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- [00:00]
Matthew Scher
Wondery subscribers can binge all episodes of We Came to the Forest ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:17]
Campsite Media
Campsite Media.
- [00:22]
Tommy Andres
Hey guys, I think Let me get your attention right quick.
- [00:24]
Matthew Scher
In early November of 2023, a bailiff steps into a courtroom in Atlanta and addresses the gallery. Do not say ma' yes. No, Judge, you, Honor. Just don't say ma'am. If you have a pen and it.
- [00:37]
Reverend Kiana Jones
Clicks, don't let it click.
- [00:39]
Matthew Scher
Over the next couple of hours, 57 of the 61 defendants in the RICO case will file through this room to be arraigned on charges stemming from their involvement in the Stop Cop City movement. The judge overseeing this circus is a stern veteran named Kimberly Esmond Adams. Given the number of defendants we have, we obviously cannot fit everyone in the courtroom because as you all see, even with all of the attorneys here, we'll have some challenges. Around midday, Vienna Forrest is alerted that it's her turn. She walks steadily up to the table at the front of the room. She's wearing her blonde hair long. She's got a figurine of a turtle suspended on a rope around her neck. Adam stares down at her. Are you aware the charge is pending against you?
- [01:25]
Vienna Forrest
Yes, Judge.
- [01:26]
Matthew Johnson
Despite the fucked up scenario of being on criminal court, together like that was our opportunity to be in community with each other and show solidarity in a way that has been taken away from us.
- [01:42]
Matthew Scher
Good morning, my children.
- [01:46]
Reverend Kiana Jones
Good morning.
- [01:48]
Matthew Scher
The week of the arraignments and an event timed to show the movement to stop Cop City has not been quashed, no matter how many activists have been jailed. A diverse group of protesters from all over the country gathers in a park near the Old Forest Defender Camp. Their plan is to march towards the Cop City construction site, stopping on the way to plant tree seedlings. Before the march begins, Balquis Torte's mom climbs onto a picnic table to give a blessing, a benediction. Repeat after me to fuck the police.
- [02:27]
Reverend Kiana Jones
We have to be happy.
- [02:30]
Matthew Scher
The faces in the crowd are mostly new to me. Vienna and her co defendants in the RICO case have opted not to participate in the march. Too risky. Same for Matthew Johnson, who is facing several felonies from the tire shop incident and can't afford another run in with the police. Still, it's a formidable showing. Maybe three to 400 people, including me and producer Tommy Andres. Tommy and I have been reporting on the Cop City protests now for months, but this is our first time being on the ground with activists in a situation where things could easily go sideways There are rumors that splinter groups may attempt to break off through the forest towards the foundations of the training facility, as they did at the music festival the previous spring. At the front of the line, activists clad in ponchos, hazmat suits and gas masks hold a pair of banners, each nearly 20ft long. One reads, defend the Forest. Defund the Police. The other we Are the People's Stop Work Order. As we march towards the main thoroughfare that will carry us to the edge of the South River Forest, the tension is amplified. To our left is a line of police vehicles, the rooftop lights flashing. This is an illegal protest.
- [03:55]
Hannah Reilly
Please disperse or you will be arrested.
- [03:58]
Matthew Scher
Ahead, near the entrance to the forest, an even larger group of cops awaits. These officers wear body armor and visored helmets and carry shields. They are armed with automatic assault rifles and scoped sniper rifles. Dogs in matching combat gear pace anxiously at their feet. What the fuck is that thing?
- [04:20]
Unnamed Officer
Oh, shit.
- [04:22]
Matthew Scher
A sonic cannon.
- [04:23]
Vienna Forrest
Sound cannon?
- [04:24]
Matthew Scher
Yeah.
- [04:24]
Unnamed Officer
Holy shit.
- [04:25]
Matthew Scher
My good friend and fellow journalist Hannah Reilly is walking with us. Like me and Tommy, she's brought a gas mask, which is why all our voices sound muffled. The sound cannon, Hannah explains, emits a cascade of ear splitting noise loud enough to disperse crowds today. The device is mounted atop the armored vehicle nicknamed the Beast, which is parked at an angle in the road behind yet another row of cops. One officer in that row, I notice, is loading tear gas canisters into his shotgun. Slowly, and then, all at once, the protesters at the front of the line hurl themselves at the police shields. It looks like a scene out of a war movie. Thrashing, writhing, chaos. Limbs fly. The air is filled with panicked shouts.
- [05:18]
Tommy Andres
Gas.
- [05:21]
Matthew Scher
And then the tear gas. Around me, lying on the ground, I see several activists clutching their faces. The gas has caught me, too. My gas mask has no goggles. My eyes are bleary and red. Anybody have water?
- [05:40]
Reverend Kiana Jones
Medic.
- [05:41]
Matthew Scher
A protester shouts out an order to retreat, but the reverse, apparently, isn't quick enough. A flashbang goes off. And now a moment I still think about. More than a year later, the line of cops in front has inched forward in an attempt to push the crowd towards the other line of police, to trap the protesters and force them back the way they came. And the cops doing the pushing have rifles, one of which is raised about a yard from my face. Back up, the guy says. And in that one moment, I can clearly see how easily lethal violence might erupt, how narrowly. Everyone here is walking on the edge of disaster. One mistake, one slip up, and the bullets could start to fly. Miraculously there will be no arrests today. No major injuries either. Just a commanding show of force by law enforcement, which really is the point. A message is being sent on the way back to the park. The protesters pass through the surrounding neighborhood again. But the streets are no longer empty. A few residents, nearly all of them black, are now outside on their porches and driveways. And we must lick you all. The mother is up there.
- [07:12]
Reverend Kiana Jones
The mother is up there.
- [07:15]
Matthew Scher
She's stuck up there. She can't let down. A man jostles forward. Stop blocking the roads. He shouts. And in his face is all the frustration and friction and fear that everyone affected by the fight over cop City has experienced one way or another, whether participant or bystander. Y'all are not helping us. Y'all brought my neighborhood down. I got to fucking move because of y'all causes. Y'all don't live here. Y'all don't give a fuck about us. The baby is sick inside. 4 year old. I'm ready to take the baby. Everybody go to y'all fucking neighborhood and protest this shit. Don't fucking come here. Y'all are bringing the fucking neighborhood down. Worse. A couple of the protesters try to de escalate the situation. The rest push past in a straight line, their eyes cast on the ground in front of them. This place is no good. Because of yours the police gonna be. Who the fuck they from Wondery Campside Media and Tenderfoot tv. I'm Matthew and this is we came to the forest. This is our final episode. The trees. Never forget, RICO cases as a rule tend to be complex, ungainly, slow moving things. And the cop city one is no exception. An actual trial will be months off at very best. Still, that doesn't mean that attorneys on both sides can immediately begin jockeying for position or begin making their arguments in the court of public opinion. Manuel Tehran is now at the focus of a motion by a deputy attorney general.
- [09:28]
Hannah Reilly
Prosecutors argued that Tehran was a co.
- [09:30]
Matthew Scher
Conspirator of the defendants in this massive RICO case. And so their written statements in a diary are admissible as evidence. In mid November of 2023, prosecutors submit a motion alleging that Torte's diary, which was found in tent after their death, should be submitted into evidence. The argument is that although Tord is dead, they were a co conspirator to the actions laid out in the indictments. Prosecutors attach photocopies of the entire diary itself to the motion, guaranteeing it will soon be all over the news. The diary motion says Tehran often goes.
- [10:07]
Hannah Reilly
Into detail about his hatred for police.
- [10:09]
Matthew Scher
Current society and the way that he believes society should be. These statements are a glimpse into the.
- [10:14]
Hannah Reilly
Mind of a forest offender and the attitudes kept by Tehran and his co conspirators.
- [10:19]
Matthew Johnson
I cared less for the words and more than just the pure act of releasing something that was very personal to them. It's their inner thoughts and to send it out to the public and put them on blast. You could say that about anyone's diary. Like, that's a fucked up thing to do.
- [10:37]
Matthew Scher
Vienna watches in horror as the whole thing plays out. Only a couple of outlets report on the pages of poetry inside the diary, the romantic reflections on the movement. The stuff that actually makes most TV news reports is far more incendiary. The private thoughts of an increasingly angry activist who never dreamed the world would see. Their comments calling for the death of.
- [11:01]
Matthew Johnson
Cops they want to vilify. There's not really any hard evidence in there. It's not gonna hold up in court. They just want to do that for the pr. You know, they have been losing the PR game for a while because what they're doing is fucked up and people are noticing. That's fucking. What about ism? I wish I could say I'm surprised, but here we are.
- [11:31]
Matthew Scher
There's a dark irony to the fact that the state is so proactive about releasing Torte's diary when they are completely, completely unforthcoming about nearly everything else. Atlanta Police Chief Darren Sheerbaum was an exception when it came to officials willing to speak with us about any aspect of the Forrest Defender movement. The mayor, the Atlanta Police foundation reps for both declined repeated requests for on the record interviews. As for the gbi, not only did the agency refuse to make any any of its staffers available, but it also refused to make public the files we knew the agency held on Tort's death. This despite the fact that the GBI traditionally releases such files as soon as officers have been cleared of wrongdoing and sent back to work as they had been here. The GBI's argument is straightforward, if also a little contrived, if you ask me. Tort's shooting, the agency contends, is related to the RICO stuff. Again, even though Torte is deceased and we can't give you the files until the RICO trial has wrapped. So instead of waiting, we hire an attorney, Joy Ramsing, and file a lawsuit against the gbi. All right, let's see.
- [12:52]
Reverend Kiana Jones
Campside Media versus gbi.
- [12:55]
Matthew Scher
For months, the suit winds its way through the courts until in late 2024, a judge in DeKalb county finally and emphatically denies the GBI's request to dismiss the case. The GBI now has to give us the files or face the possibility of a bench trial with all the associated costs and the potential exposure to a discovery process, which they almost certainly do not want. In the end, though, we are able to receive the files without going to trial. And as we had always suspected, they yield a far more in depth account of the events in the woods on that January morning, an account significantly more complicated than the one often treated as gospel in the movement, that of Torrit as assassinated martyr, but more complicated, too, than the official story put forward by the state. What form did we receive these files in? One afternoon, Tommy and I meet up to go over the files, our laptops open. On the table in front of us.
- [14:00]
Unnamed Officer
There are thousands of photos, hundreds of hours of body cam and surveillance video, audio from dozens of police depositions, and an uncountable number of documents. I mean, very little of this stuff has been seen by the public, and it's all just kind of thrown on here, unordered and poorly labeled. Took me two.
- [14:15]
Matthew Scher
In recent days, we've drilled down into the OIS file, that's Officer involved shooting, which contains the full ballistics and lab reports, crime scene photos, and hours of officer depositions.
- [14:29]
Unnamed Officer
I think the natural starting point here is with a document called the GBI Tactical Plan, which is basically the instructions laid out for the January 18th raid. So this document says that surveillance had identified 20 campsites occupied by roughly 30 DTS, which is short for domestic terrorists. I just want to clarify here for a second that none of the people in the woods that day had been charged with domestic terrorism, let alone convicted of it. But they go on to describe the subjects of the raid, the forest defenders, as dangerous. They say they're known to be armed and to use booby traps and IEDs. So to clear these 20 or so campsites, they expect to find, they are literally deploying an army. There are well over 100 officers being utilized here. 50 from Atlanta PD, 30 from DeKalb Police, 10 Georgia State Patrol agents, a dozen GBI agents, DNR agents, SWAT teams, K9 handlers, ATV operators, air surveillance with infrared transport vans, rooks, which are these excavator tractor looking things that can basically plow down trees. And all the officers in the forest are required, according to this document, to wear body armor. And nearly all of them are carrying military grade weaponry.
- [15:38]
Matthew Scher
Also included in the document is an order provided the occupants show I.D. the order reads, and have their records checked for Any outstanding warrants, they will be allowed to exit the forest without being detained. I mention this because for reasons that are never explained and presumably originate somewhere high up the chain of command, the no arrest orders are ultimately reversed. In fact, a captain with the State patrol tells investigators the reversal comes at more or less the exact exact moment the raid teams are entering the woods.
- [16:13]
Hannah Reilly
Once we got started, after we started making contact, radio communication came out that said anybody found in the forest was to be arrested regardless of whether they identified themselves or not.
- [16:27]
Matthew Scher
It should go without saying that there's a big difference between allowing protesters to peacefully exit the forest and deciding in advance to arrest them all. The former tactic potentially gives you more chances at de escalation, while the latter drastically heightens the stakes for both the targets of the raid and the officers involved with carrying it out. Officers who are already on edge, who have been prepped in the briefing for the possibility of conflict with domestic terrorists. These Terrorists, says a SWAT specialist, I'll call Trooper 1, were known to be trespassing, an inaccuracy since the targets of the raid are camped out in a public part of the forest. They were organized anti government group of people. They were in the woods for approximately.
- [17:18]
Tommy Andres
I think about a year.
- [17:21]
Matthew Scher
They have possibly booby traps, IDs, tree.
- [17:26]
Unnamed Officer
Houses, which gave them the advantage of observation.
- [17:30]
Matthew Scher
Being higher ground is better and not friendly towards law enforcement at all. That's what they said. And also there was a previous history of using some elements, possibly could be using firearms. In the files we obtained, there is at least one documented instance of a forest defender being arrested in the woods with a long gun. But Georgia's open carry laws allow individuals to carry firearms virtually anywhere. So having one in the park is not a crime in of itself. Still, the members of the raid team are not taking any chances. Nearly all the state troopers, for example, are armed with long guns with full auto capability and suppressors. And they have the military grade gear to match. As the captain points out, helmets, flashbang grenades, plenty of body armor.
- [18:26]
Hannah Reilly
So we have two styles we wear, but I believe they were wearing what we refer to as the bunker or heavy armor. Just provides a little bit more protection.
- [18:32]
Matthew Scher
But some may have been just been.
- [18:34]
Hannah Reilly
Wearing plates, they would have had a helmet. We had an armored vehicle out there that had like their gas mask in case we encountered somebody that we had to use chemical munitions on. Whenever you involve tactical operators, you are automatically introducing a level of weaponry, a level of force into that situation.
- [18:55]
Matthew Scher
I think case Steve Remick is a veteran cop in his 30 years in law enforcement, he's worked as a member of the same type of tactical squads deployed to the forest that day, and also as a major crimes detective, a firearms instructor, and a professional standards and use of force expertise. As a favor, he agrees to look over the contents of the OIS file and share his thoughts. And Steve is struck by the same things I am the fact, for example, that officers are being told in a briefing that they're about to face domestic terrorists when what they're really going to encounter is fewer than 20 activists, the remnants of the once vibrant forest defender camp. More important, though, Steve goes on, is what's not in the briefing.
- [19:46]
Hannah Reilly
Where are the further commands or further structure of. Of rules of engagement? Hey, we're dealing with a misdemeanor. Hey, we're dealing with people that may not be planting IEDs, that may not be trying to hurt law enforcement, that may just here to be a protester. So when you encounter people, give some space, give some time, work on your communication. Right, where's that? That's nowhere in that operational plane. That's a pretty important piece.
- [20:09]
Matthew Scher
As is the body camera factor. The OAS file contains plenty of additional footage, but none that depicts the shooting itself, largely because the officers who shot Tort were not wearing cameras. Yes, those officers were state troopers, and in Georgia, state troopers aren't required to wear body cameras. But if you really do think you're going to have to tangle with armed domestic terrorists, why is there a full team of cops with no cameras at all?
- [20:40]
Hannah Reilly
Your briefing clearly said there's this level of threat we're worried about. Well, why wouldn't you want to have that video? I think that was an error. And truly look at what ends up happening.
- [20:49]
Matthew Scher
The one cameraless team he's talking about here is a unit overseen directly by the aforementioned captain, a group that includes a tactical specialist I'll call Trooper 2. The unit Trooper 2 recalls, heads in a line into the forest, clearing structures as it proceeds. If a tent is occupied, they remove the occupants or ask them to exit the structure and place them into restraints.
- [21:16]
Unnamed Officer
We would handcuff them and then turn them over to the GBI agent that was assigned to each team. So we literally had a GBI agent behind us.
- [21:22]
Matthew Scher
Around 9am they arrive at what we now know is Tort's tent. In all the reporting to this point, one source of confusion has been the nature of any interactions between Tort and law enforcement. A theory I'd frequently heard is that Tort was effectively ambushed, sprung upon while they were meditating they're sleeping. They're reading this. The files reveal was not the case contact in one clip from a body cam worn by a Department of Natural Resources agent. You can hear the DNR agency and ask Trooper 2 and the others if the tent is occupied. Is he talking? Is he talking back to you?
- [22:05]
Unnamed Officer
All right, let's go to the next one.
- [22:08]
Matthew Scher
We can see the tent moving around. They appear to be, you know, getting things together to come out or whatever. So we left. Myself and my cover officer left that tent to go clear other tents because those troopers had that tent covered. The DNR agent, who also later gave a deposition to investigators, moves on. And as he does, his camera moves out of range. But the crucial next minutes are described independently in different depositions by the troopers clustered around Tort's tent.
- [22:40]
Unnamed Officer
He said, hey, you and the tent, you are under arrest. You know, come out for. He said, you're under arrest for criminal trespass. Come out, you know, unarmed, with your hands up. That kind of deal. The suspect still refused to exit tent. But now he said, no, I want you to leave. But he looks at us one by one. And at the time, nobody knew it, but now I believe he was looking to see where we were at. The way his eyes looked, he looked angry. His brows were furrowed. He looked like somebody was angry. It's no different than coming home. You ain't talk to your wife all day and you look her in the face, you could tell she's angry. She things that work to you.
- [23:14]
Matthew Scher
It's a standoff toward in their tent, the officers outside, weapons raised. In less than three minutes from their initial approach, the forest will explode in gunfire.
- [23:32]
Campsite Media
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- [24:41]
Matthew Scher
By 9am on January 18th of 2023, the OIS files show there are six troopers surrounding Tort's tent. They arrange themselves in an L formation with four on one edge of the structure and the other two at the entrance. Tort, according to the officer depositions, is still refusing to exit the tent, leaving the troopers with a few options. One is to muscle their way in, an idea that's quickly ruled out. There is no safe way, the officers conclude, to enter a small structure occupied by a potentially armed person.
- [25:18]
Unnamed Officer
Based on all the information we've been provided at the beginning of this operation, that the true believer hardcore domestic terrorists that were involved in this were not scared to use force, that it's likely if we did try to go up there and use force, physical force to subdue this person is going to be a fight. So pepper balls is the best option to us right at this time.
- [25:39]
Matthew Scher
Pepper balls are basically pepper spray encapsulated in paintballs. On impact, they release a powdered chemical that irritates the nose and throat. Although they are technically classified as non lethal projectiles, they can break bones, shatter skulls. In the raid planning, pepper balls are listed as an option to help get reluctant activists out of tree sits. There is no guidance on deploying them towards a forest defender on the ground. Still, this is what the officers opt to do. Fire pepper balls into Tort's tent in an effort to force them to exit.
- [26:16]
Unnamed Officer
So I discharged the pepper ball system and I intentionally and specifically aimed through the mosquito net in the opening I could see, and I wanted the pepperball round to go into the back left corner of the tent. I did that for a couple reasons. So first, even though the pepper balsam is designed to strike an individual to get both pain compliance and then use the chemical agents to make it uncomfortable to remove them away from the area. I want him to come out the front, so if I start peppering with rounds at the front, he's probably not going to come out the front. It's going to be, please stop. But what I want is we need him to exit the tent peacefully.
- [26:52]
Matthew Scher
A few seconds later, the last of the pepper balls thuds into the structure, clogging the tent with a cloud of pepper. But what if this pivotal point in the encounter had gone differently? What if instead of escalating the situation by firing pepper balls into the tent, the troopers paused and collected themselves? Remember, as Steve notes, that just three minutes elapsed is between the initial contact with Tort at their tent and the pepper ball Deployment.
- [27:25]
Hannah Reilly
There shouldn't be a time constraint here. If officers feel that they're threatened and the fact that the tent is zipped up and they don't know whether the person has a weapon and they're apparently the briefing had all kinds of stuff about IEDs and booby traps, well, then take some cover, move in different places, create some fields of fire, and step back. And basically time is on you, your side, right? He's not going anywhere. He's in a tent.
- [27:50]
Matthew Scher
Quick note that Steve uses he him pronouns to refer to Tort, not purposefully. He's just coming off. Reviewing a few terabytes of data in which every deposed police officer does the same. In Steve's mind, there was another way for officers to address the situation, starting with the troopers establishing space between themselves and Tord, giving them time to bring in an officer with negotiation skills.
- [28:16]
Hannah Reilly
What I would typically train officers to do is, you know, if it doesn't work in a first couple and you don't have to immediately put your hands on somebody because the situation dictates that, start changing tactics, using different words, turn to somebody else, try you talking to them, you know, but there's some sort of change, a transition period to a different type of communication. If you don't need to be more authoritative and more demanding, then you change that. Do I really need to force it right now, or can I do some other things to bring a different outcome to this situation?
- [28:50]
Matthew Scher
Instead, the pepper balls begin to fly, six in total, into a space barely large enough for a sleeping bag. The gunfire follows, as an officer nearby will later recount.
- [29:02]
Unnamed Officer
At first, the way it sounded was the steady pop of the pepper ball.
- [29:06]
Matthew Scher
And then, almost on the same tempo.
- [29:09]
Unnamed Officer
A much louder pops, which indicated gunfire, and then a heavy barrage of gunfire in return. So I remember just putting the dot on my rifle towards where I thought the suspect was shooting from, and I shot several times trying to stop that shooting from continuing.
- [29:31]
Matthew Scher
One of the troopers goes down, shot right below his armor, in the lower torso, above the hip.
- [29:39]
Tommy Andres
Oh, fuck.
- [29:40]
Matthew Scher
After the shooting, shooting dies down. The trooper is evacuated by atv. The officers toss a flashbang towards Tort's tent to cover their approach. But when a new group of officers, these ones wearing body cams, arrive at the tent, they see Tort crumpled on their side. The troopers check Tort's Pulse and declare them 48, which is code for dead. Later, in a telling moment, a pair of officers clustered near the tent will dissect what has just happened, attempt to make sense of it. Stupid bro for criminal Trespass.
- [30:29]
Hannah Reilly
You got killed.
- [30:31]
Matthew Scher
Actually, they fucked up. Now was going to be either quick.
- [30:33]
Tommy Andres
Quick, quick, trigger happy.
- [30:35]
Matthew Scher
Now, a member of the raid team has found an object on the ground, his hand gloved. He picks it up and identifies it. I think it's a nine mil. A nine millimeter. He's saying the same gun that Torte was known to carry and that Vienna had seen at least once before when she attended a weapons training session with Tord and this guy. Same weapon that the OIS files show was conclusively matched to the bullet retrieved from the body of the injured trooper. In general, this part of the raid does seem to line up with the GBI's official narrative. The additional body cam footage and depositions and the full ballistics report indicate that the pepperball deployment was trailed quickly by a smattering of bullets fired from towards tent and return fire from the troopers. Tord shot a police officer. The police officers killed Tord. Viewed in a vacuum, viewed without any additional context, Steve says this explains why the officers involved in the shooting were cleared of wrongdoing.
- [31:49]
Hannah Reilly
When I first looked at it, I could certainly see that this was legally probably a justifiable shooting. It appeared that the report that was issued was written fairly well. There was definitely imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury to the officers.
- [32:07]
Matthew Scher
The standoff at the tent qualifies. Tor did have a gun, did fire the gun, and almost certainly fired the gun before the officers discharged their rifles. And yet if Tort used lethal force first, they did not use force first. Full stop. It was the troopers who took that step with a high velocity pepperball launcher fired at extremely close range.
- [32:33]
Hannah Reilly
They're firing blindly into the tent, so they can't possibly know maybe where his body isn't and shoot at the ground to have it expel up into the tent and cause him discomfort and want to give up. So then you're talking about it coming in through the tent and striking the individual at any different body part from tip of the head on down to the base of the body. The other thing is not everybody knows what a damn pedder ball is, right? So if you're yelling to a person in the tent, we're going to use pepper ball, they may have no idea what that is. And I'll tell you that when you get shot at, there's a thing called.
- [33:10]
Matthew Scher
Auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, basically, but with sound followed by the triggering of the fight or flight response.
- [33:19]
Hannah Reilly
Imagine getting hit with a pepper ball inside of a tent, hearing a report of some sort of pow, bang, whatever, and then Being struck and caused pain. And you don't know what pepper ball is when they said they're going to use it. So you don't know. And then all of a sudden you're whack. A lot of times you hear something, your brain reacts to it.
- [33:39]
Matthew Scher
To Steve, the resting position of Tort's body adds credence to this idea the autopsy talked about.
- [33:47]
Hannah Reilly
Most likely he was in a seated position. Yeah, you're in a tent. But if your intent is to use deadly force against those officers, I'm not going to be sitting in a cross leg position. Right.
- [34:00]
Matthew Scher
What Steve is saying here is that it's possible that at least in their mind, Torte may have been the one returning fire.
- [34:08]
Hannah Reilly
We only know one side of what's happened here because the victim can't testify. But the crime scene itself I think may speak volumes in that in terms of, you know, what transpired there that caused him to then fire. We know the pepper ball came first from the testimony of the officers and the reports and then the firing came afterwards. Not justifying, you know, ability to shoot back out of the tent, but just trying to explain because there are two sides to every story.
- [34:39]
Unnamed Officer
Okay, so I'm about to tell you some things.
- [34:42]
Tommy Andres
Here we go.
- [34:43]
Matthew Scher
Not long after we receive the files, we sit down with Matthew Johnson to share the findings from the hard drive.
- [34:50]
Tommy Andres
I'm supposed to trust the evidence of people who did it, right? Like, I mean, this, and this is an imbalance or asymmetry and credibility. There is nothing that the police can do where we begin to question whether what they are generally saying is true. Nevertheless, at the same time, whenever protesters or resistance fighters of any sort make any overtures that are deemed socially unacceptable, they are condemned as at the, you know, first sight.
- [35:28]
Matthew Scher
Matthew points out that Torrit often said that the forest defenders struggle would never be won with brute force. We heard Torrit proclaim something similar earlier in the series. Well, I guess the right kind of resistance, like peaceful. We're not gonna beat them at violence. They're very, very good at violence. Sure, we're not. So we win through non violence and.
- [35:51]
Unnamed Officer
That'S, that's really the only way that we can win.
- [35:56]
Tommy Andres
So like, given that analysis, it is very hard for me to believe that he would have wanted to die this way. But shit, I mean, let's be frank, right? I see every single excuse made for police that haphazardly take shots at people when it's unnecessary because they're panicked or they're afraid. They literally have hundreds of hours of training for them to be able to handle those crisis situations. So I can also understand somebody without any of that training struggling to breathe for themselves, panics and makes a decision, hypothetically. But the thing is, the power of the state ain't on Tortuguita's side here.
- [36:59]
Matthew Scher
Matthew pauses once again.
- [37:02]
Tommy Andres
Not sure of this information myself, but sure would be nice to still have Tortaguita here. So if there was ever any way that things could have been different and they would still be alive today, I would have preferred that course of action that would have preserved their life and had them be here.
- [37:32]
Matthew Scher
So, Z, here's the sort of bottom line. Do you. I mean, I've. From. It's not there when I catch up with Vienna. She's left Atlanta for the Northeast. She speaks to me from a studio and a radio station in a city I'm gonna choose not to disclose. Sitting in my office, separated from Vienna by hundreds of miles, I listen to her process the news about the apparent order of events, the ballistics tests. So I will stop. And I. I don't know. Do you have questions? I mean, do you?
- [38:16]
Matthew Johnson
Yeah, I don't know.
- [38:18]
Matthew Scher
Ever since I met Vienna, I've admired her ability to face the most jarring of events with equanimity. It's a skill I have never possessed. Here's a person who, before she's turned 30, has faced enough trauma and death and upheavals for three lifetimes and has somehow found the necessary distance to parse it, to make sense of it in her own way. Now I listen as she does it again in real time.
- [38:46]
Matthew Johnson
I guess I want to be careful what I say, given my legal situation. But, yeah, I fully support Torte, you know, like, even, like, we're all human, we get scared and we make decisions, and I'm not going to fault them for that. And I think that. I think that they always knew that this was kind of how they were going to go. And as sad as it is to see them go, I think it's important to. It's important that they stuck with their morals, you know.
- [39:43]
Matthew Scher
It doesn't make her think any differently of her fallen partner. Certainly not any more negatively, if the stuff in the OAS files is accurate. She goes on, well, wasn't that just evidence of what she calls the vulnerability and humanity of Tortuguita?
- [40:00]
Matthew Johnson
They were a cornered animal, you know, like, we would all act in erratic ways in that moment. And I think it makes sense that some people would lash out in that moment, being prodded and threatened. With kidnapping, that's basically what arrest is. It's kidnapping and holding you for ransom, especially in a precarious position as a brown person. That tort gita is it's not easy to trust cops, and when they start opening fire on you, even if it's just pepper balls, you are prone to freak out and lash out and defend yourself with what tools you have. And that shows the humanity. It's not malice. It's in fear. And that's power. Fear has its own sense of power.
- [41:00]
Matthew Scher
Would she do the same? I ask her. She doesn't answer, not directly. Instead, she says that if she did, she hopes it would be to protect someone she loved.
- [41:31]
Reverend Kiana Jones
My Lord, my whole heart, it bleeds sometimes. But there's gonna be a perfect day.
- [41:41]
Matthew Scher
When trouble On a frigid day In January of 2024, a year after Tord's death in the forest, a group of friends and family gather at Park Avenue Baptist, a liberal church in Atlanta. The leader of the service is Reverend Kiana Jones, who opens with a hymn dedicated to Torte and their memory.
- [42:03]
Reverend Kiana Jones
Oh, I don't know why.
- [42:07]
Matthew Scher
I have.
- [42:08]
Reverend Kiana Jones
To cry sometimes I don't know why Lord I have to sigh sometimes there's gonna be a perfect day.
- [42:21]
Matthew Scher
A few feet away in in the pews are Vienna and Matthew Johnson, who is still in the process of recovering from his breakdown and arrest and living upstairs in one of the rooms over the nave, a guest of the church while he rebuilds his life. Looking around, he realizes that this is the first time since his arrest that he's seen a lot of these people.
- [42:43]
Tommy Andres
I mean, I guess there's always a part of me that wonders what people know, what people think, what's important to them, what do they think of me?
- [42:55]
Matthew Scher
But the faces peering back at him are friendly, reassuring, smiling.
- [43:00]
Tommy Andres
I think that there may have been a degree of relief to see that I was doing reasonably well at the time and had the control of my faculties and my mind to some extent.
- [43:11]
Matthew Scher
Near the altar, Reverend Kiana is now delivering a short eulogy to torture who she got to know in the months leading up to their death.
- [43:19]
Reverend Kiana Jones
When Manny was murdered last year.
- [43:23]
Matthew Scher
It.
- [43:24]
Reverend Kiana Jones
Did something to us. It did something for us because in addition to the fact that what it did to us was make us pay attention in a different way, not only to this fight against Cop City, but to the overarching issue of police murder, police violence, police militarization, the thing that is the intersection of all of the other things that we struggle for and fight against. It also brought us together. And that was what Mandy's murder did for us, because many of us did not meet each other until we came to the forest to mourn. Many, many of us didn't know each other until maybe Manny's memorial.
- [44:12]
Matthew Scher
Here she looks back towards a picture of Torte, as if speaking to them directly.
- [44:18]
Reverend Kiana Jones
To my friend Tortuguita, no one loved the forest more deeply, more fiercely. A part of me is grateful that the land held you in your dying moments. This forest was your home, and now it will always be the trees. Never forget, rest in power, but also rest in peace. Your fight is now over. It's our turn to carry your flame. For you and for everyone claimed by this violence. We will never stop fighting for a better and brighter world.
- [44:59]
Matthew Scher
After the service is complete, Vienna walks outside to smoke a cigarette, passing a table piled high with photos of Torte. Baby pictures, school photos, photos from family vacations. Torte as a child, with so much life ahead of them. And above the table, huge posters bear the phrase Viva Torteguita now, a rallying cry for activists around the world.
- [45:25]
Matthew Johnson
It's hard to describe knowing someone so intimately and then just like seeing their face everywhere, most commonly held by people who never knew Torte. It's a situation where I appreciate the love that has been outpoured for us. But it's weird seeing someone you loved get taken away from you and then in some ways be taken away again by being used as a symbol and being seen as something that isn't.
- [45:56]
Matthew Scher
The complete picture, that complete picture it should be of Tort as they really were. Vienna says none of that in the church that afternoon. For now she's just watching, listening. But later, as she joins her friends for one last march to Gresham park, near the Old Forest defender camp and the site of Cop City itself, which is now almost complete, the words start to come, they coalesce, swirling in her head. And finally, in front of a makeshift memorial for Tort in Gresham park, she steps up to the microphone.
- [46:33]
Vienna Forrest
Oh geez, I am not a public speaker.
- [46:36]
Matthew Scher
Woo.
- [46:38]
Vienna Forrest
I'm gonna be very nervous.
- [46:41]
Matthew Johnson
I wrote something down at this last memorial. I shakenly gave a speech basically just describing that a lot of the things that have been said about Torte is true, but it's not the whole truth.
- [46:57]
Vienna Forrest
A lot has been said of Torte, but only to the degree that fits the narrative of whoever is saying it. Even I have told their story that way in the press, interviews I have done. I don't do this out of malice, but out of the necessity of the situation the state has put me in. The State wishes to vilify Tort, making them into a monster of a violent extremist that justifies their assassination and shows proof of our anti state tendencies to convict me and my co defendants of a conspiracy that could land us in prison for up to 20 years. So the natural response for me and other more front facing elements of this movement is to speak to their kindness, generosity and act acts of mutual aid and solidarity. Meanwhile, more covert elements seek to make a martyr out of them, using their name and their deaths as a call to action to continue the fight in their name. None of this is true, not in its entirety. All of these narratives ignore the fact that they were a real live person with thoughts, feelings, dreams and of course, flaws. The Tortuguita I knew was fun bubbly, bouncing around the forest with a smile, taking care of those they loved. But they were also the one to disappear in their camp for a few days and shitpost on Instagram as a way to avoid conflict with the crazy white anarchists. They were the principled revolutionary, disciplined and focused on pushing their ideals. They were also the angry kid that we all are mad at. A state that has wronged so many and the relatively short existence of it. A state built off of genocide and slave labor that continues to function that way to this day. A country that any sane person would be right to be angry with. Although anger and private thoughts do not constitute a conspiracy or any crime, real or perceived. Torte was a brown non binary radical. They didn't need to commit any crime to be at risk from the state. And last year GBI and GSP proved them right. Tort was my second love in the forest, just after the force itself. They deserve to be remembered how they were not in the way that is politically convenient. And I apologize to them for not telling their truth sooner. I recognize how the state might try to use these words against me, but I refuse to keep playing this game of fear and manipulation at the expense of Tortschita's humanity. There's so much to be said about Tortschit. I never want anyone to see them as this one side, this one convenient piece. They were a whole person. They were everything and none nothing that has been said. They are sorry. They were human.
- [50:08]
Matthew Johnson
I acknowledge their death as a powerful tool. I don't think the movement would have carried on this long if they were not murdered. That doesn't change the fact that I want my friend back. I want Ntor Taquita back.
- [50:24]
Matthew Scher
At the tail end of 2024, Jeff Filipovitz and his law partners hold a press conference on the steps of the old dekalb county courthouse. Belquis is on hand, as is one of torte's brothers and their father, Joel. The purpose of the press conference is to announce a lawsuit tort's parents have filed against three officers involved in the raid that killed tort. Importantly, the lawsuit does not touch on the actual exchange of lethal gunfire. It focuses instead on the circumstances and context of the raid, which unnecessarily and foreseeably put everyone involved in danger and led to the use of excessive force and Manuel's death.
- [51:10]
Jeff Filipovitz
The facts are, Manuel was camped in a public park that was open to the public, that had not been closed, that was not subject to any park closure order. There was no trespassing signs, and law enforcement went into that public space that had been used for months as a meeting ground, as a community ground, as a central place for the political opposition to cop city, and they went in with an order to arrest anyone inside that park.
- [51:39]
Matthew Scher
This, Jeff contends, indicates that the raid was, as he frames it, quote, retaliation for engaging in political speech that was disfavored by law enforcement. The last claim, he goes on, is related to excessive force.
- [51:55]
Jeff Filipovitz
It is not related to the shooting itself. It's related to shooting pepper balls into a tent of a person who is lawfully occupying public land and not violating any law. Filling a tent with pepper spray in an enclosed area, how many seconds do you have to get to the zipper of a tent to open it to escape before you can't find that zipper because you're overwhelmed by burning eyes, burning nose, inability to breathe? If that is how this case has unfolded, would we be questioning whether law enforcement was justified in that use of force? Because that conduct is the same no matter what happened next, regardless of who.
- [52:43]
Matthew Scher
Fired a lethal weapon first. Jeff is alleging police created a dangerous situation for everyone by firing those pepper balls. Created a dangerous situation for torte. Created it for the members of the task force. All right.
- [52:59]
Tommy Andres
Well, good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for gathering with us today here at the Atlanta public safety training center. We are going to give you a great tour of the facility. It is built, as you can see, amazingly surreally.
- [53:14]
Matthew Scher
And what really does appear to be a coincidence, Jeff's press conference is not the only media event that day involving cop city. Across town. At almost the exact same time Jeff is holding his press conference, Atlanta officials are giving the first official tour of the newly completed public safety training center.
- [53:36]
Tommy Andres
Pretty shortly, you'll get on a bus and you'll take a tour around this campus and be able to see how we are enhancing and improving public safety and training in the city of Atlanta as a model to help keep people safe.
- [53:48]
Matthew Scher
Atlanta Mayor Andre Dickens is on hand, as is Atlanta Police Chief Darren Sheerbaum, who takes the mic to address reporters. The campus is divided into two sections.
- [53:58]
Unnamed Officer
We like to call it the Science.
- [54:00]
Matthew Scher
Of Public Safety and then the Art of Public Safety. And you're standing on the science side. Later, APD officials escort journalists to the training center's new horse stables.
- [54:10]
Hannah Reilly
None of us had any horse experience.
- [54:11]
Matthew Scher
Prior to coming over to the mounted patrol. A state of the art six story tower for fire training allows us to simulate smoke and mock houses for more tactical operations.
- [54:23]
Hannah Reilly
It's hard to find venues where you can actually get out and do a big rappel operation.
- [54:28]
Matthew Scher
The fanfare, the pride after years of setbacks, controversy and violence is unmistakable. But the history does not escape some of the journalists who have joined the tour. I asked Sherbaum about the controversy surrounding.
- [54:43]
Reverend Kiana Jones
This center and whether they're still being attacked by protesters, and he says not as of late.
- [54:48]
Matthew Scher
And I think we have allayed concerns around what is being built here, why is it being built here and how.
- [54:54]
Tommy Andres
Are we using the space for the good of Atlanta?
- [54:57]
Matthew Scher
When Tommy and I started reporting the space podcast, the question of whether or not Cop City would ever be completed was genuinely an open one. Back then, I remember, it seemed possible that the whole thing could still be halted by a referendum, maybe. And if not by a referendum, then by the voices and actions of a diverse resistance movement that included the Forest Defenders. Now, although the official opening of the facility remained a question mark in a few weeks, the city said no one actually doubted it was opening. The city and state had done everything in order to ensure that it would. They had cleared the forest and razed the last of the activist camps. They had filed the most sweeping RICO cases against protesters in American history. They had shut down the referendum efforts in the process. They had taken a page from a decades old playbook and dusted it off for 21st century purposes. The overwhelming show of police force, the willingness to jail protesters for long periods of time, the tarring of activists as violent agitators or even terrorists. And more widely, the assault on bail funds like the Saul fund, funds that are integral to the success of direct action movements. In short, suppress, smother, vilify and remove the tools that make mass protests possible. These tactics work. They scare the hell out of would be activists and stifle the voices of the people still bold enough to take to the streets. Perhaps that's why, although cities and municipalities around the country are busy planning for training centers of their own, nothing has yet matched the intensity of the Atlanta protests. With no Forest Defenders to stand in their way, those projects are moving forward full speed ahead.
- [56:56]
Tommy Andres
There are cop cities popping up everywhere, and because we were afraid to have more nuanced conversations about the nature of policing and its impact and its inability to create better social outcomes, Matthew Johnson.
- [57:17]
Matthew Scher
Like a lot of the former Forest Defenders, has tracked this development with a mixture of sadness, anger, frustration.
- [57:25]
Tommy Andres
Instead, we had liberals that capitulated to more conservative interests and wanted to look hard on crime and push this narrative that police need more and more stuff. And now we have created conditions for a police state, and the road to fascism is lined with people telling you that you're overreacting. But I truly do believe that history will absolve us. One thing that I know about political change in the United States is it takes overt conservative aggression for liberals to caucus with progressives and other people on the left. The same thing happened during the civil rights movement, where people saw women and children being beaten in the streets while they were perfect victims. Expect the same thing that will happen here. We saw something similar happen for a brief moment in 2020, but we did not know how to sustain it. We weren't ready. I'm pretty concerned about the future. To be frank with you, I am.
- [58:39]
Matthew Scher
One of the last times I saw Vienna Person, I asked her a question I'd asked in different forms at different junctures over the months. So let's say Cobb City does get built. What does that mean for you? This time, though, I was asking because the hypothetical had become real. The thing was done. Vienna took her time answering.
- [59:02]
Matthew Johnson
I think the community we built, you know, regardless of this condition it's in now, I think is it's powerful to show what we could do and how far we came. It's just like seeing what humans are truly capable of. Like, we have the ingenuity and we can fight for this common cause and build so much community together and just really empower each other to take action against these injustices.
- [59:50]
Matthew Scher
If you like, we came to the forest. You can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey if you have a tip about a story you think we should investigate, please write to us@wondery.com tips we came to the Forest as a production of Wondery, Campside Media and Tenderfoot tv. The series is hosted by me, Matthew Scher and is written and reported by me and Tommy Andres for Campside Media. Our producers are Abacar Adan and Henry Lavoy. Additional production assistance from Timothy Pratt, John Rusch, Aaliyah Papes, Johnny Kaufman and Jamie Albright. Sound design and mix by Garrett Tiedemann. Our theme is by Mondo Boys, Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set and Garrett Tiedemann. Our studio engineers are Jimmy Guthrie at Arcade 160 and Seth Cohen at Seth Coe. Sound fact checking by Aaliyah Papes. Tommy Andres is the Executive Producer. Special thanks to David Eisner for Wondery. Our Senior producer is Lata Pandya. Coordinating producer is Sierra Franco. Development Producer is Olivia Weber Consulting by Cassius Adair of Sylveon Consulting. Executive producers are Vanessa Gregoriadis, Josh Dean, Adam Hoff and me Matthew Scherman for Campside Media. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay for Tenderfoot TV. Executive producers are N'J'aidri Eaton, George Lavender, Marshall Louie and Jen Sargent for Wondery. No other police department has more global brand awareness than the NYPD. From iconic images of 911 to sought after tourist souvenirs. But underneath all the iconic imagery and tales of heroism lie a dark and secret history. From Peabody Award winning host Chenjerai Kumanyika. Empire City takes you back to the 1800s to a new York City overrun with deadly riots and brawls. A time when black New Yorkers are being kidnapped off the city streets and sold into slavery in the South. But their loved ones can't call the cops for help because it turns out the kidnappers are the cops. Find out how the NYPD transformed into the most powerful police force the world has ever seen from Wondery and Crooked Media with Push Black this is Empire City. Follow Empire City on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Empire City ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.