
I mean, is it too much to ask that your name be relatively as known as the incredibly famous thing you create? Yeah, Is that too much to ask?
- [08:50]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
I mean, it's like, we all know the feeling like, you know, you make something good and then you see someone else get the applause, and you're like, imagine that on a massive global phenomenal scale.
- [09:01]
Benedict Townsend
It's like when you say a joke too quiet and someone else in the group repeats it louder, but the person repeating it louder is the Walt Disney Corporation.
- [09:10]
Bridget Todd
It's a phenomenon where when a person of color, a black or brown person, creates something on social media, the consensus generally is, oh, it doesn't matter who created it. It's just the Internet. It's just ideas for the taking. But then the person who takes those ideas or the institution that takes those ideas, they certainly make money off of it. Right. When Applebee said on fleek in an ad, that that was certainly a commercial exchange. Right? And so there is a pervasive attitude across social media that when black and brown people create things that go on to have a lot of cultural cachet, it's okay if those same people are completely shut out of any economic benefit of that and that other people can just make as much money as they want without giving them any kind of credit.
- [09:52]
Jasmeet (Jasrain)
I know when a slang word dies when I see in, like, a commercial or like in a brand deal or like a corporation, I'm like, oh, this is it. It's officially dead now. Because now it's officially being gentrified and used to like, make money or like create profit.
- [10:07]
Benedict Townsend
You met Jasmeet AKA Jasrain in our last episode. To him, it's really no surprise that the mainstream is hungry to take on the language of minorities.
- [10:15]
Jasmeet (Jasrain)
I don't know what it is. Like, does suppression add a sense of flavor? I don't know. You know, it's like, I always find when you're in those groups, like, there's so much more flavor, whether it be in your food or your culture or like the way you speak. You have to make best with what your circumstances are. And so you always. That's why some of the best comedy or art or music or culture, food comes from these communities. Because even when it comes to slang, a lot of slang came from that and became popularized through Vine. Like, I think even the discussion of, like, where are these terms coming from? Came from that time where people are like, you know, this is like being borrowed or stolen or whatever, whatever term you want to give it. And when, like a corporation that doesn't really have a familiarity with this culture or group is like, oh, that thing's working, let's take that and try to make profits from it. That's maybe what was happening with the popular Explore page as well. Like when those terms or slangs were being taken and then were being used by these bigger creators and being used in a way that was like, the funniness isn't there. The richness, the flavor of it isn't there anymore because it's just being used on such a broad scale. That's when that specific slang dies. But I guess again, that's just a part of the ecosystem.
- [11:22]
Aaron
I don't know.
- [11:22]
Jasmeet (Jasrain)
That's just the profit driven corporate structure. It's a byproduct of that. There's a new one being born or being used right now that nobody knows about.
- [11:30]
Kenny Knox
You know, I mean, shoot, this stuff. I say that is popular on TikTok. I'd be like, pop, hold it down. Like, that's just from Vine. I say swag. That's my culture when I was younger, but they call it aura now. So sometimes I was like, man, I got aura.
- [11:46]
Benedict Townsend
Kenny Knox grew up in the suburbs of Detroit and was in high school when he discovered Vine. About a year after the app launched, he instantly felt at home.
- [11:54]
Kenny Knox
It was Damn near over 100 black creators, if not more, but it was like a whole black vine community. And it's a lot of slept on, like creators that a lot of people didn't grow up with. Vine might have just seen like vine compilations or only watch popular creators. It was like levels to it. It was like really cool and organic where they will make lifestyle videos. And then they had turned scenarios that happen with the people in the black vine community into memes. And that's where a lot of the popular memes came from. Random black people. And so when we say things like that, like, of course people is going to repeat it or start adding into the lingo because a lot of people be forgetting we influencers, we influence the masses. That's what made vine cool because it was like, you can find any group of people on vine and find great friends. It was just a great community.
- [12:41]
Benedict Townsend
Kenny quickly found his stride and grew quite an impressive following. In fact, he was actually the very last person to win the coveted Viner of the Year award. What?
- [12:50]
Bridget Todd
My dad is going to beat up your dad?
- [12:51]
Benedict Townsend
I don't even have a dad.
- [12:53]
Kenny Knox
Well, I'm sorry, Tyrone. I didn't mean it like that. It's okay. Why this teacher called my house Mom, I am home. School. Shut your stupid ass up.
- [13:02]
Benedict Townsend
As he developed his own content style, he started having hits that many people piggybacked on.
- [13:07]
Bridget Todd
Oh, my boy going to school.
- [13:08]
Benedict Townsend
Fuck it up, Kenneth.
- [13:10]
Kenny Knox
No, it's a part of it originally. They know where it came from. I know where it came from, but it's just like paying homage. I feel like if you taking something directly from me or like you taking my identity, my, like, niche, my style of video, like you taking everything from me, you know, I feel a certain type of way, but I mean, it's different if it's something from us and they just saying, oh, this is a meme. Or it just depends how the person who's saying it just discredit the people who created it. But I feel like it's just a part of culture. Like when terms go crazy, it's like, I'm glad that's going far because I can't gatekeep lingo or a term or I try not to envy anybody or. Because usually if somebody's like inspired by me and they make videos like me, I just reach out to them and work with them. Iron sharpens iron. If you making videos like me. I feel like with me doing comedy for the longest, I was just imitating my favorite comedians until I learned how to actually do comedy.
- [14:05]
Bridget Todd
Early days of vine, the thing that I remember the most about it, black people roasting others. That was like, you know, we are. Despite the fact that we're very creative and have an interesting perspective and a lot to say, oftentimes we find ourselves shut out of more traditional, mainstream platforms. So when we get platforms that are a little bit more democratized, we shine there. So for me, it was really these windows into just showing a different perspective. I think that people who came from traditionally marginalized backgrounds because of the democratization of the content on vine were really able to demonstrate how funny, witty, subversive, off the wall, over the top, creative, talented we really are. Right? So I think that the people who made vines that really had staying power in terms of a cultural cachet were people of color, black and brown youth.
- [14:57]
Benedict Townsend
What Bridget's saying feels instinctively true when I ask people to recall favorites off the top of their head. There are certain vines that always come first. The God Tier Vines one hit wonders that capture a moment of magic, seemingly by pure chance, launched into the ether by creators who in a puff of smoke, disappear back into normal life, never to be seen again.
- [15:18]
Bridget Todd
I love you, bitch.
- [15:19]
Benedict Townsend
Oh my God. I ain't gonna never stop loving you, bitch. Steady your pitchforks, white viners. Whiners. I'm not saying that the God Tier is entirely made up of minority creators. I mean, there was the ginger kid blocking out the haters with plastic spoons. Hey, I'm sorry.
- [15:34]
Bridget Todd
I didn't see you there. I was too busy blocking out the haters.
- [15:37]
Benedict Townsend
And they were roommates. Oh, my God, they were roommates. Happy Christmas and Merry Chrysler.
- [15:43]
Bridget Todd
Merry Christmas. Merry Chrysler.
- [15:46]
Benedict Townsend
But if we're being real here, it feels like a disproportionate number of history's favorite vines came from minorities and especially African American creators. This the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. It's watermelon inside of watermelon. I got a question.
- [16:09]
Kenny Knox
LeBron James.
- [16:10]
Bridget Todd
LeBron James.
- [16:11]
Benedict Townsend
I'm Semi.
- [16:12]
Bridget Todd
I stay automatic money adding, multiply and read your Bible.
- [16:19]
Benedict Townsend
Today's creators are much more aware of taking ownership of their content. Even if memes and catchphrases are a nightmare to trademark, the public cares that creators get their due. For example, the guy who tried to trademark Jules lebron's catchphrase. Very demure, very mindful. Before she could, he had his address publicly listed on Google Maps. Don't do that, by the way. We're not encouraging that on this show. We're in a different era now. But back in the life of vine, we're still in 2013, and no one really knows how to protect their content, let alone how to make money off this thing. But that was all about to change.
- [16:58]
Brandon Calvillo
Peak Vine. I could only describe it as like an acid trip because it just didn't feel real when it was happening.
- [17:07]
Benedict Townsend
That's Brandon Calvillo, the subway worker from Orange county that we met last time, whose vine comedy skits were popular page mainstays.
- [17:14]
Brandon Calvillo
I was a big person on vine, but the thing we were known for was just these little dumb videos. Like we weren't known for being actors in films or musicians. We were just known for making dumb videos. But we were very known. Like a lot of Viners would get on talk shows and stuff. Back in that day, if you had a viral video or a viral vine, you'd be on like Ellen. It was crazy. You get these brand sponsorships and all this stuff. But all of this success comes from this, this little app, 6 second video app that's on your phone.
- [17:49]
Ryan Broderick
I believe that vine is up in the, the echelon of perfect technological moments, along with maybe the first summer of Pokemon Go. And it's really been downhill from there for short form video after it went away. I miss it all the time.
- [18:07]
Benedict Townsend
Praise from Ryan Broderick is praise indeed. He's one of those tech reporters who are so deeply immersed in the online world, he could pro you a definitive ranking of every pixel on Google's homepage. In 2013, he was fully tuned in as vine became a household name.
- [18:22]
Ryan Broderick
Around middle 2013, 2014, you started to see like 27 vines you've got to watch. You know, it was, it was that era, this massive influx of digital publishers just, you know, writing up any viral moment and then sending it out to Facebook. Right. And that era was, you know, it's very silly to look back on now, but I think it was very useful for identifying when something had kind of broken through the zeitgeist, when a content type could become something that your parents could read on Facebook.
- [18:56]
Bridget Todd
Okay, I think peak vine is when somebody on Twitter replied with the why you always lying guy during a Republican presidential debate.
- [19:08]
Benedict Townsend
Why the fuck you lying? Why you always lying?
- [19:13]
Bridget Todd
Oh my God, stop fucking lying. I remember it was like hella viral on Twitter. And so I think that was something I loved about Peak vine is how things started on vine and then became memes off of Vine. Right? And so like the picture of the why you always lying guy, you could just pick a still of that guy's face and reply to a tweet and people would totally get it. They would know exactly what you meant. And so for me, Peak vine was this like off platform conversation where people completely understood this reference in totally different pockets of the Internet.
- [19:47]
Benedict Townsend
Vine started out as this kind of punk, rogue creative machine punching way above its weight with a relatively small pool of creators, no rules and almost no algorithm. For Ryan, it was a kind of magic.
- [20:00]
Ryan Broderick
So I think it was changed eventually. But at first you couldn't upload video into vine. You had to film the video with vinegar. So there was this implied spontaneity, this sort of implied magic where it's like, wow, I captured this six second clip and it's crazy. I mean, a lot of it was like very typical for the era of viral video stuff. So it was just like funny moments, it was people doing pranks or extreme behavior in public. It wasn't something you edited, it was just something you, you filmed. And a lot of the ones that went viral had like a very specific feel to them, which was like, oh, I managed to capture this like six seconds of incredible video content.
- [20:39]
Bridget Todd
Another one that comes to mind is back at it again at Krispy Kreme.
- [20:43]
Kenny Knox
Back at it again at Krispy Kreme.
- [20:45]
Bridget Todd
Where's the guy doing a backflip at Krispy Kreme? And one of those massive neon Krispy Kreme circular lights is there and obviously he's about to hit this light and it's, it's definitely going to shatter, but the vine ends right before you hit it. So you're left with a lot of questions, none of which are answered by the vine, but somehow you get the context. So I would say peak Vine Energy is chaotic, but in a way that makes sense without a word of context or explanation.
- [21:15]
Benedict Townsend
That magical, ephemeral quality that's since been dubbed Vine Energy. With more users than ever before and a place securely in the mainstream, vine content hit its second wave. The evolution came in part alongside subtle design and interface changes. The like the introduction of an upload function. Now videos no longer had to be captured directly in the app, but could be created externally and then loaded in. This opened up a whole new world of creativity, don't get me wrong. But it also traded off a lot of the spontaneity that had made the app a success in the first place.
- [21:48]
Ryan Broderick
Then once you could start to upload videos to vine, the nature of what was going viral there changed a little bit. It became a little more high concept. And that's when you get like the real we now say, like, oh, this TikTok has vine energy. That's what we're talking about. People who are doing sort of Absurd skits, weird art projects that are like, really funny, but in a really short way. And it'll cut like right at the right moment. I have a million examples of this sort of thing and describing them out loud always sounds like describing a dream. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, but there's one really good series that I loved, which was this guy, he's outside of his apartment, there's a woman up at the window on the second floor and he's like, toss me my keys. And then she throws a printer and the printer just smashes on the ground next to him. And he's like, I said my keys.
- [22:37]
Bridget Todd
Then she goes, I thought you said printer.
- [22:39]
Benedict Townsend
Why the fuck would I say printer?
- [22:40]
Ryan Broderick
And like, that's the whole video. And that's sort of what I would describe as like, maybe the, the secondary wave of vine humor, which was sort of happening in tandem with the more organized influencers. And like, I think you could almost view it as sort of a reaction to it, which we kind of see on other video platforms. Like, as one half of the video platform gets like really standardized, the other half gets really chaotic. We're seeing that with TikTok right now.
- [23:04]
Benedict Townsend
It all felt like a party. And what party is complete without a multinational corporation?
- [23:10]
Ryan Broderick
We also started to see brands on vine, which is kind of your, your dead giveaway that your, your social network has blown up. So we started to see really bad, weird advertisements being made as Vines, which I remember just thinking were insane looking. But they tried.
- [23:29]
Benedict Townsend
The brand deals on vine were weird and ineffective, but they were the first step towards refining the online ad ecosystem that dominates the world today. The same ecosystem that saw a platform like Meta make $69 billion in digital advertising in 2023 alone.
- [23:46]
Ryan Broderick
It was a really innocent time when you think about it, because, like, no one really knew what to do once you had gone viral on Vine. And that I think that was, that's the other sort of tell that vine had broken through, is that we were getting like genuine vine celebrities or, or vine viral stars. And there was this real question mark of like, what does that mean? Like, what do you do now? Because it's only six seconds. So it's like being famous for a gif. It's not really a lot of room to build on.
- [24:15]
Benedict Townsend
When brands realized that successful creators could be their most direct access point to customers, it didn't just change what it meant to be a Vine creator. It changed the entire social media landscape. Here's Brandon again.
- [24:26]
Brandon Calvillo
Brands quickly started coming to mind. Brands like Coca Cola, Aquafina started to come to vine and be like, how do these, these people are getting huge numbers. How do we get in on this? And they would partner with Viners and be like, hey, if you make this, this video for us, we'll pay you X amount of dollars. So I remember the first one I did, I believe was with Virgin Mobile and that was work that they were like, you need five Vines and they all have to be kind of like this. They gave me, you know, creative freedom, but they're like, you kind of have to, you have to hit these bullet points. So that was work. And I treated it like work. I was, I wasn't messing around. I was like, this is a big company. They, I'm. I don't know why they're trusting their brand with this dumb kid. But that was work.
- [25:14]
Benedict Townsend
For Aaron, still working at the bookies, William Hill, in case you're wondering, in Dover, the arrival of brands on vine changed his life forever.
- [25:21]
Aaron
Well, I got the call one day, I got a message off, I think it was Starbucks who asked me, can I do a brand deal? And I was like, what the hell's a brand deal? I remember them saying, can we speak to your management? And I was thinking, what? William Hill? Because I had. They were like, no, you've got like250,000 followers. You must have a manager.
- [25:38]
Benedict Townsend
No, Aaron quickly got an agent and never looked back.
- [25:41]
Aaron
And then they got in touch with Starbucks and it was like a five grand deal. That was like winning the lottery. I swear, that was like literally winning. I was on. I remember we worked out my wages a few months back. We were speaking about me and Charlotte.
- [25:53]
Benedict Townsend
Charlotte is Aaron's wife, by the way.
- [25:55]
Aaron
I had 80 pound a month to live on after all the bills, after everything. We had 80 quid a month to live on. So five grand was like, what. And they, what, they wanted me to, to do these new videos with them, a free, it was free video deal and we did it. And after I, I'd love to go and look at them videos again because it was like, that was the start of everything for me. And I've got to thank Starbucks. Yeah.
- [26:19]
Benedict Townsend
Was there a bit of a gear shift for you after that of like, oh, this, this could be something?
- [26:24]
Aaron
Yeah, that was it, that was it for me. Right, so what happened was, right, this is, this is the truth. I made the decision to go part time at work without Charlotte, know him, because I thought, right, if I want to, if I really want to do this, I've got to Ramp it up. I've got to make 12 videos instead of six. I've got to go for it. Constant. So I went to three days a week at William Hill. That lasted two days and I quit my job, didn't tell Charlotte. So I was getting changed at home into my work stuff. I was leaving my house. Wow. Getting dressed in the bus stop and then doing my videos. That lasted for two weeks because I had the money. And then I had to come clean to her because I was getting caught by my. By her being out in public and she was like, why are you not at work? I was like, I'm just training or doing training thing or. But I was normally in my normal clothes. My dad's. My mum kept catching me. Her mum and dad could catch me. And it was like, had to come clean and said, look, I've quit my job. Charlotte, right? You know, in. Obviously it was meltdowns at the house, the mortgage, pay the mortgage and oh my God, we've got a new baby. What are you doing? Get your job back now. But I put the five grand on the table and I said, look, that's for us. Where the hell did you get the money from? I was like, from doing this one video for brand deal for Starbucks. I said, you gotta believe in me, please. If not, I'll just get my job back. Never look back.
- [27:44]
Benedict Townsend
Nice.
- [27:44]
Aaron
Never look back.
- [27:46]
Benedict Townsend
Finally, popularity was turning into real opportunity. But that also meant real competition. To get advertising deals or appearances, you had to stay on top. There was enormous pressure for creators to prove their worth to brands by churning out content that kept the fans happy and engagement high. Maybe it was inevitable then that soon there were accusations of cheating from smaller creators who were increasingly finding that their own jokes and sketches were being replicated without credit.
- [28:14]
Chris Melburger
A lot of times these big Viners would literally steal ideas, like word for word, but, like, switch it up a little bit.
- [28:21]
Benedict Townsend
Chris Melburger was a mid level creator who actually ended up working for vine hq. More on that in the next episode. And he was best known for having great links in the vine creator community. Like so many others, he saw jokes or even whole skits getting repeated by.
- [28:35]
Brandon Calvillo
Different users and theirs would blow up.
- [28:37]
Chris Melburger
And then people like, you know, who had like under a hundred thousand followers would be like, that was my idea. And they would be like, they would completely ignore you or be like, no, it wasn't. Or like, too bad, like that's the name of the game. And it'd be like, but now on Tick Tock, like, everyone is constantly remaking Rehashing, remixing the same idea over and over until it's beaten to. Whereas, like, on vine, if, like, one person stole your idea, it was like you would have to send, like, an army to be like, hey, can you.
- [29:02]
Benedict Townsend
Think of an example of that happening?
- [29:04]
Chris Melburger
Anyone? Honestly, from that era, like, the big 1600, like, any of the big people, like, you would see a video and go, I've seen this before. There was no real way to prove it sometimes because it was like, they would just act like they never saw it. Like, yo, why would I have ever seen that? I'm too big and busy. I would never have saw that. But, like, it was like, that's so similar, though, man. Like, they would kind of just make whatever the hell they wanted. And they would probably. They would like, remake either Vines or, like, Tumblr posts or, like, memes that were, like, clearly not their ideas. And they would just film, post it, get a million billion likes. Because, like, all the young girls on the app would go nuts. Because, like, they were. They were huge at the time. Like, they were like K Pop huge.
- [29:46]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
You know what I mean?
- [29:46]
Chris Melburger
Like, you know, they would walk anywhere. People would show up in droves, like Nash, Greer Cameron, Dallas Carter Reynolds, Taylor Kniff, like, this whole crew. Shawn Mendes, but, you know, he's. He ended up doing stuff, which is cool.
- [30:00]
Benedict Townsend
The big 1600 that Chris is referring to were a group of around 20 of Vine's biggest stars and who had all moved into the same apartment complex around 2015 in order to create videos together. The complex was on Vine Street. And if that sounds familiar, good job you're keeping up with the series. If it doesn't sound familiar, then I don't know why you started on episode four, but good luck to you. Andrew Batchelor, known as King Bach. He was the first to move into 1600 vine. And then others like Amanda Cerny, Lily Pons and Logan Paul soon followed. At one point, Justin Bieber was even hanging out there.
- [30:33]
Chris Melburger
I mean, I wasn't like, super, super close to them, but based on, like, you know, the vibes and the, you know, the drama they would get into. Like, a lot of them now, like. Like, most of them probably aren't really all friendly, but. But, you know, now these guys are shilling, like, NFTs and on Netflix or, you know, selling sports drinks. Like, they're all. Or boxing Mike Tyson. Like, they're all doing stuff, but some. It's either like they're doing, like, huge things or they're completely just done and they're Gone and they're like not in this industry anymore. But at the time it was, I think they were very transactional with their collaborations. I know, like behind the scenes. Like one of my buddies did, did a Vine with some of those dudes and would. They would get like pissed if they didn't get like a tag. If they didn't get like a directed by or shot by tag, which is like pointless to begin with. But like you didn't tag me in that post and it blew up. They would get like really angry. So I think the difference was with all the guys who went to la, they wanted to be stars.
- [31:28]
Ryan Broderick
Right.
- [31:29]
Chris Melburger
They wanted to be in the industry, they wanted to do movies or whatever they want. They loved the attention, they loved people talking about them, they loved making stuff, but they loved it as a business. Like they really wanted it to be their moneymaker. And I think a lot of like the indie miners, quote unquote, like the people who were, I guess, I guess like actually funny. This was kind of like the, the idea. They're more of like the writers, you know, the stand up comedians, the people who like to get a laugh but don't necessarily want to do it for a job because it's cringe to like make money doing this.
- [32:05]
Benedict Townsend
By this time, Brandon Calvillo was also a big player himself. And by virtue of living in California, he was right in the heart of Vineland.
- [32:13]
Brandon Calvillo
My paid a visit to Vine Street. Yeah, I remember thinking, oh, how cute. This is so cute. All the big Viners are in the Vine Building because it was called, it was on vine street in LA and it was called 1600 Vine. And they all live there like a little college frat or whatever. And I went there sometimes to film because they all live there. You know, I, I had to, I had to go over there and I would see the ecosystem which was they all lived in close proximity and they would knock on the other person's door and just be like, I got an idea, I'm gonna go knock on whoever's door. And they'd knock on their door like, all right, we have an idea, let's film it like in the courtyard. And then they would. Or let's film it around the building or anything.
- [32:55]
Kenny Knox
And.
- [32:57]
Brandon Calvillo
But I went there a few times, I never lived there. That felt odd to do. But you know, to each their own.
- [33:05]
Benedict Townsend
I'm a bit stuck on this. I'm just obsessed with the vine street house because I just think it's so funny. Yeah. Do you know anything of like what the process was To. To get to live in the house.
- [33:17]
Brandon Calvillo
Like hazing or like initiation where you.
- [33:21]
Benedict Townsend
Have to have so many followers or.
- [33:23]
Brandon Calvillo
You know, I think in order to get into the vine house, you had to sacrifice a lamb to Satan. No, I don't know what it was. I really don't. It was like. I think it was just. If you were a big enough creator, by the way, you didn't have to do anything. It was just an apartment building. You could just move there. Like, it wasn't like. Like treehouse, like, what's the password? It was like, this was just an apartment complex where they all decided to move. So if you were a Viner and you decided to move there, you were around all these big viners, but that didn't necessarily mean you filmed with them. I think they only wanted to film with each other because, A, they all knew each other, B, they all had huge followings. They could all mutually benefit from each other's followings and they were in close proximity. That's why they all were in that building. Um, but I don't think there was like a initiation to get in. Like, you know, I mean, other than. Other than a security deposit.
- [34:15]
Benedict Townsend
You mentioned the. The kind of mutual benefit. Smaller creators maybe were throwing out allegations that the big dogs were maybe gaming the system a little bit. But obviously there was a bit of a revine for revine. You know, there were certain people.
- [34:27]
Kenny Knox
Oh, yeah.
- [34:27]
Benedict Townsend
Who could absolutely dominate the popular page. Do you think that was unfair?
- [34:31]
Brandon Calvillo
You know, so, yeah, Viners, big Viners started to do revine for revine, which was essentially, they would just hit each other up and be like, yo, you revine this vine of mine and I'll revine this vine.
- [34:44]
Benedict Townsend
Let's take a moment to explain revine for revine here. Just get it sorted because it's going to keep coming up again and again. It's very simple. I feel like most people would be familiar with the idea of just sharing content or, for example, retweeting a tweet. Basically, when you revine a video, you take someone else's video and you put it in front of the eyeballs of the people who follow you. Right. And so very quickly, people realized they could game this. Because if I've got a million followers and you, Mary, have got a million followers, if we keep revining each other's videos, we're effectively putting it in front of 2 million people. Right.
- [35:14]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
Supposing we've got different followers.
- [35:16]
Benedict Townsend
Exactly.
- [35:16]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
Yes. Important.
- [35:17]
Benedict Townsend
There might be some crossover, sure. But there will definitely be some people who don't follow, whatever. And so we're able to, one, just get way more eyeballs on our videos. And two, there's a little popular page which is judged purely on how many views are getting. And if you are, I'm not gonna say scamming, but if you are cleverly getting lots and lots of views.
- [35:35]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
I think you just said.
- [35:36]
Benedict Townsend
No one heard me say that if you're getting lots and lot of views, you're going to shoot up that popular page.
- [35:40]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
The minute the big players are making deals between themselves, we're no longer sharing it. Because it's like, oh, this is great, I just have to share it instead. We've made a deal.
- [35:48]
Benedict Townsend
Yes.
- [35:48]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
So I'll share with yours, you share with mine. And now suddenly we are multiplying our number of followers and it just means that the smaller guys don't stand a chance.
- [35:57]
Benedict Townsend
Yeah, because you're up against sort of a cartel of people with millions of followers.
- [36:01]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
Exactly.
- [36:01]
Benedict Townsend
Who are pushing those videos to everyone.
- [36:04]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
Yeah.
- [36:04]
Benedict Townsend
These days, of course, on TikTok and stuff like that, the very clever modern algorithms solve this problem because instead of just getting a raw feed of videos, they're slightly curating what you see, so people can't dominate. But back then, vine is basically uncurated, so you're just getting a non stop shop of Logan, Paul, etc. Then of course you have the additional twist, which is you have this popular page that is the one thing that's sort of curated on vine which just tracks the most viewed videos. But again, if you and your mates, who all have millions of followers are trading revines, you're going to just juice yourself to the top of that popular page and be there all the time. How could anyone compete with that?
- [36:42]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
Yeah, it's a classic monopoly. You've got complete control of it at that point because the popular page means they're coming to you. And because they're coming to you, you're making the popular page.
- [36:51]
Benedict Townsend
Here's Ryan again.
- [36:52]
Ryan Broderick
The top vine stars moved into one apartment building together on vine street in LA and basically created like a video views cartel where they would all just appear in each other's videos and remain in the top 10 videos on the app.
- [37:09]
Benedict Townsend
It felt like the feature had a detrimental effect on how creators were working and what they were posting. Manon Matthews, you remember her, she was the stand up who tried vine for a laugh. Well, at this point she had millions of followers, but she still found herself dwarfed in sheer numbers by the very biggest creators whose follower counts could be almost 10 times that I remember, even.
- [37:29]
Manon Matthews
One of our videos from the indie Viners literally got verbatim copied by one of the bigger Viners. And that got revined. And so now they're getting credit for this idea that wasn't theirs. Meanwhile, we posted our video like three months prior to that, and it did really, really well, and people really, really liked it. But of course, these bigger Viners got the credit because all their friends who had millions and millions revined it. And so, you know, those kinds of things were a bit annoying and I guess, seemingly unfair.
- [38:05]
Benedict Townsend
For Manon, it felt like the feature had a detrimental effect on how creators were working and what they were posting.
- [38:11]
Manon Matthews
We're not all playing an even game, right? We're not all, like, getting authentic views because of the app's algorithm and the people who genuinely like it. Once a 10 million, you know, Viner is revining someone who has 7 million, like, that video is going to take off. They're all smart for getting together and be like, we're all going to just create this team and revine each other's videos so that we become the top. It worked, you know, so good on them for being able to think like that. You know, I know we eventually kind of tried to think like that, but I don't even know if I ever revined other people's videos that I wasn't in. That's not to say that I wasn't revining content that I was in, because you have to start playing the game.
- [38:55]
Benedict Townsend
Katie Knox takes a slightly more forgiving view.
- [38:58]
Kenny Knox
I mean, shoot, that's how we all blew up. Like, I didn't have enough pride to just be like, yo, I don't want any revinds, like, because I would have enough activity. All I needed was like, at least two or three revives and it take it over the hill. So revive Revind helped. I mean, I feel like that was the greatest, one of the greatest features that actually worked on a platform. Twitter, maybe. TikTok repost is not as effective as Vine.
- [39:25]
Benedict Townsend
Repost.
- [39:26]
Kenny Knox
Like, you can change somebody's life with a Revine dog. Like, I remember I had a homie. He was just real cool. In high school, my vine was so like, nuclear. At one point, I remember he said he wanted to start Vine. I revined like three vines. And he got to like 6,500 followers. And we grew up with each other. He had like 200 followers. And I was like, yo, he low key, funny. And I said, I'm gonna revine him to the morning. I revined like three of his vines. He. He woke up to like a thousand followers and I was like, damn, it was fun. It was just. I really just liked vine because of the community. This is considered stealing with content. If you're just straight up stealing cadences, you still need shot for shot. You stealing the concept, it's like you basically stealing their identity, they creative Social Security number. So it's just like if it this how it was on vine, if you put IB and you put they name in the caption, it was fair game. You paying homage.
- [40:23]
Benedict Townsend
IB by the way, stands for idea by or inspired by. And it's a little polite hat tip to acknowledge an original creator. Honestly, that's often all creators are looking for just a little bit of acknowledgement. It's a pretty low bar. But failing to reach that bar would not end well for you, especially on Vine.
- [40:41]
Kenny Knox
But if you stole somebody video on vine and you did not tag them, their audience will attack you. In the comics, they don't play that shit. They will get. They were like, yo, you stole this from Kenny.
- [40:52]
Benedict Townsend
For Brandon, the attitude turned from resentment to a sense of, well, if you can't beat them, join them.
- [40:58]
Brandon Calvillo
Yeah, I mean, it would kind of cannibalize like the popular page or whatever it is, because you got. You got twice the audience from doing that. I think that was wrong. But I do know that eventually everyone started to do it. Even the smaller creators started to do it because it was like, well, what.
- [41:15]
Benedict Townsend
Else could you do?
- [41:16]
Brandon Calvillo
I mean, everyone's doing it, so I mean, I think it was really taboo at some point. And I did it. I mean, I did it. I tried to do it only with people that I really liked and people that I thought were actually very funny. So I would want to revive them. But I started to do it because everyone was doing it, including the smaller creators. So I don't think it was a good thing. But I think eventually when everyone starts doing something that's like, not good, it kind of just becomes like, eh, whatever.
- [41:47]
Benedict Townsend
Pandora's box was open. And chaos, not the fun, spontaneous kind, but the slightly more scary kind, now reigned. The vine you knew, the scrappy underdog of. Of creativity that was gone, replaced by a ruthless, cutthroat ecosystem where survival meant playing the game. And for those who refused, well, the game played them. And as creators fought to outshine each other, their frustration started to shift to a much bigger vine itself.
- [42:18]
Kenny Knox
Vine is probably the best job and.
- [42:20]
Benedict Townsend
The worst job I'll ever have. But hey, it wasn't all bad. Unless you were a founder of vine because things were about to get really messy.
- [42:28]
Unnamed Narrator/Commentator (possibly a producer or researcher)
No one wanted to be broadcasting the truth about what was happening with the app.
- [42:32]
Benedict Townsend
Next time the Vine Mafia tightens its grip, creators turn against the empire and plot twist, the empire starts eating itself. Oh, and the app's leadership? Let's just say their six seconds at the top was running out and fast. It was a big hit to the.
- [42:48]
Chris Melburger
Company each time we lost the founder and I think it certainly changed the trajectory.
- [42:55]
Benedict Townsend
I hope you're still with us because this Marvel hasn't even hit the bucket yet. You can listen to vine six Seconds that Change the World on Global Player, download it from the App Store, or go to globalplayer.com vine 6 seconds that change the World is a Global original podcast created and hosted by me, Benedict Townsend and produced by my co creator Mary Goodheart. Narrative and creative by producer Kevia Cardoso, Score and sound design by Patrick Lee and mix by Chris James. Sophie Snelling is the Executive producer, Al Riddell is Head of Factual Podcasts and Vicky Etchels is Director of Podcasts at Global. This is a Global Player Original Podcast.