HTDE: Yes We Pecan, with Martha Stewart

Summary

Episode Summary: "HTDE: Yes We Pecan, with Martha Stewart"

In this engaging episode of How to Do Everything, hosted by NPR's Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!, Peter Sagal, along with producers Mike Danforth and Ian Shillag, delves into the perennial debate over the correct pronunciation of the word "pecan." Featuring guest appearances by renowned lifestyle guru Martha Stewart and Ojibwe linguist Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan, the episode combines humor, expert insights, and intriguing stories to offer listeners a comprehensive exploration of language, culture, and innovative problem-solving.

---

1. The Pecan Pronunciation Debate

Timestamp: [01:02]

The episode kicks off with a listener's query about the correct pronunciation of "pecan," a staple in Thanksgiving meals. Alexa, a caller, shares her experience of encountering varying pronunciations among her Texan roommates:

Alexa [01:04]: "My mother is a born and raised Texan. Was taught from a very young age that the proper pronunciation of a certain nut is pecan and not pecan... And I recently moved in with some new roommates in New York, two of which are from Texas. And I assumed they would also understand the importance of the pronunciation of pecan. And one of them does. However, the other does not."

Timestamp: [03:01]

To shed light on this debate, Martha Stewart joins the conversation. She shares her pronunciation preferences and acknowledges the regional variations:

Martha Stewart [03:34]: "Pecan. Not very Southern, because I have a lot of Southern friends and they all say pecan, and mine's pecan. You know, pecan is not pecan. I don't say pecan."

Stewart emphasizes the influence of familial and regional backgrounds on pronunciation, leading to a mix of "pecan" and "puh-KAN" pronunciations.

Timestamp: [05:20]

Bringing an academic perspective, Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan discusses the linguistic roots of "pecan," tracing it back to the Ojibwe language:

Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan [05:38]: "Right on. I thought you'd never asked. So we say bagon. Bagon? Yeah. So we spell it in Ojibwe, we spell it with a bag. Now, being that Europeans call it a pecan, I'd say would be the closest in the colloquial English that matches an indigenous pronunciation."

He clarifies that while "bagon" is the original pronunciation, "pecan" serves as an Anglicized version, bridging indigenous and English-speaking communities.

Timestamp: [07:10]

Dr. Sullivan humorously comments on the evolution of pronunciation:

Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan [07:14]: "Bogan is where we were going for."

He underscores the importance of understanding and respecting linguistic diversity without becoming overly prescriptive.

---

2. Language Inclusivity: The "You Guys" Fast

Timestamp: [08:21]

Transitioning from linguistics, the hosts address their own linguistic habits, specifically the use of the phrase "you guys." Acknowledging its exclusivity, Mike Danforth and Ian Shillag embark on a "you guys fast," striving to eliminate the term from their vocabulary. They candidly discuss their challenges and encourage listeners to join them in adopting more inclusive language alternatives.

Mike Danforth [09:00]: "So both of us would like to stop saying it. So we're going to establish a little accountability. We're going to do a. You guys fast. And you people out there, we'd love for you to join."

The segment highlights the broader movement towards gender-neutral language and the hosts' personal commitment to fostering inclusivity.

---

3. Innovative Solutions: Illuminating Viganella with a Giant Mirror

Timestamp: [13:35]

Shifting gears, the episode presents an inspiring story from the picturesque town of Viganella, Italy. Pier Franco Modale, alongside his daughter Fabiola, recounts the town's ingenious solution to prolonged darkness during winter months:

Pier Franco Modale [14:37]: "They decided to build this giant mirror 40 square meters at the top of the mountain opposite the village to reflect the sun directly on the village. It's 1 km far from the village, on the top of the mountain."

This monumental mirror, spanning 40 square meters, captures and reflects sunlight onto Viganella, transforming the town's winter doldrums into periods of artificial daylight. While the mirror doesn't provide warmth, its ability to illuminate the village square has had a profound impact on the community's morale and daily life.

Pier Franco Modale [15:12]: "It doesn't warm up. It's simply. Yeah, it's sunny, it's light."

The initiative, initially met with skepticism, exemplifies human creativity in addressing environmental and social challenges. Pier Franco reflects on the community's journey from doubt to embracing the unprecedented solution:

Pier Franco Modale [16:30]: "Even before the construction of the mirror, lots of people were skeptical about it. They didn't believe that it would be possible to build such an invention."

---

4. Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Timestamp: [17:32]

As the episode nears its conclusion, Mike and Ian reflect humorously on the Viganella mirror project, contemplating whimsical scenarios like animals using the mirror or unexpected interruptions caused by wildlife.

Mike Danforth [17:38]: "I think that mirror also up on top of the mountain. It's useful for any of the animals that need to see how they look."

Their lighthearted banter underscores the episode's blend of informative content and entertainment, leaving listeners with both knowledge and a smile.

---

Final Takeaway

This episode of How to Do Everything masterfully intertwines discussions on language pronunciation, cultural inclusivity, and innovative community solutions. Through expert interviews and captivating storytelling, listeners are encouraged to appreciate linguistic diversity, strive for inclusive communication, and embrace creative problem-solving in the face of challenges.

Transcript

[Capella University]

This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu.

[Peter Sagal]

Hey guys, it's Peter here with another episode of how to Do Everything, hosted by Wait Wait producers Mike Danforth and Ian Shillag. This week, just ahead of Thanksgiving, the guys ring up hospitality icon Martha Stewart to help a listener pronounce the word that is spelled P, E, C, A, n, so popular in your Thanksgiving meals. Now, I, Peter Sagal, pronounce it like almond. Almond. But, you know, whatever. Martha probably has more authority on this topic than me. Now, if you like what you hear, make sure to get out of this feed and go over and follow them on their own how to Do Everything feed now. Now enjoy the latest episode of how to Do Everything.

[Mike Danforth]

What can we help you with, Alexa?

[Alexa]

So, okay. My mother is a born and raised Texan. Was taught from a very young age that the proper pronunciation of a certain nut is pecan and not pecan. And this is important because the state nutrition of Texas is the pecan. And I recently moved in with some new roommates in New York, two of which are from Texas. And I assumed they would also understand the importance of the pronunciation of pecan. And one of them does. However, the other does not.

[Ian Shillag]

So your roommates, one says pecan and the other roommate, both from Texas, the other roommate says pecan?

[Alexa]

Yes.

[Mike Danforth]

Have you ever been corrected? Have you ever said pecan and somebody corrected you?

[Alexa]

No, but I am quick to make my feelings known if someone says the other pronunciation.

[Ian Shillag]

It does. Almost. I'm just going to say this, Alexa, you almost sound like you might be a little bit pedantic when it comes to pecans. I mean, the fact that you're throwing out it is the state nut.

[Alexa]

I wasn't until I moved in with Texans because my belief was that every Texan knew the correct pronunciation and I could be forgiving about other people from other states where the state nut is not a pecan. But it's now come to my realization that some Texans are wrong.

[Mike Danforth]

Yeah, yeah, you do keep calling it the correct pronunciation. What is your question then?

[Alexa]

I should roll it back. My question is what is the correct pronunciation? And I will surrender if I am proven wrong.

[Ian Shillag]

I think, yeah, it sounds like your question is right. This is how to do everything. I'm Mike.

[Mike Danforth]

And I'm Ian. On today's show, how to light up the dark winter days. But first, to Alexa's pecan. Pecan question.

[Ian Shillag]

Now, when I make pecan pie, I use Martha Stewart's recipe.

[Mike Danforth]

It's the gold standard.

[Ian Shillag]

Martha, are you there?

[Alexa]

Hi, Mike. And you have Martha Stewart on the line.

[Ian Shillag]

Hello, Martha.

[Martha Stewart]

Good morning.

[Mike Danforth]

Okay, Martha Stewart, how do you pronounce P, E, C, A, N?

[Martha Stewart]

Pecan.

[Ian Shillag]

Pecan.

[Martha Stewart]

Pecan.

[Ian Shillag]

Okay.

[Martha Stewart]

Not very Southern, because I have a lot of Southern friends and they all say pecan, and mine's pecan. You know, pecan is not pecan. I don't say pecan.

[Mike Danforth]

If someone does say pecan, do you correct them or do you just accept absolutely not.

[Martha Stewart]

But my granddaughter does.

[Ian Shillag]

Oh, how does she cut. How does she correct them to consistently? Pecan. Yeah. Okay.

[Martha Stewart]

And she's 13. And. And you have to, you know, you have to. Then you have to look it up with her. And. Oh, God, it's so annoying. People say tomato. Tomato. You know, who knows?

[Ian Shillag]

Do people really say tomato?

[Martha Stewart]

Oh, yes. I have lots of friends who say tomato. One of my aunts used to say tomato, but she's not around anymore.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah, okay.

[Martha Stewart]

She. She probably died early because she said tomato.

[Ian Shillag]

Well, Martha, thank you so much for helping us out today. This has been great.

[Martha Stewart]

You're welcome.

[Ian Shillag]

Martha's new book is her 100th book. It's 100 favorite recipes, lessons and stories from My kitchen.

[Mike Danforth]

You know, there may be an even higher authority than Martha Stewart to ask about this.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

An.

[Ian Shillag]

Hello, Dr. Sullivan.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Hey, how you doing?

[Ian Shillag]

Pretty good.

[Mike Danforth]

Where are we reaching you?

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Right now I'm at Lacudre Ojibwe reservation in northern Wisconsin, about one hour south of Lake Superior.

[Ian Shillag]

Dr. Michael McGeesy Sullivan is an Ojibwe linguist at El C Ojibwe University in Wisconsin.

[Mike Danforth]

So, Dr. Sullivan, we understand this word has its roots in the Ojibwe language. Is that right?

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Yeah, I think the general sort of agreed upon assumption is that it derives from an Algonkian language, which is the bigger family to belongs.

[Mike Danforth]

Okay, in that language, how do you pronounce this word?

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Right on. I thought you'd never asked. So we say bagon. Bagon? Yeah. So we spell it in Ojibwe, we spell it with a bag. Now, being that Europeans call it a pecan, I'd say would be the closest in the colloquial English that matches an indigenous pronunciation.

[Mike Danforth]

So the kind of most correct would be bagan. But if you were forced to accept an Anglicized version of the word, pecan would be better than pecan.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Yes, very much so. Yeah. Well, one thing, you know, as a linguist Sometimes linguists are kind of like language police.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

I'm not really one of them. You know, like languages beautiful in all of its variation. Right. So if there's multiple pronunciations of this, like the tomato, tomahto kind of debate, you know, people say whatever. So I don't even really engage in being the correct. But if somebody wanted to be historically correct or cared.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Right. Then bagan would be the proper pronunciation. Pecan. Sounds really American to me.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah, that's okay. So maybe Alexis should know that she could tell her roommates that Dr. Sullivan is laughing at you when you say pecan.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Yeah, there you go. Yep. Yep. You sound really Anglo when you say pecan.

[Ian Shillag]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Bagan is where we were going for.

[Mike Danforth]

So as somebody who cares about this language, these languages, if you're, you know, if you are faced with a pie with these nuts, are you like, oh, thank you for the bagan pie, or do you say pecan pie when we speak English?

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

You mean?

[Ian Shillag]

Sure.

[Mike Danforth]

Yeah. Well, yeah, if you're.

[Capella University]

If you're.

[Mike Danforth]

I guess if you're hanging with Anglos.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Yeah, I would probably. If I was hanging with Anglos and it was in the English speaking setting. Pacan, Pa Can. I'd probably say pa. Conn. I'd probably use the English pronunciation just to fit in, but. But I might launch into a sort of teachable moment. Right. Eating my pecan pie with other Anglos. Yeah. Definite teachable moment.

[Ian Shillag]

Well, Dr. Sullivan, thank you so much for talking to us about this.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

Yeah. Sounds like a really, really cool, fun show, man. I think I might have to tune in, so keep up the Good work.

[Mike Danforth]

Michael McGeezy. Sullivan's book is Plums or Ojibwe Stories of Anishinaabe. I want to do something here which is. I have tried over the past several years to stop saying you guys. The phrase you guys.

[Ian Shillag]

Right.

[Mike Danforth]

Mike, I think you and I are both guilty of this.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah. I will write that in an email, a group email, and then I will take it out. Then I have to scramble to come up with something else.

[Mike Danforth]

And sometimes I'll hear it come out of your mouth, which you can't take back. You've already hurt people.

[Ian Shillag]

You're right. You can't unhear that. I apologize to anyone I've said that to. I apologize.

[Mike Danforth]

So both of us would like to stop saying it. So we're going to establish a little accountability. We're going to do a. You guys fast. And you people out there, we'd love for you to join. If you also want to stop saying you Guys, send us an email, let us know you're taking part. Keep us apprised of your progress, your mistakes, the times you hurt people, just as Mike has.

[Ian Shillag]

Wait, so you people, that's the solution?

[Mike Danforth]

You're right. That doesn't sound great either.

[Pier Franco Modale]

You.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah.

[Mike Danforth]

Our fellow humans out there, if you would like to join us in this, you guys, fast, let us know.

[Ian Shillag]

This is a real story that I have a relative who's a pastor who was baptizing a kid, a baby and he forgot the baby's name and he just said child of God. And that was his solution in the moment, in front of everybody. That doesn't work. That doesn't quite work in an email.

[Mike Danforth]

Well, I think if any of us embarking on this fast, and let's say it's a 30 day fast, if you find yourself about to say, you guys, just try, you children of God, and see where that gets you.

[Ian Shillag]

Hey y'all, that works. Hina. That was what you did, right? That's what you've. We talked about this and that was a solution that you came up with? Yeah, I went to a very PC high school and we actually couldn't say guys and so I started saying y'all. And then I went to college and everyone thought I was from the South. And where are you from? The Chicago suburbs. There you go.

[Mike Danforth]

Well, if you children of God have a question for us, just get it to [e-mail] no matter what your question.

[Ian Shillag]

Is, no matter how big, no matter how small, we will do our best to find an expert to answer it. That email again, how topr.org this message comes from BetterHelp.

[Ira Glass]

It's important to take time to show gratitude towards others, but it's equally important to thank yourself. Life throws a lot of curveballs and being grateful isn't always easy. Therapy can help remind you of all that you're worthy of and all that you do have. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. [e-mail] NPR today to get 10% off your first month.

[Capella University]

This message comes from Capital One offering commercial solutions you can bank on. Now more than ever, your business faces unique challenges and opportunities. That's why Capital One offers a comprehensive suite of financial services, all tailored to your short and long term goals. Backed by the strength and stability of a top 10 commercial bank, their dedicated experts work with you to build lasting success. Explore the [e-mail] commercialamemberfdic this message comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].

[Peter Sagal]

Support for NPR and the following message come from SimpliSafe if you've ever worried about the safety of your home and family, there is no better time to act. Get 60% off a new Simplisafe security system today. Old school alarm systems only kick in once someone is already inside your home. SimpliSafe SimplySafe stops criminals from entering your home with its exclusive Active Guard outdoor protection. To get 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan, head to simplisafe.com wait. There's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Mike Danforth]

This is Ira Glass of this American Life. Each week on our show, we choose a theme, tell different stories on that theme. All right, I'm just going to stop right there. You're listening to an NPR podcast. Chances are you know our show. So instead I'm going to tell you we've just been on a run of really good shows lately. Some big, epic, emotional stories and some weird, funny stuff, too. Download us this American Life. The town of Viganella, Italy, sits in the shadow of the Alps, such that the town got no sunlight for three months out of the year. For centuries.

[Ian Shillag]

In 2006, the mayor, Pier Franco Modale, was overseeing the rebuilding of the town square, and he came up with an idea. Pierre Franco is on the line with us now, along with his daughter Fabiola, who's translating.

[Pier Franco Modale]

Okay. So he was working with a friend of him who is an architect for the square, for the rebuilding of the square. And they were also working on a sundial to be painted on the wall of the church. And while speaking about these, he told his friend, this sundial will be useless for three months in winter because there will be no sun. And his friend told him, are you joking? No, I'm not joking. So they decided to try to find a solution to solve the problem of the shades for three months in winter.

[Mike Danforth]

So they realized that the tops of the mountains around the town did get sunlight and that that might be their solution.

[Pier Franco Modale]

Okay. So they decided to build this giant mirror 40 square meters at the top of the mountain opposite the village to reflect the sun directly on the village. It's 1 km far from the village, on the top of the mountain. And it is able. Quantum. 750 square meters.

[Mike Danforth]

Wow.

[Pier Franco Modale]

The full square and a bit more. Maybe some houses, too.

[Ian Shillag]

So during the winter months, when there is no sun, the mirror creates sunlight.

[Pier Franco Modale]

In this otherwise sun, it's not like real sun because it. It doesn't warm up. It's. It's simply. Yeah, it's sunny, it's light. No, Scalda.

[Dr. Michael McGeezy Sullivan]

No.

[Alexa]

Yeah.

[Pier Franco Modale]

It doesn't warm up, but it lights. So we can see the sun on the square, which was something unbelievable because for the people who live in Viganella, for the whole life, it was strange.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah. And if you wanted to, could you stand out there and get a suntan?

[Pier Franco Modale]

We have no suntan. Do you want to show them? Yeah. He's a bit tender. Only a bit. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Danforth]

So can you remember. Can you remember what it felt like the first time the sun bounced out this mirror and lit up this place, which had been dark. Describe the scene if you remember.

[Pier Franco Modale]

He told us that even before the construction of the mirror, lots of people were skeptical about it. They didn't believe that it would be possible to build such an invention. So he carried on his shoulders a giant mirror, and he went to the top of the mountain and he tried to show the people how it would be like to have the sun even in winter, because lots of people didn't believe him.

[Peter Sagal]

Wow.

[Pier Franco Modale]

Yeah. They thought he was crazy in a kind of way that. That's true. Because he's a bit crazy. Yeah.

[Ian Shillag]

I guess you'd have to be kind of crazy to think that putting a giant mirror on a mountain would work.

[Pier Franco Modale]

You must be crazy to come up with such an invention. Yeah. With such an idea. I agree with you.

[Ian Shillag]

Well, that does it for this week's show. What'd you learn, Ian?

[Mike Danforth]

Well, I learned that you could use a mirror to light up an entire town.

[Ian Shillag]

It seems like such a simple solution, but an incredible solution at such a huge scale. Like, that's such a giant mirror.

[Mike Danforth]

I think that mirror also up on top of the mountain.

[Ian Shillag]

Yeah.

[Mike Danforth]

It's useful for any of the animals that need to see how they look. You know, you maybe do a little preening. Do I have something in my teeth?

[Ian Shillag]

But could you imagine, though, if you're down there in the square and you're like, you know what? I'm tanning. I'm just going to get a quick tan. And then suddenly a shadow goes over it, because a bear is like checking its teeth. You're like, hey, hey.

[Mike Danforth]

Yeah.

[Ian Shillag]

Really trying to get some sun.

[Mike Danforth]

Yeah, I guess like a bear could actually cause a solar eclipse just because it wanted to do with time eyebrows.

[Ian Shillag]

How to Do Everything is produced by Hina Srivastava with technical direction from Lorna White.

[Mike Danforth]

Our intern is Ed Brown. Ed, we're glad to hear the Hiccup cure worked.

[Ian Shillag]

Stay strong, Ed.

[Mike Danforth]

Get us your [e-mail] I'm Ian.

[Ian Shillag]

And I'm Mike.

[Mike Danforth]

Thanks thank.

[Ira Glass]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection hotels. With over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else, Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the [e-mail] this message comes from Capella University.

[Capella University]

With Capella's Flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu.

[Peter Sagal]

So if you're a regular listener of Wait, wait, Don't tell me. Then you probably enjoy some other NPR podcasts too, even though they're obviously not as good. But with NPR, you get perks like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, early access, shop discounts, and more for over 20 different NPR podcasts like this one, the best one. So start supporting what you love and stop hearing promos like this [e-mail].