Podcast Summary: "Are There Too Many Managers?"

We Fixed It. You’re Welcome. (Gamut Podcast Network)
Date: April 7, 2026
Featured Guest: Ron Hetrick (Principal Economist, Lightcast)

Overview

This episode of "We Fixed It. You’re Welcome." tackles a hotly debated question in today’s economy: Are there too many managers? The panel explores whether the drive toward upward mobility has created a top-heavy workforce, with too many decision-makers and too few doers. With labor economist Ron Hetrick as the special guest, the discussion delves into data-driven insights, organizational culture, the evolving value of management roles, and how companies (and workers) might adapt for a more balanced future.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Cultural Drive for Upward Mobility

• Societal Values:
  The panel reflects on the prevailing narrative that career advancement equals moving into management, regardless of organizational need.
  • "We’ve built an entire economic system where people who stick around, show their loyalty and prove their worth, expect to move up. Bigger salary, more responsibility... Not all of us want these things, but a lot of us do." – [B, 01:01]
• Misalignments:
  While millions of jobs go unfilled, many are in execution rather than decision-making roles.

2. What Is a Manager—And How Many Do We Really Need?

• Defining Management:
  Ron Hetrick unpacks the broad definition of 'manager'—from supervisor to CEO—and how organizational structure often creates extra managerial layers to reward star performers.
  • "Management is pretty much anything. It’s like it’s a supervisor up to a CEO... And so you do end up with layers." – [C, 05:32]
• The Saturation Issue:
  With more people holding degrees and aspiring to management, the largest segment of white-collar jobs is now managers themselves.
  • "If you look at all white collar roles in this country... the largest bucket is actually managers." – [C, 06:38]

3. The Problem With Too Many Managers

• Organizational Bottlenecks and Layoffs:
  Middle management is the most vulnerable during layoffs, resulting in the loss of expertise but rarely a meaningful shift in upper management.
  • "I've now been laid off from two VP-level roles in a row, both during restructuring... because the structure got heavy… Too many people managing the work, too few people actually doing the work." – [D, 11:51]
• Rewarding the Wrong Things:
  Companies often promote top individual contributors into management—even if it’s not their strength—because it’s the only way to reward them, leading to misalignment and risk for the individual.
  • "We do value intellectual capital... but once you gain this [manager] title... you’re marked. And if something goes wrong, they're going to come in and wipe these people out." – [C, 15:14]

4. How Layoffs Get Decided—And the Human Toll

• Economic Pressures and Quick Fixes:
  Companies frequently lay off middle managers to cut costs, especially after periods of over-hiring spurred by economic booms or external events (like pandemic windfalls).
  • "There’s definitely nothing strategic about the way people lay off... they're usually very quick decisions." – [C, 26:16]
• Misplaced Incentives:
  The drive to reward only those who move up the ladder exacerbates instability and leaves many talented individual contributors at risk.
• Notable Moment:
  "If your role is tied to creating revenue or protecting margin, then you’re valuable. The more trouble you have explaining how your role creates revenue or protects margin, you’re in a very dangerous place." – [C, 15:57]

5. Rethinking Career Ladders and Growth

• Alternate Paths for Ambition:
  Companies are experimenting with dual-track career ladders so high-performing ICs can be rewarded and promoted without moving into people management.
  • "One of the companies I worked at... there were career ladders... There’s a management family, there’s an IC family, and a professional family... an IC level 6 was really equal to a director level." – [D, 38:28]
• Industry and Company Size Matters:
  Large organizations may still push management for advancement, while smaller, more nimble teams value diverse contributions and avoid bloat.
• The Doctor Analogy:
  "Why doctors don’t have many managers? ...Because they were well rewarded for the job they were doing." – [C, 41:45]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Management as a Scarcity Role:
  "You can’t go into battle with 50 generals and one private... somebody’s got to be there to do the fight." – [C, 16:38]
• On the Risk of Being a Manager:
  "Once you gain this title, it becomes the… scarlet letter… if something goes wrong, they’re going to wipe these people out." – [C, 15:39]
• On Company Motivation for Layoffs:
  "You do have a lot of companies who are making these things because they're like, well, our shareholders are comfortable with us making this amount of money and we have to make sure that we stay at that." – [C, 26:22]
• Practical Advice for ICs:
  "If you’re okay to date Google for a second so you can get Google on your resume, awesome. If you’re not, move to IC. That is the trend." – [E, 45:45]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro to the core issue and Ron Hetrick’s background | [01:01–03:35]
• Why the managerial pyramid developed | [05:32–07:07]
• Talent and organizational design perspectives | [07:14–09:39]
• Layoffs and first-hand experience from operations/leadership | [11:51–14:15]
• The rewards system problem and the college degree effect | [15:14–18:51]
• Communicating value as a manager & vulnerability in the middle | [21:39–26:16]
• Why layoffs target middle management | [26:16–30:38]
• The importance of accurate forecasting versus recency bias | [33:29–35:11]
• The evolving sentiment toward management roles | [35:11–38:28]
• Potential solutions: parallel ladders and parity for ICs | [38:28–41:45]
• Panel’s “fix” and recap | [42:00–46:47]
• Ron’s closing thoughts and human toll of constant cycles | [46:51–48:34]

“Did We Fix It?” – Key Solutions Proposed

• Parity for Individual Contributors:
  Recognize and reward high-performing ICs equally to managers.
• Better Forecasting and Less Over-Hiring:
  Base hiring and promotion on sustainable, data-driven projections, not short-term surges.
• Intentional Team-Building:
  Avoid knee-jerk layoffs; be clear about the human and organizational impact.
• Cultural Change:
  Redefine how companies—and employees—see success. It’s not just about moving up, but making impactful contributions at all levels.
• Personal Agency:
  Workers should assess risk, consider reward-paths carefully, and not feel forced into management for career advancement.

Tone and Takeaways

Candid, thoughtful, and slightly irreverent, the panel balances stories from the trenches with expert analysis. There’s gentle skepticism of the status quo, practical advice for those navigating uncertain times, and a call for organizations to get smarter—and fairer—about how they recognize a job well done.

Essential Listening

If you want to cut to the heart of the episode:

• Ron’s diagnosis of the problem and its historical roots: [15:14–18:51]
• Real-world consequences of management bloat and layoffs: [21:39–26:16]
• Proposed fixes and rethinking the ladder: [38:28–46:47]
• Notable quote on risk and capitalism: [46:51]

“Welcome to Capitalist… this is what we’ve signed up for. Every time you take a job, it’s your job… to see the viability of that company.”
— Ron Hetrick [46:51]

Summary by Podcast Summarizer
For more: Follow Ron Hetrick on LinkedIn and check out Lightcast’s research.