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The Free Press Investigates
A New Series From The Free Press | The Lindbergh Conspiracies (EP02)
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A
Before we dive in, for a very limited time, the Free Press is offering 20% off paid subscriptions. That means you can listen to all six episodes of the Lindbergh conspiracies right now ad free, without waiting. Head to th e f p.com to upgrade. Charles Lindbergh was not the world's friendliest guy.
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B
I think when it came to dealing with aircraft. He was probably a mechanical genius, but I don't think I'd like him.
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A
A genius, sure, but not a very nice person seems to be the unanimous opinion among Lindberghologists. He made his wife fly with him in those 1920 era planes when she was pregnant and had morning sickness. He played ridiculous practical jokes that no one else found funny, like putting ice down someone's back at a dinner party. In an effort to prevent his son from being coddled, he could be quite cruel. Little Lindy's nurse, Betty Gough was not allowed to pick him up if he started crying. Here's one of our Lindbergh experts, Jim Baum.
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B
He built a chicken wire pen in
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January of 1932 up in North Jersey, which gets very cold, and he put him in this pen outside for hours
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B
and nobody was allowed to go grab him. The kid was crying and he said,
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C
no, don't touch him.
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A
He was also a big proponent of the so called science of eugenics, which claims that people with superior genes, that is upper class white people, should only reproduce with others who shared the same race and class. Once, while driving us around to key locations, Jim Davidson put it even more bluntly.
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B
He just was an asshole. He was an awful person.
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Candace Fleming, in writing a biography of Lindbergh, found it unavoidable.
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D
I kept bumping up against Charles Lindbergh and Charles Lindbergh's very weird personality, right? He is a most unusual and unpleasant man.
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A
But this reality only became clear much, much later. If you read any account of Charles Lindbergh in the 1920s, you'll discover that there has never been, and I do mean never, an American hero or celebrity
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E
who even came close when he crossed the Atlantic. He was one of the first big new media stars in a world where there were radios, there were national daily newspapers, there were movie tone reels, things like that.
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This is our friend Nick Gillespie.
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He was a public figure in a way that couldn't have existed 10 years before. He was everywhere. He embodied Americanness and he was triumphant. A mixture of, you know, moxie and technology. And then the kidnapping, you know, helped to make him a tragic hero.
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A
But then came the rise of Hitler in the late 30s and the beginnings of World War II in the early
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D
40s, he becomes not that great hero that we thought he was in the 20s.
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A
You mean the fall. It comes about because he embraces the Nazis.
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D
Yes, he embraces the Nazis.
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The revelation that Lindbergh believes strongly in eugenics, along with the realism that he approved of the Nazis, has led some of the Lindbergh conspiracists to some pretty dark places. The darkest of all is the theory, more widespread than you'd think, that Charles Lindbergh may have somehow been involved in the death of his own son.
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F
I'll always believe Lindbergh did this. In some way was responsible.
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Could that really be possible? Foreign. I'm Joe Nocera and this is the Lindbergh Conspiracies from the Free Press. Episode 2 the Great Aviator. How many times did you take a flight last year myself? I've lost count, but, you know, it's gotta be 20, 30. And you know what? I don't even think about it. But it sure wasn't like that in the 1920s. One thing people tend to forget is that flying was really dangerous back then. Pilots died all the time. Air travel, the kind of air travel we take for granted today, it didn't exist. And though pilots promoted air travel back then by doing stunts at county fairs, the truth is, way too often the planes would crash.
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D
They did. Oh, yeah. The engine would just stop in mid flight.
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Candace Fleming.
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D
Or you'd land badly and the whole thing would just flip. Yeah. So it was unbelievably dangerous. And lots of people had tried to get across the Atlantic and had died in the process.
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U.S. men and women at the time, crossing the Atlantic was the Holy Grail of flight. If a pilot could pull it off, it would send a signal that flying was for real. Not just something for daredevils, but a genuine mode of travel. A wealthy hotel magnate offered a reward of $25,000 to anyone who flew non stop from New York to Paris. That's the equivalent of 4, $450,000 today. And a handful of flyers who are either brave or foolhardy or both took the bait. Lindbergh was one of them. He was 25 years old.
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D
It also helped that the end of the 1920s and we've had this decade of excess and what many Americans thought was immorality. And here comes this wholesome, handsome, seemingly moral young man who kind of drops literally, for a lot of Americans, literally sort of dropped out of the sky and ended up as part of that Race to get from New York to Paris.
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Imagine Roosevelt Field, early in the morning of May 20, 1927. It's a large dirt airstrip on Long island that the military used to train pilots during World War I. The early morning air is charged with anticipation and excitement. Spectators have arrived to see Lindbergh's historic departure, but they're outnumbered by all the journalists and photographers swarming the field. Their flashbulbs are popping as they capture every moment of this groundbreaking event. Lindbergh stands next to his aircraft, The Spirit of St. Louis, named after his spirit, the St. Louis Chamber of Commerce he poses briefly for the photographers, his face set in a determined expression. The single engine monoplane, sleek and silver, gleams under the rising sun. They didn't have TV cameras back then, of course, but here's Jimmy Stewart starring as Lindbergh in the 1957 film the Spirit of St. Louis. It was directed by Billy Wilder.
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Well, I guess I might as well go.
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Limberg designed and built the plane himself and flies it alone. And there's something about that solo American hero doing this unbelievable feat. Everybody thought Lindbergh was going to die when it happened.
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That's author Tom Daugherty, who wrote a great book about Lindbergh and his relationship to the press.
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Like all the experienced pilots, they said, yeah, this kid is very courageous. He has a lot of moxie. We really appreciate it and it's really a shame he's going to die in the cold Atlantic when he attempts to do this.
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But of course, he didn't die.
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E
Now, for most of us, we can probably think of a generational moment that we all universally experienced because of the media say, for my generation, it would have been in the Kennedy assassination. For another generation, the Challenger 9 11, January 6th, that you're kind of glued to the set, experiencing something. For a prolonged period of time,
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radio was relatively new and it allowed people to follow this incredible event in real time. It was an experience they'd never known before.
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So Lindbergh takes off March 21, Friday morning, and for the next 33 and a half hours, people are riveted to the news. Now, we don't have radio in the home yet, but we do have shortwave communication and a lot of major, you know, department stores and things have radio. So we are getting instantaneous updates about Lindbergh. So he takes off, he flies over Newfoundland and then he's. He disappears for basically 18 hours until he's spotted off the coast of Ireland. And that anticipation all through Friday, there are all these accounts of you know, as sports arenas, they stop the fight so everybody can stand up and say a prayer for Lindbergh. Theater productions are stopped so people can remember Lindbergh. American families all across the nation are saying a prayer for Lindbergh at dinner. And so when he lands in Paris, everybody feels this sense of participation and this sense of joy. And then he proves to be, you know, 25 years old, handsome, dignified, modest.
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He landed at Le Bourget Field in Paris at 10:22pm on the 21st. During his 30 plus hours in the air, he'd flown 3,800 miles. He hadn't slept in 55 hours. As the news spread that Lindbergh would be landing that afternoon, an estimated 150 people flock to the airport to watch his descent. As the Spirit of St. Louis approaches, the crowd's excitement builds to a fever pitch. The plane touches down on the Runway, its wheels kicking up dust. People cheer. They wave flags. They open champagne. Well, of course they do with France. Lindbergh, exhausted but triumphant, taxis the plane to a halt amid a single sea of flashing cameras and clapping hands. And he instantly becomes the most famous, the most beloved man in the world.
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E
So he's this ascendant, beloved character that united people in a way that is very difficult to think of today. I don't know if we ever in the 20th century had a character that the public so universally and so rapturously embraced.
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After he returned home, Lindbergh toured 82 cities in all of the then 48 states with ticker tape parades and keys to the city and speeches to adoring crowds. President Calvin Coolidge awarded him the Medal of Honor and a Distinguished Flying Cross. He served as a paid consultant to transcontinental air transport in Pan Am and as an unpaid consultant to the US Government. He was in constant demand. Why do you think it was such a big deal that he crossed the Atlantic, that he was the first to cross the Atlantic?
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He really symbolized for Americans. He really symbolized this idea of American exceptionalism.
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That's Candace Fleming again.
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The fact that we had. Americans had conquered science and technology and had flown across the Atlantic, which to many people was still sort of mysterious. And they, a lot of people, particularly pastors and reverends across the country and churches, actually preached that he was, you know, like, of God. God had given him this amazing gift to fly across the Atlantic. So he really represented so much more than just a guy that did a stunt flight across the Atlantic.
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The press, of course, couldn't get enough of him. The word paparazzi hadn't been coined yet, but everywhere he went, photographers were there hoping to take an unguarded photo or get him to answer an off the cuff question. There are celebrities who can handle being followed everywhere they go, but Charles Lindbergh was not one of them. He actually despised the attention. Unfortunately for him, he was also a handsome bachelor, which meant that the press interest in who he might marry was insane.
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So what's the question? We all have ladies, who is this handsome young man going to marry? Right, the prince of the age who's going to be his princess. And then a couple of years later, he picks Anne Morrow, who is the very smart, pretty daughter of a wealthy politician and businessman. And I think it says something about Lindbergh that he picks Anne because she was a very serious woman, brilliant woman in her own right, who becomes his co pilot and navigator.
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Once reporters learned that he was dating Ann Morrow, they followed the couple everywhere, including their wedding and their honeymoon. In many ways, Ann Morrow couldn't have been more different from her husband. She was petite, shy, intellectual, warm hearted and moody. As one author described her, she was a sophisticated woman who'd grown up in a wealthy household. He, by contrast, was basically a rube who'd been raised on a small farm in Minnesota. He met her in Mexico City, where her father, Dwight was the American ambassador to Mexico. And he wooed her in part by taking her flying with him. She found it thrilling. Tell us a little bit about what
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their marriage was like, their early marriage. Anne definitely wanted to marry a hero, so she looked at him sort of wide eyed, believed he could do no wrong, believed he could always stay in control. He always was in control, matter of fact. But she was okay with that because she really believed that he always knew what was right and he could get things done. And she did what he told her to do. So Anne Morrow becomes an exceptional pilot in her own right because Lindbergh wants her to be a flying partner. He expects her to be this sort of partner, not just a woman who's going to stay home with their kids, which would have been the traditional role, but he wants her actually co piloting, navigating in those airplanes with him, because he expects to do far more flights than just across the Atlantic.
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Charles and Anne wanted a big family and they wasted no time. Married in May 1929, Charles Jr. Little Lindy was born 13 months later in June of 1930. He was instantly the light of his mother's life. Of course, here is Ann describing her little boy in a letter to her mother.
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In law, the baby can wind up your music box by himself. He's more interested in the elephant and says something that sounds like elephants. But he still prefers the gray pussycat with a flat tail to take to bed at night.
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Ann wrote that letter in January 1932. The next letter she wrote to her mother in law was on March 2. Its purpose was much, much sadder. To give her some details of that awful event of March 1, when her precious baby was kidnapped, and also to give her some hope.
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The detectives are very optimistic, though they think it will take time and patience. In fact, they think the kidnappers have gotten themselves into a terrible jam. So much pressure, such a close net over the country, such sympathy for us and the widespread publicity, every police force on its mettle, that their one hope is to get the baby back unharmed.
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Anne Merle Lindbergh wasn't the only one who believed her husband was always right. So did Norman Schwarzkopf, the head of the New Jersey State Police, who was in charge of the investigation. Except he wasn't in charge. Incredibly, Charles Lindbergh was in charge of investigating the kidnapping of his own son. On every decision that needed to be made, Schwarzkopf deferred to the great aviator. You may recall that one of the first things Lindbergh told Schwarzkopf was that he had such complete trust in every member of his household staff that they could not be questioned as if they were suspects. And Schwarzkopf agreed.
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You know what I find crazy about this, Jo, is if we look at modern cases, it's so in the opposite in the sense that JonBenet's parents, number one suspect, anytime a kid goes missing now, you look at the parents.
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A
Well, I think it goes well beyond that. I mean, if you want to understand why so many people think that Lindbergh may have been involved, it's because he was putting himself in charge of the investigation, and he was sealing the police off from all these potential areas to investigate. And, you know, in addition, you know, there's always been beliefs that somebody on the inside must have played a role. And it's hard to imagine that Lindbergh himself didn't have those thoughts, even if he wasn't involved. And yet there he was, not letting the cops do their job. And you just sort of think, why?
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I
I'm gonna put one note in defense of Lindbergh, though. If you believe he's innocent. He's a father out of his mind, in grief and worry. He's also arrogant, so he thinks he can do a better job, but also the cops were a new invention. It wasn't like he necessarily thought these men really knew what they were doing. And he probably thought he could do a better job. So there's. And he also probably didn't want to think that the people in his own household were involved. He did trust these people and he felt a responsibility to them.
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As the weeks went by, one especially aggressive investigator, Harry Walsh, did start to suspect that a maid who worked for the Lindbergh's in laws in Inglewood might have played a role. Her name was Violet Sharp. She was young, British, unmarried, and given that she was working for a cultured, wealthy family, perhaps a little too carefree for her own good. Waltz was a Jersey City cop so out of Schwarzkopf's control. And he didn't just interrogate people, Harry Waltz browbeat them. In a series of increasingly hostile interviews, Waltz caught Violet in a handful of lies. The gist of it was that she was out on the town the night before the kidnapping. At first, she told Walt she'd gone to the movies with three people she'd just met, one of whom was her date. In fact, she'd gone to a speakeasy. Walt thought she might have tipped someone off that night. Here's Richard Cahill.
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She lied about where she was because she didn't want to admit, as a servant of a prominent family, that she went with a man she barely knew to a speakeasy. It would have been a major scandal for her and it could have cost her her job.
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With each interview, she became increasingly distraught. When she learned that Walt was coming to interrogate her for a fourth time, she screamed, I won't go.
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I won't, I won't.
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She ran up to her room where she had some cyanide. That's not as strange as you might think. Women in the 1920s sometimes used it to delouse their clothes. Sharp swallowed it and died within minutes. In the immediate aftermath of her death, Waltz was widely criticized for having treated her so harshly. All these years later, her suicide has caused any number of modern day investigators to conclude that she was involved in the kidnapping. Author Richard Cahill, however, is not one of them.
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G
If you were a poor servant in those days and you worked for a prominent family, scandal like that could ruin you because no other prominent family would take you. Violet Sharp was just another victim of the Lindbergh kidnapping. Not directly, but certainly indirectly. She had nothing to do with it.
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So the police investigation, how would you summarize it?
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That's my producer, Poppy, doing a little interrogating of her own with Jim Davidson.
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I
I mean, it's very unusual that Lindbergh was the in charge of it, but it was the 1930s, so how do we put it in context? Like, was it particularly bad or was that just the best they could do?
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B
Well, I don't think it was the best they could do because first of all, we have Lindbergh running the investigation up until they find the body. And there were lots of clues. And in Laura Zavata's book, the Great Lindbergh Hullabaloo, she talks about all these reporters are in Hopewell. They start going out and they're finding all of these clues.
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Laura Vitray was a reporter for the New York Evening Journal who covered the kidnapping and wrote a quickie book about it before the baby's body had even been found. She was the first conspiracist. When you get right down to it, she thought the kidnapping was nothing but a hoax.
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B
And they reported the state police and the state police never investigate them. And there are, like, dozens of clues that popped up that the state police never investigated. Now, is that because Lindbergh told them not to? I don't know.
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So what did Lindbergh and the state police focus on? The main issue, of course, was on getting the baby back. Lindbergh had a trusted confidant named Henry Breckenridge. Breckenridge knew someone who was connected to the mob, and he brokered a meeting between Lindbergh and two mobsters who offered to help find the child. After speaking with them, Lindbergh wrote a letter authorizing them to act as a go between. In one of his most boneheaded moves, and trust me, there were many, he actually gave the mobsters a copy of the ransom note. Think about that for a second. The wording of the ransom note, its spelling mistakes, the amount of money the kidnappers were demanding. It was no longer a secret. Others who saw it would be able to copy it and pretend to be the kidnappers in the hopes of tricking Lindbergh into giving them the ransom money. J. Edgar Hoover, who was keeping a close eye on the case, was appalled. And that wasn't all he was upset about. Less than four months earlier, Al Capone had been convicted of tax evasion. Not surprisingly, Capone claimed that he could get the Lindbergh baby back, but of course, he'd have to cut a deal to stay out of prison first.
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B
Supposedly, he cooked up this scheme to kidnap the Lindbergh baby and tell the authorities he could get the kid back if he could get out of jail. And the day after the kidnapping his lieutenants met at Lindbergh house and said, you know, we can probably get your baby back, but Al's going to have to have some freedom to get around and interact with all these other gangs. And Lindbergh contacted the federal government about it. And who does he deal with but Elmer Airy?
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Airy was a Treasury Department investigator who had played a key role in Capone's tax evasion conviction.
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And he says there's no way he's going to get out of jail.
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A few days after the kidnapping, a second ransom note arrived. This one demanded $70,000 up from the original 50,000. Like the first note, it was written in broken English and had that strange little circular symbol at the bottom.
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Dear sir, we have warned you not to make anything public. Also notify the police. Now you have to take consequences. Means we will have to hold the baby until everything is quiet. We can note make any appointments just now. We know very well what it means to us. It is really necessary to make a world affair out of this or to get your baby back as soon as possible. To settle those affair in a quick way will be better for both. Don't be afraid about the baby keeping care of us day and night. We also will feed him according to the diet. We are interested to send him back in good health. And ransom was made hours for $50,000. But now we have to take another person to it and probably have to keep the baby for a longer time as we expected. So the amount will be 70,000, 20,000 in fifty dollar bills, $25,000 in twenty dollar bills, $15,000 in ten dollar bills and 10,000 in five dollar bills. Don't mark any bills or take them from one serial nomer. We will form you later where to deliver the money, but we will not do so until the police is out of the case and the papers are quiet. The kidnapping we prepared in years, so we are prepared for everyding.
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A
And who did Lindbergh give it to? Not the state police? No, he gave it to his mobster middlemen. Let me tell you a little something by the way, about the mob and the kidnapping. The kidnapping was actually costing the mob money because vehicles were being stopped as the police searched for the baby. And though the cops obviously didn't find little Lindy, they did find plenty of illegal booze. It was the tail end of Prohibition and the Lindbergh kidnapping had become an occupational hazard. A few days later a third note showed up, this one going directly to BRECKENRIDGE Dear sir.
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C
Mr. Condon may act as go between. You may give him the $70,000. We have notified you already. In what kind of bills? We warn you not to set any trap in any way. If you or someone else will notify the police, there will be a further delay. After we have the money in hand, we will tell you where to find your boy. You may have a airplane ready. It is about 150 miles away. But before telling you the address, a delay of eight hours will be between.
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With each passing day, Lindbergh became increasingly desperate. He attended a seance. He continued to play footsie with mobsters even after it was clear to everyone else they had no idea where the baby was. Ransom notes kept arriving, meetings at all hours and the mail just poured in. In the letter to her mother in law, Ann said that the state police had sorted the letters by subject matter.
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12,000, 11,500, 9,500 5,000. Isn't it surprising the number of people who have written their dreams to us? Also the demands for money have been very shocking. The number of people who say if we will hand over such and such an amount, they will deliver the child.
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On March 8, a new character walked onto the stage. A blustery, voluble, narcissistic retired school principal named John F. Condon. Myself, I would describe him pretty simply. He was a big bullshitter. 72 years old. Condon lived in the Bronx and he called himself Jaffsee. John F. Condon, say Jaffsee. By the time it was over, he had become as much a part of the kidnapping story as Lindbergh himself. Which everyone agrees is exactly how he wanted it. Opinions about him, I have to say, are pretty much unanimous. Do you think John Condon was a flim flam man? I mean, I don't.
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D
I think John Condon was just a goof.
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G
He was very self important and wanted to be involved in everything.
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That's Richard Cahill again.
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G
And then of course, once it was revealed, he was the go between. I think he loved the media attention and he reveled in it.
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A
Seven days into the kidnapping, Lindbergh had given up on the mob and was looking for a new go between. Someone who truly had a line to the kidnappers and could negotiate the release of his son. Inexplicably, almost absurdly, Condon became that trusted intermediary. He did it by writing a letter to his local paper, the Bronx Home News, in its utter pomposity condition. The letter was classic Condon. And the editors of the Home News couldn't resist putting it on the front page.
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J
With a view to assisting the brave colonel and his devoted wife, Mrs. Lindbergh to bring back to her bosom the tender offspring with busting arms around her neck with his little fingers, causing the joy which offers no parallel in the world and which only a mother can experience, I make an offer to the kidnappers. In addition to the $50,000 offered by the Colonel, I offer $1,000, which I have saved from my salary if the one who handed the colonel's son out of the window to the man on the ladder will go to a Catholic priest and confess his or her transgression, giving the child unharmed to any priest whom the kidnapper will name. I stand ready in person at my own expense to go anywhere alone on land or water to give the kidnappers the extra money and promise never to utter his name to anyone.
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A
Here's another one of those weirdly suspicious things. It appears that the kidnappers, or at least the people who claim to be the kidnappers read the Bronx Home News. Who knew? Because the following night Condon found an envelope from the kidnappers although, honestly, who could say if they were the real kidnappers telling him to get the money from Lindbergh and put three words in an ad in a different newspaper, the New York American. Once he succeeded, the three words were money is ready, spelled M O N Y I S R E D Y. Inside the envelope was a second envelope intended for Lindbergh alone. It said that they, the kidnappers, had authorized Condon to be their go between. Once Lindbergh saw That letter, at 3am on March 10, after Condon drove to Hopewell he agreed to work through this man he'd never met before. It is impossible to know whether Jassy had actually intended to be the intermediary in his original letter to the Bronx Home News. He never makes that offer. But once it happened, he embraced the role with gusto. The old narcissist was at the center of everything and he could not have been happier. Here's Poppy talking to Richard Cahill.
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I
I do want to ask you about Condon. Japsy is the most infuriating, annoying, red herring kind of person in the whole thing, no doubt. What do you make of him? Is he just a chancellor who wheedled his way into the case? How do we deal with him?
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G
Oh, God. How long do you have? Here's the thing with Condon. People say, oh, he wrote to become a go between. No, he didn't. That is not what he wrote. When you look at the actual letter he sent, he sent to a local publication called the Bronx Home News. People say, why did he pick that local publication? Is it because he knew that the kidnapper would see it? No, he knew the editor and he knew his letter would get in there. Whereas if he wrote to the bigger ones, it might not. And his actual letter that he wrote, he idolized Lindbergh. Great man like Lindbergh has to resort to speaking with gangsters. And he got all worked up.
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A
And the reason Lindbergh trusted him, that letter in the second envelope also had the strange symbol at the bottom, the one that was on the original ransom note.
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G
So Condon was the only one who claimed to be in contact with the kidnappers that got a note with that symbol. There's a lot of other ones that, you know that came forward and they were cranks, but he had the note that had the symbol. So as a result, whether he believed him or whether he thought that he was in on it with the kid and whatever, Lindbergh had no choice but to go along with the guy because that symbol made it pretty clear that he was talking to the right people or person.
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I
Okay, this Jaffsy drives me completely bananas because it's on one level it's really suspicious that he puts it in the Bronx News and then lo and behold, someone responds that's reading that. Cause it's otherwise too much of a coincidence. But it also could mean Jassy's involved, that it was planned from the beginning.
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A
And there are certainly people who believe that, as we will get to Shortly, he's a 72 year old man who's really not the brightest bulb. So I have a hard time thinking that he was involved. But there are various theories that put him at the center of the whole kidnapping. With Jaffsi on the scene, the action now moves to a cemetery in the Bronx, or rather to two cemeteries where he meets with the man he believes is the kidnapper. These meetings will later become the focus of enormous scrutiny. The prosecutors will use them to help send Bruno Hauptman to the electric chair. But the modern day skeptics will point to those same meetings to show that Bruno's trial had been a sham. The first meeting took place on March 12th in Woodlawn Cemetery, which was and is New York's upscale burial ground for the famous and powerful. Yes, New York has upscale burial grounds. According to Condon, and as prone to exaggeration as he was, this is the only version we have. He and the kidnapper sat on a bench and talked calmly for an hour and ten minutes the man called himself John. So of course the newspapers quickly dubbed him Cemetery John. He told Condon that the baby was still alive, that he and others had spent a year planning the crime and that others the newspapers had fingered as possible suspects, like Betty Gough, had nothing to do with it. Jaffsy claimed he admonished the kidnapper for raising the ransom demand by $20,000. Cemetery John agreed to send the baby's sleeping clothes as proof that little Lindy was still alive. Sure enough, a sleeping suit was soon delivered. Of course, it could have been just one that they'd seen in a photograph and then bought in a store. There was a lag of about three weeks between the two meetings. In another letter to her mother in law, Ann Merle Lindbergh attributed the delay to the non stop tabloid scrutiny.
- [35:47]
H
The Herald Tribune had a good short editorial by Walter Littman called Let Lindbergh alone, quoting Charles statement about feeling that he did not have to report every action of his and that he should be left free to carry on his actions privately. The Herald Tribune and the Times and others have been very good. But the tabloids, I believe, have cost us this terrible delay in waiting. And we don't know what in the future, I think such papers are really criminal.
- [36:16]
A
The second meeting took place at St. Raymond's Cemetery, a sprawling grounds near the East River. This meeting, and again it's only Jaffsy's account, was much briefer. Condon said that he handed Cemetery John a small box with $50,000 in it, not the $70,000 the kidnapper had demanded. Nonetheless, Cemetery John grabbed the box and without waiting to count the money, ran off into the woods. He promised to share details of how the baby would be returned. The Lindberghs would just have to be patient. Although Jassy failed to retrieve the child, he emerged with a tale for the ages which he told and retold in various permutations till the end of his days. Of course, as was always the case with Condon, one question lingered. Was any of it true?
- [37:09]
E
If you believe that Haltmann is guilty, you basically have to believe Condon is who he says he is, which is just this impartial party who comes out of nowhere to become a principal player in the case. Meeting the kidnapper in one cemetery one night and then a little later meeting the kidnapper again in another cemetery. Which is again this kind of like motion picture detail, you know, like sure, we're meeting in a cemetery, you know. What is this, Frankenstein?
- [37:37]
F
Oh, I'm so excited. To be here. I can't believe it.
- [37:42]
A
That's when Elle Delmont, the woman who used to run the popular website the Lindbergh kidnapping Hoax and who was convinced that Lindbergh was somehow involved in his son's kidnapping, Poppy and I met up with her as well as ex cop Greg Algren when we made our own visit to St. Raymond's over the years, the cemetery has grown considerably. But the main difference between now and when Jaffe met Cemetery John is that you can't just walk into it anymore. The best we could do was peer through a big grated fence.
- [38:15]
F
Lindbergh put Hauptman in the electric chair. There's no. No two ways to look at it.
- [38:20]
A
Here's another one of those crucial details that the Lindbergh conspiracists delight in. The great aviator actually went to the cemetery with Condon. But while Jaffse went to meet Cemetery John, Lindbergh stayed in the car. The car was parked right around the corner, not far from the cemetery, but not right next to it either. This is Robert Zorn. Now, Lindbergh was in a car, catty corner to St. Raymond's Cemetery where the second meeting took place. Okay, and it's from within that cemetery he heard a voice yelling, hey, Doc. Hey, Doc. Okay, that was Cemetery John shouting to Condon as Jaffsy approached. Supposedly he spoke in a German accent. During Haltman's trial, Lindbergh would claim that he was absolutely sure, positive that it was Haltman's voice he had heard saying, hey, Doc. Hey, Doc. And so two and a half years later, he's identifying that as having been Houtman's voice. It's positively ridiculous. Here's where Nell again.
- [39:32]
F
But even if you heard a sound, even if you did hear, could you sound say for sure that was the voice of the man on trial? He's a liar.
- [39:41]
A
Now, Greg Algren, the retired cop who went to the cemetery with us, he's more agnostic about who did it, though he's convinced that no one person could have done it alone. Here's his insight as a former police investigator. An eyewitness identification is unreliable. Not because they're lying. It's not because they have a financial interest, not because they're part of conspiracies will go up the bank. It's just unreliable.
- [40:05]
F
I don't believe any of it's true. I don't believe there was a Cemetery John. This is ridiculous. The whole thing is cuckoo.
- [40:12]
A
Poppy and I tried a little experiment. Oh, you'll yell to me And I won't be able to hear. I went to the spot where Lindbergh had sat in the car while Poppy stood by the cemetery gate pretending to be Jaffsy. There's no possible way.
- [40:29]
F
There you go.
- [40:30]
A
No possible way. I don't care if it was the dead of night and there were no other cars around and there was no noise. It can't be done. It's not possible.
- [40:40]
F
And even if you can hear some voice, you can never say whose it is. You can never say it was a foreign voice. They've proven it. There are articles in law journals about this. But even if you could is my point. Would you put a man in the electric chair on that testimony? You couldn't. It's not. And three years later.
- [41:04]
A
So did Lindbergh lie about hearing a German voice or hearing any voice? And if so, why did Condon exaggerate the account? Just to make himself seem more important or to help his hero somehow? Or was he in on the whole thing? Was this a setup? There are modern day investigators who are convinced that it absolutely was. Can you see why these events have spawned a dozen conspiracies? Author Thomas Dougherty says the cemetery and Condon are ground zero for the various theories about the kidnapping.
- [41:44]
E
You have to to believe Condon is who he says he is, to believe that Houtman is the killer. Now if Condon is somehow in on the case, then that whole scenario goes astray.
- [41:55]
A
In the next episode, they arrest their man, Bruno Hoffman. They finally nab someone for the kidnapping and murder of Charles Lindbergh Jr. And when they raid his house, what's written on the inside of his closet? The phone number of John F. Condon.