Can Anxious People Date Avoidants? We're Talking Attachment Styles

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson
Episode: Can Anxious People Date Avoidants? We're Talking Attachment Styles
Date: April 16, 2026
Host: Paul C. Brunson (WNTT)
Guest: Dr. Amir Levine

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the complex world of attachment styles—particularly the interplay between anxious and avoidant individuals in relationships. Host Paul C. Brunson is joined by Dr. Amir Levine, psychiatrist and co-author of the bestselling book "Attached." Together, they unpack myths, examine practical tools, and offer eye-opening neuroscience insights about how people connect, communicate, and find security in themselves and others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Do We Choose Our Partners?

• Attraction Isn’t About Attachment, Initially
  • Dr. Levine argues attraction is often based on subconscious factors like smell and looks, not attachment style.
    • “We choose the people that we're attracted to and...a lot of it has to do with much more rudimentary stuff like how they smell, what they look like. Then we find out who they are.” [01:54]
  • Studies show avoidant-avoidant relationships are rare but do exist; attachment is more a spectrum than strict categories.

2. Attachment Styles Across Genders

• Myth-Busting Gender Stereotypes
  • Media often paints women as anxious or secure, and men as avoidant. Dr. Levine says that’s wrong:
    • “There's plenty of men that are anxious, plenty of them.” [05:25]
  • It’s difficult to gather precise data due to the spectrum nature of attachment, but both men and women can be found in any category.

3. What Happens When Like Attracts Like?

• Avoidant + Avoidant / Anxious + Anxious Couples
  • Avoidant/avoidant pairs might lack the glue (sustained connection), but sometimes these relationships work if mutual distance is accepted:
    • “If it's working for them, that's fine. If it's not, let's find a way to fix it.” [07:54]
  • The key is recognizing diverse relationship dynamics, including open relationships, and focusing on what works for all involved.

4. Practical Tools for Building Secure Attachment

• The C.A.R.P. Framework
  • Dr. Levine shares the "Five Pillars of Secure Attachment":
    • Consistent
    • Available
    • Responsive
    • Reliable
    • Predictable
  • “It's like a two-factor authentication...you have to make sure that [the] other person experiences you as reliable and predictable.” [10:29]
• Carp with Your SEIMIs (Seemingly Insignificant Minor Interactions)
  • The little things—like returning texts or saying hello—are key to rewiring the brain for security:
    • “These seemingly insignificant minor interactions...are instrumental in actually changing the brain, the molecular structure of the brain.” [12:25]

5. Making the Tools Work for Different Styles

• Avoidants need to be deliberate about small acts of connection, even if it’s counter to their instincts.
  • “You have to learn to do these little things that will give you your space. What you're doing now is the opposite of what you want to do.” [13:54]
• Anxious individuals should redirect their attention toward secure people in their lives, not chase those who give mixed signals.
  • “Instead of like, 'why aren't you texting me?'...text the person who will text you back and sort of really create—like shift your social media.” [09:19]

6. Attachment Across Different Relationships

• It’s possible to be secure with a partner and avoidant with friends, co-workers, or others:
  • “You can also be avoidant with a co-worker or even one particular person...” [17:37]
• Predictable patterns (“attachment homeostasis”) prevent triggering anxiety in relationships:
  • “If you call me once a week, I'm not going to expect you to call every day...you've created a baseline.” [19:23]

7. On the Neuroscience of Exclusion & Loneliness

• The brain's “social surveillance system” is wired to hate exclusion, explaining why even minor social slights or waiting for a text can feel so painful:
  • “Our brain hates being excluded...areas that are associated with pain and distress and self-scrutiny really come online in a huge way.” [23:53]
• Even negative or superficial interactions are better than no recognition:
  • "It is better to be noticed by despicable people...our brain still believes that we're in the middle of the food chain." [28:29]

8. A Story of Making It Work: Anxious + Avoidant

• Explicit communication can make these pairings work:
  • One woman told her avoidant partner:
    • “For me, it's very important that people respond to me in time. And if you're not gonna respond, actually, I'm gonna hit up your phone. And eventually, it's just not gonna work. So I'm just letting you know right there.” [32:06]
  • The avoidant partner, though unresponsive with friends, agreed:
    • “With her, he does respond...they've been together for over a decade now, and it's really working.” [32:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Secure Relationships:

  • “Good relationships are where you actually don't really think about your partner hardly at all...it gives us permission to spread our wings and fly when we have that secure...base.” [34:13]
  • “Secure relationships are often boring.” [35:02]
  • “They never work on TV because there's no drama.” [35:11]

• On Blaming Parents and the Origin of Attachment Styles:

  • “There's this myth that avoidants are the way they are because they were not given enough emotional support as children. But I've had patients who were loved and coddled.” [15:02]
  • “We've done so much sort of blame the parents in psychology...the holy grail of science is to find causality, and it's so hard.” [15:47]

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Important Timestamps

• Choosing Partners & Attraction – [01:54]
• Attachment and Gender Stereotypes – [05:19]
• Avoidant/Avoidant Relationships – [07:22]
• Practical Tools: C.A.R.P. – [10:29]
• Minor Interactions & Neuroscience – [12:25]
• Predictability in Relationships – [19:23]
• Social Exclusion Research (“Cyberball/Still Face” Experiments) – [21:53] to [27:17]
• Communication in Anxious/Avoidant Pairings – [32:06]
• Secure Relationships are “Boring” – [35:02]

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Conclusion

This episode gives listeners both a scientific and heartfelt look at attachment, busting cultural myths while offering actionable advice. Dr. Levine’s C.A.R.P. framework stands out as a practical roadmap for anyone—anxious, avoidant, or secure—seeking more fulfilling relationships. Above all, the conversation insists: understanding attachment is not about assigning blame, but about learning the patterns, communicating needs, and nurturing bonds that help us thrive.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Dr. Amir Levine, your book I Was Privileged Enough to Read is also one of the most important books.

[A]

The whole thing of this book is devising tools to help the anxious and the avoidant how to navigate their social world better to create a secure, enriched environment.

[B]

So this resonates with me. I remember reading that part of the book thinking, this is wild.

[A]

Really what it looks like, what it really requires is something that I've come to put.

[B]

Hey there. Before we begin the episode, I just want to say thank you for choosing we need to talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life and I want to continue to share it with you. So hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast. Now, you said something also that I agree with, but help everyone with this. So do avoidance look for other avoidance as romantic partners. If you're anxious, do you look for other people who are anxious? Like do secures look for secure?

[A]

How do we.

[B]

Who are we looking for?

[A]

So I personally believe, and I know maybe some people are going to have an issue with it, but that's my personal belief, just from understanding sort of biology, I think that we choose the people that we're attracted to and we don't know who they are. And I think a lot of it has to do with much more rudimentary stuff like how they smell, what they look like. I think it's much more that and then we find out who they are. That's what I think. But the studies actually show that oftentimes they don't really show who are you attracted to, but they show what kind of relationships. So they didn't find that many avoidant and avoidant relationship. Although then since then I've had patients who were in avoidant avoidant relationships. And also I've encountered people in avoidant avoidant relationships. And again, also what's important on this questionnaire, you'll see it's more of a spectrum.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's not like all black or white and people say, oh, avoidants never care about Other people, But I've had many. Like, I've had patients, and I know people who are very caring but are still avoidant. So the way that they will translate it'll be. Remember one patient, he said, oh, I was like, he started dating someone, and he was great, and he was really great, but his back was hurting, and they were on a plane, so. So he moved forward to the seat in front because there's, like, room so he can stretch out. And then he just stayed there until the end of the flight. And then when they landed, his sort of new girlfriend was, like, so hurt and upset. It's like. Because he didn't go back to sit next to her. Yes. But it didn't even occur to him. It's not like he didn't care about her. He was dumbfounded. But, like, why was she upset? And I find that to be more the case with avoidance. They don't really know. Oftentimes there's a movie that I like that I love that really shows you a lot about attachment styles these 500 days of summer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because in there, the woman is the avoidant, and they have. There's that bar scene where she talks about. He said, no, I don't want to run a relationship. I don't actually believe in love. And I'm fine being on my own. I'm happy being on my own. And the guy who's actually anxious and kind of, like, falling for her, he's like, well, what do you mean you don't believe in love? It's not like Santa Claus. And then his friends tell her, oh, wow, you're a dude. You sound like a dude. So that's why I say, they're all the blind leading the blind. They don't understand. No, she's not a dude. She has an avoidant attachment styles. Women have avoidant attachment styles too. Not only men. So many women that I talk to, they'll quietly say, yeah, I'm avoidant. I just don't like too much clothing. I'm that way. But once you explain to avoidance, your response is not everyone else's response. You are the minority. Like the fact that when something bad happens to you, you don't reach out to someone for help, that you solve it yourself. That doesn't mean that other people don't need help.

[B]

Yes, this is true. You just said something that also. I'm not sure if I've seen stats on this is or do, because the media, I feel like pop culture presents women as predominantly secure or anxious and men as predominantly avoidant. I think so.

[A]

Wrong. Yeah.

[B]

If you're looking at gender splits, if you will, do you have any data on that?

[A]

I think that the majority are. It's really hard to do these, to gather these data in the population, and especially now, because we know that it's more of a spectrum and they don't really look at it more in categories, which is also something that has changed a lot. And it was important for me to mention in the book and really explain about that more what it means because it gives us a chance to shift and change. But I think the way that I like to answer that is that there's plenty of men that are anxious, plenty of them. And then, like, even I can think about a father of a friend who's like this really big, tough surgeon, and like, every few hours he's calling his wife, what's happening? What's happening? And the wife, everything is still the same.

[B]

Nothing has changed since five minutes ago when you called last.

[A]

The good news is the majority, like, there's a good chunk of secure people out there. And actually, I use that fact in part of that secure priming therapy to help people insecure the way that you help to help people who are insecure, to teach them how to navigate their social world better. So to create what I like to call a secure, enriched environment, because that's how our brain changes. Okay.

[B]

Okay. If I can ask just one more on the choosing in the attaching.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I love. Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't.

[A]

I love talking about that.

[B]

Yeah, I know. This is your area too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Is. So you're saying, okay, we first are attracted by physical consent, and I'm with you. I feel that's the same way. And then we either get lucky, like me, and say, oh, my gosh, I'm in a partnership with someone who's secure or not. What happens if you are either anxious or you are avoidant or fearful avoidant, and you're in a relationship with someone just like you? Is that cause for leaving the relationship

[A]

when you're fearful, avoidant, or you're avoidant in your relationship with someone just like you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then there's also the anxious. Anxious and the anxious avoidant. Okay. Yes. So what they find is sometimes with avoidance, like, when they try to get together because they're both. I'll do my own thing and then I'll do my own thing. And then sometimes, though, okay, they're both doing their own thing and there's no glue that puts them together. So sometimes that doesn't Work out because of that. Like if everybody like if one does like but not always because they're very attracted to one another in a way it can work. No one expects anything of the other. So if it may not be working because they might be going off and doing like sort of like. But sometimes even that works. I'm going to say, oh, cheating on one another. But if they're in agreement and they have an open relationship, I mean or they have like there's so many different. There's more and more now. People accepting different types of sort of close, non ethical and I'm not again because I stay. I love this whole way of looking from the attachment perspective. Is it working for them? That's fine. If it's not, let's find a way to fix it. The whole thing of this book is devising tools to help the anxious, the fearful, avoidant and the avoidant. And they each, it's the same tools but each attachment style has to learn to use it differently. And you can use it from actually from your dating profile you can start there and like from the first date you can use some of those tools.

[B]

Okay, so let's talk about the tools and the practicality. So let's start with anxious because I think there's a lot of people who place themselves in that category for some reason. If you are anxious, you are single or you're in a relationship with someone who's not secure but you're anxious practically what should you be doing?

[A]

Right. So I think it's not that they're the vocal minority, right? Yes, they're the vocal minority because they're suffering. It's like I need help. Avoidant's like I don't need anyone, don't help me. I'm finding my own way. And then like secures are just busy having their own good relationships. You don't hear about them. And that's why in fact they exist in our life and we just don't even pay attention to them because we think that they're kind of boring. They always text us back. There's never any drama so we don't barely notice them. And that's part of the big shift that I help people do is like no, these are like the sort of the gemstones in your life instead of like really. Which anxious really tend to do is pay a lot of attention to those who haven't texted back those like shift your attention, don't look there even though your brain wants you to look there. But we can control it, shift it. And instead of like, why aren't you texting me? Well, like question mark, are you there? Then text the person who will text you back and sort of really create like shift your social media. So I'll talk about the tools.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Really what it looks like, what it really requires is something that I've come to call the five pillars of secure attachment, which consists about, you have to learn to be consistent, available, responsive. And then it's not enough to think, oh, I'm consistent, available, responsive. I'm so good, I'm so great. It's also important, it's like a two factor authentication. You have to make sure that other there, the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable. And this is the acronym, I call it carp. Consistent, available, responsive, reliable, predictable. And if you can learn how to do that, and you can also teach others how to be that way with you, then you've created yourself a secure environment.

[B]

Interesting. Okay, so this is. If you are avoiding his will, you should be using carp.

[A]

Yes, but in a different way than anxious.

[B]

Ah, okay.

[A]

Yes. Okay, so another very important part. So this is the part from the attachment sort of world that I sort of, I created that tool there, but then I married it together with something that I took from the lab from my bench work, which is really understanding how the brain changes on the most fundamental way. And you know, when people go to therapy, they think the change will come from talking about my childhood events and drawing sort of inferences from childhood to adulthood. Question. And there's a chapter about that, but. Or talking about the really big difficult things that have happened to me over my life. But from the brain's perspective, we often miss what I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life. Those little things like my interaction here with you now, like if I said hello, I didn't say hello to the person in the elevator this morning, did I communicate? Did I create a bond? Like, did I even just a little bit of an interaction with the person that brought me here? So those seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life. As an epigenetic neuroscientist learned how the brain changes, really on the structural level. These are instrumental in actually changing the brain, the molecular structure of the brain. And in fact, if you remember any of this conversation tomorrow, or if the listeners remember any of this conversation tomorrow, there's been some structural changes in your brain and in their brain. It's not enough to be consistent, available and responsive in those big, big gestures. You have to make sure that you're carp in all of those CMEs and that helps you. That is like the key to becoming carp. And avoidance and anxious. Have to deal differently. Like avoidant. Have to learn to. They're like the mother in the strange situation test. They're the ones who lead in the room. And then the child is there like, what's happening? Save me, help me. And it's like, what do you want? I was just there with you for like a long time. Now I need my time alone. Well, you can't just leave the room like that. That's kind of like. That's from. Our nervous system hates it. It's just like we have like this thing that constantly. You have to. Even a small text, you have to learn to do these little things that will give you your space. What you're doing now is the opposite of what you want to do.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it backfires.

[B]

So this resonates with me. And this actually even supports. Because, you know, it's so fascinating what you're saying to me because looking at my data from the topography calculator hearing, what you're saying is I realize that I show up as an avoidant with my friends. I have a high level of avoidance with my. Even though these are my friends, I am notoriously the one who doesn't message. I won't send a message. I won't even respond back sometimes. And some people get highly upset and I say, and I'll apologize three weeks later.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it sounds like what you're saying I need to do is I need to be carp with my simis.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So if you could.

[A]

And you even say it yourself, some people get upset.

[B]

Yes, they do. And I'll wait for weeks and then I'll apologize. But my brain, something. I don't know what it is, but in my brain, it's just that I don't need to respond.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right now.

[A]

I really. I love that you gave that example of yourself because in the book I actually start the chapter about avoidance about like the. And I think I even call it being comfortably close with a measure of distance. Something like that. It's like I really tried to normalize it because there's this myth that avoidance are the way they are because they were not giving enough emotional support as children. But I've had patients who were like, loved and coddled as children.

[B]

And I was.

[A]

Yeah. Beyond belief. And it's just like. And we've done so much sort of blame the parents in psychology, like, gay people are gay because they've had, like, distant fathers. You know how many gay people I know. That have, like, loving, doting fathers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's just like. It's just like we've made those connections. And I don't blame people. Our human brain is built. And that's why I wrote a whole chapter about causality. Our human brain is built to make those connections. And actually, when I became a scientist, I discovered how hard it is. It's like the holy grail of science is to find causality. And it's so hard. And look at all the papers that are recently getting retracted or redacted because it's just so hard to prove these claims.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so many times we failed and blamed the whole generation of mothers for causing schizophrenia. Whole generations of mothers, what's called the refrigerator mothers for always. The mother, for some reason, the father get a break for causing autism. Like horrible things that people have to carry. And even this whole thing about. Then you start looking at your past in a certain way. And that actually is a form of insecure priming, because oftentimes secure people are able to look at their past not just from an idealized way, but in more measured ways. Like, yeah, some bad things happen. Also, some good things happen. So I got, like, I got sort of, you see, I went over there because I'm very passionate about that. But yes, to tell you, I find there's. What is supported about avoidance is that some animals even you can start with. And I give an example. Like, some dogs love closeness. They're going to be. You can see on TikTok, they're like they're having their face in your face all the time, they're so clingy. And then some dogs, they still love you, but they'll stay at the edge of the bed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So this whole negotiating distance and closeness, it's part of our biology.

[B]

And we do that with different members of our. Of our being. Right. So are you saying that we could be secure maybe with a partner, Avoidant with a co worker? Yeah.

[A]

I mean, remember, you still fall under that secure sort of like, sort of box there. But no, but you can also be avoidant with a co worker or even one particular person, maybe someone who's, for some reason, whatever Jill did, she was able to kind of like draw you in. And I often say that avoidants are like stray cats. You have to put the milk out and then they come on their own terms to drink the milk. And I don't know if that's what happened with you or not.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

But I. Whatever she did, she was able to draw you in and make you feel comfortable with whatever closeness she offered you. So you were able to like, okay, this is safe. No one is trying to sort of like, how come you're not answering? How come, you know, I can live with this. This feels comfortable. And you can potentially come and go with less drama and like, this just feels more comfortable. But with, but with friends, you still may not want all that huge closeness. But what I'm trying to teach avoidant, it's like there's a way that you can do it. You can say, hey, sorry, really busy couple of days, we'll get back to you in a week. Because it's not just about responding right away. That's what people have to understand. And they're really going to great lengths because it's a little bit more nuanced than that. It's all about a We form something that I call an attachment homeostasis. Like a We all have an idea of a baseline. If you call me once a week, I'm not going to expect you to call every day. And it's not going to trip my alarm that you're not calling in the middle because I expect you to call once a week. If they learn that you're going to text them. And some of your friends, I'm sure, have learned and don't take issue with this.

[B]

Yes, yes, they have. They're like, this is Paul.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. This is him. So you've created a baseline.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you can. And I have an example in the book about a mother whose kids went off to college and whenever she called them, they were very dismissive and it was painful for her. And the way that she found a way to connect with them and keep that attachment thread is by their shared fitness apps. And so they saw each other. They sort of thumbs up for. They do it for her when she exercises. She does it to them. And there's that again. That connection keeps. Kept alive.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

So I think it really depends on how you use social media. If you use it to connect with people and meet up more and do more things then. And I think the whole loneliness thing is also, it's more from what I understand, I'm not a big loneliness expert, but from what I understand is it's more of an inner feeling because sometimes the same people can have the same amount of connection but some feel I'm all alone in the world and others will feel no, I'm connected to others. So that actually is very important. I'm glad that you're actually mentioning that because I really start the book secure about something that our brain really loathes. Our brain really. And that's like one of the most important things to understand. Our brain hates being excluded or it hates that disconnect. So it's something that's called the soluble. I call it the sore bull effect. It's actually, it's based on the cerebral experiments and that's when basically it's this amazing body of research where they had like you basically you're playing very rudimentary video game. When you're like one of the characters and then you play with two other people, you play a game of catch and all of A sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And what they find is they find both a psychological, a really profound psychological effect, but also the brain effects. And the brain effects are that areas that are associated with pain and distress and self scrutiny really come online in a huge way. And then psychologically it makes you feel less in control of your life. It makes you have less self esteem and that life is less meaningful. The things that you think are specifically related to how you feel about yourself are actually related to how you connect with others. And the other thing that they found is that it's almost impossible to mitigate. So in one experiment they gave people money. It's like whenever they're not going to throw in your direction, we're going to give you a prize. No, you still had the same horrible effects of exclusion. And then in one, I don't know how they even approved that study, but they had like minority students, like they were told that the other two are members of the kkk.

[B]

Yes. I remember reading this in the book.

[A]

Crazy because still despicable. People are playing with you and they're stopping. Why would you care? Their brain still cares.

[B]

No, it does. I've actually, I remember reading that part of the book thinking, this is wild. However, I understand. I recall being in spaces where I felt dismissed just by someone looking at me. And I cared about that because I saw them connect with someone else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And is this in the book? Is it still facing?

[A]

So the cyberable effect is when you're like, there's two other. Like this exclusion by more and then still facing. I'm glad you brought that up. Is like, so you can be also, sorry, bold with only one person when all of a sudden they disconnect. And that's based on the still face experiment. And it's kind of like the same idea, it's looking at the same neurocircuitry, that surveillance system. And what happens when we disrupt it? Basically what happens when you don't text your friend back and that you disrupt that connection that they feel with you and how horrible it feels to them. Sorry to bring that up.

[B]

I'm seeing it. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yes. But the thing is, so in the still face experiment, they ask again those poor mothers and their infants to come in and they sit them across from each other and they ask them, oh, you do what you do with a child and you babble with them. And the child, you can see it on YouTube, it points things and they're having a great time. And then they ask her, okay, look, Bad and look back and just have completely blank face. And the child immediately reacts to sort of the change or the disruption in the connection and tries to get the. It's actually hard to see that video. I have to say, every time I see that kind of like. But it's fine. It's really important because you get it. You understand how this neurocircuitry works. Also in adults, the child, hey, look at this, look at this. It tries to grab her attention back, her attention. And when she keeps going, they start to get upset. They look away and they withdraw. And then they start really like crying and get really upset. That's the part that's hard to watch. But then quickly the mother re engages and they start smiling again. There's a happy ending, but it's good. But it just showed to me. I always show this still facing experiment to patients because I want to explain to them, and especially to avoidance, what happens. It's like when you're. When you sort of like cut off that attachment thread. And especially people avoidance, when they fight, there's like, okay, I'm not responding anymore. I can't do it anymore. And then they'll just say, but what do you want? I'm not saying anything. What do you want from me? Not from a place. But they're not realizing that they're actually engaging in a really. From the point of view of the brain, they're engaging in an incredibly aggressive act. It's like no less. It's painful. It's. No, it's like. I mean, I don't know, maybe it's like. It's just that, like, from the point of view of the brain, like, it's almost like you're slapping someone across the face.

[B]

It's hard if you cut off human connection. Seems like that is one of the worst things you can do to the brain.

[A]

Right. I really, really understood it when I was like, several years ago, I went in a safari in South Africa and they took us on a little walk out in the wild. Usually on a little scar. You feel protected. No. We were walking outside.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we had one person with a rifle behind us and with a rifle in front of us. But they told us to sort of really make sure we walked in a single file. And they told us to make sure that we don't open up spaces between us because. And then whenever someone stalled for a moment and was looking open up his face, they would sort of like, call out, close the gap. Close the gap. And I realized how what that brain neurocircuitry was designed to do and how it was designed to protect us during in that era, not where we live now. And so not being noticed and even a momentary lapse of being noticed could have made the difference between survival or being prey. It's almost like a basic instinct that our brain. It's a social instinct that our brain has.

[B]

Isn't that interesting?

[A]

Yeah, it's fascinating. It's mind blowing.

[B]

It is better to be noticed by despicable people. So we still want the connection because

[A]

our brain still believes that we're in the middle of the food chain. What I try to do with this book is tell them is to sort of like to teach the brain you're not in the middle of the food chain anymore. And so for someone anxious, for someone avoidant, you have to learn, if you actually do, a little bit of carb will get you a lot more space than you think, because then you're not going to have to apologize. And it's like, no, it's just so much better. You get your space by being carb. For someone who's anxious, you are more sensitive to picking up on non carp stuff or sort of non carp seamis. And what you really want for someone anxious to transform, to become more secure, you want to encircle yourself in a secure environment. So I call it like the carp intervention. When someone is not. Then if I were your friend. Sorry, I don't know if it's okay for me to go back to that example, but if I were your friend, I would say, hey, but it's like really not to like, oh, I'm so upset that you didn't text me and you don't care about me. It's like, you know, to me, it's really important that people respond to me in time. So even if you just send me a little emoji, that will be fine for me. It'll show me that you're there, that you care, and that's enough for me. And then the next time, when you're ready, you can sort of like engage with me again.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I would do that. That would be my carp intervention with you.

[B]

I see it.

[A]

So I teach people how to do like, carp intervention and then I give them other tools of what happens when that carp intervention doesn't work. And it's really basically about shifting your focus from people to the people who are more secure in your life. Because I told you, we all have them. But oftentimes we more like notice those who aren't and engage more with that because that's where our brain takes our attention to. And instead, like, look, we have this treasure chest here. And I teach people to kind of, like, shift their attention to that.

[B]

Yeah. Which is why I've always heard stories of people who are anxious chasing people who are avoidant. And it's this never ending.

[A]

Never ending.

[B]

Yeah. Never ending. No, there's no pleasure in that.

[A]

No, it's more, even more than that. Before you even know the person, say. Because then it's not even personal. It's like from day number one, hey, I like, for me, it's just in general, with my friends and even the people that I'm dating, it's really important for me that people are carping my life. So what you've done there, you've kind of like planted a seed. Now there's an expectation. You told them what you want, and now you can see are they going to be able to live up to it or not. And I have an example of that. Like, one of my patients, she dated someone who is actually more of an avoidant. It's like, maybe similar to your story with Jill, but she's like. She's. She like. So I think after a few times that he didn't respond to her, then she said, you know, really? Hey, look, I really like you, but for me, it's very important that people respond to me in time. And if you're not gonna respond, actually, I'm gonna hit up your phone. And so. And eventually, it's just not gonna work. So I'm just letting you know right there. And then he said, you know, I never really respond to people. And it's true. All of his friends, he doesn't really respond to things. I'm like, he does. He's amazed. And everybody knows. All of his friends know. No one even. Like, most of his friends don't even expect him to respond because they know he's just not going to respond. But he said, you know what? I hear you, and I'm going to try. And with her, he does respond. And then times when he doesn't respond, she's hitting up his phone, she'll go on like 10 times, and he's fine. Like, he accepts it. And he's like, okay, yeah. It's just like, yeah, hey, what's up? Yes. Like, it's fine because. And then. And they've been together for over a decade now, and it's like, really working. And he still doesn't respond to his friends.

[B]

But, you know, the inspiration in that is you could be anxious and be in a relationship with someone who's avoidant. You can make it work if you use these tools.

[A]

Yeah, it's incredible. That's why it's so gratifying. That whole. The coaching. And I give examples of how I do it in real time. When people have fights. Yes. Like how you can do it in real time. I give. This whole last part of the last chapter is about sort of real time. Secure. Sort of secure priming. Like when. But. But also, even sometimes people come in. I've had couples like. I like. They. They bring in their, like, avoidant partner. They're starting off the beginning of the relationship. There's one particular example that I'm thinking about, and it's like, she. Like, he just. Again. And it's not always. Sometimes, for whatever reason, I'm thinking about an avoidant man and a more anxious woman, but sometimes it's the other way around. I have to make sure. I have to sort of clear that out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But the guy came in and he said, look, when you don't respond to her in the morning, and then she also needs a text at night. And I explained about the neurocircuitry and the surveillance. Everything that we talked about here, I explained it all out because I think it really helps to understand how our brain works. So it's not personal. It's like our brain really needs that. And it's like, oh, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can send a text in the morning. I can text. Send a text at night. A single session, like, maybe one or two sessions just did the trick. I never saw them again. Which is good. Which is beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say.

[A]

I'm glad.

[B]

That's beautiful. So they got to a place where they've created this secure environment.

[A]

Yeah. But it was easy. It's like. It's because it's not like, oh, I have to talk to her, like, call her and talk to her for hours each day. That's not what this system is about. Remember in that strange situation where I told you the child was playing with all the toys, and every once in a while he was looking back to see if the mom is there?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then he doesn't care about the mom. And that actually good relationships are where you actually don't really think about your partner hardly at all. Because it really. And that's a very important thing to understand about attachment and how it relates to. To the exploratory drive. There's a direct link because it's a way for us to feel safe and once our attachment, your circuitry is calm, then we engage in exploration. Like you see, in this strange situation, he plays with all the toys. So as adults, we don't play with those kind of toys anymore. But we work, we have careers, we parent, we have hobbies, we have friends. So it gives us permission to store, to sort of spread our wings and fly when we have that secure it's called an attachment lingo, that secure base. So actually, secure relationships are often boring.

[B]

Yes, they are.

[A]

They're boring.

[B]

Incredibly boring.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To the point where that's why I always joke is I say that they never work on tv.

[A]

Exactly. They never work on TV because there's no drama.

[B]

There's no drama at all. Join me and Dr. Amir Levine next week for the last episode in our series about attachment style. This.