Bullish on Bagels? Figuring Out Food Fads

Summary

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We Fixed It, You're Welcome

Episode: Bullish on Bagels? Figuring Out Food Fads

Date: June 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the fascinating world of food fads, exploring how certain trendy foods—like bagels—catch fire culturally and whether those trends can be translated into lasting brands. The show's lively roundtable of hosts is joined by Talia Solomon, Founder of The Brand Economist and a fractional CMO with deep experience in food and consumer brands. They focus on the current "bagel boom," typified by Pop Up Bagels, and use behavioral science, marketing, and business strategy to answer: How can companies turn a food fad into a durable business, rather than just a fleeting moment in the zeitgeist?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Makes a Food Fad Catch On? (00:01–06:06)

• Food Fads vs. Lasting Staples: The panel discusses the difference between fleeting food trends (e.g., cronuts, rainbow treats) and foods that become embedded in daily habits.
  • A: “What's hot for a minute usually just goes back to being food.” (00:01)
• Introducing Pop Up Bagels:
  Founded in 2020 in a Westport backyard, this brand leveraged scarcity, simplicity, and social media buzz, quickly growing from word-of-mouth to physical storefronts.
  • C: “Make it feel special, keep the offering focused, create enough scarcity that people want in... let the line become part of the marketing.” (02:49)
• Historical Parallels:
  Pinkberry, Cronuts, Sprinkles Cupcakes—brands that harnessed novelty but struggled with sustaining the initial hype.

2. Attention vs. Retention—Drivers of Habit and Occasion (06:06–12:49)

• The Explore/Exploit Balance:
  Talia introduces a psychology principle: consumers are drawn to new experiences (explore) but stick to familiar ones (exploit).
  • B: “People will go seek out novelty once. But ultimately we are creatures of convenience.” (06:06)
  • B: “A Cronut feels like that is more of an explore... there’s not many occasions to go and explore over and over again. Once you've explored it... that's it.” (07:03)
• Occasion Size Matters:
  Bagels fit naturally into many routines—breakfast, lunch, afternoon snack—unlike single-use treats.
  • B: “Looking at the addressable market for the occasions that you're going after is like where I think about the size of prize in general.” (07:39)

3. The Power of Simplicity, Scarcity, and Operational Excellence (12:49–20:58)

• Scarcity as Strategy:
  Pop Up Bagels limits choice (5 bagel types, 2 schmears), tightens operations (no slicing/toasting in store), and uses minimum orders to drive demand.
  • C: “They are very intentionally designing this scarcity idea...let the line become part of the experience instead of an operational fail.” (14:27)
  • B: “There is psychology to like the paradox of choice... people are typically more satisfied with their purchase when they had less options.” (16:41)
• Don’t Compromise the Core:
  Most sales in food are still from staple products. Limited Time Offers (LTOs) are good for buzz, but shouldn’t distract from what the brand does best.
  • B: “When introducing the bright shiny object... in food we call an LTO...it's only going to be like 10% of your ticket mix... 90% of your sales and revenue is still tied to your core.” (16:41)

4. Scaling Up: Opportunities and Risks (22:38–34:59)

• Operational Simplicity Benefits Employees:
  Limited menus mean less complexity and potentially better work-life balance, easier training, and opportunities for better pay or culture.
  • D: “From that perspective, bringing new people on and training is a lot more, hopefully more straightforward. The other part is... better work life balance.” (22:38)
• Growth Dilemmas:
  Investors want expansion—more stores, new products, grocery store presence—but rapid scaling risks diluting the brand and compromising quality.
  • A: “Companies want to grow... if they stay at the level they're at, they have investors... wired for growth. So to grow, you have to do something.” (25:45)
  • C: “Is opening more of Pop Up Bagels going to be enough... or is it that they're going to expect that they want these in every grocery store chain?” (26:30)
  • D: “You have something magical with the smaller team, the small menu. Duplicate that... not moving into grocery stores.” (28:12)

5. Strategic Decision: How Should Pop Up Bagels Grow? (31:04–39:30)

• Scarcity and Brand Positioning:
  Expanding too fast or into the wrong places (e.g., grocery stores) would destroy the allure of rarity and experiential value.
  • B: “When it's on a shelf, like if part of the experience is having it warm... it's going to taste completely different and you're going to kind of... undermine yourself.” (31:04)
• Category Ownership vs. Diversification:
  Should Pop Up clone its model into pizza or tacos? The panel advises against diluting the brand; instead, double down on owning the breakfast/bagel occasion.
  • B: “If their model is...limited skus fast, like a revolving door of scarce LTOs...I would still stay in breakfast...everyone eats breakfast...you can really build routine behind.” (31:49)
  • C: “I think they may want to test [new items] in their core markets before they actually create pop up juices.” (45:13)

6. Psychology of Choice, Scarcity, and Brand Loyalty (33:07–36:53)

• We Think We Want Choice—But Less Is More:
  Referencing studies and personal experience, Talia frames consumer happiness as greater when options are limited and expectations managed.
  • B: “We think we want more... but ultimately we like less decisions. That's just, like, factually true.” (33:29)
• The Netflix Paradox:
  Too many choices can paralyze action; scarcity or curation drives satisfaction.
  • A: “Sometimes you scroll Netflix for two hours and never settle on anything.” (34:15)

7. Defending the Niche Against Competitors (36:53–39:30)

• Risk of Big Competitors Taking Over:
  Established brands (like Einstein Bros.) could replicate the experience and outscale Pop Up Bagels.
  • A: “Einstein's could take it. Any other established food companies...could say... this pop up bagels out of business.” (36:53)
• Brand, Experience & Quality as Moats:
  The only real defense: maintain unique experience, operational excellence, and product superiority.
  • D: “If their brand is being fresh, if their brand is that experience, if their brand is kind of that novelty to a degree, they can capitalize on that.” (38:15)

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Recommendations & Memorable Moments (Investor "Fix-It" Roundtable)

Key Tactical Takeaways (41:19–47:57):

• Stick to the Core: Don’t dilute the offering with too many products or stray too far from bagels/breakfast.
• Incremental, Tested Innovation:
  Try catering, delivery, or a protein/fiber bagel as long-term growth levers. Any new products should be thoroughly test-marketed before broad release.
  • B: “I would look to in two years add like a protein bagel... a high fiber bagel... just stuff like that, that expands the addressable market but like doubles down on you owning bagels.” (45:39)
• Restraint for Longevity:
  Growth should be measured and intentional. Don't pursue every revenue stream at the expense of what makes the brand special.
  • C: “Holding that core product tight is really important.” (43:57)

Notable/Quotable Moments:

• Scarcity Tactic:
  • B: "Scarcity is one... there is psychology to the paradox of choice and... we actually like less choice." (16:41)
• The Explore/Exploit Principle:
  • B: “We want to explore new things, but we also want to exploit what we know.” (06:06)
• Operational Efficiency:
  • C: “They don't have to have a whole bunch of people cleaning up a restaurant type of scenario. They have small stores, make the line part of the experience instead of an operational fail.” (14:27)
• Quality Over Hype:
  • D: “If the product sucks, I'm not buying it.” (24:44)
• Investor Reality:
  • B: “Never. Literally never.” (40:12) (On whether founders/investors ever show full restraint and stop expanding.)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------|-------------| | Episode setup and fad food premise | 00:01–02:49 | | Introduction of Pop Up Bagels | 02:49–06:06 | | Product/occasions/habit discussion | 06:06–12:49 | | Scarcity, menu curation, operations | 14:27–21:00 | | Scaling, internal culture, caution | 22:38–28:12 | | Expansion vs. restraint debate | 31:04–39:30 | | "We Fix It" investor recommendations| 41:19–47:57 |

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Conclusion & Panel Roadmap

• Stay Focused: Grow only in ways that protect the brand promise—core product, limited menu, quality control.
• Test Growth Carefully: Consider catering, expand slowly, and only add items tightly adjacent to current strengths.
• Beware the Hype Trap: Don’t let hype drive bad decisions; long-term brands are built on habit, not moments.
• Customer Experience is Key: The ritual and culture around the product can be as important as the product itself.
  • A: “Make sure that as you are operationalizing... make sure that there's always substance underneath the hype.” (41:19)

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Where to Follow

• Talia Solomon: Regularly shares behavioral science insights on LinkedIn.

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Memorable episode quote:
“We want to explore new things, but we also want to exploit what we know.” — Talia Solomon (06:06)

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For listeners and business strategists alike, the episode offers real-world insight into how to turn a food fad into an enduring brand—by combining psychology, operational focus, and a hefty dose of restraint.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to We Fixed It. You're welcome. The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride, and we try to put them back better than we found them. Today, we are talking about fad foods, not fast foods. So some of these trends come and go pretty quick. But the phenomenon of a suddenly hyped up food that gets all the buzz, captures our attention and our wallets, and then we all forget what the excitement was about. Maybe because of category saturation or cultural taste. That can change on a dime. We've seen it time and again. What's hot for a minute usually just goes back to being food. We're going to figure out how companies can hang on to a trend without going all in on something that doesn't actually have staying power. Because even after these things die down, sometimes they do become a launching pad for brands to evolve and stick around. So we want to know, what are these companies doing right, the ones that stay compared to those that fizzle out. Well, to help fix this, you know, we're going to need someone with food category experience. Say hello to Talia Solomon, founder of the Brand Economist. She's a fractional CMO and brand advisor with a background in both marketing and behavioral science along with roles in TV and consumer brands. She's worked with Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Maggiano's, Del Taco, and Ruby Tuesday. And so I'm guessing she knows her stuff. Hi, Talia. What else would you like to share with us?

[B]

Hi. Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me. For having me. Aaron and team. Yeah, that was a great background. You know, I think what makes my experience interesting is definitely I've had a nice degree of food experience, but have also spanned a bunch of different industries. So I was at Weight Watchers, which is maybe the antithesis of food, where we were helping people stop consuming as much food. I was obviously at Bravo TV and Showtime helping with content consumption or driving content consumption, and was actually at Ring Doorbell as well. So ultimately, what I think connects me, you know, what I think enables me to be effective across all those industries is, as you mentioned, like my background in consumer science and consumer psychology. So I leverage that lens across all industries I work in, particularly with food. I think there's a lot of habit formation that ultimately is what drives whether a fad stays or not. So I think that's what I'm excited to kind of look at through that habit formation lens as what lends itself to staying power.

[A]

Thanks, Talia. We're really excited to throw you into the mix today. And definitely there's something that wires and taps into our brains. When there's these phenomenons happen, we, we all play into it. So we're going to, we'll figure out why that is too. Why, why are we wired that way? Well, that's part of this. So, Melissa, the latest trendy food is something we've all known about for decades at least, and its origins are pretty humble. The bagel, all of a sudden it's premium, it's hard to get, and it's TikTok worthy. Let's start there. What's happening? Yeah.

[C]

So on the surface this looks like a bagel story, but I think it's actually bigger than that. And this is why we're really glad to have Talia here. It's really a story about how food brands catch fire now and why some turn into real businesses while others fizzle once the hype cools off. So right now, Pop Up Bagels are having a moment. You got lines out the door, social buzz, and a few other brands rising at the same time. This tells me this is not just one company winning. It's a category getting hot all at once. And one of the best examples is Pop Up Bagels because their story is basically built for this moment. They started in Westport, Connecticut in 2020 during the pandemic as a backyard bagel setup. Home baked bagels, a really tight menu pickup, only word of mouth. Then it turned into a real brand with storefronts and expansion. That's what's interesting. This isn't some legacy bagel shop trying to reinvent itself. This is really a social media native pandemic era brand that's figured out how to turn scarcity, simplicity and a great product into momentum. And that's the playbook a lot of these food hits follow. Make it feel special, keep the offering focused, create enough scarcity that people want in. We all are. That's all part of the psychology. I'm sure Talia, you'll talk about about that, then let the line become part of the marketing, let that become part of the experience. And because in food right now, attention can drive demand fast. But we've also seen this movie before, so Pinkberry had a huge cultural moment, then the category normalized. Cronuts were brilliant, viral and incredibly hard to turn into a scalable platform. I'm getting hungry talking about this. Sprinkles cupcakes help define the premium treat era. But novelty only lasts so long. And even Rita's Italian ice shows the limit of a concept when the occasion is too seasonal or a little too narrow. So we should be honest that even success stories, stories have watch outs like Crumble. Crumble is a great example. It absolutely nailed the hype phase, the branding, the social buzz, the momentum. But fast growth also creates new problems around consistency, operations, franchise pressure, and the challenge of keeping that concept focus fresh without making it harder to run. So that's not a perfect success story. It's more like they got it right early, but now the hard part starts. So really the question here is are we building food brands or just manufacturing moments? So again, Talia, I think you're a great guest for this because we can also talk about Bravo and all the moments in reality TV that they're making because the difference matters. You know, a moment gets attention. A brand has to keep earning it. So for pop up bagels, real test isn't whether people are curious today, we already know they're doing that. It's whether they can keep that quality high, keep the experience special and grow without losing what made people care about these bagels in the first place. So how do we fix it? How do you turn a food fad into something lasting instead of just the next loud thing everyone talks about?

[B]

I think first of all, to your point, like attention and retention are two different things. Like attention I can get, I can flash someone in the street, I can get their attention, but to get them to come back, it's another, you know, there's a different job to be done. And I think that obviously retention is, there's, there's novelty seeking but then there's just like I think convenience and I think that people will go seek out novelty once. But ultimately we are creatures of convenience and so I think that sometimes those are at odds with each other. I also think occasion when I think about like I'm always just thinking about occasion and meat states. And so I think for I'm actually bullish on bagels because I think that there's a lot of occasions that you would eat bagels. They're a natural like breakfast form factor. You could put eggs and cheese on them. You can then have them for lunch with tuna. Like they're the perfect blend of like what psychologists say. Like there's like in, in consumers minds there's a desire to explore which is like seek out new things and then exploit which is exploit existing information. So we want to explore new things, but we also want to exploit what we know. I can exploit that. I know that bread is good probably and boiled bread in an oven is very Good. So I know that works and then I can explore different toppings in it and stuff like that. So to me that's the perfect balance. A Cronut feels like that is more of an explore and there's not many occasions to go and explore over and over again. Once you've explored it, there's not many different ways to experience it. So I think for me the perfect balance of that explore exploit the familiarity and novelty like the bagel does that. And so I actually feel pretty, pretty bullish on bagels being a fad that actually has some staying power. And yeah, if you think if I look through the lens of also just like the occasion, Covid brought occasions and I don't think, you know, I know that pop up came up during the pandemic and so that gave them some nice tailwinds. But in general, the occasion for getting a sprinkles cookie is maybe an office birthday party. It's a kid's birthday. It's like one you've just been broken up with and you might want to go feel sorry for yourself or send your friend a breakup box. Those are inevitably less frequent occasions than like the everyday breakfast. Like the addressable market of occasions is much lower for all those others. So I think looking at the addressable market for the, the occasions that you're going after is like where I think about the size of prize in general. And then yeah, you can make some drops to drive some noise and make and keep your brain salient, but if the base occasion is already narrow or novel, I think that's when you run into trouble.

[A]

Yeah, I like what you're saying, Talia, because the actual, the bagel commodity, there's substance there, right? Can it, is it a diet staple necessity? No, not necessarily. But it is versatile and you can do a lot with it and you could keep coming back to it on a daily basis. Unlike, you know, during the Instagram craze when you had the. Everything was rainbow colored and unicorn colored and you, you would call that maybe more of an exploration where you, you pay $9 for something that's got fruit flakes in it and it tastes terrible and you get your picture, you snap it and everyone sees it, you're not probably not going to come back. It doesn't. It looks good, right?

[B]

It was a one time thing. Like you did it for the gram, but you didn't do it to actually be added to your routine, to integrate it into your routine.

[C]

I love what you're saying too because really around food especially, it's Important operationally to not misread first time excitement as loyalty.

[D]

Right?

[C]

And those moments of loyalty, those durable moments of demand that you just mentioned, I didn't even think about it this way, but this really puts it in a great perspective of like the business strategy for bagels versus cookies, ice cream, you know, cakes is very different. And it is that occasion that drives that kind of, you know, demand. And, and so I love that thinking about it from that perspective. And also, you know, we have to be common of confusing how you get this habit formation. And I think that it's really important to try to make that brand expand awareness. But the way they want to do that is very intentional. And Chino, I know you've taught, you've talked a lot about intention and design and how you set up the culture around something that has such buzz like this.

[D]

Oh, that's. Thanks Wilson for that, Tia. That's perfect. And going back to Talia's point about an occasion, right? So right now it's the big lineup, it's the popup experience, it's that novelty. What we need to do to create a habit is to make it more convenient. Right. Talia, you explained that very well. And making it more convenient is not having a line. I need to be able to incorporate this into my everyday routine. And so when we look at it from when to point it back to you wants to do on like a customer experience perspective and operations A, we can't have lines anymore. Right. For the novelty flavor is fine. But if I want to make this as part of my routine, I need people to go in, get my bagel. Whether it's breakfast, lunch, maybe it's, you know, late lunch or an office culture, they need to re brand kind of what they are. You can't just be this novelty piece anymore. So again, going back to crumble cookies, right? Capitalize on a moment. They exploded, they faltered. Because again, as you were mentioning, it's the hard part. It's how do we operationalize this. Cookies are a little harder to consume in your everyday it's look that's a treat. So you're not eating this on a consistent basis as part of your routine. Where again, going back to bagels, there's more longevity. So I think the product, there's something there. It's now creating the moment into building part of your routine. And going back to one of my favorite places, Subway.

[B]

Right?

[D]

We were talking about Subway all the time on the pod and you know, a sandwich is a sandwich and it can be dealt with the same way but you almost want to emulate the subways of the world, the Jersey Mike's of the world, where people are paying a bit of a premium for something that they can incorporate in their everyday and for that to be scalable. Because again, as the resident Canadian, I don't know much about them. To be frank, I've never really heard of them. I know this is a US based thing, but again, moving that cross borders, you want to start thinking outside of just the hype.

[A]

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[C]

Right. I think that one of the things that when doing research about Papa Bagels is really important to understand is that this is a strategy of theirs. So they are very intentionally designing this scarcity idea. So Alia, they're like going for the psychology of like oh, I want to get in line. I want, I want to get one of those bagels. And it's not an accident but, but what they're doing is also delivering on that by keeping their business really tight. So they have minimum orders. They, you know, only do 3, 6, 9, whatever that they have a set way of which you can order takeout only system. So you don't have a whole, you don't have to have a whole bunch of people cleaning up a restaurant type of scenario. Right. They have small stores make the line part of the experience instead of an operational fail and they protect that by keeping the, the, the product and the menu small and tight. I think they only have five different types of bagels and two schmears. And, and they don't. I, I was talking to Aaron about this earlier. I love this idea. So their, their whole mantra is rip and dip, which is like not. They're not going to have a toasted sliced sandwich, breakfast sandwich. You can do that at home. Take your bagel home and do it for yourself. But that keeps the line going. Do you know what I'm saying? So and, and it also from an operations side, you don't need people back there doing all of that stuff. Like if you've gone to Panera, that that's, that that's pretty impressive. Like the cutting and all, you know, getting all those boxes of bagels ready to go. So they're really kind of keeping that special feeling without really creating chaos in the operations. That's a trick that making the customers feel and I'd love Talia for you to express more about this but feel like they got something really exclusive and while still moving them through fast enough so that the line stays more exciting in an experience versus like frustrating. Gina which I think what you were saying.

[B]

Well, it feels like maybe pop up bagels was. I don't know if it was inspired by psychologists because they're definitely leveraging all the psychology levers to drive demand. So scarcity is one. I also think it sounds like I haven't been there. I actually saw one when I went to New York recently. I really need to like actually pop it and try it. I'll, I'll report back. But it sounds like even like their limited assortment a to your point, minimizes operational complexity and like enables kind of just faster throughput. But also like there is psychology to like the paradox of choice and like we actually like less choice like, we are so bombarded by choice everywhere, every second of the day that when you have a really well curated, smaller list of choice, people actually leave happier. Like, there's studies on it that, like, people are typically more satisfied with their purchase when they had less options because they don't feel like, oh, well, it could have been this, and they have this buyer's remorse. It was like there were only three. So, like, I probably chose relatively well or. So I think that, like, helps psychologically but also like, operationally, which is. Is great. And then I think also something that's like when I started working in food, which I was surprised by, but it actually makes sense is like when introducing the bright shiny object, which, you know, in food we call an LTO or a limited time offering, like, it's only going to be like 10% of your ticket mix. So what that to me means is like 90% of your sales and revenue is still tied to your core. So, like, I think as long as you don't abandon the core, and I think that's what sometimes happens is like, brands get so obsessed with like, bringing in this new bright, shiny object, and it completely, like, you know, it puts a kink in, like, the base operations. And so you're fucking up just the base cheese, pepperoni pizza to try to introduce this new cheesy puff, like, whatever monstrosity. The cheesy puff monstrosity is cool. It gets you press, it gets you more top of mind. It conveys that you're innovative and you're expansive. But, like, ultimately it's also just to convey those things. And for the 10% that want to trial you for them, that's great. But, like, it can't compromise your core. And I think that that's ultimately what happens to a lot of brands as well. And I wouldn't have realized that before I started working in food that like, it's 10%, it does its job, it makes you top of mind, it cues brand modernity and innovation. But, like, you can't bastardize the base. And I think that that's what a lot of what happens a lot.

[C]

Well, and I also think the way they do it with such a tight menu is amazing because I think that like they said in a couple of the, the places that pop up has, they have like maybe a regional smear, like a limited time offer, right? Like lavender honey smear or something like that, and it's only available for three weeks. Well, that makes it feel special when there's only two other smears. You know, you've got the plain and chive. You know that. And so I do love that you bring that up, because I find that, like, we've talked about this on, you know, that choice is great, but, like, it dilutes quality oftentimes. And, like, when you go to places like Cheesecake Factory and you've got a menu that's like 50 pages of pictures, like, where's the cheesecake? First of all, like, you know, like, now I, you know, I'm like, oh, garlic noodles, hamburger. You know, like, it doesn't even.

[B]

And there's actually studies on that, because when I was at Maggiano's, I mean, our menu was big. And you start to do sku rationalization for that exact reason. A, like, just to make operations easier. But, like, the menu looks like a Bible versus a menu so thick. And perceptually, consumers feel like when there's so much you're. When you have everything, you're not good at anything. So the quality, the food quality perceptions are much lower. You know what I mean? So it's like when you go to an Italian restaurant that has six things, you're like, they probably do those really well. But when you go to something that, to your point, it's like, can someone really make a burger as well as they make fettuccine as well as their like. So I think also perceptually. And that informs how you perceive and experience the product. So, again, that's another benefit for Pop Up. I think we should all go invest in Pop Up.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting with. With Pop up, even though they're keeping their menu simple, they're still creating. They're still owning the experience. So what, does it rip it, dip it and all that. Grip it.

[D]

Rip, grip, rip and dip.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I love the phrase bullish on bagels, by the way. That belongs on a T shirt. But. But, you know, it's like going to a pizza place where they say you're going to eat our pizza sideways, you know, at an angle. That's how you enjoy it. We only sell three pizzas. Yeah, but they've kept their cat, their menu small and simple. But they've created. They've taught you how to engage with it. And so they're not only only owning the product, which anyone can go make a bagel, which is, you know, puts them in a precarious situation for the category, but for the moment, they're owning. Here's how you consume our product, and here's how you enjoy it. And no one Else, I mean, they could try to take that, but they own, for the moment, they own that piece of bagel consumption, which is, I guess, different from other ways we've eaten bagels in the past. I've never ripped one and dipped it into the cream cheese while it's hot and all that stuff. So.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I'd like to ask Chino what you think also operationally, from. Because, because they have a limited menu, they don't have all of this other stuff going on like a Starbucks where all of a sudden you're doing all this other stuff. They have probably, I think like 15 to 20 people in, in one of their franchises or locations versus, you know, staff and I mean the whole shebang versus, you know, another bagel store like Einstein's might have 40 to 50 on staff at the location. So what do you think is happening internally for those employees that are working there?

[D]

Well, I would, I would hope. And I think again, this is one of the rare cases on the pod where we're like, you're doing everything pretty well. And I think the question was how they want, if and how they would want to scale versus keeping it a little bit more local because I think from a people and culture standpoint for the, for the team. Right. A novelty. You're working at Pop Up Bagels. Sexy, fun. Yes, there's lines, but it's again, still contained versus going anywhere else where as we talked about, huge menus, logistical nightmare. A lot of work for you. It's not that much work for the employees. So you again, from that perspective, I would want to work at Pop Up Bagels before I'd want to work at. Again, I love Subway before I want to work at Subway because there's much more work. Right. So from that perspective, bringing new people on and training is a lot more, hopefully more straightforward. The other part of this too, when we look at it from like an ownership and profit sharing and kind of compensation and maybe why people would want to work there. Again, work much better, hopefully better work life balance because you're not having to put away so many things. But is there an opportunity for profit sharing again as owners if you're keeping it tight and small? There have been many companies as well where they say, hey, actually we're actually going to one of the companies where they said, I'm making sure that all of my employees get paid 70k minimum. Again, because it's not as big. So from a cultural perspective, really helps build on employee satisfaction. Those are opportunities for them if they're not already doing that. But for me, again, I think the question is, what do they want to do next if they do want that longevity? I love this nuance to what a bagel is, which is a staple food. You can keep doing that. And I can give another example of Now, Craig's Cookies, which is a Canadian brand, came up around the same hype as Crumbl Cookie, but it was a local store here. They made really great cookies, very limited flavors. They still do that. But the demand became more and more and more. And over time they started building more locations in Toronto and now they're in different malls. But the quality is still there. And I think at the end of the day, people are coming. And if I'm going to pay a premium on a bagel or a cookie or a pizza or an egg salad sandwich from 7 11, the quality needs to be there. And I think from an operations and people perspective, if you can keep your team tight and ensure that happens, that at the end of the day is the key for that longevity. Because if the product sucks, I'm not buying it.

[A]

Right, right. And has to go the upholding the product. Like companies want to grow. That's what companies do. Like if they, if they stay this. Even if they stayed at the level they're at, they have investors, they have people backing them, they have industries watching them. They. Companies are wired for growth. So to grow, you have to do something. You have to add bigger stores, more products. You have to put them in freezer bags, in grocery stores. You have to franchise. Otherwise there's, like I said, they don't own the concept of a bagel that's been around a very long time. There's other bagel shops that are having a moment too, and riding this wave too. So what do they do to grow and sustain? And like Tina, like you said, make sure the integrity of the product doesn't suffer.

[C]

Yeah, I think that that is a big watch out for them. I think, Chino, we've seen this with other companies, the same thing where growth can break consistency in the product and the services. There's regional issues. You know, there's different needs. So again, I think that the way they've intentionally launched and also built themselves is very important to who they are. And to your point, Erin, there are a lot of other bage chains, like if you want to have the full scale, like, you know, my daughter loves that, like that Einstein bagel with eggs and everything in it, you know, avocado, everything in it, you go there. Right. That's not what this Is. But to your point, Aaron, like, is open. Are opening more of pop up bagels going to be enough for the desire to be a very successful, profitable, you know, investment for these private equity firms, for, for the people like Michael Strahan and TJ Watt who have invested in pop up bagels, you know, like, is that going to be enough or is it that they're going to expect that they want these, you know, in every grocery store chain, they want them, you know, like that. Because again, I think that kills what makes them so special right now. So I, I do think that's kind of. You're right. There's going to be a point where they're going to have to make those decisions.

[A]

Yeah, you can put one on every corner, like a Starbucks. We saw it, you know, we've seen it time and again where Starbucks became an everyday staple and built into our lives and so accessible that there were too many of them and they had to pull back.

[D]

And I think they can learn from Starbucks. And going back to that, Craig, cookies, again, you have something magical with the smaller team. The small menu. Duplicate that. I think that is the area for growth versus saying, hey, I want to be in grocery stores. Because then that changes the product, that changes the experience. It doesn't again, become part. It can become part of our routine. But if it is the novelty that they're capitalizing right, right now isn't the time to be moving into grocery stores. Although maybe people who are investing in it, not their favorite thing to hear right now. It's also about timing. And I think if they can build a stronger brand, again, I'm Canadian. I've never really heard of this outside of this podcast, Move Borders, explore different places on how to expand and create little mini versions of this. That way you turn around and now they're everywhere. And okay, hopefully that you have a large enough mass in terms of operational backing, the investment. So then maybe five, ten years down the line, maybe you become in. In grocery stores or now you're embedded in a mall or whatever.

[C]

Well, and I think that, like, you bring up a really good point, Gino, because it made me think immediately of being very intentional about where you build out. Right. So, Erin, like, instead of going to every corner, where is it that you know that you will be most successful? Like, what kinds of situations are you? Grocery store is not necessarily that.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So I would say that that should not be in their plan. That should not be in their strategy, and it shouldn't. You know, the part of, you know, Talia, you Will talk about the psychology of scarcity is that it's not on every corner, right? Like you got to drive there, you got. Or you gotta, you gotta make an effort to get there, right. And you see the line from a block away as you're walking up, you know, you're like, okay, I'm in the right place. So I think that they have to be very cautious about that expansion, you know, strategy. I think there are places where they would do well, like airports, right? Because you don't have time like to, you know, and if they're, if their thing is, it's always takeout.

[D]

It's.

[C]

There's five bagels. That's it. This is what you get. You get three. You can't do more than three, you know, then it's kind of an easy model for something like that and it gets exposure to more people. But again, I feel like going into the market thinking I will. We want to be on every shelf in every convenience store or any, every grocery store kind of hits different for somebody that seems like they've intentionally been

[B]

focused on scarcity and scarcity, but also just like product integrity. Like when it's on a shelf, like if part of the experience is having it warm or part, like it's going to be consumed in a completely different, it's going to taste completely different and you're going to kind of again, like undermine yourself if it's not like the truest, purest form of what your product can be when it's fresh. So that's also just like something to consider.

[A]

So how do they grow? Do they become pop up pizza and pop up tacos? And you said like, don't, don't cannibalize what you're known for or what you're good at. But that's another way to grow out is to say we, we own this category now. We're gonna, we have a model that works, we have simplicity that works. We have lines. We're gonna take that and we'll do ice cream, you know, what do they do next?

[B]

So if their model is to your point, like limited skus fast, like a revolving door of like scarce ltos. I don't know. I, I would still stay in breakfast. It's interesting. There was one study that I read that always stuck with me is like, as the day goes on, our desire for novelty increases. So like think about how often you eat the same thing for breakfast. But like, if I were to tell you you're going to have the same thing for dinner every night, you'd be like, that is whack. But I do. I have a Clif Bar every morning for breakfast, and I don't think twice, but if I were to have the same. And so, again, like, that. That occasion, everyone eats breakfast. And then also, it's one that you can really build routine behind because it's literally, like, people are okay to do the same thing. Like, if you can entrench yourself in that with a brand for breakfast. So, I mean, expansion.

[D]

Ooh.

[B]

I mean, I don't know. Probably catering or something like, within, like, tight radius so that, like, they're still getting their hot and fresh. But, like, if that's easy for, you know, group occasions, office parties, et cetera, obviously bigger check, low operational complexity. Throw, like, 30 bagels in a box and two big tubs and call it a day. I don't know. That feels like, like, the first growth lever I might go after, if it's not already one.

[A]

Talia, talk us through the psychology behind it. Because it's. We get drawn both ways. Where you said there's more satisfaction when there's less choices, but then there's also the Baskin Robbins or Ben and Jerry's or places where there's some of everything, or Cheesecake Factory. The menu, you just keep flipping through it like a catalog. So we're drawn to both ends of the spectrum. Yeah. So why is that?

[B]

I think we think we want more. Like, it's. It's like, what we think we need and, like, what we actually need. I think we all think that we want more. Like, but. And that's what the psychology would say is, like, we think we want more, but ultimately, at the same time, we, like. We like less decisions. That's just, like, factually true. I think when you go to Baskin Robbins and stuff, though, it's different, because I don't think them having variety undermines their ability to, like, deliver quality. Like, them having, like. Like a shaker of sprinkles and crushed Oreos and, like, chocolate chips, like, that's just enabling you to get what you want. And I don't know how, like. But I hear you. It's. But I think that ultimately people might actually be happy if they had less there, too. Like, they would just figure out what they. What they prioritize and care the most about.

[A]

That's possible. Yeah. Because when you. If you go to an old hotel, you know, and they have a TV and they have three channels and you find out we went up, you wind up watching an old movie from the 50s. You have a great time. But sometimes you scroll Netflix for two hours and never settle on anything. So they are onto something with the scarcity, which other companies do outside this category. Every time Nintendo launches something, you can, no stores have it and you see pictures of other people having it and you say, I want that. And eventually they'll get around to having enough for everybody. But they purposely keep it tight, tight control over their numbers. So it's not, you know, they didn't invent the scarcity tactic. But Talia, like you said, they certainly know how to, how to capitalize on it.

[C]

Well, I also think that the complexity is important too. Like, because they have kept the menu very simple. That complexity and that format has helped them to keep. Even though the lines are there, Chino, it doesn't really slow the service down because there's really not like a chance for people to be like, oh, I want this. You know. You know, like when you go to Starbucks and you're like, what did that person just order? Gosh, you know, like, wow, okay. You know, and I, I feel bad ordering something that's like nothing special on it. Right. You know, they're like, that's it. So, you know, I think that that also is important to note that based on what they're about, what pop up bagels is about, they really don't want to dilute that core adding complexity by adding all menu items. But, you know, I think that they could. To your point, Aaron, when you were asking like, where would they grow to? And I love all. Yeah. How you said I'd stay in something like breakfast because you just. I, I mean, I didn't even think about that. But like, you know how like you have the same granola and yogurt every morning? Like, that's what I do. I don't even think about that. Maybe a different flavor, maybe a different fruit added. But like, that could be something where they could experiment if they wanted to go outside of bagels and do like pop up bowls or something like that. And they'd have like, you know, a yogurt parfait, you know, one with bananas, one with strawberries, one with granola, whatever, and you just pick and go kind of thing. But like, again, I don't feel like it's the same sensory and satisfaction maybe as much as the bagel is, because I think people are very picky about their bagels. So I'm sure that that's part of it is that the quality has to also be sustained. And they obviously have that and they

[A]

have a following around that, well, what could happen? Not only do they have other competitors that look like them and have also capitalized on this moment the same way they have, but there are, there's Einstein Bagels has been around and they've got a footprint and they don't, you know, the pop up doesn't own bagels. So if Einstein figures out how to make a bagel that has the rip and grip experience to it, you know, they, they might claim the category back for themselves. Just like we've seen with when the freeze dried candy popped up, you know, three years ago or, or so and, and you could find at gas stations there were Skittles but they were exploded Skittles because they were freeze dry Skittles eventually said, all right, thanks for the idea. We're gonna, we're gonna legitimize it now. You get, you buy Skittles popped. They're called Goodbye everybody else that has a freeze dry machine in their garage. This thinks this is ours now. So you know, Einstein's could take it. Any other established food companies that want to go into bagels with a much bigger footprint and much, you know, bigger bank accounts could say all right, we get this, this, this fresh baked bagels rippable experience. We can do that. And they, they might rush in to put something like this, this pop up bagels out of business even though they have substantial investment like everybody wants in when these types of things happen.

[D]

But I think their leg up and I totally agree with you there Aaron. Like there's always going to be a competitor, there's always a bigger fish that can eat that tinier fish. But if their brand is being fresh, if their brand is that experience, if their brand is kind of that novelty to a degree, they can capitalize on that because Einstein's or grocery store or Tim Hortons even, that's not the same experience. So I think what they need to do is double down on what's working which is you know, the small menu, great team and people that are there again, that novelty when it's there I think again as Talia said beautifully, breakfast like that is such a brilliant idea and maybe it's in the same grab, you know, grab and go technique that they're doing now and finding something that is similar as an exploration, right as that new novelty. But remember where you come from and I don't feel like they need to change something that's working for them. I think stay true to who you are, keep doing what you're doing and then explore a little bit how you can Grow, but don't forget why you're here.

[C]

Yeah. I wonder how much is too much, too. Like, Erin, I, you know, you really got me thinking about, like, growth and how much profit that the, you know, in investment. Like, would there be a point where, you know, the, the founder and the team says, we're happy at this level. Right. Like, we're happy being, you know, creating those moments of scarcity, of creating the highest level of quality in a, in these five bagels. Right. You know, like, I wonder if anyone ever actually gets to that level of satisfaction in terms.

[B]

Never. Literally never. Yeah, I wish.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But it would take a lot of restraint and you'd have to turn down a lot of paychecks and a lot of investors who, who want in. And they'll show you the golden ticket and say, we will back you. You'll be in every, you know, every corner in America. It takes, it would take a, a very steadfast founder to say, I'm happy. I want to be able to drive to every location. I want to every morning. I want to be able to get up and engage with the customers that enjoy our products. You know, they, they'd really have to put passion over profit.

[C]

Well, and we've seen that with Ben and Jerry's, with, like when we talked about Reese's, when we talked about a lot of these brands, you know, like there you, you lose something a lot of times when you sell your soul to, you know, the higher, big profitable corporation or whatever, whatnot. And so that would, that will be a very sad day when they reach that juncture. But I know they're not there yet, but that is a watch out, you know.

[A]

All right, well, we're not investors and we're not not, we're not here to give investor advice. But for the moment, let's pretend we're investors in, in pop up bagels. What are we going to tell them? We're going to tell them, stick to breakfast. Don't try to trip over yourself and do too many things that you haven't even test market tested yet. Just because your model works with bagels doesn't mean it works for adjacent categories. Or even lunch or even dinner. You're good at one thing. You proved it. We'll say, keep your menu small. There's no reason to do these. The limited time offer lto things that get people, they're popular enough yet already. They don't need to do those types of things yet where it's, it's the flashy look at me thing that drives 10% of sales when all they really want to do is sell the bagels they already sell. So keep it that maybe expand through catering, maybe delivery if they can figure that part out and create that at home experience just as far as, as fresh as in store and keep, I would say keep being the loudest voice in the room. You know, just like get your customers that want to do the user generated content, figure out how to, how to appreciate and reward for that and just make sure that as you are operationalizing and you're figuring out how to get people through faster and more efficiently, maybe do add a couple of parallel offerings that are grab and go, that are breakfast suitable so that you're answering to more of, you're creating more of a habitual kind of need beyond just the bagel experience. But, but that's keep to your core customer and don't try to exploit it to the point where you've, you've exhausted something because we see these things that get a two, you know, two year, one year, maybe three year shelf life at best. If you really want to be at it for the long haul, keep at what you're doing. Make sure the hype stays, but make sure that there's always substance underneath the hype. If we do that, Chino, did we fix the situation?

[D]

I think we've definitely fixed it. You know, I think they need to figure out what is next. What does growth look like? Do you want to stay kind of small and local or do you want to grow into a huge beast? And I think there's different options for both. My recommendation, stick small, try to duplicate that in other places if you can, but keep doing what you're doing.

[A]

Okay. I love it. Melissa, pretending you're an investor for hypothetical purposes, if, if we put gave this all to Papa Bagels, are you happy with this roadmap for them?

[C]

I am, I, I think that we've brought up some really good watch outs for them. I think that the fixes for them are really continuing to design their experience expansion with intention and around their brand promise, you know, so really if they can keep that focus, I think that they will do well and not just chase every revenue opportunity because not every revenue opportunity is created equal. Holding that core product tight is really important. I think that's really what saves them right now in terms of as they are expanding and really kind of standardizing. This is coming out of Chino's verbiage, but standardizing their operation playbook before their skip, before they start scaling in large units, just making sure that you know, the onboarding and training for their staff, that their specs, maybe they need patents on their bagel dough, you know, the bake timing, that everything, everybody knows exactly what is needed so that they can create the greatest product ever. And then really I think when they think about expansion, when we talked about that with intention, right, like they may want to test those in some of their core markets before they actually create pop up juices.

[D]

Right.

[C]

They may want to just have, okay, for this month we're going to do cold pressed carrot juice and cold pressed ginger juice and have those offerings available and see what that intake looks like before they start expanding anything. Because otherwise I would stay stick to the bagels because Talia had so many reasons why the psychology of breakfast and bagels makes sense. So Talia, what do you think?

[B]

Well, it's funny because I was going to say like, I think, I think that when we mentioned adding on like you know, grab and go yogurt or something like that, like that's 10 years from now their name is pop up bagels. And like you just want to build super salience for that. Like be the. When anyone thinks about breakfast and bagels like you are the go to in a customer's mind. So I think you established that and doubled down on that. I think growth, what growth could look like is if I were then my roadmap and it might not be so easy but I would like look to in two years add like a protein bagel just to expand your addressable market. For people that are like, oh I don't want to eat bagels all the time. They're high carb, they're not healthy. Now we've got a solution for you that tastes great. A high fiber bagel. Just stuff like that, that ag expands the addressable market but like doubles down on you. Owning bagels I think is probably and those aren't necessarily flash in the pan ltos. It's not like a unicorn bagel. It's like something that if you can bring it in as an lto just to like limit, you know, commitment to ingredients that you're not sure how, how they're gonna, how they're gonna run test it out and then I bet you that it would stay as a full time permanent item because again it's, it's novel but it's core. And so I think that maybe adding something like that to the menu down the line could be something, a growth layer as well. Incremental traffic and honestly you could probably upcharge so increases chep as well. So it's like that double double header.

[A]

I like it. And you know, everything we're proposing has some restraint to it. So, you know, you will see growth, but we'll see incremental growth and it will be a relatively flat trajectory for a while. We're not going to see the giant spikes that investors love to see. So if they will ride right at this out with us and, and pull in some restraint, which companies don't tend to have a lot of restraint and investors, but if they squeeze every last drop out of this moment, well, let's meet back here here in two years and see how, see how they did. If they listen to us, they'll probably be around and they'll probably be doing pretty well. Well, thank you, Talia. I'm, I'm really happy with our combined fixes. If we kept talking, we probably could have come up with a dozen more. But we are going to wrap up our episode. We're out of time. Before we go big thanks to Chino Belissa, of course, Talia Solomon for being our featured guest. Talia, let our listeners know. How can we all keep up with the work that you're doing?

[B]

Sure, just follow me on LinkedIn. I have a pretty consistent presence there. I'm constantly sharing different behavioral science and psychology insights as it relates to marketing for the clients that I'm currently working on or just some that I have an opinion on. So follow along.

[A]

Thank you so much Talia. And if you at home have your own fix for us and for pop up bagels, send it on in at my fix at we fixed it pod.com that's my fix at we fixed it pod.com we'd love to hear from you. You can also share where to find the best bagels wherever you are. We travel, we like listener suggestions, and when the next food trend hits, we'll probably fall for it too. We'll wait in line with you next week. We will keep it fresh with a whole different topic. So line up for that one and we will see you next time. We hope you enjoyed this episode of We Fixed It. You're welcome. We go into every episode somewhat cold and nothing we say should be construed as legal advice, financial advice, or anything that would get us in trouble. All trademarks, IP and brand elements remain property of their respective owners.